formerlyfreedom May 3, 2022 Share May 3, 2022 Quote With just hours until the Europa Launch, Picard and the crew find themselves in a race against time to save the future. Season finale dropping Thursday, May 5, 2022. Link to comment
millennium May 5, 2022 Share May 5, 2022 I called it in the episode 3 thread, once removed: The Watcher won't turn out to be Wesley Crusher-as-a-Traveler, will it? As for the episode, shamelessly tugging on a few heartstrings doesn't make up for a generally abysmal season. I think if Season 2 had consisted of a single episode, just one hour, of Picard and Q sitting on a mountaintop discussing the meaning of life and death, I would have been eminently satisfied. Instead we got ten episodes of needless chatter and endless running around. My greatest disappointment was that Soong wasn't killed painfully. "Project Khan" indeed (said in my Dr. Smith voice). Did anyone else think Agnes' final form looked like the Most Boring Cenobite of them all? She just stood there on the bridge, not moving like Melvin Belli. It seemed like really bad CGI. Guinan referred to "Auntie Renee" finding the alien organism that enabled Ricardo Rios to heal the ocean and clean the skies. Did I miss something? Rios and Renee never met. How does she become the kid's "Auntie?" 1 1 14 Link to comment
greekmom May 5, 2022 Share May 5, 2022 @millennium you called it. I have to say that Spoiler Seeing Wesley as the watcher almost made up for this dumpster of a series. I wish there was some interaction with him and Picard. If they only cut out all the crap of young JL. Borgifide Agnes really sucked. How did Q regain his powers?! Hmmmm? I agree how did Rios and Renee meet? Or for that matter Guinan and Renee?! 1 3 Link to comment
cambridgeguy May 5, 2022 Share May 5, 2022 Say, isn't World War III supposed to start soon in the Trek timeline? Hope you enjoy that Rios. Of course, you'll have plenty of time to prep since you have no documentation, no rich friends, and nothing but the clothes on your back. Good luck finding a job to help your overworked and underpaid girlfriend. 1 10 Link to comment
Zonk May 5, 2022 Share May 5, 2022 Ugh, this was exhaustingly stupid. Not just the episode, but the whole season. But to the episode: They really have no way to save not-Laris from a Neurotxin? Her transporter doesn't have a Biofilter? That sacrifice was just dumb. They leave Soong just roaming around? You know, he could just kill Rene and get the alien life form when she gets back, with the unrestricted access he seems to have. I mean he should be dead, because the dumbass touched the neurotoxin-pad with his bare fingers, but apparently he survived it. The timeline doesn't work at all with what was previously established in Trek, but these writers don't know and don't care. At the end Q says that he told Picard from the beginning "that this was all about forgiveness", which is bullshit, he said this was about "penance". They even reiterated it in the previously on. What a massive fuckup. Also why is Q dying alone? He has a whole Continuum. He even has a son. As far as I know, as we left off, the continuum even judged that Q would have to watch over his son for all eternity. So where is he? These writers never watched Voyager and only skimmed TNG, didn't they? "Who I am is a long story." Proceeds to tell it in two sentences. Shut up Wesley! So now that it is established that this timeline has always been this way, that it was predestined, bullet holes in the chateau and all, why didn't Guinan remember that she met Picard in the 1800s? Let me guess. The answer is as always: These writers don't know Star Trek. 55 minutes ago, greekmom said: How did Q regain his powers?! Hmmmm? Don't you know, massive plot contrivance is a free action and requires almost no power! 2 1 11 Link to comment
MissLucas May 5, 2022 Share May 5, 2022 (edited) If I had Q-like powers I would put an embargo on sci-fi show writers using time-travel plots for at least the next two decades.* Not even going to discuss the butterfly massacre this episode alone created. The good: the jacket Kore was wearing in the library *want* and yes, that's on top of my priority list after watching Santiago Cabrera is free for other projects (unless they bring him back as Rios' great-great etc. grandson, ugh) Seven got a commission - sadly she'll probably never be allowed to carry a major plot since this show is called 'Picard' We got Elnor back but there was never any doubt that would happen I enjoyed seeing Not Wesley Crusher again more than I should have The resolution of the Soong plot with him moving on to project Khan, sorta The bad I guess Alison Pill has not managed to break free as they've just set up the main threat/plot for season 3 Oh Laris, be wary of Hallmark endings provided by Q The ugly See above mentioned butterfly massacre The massive retcon: Picard was guilt tripping his whole life. One could write a whole paper on the philosophical ramifications of that. A paper original flavor Picard would appreciate. * I'd make an exception for Doctor Who because the show gave us timey-wimey and knows how to poke fun at its own premise. Edited May 5, 2022 by MissLucas 8 Link to comment
Chaos Theory May 5, 2022 Share May 5, 2022 (edited) Wow I must be the only person to really like this season. Maybe because I don’t hate new trek out of spite. Maybe because I like the idea of season 2 essentially being about what made Picard Picard. Of course the show had its issues. I still think it should have spent more time digging into Seven vs Annika Hansen and having her run into an ancestor of hers just for a moment. I did like Alison Pill this season and her storyline was probably the most interesting. Picard and Q should not have been as sweet as they were. But then they have a weird and complicated history. I don’t mind Rios staying in the past/current era. Giving him a happy ending was a good thing to do. You don’t need to read too much into it. Yes the future for him is probably hard and complicated but he is happier then being alone with a bunch of holographs that look like him. All in all I give if a thumbs up. Edited May 5, 2022 by Chaos Theory 1 17 Link to comment
KeithJ May 5, 2022 Share May 5, 2022 (edited) On 5/5/2022 at 7:41 AM, greekmom said: How did Q regain his powers?! Hmmmm? Maybe he just had to recharge? Everything with Soong really bothered me. "My donations don't get me five minutes with the crew?". No, they don't. They're quarantined for a reason. Then, he just leaves his escort and is allowed to walk around the facility freely? How do we not get a single scene with Wesley and Picard? Or is that now setting up season 3? Also, I don't remember anything about the watchers but couldn't they fix what was happening with the timeline? Or are they just, what the name implies, watchers? I'm never one for overly sappy endings but we don't even get Picard kissing Laris at the end? Overall, the season was just ok. This episode redeemed it for me. Spoiler Hopefully TNG season 8 will be better. Edited May 7, 2022 by saoirse Spoiler tag added 2 1 7 Link to comment
paigow May 5, 2022 Share May 5, 2022 Kore has no super powers... O.G. Wesley was able to freeze time - so he was selected. All the other Travelers must be dying, so Wes is desperate for recruits... 3 Link to comment
greekmom May 5, 2022 Share May 5, 2022 (edited) What really is bothering me is the militia half Borgafide that are still running around. Did i miss what happened to them?? Did Rios unborgify them? Having them alive with memories of what aggie the "borgie" did to them cause a butterfly effect? If they did kill them, wouldn't that also create a butterfly effect? Rios could come back. Guinan never said if they had a child or not. As previously speculated, he could be his own ancestor. Edited May 5, 2022 by greekmom 1 3 Link to comment
paigow May 5, 2022 Share May 5, 2022 2 minutes ago, greekmom said: What really is bothering me is the militia half Borgafide that are still running around. Did i miss what happened to them?? Did Rios unborgify them? Seven beamed many of them into the chateau walls... She and Raffi STABBED the others to death... 3 1 6 Link to comment
Zaffy May 5, 2022 Share May 5, 2022 (edited) I really liked the finale! There are probably some plot holes but I loved most of it, like the Q scenes with Picard, the Borg Joining the federation, Seven on captain's chair and Whesley! I am not going to nitpick it, emotionally I am covered, plus I never try to put any logic in any time travel story in any series/film. Maybe the season should be a couple of episodes less, they didn't seem to have enough story for all 10 episodes so they dragged it a bit. Oh, and De Lancie was amazing in all of his scenes. I will miss the old bugger and his chats with Picard. I will miss Rios... Edited May 5, 2022 by Zaffy 1 12 Link to comment
salaydouk May 5, 2022 Share May 5, 2022 (edited) What the bleep was that!??!?! I mean seriously what the bleep was that episode?!?!??!?! Because I mean... Auntie Renee?!??! Aside from running up to Picard after Soong ran him over with Renee standing over them, how did Rios and Renee ever meet? Guinan knowing Rios and Teresa?!?!? When exactly did that happen? Or did she just keep tabs on them? But if it was the latter then how or why would she have a picture of them? Teresa and Ricardo back at the Chateau? Huh? The last we saw them they were in Talinn's apartment... and when the crew went back to the apartment not only were they not there, but if you looked the bed was perfectly made like they had left. And honestly if I was Teresa after the day that I had just had and after effectively being "dumped" I would have left that apartment asap and definitely _not_ made the bed. Q dissolved down to all those years of harassing Picard to be based on "because he liked Picard"?!?! Seriously?!?! Whiskey Tango Foxtrot! And now that he is dying alone he wants to make sure that his BFF doesn't either? And how did he even get his powers back to get to France?!?! And to send them all back? After having the whole season distilled down to Picard figuring out it is okay to have a girlfriend, we don't even get the sappy sloppy kiss at the end??!?! Wesley Crusher dissing on his own name was he basically saying he wasn't human anymore?!?!? Wesley Crusher not even showing up? And if he was what he said he was, then why wouldn't he want to find Picard? Or was it he might not