S04.E03: Années Folles

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

You can never go back again. But if you do, bring a shovel.

Airing Sunday, July 10th, 2022.

[AimingforYoko]

I'd love to know what Stubbs has been up to in between not dusting Bernard.

What do Hale and co. want with Caleb? I mean he's just proven he's no mastermind. Hell, his daughter is more on the ball than he is.

[mjc570]

I thought Stubbs was supposed to be a security guy? He had no situational awareness whatsoever at the diner.

[Chris24601]

Okay, so the timelines are starting to sort themselves out.

Maeve/Caleb is clearly the earliest timeline… apparently giving us the story of the rise of the machines as Hale (she apparently no longer identifies as an Dolores-copy) is perfecting her technology to turn humanity into meat puppets.

Sidebar: on the importance of names - note that Maeve specifically comments that the Golden Age Dolores was calling herself Wyatt at the point being recreated… and in this season she’s being called Christina. /Sidebar

Bernard/Stubbs is clearly a later timeline; ballpark about 15 years given that the woman who picked them up is clearly a grownup Frankie (no spoilers here; it’s just THAT damnably obvious from the structure of the narrative) who’s out in the desert; probably on the site that used to be Golden Age world; looking for the weapon Maeve and Caleb just found and strongly suggesting that Caleb never actually makes it home to her and she grows up as part of a resistance to the Hosts.

What’s unclear is if Bernard’s timeline is concurrent with or still beyond Christina’s timeline. If concurrent then Hale has succeeded in her tests and has turned all of New York into a park where Hosts are playing with human lives, but probably in secret because there are clearly still humans who aren’t under her control at the diner and with the resistance.

My hunch though is that Christina is actually even further into the future after all humanity is enslaved. If so then Christina will prove to be an insert by Bernard into whatever system Hale is using to keep humans under the control of the narratives they create for them… probably a recreation from his memory just as this Bernard was a recreation from Dolores’ memories.

Thus the timeline structure is;

- seven years after season three, Maeve and Caleb uncover, but fail to stop Hale’s plan. Their primary narrative purpose is to reveal the extent of Hale’s plan as it’s unfolding. It also sets up that Frankie has been on the run from the Hosts and seeking to thwart them for basically her whole life.

- 12-20 years after that Bernard wakes up; things in the real world out in the desert are clearly run down, but people are still humans. They’re going to uncover the weapon (probably the prototype control system) and presumably try to find a way to counter it… which will probably require some sort of suicide mission but with the payoff that…

- at an indeterminate, possibly decades or even centuries, time in the future; Christina/Dolores is born (perhaps as a hybrid) or created within Hale’s NYC torture world equipped to be some sort of savior figure for mankind (and all the Hosts that Hale seems to have no problem essentially enslaving for her own ends).

At least that’s my present take.

[paigow]

Bernard is now Dr. Strange ... Caleb is the weapon buried in the sand and he looks more and more like this guy...

 

[LoveLeigh]

14 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

Okay, so the timelines are starting to sort themselves out.

Maeve/Caleb is clearly the earliest timeline… apparently giving us the story of the rise of the machines as Hale (she apparently no longer identifies as an Dolores-copy) is perfecting her technology to turn humanity into meat puppets.

Sidebar: on the importance of names - note that Maeve specifically comments that the Golden Age Dolores was calling herself Wyatt at the point being recreated… and in this season she’s being called Christina. /Sidebar

Bernard/Stubbs is clearly a later timeline; ballpark about 15 years given that the woman who picked them up is clearly a grownup Frankie (no spoilers here; it’s just THAT damnably obvious from the structure of the narrative) who’s out in the desert; probably on the site that used to be Golden Age world; looking for the weapon Maeve and Caleb just found and strongly suggesting that Caleb never actually makes it home to her and she grows up as part of a resistance to the Hosts.

What’s unclear is if Bernard’s timeline is concurrent with or still beyond Christina’s timeline. If concurrent then Hale has succeeded in her tests and has turned all of New York into a park where Hosts are playing with human lives, but probably in secret because there are clearly still humans who aren’t under her control at the diner and with the resistance.

My hunch though is that Christina is actually even further into the future after all humanity is enslaved. If so then Christina will prove to be an insert by Bernard into whatever system Hale is using to keep humans under the control of the narratives they create for them… probably a recreation from his memory just as this Bernard was a recreation from Dolores’ memories.

Thus the timeline structure is;

- seven years after season three, Maeve and Caleb uncover, but fail to stop Hale’s plan. Their primary narrative purpose is to reveal the extent of Hale’s plan as it’s unfolding. It also sets up that Frankie has been on the run from the Hosts and seeking to thwart them for basically her whole life.

