S06.E09: The Hill

[Ohiopirate02]

10 hours ago, CountryGirl said:

Having rewatched last night’s episode a little while ago, it is really rubbing me the wrong way about Toby’s dismissal of Jack’s routine as something that could be essentially lifted and shifted. I have a nephew with special needs and I helped to raise him, even moving in with him and his mother for several years after my late brother’s death. The “eh, he’ll adjust attitude.” Having dealt with advocating constantly for my nephew’s needs, including receiving evaluations, getting services he was entitled to, doing my best, as did his mom, to to help him thrive and develop, and Kate has done the lion’s share from the beginning as remember, it took Toby quite some time to accept Jack’s condition so she had to step in, I would not have been amused to hear someone say it was no big deal to upheave nephew’s routine. 

I will always remember Toby not being able to bond with Jack because Jack's blindness means he is incapable of appreciating Carrie Fisher as Princess Leia in that gold bikini in Return of the Jedi.

[GeorgiaRai]

I felt like they wanted me to think Toby was being insensitive to Kate by calling a Lyft and not expecting/assuming she'd prefer to walk [up hill, in cocktail attire and dressy shoes, to arrive within a certain timeframe at a fancy party for a first-time meeting with Toby's boss & colleagues].  The fact that she could do it on her own doesn't reflect at all on Toby's actions that night, because the circumstances were entirely different.  

Why do we even need a Big Green Egg Incident now?  They've already ruined Toby & Kate; why subject us to more of their angst and bitterness and household-appliance drama? We've all already chosen which parent we want to live with after this divorce, so... just move on, show!

[Rootbeer]

11 hours ago, CountryGirl said:

I also don’t see the phone call to Philip as her being “you did this, so now I get to do it, too” but her getting her ducks in a row by seeking full-time employment when she splits from him. I see it as she feels she cannot trust him at this point, so she is doing what she needs to do to take care of herself on her own. 

This would be 'getting her ducks in a row' Pearson-style, since we all know that her salary even as a full-time teaching assistant wouldn't begin to cover their actual living expenses.  The show has always played fast and loose with the economic realities of life; but we've also seen Kate being very dependent on others to pave the way for her and take care of her.  Whether is was her daddy at the pool, living with her mom and working at a diner as an adult, working as her brother's personal assistant; Kate seemingly has never had to actually support herself, let alone her kids which is a pretty major thing for a middle aged woman.  I personally don't know any 40 something women who've never had to support themselves at some point.

It seems clear that she still expects someone else to pick up the financial slack for her even if she divorces Toby since she wants to remain in her current home and continue to work for subsistence wages.  I don't see Kate making realistic plans for her future; I see her once again, living in her own fantasy and letting others do the hard stuff for her.  Kevin will be paying her mortgage and a whole lot more once her  divorce is final and any alimony she receives ends.

Edited March 24, 2022 by Rootbeer

[CountryGirl]

10 hours ago, chocolatine said:

A couple of seasons ago, when Kate and Toby brought baby Jack home after his long hospital stay, Kate hired a specialist to make their house safe for Jack. But when the woman arrived and started doing her job, Kate stopped her after five minutes with a Pearson speech about wanting Jack to live a life without limitations. So Kate was the one who set the precedent of dismissing any kind of special treatment for Jack.

I saw that as a very isolated event given everything we have seen since, including this week's episode, shows Kate very much embracing techniques, using his white cane, the song, etc., to help Jack. I also have to take the fact that Kate was a brand-new mom with a preemie baby she was finally able to bring home and all the joy but also a lot of anxiety and the emotions that induces. Was she a bit hasty and irrational? Sure, but I'm not going to paint her with a broad brush or agree it was "precedent" for an isolated event under trying circumstances when shortly thereafter she went to the special needs retreat with Toby to get better informed on Jack's needs, her enrolling him at the blind school, the little games etc., we've seen that are as much an education and development opportunity for him as they are fun and play-time. All the care she takes with his meals and Hailey's. For me, in looking at the totality of the circumstances through current-day, I think Kate has done an amazing job coming to terms with Jack's condition and working to be the best mom and advocate for her special needs son. 

