S06.E07: Plan and Execution

[Constantinople]

1 hour ago, scenario said:

By the time Saul ran away, everyone important in the drug trade locally was dead.

Jesse wasn't.

Mike was dead but the authorities didn't know that. At least not that I remember.

Moreover, wouldn't the authorities be curious if Saul was engaged in other illegal activity, and if the coded black book could shed a light on that, particularly with regards to money laundering?

[Gobi]

I don’t recall, but was Saul actually wanted by the police (I think he was) or did he just decide it was time to get out of Dodge? Either way, it’s possible that someone (Kim?) had him declared legally dead and what we saw at the house was preparation for an estate sale.

Edited May 24, 2022 by Gobi

[Chaos Theory]

5 hours ago, dabbrusc said:

The thing that I found interesting is both Howard and Chuck were laying out to people the intricate ways Jimmy was screwing with them and they both were dead on 100% correct but nobody believed them. It led to both of their downfalls and ultimate demises.

By the time they figured it out it essentially didn’t matter anymore.   

What I like to think about is what might have happened if Lalo hadn’t been an issue.   If Howard had said his peace and left.   Would he have gone on to wage some kind of war with Jimmy and Kim or maybe find a kinder way to write him out. He finds out that the board wants him gone but his wife shows up with a cup of  cappuccino.  He opens the lid and it’s foam is messed up but he gets that she tried.   He tells her he isn’t a drug addict,  she believes him.   She wants him to move back into the main house .  Not into their bedroom but at least into their house.    As the two of them walk out of HHM the whispers persist and they walk past a huge picture of Harold’s father Harold and Chuck….as Harold takes his wife’s hand.    The kinder way to write Harold out of the story.

[Joan van Snark]

14 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

While the overall plan made more sense at the end, I still think there were a few variables that could have easily derailed it.  What if Howard went to get the photos himself?  Or if the mediator just decided that Howard was the one at fault, but was willing to continue on with the rest of them?  Or, hell, there could have even been an outside chance that Howard would have simply made the P.I. wait until after the mediation.  Granted, no plan is ever going to be foolproof, but this still seemed to be one hell of a gamble.

Agreed.  I felt the same way about Walt's plan of poisoning Brock.  I guess it didn't bother me as much as the ricin scenario because I wasn't spoiled for this one.

[millennium]

14 hours ago, Bannon said:

Howard WAS a real A-hole to Kim and Jimmy, but that doesn't justify for a second what Kim and Saul did (no, I've never once contemplated wholly unethical complex revenge schemes, which entailed drugging someone, because they were an A-hole to me), but Howard did go on a journey of frank self assessment and improvement, and succeeded, albeit imperfectly.

Howard was an asshole because it pleased him to be, and then went on his journey of frank self assessment and improvement because it pleased him to do that, too.  

Good for Howard.  He can sleep better at night.   It doesn't mean his earlier treatment of people has to be forgotten, or even forgiven by those he wronged.   It's up to the individual.  Some probably would forgive him.   Others ... maybe not.

Edited May 25, 2022 by millennium

[PeterPirate]

3 hours ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

A German engineer is nothing if not a coldly calculating realist, eh?

Just to throw this out there, Lalo said Casper was Croatian.  The actor who played Casper was born in Germany but his parents are both from Serbia.  

[qtpye]

7 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Well, it would not be a massive disappointment for me if Kim did not "disappear." I feel that they will have gone to this storytelling well once too often. I'm not saying that it will not happen. Rather, I don't like that end for Kim. Someone in the BCS/BB universe needs to face the consequences of their actions...consequences that are beyond their control. Not every character should have the option of running/hiding and then spending their days sulking at Cinnabon.

Agree. This isn't a world of happy endings. I like that Gene is taking matters into his own hands and doesn't want to be "disappeared" again. I can't even guess where that leads but I assume that he is finally willing to accept the consequences of his misdeeds...the ones that landed him in Omaha in the first place. 