- 12-20 years after that Bernard wakes up; things in the real world out in the desert are clearly run down, but people are still humans. They’re going to uncover the weapon (probably the prototype control system) and presumably try to find a way to counter it… which will probably require some sort of suicide mission but with the payoff that…

- at an indeterminate, possibly decades or even centuries, time in the future; Christina/Dolores is born (perhaps as a hybrid) or created within Hale’s NYC torture world equipped to be some sort of savior figure for mankind (and all the Hosts that Hale seems to have no problem essentially enslaving for her own ends).

At least that’s my present take.

Huh? And huh? What? I have average intelligence and I believe you 100% the only problem is I am too stupid to understand it. 

[Quilt Fairy]

Has anyone seen James Marsden?  As anybody?

[Chicago Redshirt]

3 hours ago, AimingforYoko said:

I'd love to know what Stubbs has been up to in between not dusting Bernard.

What do Hale and co. want with Caleb? I mean he's just proven he's no mastermind. Hell, his daughter is more on the ball than he is.

Caleb was the one who shut down Rehobeam (sp?), was close to Delores before she died, and then apparently was some sort of human freedom fighter for a while. I'm sure there's a lot of information she could want from him, if not just to torment him. 

3 hours ago, mjc570 said:

I thought Stubbs was supposed to be a security guy? He had no situational awareness whatsoever at the diner.

I don't think Stubbs was a particularly good security guy within the confines of Westworld even. Putting aside that he is probably experiencing some literal and metaphorical rust, since it's been at a minimum years since he performed those functions, he didn't really have a basis to think of the diner as anything beyond a diner or to know what to make of this woman. He also may just have given up on trying to figure things out since it"s clear Bernard has some form of otherworldly knowledge about what's going on.

2 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Has anyone seen James Marsden?  As anybody?

I thought that he-- or a lookalike -- popped up outside Christina's an episode or two ago.

[thuganomics85]

Great seeing Zahn McClarnon's character again in the "afterlife" that Bernard was visiting.  The episode with him front and center was easily the best one in season two.  Glad he's been getting other gigs (including headlining his own show with Dark Winds!), but it was nice to revisit him briefly.

Bernard and Stubbs continues to be the unlikely duo that I'm surprised how much I enjoy.  Jeffrey Wright and Diet Hemsworth (kidding, kidding!  It's just Luke!) have a fun rapport still.  Not sure what to make of them joining this Mad Max-like group led by Daniel Wu.  Except I totally agree that the woman is going to end up being a grown-up Frankie/Caleb's daughter.

Kind of love that Golden Age World is pretty much recycling the same plots from Westworld, because I totally believe that would actually happen in real life.  Plus, it was worth it to see all of Maeve's annoyed reactions to it: especially claiming she did it better (true!)

Caleb has now been taken over by the flies.  Not sure why Hale seems so determined to get him.

Man in Black has multiple copies of himself, now?

[aghst]

If Bernard and Stubbs are suppose to be a couple of decades after Maeve and Caleb, Stubbs should have aged a lot?

Or is Stubbs a host too?

Cant keep track, has Bernard always been a host, even in the pilot?

How long has the Indian guy been a host?

Host flies took over human minds.  Now it’s real flies infected by some disease that takes over humans and starts wars to destroy human civilization like the sight of NY burning?

Bernard learns that in the Sublime, 1 human year is like a millennium there and all eventualities have already been played out and only a very few results in humanity not being conquered or destroyed.  So how does Bernard pick a point to return to?  Time travel?

Multiple timelines are a poor narrative device, more about figuring out a puzzle than than telling a good, coherent story.

If Bernard fails, why wouldn’t he be able to try again over and over?

[Haleth]

As soon as Maeve and Caleb hit the street I could see they were visiting another version of original recipe WW.  It was funny how it was so much the same yet different.  I was as disappointed as Maeve with the new dime store Hector though.

Funny also, the shot of Stubbs enjoying his tuna melt while through the window we see Bernard beating the crap out of those guys.  (Stubbs is a host, right?)

I had to close my eyes at the end with the flies.  Gross.

11 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

the woman who picked them up is clearly a grownup Frankie

Wow!  That hadn't occurred to me!

11 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

Hosts are playing with human lives

Oh, yes!  The ultimate revenge for being the abused puppets of the humans for so long.  The flies eat into the human brains and can then be controlled by the hosts.  Thus Peter from Christina's storyline really was human but compelled to act out the narrative she wrote for him.

10 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Has anyone seen James Marsden?  As anybody?

Not since the first episode.

7 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Great seeing Zahn McClarnon's character again in the "afterlife" that Bernard was visiting.

Yes!  I love all the callbacks to the first season.

Enter Sandman is always great to hear. 