have existed unless the time line was restored? Because I believe he showed up just after the launch with Renee on board was confirmed to have occurred. And huge swaths of ST cannon has just been completely ret-conned. So now does Guinan remember both timelines and have memories of meeting Picard in 1890s and also in 2024? How does she reconcile that in her mind?!? And so Rios was happy in the past... But why not take the two of them back with him?!?! He knew the history and that WWII was coming in 30 years!?!?! Why would he want to stay in the past with them instead of take them to the future?!? And since they stayed in the past... well great for him but - did his resultant family survive the Eugenics Wars, WWIII, etc.... Honestly again I wanted the sappy payoff of his 8x great grandson walking into the bar to meet Picard since he would have known it was now "okay" to meet him without dorking the timeline. And say you know see that he was a Starfleet Captain and was you know told he was just given command of the Stargazer!!!!!! And why did it take the Borg to tell Starfleet and the Federation that there was a "Galactic Destruction Event" about to occur?!?! I mean with all the sensors/monitoring that is going on they didn't see that huge sucker?!?! And my biggest beef Seven getting a field promotion to Captain!?!?! That is the same bleep as Kirk going from Cadet to Captain. ARGH!!! And it is made even more unbelievable/worse here, which I did not think was possible because - to start in order to get a field promotion to any rank, you HAVE TO BE IN the service, you can only be promoted at most TWO ranks, and they are given usually for outstanding performance on the battlefield. None of which is true for Seven. So what the bleep and then on top of that she did not do _anything_ that Picard himself or even Raffi was capable of doing. Raffi already a Commander would have been more appropriate to field promote! Also where is the Stargazer XO?!?!? He would have become acting captain at the point and there was NO reason to promote anyone. Also I don't believe Picard had command authority to give a field promotion and make that person the captain of the ship. He was at most the mission leader and was _not_ in the operational chain of command of the ship. ARGH! And I will say it again.. I feel used and abuse by this show. I was asked to care about characters that they just p!$$ed away and then threw away! Edited May 5, 2022 by salaydouk 16 Link to comment
paigow May 5, 2022 Share May 5, 2022 35 minutes ago, salaydouk said: Also where is the Stargazer XO?!?!? He would have become acting captain at the point and there was NO reason to promote anyone. Maybe Agnes killed him before Picard cancelled auto-destruct... Link to comment
salaydouk May 5, 2022 Share May 5, 2022 11 minutes ago, paigow said: Maybe Agnes killed him before Picard cancelled auto-destruct... Remember they said in Episode 2.01 that the BQ was just stunning people not killing them. 2 1 1 Link to comment
millennium May 5, 2022 Share May 5, 2022 9 hours ago, Chaos Theory said: Wow I must be the only person to really like this season. Maybe because I don’t hate new trek out of spite. I hate new Trek (read Discovery) because it is awful, not out of spite. In the case of Picard, the writers have displayed laziness and/or disinterest, blatant disregard for Picard's history, and an alarming lack of talent. They were handed one of the most iconic figures in sci-fi history and still couldn't manage to create a cohesive, compelling story. They know one trick -- when the plot stops breathing, resuscitate it by inserting a TNG cameo. 9 hours ago, paigow said: Seven beamed many of them into the chateau walls... She and Raffi STABBED the others to death... At one point last episode, didn't Seven shout something like "They're not human, they're Borg!" How does that jibe with the Borg rehab program we saw in Season 1 where Icheb was working to restore Borg victims to something like their original selves? And wasn't that what Seven did with Icheb when she first met him and the other Borg kids on Voyager? And what about Seven herself? She was Borg and yet she was saved. The "they're not human, they're Borg" mindset reminds me of First Contact where Captain Ahab Picard murders members of his own crew after they were turned Borg, proclaiming it was better they should die even after he HIMSELF had been restored to being human. 10 hours ago, MissLucas said: The massive retcon: Picard was guilt tripping his whole life. It's too bad he never met someone like Deanna Troi who would have sensed that and helped him with it. 9 14 Link to comment
MissLucas May 5, 2022 Share May 5, 2022 12 minutes ago, millennium said: It's too bad he never met someone like Deanna Troi who would have sensed that and helped him with it. Too be fair we could handwave that because Deanna never even noticed her mother repressing memories of Troi's dead sister 🤷♀️ That said Picard acting out of guilt all his life should have caused red-flag rising behavior (of the self-destructive kind). And apart from being a young victim of testosterone poisoning I can't recall him doing anything of the sort, not until the Borg showed up at least. 1 3 1 Link to comment
WalrusGirl May 5, 2022 Share May 5, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, Chaos Theory said: Wow I must be the only person to really like this season. Maybe because I don’t hate new trek out of spite. Um, I got CBS All Access (then) JUST out of excitement for Picard, and liked the first season - it was different and certainly a better viewing experience binging multiple episodes at a time, vs one per week - and LOVE Q and de Lancie, so desperately wanted and expected to enjoy this season similarly to last season - sure, it'll be different and better binged, but whatever. But a lot of this season was just legitimately bad, and I damn near couldn't make it through one episode and actually asked myself, alone, out loud, several times what the *hell* was was watching, and really had a hard time powering through that episode without turning it off. Point being it isn't that I hate new trek. 🤷🏻♀️ There were some really enjoyable scenes for me this season, the problem being *scenes* rather than *episodes*. It seemed to have even more filler than season one, and as far as I'm concerned the "blatant filler" parts to any show need to be massively watchable/entertaining. I don't think they had 10 episodes worth of material, or needed 10 rather than five episodes to tell this story well, in which case do it in five and give us stand alone or a second arc for the rest of the season. And I sort of just can't with Brent Spiner playing a billionty different roles, but fine, that's a carry over from TNG/ENT that every single Soong ancestor looks exactly like him, fair enough. But casting additional series regulars as totally different characters (it's at least Spiner, Isa Briones, and Orla Brady) because they can't figure out how to work the latter two into their story gets to feeling actively gimmicky, watching Briones as a totally new, unrelated character still be Not!Data's daughter, etc. I don't want them killed or written off, and Brady certainly had a much better role this way and I really enjoy both of their work, but when you have something like a third of the cast playing totally new characters, without even being under prosthetics (like, this isn't a Jeffrey Combs situation) so they LOOK IDENTICAL, felt extremely cheap and like it was going for a vibe or effect that never happened (because the other 2/3 of the cast were still their regular characters/roles), on *top* of a lot of very repetitive crap. de Lancie was amazing this episode; that scene with Picard, their farewell, that look on his face/in his eyes, and the sound effect of that last snap definitely got me. We didn't need an awful lot of what we got (super repetitively, again) to get there, but the plot actually moving along this episode, and Q, really worked for me. They don't need to save "pertinent things actually happen" for the finale. Ideally more than five minutes of story would happen each 45 min episode. But this episode certainly helped to cleanse my palate, and I'd be less frustrated with the show had I watched it in 2-3 chunks rather than going episode by episode the second half of the season to avoid spoilers. Other shows do season-long stories so, so, so much better, and have been for two decades now, so it's frustrating to me, the pacing and poor decisions as to where to start and stop episodes, etc. This style of television isn't new and experimental. 😞 Oh! And Wil Wheaton/Wesley showing up also thrilled me, that that TNG actor has been included in Canon Picard, so was a really great surprise. He and de Lancie's performance, along with Tallin's storyline this ep, had me really pretty fully enjoy this one. Finally. 5 hours ago, Zonk said: So now that it is established that this timeline has always been this way, that it was predestined, bullet holes in the chateau and all, why didn't Guinan remember that she met Picard in the 1800s? Let me guess. The answer is as always: These writers don't know Star Trek. This continues to really bother me too. 2 hours ago, salaydouk said: Teresa and Ricardo back at the Chateau? Huh? The last we saw them they were in Talinn's apartment... and when the crew went back to the apartment not only were they not there, but if you looked the bed was perfectly made like they had left. And honestly if I was Teresa after the day that I had just had and after effectively being "dumped" I would have left that apartment asap and definitely _not_ made the bed. Yup, Teresa and Ricardo just left Not!Laris's apartment and, what, hopped a flight then rented a car to the chateau in France? Presumably Picard went back to the apartment to use the transporter (...and maybe clean up the tech there? But fine, I can accept her supervisors/superiors handle that kind of thing), but Teresa and Ricardo were definitely gone from the apartment. But hey, Picard was cool watching the ship fly off last ep without having any idea what had gone down or was going on, but apparently was magically in the know, so 🤷🏻♀️. 