Perhaps Kim runs away with Lalo to start a rival cartel against Don Eladio?

Bad boys do turn her on…

[LittleIggy]

Poor Howard. I cried. He didn’t deserve that.

[Wiendish Fitch]

I knew Howard would bite it, I just didn't think it would be at Lalo's hands. Poor dope. For all his flaws, Howard didn't deserve to be the target of Saul and Kim's awful con.

Kim's sweetly serene countenance when Howard said she had no soul? A thought all but screamed in my head: My God, he might be on to something!

Saul flushed his soul down the toilet quite a while ago, who knows how long Kim has been without hers?

Gus is somehow just as scary when he smiles. 

Hurry up, July!

Edited May 25, 2022 by Wiendish Fitch

[peeayebee]

4 hours ago, gallimaufry said:

I really liked Howard's comment about Chuck being the greatest legal mind: "Maybe there are more important things."  I think it shows a maturity, an insight and perhaps an empathy for Jimmy in a funny way.

I liked that moment, too, but I didn't see it as Howard thinking of Jimmy at all. He obviously misses Chuck and still admires him, but he sees how one's health and humanity are more important than how great one is at one's job. Chuck was brilliant but had so many demons. I think this insight figures into how Howard deals with being burned by Kim and Jimmy. As he acknowledges, he'll be ok. He recognizes that he's so much more than a lawyer. He's a good human being. 

Quote

The can trick was awesome.

  I assume this really works, but has anyone here tested it? Let us know.

2 hours ago, SimplexFish said:

I just rewatched it...Gus' hesitation was def him seeing Mike in the far doorway leading into the gym

I just rewatched it as well. I don't know how I missed this. You're right. He was looking at Mike at this point.

1 hour ago, Gobi said:

I don’t recall, but was Saul actually wanted by the police (I think he was) or did he just decide it was time to get out of Dodge? Either way, it’s possible that someone (Kim?) had him declared legally dead and what we saw at the house was preparation for an estate sale.

Y'know, I was trying to remember this as well. At the end of BB, Saul was hurrying to get out of Dodge, using the vacuum guy and all that, but I just can't remember if he was on law enforcement's radar. Was he just escaping from the cartel(s)?

I'm not ready yet to say there's a big plot hole because the police didn't take the little black book. We don't really know what has happened just before this, do we?

[DrSpaceman73]

22 hours ago, Armchair Critic said:

Maybe what will happen to Kim is after Howard's death she will tell Jimmy they are no good for each other and breaks up with him and that is why we don't see her in BB? Or will she grow a conscience and admit she set up Howard (but that would implicate Jimmy too)?

My guess is Kim doesn't survive the series. In some fashion. She dies or calls vacuum cleaner guy and gets a new identity. 

Did not see Howard's death coming.  Holy sh**.  

He really didn't deserve any of that. He was kind of a weasel ass kisser but not a bad person.  

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, millennium said:

Howard was an asshole because it pleased him to be, and then went on his journey of frank self assessment and improvement because it pleased him to do that, too.  

Good for Howard.  He can sleep better at night.   It doesn't mean his earlier treatment of people has to be forgotten, or even forgiven by those he wronged.   It's up to the individual.  Some probably would forgive him.   Others ... maybe not.

Forgiving someone has exactly nothing to do with refraining from engaging in a complex revenge scheme which entails trying to falsely convince 3rd parties that the target of revenge is engaged in criminal activity, or drugging that target without their knowledge. Kim didn't to forgive  Howard to avoid engaging in those wholly unethical and illegal behaviors.

[Starchild]

1 hour ago, peeayebee said:

Y'know, I was trying to remember this as well. At the end of BB, Saul was hurrying to get out of Dodge, using the vacuum guy and all that, but I just can't remember if he was on law enforcement's radar. Was he just escaping from the cartel(s)?