1 hour ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I will always remember Toby not being able to bond with Jack because Jack's blindness means he is incapable of appreciating Carrie Fisher as Princess Leia in that gold bikini in Return of the Jedi.

I remember that as well. It was several months after Jack's birth and diagnosis and Toby was still very much in denial. But yet, one parent needing more time to process and cope is common, too, and I recognize Toby's need for grace just as Kate was deserving with that special needs home assessment therapist in the very early days of Jack's homecoming.

[CountryGirl]

2 hours ago, BlancheDevoreaux said:

This is why I think college-age Kevin is perfectly cast. Kevin is supposed to be a pompous ass at 20 and this actor has those mannerisms down. I just wish he would shower and wash his hair. He looks dirty. In all seriousness, casting has been one of the best parts of this show. They nailed the younger actors.

I am clearly in the minority on this opinion, but I'm not all good with Kate just deciding she doesn't need Toby to be happy and she can leave. It's important for her to learn to be happy on her own and not rely on someone else for that happiness, but you don't just pack your bags and ditch your marriage because you are there. You made a commitment. You brought two young people into the relationship. You are not in a dangerous situation, He used to be your favorite person in the world but you stopped communicating. Before blowing up your life and having two young children be a casualty, try and make your marriage work.

Kate and the kids moving to SF would not fix the problems in this marriage. It would be putting a band-aid on a broken leg and a temporary salve for the gaping wound. Toby would have everything as he has it now, his personal life fitting in the corners his work life allows while Kate would have given up everything to please him. She would resent him for feeling like he forced her into it and he would resent her resentment.

I am all for fighting to make marriages work absent abuse and serial cheating, but staying together for the kids is great for no one, kids included. 

[qtpye]

11 hours ago, 30 Helens said:

Let’s face it, this couple was doomed the minute they gave themselves that dumb “Katoby” nickname. If you must do a couple name (and please don’t), at least streamline it. Koby or Tate. Pick one.

With regards to who’s right, of course neither is. Just like most real world marriage fights. Both made false assumptions about the other, and made plans based on those assumptions. Toby thought Kate would be thrilled to join his new life, so went full steam ahead based on that. Kate thought Toby actually preferred their former life, and so never considered making a change. This is where talking comes in handy.

Personally, I think Kate’s a little nuts for not wanting to live in SF. That apartment was gorgeous. I’ll marry Toby if that means I can move there. (I think my husband would be ok with that, if he can come too.)

One thing I did not understand: Shouldn’t it be harder to get into a locked pool area than out of it? Every TV show I’ve seen that uses that “oops, the door prop moved” trope sets up a scenario where the door only locks from one side, like a fire escape or roof access. So how the hell did they get into the pool??

 

It’s not just an apartment but a beautiful home😍😍

A and place like that would cost a fortune and they are very lucky to be able to afford it.

It annoys me that Kate is so woe is me all the time. She come from a loving family with brothers that adore her and will do anything for her. Her husband loves her and she has 2 adorable kids. She has actually had a fortunate and blessed life but she acts like no one has ever suffered the way she has.

She even has her dream job without any training.

5 hours ago, debraran said:

I do think the money Kevin has and probably Phillip is a convenient safety blanket because Kate knows Kevin has offered and would help in a heartbeat. Toby also will support his children and Kate doesn't have to live with him to get it of course. Why stay with him when she can live on a small salary and still be ok. Most people in the "real" world would have a harder time. His kids will see Philip more but again those are choices we make. Kevin was never married or even dating Madison so his case is different but hopefully even if the one preview of future looks bleak, Toby is happy. No reason he can't find his happy spot too but he did have depression and that is unrelenting at times.