2 hours ago, salaydouk said: And my biggest beef Seven getting a field promotion to Captain!?!?! That is the same bleep as Kirk going from Cadet to Captain. ARGH!!! And it is made even more unbelievable/worse here, which I did not think was possible because - to start in order to get a field promotion to any rank, you HAVE TO BE IN the service, you can only be promoted at most TWO ranks, and they are given usually for outstanding performance on the battlefield. None of which is true for Seven. So what the bleep and then on top of that she did not do _anything_ that Picard himself or even Raffi was capable of doing. Raffi already a Commander would have been more appropriate to field promote! Also where is the Stargazer XO?!?!? He would have become acting captain at the point and there was NO reason to promote anyone. Also I don't believe Picard had command authority to give a field promotion and make that person the captain of the ship. He was at most the mission leader and was _not_ in the operational chain of command of the ship. ARGH! I didn't read it as Seven's field promotion being permanent, but circumstantial while in the field for this. Picard's back in Starfleet (head of the academy now, right?), so as admiral outranked the rest and basically just put Seven in charge of leading the current task. I really didn't interpret it as "and now you have a permanent commission to captain." But that it was frankly only even phrased the way it was for the sentimental value/"payoff" after her recent reveal that she'd tried to join Starfleet after Voyager but been rejected. (We'll presumably see in season three, but my read wasn't at all that any of them expect Seven to just be a Starfleet captain now. She was just put in charge of the ship and officers/decisions, as acting captain, for THIS endeavor.) Edited May 5, 2022 by WalrusGirl 1 8 Link to comment
millennium May 5, 2022 Share May 5, 2022 (edited) If Alice tweaked the Borg's primary directive in 2024, does that mean Locutis and Alice Krige and all of that never happened? And if that's the case, why didn't Seven vanish, or at the very least lose her implants again? She never would have been captured and assimilated by the Borg under Borgati's reign. And why were Picard and the rest of the fleet alarmed when a Borg ship appeared in episode 1, since Alice's reset of the timeline would have left them with no ill will towards the Borg. Ugh. Edited May 5, 2022 by millennium 1 7 Link to comment
Stardancer Supreme May 5, 2022 Share May 5, 2022 (edited) On 5/5/2022 at 11:20 AM, paigow said: Kore has no super powers... O.G. Wesley was able to freeze time - so he was selected. All the other Travelers must be dying, so Wes is desperate for recruits... Well, the Watchers did lose Tallinn. So of course Kore was a natural fit. This was a neat bow to wrap this season in; however, the story could have been arranged much better. On 5/5/2022 at 7:41 AM, greekmom said: @millennium you called it. I have to say that Hide contents Seeing Wesley as the watcher almost made up for this dumpster of a series. I wish there was some interaction with him and Picard. If they only cut out all the crap of young JL. Borgifide Agnes really sucked. How did Q regain his powers?! Hmmmm? I agree how did Rios and Renee meet? Or for that matter Guinan and Renee?! I was under the impression that Q used the last of his life to send JLP, Raffi, and Seven back to where this whole thing started. Q wasn't being malicious; he just wanted to spend time with his favorite human before he died alone. I wonder where the Continuum is and did anything happen to them? I cheered seeing Wesley Traveler! I was also amazed that I wasn't spoiled about his appearance. Spoiler Since the TNG Gang will be back next season, hopefully we will see him there as well. Rios met Renee at the Gala. She knew that "Admiral" was with him, so I don't think it would be that out of bounds that they kept in touch. On 5/5/2022 at 1:58 PM, millennium said: It's too bad he never met someone like Deanna Troi who would have sensed that and helped him with it. Deanna Troi is only half Betazoid... And I did like that someone noticed that Rios was gone. But no one noticed that Raffi wasn't on the Excelsior? It seemed kinda odd that a cadet was left in charge of Raffi's ship, even though it meant that our Elnor was back. Edited May 7, 2022 by saoirse Spoiler tag added 3 Link to comment
Glade May 5, 2022 Share May 5, 2022 (edited) I really enjoyed season 1, but this was a disappointment. I never liked the Star Trek episodes that traveled back to the present time the series was filmed in; it always felt cheap to me, when I wanted to see space and new planets, etc. I get that Picard doesn't have the AR wall that makes Discovery and SNW look so incredible, because Picard is shot in LA, and this amazing tech is in Canada. But, they spent way too much time in the past, the gimmick became tiresome. Q should have at least mentioned his son, Q2, and why he isn't around. Will Weaton should have shaved off his beard, worn a wig; done anything to make Wesley the Time Lord look like less of a blatant smiling Will Wheaton wearing his own clothes standing in front of a green screen in his living room. . I like the idea of the Borg evolving into something else after Janeway blew them up, and the Jurati vs Borg Queen scenes were the best part of this season. But, I don't get how Jurati's metal-free alt-borg just co-exists with the actual borg for centuries leading up to this moment. Does this 'trans-warp conduit' play into next season? Is it the proper borg coming back to fight the alt-borg? But Alison Pill has announced she won't be back next season, so... I'm happy for Seven and Raffi, Picard and Laris; this episode had good emotional sendoffs even if the larger story beats didn't land. Edited May 5, 2022 by Glade 2 2 Link to comment
salaydouk May 5, 2022 Share May 5, 2022 (edited) 7 hours ago, Zonk said: So now that it is established that this timeline has always been this way, that it was predestined, bullet holes in the chateau and all, why didn't Guinan remember that she met Picard in the 1800s? Let me guess. The answer is as always: These writers don't know Star Trek. 4 hours ago, paigow said: Seven beamed many of them into the chateau walls... She and Raffi STABBED the others to death... Okay so if Picard remembers the bullet holes in the wall or the stories of them in the wall... Then why didn't he also have stories about bodies in the chateau walls!?!?!? I think Guinan now remember both events/meetings.. But before the timeline was restored she would not have met him in the 1890s. 1 hour ago, WalrusGirl said: I didn't read it as Seven's field promotion being permanent, but circumstantial while in the field for this. Picard's back in Starfleet (head of the academy now, right?), so as admiral outranked the rest and basically just put Seven in charge of leading the current task. I really didn't interpret it as "and now you have a permanent commission to captain." But that it was frankly only even phrased the way it was for the sentimental value/"payoff" after her recent reveal that she'd tried to join Starfleet after Voyager but been rejected. (We'll presumably see in season three, but my read wasn't at all that any of them expect Seven to just be a Starfleet captain now. She was just put in charge of the ship and officers/decisions, as acting captain, for THIS endeavor.) So again.. in order to get a field promotion you have to first be in the service! You cannot promote a civilian to any rank period. So that was a load of horse manure. Second Picard being an Admiral does not necessarily give him any operational control and the authority to make decisions on who does and doesn't command a ship. So by that I mean, and using the US Navy as the analogy, there are officers that are Line Officers and there are Staff officers. Line Officers(this comes from Ships of the Line when navel vessels would line up and the shoot cannonballs at the opposing fleet that were also in a line shooting back) are the ones that command ships and have operational authority to deploy sailors into combat. Staff Officers fill logistical or specialty roles - ie Doctors, Lawyers, Nurses, Clergy, etc - and they have no command authority at all whatsoever even in emergency situations. In his role as Head of the Academy Picard would be a Staff officer and would have no operational control at all and no power to give a field promotion just like it would not have been his call to initiate or deactivate the auto destruct order. Now I know that Trek has shown Troi and Crusher having command responsibilities. So perhaps Starfleet is different but even they both _are_ commissioned officers and taken the extra training necessary to have those responsibilities. But Seven has about absolutely none of that! So again a load of horse manure. Edited May 5, 2022 by salaydouk 1 1 2 Link to comment
millennium May 5, 2022 Share May 5, 2022 1 hour ago, Stardancer Supreme said: Q wasn't being malicious; he just wanted to spend time with his favorite human before he died alone. Yeah but ... didn't he task Soong to kill Picard? 1 Link to comment
paigow May 5, 2022 Share May 5, 2022 TOS!Khan left Earth around 1990... so Project Khan is already 40+ years old? 4 Link to comment
Stardancer Supreme May 5, 2022 Share May 5, 2022 29 minutes ago, millennium said: Yeah but ... didn't he task Soong to kill Picard? Q wanted to keep Renee Picard from going on the Europa Mission. Soong himself decided to use extreme prejudice. 1 3 Link to comment
paigow May 5, 2022 Share May 5, 2022 1 hour ago, salaydouk said: Staff Officers fill logistical or specialty roles - ie Doctors, Lawyers, Nurses, Clergy, etc - and they have no command authority at all whatsoever even in emergency situations. In his role as Head of the Academy Picard would be a Staff officer and would have no operational control at all and no power to give a field promotion Chain of Command violations are the least egregious things these writers inflicted upon us... however, there is TOS precedent for this.. .https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Stocker Commodore Stocker was the newly appointed Commander of Starbase 10. He was being ferried there by Kirk when all the senior officers - Kirk, Spock & Scotty- became unfit for duty. Stocker - a career administrator / bureaucrat - assumed command - despite a healthy Sulu & Chekhov on board- and promptly violated the Neutral Zone, setting up a Kobayashi Maru situation. 1 Link to comment