Pretty sure it was his association with Heisenberg that drove him out of Dodge. They knew Saul was his lawyer. The massive money laundering was known. And hadn't WW been suspected of disappearing two DEA agents by then, too?

[Irlandesa]

7 hours ago, monagatuna said:

But I don't think I'll get my wish. Our first mention of Ignacio in Breaking Bad indicates that Saul is expecting someone other than Walt and Jesse to be standing over him. Who else could it be besides Gus, Hector, or Lalo (or maybe one of Don Eladio's other henchmen)? And we know it's not going to be Hector...not physically, at least. And likely not Gus, wasn't it Saul that hooked up Gus with Walt in the first place?

Saul said he knew a guy who knew a guy who knew a guy.  I suspect it was done via Mike without Saul knowing who was on the other end of the string.

I'm starting to wonder if we've been fooled into thinking Saul thinks Lalo is alive because he called out his name.  However, it's also possible that Lalo ends up dead at the end of him holding Kim & Jimmy hostage and Jimmy makes it seem like he thinks Lalo is still alive  For all he knew, it was one of Salamanca's men who had kidnapped him.

2 hours ago, Gobi said:

I don’t recall, but was Saul actually wanted by the police (I think he was) or did he just decide it was time to get out of Dodge? Either way, it’s possible that someone (Kim?) had him declared legally dead and what we saw at the house was preparation for an estate sale.

I don't think we know how much the cops know about Saul's involvement.  I would think Saul would pay attention to see if he's a wanted man in NM. 

[LittleIggy]

Howard’s scene with Cary was very revealing. He was kind and considerate to the new young employee.

[millennium]

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

Forgiving someone has exactly nothing to do with refraining from engaging in a complex revenge scheme which entails trying to falsely convince 3rd parties that the target of revenge is engaged in criminal activity, or drugging that target without their knowledge. Kim didn't to forgive  Howard to avoid engaging in those wholly unethical and illegal behaviors.

Well, it's a TV show.  Characters on shows often behave in ways that are larger than life.   If TV characters adhered to a moral code, or moderated their behavior according to the practical, reasonable expectations of polite society, it wouldn't be very interesting.  Doesn't Saul suggest Walt send Hank to Belize?  Didn't he suggest Walt and Jesse kill Badger?   We already know his moral compass doesn't point north.   Why should this relatively harmless caper against Howard (at least as planned) seem so shocking or objectionable?

[aghst]

I don't know, I guess they had to wrap things up so many of these BCS characters were going to die.

Seems pretty random, Howard is there when Lalo shows up.

Guess they wanted to stop having his character on the show so they just abruptly ended him.  If Howard survived, after what goes down in the BB timeline, it would make Saul's escape almost impossible so maybe he had to die so that at least Gene could try to hide under plain sight.

Jimmy played the con to destroy his brother but he wasn't as hardcore about destroying Howard.  I don't even remember how she learned what Jimmy could do but she made sure they finished this job.

They kind of glamorized Slipping' Jimmy, his grift was for survival and then for justice after the way Chuck treated him.  At some point though, the grift became about ruining people, breaking them.

Gould and Gilligan may perform fan service again, make sure Saul and Kim get their just desserts.

[Bannon]

13 minutes ago, millennium said:

Well, it's a TV show.  Characters on shows often behave in ways that are larger than life.   If TV characters adhered to a moral code, or moderated their behavior according to the practical, reasonable expectations of polite society, it wouldn't be very interesting.  Doesn't Saul suggest Walt send Hank to Belize?  Didn't he suggest Walt and Jesse kill Badger?   We already know his moral compass doesn't point north.   Why should this relatively harmless caper against Howard (at least as planned) seem so shocking or objectionable?

It's not shocking in the least. It's objectionable because drugging people is shitty. It's not made less shitty by the person doing shittier things. Yes, this is fiction. Great fiction, which this is, illuminates our reality.

[Bannon]

3 minutes ago, aghst said:

I don't know, I guess they had to wrap things up so many of these BCS characters were going to die.