To the above post, I agree, it's hard to see Kate as anything but a large woman and I know from people in my own family, you are invisible larger. People never ask about them as often, they are shocked when spouse/girl/boyfriend is handsome/pretty, it's not a kind world. BUT this show made it all about Kate's weight from day one. I think we got a break from baby years, but she had issues with girls at pool, she had grandma commenting on it, there was unhealthy food issues (although everyone should eat healthy) it was used for her insecurity, it was used for so many things. They used her weight as an excuse after Jack died but 20 years later, that was lame. The real root of it was never addressed because they couldn't control the actress's weight (which is good but made change difficult) with Toby, fat was fake, so easier. They had to show the improbable pregnancy as difficult but then the adoption was easy too and sadly they are divorcing which I'm sure bio mom would find sad too.  They ignore the weight when they want too but used it constantly during the show. How can you not think about it when it's the theme of her life? They wont bring up the trouble she might have being heavy and keeping up with toddlers but they will demonize Toby again with the upcoming grill incident. I just hate the unevenness of the it. I know Jack Jr. is ok but I don't want to see that scene. God forbid they ever show Kate being an imperfect parent too like everyone else.

Kate  deserves to be happy, she deserves a good story, there is time to improve but mostly this show made her a victim, made her weight up and center, made her weak, but not a good reason for it.

Very well said. It is the writers who can not see past the actress’s weight to present her as a realistic three dimensional character, so they make her a Mary Sue.

I am going to ask a stupid question.

In this era of post pandemic remote work, couldn’t Toby’s tech company arrange for him to work remotely and maybe come into the office a couple times a month?

This way they could still live in LA and Toby could keep the job he loves.

Edited March 24, 2022 by qtpye

[Katie111]

20 hours ago, nilyank said:

Pretty much like when Randall decided to quit his high paying job. Or buying William’s old apartment building. Or running for office in another state which required them to sell their beautiful house, move into a new city, change schools for all the girls and adjust to Randalll’s whims.

Unlike Kate, Beth talked it out with Randall and despite her frustrations she didnt stew about it and blame him for not being the same Randall that she fell in love in college. Beth has an ability to bend that Kate isn’t as comfortable as doing.

I don’t think Toby helped his situation but I don’t believe that Kate would have been happy or as supportive if Toby told her about the other job offer but that he wanted to stay in the job in San Francisco. She has finally found a point in her life that she was happy with (kids, job as a music teacher asst, closer relationship with her mom, her home in LA) and she doesn’t want to change that. At least not for Toby’s dream job and life in SF.

It’s basically the Pearson way or the highway.  Randall uproots his entire family for his dream and somehow comes out looking like  a saint.  Toby tries to uproot his family and is made to look like a complete asshole.   I would love for Toby to financially support the kids but cut off Kate.  See how well her little job pays when she has to support herself.  But she knows she can drag Toby through courts and collect half his pay.  That way she can do whatever “fulfills” her for a job and still be financially stable.   Make her get a job at Walmart to make ends meet and see if she doesn’t go running to San Francisco.  
 

He hides things from her because she is a whiny bitch about everything.  He makes all sorts of plans for them which she doesn’t like so he immediately scraps the plans to make her happy.  He doesn’t pout or give her a big lecture, he just scraps everything and does what she wants to do.  The exception was the work party but I can see both sides of that.  He was trying to get her to meet his coworkers and they all seemed genuinely nice.  
 

Everyone keeps talking about Kates “connections” in LA but what does she really have there?  Her mother is eventually moving to PA.  Kevin is an actor that can leave at any time.  She has ONE friend who is busy with her twins and her new boyfriend.  The fact that she has lived in LA for this long and only has one friend is a good indication of what a miserable person she is. 

[Empress1]

5 minutes ago, qtpye said:

In this era of post pandemic remote work, couldn’t Toby’s tech company arrange for him to work remotely and maybe come into the office a couple times a month?

Particularly since he works in tech; they should be used to remote work. I work remotely and if I have my way, I won’t go into an office every day ever again in my working life. The show seems to be pretending that COVID never existed though. They acknowledged it earlier on (masks, Toby did a couple of Zoom interviews) but have stopped doing so. (We’re still in a pandemic - I would not go to an indoor cocktail party that size with no masks in sight.)

[Cheyanne11]

1 hour ago, GeorgiaRai said:

Why do we even need a Big Green Egg Incident now?  They've already ruined Toby & Kate; why subject us to more of their angst and bitterness and household-appliance drama?