starri May 5, 2022 Share May 5, 2022 I'm out of the country on vacation, so used a VPN to download the episode to watch by the pool. I'll have more to say later, but "Q made me cry" is not a sentence I thought I would type and especially that I would mean, but here we are. One other thing: Jerry Goldsmith's beautiful First Contact theme is probably my favorite piece of ST music, and hearing it during the scene in 10 Forward just hit me in all of the feels. 10 Link to comment
Zonk May 6, 2022 Share May 6, 2022 8 hours ago, Chaos Theory said: Maybe because I don’t hate new trek out of spite. Yes, when one of my favourite franchises came back after years of nothing I was so super spitefull. I hated them so much for bringing it back! How could they?! It's not like I was super excited about it and it just turned out to be a huge pile of dogshit or anything. Discovery and Picard have just been trash. It is how it is. Lower Decks is good. The first episode of Strange New Worlds was good. But I won't get my hopes up for that one yet. 3 hours ago, salaydouk said: Okay so if Picard remembers the bullet holes in the wall or the stories of them in the wall... Then why didn't he also have stories about bodies in the chateau walls!?!?!? Bad writing. 3 hours ago, salaydouk said: I think Guinan now remember both events/meetings.. But before the timeline was restored she would not have met him in the 1890s. The timeline was never broken. This always happened. It just doesn't make sense. 5 hours ago, millennium said: I hate new Trek (read Discovery) because it is awful, not out of spite. In the case of Picard, the writers have displayed laziness and/or disinterest, blatant disregard for Picard's history, and an alarming lack of talent. They were handed one of the most iconic figures in sci-fi history and still couldn't manage to create a cohesive, compelling story. They know one trick -- when the plot stops breathing, resuscitate it by inserting a TNG cameo. I think a huge problem was that they gave Patrick Stewart way too much creative control. In season one he wanted to be an action hero and in season two he wanted to inject all his family drama. Both things that don't really fit Picard that much. On Tuesday night I saw the new Doctor Strange movie and it is astounding how he totally can play a character just like he did 22 years ago. I never doubted that that was Prof X who I was seeing. Picard on the other hand, I would have never recognised, if they didn't say his name 99 times an episode. 5 hours ago, millennium said: If Alice tweaked the Borg's primary directive in 2024, does that mean Locutis and Alice Krige and all of that never happened? I took it, since this is a stable time loop, that the real Borg collective is still in the Delta quadrant and all of that always happened. Borgati just made her own collective. It also seems like she only has one ship. It was the only Borg ship in the shield wall. If she had a fleet she probably wouldn't have needed to ask the Federation for help. Not that the show explained any of this. 4 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said: I wonder where the Continuum is and did anything happen to them? The writers forgot (never knew) about them. And about Qs son, who Q was supposed to watch over for all eternity, according to a judgment by the continuum... 3 hours ago, salaydouk said: So again.. in order to get a field promotion you have to first be in the service! You cannot promote a civilian to any rank period. So that was a load of horse manure. He said he was giving her a field commission. Not sure if that changes anything or not. He also never said a rank. She just sat down in the captains chair. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 1 4 Link to comment
Stardancer Supreme May 6, 2022 Share May 6, 2022 1 minute ago, Zonk said: He said he was giving her a field commission. Not sure if that changes anything or not. He also never said a rank. She just sat down in the captains chair. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ It doesn't. The field commission was temporary, and a nod to Seven being rejected by Starfleet for no good reason. 1 4 Link to comment
formerlyfreedom May 6, 2022 Author Share May 6, 2022 It's okay to disagree with one another on the series or the episode, or even the universe. What is NOT okay is being rude to each other. Posts have not been removed, however, future rudeness or violation of the site's Golden Rule will result in sanctions, that may include member notes, warnings, suspensions, up to banning. If you think another poster is being rude, please use the report button, and do not respond. Thank you. 3 Link to comment
Lady Jane May 6, 2022 Share May 6, 2022 I guess I'm a sucker for fan service because I LOVED it. I'm reading Wil Wheaton's book, Still Just a Geek, and I cannot recommend it highly enough. He's a wonderful writer, and the format gives him the opportunity to show his growth. Having read that, and his feelings about his ST family, his appearance really hit me in the feels. I'm cool with this conclusion because of the real-life joy and redemption it brought to Wil. 1 11 Link to comment
marinw May 6, 2022 Share May 6, 2022 (edited) I was way too happy to see Wesley!! Wil Wheaton looks great and gets the Good Sport award for all the Wesley hate he had to endure when he was younger. In "Nemis" he was at there in the background (at least in cast photo) in a Starfleet Uniform and Troi and Riker engagement party, I like to think he just poped back in to finish up at the Acemedy. Starfleet would benefit from having a Traveller. Agnes the Good Borg Witch I still don't really get. I did like how they took care of a giant hole in space with far more dispatch then STD. I shouldn't have liked this season, yet I did. Edited May 6, 2022 by marinw 1 5 Link to comment
chaifan May 6, 2022 Share May 6, 2022 (edited) I'm confused about what happened in the end. Did a new trans warp conduit just appear? Or was something/one behind it's creation and that's what Season 3 will be all about? If Queen Alice Agnes didn't step in, what would have happened? I'm relatively OK with this season. I could have used less of trapsing through Picard's childhood memories. That was really dull and didn't really get us anywhere in the end except maybe explaining why Picard, the hottie that he was, being single his whole life. (Not that there's anything wrong with that...) I like the new crew as an ensemble cast, but hate that they had to discard Elnor for so much of the season. I wonder if there's a reason for that - scheduling issues or whatnot. We all knew he was coming back, so it made no sense to me. I love Q and am glad they were able to incorporate Q into this. But, sorry, I don't buy Q turning to mush as he's about to "die". I could see it as one last prank, one last dig at Picard. But not a love story. I was really hoping they'd bring back Q's son, who was played by JDL's real son. And, OMG, they gave Wesley Crusher a redemption arc. OK, that's not the best word for it, but for fuck's sake, he was such an annoying character on TNG, and Will Wheaton seems to be a really neat guy (never met him, just going on his Ready Room, BBT appearances, etc.), so I'm actually really glad they did that for Wheaton. I've been watching his Ready Room (I'm a few episodes behind) and I give him credit for not giving any hint that this was to come. I think it was a little shoehorned in there, almost seemed like an afterthought, but I'm still glad for Wheaton. Queen Alice Agnes... I'm sorry, I hate to be a bit catty, but Alice Agnes fully Borgified looks more like that weird floating head alien from TOS than she does Borg. Way too round of a head for a Borg queen. This was not the perfect season. I agree with much of the criticism stated above, but I'm just not that outraged about it. There are gaping plot holes. The time travel stuff leaves more questions than answers. But, still, I was glad to have Picard back for a season. Edited May 6, 2022 by chaifan Keep screwing up Alice and Agnes. aargh... 1 7 Link to comment
Starchild May 6, 2022 Share May 6, 2022 During the combined shield sequence, a lot of the imagery went by pretty quick. It looked to me like there were people on a planet watching it happen? Maybe on the other side of the conduit? Did I see that? Link to comment
norcalgal May 6, 2022 Share May 6, 2022 (edited) Well thank goodness that’s over with. What a hot mess of a season this was, especially with all the fanwanking that was needed to explain all sorts of things (just (re)read the posts in the S2 Picard forum). Poor Santiago…his character did a whole lotta nothing this season. Rios could be cut out completely in S2 and not a single thing would have been impacted. At least Alison (if she really isn’t in S3) went out like a Boss as Borg Queen. Spoiler Bring on the TNG reunion! Edited May 7, 2022 by saoirse Spoiler tag added 1 Link to comment
thuganomics85 May 6, 2022 Share May 6, 2022 I actually thought it was decent wrap up all things considering, even though I still feel like the season is lacking as a whole. So, from what I can tell, Q's motivation for all of this was basically because he was dying (or the equivalent of it for his species) and he a) wanted to not be alone for his last moments and b) make Picard realize that he didn't have to be alone anymore? To say that he was a bit extra there would be the understatement of the century, but then again, for someone like Q and the abilities he has, I guess fucking around with time and putting numerous lives at risk just to impress his kinda BFF isn't that far-fetched! Hell, it was almost sweet of him in some ways? Of course, I credit a lot of this to John de Lancie who really brought so much to the table here and kind of made me go with it, if not flat-out by all of it. Really wish we had more of him and Picard together. He and Patrick Stewart shine together whenever they were given the chance. Speaking of relationships, Rios apparently loves that doctor enough that he ends up staying behind after-all. I wonder if that was a creative decision or if Santiago Cabrera didn't want to go past this season? But I always find this general idea weird because even if he lead a "normal" life, who knows what changed with him staying in the past. Then again, was this always what was planned for the universe? Ugh, time-traveling is hard! Not surprised Elnor came back, but I hope they use him better next season. I also wonder if this was a creative decision or if Evan Evagora had limited availability for whatever reason. Wesley Crusher!! Was not expecting that at all. So, he's still part of that Travelers organization and basically recruited Kore to join them. I wonder if they'll be popping back up? Dr. Soong being thwarted is what leads him to putting Project Khan into motion. D'oh! Nice seeing OG Guinan again. Seven and Raffi continue to be the best. Borg Queen Agnes is now in the present/future and helps the Federation stop a universe destroying disaster, which not only makes them allies, but even temporary members of the Federation? But it seems like a bigger threat by be on its way? I wonder if it will be a brand new species or a returning one? All in all, I didn't hate the season or anything, but after a pretty strong start, I felt like it kind of hit a rut and just was underwhelming. I just feel like it and Discovery have the same problems were there are some good ideas here and they have the ingredients to make it work, but for whatever reason they just can't seem to pull it off. I obviously will be back, but I hope the third/final season fares better and gives this iconic character (and the rest) a proper send-off. 1 4 Link to comment