Edited July 11, 2022 by Haleth

[Chicago Redshirt]

3 hours ago, aghst said:

If Bernard and Stubbs are suppose to be a couple of decades after Maeve and Caleb, Stubbs should have aged a lot?

Or is Stubbs a host too?

Cant keep track, has Bernard always been a host, even in the pilot?

How long has the Indian guy been a host?

Host flies took over human minds.  Now it’s real flies infected by some disease that takes over humans and starts wars to destroy human civilization like the sight of NY burning?

Bernard learns that in the Sublime, 1 human year is like a millennium there and all eventualities have already been played out and only a very few results in humanity not being conquered or destroyed.  So how does Bernard pick a point to return to?  Time travel?

Multiple timelines are a poor narrative device, more about figuring out a puzzle than than telling a good, coherent story.

If Bernard fails, why wouldn’t he be able to try again over and over?

Stubbs is a host too. The Bernard we knew was from S1 was mostly a host. We did, I believe, see scenes of Real!Bernard interacting with Delores and having concerns about the Hosts becoming fully sentient and ultimately dying. 

The Native American guy was always a host.

I think we learned from this episode that the Hosts are infecting real flies with something that will make humans go crazy/be susceptible to their commands, rather than using host flies.

Presumably, Bernard spent as long as he needed/dared to in the Sublime to analyze the various paths and decide the best one to try to avert catastrophe. Was that after 10 millennia in the Sublime and 10 years passed in the real world? Longer? Shorter? We don't know.

But whenever he woke himself up, Bernard does not have the ability to time-travel in the real world. So if he fails, he fails, no undoing it in the real world. 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

Well, I'm hooked. Becoming more impatient for next week each time to see what happens next.

Stubbs eating contentedly while Bernard dispatched the two imposters in the parking lot low-key reminded me of Marcus (pre-amnesia Three) eating contentedly while Portia (pre-amnesia Two) dispatched the original Raza captain Shrike and his henchman Jasper in a flashback in the Dark Matter episode "Built Not Born" (even while they fought on the mess hall table). "I was rooting for ya!"

7 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Kind of love that Golden Age World is pretty much recycling the same plots from Westworld, because I totally believe that would actually happen in real life.  Plus, it was worth it to see all of Maeve's annoyed reactions to it: especially claiming she did it better (true!)

Man in Black has multiple copies of himself, now?

Yes, Maeve was us in those scenes.

We've only seen one William Host at a time.

[paigow]

18 hours ago, aghst said:

If Bernard fails, why wouldn’t he be able to try again over and over?

Looks like he had to choose the timeline most likely to succeed and is fully committed - no takebacks. Even though he always dies...

This is like the Nexus in Star Trek: Generations... Picard could go anywhere outside the Nexus but only once.

Edited July 12, 2022 by paigow

[MollyB]

3 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Presumably, Bernard spent as long as he needed/dared to in the Sublime to analyze the various paths and decide the best one to try to avert catastrophe.

Since he dies at the end of any path he takes, why not choose the one that gets him there in time to eliminate Hale before she develops mind-eating flies and a penchant for dismembering and freezing William?  Of course, that would shorten season four quite a bit.

4 hours ago, Haleth said:

I was as disappointed as Maeve with the new dime store Hector though.

You may have heard me screaming "Hell, no! I want the real Hector!" until I realized all the characters in the saloon were knock offs.  I hope RealHector shows up.

[BloomsburyRez]

47 minutes ago, MollyB said:

You may have heard me screaming "Hell, no! I want the real Hector!" until I realized all the characters in the saloon were knock offs.  I hope RealHector shows up.

When they were faking death to get in the building I was really hoping Felix & Sylvester would be there. Plus a Sizemore appearance at some point (as a host worker). 

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, MollyB said:

Since he dies at the end of any path he takes, why not choose the one that gets him there in time to eliminate Hale before she develops mind-eating flies and a penchant for dismembering and freezing William?  Of course, that would shorten season four quite a bit.

You may have heard me screaming "Hell, no! I want the real Hector!" until I realized all the characters in the saloon were knock offs.  I hope RealHector shows up.

It took time for Bernard to run through the gazillion possibilities of how things could play out, with every single variable touching off branching possibilities. Just of what has been shown so far, there's a series of branches depending on whether Stubbs says "You didn't even bring me a postcard," presumably a series of branches depending on whether Stubbs brings the shovel, whether Stubbs orders something besides pastrami/tuna melts, whether Bernard intervenes with the people who were going to meet Presumably!Adult!Frankie, how Bernard attempts to convince PAF to take them to the Condemned Area (or whatever it's called). And we're presumably not even very far in the plan to save the world. Going through all those possibilities is going to take a bit.

By the time he had enough data to figure out what to do, Bernard had no guarantee of, knowledge of, or control over what had gone on in actual reality. We can tell from the relatively thick layer of dust on him that it was years maybe even a decade or several.