I'm expecting that Toby will be on a work call when the Big Green Egg attacks Jack, thus ~proving he's not only a terrible husband, but an awful father.

1 hour ago, Rootbeer said:

The show has always played fast and loose with the economic realities of life

Like how much Toby has to be making to entertain buying that SF house.   

[Boo Boo]

On 3/22/2022 at 12:41 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

This episode was co-written by Chrissy.

Damn, I'm impresssed.  I thought this was one of the best recently. Of course as others noted, it had the typical unrealistic stuff, but I enjoyed the dialogue.

Edited March 24, 2022 by Boo Boo

[SunnyBeBe]

I watched the episode again…just to make sure…..

The show really tries hard to portray Kate a certain way.  They want her to be a standout Pearson!  I’m just not sure they accomplish that for me.  I think that with different writing, it could have been done.
 

This episode once again demonstrates how the writers want us to see how hard Kates’s working at dieting, so they show how she waves off a piece of birthday cake. But, generally, an occasional celebratory treat isn’t the cause of morbid obesity.  The writers know this, right?   They show how insensitive Toby’s boss is to only serve sweet treats at the party……most people serve other options like a protein or veggie.  But, Toby’s boss is terrible and Kate is put upon and must eat cookies, because she’s in this horrible situation.   Kate never has swollen ankles or sore feet from being on them all day. She was sight seeing, but all revved up to walk hills in her heels that evening, but mean old, I mean NEW Toby has to call a Lyft to spare her.   Oh, the nerve of that guy.  🙄  When she looked out at the skyline of Toby’s apt window, she couldn’t even pretend that she thought it was beautiful…she just paid it lip service with this uncomfortable look on her face. This was before she got really upset.   

 

The show just isn’t honest about Kate.  They are invested in portraying her as a women who has no real struggles with her roles as wife and mother, yet she doesn’t seem to be capable of happiness.  She can’t be happy with a depressed person and can’t be happy with a happy person.  They show all the pep talks from her dad, encouraging sermons from her mom, and all her whining to everyone.  It’s exhausting.  And, they never really address her being able to physically care for two toddlers.  To me that is another missed opportunity. Lots of walks with the stroller, but that’s limited.  I wonder if the writers have skirted around it due to sensitivity to the actor.  I kind of get that, actually. 
 

Will Kate get a fairytale ending by the show?  If so, that is exactly what it will be, imo. I guess they really tried with The Hill.  It just didn’t work for me.  

[Jeddah]

I was so caught up in Kate vs Toby that I forgot to comment about Madison. She’s seen Fight Club before, but didn’t get the twist until now? And that twist is talked about in pop culture a lot. Is Madison really that stupid?

[CdrJanny]

30 minutes ago, Katie111 said:

Everyone keeps talking about Kates “connections” in LA but what does she really have there?  Her mother is eventually moving to PA.  Kevin is an actor that can leave at any time.  She has ONE friend who is busy with her twins and her new boyfriend.  The fact that she has lived in LA for this long and only has one friend is a good indication of what a miserable person she is. 

One friend is still more than the rest of the Pearsons have or have ever had.  😉

[chocolatine]

50 minutes ago, qtpye said:

In this era of post pandemic remote work, couldn’t Toby’s tech company arrange for him to work remotely and maybe come into the office a couple times a month?

Yes, absolutely. Many tech companies are doing that now, including FAANG, which before the pandemic insisted that being in the office every day was crucial to the "culture." I personally live in Seattle and work for a tech company that's headquartered in San Francisco. I'm in a leadership role, and more than half of our leadership team (directors and above) aren't based in SF. I plan to make quarterly visits to the office once it reopens, but that's because I want to, and not because our CEO required it.

Even if Toby's company is still insistent on having regular in-person time, it would be perfectly sufficient for him to come to the office one day a week. He could fly out in the morning, have the meetings he needs to have with his boss and colleagues, socialize with them at lunch or happy hour, then fly home at night. He wouldn't even need an apartment in SF. I have done that pre-pandemic when I had a team that was half in Seattle, half in Silicon Valley. It's a long day, but it's only once a week.