Chicago Redshirt May 6, 2022 Share May 6, 2022 (edited) 17 hours ago, greekmom said: Borgifide Agnes really sucked. How did Q regain his powers?! Hmmmm? I agree how did Rios and Renee meet? Or for that matter Guinan and Renee?! I want to give it some time. The concept of a lawful neutral/neutral good Borg led by Agnes still has potential. That Q failed to be able to use his powers once does not mean that he had completely lost his powers once and for all. Consider a person having difficulty remembering due to Alzheimer's can have lucid moments and not-so lucid moments. A man with erectile dysfunction can have difficulty getting it up at one time, but succeed at another. Or pretty much someone suffering from many illnesses could have only intermittent abilities to function. Guinan did not have to have met Renee at all, but presumably there are decades that would create all sorts of opportunities for Rios and Guinan to meet Renee. There's any number of ways/reasons Rios might have sought Renee out or vice versa. Maybe Renee decided to come to 10 Forward. 17 hours ago, cambridgeguy said: Say, isn't World War III supposed to start soon in the Trek timeline? Hope you enjoy that Rios. Of course, you'll have plenty of time to prep since you have no documentation, no rich friends, and nothing but the clothes on your back. Good luck finding a job to help your overworked and underpaid girlfriend. He still has 24th century knowledge and a bunch of skills. I think he'll do OK. 13 hours ago, greekmom said: What really is bothering me is the militia half Borgafide that are still running around. Did i miss what happened to them?? Did Rios unborgify them? Having them alive with memories of what aggie the "borgie" did to them cause a butterfly effect? If they did kill them, wouldn't that also create a butterfly effect? I think it's likely that most of the Borg aren't running around Earth. They were either killed or went with Agnes, at a guess. 13 hours ago, salaydouk said: What the bleep was that!??!?! I mean seriously what the bleep was that episode?!?!??!?! Because I mean... Auntie Renee?!??! Aside from running up to Picard after Soong ran him over with Renee standing over them, how did Rios and Renee ever meet? Guinan knowing Rios and Teresa?!?!? When exactly did that happen? Or did she just keep tabs on them? But if it was the latter then how or why would she have a picture of them? Teresa and Ricardo back at the Chateau? Huh? The last we saw them they were in Talinn's apartment... and when the crew went back to the apartment not only were they not there, but if you looked the bed was perfectly made like they had left. And honestly if I was Teresa after the day that I had just had and after effectively being "dumped" I would have left that apartment asap and definitely _not_ made the bed. Q dissolved down to all those years of harassing Picard to be based on "because he liked Picard"?!?! Seriously?!?! Whiskey Tango Foxtrot! And now that he is dying alone he wants to make sure that his BFF doesn't either? And how did he even get his powers back to get to France?!?! And to send them all back? After having the whole season distilled down to Picard figuring out it is okay to have a girlfriend, we don't even get the sappy sloppy kiss at the end??!?! Wesley Crusher dissing on his own name was he basically saying he wasn't human anymore?!?!? Wesley Crusher not even showing up? And if he was what he said he was, then why wouldn't he want to find Picard? Or was it he might not have existed unless the time line was restored? Because I believe he showed up just after the launch with Renee on board was confirmed to have occurred. And huge swaths of ST cannon has just been completely ret-conned. So now does Guinan remember both timelines and have memories of meeting Picard in 1890s and also in 2024? How does she reconcile that in her mind?!? And so Rios was happy in the past... But why not take the two of them back with him?!?! He knew the history and that WWII was coming in 30 years!?!?! Why would he want to stay in the past with them instead of take them to the future?!? And since they stayed in the past... well great for him but - did his resultant family survive the Eugenics Wars, WWIII, etc.... Honestly again I wanted the sappy payoff of his 8x great grandson walking into the bar to meet Picard since he would have known it was now "okay" to meet him without dorking the timeline. And say you know see that he was a Starfleet Captain and was you know told he was just given command of the Stargazer!!!!!! And why did it take the Borg to tell Starfleet and the Federation that there was a "Galactic Destruction Event" about to occur?!?! I mean with all the sensors/monitoring that is going on they didn't see that huge sucker?!?! And my biggest beef Seven getting a field promotion to Captain!?!?! That is the same bleep as Kirk going from Cadet to Captain. ARGH!!! And it is made even more unbelievable/worse here, which I did not think was possible because - to start in order to get a field promotion to any rank, you HAVE TO BE IN the service, you can only be promoted at most TWO ranks, and they are given usually for outstanding performance on the battlefield. None of which is true for Seven. So what the bleep and then on top of that she did not do _anything_ that Picard himself or even Raffi was capable of doing. Raffi already a Commander would have been more appropriate to field promote! Also where is the Stargazer XO?!?!? He would have become acting captain at the point and there was NO reason to promote anyone. Also I don't believe Picard had command authority to give a field promotion and make that person the captain of the ship. He was at most the mission leader and was _not_ in the operational chain of command of the ship. ARGH! And I will say it again.. I feel used and abuse by this show. I was asked to care about characters that they just p!$$ed away and then threw away! Between 2024 and whenever Rios dies, there's plenty of potential opportunities for Rios to meet Renee. Maybe Rios seeks her out to make sure she gets a nudge towards helping to heal the Earth. Maybe Rios takes little Ricardo to NASA camp and there's Renee and they hit it off. I don't see why it matters how they met. Similarly, there is no particular reason that Guinan could not have come to know Rios and Teresa personally or to simply keep tabs on them. Collecting a picture of them wouldn't exactly be difficult either personally or through computer databases. It was apparent in the TNG days that Q had a particular fondness for Picard. Data even speculated that it might be analogous to master's fondness for a favorite pet. So Q articulating essentially the same thing shouldn't be that much of a surprise. The surprise is that Picard would reciprocate with a hug. The concept of Q running on fumes isn't that hard to grasp. He might not be able to do something one moment that he can the next. BTW, we don't know if Q used his inherent powers or a transporter/other future tech or even just a conventional 2024 travel methods to get to Chateau Picard. Yeah, there probably should have been a kiss with Laris, but despite the epiphany that he needs to let people in, Picard can only move so fast. I actually like the lack of a kiss. One doesn't let go of a lifetime of being afraid of attachment overnight. And Laris shouldn't rush into anything either. It's all one timeline and it doesn't seem like it would be difficult for a normal person to reconcile that Guinan met Picard both in the 1890s and in 2024. It certainly shouldn't be difficult for someone of Guinan's species who we were told in TNG has a perception of things that goes beyond linear time. The thing that the Borg were able to detect hadn't happened yet. The Borg were assisted by some degree of trans-temporal knowledge and greater tech than Starfleet has available. So there wasn't anything for Starfleet to detect, really. I am confused about whether Seven actually had a field commission of any rank while aboard Voyager. I suppose they never called her Lt. Seven or Lt. Commander Seven, or whatever. She just was always Seven and she always had basically the run of the ship. Anyway, Admiral Picard can field-promote Seven to Captain. You know how I know? Because I just watched him do it. Yeah, it doesn't matter if in the present day military people can't field-promote like that. Starfleet's not bound by the protocols of today's military. It's bound by its own rules, and there hasn't been anything on screen saying that Starfleet admirals cannot promote whoever they want, or placing any limitations on how those promotions might occur. 11 hours ago, millennium said: At one point last episode, didn't Seven shout something like "They're not human, they're Borg!" How does that jibe with the Borg rehab program we saw in Season 1 where Icheb was working to restore Borg victims to something like their original selves? And wasn't that what Seven did with Icheb when she first met him and the other Borg kids on Voyager? And what about Seven herself? She was Borg and yet she was saved. The "they're not human, they're Borg" mindset reminds me of First Contact where Captain Ahab Picard murders members of his own crew after they were turned Borg, proclaiming it was better they should die even after he HIMSELF had been restored to being human. It's too bad he never met someone like Deanna Troi who would have sensed that and helped him with it. in the 24th/25th century during a time of non-threat, it is easily possible to restore someone's humanity from being Borg. It's entirely appropriate and common-sensical IMO to put that aside when showing that compassion and wish to respect their humanity is impractical because there's not ready means to de-borgify someone in the past, and when the compassion would likely get you killed and cause the high-stakes mission of saving humanity to fail. Edited May 6, 2022 by Chicago Redshirt 1 1 1 6 Link to comment