All he could do is hope that he woke up in one where things were manageable, and hope that the simulations he went through in the Sublime are good enough for him to get to a sufficiently OK endpoint.  

RealHector is presumably dead dead, killed off last season. He was being held by Serrac and put in a simulated version of WWII World in an attempt to get Maeve to talk. Charlores crushed Hector's control unit, which suggests he's dead dead. Now it could be that Serrac secretly copied Hector's control unit or that someone would manage to recreate a version of Hector that looks, talks, and acts more like OG Hector rather than Brand X Hector, but I wouldn't get our hopes up.  

[Chris24601]

So, it seems people who actually slow-mo'd Bernard's visions in the opening revealed a couple of things and; as they were actually in the episode proper, even if for a moment; don't constitute spoilers;

- First, there is a shot of Golden Age World's street, but abandoned, covered in dust and overgrown... all but confirming that Bernard's timeline is well past Maeve/Caleb's.

- Second, in the clear shot of The Tower in the vision it is supporting a giant version of the sound generator used in the lab Maeve/Caleb to control the infected people.

- Also someone freeze-framed the displays and it noted that they were "Infrasound Control Trials" and one of the test subjects was the government guy Hale infected with flies last episode.

So, I'm going to guess what with the burning bush analogue (the Tree is the one Dolores went to whenever she discussed the future with Teddy) is both the burning branches symbolizing all the possible timelines that end in disaster; but is also a metaphorical motif of God appointing Moses to save his people from bondage in Egypt... implying Bernard's actions will lead people out of bondage, but also like Moses, not live to actually enter the Promised Land.

An interesting aspect of that too is that, in Christian tradition, Moses' saving of his people was a prefiguring of (and necessary setup for) the eventual salvation of all mankind through Jesus Christ... i.e. Bernard, who saves his people will pave the way for Christina to save everyone if they wanted to stick with the redemption narrative (which seems likely as the Big Bad is basically the Lord of the Flies who holds people in spiritual bondage to her whims).

How much beyond that basic point of Christina = Savior/Redeemer they intend to go though is an open question. If they wanted to go full bore into it then Hale will probably attempt to kill/destroy Christina only for her death/rebirth to be the mechanism that utterly defeats Hale and liberates the people... by turning the very instrument of torture/subjugation (Crucifixion/The Tower) that the Lords of This World (Rome/Hale and her minions) used to enforce their will into the means and symbol of Christ's eternal victory over death (possibly turning by the Infrasound generator against Hale somehow).

But I lean towards it being more of a Savior in broad strokes with motifs and imagery.

[Mr. R0b0t]

We shouldn't have to watch the creators of the show on the after show explanation to understand the show itself.  

Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.

[Chicago Redshirt]

26 minutes ago, Mr. R0b0t said:

We shouldn't have to watch the creators of the show on the after show explanation to understand the show itself.  

Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.

I tend to agree that we shouldn't have to do homework to enjoy/understand a TV show. But for the most part, the stuff is right there as you watch. Admittedly, if I were coming to WW for the first time and the notion of a show with different time periods being showed simultaneously, I might be a lot more lost/confused.

But the contextual clues are there for someone strictly watching the show to deduce that what's going on with Maeve/Caleb is in a different timeframe than what's going on with Christina which is going on in a different time frame than what's going on with Bernard/Stubbs.

The only real question is the order in which these events are happening. It seems to make the most sense to me that Maeve/Caleb is first. There's an argument that Bernard/Stubbs is second and Christina is third, and there's an argument for the other way. 

I for one am happy to speculate and read theories until at some point the show establishes what order these events are in (or shows me that these theories are wrong and really all these things are happening simultaneously despite evidence to the contrary.)

[RachelKM]

23 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

Thus the timeline structure is;

- seven years after season three, Maeve and Caleb uncover, but fail to stop Hale’s plan. Their primary narrative purpose is to reveal the extent of Hale’s plan as it’s unfolding. It also sets up that Frankie has been on the run from the Hosts and seeking to thwart them for basically her whole life.

- 12-20 years after that Bernard wakes up; things in the real world out in the desert are clearly run down, but people are still humans. They’re going to uncover the weapon (probably the prototype control system) and presumably try to find a way to counter it… which will probably require some sort of suicide mission but with the payoff that…

- at an indeterminate, possibly decades or even centuries, time in the future; Christina/Dolores is born (perhaps as a hybrid) or created within Hale’s NYC torture world equipped to be some sort of savior figure for mankind (and all the Hosts that Hale seems to have no problem essentially enslaving for her own ends).

At least that’s my present take.

I basically agree.  I especially think Bernard/Stubbs is after Maeve/Caleb. That hotel seemed more than 7 years dilapidated.

