Dark Winds - General Discussion

[meep.meep]

On 7/6/2022 at 9:03 AM, Stuckathome said:

I really felt for Joe when Emma just went ahead and said Sally could stay with them....I know it only seems right that she could and would do that as she said it is what she wanted and was right, but this is 1971....I am guessing most wives were not so opinionated and strong willed. Love the cast and the scenery, the music, all of it. 

Navajo men and women are equals, no one is subservient.  In tribal matters everyone gets a say and everyone else is supposed to listen.

[pasdetrois]

Also, harmony is a prevailing goal within the Dine community.

And they are a matriarchal society. From one of many websites explaining this nation: "A woman controls the hogan, built on land that was set aside for her by her family; she owns the children, which belong to her clan, her sheep, the product of her sheep and other livestock, her jewelry and all blankets she might weave and the income from the sale of any of her property.  A husband owns what he has inherited from his own family and all goods which he has bought out of his own earnings which, nowadays, often includes a pick-up truck."

The blessing or prayer someone spoke over the Leaphorn's son's site moved me to tears. Very simple, very meaningful.

Edited July 12, 2022 by pasdetrois

[Rickster]

On 7/7/2022 at 11:46 PM, Melonie77 said:

Just finished watching episode 5 - won't give anything away but just wanted to say that Chee has yet another encounter with a vehicle parked on the side of the road - this one in distress and this time Chee stops to help. And he gets an interesting little reward for doing so!😁

So I was confused. Why did Chee go to see the used car guy? Because he was suspicious of the deals he was offering Navajos?

I think I would benefit from rewatching this show from the beginning.

[Dowel Jones]

I think he was just playing a hunch, given that the terms as described by the old man with the broke down pickup just seemed a bit shady.

[SunnyBeBe]

On 7/11/2022 at 9:38 PM, mythoughtis said:

Some of it was given to Devoted Dan - the car lot guy.  He was told to use it to supply the Navajo with new(er)  cars.  So in that respect, the robbers were using the money to help their fellow Native  Americans.  
When they weren’t killing them,  impregnating them, imprisoning them or getting them stung by spiders 

Yeah, but what about the money at the end near the cave?  Leaphorn said they only found one body and no money after the explosion.  So…..what happened to them?  

[mythoughtis]

Sunny Bebe … you must have watched episode 6 on AMC+, which I do not have.  

[UpaCreek]

2 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Yeah, but what about the money at the end near the cave?  Leaphorn said they only found one body and no money after the explosion.  So…..what happened to them?  

The money might have been what 'Father' Tso decided to bury with his grandfather.  I suspect the only Navajo who Tso is interested in helping is himself.

[LittleIggy]

That woman must have been desperate for dick to have sex with Devoted Dan!

[AnnA]

I just watched the season finale and have to say I was disappointed.   It seemed rushed, disorganized and confusing to watch.

At the very end where was Bernie?

[Raja]

So much for spoiling the villain turn in the previews since it was the first out of nowhere scene. The magic bullet in the fire wasn't needed, they should have found another way.

[Dowel Jones]

They sure wrapped that one up fast.  How did Chee know that Whitover was in on it?  Did I miss something from the last episode?  And Leaphorn is implying that Nakai crawled out of the cave before or after the explosion, dragging a duffel full of money, despite taking a bullet to the chest?  Or did Leaphorn go in afterward, before the FBI, and help himself?  I think he has more integrity than that.  Maybe it's a nod to the 'Nakai will never die' meme that they had going.  And who was Pete Samuels?  I don't remember him either.

[Maren]

Yea, that was kind of a letdown. They spent time so much time on things that didn't need that much time on, and then rushed the finale. Too much was dropped that they had hinted at earlier. And then it just went down in some big shoot out and that was it. And they totally let the dad of the girl off the hook when he had been TOLD that no one should go into the mines and he didn't tell anyone! It just fell kind of flat for all the intense build up they had over the first 5 episodes. 

[Melonie77]

3 hours ago, Dowel Jones said:

They sure wrapped that one up fast.  How did Chee know that Whitover was in on it?  Did I miss something from the last episode?  And who was Pete Samuels?  I don't remember him either.