millennium May 6, 2022 Share May 6, 2022 14 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said: in the 24th/25th century during a time of non-threat, it is easily possible to restore someone's humanity from being Borg. It's entirely appropriate and common-sensical IMO to put that aside when showing that compassion and wish to respect their humanity is impractical because there's not ready means to de-borgify someone in the past, and when the compassion would likely get you killed and cause the high-stakes mission of saving humanity to fail. And yet, Seven is from the 24th/25th century, and was herself redeemed. Although she was in 2024, all of her 24th/25th-century knowledge and experience remains intact. I get what you're saying about the situation and the impossibility of doing anything for the assimilated mercenaries; still, I would have expected Seven to be more sympathetic. 2 Link to comment
Llywela May 6, 2022 Share May 6, 2022 (edited) Hmm. The finale wrapped things up better than I expected. An enjoyable episode off the back of an enjoyable season, which will probably play a lot more smoothly when binged instead of weekly installments. Dramatic moments, emotional moments, this episode had them all. Overall, though, I'm left feeling that the whole is decidedly less than the sum of its parts. And I am salty as hell that the producers decided to not only write Rios out of the show, but went scorched earth on him in the process, leaving no possibility of ever revisiting the character. His exit played nicely in the episode, but the show wants us to consider it a happy ending for him, and I'm sorry but I don't. I might buy it more if there had been proper build-up, if the season had taken some time to actually explore the character and how he feels about his place in the universe - there's been plenty of opportunity for that - but no. His storyline for the season literally was 'Rios falls for Teresa' with no more depth or nuance than that. What a waste or a good character. Cabrera deserved so much better. On 5/5/2022 at 7:41 AM, greekmom said: How did Q regain his powers?! Hmmmm? I agree how did Rios and Renee meet? Or for that matter Guinan and Renee?! Q didn't regain his powers. He hadn't fully lost them, but only had a little juice left. Enough to get four people back where they belonged, a few seconds earlier than he'd removed them. Rios and Guinan were both living permanently in LA and probably gravitated to one another quite naturally - Picard no doubt had mentioned Guinan and her bar to Rios during one of the off-screen mission briefings the team undoubtedly held. It isn't hard to imagine that after everything that had happened, once Renee returned to Earth she went looking for answers about what the hell all that was, and found Rios and Guinan as a result. They may well have been looking out for her, too, wanting to watch over her as she fulfilled her destiny. On 5/5/2022 at 10:40 AM, Chaos Theory said: Wow I must be the only person to really like this season. Maybe because I don’t hate new trek out of spite. Look again. Plenty of people have posted positive messages about the show, and while there definitely are people out there who automatically hate new trek out of spite, I don't think we have many of them here. Read previous episode threads and you'll see that I, for one, have doggedly defended the show for most of the season. That said, I do feel strongly that while each individual episode has its merits, the season as a whole has been messy and structurally flawed, and I say that not out of spite (I have loved this show from the moment it was announced, I wanted it to be amazing!) but as genuine critique. The show was badly, badly impacted both by covid restrictions and multiple changes in showrunner, and it shows. Too much of what had been planned had to be re-written a bit too late in the day. Character focus got lost in the shuffle, and the storytelling was weakened immensely as a result. A lot of the emotional beats the show was aiming for failed to fully land because the groundwork hadn't been properly laid, the characters were all too disconnected from one another for too much of the season. On 5/5/2022 at 11:40 AM, salaydouk said: Auntie Renee?!??! Aside from running up to Picard after Soong ran him over with Renee standing over them, how did Rios and Renee ever meet? Guinan knowing Rios and Teresa?!?!? When exactly did that happen? Or did she just keep tabs on them? But if it was the latter then how or why would she have a picture of them? Teresa and Ricardo back at the Chateau? Huh? The last we saw them they were in Talinn's apartment... and when the crew went back to the apartment not only were they not there, but if you looked the bed was perfectly made like they had left. And honestly if I was Teresa after the day that I had just had and after effectively being "dumped" I would have left that apartment asap and definitely _not_ made the bed. Q dissolved down to all those years of harassing Picard to be based on "because he liked Picard"?!?! Seriously?!?! Whiskey Tango Foxtrot! And now that he is dying alone he wants to make sure that his BFF doesn't either? And how did he even get his powers back to get to France?!?! And to send them all back? After having the whole season distilled down to Picard figuring out it is okay to have a girlfriend, we don't even get the sappy sloppy kiss at the end??!?! Wesley Crusher dissing on his own name was he basically saying he wasn't human anymore?!?!? Wesley Crusher not even showing up? And if he was what he said he was, then why wouldn't he want to find Picard? Or was it he might not have existed unless the time line was restored? Because I believe he showed up just after the launch with Renee on board was confirmed to have occurred. And huge swaths of ST cannon has just been completely ret-conned. So now does Guinan remember both timelines and have memories of meeting Picard in 1890s and also in 2024? How does she reconcile that in her mind?!? And so Rios was happy in the past... But why not take the two of them back with him?!?! He knew the history and that WWII was coming in 30 years!?!?! Why would he want to stay in the past with them instead of take them to the future?!? And since they stayed in the past... well great for him but - did his resultant family survive the Eugenics Wars, WWIII, etc.... Honestly again I wanted the sappy payoff of his 8x great grandson walking into the bar to meet Picard since he would have known it was now "okay" to meet him without dorking the timeline. And say you know see that he was a Starfleet Captain and was you know told he was just given command of the Stargazer!!!!!! And why did it take the Borg to tell Starfleet and the Federation that there was a "Galactic Destruction Event" about to occur?!?! I mean with all the sensors/monitoring that is going on they didn't see that huge sucker?!?! And my biggest beef Seven getting a field promotion to Captain!?!?! That is the same bleep as Kirk going from Cadet to Captain. ARGH!!! And it is made even more unbelievable/worse here, which I did not think was possible because - to start in order to get a field promotion to any rank, you HAVE TO BE IN the service, you can only be promoted at most TWO ranks, and they are given usually for outstanding performance on the battlefield. None of which is true for Seven. So what the bleep and then on top of that she did not do _anything_ that Picard himself or even Raffi was capable of doing. Raffi already a Commander would have been more appropriate to field promote! Also where is the Stargazer XO?!?!? He would have become acting captain at the point and there was NO reason to promote anyone. Also I don't believe Picard had command authority to give a field promotion and make that person the captain of the ship. He was at most the mission leader and was _not_ in the operational chain of command of the ship. ARGH! And I will say it again.. I feel used and abuse by this show. I was asked to care about characters that they just p!$$ed away and then threw away! I have no trouble believing that after returning from her mission Renee went looking for answers about what the hell was going on with the assassination attempts and what not, and in searching for those answers found both Guinan and Rios. I'm good with that. What I'm not good with is Rios staying in the past and that being called a happy ending. As for Teresa and Ricardo being at the chateau, there were clearly some missing scenes there. At that point, the team believed that having completed their mission they were now stranded irrevocably in the past and were going to have to build lives there. It is straightforward enough to assume that before returning to France to clear the chateau of 'butterflies' Rios went to see Teresa to make sure she and Ricardo were okay, and to tell her that he was going to be sticking around after all. His whole 'come to LA' exchange with Raffi pretty much told us that he and Teresa had already decided to build a life together at that point, which would be why she accompanied him back to France. I'm pretty sure that's why he decided to stay. Not as a spur of the moment thing - although it was also that - but because he'd already accepted the fact of being stranded in the past and had started planning a life with Teresa and Ricardo that he did not now want to let go of. It kinda makes sense. But I still don't like it. I don't care that Guinan told a touching story of what a wonderful life he and Teresa had and all the good things they did, helping people - presumably through World War III. I hate that the show tried to present this as a happy ending - that this man turned his back on the utopia of the 25th century to live in the polluted, racist