S03.E07: Here Comes A Candle To Light You To Bed

[Tachi Rocinante]

• Annie, are your fingers broken? You can't text the dangers to Hughie??
• Since MM is far removed from the comic character, they should have just given him a different name altogether.  A non-supe nicknamed "Mother's Milk" is fucking stupid.
• If Soldier Boy is such an indestructible badass, why didn't he storm Normandy on D-Day? The Kent State reference made zero sense, considering two of the victims were walking to class and not part of the protest.
• Paul Reiser keeps killing it.

[MAK]

55 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I didn't read the comics, so I don't know the "real" story. 

I haven't read them either, just synopses to get background. But if, in the show, SB was their first experiment, they would want someone competent, someone who would follow orders, and someone who would respect the chain of command. Not a leader.

[ahrtee]

9 minutes ago, MAK said:

I haven't read them either, just synopses to get background. But if, in the show, SB was their first experiment, they would want someone competent, someone who would follow orders, and someone who would respect the chain of command. Not a leader.

That was sort of my point.  He was the leader (or frontman) of the Payback team, but was also supposed to follow (Vought's) orders, and when he began believing his own hype, took over what the team did and didn't follow orders any more, he had to go.  (And, unlike HL, someone did find a weapon to use against him.)  

Edited July 1, 2022 by ahrtee

[Ohiopirate02]

46 minutes ago, Tachi Rocinante said:

• Annie, are your fingers broken? You can't text the dangers to Hughie??
• Since MM is far removed from the comic character, they should have just given him a different name altogether.  A non-supe nicknamed "Mother's Milk" is fucking stupid.
• If Soldier Boy is such an indestructible badass, why didn't he storm Normandy on D-Day? The Kent State reference made zero sense, considering two of the victims were walking to class and not part of the protest.
• Paul Reiser keeps killing it.

Hughie's phone is in the pair of pants he left behind in Mindstorm's cabin when he teleported.  

The only way that Kent State reference makes any sense is if the writers are trying to show SB is a shit soldier.  Which I don't completely buy because why.  I don't see how it adds to either the story or the character at this point.  The Dealey Plaza reference OTHO does make sense knowing the conspiracies surrounding the Kennedy Assassination and what we know about Vought.  I'm scratching my head thinking why would Vought send SB to Northeastern Ohio to quell some rowdy undergrads who's only crimes at that point was to symbolically burn down an empty building and some light property damage downtown (which wouldn't have happened if the town's mayor and police chief didn't overreact and let the students enjoy their Saturday night drinking).

[Bergamot]

1 hour ago, Tachi Rocinante said:

If Soldier Boy is such an indestructible badass, why didn't he storm Normandy on D-Day?

From what the Legend says, Soldier Boy was used instead for a “photo op” afterwards of the landing on D-Day. It is not explained why. Maybe, as @ahrtee suggested, he was not yet “Soldier Boy” on June 6th, but was just there as a regular human soldier. Or maybe, as one of America’s first Supes, he was so new that Vought wasn’t sure he was ready to be tested in battle, or didn’t want to risk losing him. (We don’t know exactly when Soldier Boy was created, as far as I know; only that Frederick Vought defected to the Allies sometime in 1944.) Maybe they decided that as their first Supe he would be used primarily for propaganda purposes, (we see one of his WWII newsreels), which of course is not an unimportant tool in waging a war.

Or maybe it had to do with something else, something which has been a continuing story in the series. It appears that since the 1950s, Vought and Stan Edgar have been trying to bring about the incorporation of Supes into the American military – Nicaragua was supposedly a trial run for this –  but for some reason it seems that the military does not want them.

Remember the meeting between Edgar and Robert Singer at the start of Season 2, where they were discussing this? Singer brings up a couple of enormous sticking points. “When they’re in actual combat, whom exactly do your heroes report to?” he asks. Edgar says, “Same person as always. Me.” Singer then wants to clarify the projected figures on collateral damage, asking, ”Exactly what casualty allowance are we looking at here?” Edgar’s answer: 34%. No wonder the military does not want Supes in combat!

Maybe the random examples that the Legend gives of instances where Soldier Boy "saw action" (which I agree don't make much sense) are supposed to show Edgar trying out various ways that the Supes could be deployed, since the military doesn't want them. What can Supes be used for? Assisting the police (Birmingham), assisting the National Guard (Kent State), assisting the Secret Service (Dealey Plaza)..... And every time, it ends in complete disaster. No wonder Edgar wants to get Vought out of the superhero business and  concentrate instead on being a pharmaceutical company.
 

Edited July 1, 2022 by Bergamot

[tennisgurl]

Jensen certainly did not lie to us, Soldier Boy is definitely a massive asshole. Its weird not liking a character played by Jensen though, which is probably why they really doubled down on him being a total dick. I guess that's why his team were quick to turn on him, although I would still say that forty years of torture is still not something anyone deserves. I do tilt my head on his actual deeds all being fake, we've seen him show actual fighting skills, how did he get those? Did he have training but it was all just for hypothetical use? I would have preferred if he really did do a lot of the things he said he did, like storming the beaches at Normandy, but was also a huge dick who was awful to his team and girlfriend, it makes for a more nuanced story. People that do heroic or impressive things can still be terrible, having him be a fake as well as a bad guy seems like something of a wasted opportunity for a more interesting character. Its a bit like what they did with Stormfront, she started out ambiguous to an extent, but then was revealed to be totally evil being a literal Nazi and all. 