Chee found out Whitover was in on the scheme when he followed the clue he picked up from the old Dine man with the broken down truck in episode 5. When Chee stops to help him the man speaks about Devoted Dan offering new cars to Navajos in trade for their old ones. 
When Chee goes to see Devoted Dan about this odd business deal he freely admits to being blackmailed into laundering the money for the men behind the heist.  Hoski and Nakai took compromising pics of him when he was bouncing around in his van with another woman.
Dan also tells Chee that another agent - Whitover has already questioned him about this. In addition Chee knows that Whitover told the other FBI agent to get rid of the files on the local murders. 

I think Pete Samuels must be the mustached white man involved in the heist. He was dressed as a police officer. The four men who carried out the robbery were mustache-man, Hoski, Nakai and the pilot Chip Woods (CW carved into the helmet).
I'm not sure why they shot the pilot.

[Zaffy]

Excellent series, but the finale was so and so and felt quite rushed (even the duration was shorter).
Still, I loved the show and I can't wait for the second season.

[Zaffy]

2 hours ago, Melonie77 said:

I'm not sure why they shot the pilot.

That was one of the weak spots in the story, Tso seemed to be very trigger happy, creating unnecessary attention by killing so many people. There was no need to kill the guards in cold blood during the heist, or to kidnap the Mormons family, or even to kill the young girl with his grandfather. The latter was the reason local police was involved and that lead to his end.

[possibilities]

I didn't understand why they killed the girl at the motel. It was so long ago in episodes, that maybe I just don't remember the details, but what was that about?

[Dowel Jones]

The pilot was a substitute, put in by Whitover.  He would have been the weak link in Tso's mind, because he connected them to Whitover.  

[ctlady]

10 hours ago, Maren said:

They spent time so much time on things that didn't need that much time on, and then rushed the finale

Do you mean like the young girl's "getting her first period and coming into womanhood" celebration?  Almost half an episode was dedicated to that - even if it had some kind of connection to the central plot.

[susannot]

3 hours ago, possibilities said:

I didn't understand why they killed the girl at the motel. It was so long ago in episodes, that maybe I just don't remember the details, but what was that about?

I presume she was killed because she was a witness to the killing of Tso's grandfather, which I still do not understand.  Nor do I understand what happened to the "real" Father Tso, Benjamin.  Did I miss something?

ETA:   reading another site, a plausible reason that Tso killed his grandfather is that the grandfather could identify him as James, not Benjamin.  Still don't know what happened to Benjamin though.

Edited July 18, 2022 by susannot

[nodorothyparker]

The shootout went on forever and seemingly involved everybody and their dog being doublecrossed or disarmed half a dozen times. It felt like kind of a muddled ending to what was otherwise a really strong season. I guess we're supposed to believe one of the two in the cave despite being shot and unconscious enough to be mistaken for dead AND surviving the explosion was able to crawl out under their own power with a heavy money bag? Okay then.

From his questioning, Joe obviously realized the official narrative Chee provided wasn't what happened. But he's willing to go with it anyway rather than invite any further poking into it by outsiders. It felt like an understandable choice that all three LEOs could see that no good was going to come of the dead girl's grieving dad, Guy?, being punished for shooting a criminal who was going to go down anyway. Hoski/Tso was ridiculously trigger happy to the point that he was coming off almost cartoonish, although Joe mostly saved that character in the end too by being willing to try to talk him through it all. Whatever my quibbles with the plotting of this ending, this really did do a good job of establishing that yes, of course Joe is a lawman but he's also one who tries to look out for his own rather than just throw them on the tender mercies of the outside justice system.

So Chee dumps the FBI after everything and decides to stick around just like we all knew he would. They really did just gloss over Sally has her baby and takes up permanent residence with the Leaphorns.

[magdalene]

If they were trying to make me feel sympathy for the fake Father in the end they failed. His actions throughout speak much louder than any words. As to him becoming a father - bring on the violins? - I see that as him sexually abusing a teenager and getting her pregnant in the process.

So the whole corrupt FBI guy connection got covered up? I can understand that because native American  police going up against the FBI in the seventies - yeah, I don't see that going well for Chee.

I am glad the Mormon family made it through alive. Next time you drive through the desert do it in a pool.

I thought the last episode was the weakest scripted but I will watch the second season.