ETA: Even a lot of people who live in the SF Bay Area are only going back to the office one or two days a week. That saves them several hours in traffic and gives them more flexibility with their kids' schedules.

Edited March 24, 2022 by chocolatine

[CountryGirl]

As someone who has been home-based since the pandemic and WFH 3x/week prior to that, I continue to roll my eyes at Toby not being able to WFH most, if not all, of the time in our current, global environment. There are zero plans to have us return to the office on any type of regular basis, which I am thrilled with as I love WFH.

Having worked with colleagues across the globe for over a decade, things really will work quite well even if you're not face to face, which isn't gonna be possible on any sort of regular basis for me and my international counterparts.

Of course, Toby would probably say "neah" to a full-time WFH set-up. 

J/k.

Mostly. 😝

[Ohiopirate02]

Just now, chocolatine said:

Yes, absolutely. Many tech companies are doing that now, including FAANG, which before the pandemic insisted that being in the office every day was crucial to the "culture." I personally live in Seattle and work for a tech company that's headquartered in San Francisco. I'm in a leadership role, and more than half of our leadership team (directors and above) aren't based in SF. I plan to make quarterly visits to the office once it reopens, but that's because I want to, and not because our CEO required it.

Even if Toby's company is still insistent on having regular in-person time, it would be perfectly sufficient for him to come to the office one day a week. He could fly out in the morning, have the meetings he needs to have with his boss and colleagues, socialize with them at lunch or happy hour, then fly home at night. He wouldn't even need an apartment in SF. I have done that pre-pandemic when I had a team that was half in Seattle, half in Silicon Valley. It's a long day, but it's only once a week.

It makes me think that Toby is choosing to be in the office when he can WFH.  I also wonder if the job is really this demanding, or if Toby is choosing to take on more responsibility.  His coworkers love him, he's part of the cool kids for once in his life, he wants to be on the yacht with the CEO, in the stands with the rest of them at the Giants game, etc.  I still don't buy his this new me is the real me argument.  I think he is reveling in being part of something that he was never before due to his geeky nature, size, depression, etc.  It's going to his head.  It also can come crashing down at any moment.  

[himela]

Maybe Rebecca and Miguel move in with Kate and the babies so they have three salaries and they help with the kids while Kate is at work. This sounds like a good solution.

[ams1001]

33 minutes ago, Katie111 said:

I would love for Toby to financially support the kids but cut off Kate.  See how well her little job pays when she has to support herself.  But she knows she can drag Toby through courts and collect half his pay.  That way she can do whatever “fulfills” her for a job and still be financially stable.   Make her get a job at Walmart to make ends meet and see if she doesn’t go running to San Francisco.  

She also has Kevin, who made it clear to her (in the episode where he mentioned sharing a nanny or whatever and Toby got mad; I don't think Kevin even knew he was unemployed at that point) that if she ever needed help he was there.

 

30 minutes ago, Empress1 said:

(We’re still in a pandemic - I would not go to an indoor cocktail party that size with no masks in sight.)

I took my car in for service yesterday and almost no one was wearing a mask. It's a pretty open space with a super-high ceiling, and they still had every other chair turned backwards so no one could sit in them (but that doesn't leave 6 feet of space), but there were still a fair number of customers waiting and staff moving around. I actually didn't end up putting my mask on but I wasn't totally sure how I felt about that (afterwards I went to Target and I did wear it there). Later last night I was coughing some and making myself all paranoid (never mind that if I picked it up from someone in the morning I wouldn't have symptoms that quickly, and it was probably more to do with the increasingly dampening weather as a rain storm was approaching (supposed to be rainy and cloudy all day today and I woke up with a migraine thanks to it).

The party had me wondering anew about what kind of Covid world they're living in. Grey's Anatomy and Station 19 still put their little disclaimer up at the end of each episode reminding us that they are in a post-pandemic world, but TIU seems to have just dropped it. Time has always been pretty unspecific in Grey's world so it's easier for them, but TIU is clearly set in roughly the same timeline as the real world (though a few months behind now, it seems).