This season has been really good, but all of these subplots are exhausting and half of them only seem tangentially connected to each other. MM and his family, Frenchie dealing with his past, Kimiko and her powers, Butcher and Hughie taking V, everything with Starlight, and that's just a couple of the subplots. There is so much going on that I feel like a lot of the plots aren't getting the time they need.

The flashbacks to Butcher's life were really interesting, you can really see how he became the man he is today, which just made him deciding to lie to Hughie about the V even worse. Hughie might be making bad choices now, but he is still Hughie enough to want to save Butcher and is clearly getting nervous about what all is happening, but now he might be in real trouble. 

Does anyone sometimes feel like this show's attitude towards sex is a bit...puritanical? Granted, a lot of the sex shown to be bad is because it hurts people, isn't consensual, or involves icky stuff like bestiality, but it can sometimes feel like the show is saying that any sex beyond missionary between two happily coupled people is weird, deranged, and wrong.

[ahrtee]

18 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Does anyone sometimes feel like this show's attitude towards sex is a bit...puritanical? Granted, a lot of the sex shown to be bad is because it hurts people, isn't consensual, or involves icky stuff like bestiality,

Is it considered bestiality if it's with a mollusk?😕

[tennisgurl]

3 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Is it considered bestiality if it's with a mollusk?😕

The questions this show makes us ponder…

[ahrtee]

Of course, it *is* consensual, so maybe it's not too bad?

[GustavMahler]

When the soap opera trope was dropped at the end, I was expecting to hear the music from “As The World Turns” during the end credits….

[peridot]

I was looking forward to the Deep screwing up his interview, but that may be for the finale.  The bestiality this season is pretty gross!  When the tentacle was on his wife's leg, I was about to turn away.  I'm glad she got the hell out of there, I hope she's gone for good.

I'm really hoping that Ashley is exposed and ruined.  I hate seeing the bad guys constantly win.

The animated scenes with Noir were pretty messed up.  I thought Soldier Boy caused his illness, but then it seems he paralyzed another kid when he was 9.  It seems he's always been ill if he's been imagining his "friends" for so long.  The brutality of Soldier Boy beating the animated Noir and MindStorm was gruesome. 

I was taken aback when Homelander just nonchalantly mentioned that he would harvest Maeve's eggs.  I hope she gets away from that psycho.

[CUfan]

19 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

Glad to see that Maeve is still around and I'm wondering if she and Noir will join the fight against Homelander and Soldier Boy in the finale.

I have a feeling that next week we will find out that Maeve is pregnant with Butcher's baby. 

This season is fantastic and I'm sad it's almost over. 

[Castiels Cat]

4 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Is he a badass marksman though?  Because all the reading I have done about the events of May 4, 1970 say the side Soldier Boy would have been on was a giant clusterfuck and none of the four who died that day could ever been considered ringleaders. 

What reading on the side... it's pretty clear that this is not the SB from the comics. They reworked the characters for the story that they wanted to tell.

The Noir/HL dynamic is substantially different.

There is some pretty deep dark father stuff happening especially in real time between Butcher and Hughie.

Bringing up Kent State suggests SB's temper was the issue or maybe his paranoia that they were tampered with by Mindwhatever...

Dealey Plaza was Kennedy's assassination which suggests he was a top notch assassin and marksman; it's indicating he's the second shooter and the one that actually did the kill shot.

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

Jensen certainly did not lie to us, Soldier Boy is definitely a massive asshole. Its weird not liking a character played by Jensen though, which is probably why they really doubled down on him being a total dick. I guess that's why his team were quick to turn on him, although I would still say that forty years of torture is still not something anyone deserves. I do tilt my head on his actual deeds all being fake, we've seen him show actual fighting skills, how did he get those? Did he have training but it was all just for hypothetical use? I would have preferred if he really did do a lot of the things he said he did, like storming the beaches at Normandy, but was also a huge dick who was awful to his team and girlfriend, it makes for a more nuanced story. People that do heroic or impressive things can still be terrible, having him be a fake as well as a bad guy seems like something of a wasted opportunity for a more interesting character. Its a bit like what they did with Stormfront, she started out ambiguous to an extent, but then was revealed to be totally evil being a literal Nazi and all. 

This season has been really good, but all of these subplots are exhausting and half of them only seem tangentially connected to each other. MM and his family, Frenchie dealing with his past, Kimiko and her powers, Butcher and Hughie taking V, everything with Starlight, and that's just a couple of the subplots. There is so much going on that I feel like a lot of the plots aren't getting the time they need.

The flashbacks to Butcher's life were really interesting, you can really see how he became the man he is today, which just made him deciding to lie to Hughie about the V even worse. Hughie might be making bad choices now, but he is still Hughie enough to want to save Butcher and is clearly getting nervous about what all is happening, but now he might be in real trouble. 

Does anyone sometimes feel like this show's attitude towards sex is a bit...puritanical? Granted, a lot of the sex shown to be bad is because it hurts people, isn't consensual, or involves icky stuff like bestiality, but it can sometimes feel like the show is saying that any sex beyond missionary between two happily coupled people is weird, deranged, and wrong.