[Dowel Jones]

55 minutes ago, magdalene said:

I am glad the Mormon family made it through alive. Next time you drive through the desert do it in a pool.

And have any paintings that you bought shipped to you.

[possibilities]

I think they were trying to show that, depraved as he was, Tso was driven crazy by being thrown away and then essentially tortured at the boarding school. He killed his grandfather because he felt betrayed, that his grandfather was complicit in what was done to him. And he wanted revenge, and saw anyone who got in his way as disposable, as he himself had been treated as being.

Whether that was a sane response is not what they were saying, I don't think. Joe tried to talk him into staying alive, going to prison, and seeking a better way to be a voice for good from there. 

I don't think they were trying to excuse or "redeem" him, but were trying to say: "this is how it happened" and "people treated like this sometimes lose their minds and need to be stopped from violence, but it's also chickens coming home to roost in some way." 

I get frustrated with the TV (and movie) convention of people monologuing before they shoot someone, and then being a bad shot at close range. Highpockets shooting Chee at close range and hitting his ARM? Not credible to me. Likewise, I thought Chee was standing way too casually and close to Highpockets, and that HP was going to grab his gun and shoot Chee, until avenging Dad showed up and took HP out. I can't remember whey Dad was there in the first place, though, so that also was a bit too TV convenient for me.

It's rough that Chee decided to stay on the Rez, not really because he wanted to, but because he realized the FBI was never going to be safe, it's too corrupt, and he really basically gave up on them and took the Rez as a booby prize. Yes, he said Bernadette's there, but that wasn't enough for him 10 minutes ago, so she's also his "oh well, I guess since I'm here anyway, she's good". Psucks for her. She's my favorite character and I want her to be first choice, not booby prize for someone.

I hope we don't have to wait too long for the next season. Despite my confusion and irritation about a few things in this episode, I basically loved the season and I want more.

In regard to why they kept the Mormons, I thought it was so they could use them as cover. They needed to stay hidden, so they sent Dad Mormon to get the new vehicle from Dan, but also I thought they might have been planning to use them as literal cover in any possible shootout. "You shoot us and this nice white family will die!" Also, it's possible Tso enjoyed making them suffer. 

"I can't die" is... interesting? Him escaping with the money after being shot in the heart strikes me as way more of a supernatural stretch than the witchcraft we saw earlier. I don't know what to make of that, other than another bit of TV miracle.

[mjc570]

That was confusing and disappointing.  Great actors but the writing really let them down.  It was so confusing (especially for a show that I was unable to binge) and there were so many loose ends.  Knowing the limited number of episodes, the writers should have simplified the story lines.  Whatever happened to Father Tso? 

Having said that, I will look forward to next season.

[tennisgurl]

I have really liked this show, but this finale was a let down. Just a lot of shooting and talking, I feel like half of the plots we set up didn't get much resolution. The witch? Her pregnant daughter? The psychic visions of the accident that killed Joe's son? Hardly even mentioned, although maybe we will get follow up with those threads next season. It felt like a mess. 

That being said, this has still been a really good show, even with a disappointing ending, and I am excited for next season.

[nodorothyparker]

Father Tso shot himself after Joe left the cabin after the long tortured explanation of what happened with his grandfather.

I was disappointed after all the good characterization of Emma and the amount of time devoted to young Sally that we didn't see them at all until the brief "three months later" epilogue. Joe casually mentions in his final talk with Chee that Sally and the baby are continuing to live with them after railing against Emma's suggestion of it earlier. Maybe if they'd shaved five minutes of pulling guns on each other they could have given those stories better resolution. 

Zahn McClarnon did look really fine in the 30 seconds he had his hair down and wasn't saddled with the polyester CHIPS uniform shirt.

[susannot]

That wasn't Father Tso.  It was James Tso, bank robber, impersonating his twin brother Father Benjamin Tso.

[hatchetgirl]

24 minutes ago, susannot said:

That wasn't Father Tso.  It was James Tso, bank robber, impersonating his twin brother Father Benjamin Tso.

I think the actual Father Tso is in Italy at the Vatican, at least I think that's what the envelope address said.  It's how Leaphorn realized he wasn't the right twin.  