Seems pretty random, Howard is there when Lalo shows up.

Guess they wanted to stop having his character on the show so they just abruptly ended him.  If Howard survived, after what goes down in the BB timeline, it would make Saul's escape almost impossible so maybe he had to die so that at least Gene could try to hide under plain sight.

Jimmy played the con to destroy his brother but he wasn't as hardcore about destroying Howard.  I don't even remember how she learned what Jimmy could do but she made sure they finished this job.

They kind of glamorized Slipping' Jimmy, his grift was for survival and then for justice after the way Chuck treated him.  At some point though, the grift became about ruining people, breaking them.

Gould and Gilligan may perform fan service again, make sure Saul and Kim get their just desserts.

I think it's a story about there being no innocent cons. Yeah, cheating greedy A-holes that are encountered in bars, who think they are running a con, is funny, and there's no need to feel sorry for the greedy A-holes. It still corrupts the person engaged in it, however.

[sistermagpie]

13 minutes ago, aghst said:

I don't know, I guess they had to wrap things up so many of these BCS characters were going to die.

Seems pretty random, Howard is there when Lalo shows up.

Guess they wanted to stop having his character on the show so they just abruptly ended him.  If Howard survived, after what goes down in the BB timeline, it would make Saul's escape almost impossible so maybe he had to die so that at least Gene could try to hide under plain sight.

Both these things seemed a lot more organic to me. In terms of Howard being there when Lalo was, it wasn't really random given the timeline. That is, we knew why both of them were showing up at around those times and it had been moving to that the whole day.

But in terms of him dying, it seems like it would be pretty easy to have him still around in the BB timeline. He and Saul could easily have just not had anything to do with each other by then. Even the events of this ep could have been the last we saw of Howard. His parting words to Jimmy would have been his goodbye without him choosing anything like revenge. That would have just left Jimmy feeling a little guilty but probably quickly telling himself Howard was fine.

Instead the show seemed to deliberately want this to be the moment that brought all the chickens home to roost at once so Jimmy couldn't tell himself it was okay, but at the same time it was an accident that Jimmy couldn't have foreseen--and it happened right after this guy had told him Chuck was right about him and he had no soul, proving the point.

[scenario]

30 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Both these things seemed a lot more organic to me. In terms of Howard being there when Lalo was, it wasn't really random given the timeline. That is, we knew why both of them were showing up at around those times and it had been moving to that the whole day.

But in terms of him dying, it seems like it would be pretty easy to have him still around in the BB timeline. He and Saul could easily have just not had anything to do with each other by then. Even the events of this ep could have been the last we saw of Howard. His parting words to Jimmy would have been his goodbye without him choosing anything like revenge. That would have just left Jimmy feeling a little guilty but probably quickly telling himself Howard was fine.

Instead the show seemed to deliberately want this to be the moment that brought all the chickens home to roost at once so Jimmy couldn't tell himself it was okay, but at the same time it was an accident that Jimmy couldn't have foreseen--and it happened right after this guy had told him Chuck was right about him and he had no soul, proving the point.

I think Howard's death is part of the last straw that get's rid of what's left of Jimmy and creates Saul. 

[dwmarch]

1 hour ago, LittleIggy said:

Howard’s scene with Cary was very revealing. He was kind and considerate to the new young employee.

And such timing too! Now that the new kid is the only one who knows the wisdom of the can trick (passed down from Chuck to Howard) I am pretty sure he's now the one in charge of HHM.

[Armchair Critic]

I will say this episode had me going through a lot of emotions, that was some good tv.

I laughed at Lalo peeking through the drain and during the scenes with Jimmy and the people involved in the photographs.

I yelled in excitement when Jimmy handed the photos to the PI, didn't see that coming.

But I was dreading when the stuff took effect on Howard and watched the mediation scene through my fingers.

Then when Lalo walked into the apartment I gasped and was so scared and then gasped again when Howard was shot.