He escaped Russia, took out 3 KGB and made it to us without help. He has skills.

He was capable of taking out Payback on his own. He was smart enough to recognize that the Boys were useful: they are supplying him with what he needs and wants.

[Castiels Cat]

9 hours ago, Myrelle said:

It doesn't mean that he is either, though.

It is jarring seeing him play someone who seems to be so morally corrupt, but I have to hand it to Mr. Ackles for being brave enough to try his hand at a complete turnaround  character from the last one he played and for over 15 years!

And the reviews for him seem to indicate he has once again succeeded at capturing some kind of lightning in a bottle already. So more power to him for that. The comic fans seem to have embraced him even more now that there's the connection with Homelander.

But I can't get past the feeling that on some level, Soldier Boy likes both Butcher and Hughie even after this episode, so my miniscule hope is that he'll double cross Homelander for Butcher, but it's miniscule because I think it's far more likely that Homelander will double cross his daddy because I still feel that Homelander is relatively worse than his daddy, in most ways. 

The bolded part rankles because I hoped for more about his childhood/pre compound V days, but with so many characters to write for in just 8 episodes, it doesn't seem likely we'll get that now, nor his POV on what happened in Nicaragua so he's had to do a lot with the character in very little time and with very little fleshing out through the writing. 

That he might be conpletely losing his mind is perhaps the most interesting aspect of the character for me right now.

So I guess this is somewhat how the Homelander fandom feels too.

It's all so interesting to me. I just don't see how they're going to let this all go in a truly satisfying manner or way in just one episode.

It seems like a cliffhanger is imminent and even called for, IMO.

They did a time jump at the beginning of this season though, so we'll see, I guess.

I agree that there's a lot unknown about the character. 

[Quickbeam]

I can’t help it, I love every minute with The Deep. Those bits are so funny and yet, sort of sweet in a kink way. I’m always happy when we get some outrageous Deep action.

[Glade]

Soldier Boy was just a dumb, entitled cheerleader for American war crimes, more likely to party with nazi's like Liberty than fight them; like father, like son.  He and Homelander are both narcissistic bullies who abused and manipulated their "teams," especially minorities and the women they chose to be their trophy pieces against their will, into turning on them.  SB is complete trash and I definitely side with the supes who bought themselves a few decades of peace by collaborating with Vought to send him off.  Unfortunately it sounds like SB/Homelander are going to team up and kidnap Ryan to turn Vought into their personal dynastic empire.

[Wizardpatch]

It really takes me out of the show whenever they focus on MM's homelife. How does his ex-wife go from marrying a Black Panther idolizing strong guy to a goofy looking white nerd who seems to hate every liberal bogeyman out there.

[Morrigan2575]

I like 99% of this episode but they did something at the end that has me really worried about this season/show. 

I could be over reacting but, I really thought this season was ramping up to be a massive game changer and by the end of this episode I felt like it was all a lie.

Not sure if I'm making sense but, we went on this long journey with Butcher and he really seemed to come out of it in a better space and yet bamn back to being Butcher. We had Hughie have this emotional revelation about his actions and his whole fucked up head space with the Temp V and then bamn back to OK let's do more V.  They did the same thing with Kimiko and A Train

I can't help but feel like this season is just going to end with no change/no consequences. Just a giant reset back to the status quo...like they're afraid to take risks and chances and follow through.

I hope I'm wrong. I hope I'm over reacting.

Oh and I really don't care about Deep's sordid love life. 

[MrWhyt]

23 hours ago, Boadicea said:

And exactly what was that with the priest and the nun? Were they supposed to be working for Vought?

Soldier Boy explicitly said that they were brainwashed by Mindstorm.

[Castiels Cat]

10 hours ago, Wizardpatch said:

It really takes me out of the show whenever they focus on MM's homelife. How does his ex-wife go from marrying a Black Panther idolizing strong guy to a goofy looking white nerd who seems to hate every liberal bogeyman out there.

MM has serious anger management issues, violent outbursts and disruptive ocd. 

His storyline was the mirror to SB's punches and all ironically.

She went to the opposite end of the spectrum.

[iMonrey]

I wasn't crazy about this one. I'm not a fan of the fever dream gimmick, I think it is an over-used narrative device in genre shows, although it has permeated other types of shows as well. Butcher spent the better part of the episode locked into a guilt-ridden nightmare and Black Noire spent the entire episode talking to cartoon characters while also reliving his difficult memories. They really should have picked one or the other, and separated these scenes into two different episodes. It was all a bit much.

I also still feel like the Vought-as-Fox-News metaphors are a little too on the nose. I watch shows like this to escape today's political climate, not to dwell in it.

Also very disappointed in the twist of Soldier Boy being Homelander's father. I was hoping we were leading up to some sort of comeuppance for Homelander but it doesn't look like it.

Quote

 I can't help but feel like this season is just going to end with no change/no consequences. Just a giant reset back to the status quo...like they're afraid to take risks and chances and follow through.

Agreed, that's exactly how I felt about the ending. I was looking forward to the ultimate battle between Soldier Boy and Homelander - not a team-up. I felt cheated last week when Homelander managed to escape; apparently that's as close as I'm going to get.