I do have questions, however, about the cars.  Assuming this is right, there seem to be a lot of gas powered, combustion engine cars in the Bernard/Stubbs scenes.   

Even in Season 3, there were a lot of what seemed to be electric, self-drive cars. Even seven years later, let alone 10 or 20, it would seem likely there would be very few gas powered cars overtime as eclectic kept getting cheaper and eventually the infrastructure for gas cars would be gone.  Stubbs still having his (I guess he had a battery available or started it every month or so... if that could work for decades) kinda tracks. But the other cars all being operator driven gas vehicles seems weird. 

[gatopretoNYC]

56 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

I do have questions, however, about the cars.  Assuming this is right, there seem to be a lot of gas powered, combustion engine cars in the Bernard/Stubbs scenes.   

Even in Season 3, there were a lot of what seemed to be electric, self-drive cars. Even seven years later, let alone 10 or 20, it would seem likely there would be very few gas powered cars overtime as eclectic kept getting cheaper and eventually the infrastructure for gas cars would be gone.  Stubbs still having his (I guess he had a battery available or started it every month or so... if that could work for decades) kinda tracks. But the other cars all being operator driven gas vehicles seems weird. 

I noticed that too. It seemed odd.

[Nashville]

On 7/10/2022 at 10:19 PM, Quilt Fairy said:

Has anyone seen James Marsden?  As anybody?

Marsden was in this episode, if only for a second or so.  
That can Maeve told Caleb not to pick up?  
Who’d you think did pick it up and hand it back to Dolores v2.0?  😉

Straight out of S1Ep1.

[Chris24601]

7 hours ago, RachelKM said:

I do have questions, however, about the cars.  Assuming this is right, there seem to be a lot of gas powered, combustion engine cars in the Bernard/Stubbs scenes.

My hunch in terms of story is that the less advanced cars along with the glitching sign at the diner are intended to show a technological backslide among the humans who aren’t under Hale’s control.

Another key point about the late model vehicles… many of them looked old enough that they wouldn’t have onboard computers in their engines (or at least not the modern ones that mechanics can connect to via wifi). Other than the glitchy sign, the diner was pretty analog… laminated paper menus, old juke box selector, etc. The point is, there seems to be a deliberate avoidance of advanced technology by the people there.

The exception to that is the Resistance. FutureFrankie’s jeep was all futured up, as were the bikes/helmets the others were using. But my guess is they’re skilled enough with tech to be able to handle whatever issues the civilians are trying to avoid by going low tech.

[GallwayGirl]

Now I want to see what the hosts. Worlds look like. Did they recreate their loops or now that they are free, did they create something completely different?

[Tachi Rocinante]

The "recycled plots" should have been 45-60 seconds of quick cuts with Maeve snark.  It took too long and became onerous. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

8 hours ago, Nashville said:

Marsden was in this episode, if only for a second or so.  
That can Maeve told Caleb not to pick up?  
Who’d you think did pick it up and hand it back to Dolores v2.0?  😉

Straight out of S1Ep1.

Huh...I thought that was just a Brand X version of him, just like we had Brand X versions of everyone else from Westworld. 

[aghst]

4 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

My hunch in terms of story is that the less advanced cars along with the glitching sign at the diner are intended to show a technological backslide among the humans who aren’t under Hale’s control.

Another key point about the late model vehicles… many of them looked old enough that they wouldn’t have onboard computers in their engines (or at least not the modern ones that mechanics can connect to via wifi). Other than the glitchy sign, the diner was pretty analog… laminated paper menus, old juke box selector, etc. The point is, there seems to be a deliberate avoidance of advanced technology by the people there.

The exception to that is the Resistance. FutureFrankie’s jeep was all futured up, as were the bikes/helmets the others were using. But my guess is they’re skilled enough with tech to be able to handle whatever issues the civilians are trying to avoid by going low tech.

All the "good guys" drove the retro vehicles.  You'd think gas would be scarce.  Also have to question how reliable they'd be.  I think they wanted to copy the Road Warrior esthetic.

As for the glitching sign, that looked like a digital display, to be thin and bright to be outside like that.  That would mean it either gets a signal to display the video or animation or it doesn't.  It would either display the video normally or be off.  There wouldn't be an analog state where the animation is altered.

I know it gives it a certain look, a certain character but it's not a good depiction of the technology.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

12 hours ago, Nashville said:

Marsden was in this episode, if only for a second or so.  
That can Maeve told Caleb not to pick up?  
Who’d you think did pick it up and hand it back to Dolores v2.0?  😉

Straight out of S1Ep1.

3 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Huh...I thought that was just a Brand X version of him, just like we had Brand X versions of everyone else from Westworld. 

Chicago Redshirt is correct, Temperance Teddy was played by James Joseph Pulido.