[millennium]

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

It's not made less shitty by the person doing shittier things.

From a moral standpoint, no.  But the impact/shock value is certainly less.   Saul was, in many if not most cases, an accessory to the deaths in Breaking Bad.   He also proposed that problematic people be killed.   With that knowledge in mind, I can't find it in myself to be appalled that he slipped Howard a mickey or caused the man's colleagues to doubt his integrity.   Breaking Bad normalized far worse behavior on Saul's part.

Besides, weren't there one or two occasions in earlier seasons where Howard attempted to poison people's opinions of Jimmy?

Edited May 25, 2022 by millennium

[qtpye]

21 minutes ago, dwmarch said:

And such timing too! Now that the new kid is the only one who knows the wisdom of the can trick (passed down from Chuck to Howard) I am pretty sure he's now the one in charge of HHM.

[millennium]

57 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Instead the show seemed to deliberately want this to be the moment that brought all the chickens home to roost at once so Jimmy couldn't tell himself it was okay, but at the same time it was an accident that Jimmy couldn't have foreseen--and it happened right after this guy had told him Chuck was right about him and he had no soul, proving the point.

Rhea Seehorn said about this:

I mean, this is the embodiment of what Kim and Jimmy have been pretending is not true this whole season — that there are no consequences to their actions. That they’re not actually harming anyone, and now a person is dying at their feet, and I think that is a seismic shift that would happen in somebody when that goes down. It remains to be seen where Kim will go with that, what she will do with it. It’s traumatic.

Rhea Seehorn on Surprise Death in Midseason Finale 

[gallimaufry]

Howard being there at that specific moment is a massive coincidence.  I know Vince Gilligan's rule is that coincidences that get your characters out of trouble are bad but ones that get them into trouble are fine.  But it still does feel like a massive reach really.

However, in the broader sense, Howard getting caught up in all this was absolutely foreseeable (and, on this forum, foreseen).  They knew Lalo was out there when they started this -- and, again it's worth remembering how compressed the timeline is, to the point where "Bad Choice Road" happened 3-4 weeks ago. And Kim knew he was still a threat and that they were being watched by people in the cartel "game".  And yet, into this powder keg, they launched a plan which hinged on getting Howard to call a PI on Jimmy and for Howard to want to come after Jimmy and poke into his affairs, one of the most lurid of which involved the cartel.  Both of them know that Lalo has absolutely no problem killing civilians.  It's not that it was likely he would die but the possibility that he would stumble into something was never off the table entirely.

I actually wonder what their plan for damage controlling Howard was because he had said, predictably (despite "Namaste"), that he wouldn't let it drop and I believe him.  He might not be as effective at Chuck at figuring out Jimmy's angles but I think he would have been a difficult and thorny problem and the situation could easily have escalated to a point where they needed to be much more severe with Howard to end it.  

I tend to think that this is the path most of BCS would have gone down - more of a slow burn ending in chaos - but now we're at the end of the road, the rug needed to be pulled.  That does give it a different flavour from Chuck's death and frankly watching Jimmy and Kim this season hasn't been a whole lot of fun so watching them take further action against Howard would have been even more grim so this was a way of getting the audience back with Jimmy and Kim.  

Still, it fits the whole 0 to 100 feeling the show has had since mid-S5.  For me, as much as I love the show and most of the character progression has been spot on, there have been two major moral leaps that didn't feel earned: Jimmy deciding to take Lalo's offer and Kim deciding to go after Howard.  For all the mischief they've wreaked in previous years, these were the clear moral breaking points and this comeuppance was directed at both of these sins.