It is confusing. I definitely don't get how Nakai got out with the money.  I doubt we'll ever know.

I know some of you hate not being able to binge the program, but I loved waiting. It gave me something fun to look forward too and when I saw there was a new episode, I could watch then or wait and watch it at another time.  

[susannot]

I think you're right.  I had forgotten about the letter from the Vatican.

[izabella]

7 hours ago, magdalene said:

I am glad the Mormon family made it through alive. Next time you drive through the desert do it in a pool.

They didn't all make it out alive, though, right?  The father was sent to Dan's to get a van, but we saw him driving into a hole or something in the desert and flipping the car he was driving.  Did he turn up after that?

What happened to the mom and kids in the pit?  I saw Bernadette find them and start getting the ladder, but I must have missed seeing them get out or where they went after that.

[Raja]

1 hour ago, izabella said:

They didn't all make it out alive, though, right?  The father was sent to Dan's to get a van, but we saw him driving into a hole or something in the desert and flipping the car he was driving.  Did he turn up after that?

What happened to the mom and kids in the pit?  I saw Bernadette find them and start getting the ladder, but I must have missed seeing them get out or where they went after that.

That's where the girl's father came in. For some reason grabbing his rifle to check out an overturned car. He told his friend to take the Mormon father to the hospital and went on his vigilante hunt.

[mythoughtis]

I had a hard time understanding Joe when he said who it was that escaped the cave somehow.  So thank you all for  identifying him.

Guy was told by the father that his family was being held hostage. So he said  he’d go look for them.   That is why he was at the cave. 

I found it hard to believe that James Tso would turn into a philosophical person and commit suicide after a heart to heart with Joe.  He murdered multiple people, robbed banks, got a witch to spell people, and impregnated her daughter.  He’s not the philosophical type. 

[Maren]

16 hours ago, ctlady said:

Do you mean like the young girl's "getting her first period and coming into womanhood" celebration?  Almost half an episode was dedicated to that - even if it had some kind of connection to the central plot.

Yea, that was exactly what I was thinking of lol. I enjoyed finding out some of the culture but honestly, it went on for way too long and had nothing to do with the plot. It was pointless 

"I didn't understand why they killed the girl at the motel. It was so long ago in episodes, that maybe I just don't remember the details, but what was that about?"

Possibilities, my understanding was that she was scared to death. I don't think they killed her deliberately but it literally scared her to death. Like what almost happened to Bernadette when the witch lady came in. 

I didn't feel for "Father Tso" either. He killed too many innocent Navajo to buy his "I just want to save our people" crap. He was evil and out for himself. Plus, he raped Sally!

[Rickster]

I don’t know, despite an enormously appealing cast and a very intriguing setting, I thought this season was a mess from a storytelling perspective. I blame both the writing and direction. Maybe it had to do (as I understand it) piecing together a plot from several novels?

I’ll be back for season 2, keeping my fingers crossed that the writing and plotting improve.

[sugarbaker design]

10 hours ago, mythoughtis said:

He’s not the philosophical type. 

He's exactly the philosophical type!  Madmen through the centuries have justified their horrific actions with philosophy.

21 hours ago, ctlady said:

Do you mean like the young girl's "getting her first period and coming into womanhood" celebration?  Almost half an episode was dedicated to that - even if it had some kind of connection to the central plot.

That, for me, was one of the highlights of the series.

[sugarbaker design]

1 hour ago, Rickster said:

Maybe it had to do (as I understand it) piecing together a plot from several novels?

There sure was a lot of plot.  It could've been fixed with just a few scenes of Joe, Jim and Bernie talking about different prongs of the case (the Buffalo Society, the explosion at the mine, the helicopter in the lake, the car salesman), taking the viewer with them as they solved the case, instead of having the three work separately.

And because no one has said it yet, the cinematography in the last episode was awesome!  The levels of darkness in the canyon was beautiful and terrifying.

Edited July 19, 2022 by sugarbaker design

[BookLover]

If Frank Nakai is alive and Father Benjamin Tso is in Italy then we can potentially see Eugene Brave Rock and Jeremiah Bitsui as actors in the next season. 