hellscape of a 21st century about to plunge into the devastation of World War III, all for the sake of a woman he'd known all of two days, without even a token acknowledgement of the promising career he was giving up for that purpose. I hate that a single line in the finale about always feeling out of place is all the insight we got into how he reached that decision, when they had an entire season in which his mixed feelings about his resumed Starfleet commission could have been teased out - now that's what he and Teresa should have talked about, instead of that weird long speech Teresa spouted about a completely imaginary scenario designed to explain the kind of answer she wanted him to give to a question he then didn't even get to answer at all. Just...the writing of this storyline was really poor, really half-assed, 100% plot-driven without any actual Rios characterisation at all. Everything that made him interesting in S1 was completely stripped away for S2. That said, taking Teresa and Ricardo to the future was never an option. Q didn't have enough juice left for that. He could only manage four, he said. Elnor was only restored because Rios chose to stay, if Rios had gone there wouldn't have been enough power for Elnor as well. And I was very touched by Raffi's tears at the prospect of losing him. I've missed their friendship this season, we've only caught tiny glimpses of it, but it is still there. I have no trouble believing that Rios looked Guinan up after everyone had gone. Picard no doubt had mentioned her. I like to think of them being friends for many years, I find that comforting. But I'm still unhappy that he was killed off. Murdered in a bar fight with a cigar in his hand - how is that a happy ending?! I wanted so much for him to live, to fly off into the 25th century, to keep open the possibility of revisiting the character again in the future. So I'm gutted that this was the end of him. I'm pretty sure La Sirena is also gone, because timey-wimey - Alt!Sirena went back in time and was Borgified, which I'm guessing means regular La Sirena would have disappeared from 2401 in just the same way that Rios and Agnes did. Which means that even the Rios holos are gone. Way to go totally scorched earth on a perfectly good character for no reason! I really wanted to keep him. I love the trio of him, Raffi and Seven bouncing off each other, he has a lovely dynamic with them both, and I know there's a big push for a Seven spin-off with Raffi, but I can't bring myself to get behind it if I can't have Rios too. It does feel like his place in the structure of the show was usurped by Seven once she was brought on board as a regular - I mean, she has quite literally taken the captain's chair of not one but two ships that were his! It's quite blatant. The show doesn't have a place for two ship's captains, so the white, blonde legacy character takes precedence over the Hispanic newcomer who had initially been created specifically for that role. Which leaves quite a sour taste in my mouth, to be honest. Seven didn't get a field promotion, though. She got a field commission - a bit like Janeway giving Paris a field commission early in Voyager, after he'd been brought on board as a civilian consultant fresh from jail. I have no problem with Picard doing that, he has the authority, although I would like to know what Stargazer's XO was doing through the whole thing. Maybe he was one of the officers stunned by Borgati, though. I'm glad at least one member of Rios's crew noticed he'd disappeared! Damn, imagine trying to explain that whole mess to Starfleet command! Mostly, though, I'm just gutted that we didn't get the show 2.01 gave us a glimpse of. If Picard had ended after S1 and segued naturally into a spin-off with a broader focus than just one ship, encompassing both Stargazer with Rios in command and Seven on La Sirena, while also touching base with Soji and Agnes out on their diplomatic tour, allowing all those character to develop naturally (there was, quite literally, an entire season's worth of character arcs neatly set up in 2.01 and then promptly bulldozed aside in favour of a manufactured plot)...well, I'd have been very happy with that. On 5/5/2022 at 2:33 PM, millennium said: If Alice tweaked the Borg's primary directive in 2024, does that mean Locutis and Alice Krige and all of that never happened? And if that's the case, why didn't Seven vanish, or at the very least lose her implants again? She never would have been captured and assimilated by the Borg under Borgati's reign. And why were Picard and the rest of the fleet alarmed when a Borg ship appeared in episode 1, since Alice's reset of the timeline would have left them with no ill will towards the Borg. Ugh. No, I don't think Borgati undid all of the Borg's history. All that still happened. I imagine Agnes's Cooperative (Agnes, not Alice) has spent the last 400 years quietly staying out of the way of history, building itself up very slowly - she only has that one ship, after all, huge though it is. She is running a closed Cooperative that is separate from the main Borg Collective. But now, having lamented Rios's ending, can I just say how sorry I am that this was the storyline chosen to write Agnes out of the show. It's been a powerful story and gave Allison Pill some meaty material to get her teeth into, but honestly. In S1 her entire storyline revolved around having her mind invaded by a manipulative alien enemy, who compelled her to commit horrific acts and drove her to the point of suicide before she managed to reclaim herself and recover. And after all that, someone thought it would be a good idea to give her another storyline in which she has her mind and body invaded by another manipulative alien enemy, which compels her to commit horrific acts, only this time she doesn't get to escape, this time she doesn't get to recover, this time the Agnes that we knew is effectively dead and gone, she was forced to merge irrevocably with that enemy to become another being entirely. And that is considered a good ending for her? Because she brought the concept of peaceful cooperation to a single faction of the Borg? Damn. Also, for all of Borgati's big talk about her Cooperative, what she proposed in 2.09 sounded ethically shady as all hell. On 5/5/2022 at 3:42 PM, Stardancer Supreme said: And I did like that someone noticed that Rios was gone. But no one noticed that Raffi wasn't on the Excelsior? It seemed kinda odd that a cadet was left in charge of Raffi's ship, even though it meant that our Elnor was back. I don't think he was in charge, he was just manning the comms. I'm glad we got Elnor back, at least, although he too will not be part of S3, Spoiler stripped away to make room for TNG2.0, and he was completely wasted this season. On 5/5/2022 at 4:16 PM, salaydouk said: Okay so if Picard remembers the bullet holes in the wall or the stories of them in the wall... Then why didn't he also have stories about bodies in the chateau walls!?!?!? I think Guinan now remember both events/meetings.. But before the timeline was restored she would not have met him in the 1890s. The team went back to the chateau to remove all traces of advanced tech. Maybe they also removed the bodies from the walls? They'd have had to do something with all those other corpses, too. Apparently, Guinan's memory of the 1890 encounter was a goof that fell between the changing showrunners. Terry Matalas was at the helm when Picard first went to young Guinan, and he took the approach that the altered timeline meant that encounter had never happened. But then Akiva Goldsman took over for the rest of the season, missed that note completely, and now the way he wrote the fallout of this episode leaves the Matalas interpretation in doubt. We'll just have to handwave it. The season has much bigger problems than that! Edited May 7, 2022 by saoirse Spoiler tag added 2 5 Link to comment
starri May 6, 2022 Share May 6, 2022 19 hours ago, salaydouk said: did his resultant family survive the Eugenics Wars The Eugenics Wars happened in the 90s. If you look closely at Adam Soong's Project Khan file, it's dated 1996. I think they were setting up Arik Soong's Augments that we saw on Enterprise, although they could have been clearer. 2 Link to comment
Chicago Redshirt May 6, 2022 Share May 6, 2022 4 hours ago, Llywela said: Apparently, Guinan's memory of the 1890 encounter was a goof that fell between the changing showrunners. Terry Matalas was at the helm when Picard first went to young Guinan, and he took the approach that the altered timeline meant that encounter had never happened. But then Akiva Goldsman took over for the rest of the season, missed that note completely, and now the way he wrote the fallout of this episode leaves the Matalas interpretation in doubt. We'll just have to handwave it. The season has much bigger problems than that! Also: Guinan has done more than124 years of living since the two days (let's say) that she encountered the TNG crew in Time's Arrow. Even if none of those years have had subsequent adventures akin to Time's Arrow, the two days would not necessarily be the freshest or most prominent thing in her mind so that upon just seeing Picard she'd should be like, "I never thought I would see you again!" It very reasonably would take more prompting to jog that memory. 2 Link to comment
Lebanna May 6, 2022 Share May 6, 2022 (edited) The Guinan thing is a massive plot hole as in those episodes she makes a huge thing about how meeting Picard in the 1890s changes her whole life forever and is one of the most pivotal moments of her whole existence. Which admittedly, doesn’t actually make sense when you watch how little interaction they have overall in the episodes. But hey. The only handwavium available is that time was in flux when they arrived from the ‘wrong’ future, so at that moment because that future was still in place at the moment they met, 1890 hadn’t happened. Then, by doing what had always been done (almost) instead of something different that created the Confederacy, they reset everything except the 1890 mission, Mark Twain and Data losing his head in the past. But really this kind of explanation means waving like you are doing jazz hands. They screwed up. Am I thrilled that Star Trek’s first Spanish speaking Latin American main character was pretty much rebranded as a stereotypical Latin Lover all season and then got MURDERED IN A BAR FIGHT? What the actual hell, Star Trek. Do better. Edited May 6, 2022 by Lebanna 11 Link to comment