Quote

This season has been really good, but all of these subplots are exhausting and half of them only seem tangentially connected to each other. MM and his family, Frenchie dealing with his past, Kimiko and her powers, Butcher and Hughie taking V, everything with Starlight, and that's just a couple of the subplots. There is so much going on that I feel like a lot of the plots aren't getting the time they need.

Yeah, and don't forget about Victoria shooting up her daughter with V, and Edgar and wherever he is now. Lots of dangling plot threads here.

[Smad]

I'd love to know if Maeve is just biding her time for the right moment to escape. Because that cell does not look like it could hold her. There is glass in the middle of the door for crying out loud. And the guards are puny humans it seems. So even if the walls are too thick to punch through and the door made of such thick metal she can't just punch the door out...punch through the glass. Vought's prison designs are really stupid, first there was Annie's last Season and now this one.

[FlickChick]

Two thoughts on different ends of the spectrum. First, I think that The Deep's scenes are meant to be OTT and possibly humorous breaks in the action and that is probably the only reason the character is still on. Secondly, sadly, I wonder where they're going with Maeve and Homelander's threat to harvest her eggs. Because, I think that she would find a way to kill herself before letting him do that to her. In fact, when we saw the suicide warning at the beginning of the episode, then saw the threatening scene with Maeve/Homelander, I was afraid that was what the warning was about. I do like the spec that Maeve might be pregnant  with Butcher's child, as long as that story gets to play out. Also, count me in with those who think that 8 episodes in a season is entirely too few to play out so many characters' stories.

[MAK]

On 7/2/2022 at 3:15 AM, tennisgurl said:

There is so much going on that I feel like a lot of the plots aren't getting the time they need.

IA, I wonder how they are going to be able to wrap up all these up in the last episode. Hopefully they at least set them up, for S4. 

On 7/2/2022 at 6:41 AM, Morrigan2575 said:

I can't help but feel like this season is just going to end with no change/no consequences. Just a giant reset back to the status quo...like they're afraid to take risks and chances and follow through.

I hope I'm wrong.

I hope you're wrong too.

[Myrelle]

On 6/30/2022 at 10:41 PM, DeeDee79 said:

Glad to see that Maeve is still around and I'm wondering if she and Noir will join the fight against Homelander and Soldier Boy in the finale

On 6/30/2022 at 10:41 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

Frenchie seems to have figured out why the Halothane didn't work on him, so I'm guessing it will be back to the cryochamber for him.

Knowing Kripke's writing, these were the two biggest red flags in the episode for me.

Two things I've dreaded from the beginning of the Soldier Boy storyline were that Kripke would just simply go back to the same old wells to get rid of him if JA isn't coming back for S4-those being A) he either goes back to the cryo chamber or B)he gets a group stomp down or something similar to what Stormfront was given at the end of S2.

I would rather they just kill him off outright rather than either of those two things. 

The character has been built up to be as strong as Homelander or at least comparable in that regard, so even if everyone and their mother goes up against him in the finale, he better inflict some heavy casualties on them on his way out or the big build up and set up was for nothing, AFAIC, and Kripke remains mediocre in my eyes. 

The Noir business was the biggest red flag for me.

It's like with one scene the full intent was to turn that character into nothing more than just a poor little woobie who SB abused into becoming a heinous monster with apparently no choice in that regard. Bah. 

I hope Kripke has something better up his sleeve than it feels like to me.

The silver lining is that IF Soldier Boy and Homelander do join forces, it should be that much harder to take either one of them down, even singularly.

Edited July 3, 2022 by Myrelle

[Affogato]

21 hours ago, FlickChick said:

Two thoughts on different ends of the spectrum. First, I think that The Deep's scenes are meant to be OTT and possibly humorous breaks in the action and that is probably the only reason the character is still on. Secondly, sadly, I wonder where they're going with Maeve and Homelander's threat to harvest her eggs. Because, I think that she would find a way to kill herself before letting him do that to her. In fact, when we saw the suicide warning at the beginning of the episode, then saw the threatening scene with Maeve/Homelander, I was afraid that was what the warning was about. I do like the spec that Maeve might be pregnant  with Butcher's child, as long as that story gets to play out. Also, count me in with those who think that 8 episodes in a season is entirely too few to play out so many characters' stories.

Well, Kevin's relationships with the Octopi are the only relatable and redeeming part of his character. We have to like him to some extent for this to work, and he is clearly tender, respectful and loving to his little Cephalopod lovers.

Someone is going to do a killer cosplay of that Herogasm outfit, too!

I think the wife leaving over this proposition will cause problems because I think she/the church is the real member of the Seven and the Deep is just the front. So if he gets rid of his wife, he is in trouble. That to me would be a plot to mature in the 4th season.

[Affogato]

I will now predict that if possible Soldier Boy will return in the 4th season, but maybe only in flashbacks. We need the backstory on this guy.

The noir cartoon was a creative way to get some things said, and seems to establish him as disturbingly psychotic, for a superpowered guy. But aren't they all?

Stormfront clearly wanted to be the mother of the master race, and fulfill her purpose, damaged as she was. I wonder if that is where Homelander got the idea with Maeve.

there is a lot going on and I'm sure the threads won't all be tied off in the next episode. I'm okay with that.

I'm pretty sure that Butcher and Hughie are both going over the limit on temp V and it will either lead to a good blast from SB or a full on dose of regular V. Let me also say that Butcher had a pretty tragic, pretty believable backstory that really is informing his relationships with Mallory, Ryan and Hughie.