The problem is, the show wants to have its cake and eat it.  It's so often a show about process, about meticulously building the dominos and then toppling them over, but in this case it also wants the characters to be a bit opaque so there's an element of mystery.  But the risk with this is the process then isn't illuminating about character and it becomes... just process.  And this season has done a lot with Jimmy and Kim where they're running around doing things but even characters in the show are like, "Wait, why??".  I come back to episodes like "Five-O" and "Salud" which still had the slow, deliberate process stuff but absolutely gave us insight into Mike and Gus.  In the remaining six episodes, I hope we get new insights into Jimmy, Kim, Mike and Gus but I get the sense that Peter Gould thinks that explaining his characters cheapens them or would be disappointing which seems like a misstep to me.  (Especially since they deliberately had Mike answer the same question in "Bagman" and we still are debating the fact that the granddaughter excuse doesn't hold because we remember how he behaved in "Talk" and the start of S5 when he didn't have his battle with the cartel to focus his rage).

Still, my hope is that usually it's the explosion afterwards that really gets to the heart of matters.  Chuck's confrontations with Jimmy in 109, Kim in 208 and Jimmy again in 310 were all after things had exploded.  For that matter, "Ozymandias" was far more a character piece than "To'hajilee".  And whatever my disappointments about aspects of the way they've been handling the wrap-up, these are still the best writers in the business.

[Armchair Critic]

"Is this usually how they go?" that sweet old lady made me laugh.

[Razzberry]

Okay I just tried the soda can trick.  Shook the shit out of a can of carbonated sparkling water then turned it about 20 times.   It works! I did open it outside just in case, but it's not flat or foamy - more like I never shook it at all. 

Howard knew his way around beverages.  I'll miss him.

Edited May 25, 2022 by Razzberry

[Cinnabon]

On 5/23/2022 at 10:27 PM, SunnyBeBe said:

That’s too bad.  I never saw that.  I don’t mind spoilers at all.  I’ve only seen the last 5 minutes of tonight’s episode.  I’ll watch it all over at 11:00 p.m. or maybe tomorrow.  

I never saw any of that either. 🤷‍♀️

[Cinnabon]

On 5/23/2022 at 10:45 PM, Constantinople said:

Howard's death might the most brutal since Andrea's, which technically hasn't happened yet. With Jane a close third.

None of those come close to Hank’s death IMHO. I’m still in mourning, lol.

[Cinnabon]

On 5/24/2022 at 4:37 AM, millennium said:

Am I the only one who thought Howard's comeuppance was funny?   I laughed.   Jimmy and Kim having sex while listening in ... it made perfect sense to me.   For four seasons they were condescended to and beaten down by self-righteous tools like Howard and Chuck, who, while they may have had one or two admirable qualities, were incorrigible pricks regardless.

Jimmy and Kim only did what many of us wish we could do to some of the assholes in our lives.   The Ken Wins of the world.  Jimmy and Kim are anti-heroes and I was cheering them on all the way.   Even Howard grudgingly admired them in the end, their determination, their dedication to taking him down.    They didn't plan for Howard to die.   They never envisioned that outcome.   How can they be blamed for it?  Sure, Howard wouldn't have been at their apartment if not for their hijinks but they're not psychic.  Lalo, on the other hand, is psychotic, so maybe, just maybe he can be blamed for Howard's death instead.

Yes, I did find myself grinning a bit when their plan went off without a hitch. I had no clue that Howard’s PI was in on it! It was an awful thing they did, but the plan was brilliant in its own way. And I agree, they didn’t want Howard to die. And they all knew, including Howard, that he would get past this and be ok (well, if Lalo hadn’t shown up!) Kim absolutely wanted Howard to GTFU when Lalo appeared, there’s no doubt in my mind about that. But this is a tragedy and we’re here to watch it play out.

ETA - after being sickened all day by the real life news and state of the world, I appreciated this for the great TV that it is.

[Cinnabon]

23 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

Jimmy and Kim are going to have a much harder time rationalizing how that was for the greater good.

I don’t think they’re even going to try to convince themselves of that. Flawed as they are, they know Howard’s death was tragic and undeserved.

[Cinnabon]

22 hours ago, anoninrva said:

Howard wouldn't have any powder burns from a self-inflicted gunshot wound.  Lalo's also missing resources to clean up a body.  I'm also wondering how they'll resolve this.