tennisgurl May 6, 2022 Share May 6, 2022 (edited) Oh course Soong is behind the Eugenics War, this stupid family is apparently behind every bad thing that has happened in the Trek verse ever. Did they also somehow cause the rift between the Romulans and the Vulcans? Help the Changelings start the Dominion? Write Star Trek: The Final Frontier? These assholes must be stopped, don't let them procreate any further. I, of course, started immediately scratching my head over how the hell he could be behind Khan and the superhumans, which all happened in the 90s while this is in the 2020's but according to some sources I read he was the creator of a second Eugenics War that no one has ever mentioned. Which technically makes it fair game for Trek history, but is still an annoying and blatant retcon. This season has had a lot of those, things that technically can fit into established cannon, but obviously were not part of anyone's idea of Trek before this season, having to bend and twist to make all of their new ideas fit. This is one of the reasons Trek needs to take a break from going to the past, their established timeline makes it hard to add new things without having to mess too much with established cannon. I guess we can write this off as timey-whimey or this all did happen but documents were lost during the various wars that happened, but if you have to spend so much time trying to justify why your new cannon can technically fit into established cannon, maybe its just not a great idea. So Picard went back in time because of the Borg Queen who only came there because she sent Picard back in the first place? The mind boggles. I have liked a lot of parts of the season, and this episode did end up tying most everything together while wrapping things up, but overall this has been a real step down from last season. Last season certainly had its faults but I was a real defender of the show. I liked exploring an older Picard and watching him get his mojo back. I thought the clone stuff, while heavy handed, did ask some interesting questions and came together pretty well. I liked the new cast and that they were a bit more of a motley crew than a typical Trek crew, and I mostly liked how they brought in the old TNG cast, I thought it was satisfying. This season really suffered from trying to do too much, it seemed like the show runners had a bunch of ideas for what the season would be like but instead of just focusing on one or two concepts, they decided to do ALL of them. You could fill a whole season with the gang back at Starfleet, the return of Q, the Borg wanting to join the Federation, Picard angst, the bad timeline, going to the past, more clones, there was so much going on that all of it ended up being poorly developed. Every time I started to get into one plot, I got pulled from that one into another, it was exhausting. I know I have been saying that all season, but its still true, and just because they did kind of wrap things up here doesn't mean that it didn't feel like a patchwork season. It also became clear this season that the show has really given up caring about the new characters. They got stuck with the worst plots, hardly any plots, or were written out, with most of the focus going to Picard and Seven. I know that this show is called Picard and was always going to have Picard as its focus, no problem with that, but why even bother giving him a new supporting cast if it was just going to throw them away after one season? I am glad that Elnor is back, but I hate that he was gone for a whole season, I have no clue who thought that was a good idea, and now we have Rios staying in the past and Jurati the Borg Queen off to guard against some new threat, it seems like a real waste of interesting characters. In general I have found that to be a frustrating aspect of the Discovery era of Trek, they are constantly setting up cool characters only to kill them or write them off the show when its clear that they still have tons of story left in them, it makes it hard to get invested in characters that you know the show will just get bored of. They even bring back old characters just to off them, even Q, although that at least had some kind of narrative purpose. Trek has always struggled with writing ensembles instead of focusing on a few core characters (I would say DS9 handled a big cast the best) but at least most of them were around, even if they weren't well used. Spoiler I suppose they want to clear the deck for next seasons TNG reunion? Rios in particular got a raw deal, staying in the past for a boring lady and her boring kid and his tepid romance of about three days. Good luck with the multiple upcoming bloody conflicts and trying to get along without any paperwork alongside your overworked girlfriend, Rios! Why didn't he just take them to the future? The timeline is going to be fucked no matter what, why not move them to the better future so you don't give up your entire life? I guess that's why they added that bit with Guinan saying how they do fine, god knows how they pull that off, but like I said, its a real waste. Also, don't you love how the first major Hispanic character in Trek got saddled with two of the most stereotypical plots you can give a Hispanic person? Getting hassled by immigration, and being a super sexy dream boyfriend? Of all the TNG characters to show up, I certainly didn't except Wesley, everyone's "favorite" whiz kid turned fifth dimensional being. I don't hate it, and I actually thought that the end of Q worked pretty well. He did always have a weird soft spot for Picard, I can see why he would want to see his favorite human at the end. I admit that a lot of the fanservice continuity porn, like hearing that old score, did hit me hard in the feels. There really was stuff that I liked in this season, despite my complaining. I like the idea of exploring Picard's childhood, even if I don't love how they did it, I thought everything with Seven was really strong, the cast was good as ever, I did end up really liking everything with Q and Picard, I like the Borg joining the long list of Federation enemies who became allies, very in tune with Trek's idealism, and I thought this was a decent final episode. I am mostly just disappointed that this season didn't live up to its potential, hopefully next season they can get back on track. I didn't hate it by any means, I enjoyed a lot of it, but I think I wanted something different. And I never have to hear the weird clone ever again. Edited May 7, 2022 by saoirse Spoiler tag added 2 3 Link to comment
Quark May 6, 2022 Share May 6, 2022 I found this whole season rather baffling, what was gained? As someone who never saw the original Star Trek series, the old characters did nothing for me. Disappointed (it seems) we won't see Rios again. He was great. We still have Seven though. She is quite fabulous. 1 2 Link to comment
MissLucas May 6, 2022 Share May 6, 2022 18 minutes ago, Quark said: I found this whole season rather baffling, what was gained? A sh*tload of retconning. 4 Link to comment
TV Anonymous May 6, 2022 Share May 6, 2022 Random thoughts, from this episode and from the season. That is not Wesley Crusher, sorry. That is Wil Wheaton who is a friend of Leonard Hofstadter and the nemesis of Sheldon Cooper. What kind of mall cops security does the agency overseeing Europa mission has? How did the launch proceed without astronaut Maya aboard? Cristóbal stays in 2024 and continues on living an adventurous life. Fine. How does he do it without any civil document? No passport, no social security, no birth certificate from anywhere. Where is the rocket launch site that is within small drone flying distance from Metropolitan Los Angeles? If Renée is Jean-Luc ancestor, does this mean that she will marry another Picard? Even in Star Trek universe family name follows paternal line. I find it funny that Chris and Teresa - who is an American living in the United States - converse more in Spanish than Jean-Luc - a French boy living in rural France - converse with Yvette or Maurice or Renée in French. 1 1 Link to comment
sugarbaker design May 6, 2022 Share May 6, 2022 13 minutes ago, TV Anonymous said: If Renée is Jean-Luc ancestor, does this mean that she will marry another Picard? Even in Star Trek universe family name follows paternal line. It was established early in season 2 that Renee is not a direct ancestor of JL. She's essentially a great aunt to the nth power. 1 1 1 Link to comment
Llywela May 6, 2022 Share May 6, 2022 16 minutes ago, TV Anonymous said: Cristóbal stays in 2024 and continues on living an adventurous life. Fine. How does he do it without any civil document? No passport, no social security, no birth certificate from anywhere. My headcanon is that Guinan hooks him up with documentation. I mean, she's an alien who has been living on Earth over 100 years at this point. You know she knows how to get the very best of fake IDs! Someone upthread was grumbling about Soong being behind the Eugenics War. The show does not make that claim, not at all. It merely implies that he was part of the Eugenics War (I imagine a lot of people were), and had enough involvement with Khan's group to still have an old file hanging around. That's all. 1 5 Link to comment
Affogato May 6, 2022 Share May 6, 2022 (edited) 30 minutes ago, TV Anonymous said: ? Cristóbal stays in 2024 and continues on living an adventurous life. Fine. How does he do it without any civil document? No passport, no social security, no birth certificate from anywhere. Where is the rocket launch site that is within small drone flying distance from Metropolitan Los Angeles? Theresa would know where to get fake IDs. guinan, even better. Maybe that’s the contact point. Elon Musk builds one next October. Edited May 6, 2022 by Affogato 1 Link to comment
starri May 6, 2022 Share May 6, 2022 3 hours ago, tennisgurl said: I admit that a lot of the fanservice continuity porn, like hearing that old score, did hit me hard in the feels. In addition to the stuff I mentioned, when i rewatched the episodes, I realized that the supernova that flashes at the very end of the episode was Q dying, which got me again. I’d forgotten that “See you…out there” was the last thing he said in “All Good Things…” 5 7 Link to comment
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