[Affogato]

On 7/1/2022 at 7:39 PM, Castiels Cat said:

Dealey Plaza was Kennedy's assassination which suggests he was a top notch assassin and marksman; it's indicating he's the second shooter and the one that actually did the kill shot.

Gunpowder wouldn't have been born yet, or I'd think SB had him do the shooting. Soldier Boy probably has really good reflexes and senses, which would make it relatively easy for him to be a marksman. Compared to, say, me.

[Colorado David]

On 7/1/2022 at 1:42 PM, Tachi Rocinante said:

• Paul Reiser keeps killing it.

I didn't even recognize Reiser in those glasses. He picks great shows - this, Stranger Things.

Good episode. Wow so Butcher has actual sad emotions at times, I never would've thought. Sounds like he had a rough childhood.

A-Train getting Blue Hawk's heart, definitely did NOT see that one coming. It round it out nicely tho, now he's got a decent ticker and doesn't have to worry about heart attacks,  and that punk BH ending up being beneficial in spite of himself.

[Castiels Cat]

15 hours ago, Affogato said:

I will now predict that if possible Soldier Boy will return in the 4th season, but maybe only in flashbacks. We need the backstory on this guy.

The noir cartoon was a creative way to get some things said, and seems to establish him as disturbingly psychotic, for a superpowered guy. But aren't they all?

Stormfront clearly wanted to be the mother of the master race, and fulfill her purpose, damaged as she was. I wonder if that is where Homelander got the idea with Maeve.

there is a lot going on and I'm sure the threads won't all be tied off in the next episode. I'm okay with that.

I'm pretty sure that Butcher and Hughie are both going over the limit on temp V and it will either lead to a good blast from SB or a full on dose of regular V. Let me also say that Butcher had a pretty tragic, pretty believable backstory that really is informing his relationships with Mallory, Ryan and Hughie.

I think both will need regular V to heal and to satisfy their need/addiction to power. Yes Hughie did show growth in the episode and good on him for self awareness and the ability to see some things clearly. It may save his relationship in the long run. However he is still jonesing for the power rush and competitive edge. 

We are seeing the twin themes of daddy issues (and mommy,issues) and toxic masculinity.

Only Frenchie seems to have really broken free through his love and caring for Kimoko which is what makes that coupling so endearing.

We definitely need to see SB's story and viewpoint. We are seeing everyone else's. It may be that we will get his via a pivotal conversation in which he tries to impart lessons on how to be a man to Homelander. 

Also perhaps in confrontations with Noir.

Edited July 4, 2022 by Castiels Cat

[Castiels Cat]

3 hours ago, Affogato said:

Well, Kevin's relationships with the Octopi are the only relatable and redeeming part of his character. We have to like him to some extent for this to work, and he is clearly tender, respectful and loving to his little Cephalopod lovers.

Someone is going to do a killer cosplay of that Herogasm outfit, too!

I think the wife leaving over this proposition will cause problems because I think she/the church is the real member of the Seven and the Deep is just the front. So if he gets rid of his wife, he is in trouble. That to me would be a plot to mature in the 4th season.

His wife is the insightful intellect and the Deep is not so deep or insightful. He does love his sealife especially multilimbed mollusks of both sexes. I feel he can definitely be redeemed with better role models. 

[Castiels Cat]

19 hours ago, Myrelle said:

Knowing Kripke's writing, these were the two biggest red flags in the episode for me.

Two things I've dreaded from the beginning of the Soldier Boy storyline were that Kripke would just simply go back to the same old wells to get rid of him if JA isn't coming back for S4-those being A) he either goes back to the cryo chamber or B)he gets a group stomp down or something similar to what Stormfront was given at the end of S2.

I would rather they just kill him off outright rather than either of those two things. 

The character has been built up to be as strong as Homelander or at least comparable in that regard, so even if everyone and their mother goes up against him in the finale, he better inflict some heavy casualties on them on his way out or the big build up and set up was for nothing, AFAIC, and Kripke remains mediocre in my eyes. 

The Noir business was the biggest red flag for me.

It's like with one scene the full intent was to turn that character into nothing more than just a poor little woobie who SB abused into becoming a heinous monster with apparently no choice in that regard. Bah. 

I hope Kripke has something better up his sleeve than it feels like to me.

The silver lining is that IF Soldier Boy and Homelander do join forces, it should be that much harder to take either one of them down, even singularly.

Mmmm.... 

Yes. SB wanted kids however Homelander is not at all the son he would want or wanted. What did Butcher's dad call his sons... yeah. That's how SB would think of his emotional, base wearing hair-dyed, spandex clad, star spangly son who just wants to be loved. He would see him as unmanly.

Noir is no match for him. They needed Mindstorm and that was before he leveled up. When he is attacked now he goes nuclear and everyone else loses their powers.

I object to the labeling as bad without knowing the backstory. Ignoring the torture and ptsd. Giving the violence and rude behavior of other characters a pass; just imagine what they might be like with v in their system for decades... I think MM would he a lot like SB if you gave him V; mental illness and a tendency towards violence is there. The drug clearly exaggerates tendencies that are already there.

Taking speculation to that thread...