Call Mike, the fixer? He took care of everything when Jane died.

[Cinnabon]

20 hours ago, scenario said:

Kim and Saul don't really deserve a happily ever after unless it's after a long prison sentence. 

Neither did Jesse after shooting Gale in the face, but he eventually got away (after about a year in hell). I don’t think any of these characters end up happy, even if they survive and stay out of prison.

[Cinnabon]

20 hours ago, Bannon said:

Again, important people have their deaths very deeply investigated. There is not a world where Cliff and his secretary are not asked about the strange happenings in Howard's last few days, including weird stuff involving a PI, even if they think Howard was a drug addict or murdered by a serial killer.

Is he really that important, though? He was a wealthy lawyer with his own firm, but there are many of those in this country. 

[cmfran]

Can someone remind me why Lalo keeps visiting Saul? I know Saul represented him last season, retrieved the bail $ in Mexico, etc., but I don't recall why Lalo might still have an issue with him.

[DrSpaceman73]

I assume they'll make Howard's death look like a suicide,  which would fit with his story

[Cinnabon]

19 hours ago, scenario said:

Lalo is currently living in a sewer.

Why did this just make me laugh out loud? It is just batshit crazy.

[Wiendish Fitch]

Quote

Lalo is currently living in a sewer.

Where he belongs.

What? The predictable response isn't necessarily wrong. 

[Cinnabon]

19 hours ago, peeayebee said:

However, the main reason, I believe, that Lalo killed him is to scare K&J. After all, the last time he visited the apartment, he left them alive. He needs their services, whatever those would be, and by putting the fear of God in them, he guarantees they'll cooperate.

Exactly this.

[Cinnabon]

18 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

A couple of sociopaths that like to hurt people for kicks.

They’re not great people,  but they’re not sociopaths, either. 

[JudyObscure]

6 hours ago, Bannon said:

It's not shocking in the least. It's objectionable because drugging people is shitty. It's not made less shitty by the person doing shittier things. Yes, this is fiction. Great fiction, which this is, illuminates our reality.

Yes, a thousand times yes.  This comparison thing comes up all the time with these shows and I don't  get it.  No one could ever criticize Skylar without being told that Walt was worse. 

Can't they both be bad? She was so controlling her husband didn't get to decide when to come to the table much less who got to know about his cancer or even what medical treatment he would get.  The vile way she ruined the owner of the carwash was always countered with what a jerk the guy had been. Skylar couldn't even let her son keep the car he loved because Walt gave it to him without her permission -- it could easily have been explained by a donor from their go-fund-me page.

It would seem women are only responsible entities in relation to the men they deal with and so fragile they can't bear criticism. Yet it's their detractors who are called misogynists. Neither Skylar nor Kim have any real excuses for what they did.

[Constantinople]

10 hours ago, millennium said:

Howard was an asshole because it pleased him to be, and then went on his journey of frank self assessment and improvement because it pleased him to do that, too.  

Good for Howard.  He can sleep better at night.   It doesn't mean his earlier treatment of people has to be forgotten, or even forgiven by those he wronged.   It's up to the individual.  Some probably would forgive him.   Others ... maybe not.

5 hours ago, millennium said:

Besides, weren't there one or two occasions in earlier seasons where Howard attempted to poison people's opinions of Jimmy?

You're the one arguing Howard wronged Jimmy and Kim. Shouldn't you be the one to point out how?

Perhaps Howard wronged Jimmy, but Howard was Chuck's business partner, not Jimmy's. Jimmy is not entitled to work at HHM. Even then Howard helped Jimmy get a position at Davis & Main so that he could still work on Sandpiper, so Howard violated the spirit of Chuck's veto of working with Jimmy, if not the letter. Howard easily could have torpedoed Jimmy's chance at Davis & Main, but he didn't. Jimmy torpedoed himself at Davis & Main later.