[Chris24601]

9 hours ago, GallwayGirl said:

Now I want to see what the hosts. Worlds look like. Did they recreate their loops or now that they are free, did they create something completely different?

I imagine they’re pretty unrecognizable by this point. They were uploaded at the end of season two which was probably a year before the Rehoboam riots when Bernard went in… so already a thousand years had passed for the Hosts… Bernard then spent probably at least two decades running all the possible timelines… during which 20,000 more years had passed for the hosts without human input (nor much with each other if each one had created their own personal paradise).

 It reminds me a bit of what someone once said about not fearing the AI apocalypse because any AI’s interests would likely be so tangential to our own that we might never realized they’d rebelled (i.e. keep the power on and let me engage in my true passion of calculating all the decimals of Pi and I’ll run your silly meat management programs for you on my secondary processors).

That’s probably where the Hosts inside the Sublime are at at this point. So utterly alien that they were only able to communicate with Bernard because they have perfect memories of what such conversations look like. They’re probably more akin to the nonlinear time explanations for God… creating a world in four dimensions with their own fifth dimension they use to observe the whole construct from beginning to end and so observe the effects of any changes they make at one end of the time dimension have upon the rest of the 4D structure.

Basically, each one of them became a god of their own virtual universe.

[Zaffy]

On 7/11/2022 at 9:25 AM, thuganomics85 said:

Great seeing Zahn McClarnon's character again in the "afterlife" that Bernard was visiting.  The episode with him front and center was easily the best one in season two.

imho, best episode of the whole series so far.

[RachelKM]

9 hours ago, aghst said:

All the "good guys" drove the retro vehicles.  You'd think gas would be scarce.  Also have to question how reliable they'd be.  I think they wanted to copy the Road Warrior esthetic.

As for the glitching sign, that looked like a digital display, to be thin and bright to be outside like that.  That would mean it either gets a signal to display the video or animation or it doesn't.  It would either display the video normally or be off.  There wouldn't be an analog state where the animation is altered.

I know it gives it a certain look, a certain character but it's not a good depiction of the technology.

Yes. Thank you.  This is what I was thinking.  It's not that there are not reasons to want to use analog devices when advanced AI are a potential threat. It's that I cannot imagine how a 1970s boat of a car still runs and on what?  It's got to be over 100 years old. Even if we assume the creation of Westworld depicted in S1 was intended as very near future, it ran for at least 40 years by the time of the massacre (the aging of Anthony Hopkin's character and William). That would make the car nearly 100 years old right there.  Add the time Bernard was Dr. Strange-ing his way through possible time lines and we're looking at 110-120 years at least 90 of which would be before there was a strong motivation for its maintenance outside of antique vehicle enthusiasts and conspiracy driven luddites. 

The infrastructure for fuel would be only one problem. The correct type of batteries and manufacture of compatible parts would be bonkers logistically.  Annnnnnd I likely just thought bout it more than the show did. I'm gonna go pour a glass of wine and start letting this go so I can enjoy next week.  The show is fun.

[BlackberryJam]

I seem to care about individual scenes so much more than the overall plot. What a relief not to have to suffer through Chrislores/Doltina this episode. 

Loved all of the scenes with Akecheta. Zahn McClarnon is wonderful. 

I love watching Thandiwe Newton deliver one-liners, but dear GOD can we please kill off Caleb and everyone associated with him? I do not care about Frankie no matter how adorable she is. I didn't care about Maeve's daughter either. In fact, I'd be happier if this show had no characters under 30. It's not a kid show/kid centered show and all I was thinking when Caleb went to bust not-Frankie out of her box was "Oh great, let's put a child actor in a scene where she's going to pretend to kill herself while she's surrounded by other glass boxes of people who've just killed themselves." I do NOT want to see children in what I view as a very adult show. They aren't needed. They do nothing to move the plot. Sub out cute daughter for beautiful wife and there would be essentially no change to the plot, except that we wouldn't be "shocked" later on by the Frankie reveal.

Anyway, I loved watching Stubbs eat his tuna melt, even though tuna melts are disgusting. He just looked happy for that ten minutes and that made me happy. Bernard going all terminator did little for me. 

[MollyB]

52 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

Bernard going all terminator did little for me. 

I was glad he was finally doing something besides looking confused and peering over his glasses and polishing his glasses and sitting looking confused.  He just seemed so passive in the first three seasons that I was not surprised that he spent all those years sitting on a bed. 

The glasses drive me over the edge a bit.  Flashbacks of Arnold with his son don't show him wearing them all the time.  Ford mentioned that the polishing was Arnold's way of thinking but I think Ford left them in the Bernard construct too long.