[UpaCreek]

7 hours ago, sugarbaker design said:

There sure was a lot of plot.  It could've been fixed with just a few scenes of Joe, Jim and Bernie talking about different prongs of the case (the Buffalo Society, the explosion at the mine, the helicopter in the lake, the car salesman), taking the viewer with them as they solved the case, instead of having the three work separately.

And because no one has said it yet, the cinematography in the last episode was awesome!  The levels of darkness in the canyon was beautiful and terrifying.

Ha-ha.  Thanks to the levels of darkness, I couldn't see 90% of the episode.  May as well make it a radio show.

I guess I expected more seeing as how Robert Redford was an executive producer.  But, AMC is continuing with poor lighting and even worse story-telling abilities.  Very reminiscent of how they've mucked up The Walking Dead.  Did anyone even care that Raymond disappeared courtesy of being shot?

[AnnA]

5 hours ago, UpaCreek said:

Ha-ha.  Thanks to the levels of darkness, I couldn't see 90% of the episode.  May as well make it a radio show.

I guess I expected more seeing as how Robert Redford was an executive producer.  But, AMC is continuing with poor lighting and even worse story-telling abilities.  Very reminiscent of how they've mucked up The Walking Dead.  Did anyone even care that Raymond disappeared courtesy of being shot?

I thought they did an excellent job of filming in the dark.   I was able to see what was happening despite the lack of light.  Most TV shows do a lousy job of filming in the dark so this was a pleasant surprise.

[LittleIggy]

On 7/18/2022 at 5:06 PM, nodorothyparker said:

Zahn McClarnon did look really fine in the 30 seconds he had his hair down and wasn't saddled with the polyester CHIPS uniform shirt.

Oh yeah! 😛

[sugarbaker design]

11 hours ago, AnnA said:

I thought they did an excellent job of filming in the dark.   I was able to see what was happening despite the lack of light.  Most TV shows do a lousy job of filming in the dark so this was a pleasant surprise.

Totally agree.

[Ms Lark]

On 7/19/2022 at 8:54 AM, sugarbaker design said:

On 7/18/2022 at 11:33 AM, ctlady said:

Do you mean like the young girl's "getting her first period and coming into womanhood" celebration?  Almost half an episode was dedicated to that - even if it had some kind of connection to the central plot.

That, for me, was one of the highlights of the series.

Mine, too. The women running through the desert was so joyful, you just had to feel good. I loved it!

I did like the series, though. The final episode was my least favorite, but we get another season, so I'm looking forward to that.

Edited July 23, 2022 by Ms Lark

[MBayGal]

On 7/22/2022 at 11:26 PM, Ms Lark said:

On 7/19/2022 at 5:54 AM, sugarbaker design said:

That, for me, was one of the highlights of the series.

Mine, too. The women running through the desert was so joyful, you just had to feel good. I loved it!

I did like the series, though. The final episode was my least favorite, but we get another season, so I'm looking forward to that.

[MBayGal]

I don't know what happened to  my attempt to reply above.  I also thought that celebrating the young girl's womanhood was beautiful.  Certainly not what I experienced in the late 50s or what I shared with my daughters. My daughter who lives nearby was over one night and I played it for her, she also loved it. The different large and small glimpses of tribal life made the show special to me, more than solving the crimes. I thought the final episode was weak and disjointed, but look forward to the next season. 

[AnimeMania]

‘Dark Winds’ Writer Billy Luther on Native Representation: ‘We Didn’t Need to Explain Everything, We Just Showed It’

[MBayGal]

Thank you, @AnimeMania for that interesting article.  

[proserpina65]

On 7/17/2022 at 10:43 PM, AnnA said:

I just watched the season finale and have to say I was disappointed.   It seemed rushed, disorganized and confusing to watch.

At the very end where was Bernie?

I'm with you.  Up until the last episode, the story was really gripping, but then it sort of stumbled to a mediocre resolution.  Still, overall, I enjoyed and am glad I watched.  Even if Jim Chee remained entirely and completely wrong to the end.

On 7/18/2022 at 11:30 AM, Dowel Jones said:

The pilot was a substitute, put in by Whitover.  He would have been the weak link in Tso's mind, because he connected them to Whitover.  

Yep, I don't think he trusted him to keep his mouth shut so he shut it for him.