As for Kim, Howard put her in doc review a couple of times, in my opinion unjustifiably. That does not justify her drugging Howard, trying to ruin his reputation or manipulating the Sandpiper plaintiffs into accepting a lowball settlement. That's not just morally wrong, but if her behavior was proven, she'd be in jail and have her law license revoked, as would Jimmy.

If Kim will hold a grudge that long to the point where she'd rather see Howard lose than herself win by working with that legal aid foundation, perhaps she she should reflect on how Howard helped her. Before HHM paid for her law school, she wasn't in doc review. She was making photocopies for the people in doc review.

That doesn't mean Kim owes Howard lifelong fealty, but there is something seriously wrong with Kim and Jimmy getting sexually aroused over what they did to Howard and the Sandpiper residents.

Even Kim and Jimmy seem to have some inkling of this. Even before Lalo showed up, they wanted Howard to leave. Not because Howard was telling lies about the kind of people they are, but because he was telling the truth.

[Cinnabon]

14 hours ago, gallimaufry said:

The can trick was awesome.  Also we saw lots of Howard's skills - his ability to remember even little interpersonal details.

As well as his ability to manipulate (while still coming across as “charming”), by insisting that Irene be wheeled into the meeting.

[Gobi]

4 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

As well as his ability to manipulate (while still coming across as “charming”), by insisting that Irene be wheeled into the meeting.

That was a false note to me. No attorney in a firm such as HHM would pull a stunt like that (if for no other reason than because it could be construed as fraud on the court). That's an ambulance chasing, Saul Goodman type of stunt.

[Cinnabon]

10 hours ago, millennium said:

Howard was an asshole because it pleased him to be, and then went on his journey of frank self assessment and improvement because it pleased him to do that, too.  

Good for Howard.  He can sleep better at night.   It doesn't mean his earlier treatment of people has to be forgotten, or even forgiven by those he wronged.   It's up to the individual.  Some probably would forgive him.   Others ... maybe not.

Howard telling Jimmy that Chuck suffered before he died was intentionally and exceptionally cruel. It would be hard to forgive him for that.

[Bannon]

17 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

Yes, a thousand times yes.  This comparison thing comes up all the time with these shows and I don't  get it.  No one could ever criticize Skylar without being told that Walt was worse. 

Can't they both be bad? She was so controlling her husband didn't get to decide when to come to the table much less who got to know about his cancer or even what medical treatment he would get.  The vile way she ruined the owner of the carwash was always countered with what a jerk the guy had been. Skylar couldn't even let her son keep the car he loved because Walt gave it to him without her permission -- it could easily have been explained by a donor from their go-fund-me page.

It would seem women are only responsible entities in relation to the men they deal with and so fragile they can't bear criticism. Yet it's their detractors who are called misogynists. Neither Skylar nor Kim have any real excuses for what they did.

I mostly agree, but there were the Skyler critics who were fans of Walt. That's pretty weird.

[Bannon]

55 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Is he really that important, though? He was a wealthy lawyer with his own firm, but there are many of those in this country. 

He is the senior partner in one of the largest law firms in one of the United States. He's very important in that state, and the people who investigate crimes within that state are going to be extremely devoted to investigating the circumstances surrounding his demise.

[Cinnabon]

47 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

Yes, a thousand times yes.  This comparison thing comes up all the time with these shows and I don't  get it.  No one could ever criticize Skylar without being told that Walt was worse. 

Some people just love their whataboutisms, now more than ever. It can be infuriating. I often ask them if they think 2 wrongs make a right. 
 

Regarding Skylar and BB, I saw misogyny when people judged Skylar so harshly but cheered on Walt. And the things she was often criticized for were little things, instead of the truly despicable ones. I see the same in some of the criticisms of Kim. Independent, assertive, highly educated, dominant, unemotional, headstrong women really trigger some people, even though they see the same traits in a man as acceptable and positive.  

Edited May 25, 2022 by Cinnabon