[Empress1]

16 minutes ago, ams1001 said:

The party had me wondering anew about what kind of Covid world they're living in. Grey's Anatomy and Station 19 still put their little disclaimer up at the end of each episode reminding us that they are in a post-pandemic world, but TIU seems to have just dropped it. Time has always been pretty unspecific in Grey's world so it's easier for them, but TIU is clearly set in roughly the same timeline as the real world (though a few months behind now, it seems).

They really seem to have just dropped it. It’s never mentioned. The show is clearly set in the present, although as you say the timing is a little off - it’s December 2021 in that world, I’m guessing. A season or two ago they were masked and there was talk of testing and quarantining, Beth’s dance studio struggled because of the pandemic (they showed students masked, then doing virtual classes, then the studio closing), but they just aren’t doing any of that. Deja traveled by bus maskless, they’re all indoors with people they don’t know, maskless and there’s no mention of testing or vaccines.

[greeneyedscorpio]

On 3/22/2022 at 11:28 PM, pennben said:

Honestly, I haven’t liked Toby from the get go. Been rooting for him to get off the screen since S1. I’ll only be disappointed at end if they get back together. Be gone all versions of him. This really has nothing to do about my feelings for Kate. Just never liked him from day 1. 

I hated him at the beginning, and for a long time into the show.  He's still by far one of my least favorites, but man, Kate makes it so hard to be on her side.

[watch2much]

Kate, to me, has always been and continues to be, my least favorite.  to me, she's the only one that hasn't shown any insight into why she's the way she is.  Randall does it probably too much, Kevin just the right amount.   but Kate? it's always someone else's fault.  

Toby may have made several missteps here, but he was always focused on keeping the family together.  Kate has just complained non-stop, as always.

[Boo Boo]

If the show is making Toby out to be the bad guy, well, he kind of is.  

There's nothing wrong with change.  Change is good.  But Toby is being sneaky about the changes.  

Kate isn't.  

Before the job loss and the need to move, there was his cross-fit obsession, the text messages with the girl in cross-fit classes and his secrecy over that.

Now you add in a not telling her about a job offer in LA, talking with a realtor about a house w/o her knowledge, it would be hard to continue to be the spouse for someone that is withholding really important information from you.

He's not going about this change in an honest way.

[BlancheDevoreaux]

3 hours ago, GeorgiaRai said:

I felt like they wanted me to think Toby was being insensitive to Kate by calling a Lyft and not expecting/assuming she'd prefer to walk [up hill, in cocktail attire and dressy shoes, to arrive within a certain timeframe at a fancy party for a first-time meeting with Toby's boss & colleagues].  The fact that she could do it on her own doesn't reflect at all on Toby's actions that night, because the circumstances were entirely different.  

Why do we even need a Big Green Egg Incident now?  They've already ruined Toby & Kate; why subject us to more of their angst and bitterness and household-appliance drama? We've all already chosen which parent we want to live with after this divorce, so... just move on, show!

I agree. My husband and I run half marathons together, but I'm not going to love the idea of walking a mile in a cocktail dress and heels uphill to meet people important to my husband for the first time. I would not be insulted he wanted to call a ride share.

2 hours ago, Rootbeer said:

This would be 'getting her ducks in a row' Pearson-style, since we all know that her salary even as a full-time teaching assistant wouldn't begin to cover their actual living expenses.  The show has always played fast and loose with the economic realities of life; but we've also seen Kate being very dependent on others to pave the way for her and take care of her.  Whether is was her daddy at the pool, living with her mom and working at a diner as an adult, working as her brother's personal assistant; Kate seemingly has never had to actually support herself, let alone her kids which is a pretty major thing for a middle aged woman.  I personally don't know any 40 something women who've never had to support themselves at some point.

It seems clear that she still expects someone else to pick up the financial slack for her even if she divorces Toby since she wants to remain in her current home and continue to work for subsistence wages.  I don't see Kate making realistic plans for her future; I see her once again, living in her own fantasy and letting others do the hard stuff for her.  Kevin will be paying her mortgage and a whole lot more once her  divorce is final and any alimony she receives ends.