Edited July 4, 2022 by Castiels Cat

[Castiels Cat]

On 7/2/2022 at 6:12 PM, FlickChick said:

Two thoughts on different ends of the spectrum. First, I think that The Deep's scenes are meant to be OTT and possibly humorous breaks in the action and that is probably the only reason the character is still on. Secondly, sadly, I wonder where they're going with Maeve and Homelander's threat to harvest her eggs. Because, I think that she would find a way to kill herself before letting him do that to her. In fact, when we saw the suicide warning at the beginning of the episode, then saw the threatening scene with Maeve/Homelander, I was afraid that was what the warning was about. I do like the spec that Maeve might be pregnant  with Butcher's child, as long as that story gets to play out. Also, count me in with those who think that 8 episodes in a season is entirely too few to play out so many characters' stories.

I am afraid that we are supposed to extrapolate that They used Liberty/Stormfront's eggs to create Homelander and remember his mommy fetish and think ehh... he's tragic test tube Oedipus.

Of course Oedipus kills his father and his mother commits suicide. Hopefully Homelander does not kills SB because that would be disappointing.

Edited July 4, 2022 by Castiels Cat

[Castiels Cat]

On 7/1/2022 at 6:04 PM, ahrtee said:

Is it considered bestiality if it's with a mollusk?😕

Well... it can definitely be said that he sleeps with the fishes.

[millennium]

On 6/30/2022 at 10:45 PM, AntFTW said:

Why is the Deep soooo weird?

Is that Marie?

[AntFTW]

1 hour ago, millennium said:

Is that Marie?

It sure is 🤣, when she was on Ex on the Beach with Devin.

[wmdekooning]

On 7/1/2022 at 3:06 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

It was pretty satisfying to see MM punch Todd in the face. I mean, the whole 'somebody's gotta be' line is a trope as old as time, but if it gets a smarmy tool like Todd put on his ass, then I'll allow it.

Yo! The whole time Todd was running his yap, I'm looking at MM and how "swole" he is, knowing that Todd was sure to eventually have his mouth write a check he couldn't cash and was about to get laid out on the ground.

Oh yeh, I was also looking at Todd's played out jacket...

[Bergamot]

I like Kimiko as a character a lot, but I was disappointed with the way they had her decide she wanted her powers back. As a friend pointed out to me, she was able to save Frenchie from Little Nina without them, using her considerable skills as a fighter, her grit, and her courage. I admired her a lot for that. I feel like her getting her powers back is a reset for plot purposes, rather than showing any growth for the character.

I don’t get why saving Frenchie without her powers made her feel like she is a monster, whereas having the ability to save him with her powers is somehow empowering. Kimiko was so tormented by the thought of the children at Vought Land who got caught up in her and Frenchie’s pursuit of the Countess, and by the fear shown by the Russian women who witnessed her using Supe powers to kill. She hated the effect her use of her powers had on them.

But what happens now when she uses her powers? Does she tell any future traumatized children or terrified women, “It’s okay! Everything’s fine! I CHOSE to have these powers!” How does that fix everything? We have seen that the use of Supe powers inevitably comes with collateral damage; is Kimiko okay with that?

I tend to think that M.M. was the one who had it right, when he said that NO ONE should have powers like the Supes have. Not even those who justify it by asserting that it is okay because they want to use it to do good things.

I also have a problem with Kripke’s idea that Supe powers reveal who you really are inside. It’s just not that simple. What if Homelander was raised as a normal child in a family with a loving mother and father? Would he still have turned out to be a murderous psychopath, because “that’s who he really was inside” from the moment he was born? It could have been in his genes, or it could have been something Compound V did to him, or it could have been the childhood he was forced to have because he was a Supe. I guess that seeing what happens with Ryan might tell us more.
 

Edited July 5, 2022 by Bergamot

[AntFTW]

8 hours ago, Bergamot said:

I don’t get why saving Frenchie without her powers made her feel like she is a monster, whereas having the ability to save him with her powers is somehow empowering. Kimiko was so tormented by the thought of the children at Vought Land who got caught up in her and Frenchie’s pursuit of the Countess, and by the fear shown by the Russian women who witnessed her using Supe powers to kill. She hated the effect her use of her powers had on them.

I sort of thought she felt trapped. This world or this life, as fucked up as it is, she isn't going to escape from it no matter where her and Frenchie go. This mess will always catch up to them.

Therefore, if she's going to continue going through this fucked up world with no escape and if her and Frenchie are gonna be keep finding themselves getting captured; beaten; tortured; shot at; chased by supes, then she may as well have some powers and be able to save them, and heal quickly so that she can save them from the next mess.

Edited July 5, 2022 by AntFTW

[Aithne]

7 hours ago, Bergamot said:

I don’t get why saving Frenchie without her powers made her feel like she is a monster, whereas having the ability to save him with her powers is somehow empowering. 

I think she used to believe that she'd be gentler, less vengeful, get less satisfaction out of violence, without the V. Now, she knows that she can be just as vengeful without it. She didn't have to stab that guy as many times as she did. She did it because she was so angry at what had just been done to her and Frenchie, and she wanted to kill the people responsible with extreme violence. 

That rage still scares her, as she alluded to when she told Frenchie that she was still a monster. But it's not a V problem, it's a Kimiko problem. So she needs to work on herself, and she understands that now. But if she'd had the V, she could've spared him (and her, and Cherie) everything they went through before she managed to pick the lock on her cuffs, AND she wouldn't have been any more monstrous than she is right now, because the V is a neutral tool rather than a bogeyman that forced her to behave how she did. 