On 7/18/2022 at 8:48 AM, possibilities said:

I didn't understand why they killed the girl at the motel. It was so long ago in episodes, that maybe I just don't remember the details, but what was that about?

She would've been a witness.  She saw that the token the grandfather brought with him was a pair glasses and could've put it together for the police.  The only reason her grandmother survived was her blindness which kept her from seeing the killers.

On 7/18/2022 at 11:40 AM, susannot said:

I presume she was killed because she was a witness to the killing of Tso's grandfather, which I still do not understand.  Nor do I understand what happened to the "real" Father Tso, Benjamin.  Did I miss something?

ETA:   reading another site, a plausible reason that Tso killed his grandfather is that the grandfather could identify him as James, not Benjamin.  Still don't know what happened to Benjamin though.

Benjamin was in Europe and had been for years.  That's where the grandfather's letter was supposed to be mailed.  And yes, James killed his grandfather because he would've known that it was James pretending to be his brother.

On 7/18/2022 at 5:06 PM, nodorothyparker said:

Zahn McClarnon did look really fine in the 30 seconds he had his hair down and wasn't saddled with the polyester CHIPS uniform shirt.

True dat

On 7/19/2022 at 8:58 AM, sugarbaker design said:

There sure was a lot of plot.  It could've been fixed with just a few scenes of Joe, Jim and Bernie talking about different prongs of the case (the Buffalo Society, the explosion at the mine, the helicopter in the lake, the car salesman), taking the viewer with them as they solved the case, instead of having the three work separately.

It needed a map and a bunch of push pins, damn it.

On 7/19/2022 at 8:54 AM, sugarbaker design said:

On 7/18/2022 at 11:33 AM, ctlady said:

Do you mean like the young girl's "getting her first period and coming into womanhood" celebration?  Almost half an episode was dedicated to that - even if it had some kind of connection to the central plot.

That, for me, was one of the highlights of the series.

If the show had been at least one episode longer, I might agree with you.  But given what a rushed mess the finale was, I'd have trimmed that down considerably to allow for more actual plot to better support the resolution of the crime.

On 7/24/2022 at 7:48 PM, MBayGal said:

I don't know what happened to  my attempt to reply above.  I also thought that celebrating the young girl's womanhood was beautiful.  Certainly not what I experienced in the late 50s or what I shared with my daughters. My daughter who lives nearby was over one night and I played it for her, she also loved it. The different large and small glimpses of tribal life made the show special to me, more than solving the crimes. I thought the final episode was weak and disjointed, but look forward to the next season. 

Beautiful, maybe, although personally I wouldn't have wanted all the attention.  Too damned long given how few episodes remained at that point, absolutely.

[AnimeMania]

‘Dark Winds’: John Wirth Replaces Vince Calandra As Showrunner For Season 2

[ShellsandCheese]

On 6/20/2022 at 11:15 AM, hatchetgirl said:

I'm thinking it was just basic creepiness, let's wait for backup kind of a thing.  Safety.

The thing that bothered me though was that Mormon family was drinking RC Cola.  Doesn't that have caffeine in it and don't Mormons not drink anything with caffeine?  Yes, I'm that dork that asks these questions.

I'm loving the show.  That witch lady is TERRIFYING.  I'm hoping the pregnant girl isn't staying with them so get their hair.  :(  

Perhaps things have changed but Mormons are allowed to drink and do drink soda. Coffee is "banned", along with alcohol, tobacco, tea, and illegal drugs. A lot of people just assumed all caffeine was no-go because both coffee and tea have it, but that is incorrect. Although, a lot of mormons do still avoid soda. 

[Rickster]

6 hours ago, ShellsandCheese said:

Perhaps things have changed but Mormons are allowed to drink and do drink soda. Coffee is "banned", along with alcohol, tobacco, tea, and illegal drugs. A lot of people just assumed all caffeine was no-go because both coffee and tea have it, but that is incorrect. Although, a lot of mormons do still avoid soda. 

The church apparently clarified its position and explicitly allowed caffeinated sodas around 2012, long after the time period of this show. Back in the late 80's, I worked briefly on a project with a Utah based company trying to expand a line of fruit flavored sodas and I was led then to believe sodas were OK with Mormons, but not if they were caffeinated, like colas.