Kate is miserable and seems to be looking for either quick fixes or for someone else to fix the problem for her (and on her terms) most of the time. 

1 hour ago, CountryGirl said:

Kate and the kids moving to SF would not fix the problems in this marriage. It would be putting a band-aid on a broken leg and a temporary salve for the gaping wound. Toby would have everything as he has it now, his personal life fitting in the corners his work life allows while Kate would have given up everything to please him. She would resent him for feeling like he forced her into it and he would resent her resentment.

I am all for fighting to make marriages work absent abuse and serial cheating, but staying together for the kids is great for no one, kids included. 

Never said "stay together for the kids." I said they made a commitment and just deciding they can be happy on their own is a stupid and incredibly selfish reason to get a divorce. They need to be trying to make the marriage work and since they, at least at one time, absolutely adored one another and neither is in a dangerous situation, they should try to work together to salvage their relationship.

Edited March 24, 2022 by BlancheDevoreaux

[Rootbeer]

2 minutes ago, BlancheDevoreaux said:

 

Kate is miserable and seems to be looking for either quick fixes or for someone else to fix the problem for her (and on her terms) most of the time. 

Never said "stay together for the kids." I said they made a commitment and just deciding they can be happy on their own is a stupid and incredibly selfish reason to get a divorce. They need to be trying to make the marriage work and since they at one time absolutely adored one another and neither is in a dangerous situation, they should try to work together to salvage their relationship.

It would be nice to see either one of them suggest counseling and actually attend a session or two before calling it quits.  Their main issue, from my POV, is lack of communication with one another and that is something that a good counselor can help them achieve.  Even if they do divorce, they're going to be jointly parenting their kids for the next couple decades and they're going to need to do a better job of communicating.

[BlancheDevoreaux]

Just now, Rootbeer said:

It would be nice to see either one of them suggest counseling and actually attend a session or two before calling it quits.  Their main issue, from my POV, is lack of communication with one another and that is something that a good counselor can help them achieve.  Even if they do divorce, they're going to be jointly parenting their kids for the next couple decades and they're going to need to do a better job of communicating.

spot on

[Empress1]

21 minutes ago, BlancheDevoreaux said:

I agree. My husband and I run half marathons together, but I'm not going to love the idea of walking a mile in a cocktail dress and heels uphill to meet people important to my husband for the first time

I do triathlons and actively enjoy walking and I agree with you. Cocktail attire is not walking attire. I would have been the one who said “walk uphill in heels? Nah, let’s get another Lyft.”

[circumvent]

2 hours ago, Empress1 said:

Particularly since he works in tech; they should be used to remote work. I work remotely and if I have my way, I won’t go into an office every day ever again in my working life. The show seems to be pretending that COVID never existed though. They acknowledged it earlier on (masks, Toby did a couple of Zoom interviews) but have stopped doing so. (We’re still in a pandemic - I would not go to an indoor cocktail party that size with no masks in sight.)

This show and most other shows restarted production when the Covid numbers of the first wave started going down. Then came Delta but like so many people who believe in magical thinking and that if you think hard enough things get better, the studios decided to pretend the pandemic was over. I guess more than one show had some sort of disclaimer about the show being in a imagined time, the future when there is no more Covid pandemic, and with a PSA to keep safe and not taking risks. So, yes, in the show the pandemic came and went, things are back to normal or, as I call it, it is fantasy

[CountryGirl]

52 minutes ago, Boo Boo said:

If the show is making Toby out to be the bad guy, well, he kind of is.  

There's nothing wrong with change.  Change is good.  But Toby is being sneaky about the changes.  

Kate isn't.  

Before the job loss and the need to move, there was his cross-fit obsession, the text messages with the girl in cross-fit classes and his secrecy over that.

Now you add in a not telling her about a job offer in LA, talking with a realtor about a house w/o her knowledge, it would be hard to continue to be the spouse for someone that is withholding really important information from you.

He's not going about this change in an honest way.

Kate is many things, but I have never seen her be as intentionally deceitful as Toby has been.