The collateral damage at Voughtland wasn't due to her powers, but to her position working with the Boys. It still would've happened if MM had been there with Frenchie instead of her. But she still feels the need to fight for what's right, so collateral damage by the supes she's fighting against will always be a risk, whether she has powers herself or not. 

[AntFTW]

1 minute ago, Aithne said:

I think she used to believe that she'd be gentler, less vengeful, get less satisfaction out of violence, without the V. Now, she knows that she can be just as vengeful without it. She didn't have to stab that guy as many times as she did. She did it because she was so angry at what had just been done to her and Frenchie, and she wanted to kill the people responsible with extreme violence. 

That rage still scares her, as she alluded to when she told Frenchie that she was still a monster. But it's not a V problem, it's a Kimiko problem. So she needs to work on herself, and she understands that now. But if she'd had the V, she could've spared him (and her, and Cherie) everything they went through before she managed to pick the lock on her cuffs, AND she wouldn't have been any more monstrous than she is right now, because the V is a neutral tool rather than a bogeyman that forced her to behave how she did. 

The collateral damage at Voughtland wasn't due to her powers, but to her position working with the Boys. It still would've happened if MM had been there with Frenchie instead of her. But she still feels the need to fight for what's right, so collateral damage by the supes she's fighting against will always be a risk, whether she has powers herself or not. 

I like your explanation so much better than mine. Mine is trash 🤣

[Aithne]

Just now, AntFTW said:

I like your explanation so much better than mine. Mine is trash 🤣

Haha, I liked yours better because it tied into his last words to her in ep 6 - that feeling of resignation is definitely playing into it. They're not gonna get to Marseille, they're not gonna get what they want, but she can at least keep him safe. 

(I love them so much, I can't even deal.) 

[StarBrand]

I had a few thoughts about Kimko that came to me last night.

First off...under the V, does she feel any pain? Or maybe she does, but to a lesser extent than the average human.  I ask that because she said to Frenchie,  under the V, she couldn't feel his arms before, and made a big deal out of dancing "one last time" with Frenchie before taking the V again. She kissed Frenchie after she realized her powers were gone.

Also, were her powers already coming back? She took a beating that probably should have killed her, but that didn't happen  So, if her powers were coming back, wouldn't another shot of V essentially double-dosing her?  Could she be turn out to be the big weapon against SB/Homelander?

Might be a load of bunk, but it's a thought.

[Bergamot]

10 hours ago, Aithne said:

I think she used to believe that she'd be gentler, less vengeful, get less satisfaction out of violence, without the V. Now, she knows that she can be just as vengeful without it. She didn't have to stab that guy as many times as she did. She did it because she was so angry at what had just been done to her and Frenchie, and she wanted to kill the people responsible with extreme violence. 

That rage still scares her, as she alluded to when she told Frenchie that she was still a monster. But it's not a V problem, it's a Kimiko problem. So she needs to work on herself, and she understands that now.

I think my problem with Kimiko’s storyline goes back to my discomfort with Kripke’s theme, which I think is too simplistic, that Compound V only reveals who you really are, and that Kimiko has now discovered the truth about herself. So who is Kimiko really? I think that Kimiko believes that stabbing that man 17 times does mean that she is a monster. But maybe reacting with rage and violence against someone who is torturing those you love and about to murder you is not inappropriate and does not mean that there is something intrinsically wrong with you.

Of course Kimiko is very damaged. She was stolen from her parents as a child, raised by the Shining Light to be turned into a soldier, and then injected with Compound V to be molded into a weapon. That is why she is filled with rage and the capacity for violence. But she also has gentleness inside her and the capacity for love, and she is worth everything Frenchie has done to save her.

I agree that she does feel trapped, and of course I understand why she would want to be able to use her powers to protect her family. But choosing to have powers again doesn’t feel like her exercising her freedom to decide who she is, more like acknowledging that she can’t escape the trap she is in.

I also feel like she thinks that means she has to say good-bye to dancing, and watching “Singing In The Rain”, and kissing Frenchie. And maybe she thinks that she doesn’t even deserve those things because of who she is. I hope that it is not true that she feels this way and that she does continue to work on herself, as you say. I wish that someday she would get the chance to go to Marseille.

[Aithne]

4 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

I think my problem with Kimiko’s storyline goes back to my discomfort with Kripke’s theme, which I think is too simplistic, that Compound V only reveals who you really are, and that Kimiko has now discovered the truth about herself. So who is Kimiko really? I think that Kimiko believes that stabbing that man 17 times does mean that she is a monster. But maybe reacting with rage and violence against someone who is torturing those you love and about to murder you is not inappropriate and does not mean that there is something intrinsically wrong with you.

Of course Kimiko is very damaged. She was stolen from her parents as a child, raised by the Shining Light to be turned into a soldier, and then injected with Compound V to be molded into a weapon. That is why she is filled with rage and the capacity for violence. But she also has gentleness inside her and the capacity for love, and she is worth everything Frenchie has done to save her.

I agree that she does feel trapped, and of course I understand why she would want to be able to use her powers to protect her family. But choosing to have powers again doesn’t feel like her exercising her freedom to decide who she is, more like acknowledging that she can’t escape the trap she is in.