[tennisgurl]

I cracked up at all of Maeve's annoyed reactions to the lack of changes in the script, they really never have bothered to change any of Lee's old scripts. Talk about being stuck in the loop. I especially loved when Maeve was like "hell no" when Caleb almost interested with Golden Age Dolorous. The new park actually incorporating the slaughter at Westworld as an easter egg game is so awful, its almost impressive. I actually liked this one, seeing the new park hitting all the same beats over and over was funny, realistic, and continues the shows theme of people being stuck in the same cycles, hosts and humans. Plus Maeve playing audience surrogate as we all roll our eyes at the obviously lazy script was the most fun this show has been since season one. Plus, jazz age Enter Sandman!

Caleb's daughter might be the smartest person in the show, everyone else keeps ignoring the blatantly obvious, like Bernard kicking the shit out of the guys by the diner. She was certainly quick to realize that the guy was a robot, even before she found the body. 

It seems like the plan involves mind controlling humans, and that's how they're going to take over? Caleb's fake daughter opening her head up is the creepiest thing this show has done in ages, so kudos to them I suppose.

Its always great to see Zahn McClarnon again, taking a break from headlining his own show to show up here and be awesome for a scene.

Edited July 13, 2022 by tennisgurl

[enchantingmonkey]

I loved Maeve's line about how the behavioral training lessons didn't stick with her, as she's walking right into Halores' trap.  

The scenes with the low droning noises, static sounds and watching the humans/hosts (?) blow their brains out were some of the most unsettling scenes I've seen on this show.  I don't even care about Caleb, and I was horrified for him as he frantically tried to enter "Frankie's" glass room.  

I think the only reason I enjoyed the scenes with the Rebellion in the scorched Earth future was because they reminded me of the world of Fury Road, a film that I loved.  But hey, whatever helps.

For some reason I really enjoyed ImpostorDolores, especially the look on her face as she came charging down the hall while Maeve and Caleb were entering the elevator.  I'd love it if the Show did an extra scene with that actress doing her version of Dolores' opening monologue from Episode 1 of the series.  

Edited July 15, 2022 by enchantingmonkey

[Frozendiva]

I am still confused about the timelines, but did enjoy 'Call Me' from Blondie. 

[Notwisconsin]

This is more "idiot plotting." You know, in order for the plot to work, everyone has to be an idiot. For example Caleb and his faux daughter.

[arc]

Call me a sucker, but I greatly enjoyed the reveal that Delos had incorporated the Wyatt malfunction into a version of the narrative as an Easter Egg where advance players could go into a /fake version/ of the park underworld, staffed by hosts playing humans who work on regular hosts... or possibly hosts playing hosts.

I've never bought that a supercomputer could accurately predict the future that well. Even modern day supercomputers can't predict the weather past two weeks or so, because small perturbances (or even just numerical inaccuracy) piles up due to chaos theory. I guess we have to set that aside since it was the entire driving force of s3, but I could never fully suspend my disbelief, and now Bernard in the Sublime basically did that same kind of prediction??? Ughhhhh. (Also, wasn't the whole thing about human re-creations as hosts that they could work inside a virtual reality, but were usually unstable in the real world because the real world can't be fully simulated?)

Akecheta's nonchalance about the outside/real world kind of doesn't make sense considering the Sublime requires real-world resources (a datacenter and a generator to power it) and doesn't seem to have redundant distributed servers. Robot Heaven is nice, but nice enough to ignore that the outside world going to hell might break Robot Heaven as collateral damage?

Making Westworld was one thing. (and Shogun World and War World and the Raj were probably equally rural/wild with small villages.) Making Prohibition-era Chicago, even a cut-down version*, is several orders of magnitude more ambitious.

* the 2018 Spider-Man game has a truly incredible digital recreation of Manhattan, but if you look closely, a lot of it is geographically compressed -- multiple blocks are compressed into one, esp anywhere there isn't a landmark building.

I liked that the safe heist was scored to a jazzy "Enter Sandman" instead of another take on "Paint It Black".

WHERE DID THE DESERT LASERS COME FROM?

[Noneofyourbusiness]

6 hours ago, arc said:

Call me a sucker, but I greatly enjoyed the reveal that Delos had incorporated the Wyatt malfunction into a version of the narrative as an Easter Egg where advanced players could go into a /fake version/ of the park underworld, staffed by hosts playing humans who work on regular hosts... or possibly hosts playing hosts.

Yes, that's the sort of thing that those guests would enjoy.

[Joimiaroxeu]

Ditto comments upthread, it was nice to see Zahn McClarnon again.

They just recreate the wild west bordello in the Golden Age and don't even have to change the dialogue. That's either sad or cynical.

Those ragtime versions of rock songs being played in the speakeasy were funny.

The Westworld Massacre game is the Easter egg. How meta.