I also feel like she thinks that means she has to say good-bye to dancing, and watching “Singing In The Rain”, and kissing Frenchie. And maybe she thinks that she doesn’t even deserve those things because of who she is. I hope that it is not true that she feels this way and that she does continue to work on herself, as you say. I wish that someday she would get the chance to go to Marseille.

Yeah, I don't know if Kimiko's perception of herself ties into Kripke's comment about compound V - he's also said that she's being selfless in accepting it back, so clearly he doesn't think she's a monster. I think the monster thing is Kimiko's own hangup, and if V reveals her true self, it's in how she protected Frenchie against Black Noir when she hardly knew him, and in her courage in choosing to fight the supes rather than take his offer to send her home. 

I do agree that there's tragedy in what she's choosing, and that it's partially out of despair.  It's no coincidence that she's giving up on romantic love and dancing and Marseille at the very same time she chooses to take V again. She's not afraid to take V anymore because she knows her darkness is internal, with or without it. But that doesn't mean this was a free and unbiased choice. She feels that her choice is take V, or eventually watch Frenchie die knowing she could've stopped it. And you're right, that's not empowering, that's a decision made out of fear. There's no triumph in how this season has ended for these two - they're back with the team, but the bright future they hoped for is farther away than ever. 

I agree, though, I hope that's still something they can have. And I don't think this show is so dark that this would be an impossible ending, actually. 

[Bergamot]

2 hours ago, Aithne said:

I think the monster thing is Kimiko's own hangup, and if V reveals her true self, it's in how she protected Frenchie against Black Noir when she hardly knew him, and in her courage in choosing to fight the supes rather than take his offer to send her home. 

I like this very much! Works for me. I admit that sometimes I find Kripke's comments on his own shows to be less than helpful, shall we say (not always, but sometimes), and I would do better to just look at what the show itself is saying.

2 hours ago, Aithne said:

I agree, though, I hope that's still something they can have. And I don't think this show is so dark that this would be an impossible ending, actually.

As you say, Marseille seems further away and more impossible to reach than ever now, but I haven't quite given up all hope for them!

(I'm sure that it has not escaped your attention, but I can see so many similarities between Kimiko and a character from another show that I know we both love, whose initials are D.W.! 😊 But I guess I need to take that discussion to that show's forum!)

Edited July 6, 2022 by Bergamot

[Smad]

19 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

I like this very much! Works for me. I admit that sometimes I find Kripke's comments on his own shows to be less than helpful, shall we say (not always, but sometimes), and I would do better to just look at what the show itself is saying.

Kripke should have paid attention to Dumb&Dumber and their 'Inside the Episode' fiasco. Sometimes it's best to just not talk.

2 hours ago, Aithne said:

I agree, though, I hope that's still something they can have. And I don't think this show is so dark that this would be an impossible ending, actually. 

Except the show seems to be all about nihilism all the time. No one ever scores a win except the bad guys. The bad guys aren't going anywhere so the status quo stays the same. The characters are becoming stale and stagnant. The ones who retain their morality and humanity are being poo-pooed by a lot of people (the current Hughie vs Annie debate is crazy...it's Walter White vs Skyler basically) and that's the show's fault. Maybe they didn't intend for their show to be received that way but here we are.

Kimiko and Frenchie are a perfect example of this. They have rung the 'unhappy ending' bell the minute they talked about their future plans. Because as much as this show likes to call out real world issues and clichés, they still end up falling into that trap a lot. There hasn't been a single win or 'light at the end of the tunnel' moment that hasn't been immediately reversed. When they continuously have Frenchie and Kimiko decide to stay instead of doing what's right for themselves, that's the cliché right there. The show could have bucked the trend and have them leave together once Kimiko lost her powers. But they don't because both are beloved characters and are needed for the plot. At the very least they could have had Kimiko permanently loose her powers but that was never going to happen either because The Boys need people with powers on their side.

[Frost]

1 hour ago, Smad said:

When they continuously have Frenchie and Kimiko decide to stay instead of doing what's right for themselves, that's the cliché right there. The show could have bucked the trend and have them leave together once Kimiko lost her powers.

With Little Nina still on the loose, I don't think running off to Marseille is a viable option.  She seems to have an international network so I'm sure a little continent hopping will not throw her off Frenchie's trail.

[Aithne]

2 hours ago, Bergamot said:

2 hours ago, Bergamot said:

I like this very much! Works for me. I admit that sometimes I find Kripke's comments on his own shows to be less than helpful, shall we say (not always, but sometimes), and I would do better to just look at what the show itself is saying.

As you say, Marseille seems further away and more impossible to reach than ever now, but I haven't quite given up all hope for them!

(I'm sure that it has not escaped your attention, but I can see so many similarities between Kimiko and a character from another show that I know we both love, whose initials are D.W.! 😊 But I guess I need to take that discussion to that show's forum!)

It's possible we have a type, haha. (But this time I'm a diehard bibro - amazing how two people being mutually invested in each other will do that!). 

But yeah, Kripke has a history of being too general / flippant, etc., which I think a lot of new fans of his through this show also discovered with his comments about Hughie. I kind of wave off his comments these days. 

Edited July 6, 2022 by Aithne