Wonder why Caleb thought he could trust Carver to keep his family safe? Had he not met the guy before? I'm confused as to when real Carver became host Carver but it probably doesn't matter now unless he comes back as another host later.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

1 hour ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Wonder why Caleb thought he could trust Carver to keep his family safe? Had he not met the guy before? I'm confused as to when real Carver became host Carver but it probably doesn't matter now unless he comes back as another host later.

He was an old war buddy, from the war against Rehoboam if not earlier. He was replaced very recently, hence the dead body of real Carver on the premises. It happened after he promised to play with Frankie's bear, and before he returned not knowing what she was talking about and with a bloodstain on the bear.

Edited July 24, 2022 by Noneofyourbusiness

[Caz]

On 7/10/2022 at 10:55 PM, LoveLeigh said:

Huh? And huh? What? I have average intelligence and I believe you 100% the only problem is I am too stupid to understand it. 

Agreed!  Me too!  :D

[arc]

On 7/11/2022 at 7:26 PM, RachelKM said:

eventually the infrastructure for gas cars would be gone.

One thing many post-apocalyptic movies gets wrong is the idea that the few remnants of humanity left can scavenge old gasoline for at least the rest of their lives. They can't! Gasoline oxidizes. Even with fuel stabilizers and airtight storage, it can't possibly last for years and years.

[blackwing]

I am racing to watch Season 4 before it disappears from the Max.  Just finished this episode.  I am liking season 4 better than season 3, but I think that's mostly because I love seeing the Roaring 20s World.  Thandiwe looks simply exquisite in her flapper garb.  Now I am sad the series has been cancelled, would have loved future seasons giving us glimpses of Roman World, Medieval World, Egyptian World, American Revolution World, 80s World, etc.

I am just as confused as ever.  I shouldn't have to read recaps to understand what is going on.

On 7/10/2022 at 9:38 PM, Chris24601 said:

Okay, so the timelines are starting to sort themselves out.

Maeve/Caleb is clearly the earliest timeline… apparently giving us the story of the rise of the machines as Hale (she apparently no longer identifies as an Dolores-copy) is perfecting her technology to turn humanity into meat puppets.

Sidebar: on the importance of names - note that Maeve specifically comments that the Golden Age Dolores was calling herself Wyatt at the point being recreated… and in this season she’s being called Christina. /Sidebar

Bernard/Stubbs is clearly a later timeline; ballpark about 15 years given that the woman who picked them up is clearly a grownup Frankie (no spoilers here; it’s just THAT damnably obvious from the structure of the narrative) who’s out in the desert; probably on the site that used to be Golden Age world; looking for the weapon Maeve and Caleb just found and strongly suggesting that Caleb never actually makes it home to her and she grows up as part of a resistance to the Hosts.

What’s unclear is if Bernard’s timeline is concurrent with or still beyond Christina’s timeline. If concurrent then Hale has succeeded in her tests and has turned all of New York into a park where Hosts are playing with human lives, but probably in secret because there are clearly still humans who aren’t under her control at the diner and with the resistance.

My hunch though is that Christina is actually even further into the future after all humanity is enslaved. If so then Christina will prove to be an insert by Bernard into whatever system Hale is using to keep humans under the control of the narratives they create for them… probably a recreation from his memory just as this Bernard was a recreation from Dolores’ memories.

Thus the timeline structure is;

- seven years after season three, Maeve and Caleb uncover, but fail to stop Hale’s plan. Their primary narrative purpose is to reveal the extent of Hale’s plan as it’s unfolding. It also sets up that Frankie has been on the run from the Hosts and seeking to thwart them for basically her whole life.

- 12-20 years after that Bernard wakes up; things in the real world out in the desert are clearly run down, but people are still humans. They’re going to uncover the weapon (probably the prototype control system) and presumably try to find a way to counter it… which will probably require some sort of suicide mission but with the payoff that…

- at an indeterminate, possibly decades or even centuries, time in the future; Christina/Dolores is born (perhaps as a hybrid) or created within Hale’s NYC torture world equipped to be some sort of savior figure for mankind (and all the Hosts that Hale seems to have no problem essentially enslaving for her own ends).

At least that’s my present take.

On 7/10/2022 at 9:55 PM, LoveLeigh said:

Huh? And huh? What? I have average intelligence and I believe you 100% the only problem is I am too stupid to understand it. 

I'm with the second comment.  I don't doubt that we are seeing two different timelines (wouldn't be the first time the show has done this), I just don't have the capacity to understand them.

But how can the lady that drove Bernard and Stubbs be Frankie all grown up?  Young Frankie has darker skin and big saucer eyes.  This woman is a lot lighter and has squintier eyes.  Did she undergo some Michael Jacksonish bleaching in the intervening years?

Edited December 16, 2022 by blackwing