[CountryGirl]

47 minutes ago, BlancheDevoreaux said:

Never said "stay together for the kids." I said they made a commitment and just deciding they can be happy on their own is a stupid and incredibly selfish reason to get a divorce. They need to be trying to make the marriage work and since they, at least at one time, absolutely adored one another and neither is in a dangerous situation, they should try to work together to salvage their relationship.

And I never said you did.

IMO, their main impetus to stay together, given how far they have grown apart, would be for their two children whom they both love dearly to stay under the same roof, which is reason enough to fight for their marriage but not to stay if things remain unresolved. 

It's clear that they are still together for a while longer (thus the looming Big Green Egg incident that is the apparent final straw) so I'm sensing even if Kate is getting her ducks in a row, as anyone should if they feel a major life-altering decision could be in the near-term (not tomorrow, mind you), that they do both try to make things work. What that entails, exactly, remains to be seen. 

I also don't see it selfish for them to ultimately go on separate paths while co-parenting. Life is too damn short, especially with our current environment, to be miserable.

[himela]

1 hour ago, watch2much said:

to me, she's the only one that hasn't shown any insight into why she's the way she is. 

In the contrary, I think the show has shown more than enough that Kate is like this because she was her father's favorite and she was used to get whatever she liked from him and when she lost him she spent her whole life doing the exact same thing with other people who were not taking this until she found Toby.

The scene at the pool when Jack tells her to let go and she says "why would I?" is really telling. She had no reason to let go and take her life into her own hands because she knew her dad would guide her and protect her. That's why she was the most "lost" of the three when their dad died. That's why she told her brothers that she sees nothing looking at her future; because she was expecting Jack to show her what her future should be and she never knew how to decide and act by herself.

Walking that hill was the first time she did exactly that.

[truebluesmoky]

5 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I watched the episode again…just to make sure…..

The show really tries hard to portray Kate a certain way.  They want her to be a standout Pearson!  I’m just not sure they accomplish that for me.  I think that with different writing, it could have been done.
 

This episode once again demonstrates how the writers want us to see how hard Kates’s working at dieting, so they show how she waves off a piece of birthday cake. But, generally, an occasional celebratory treat isn’t the cause of morbid obesity.  The writers know this, right?   They show how insensitive Toby’s boss is to only serve sweet treats at the party……most people serve other options like a protein or veggie.  But, Toby’s boss is terrible and Kate is put upon and must eat cookies, because she’s in this horrible situation.   Kate never has swollen ankles or sore feet from being on them all day. She was sight seeing, but all revved up to walk hills in her heels that evening, but mean old, I mean NEW Toby has to call a Lyft to spare her.   Oh, the nerve of that guy.  🙄  When she looked out at the skyline of Toby’s apt window, she couldn’t even pretend that she thought it was beautiful…she just paid it lip service with this uncomfortable look on her face. This was before she got really upset.   

 

The show just isn’t honest about Kate.  They are invested in portraying her as a women who has no real struggles with her roles as wife and mother, yet she doesn’t seem to be capable of happiness.  She can’t be happy with a depressed person and can’t be happy with a happy person.  They show all the pep talks from her dad, encouraging sermons from her mom, and all her whining to everyone.  It’s exhausting.  And, they never really address her being able to physically care for two toddlers.  To me that is another missed opportunity. Lots of walks with the stroller, but that’s limited.  I wonder if the writers have skirted around it due to sensitivity to the actor.  I kind of get that, actually. 
 

Will Kate get a fairytale ending by the show?  If so, that is exactly what it will be, imo. I guess they really tried with The Hill.  It just didn’t work for me.  

FWIW, I didn’t think the scene with Kate eating the desserts at the cocktail party was trying to suggest that Toby’s boss was insensitive to serve them. I think we were supposed to see that in her happy life in LA, it’s easier for her to make healthy choices. She doesn’t have the cake at the retirement party, and she’s drinking water while Madison drinks wine during their movie night. It’s not until the stress of seeing San Francisco Cool Guy Toby chatting about fantasy basketball with his coworkers and leaving her alone on their special weekend together that she gives in to stress eating multiple desserts. I think it’s supposed to be an illustration of how much happier she is in her normal routines at home.

Edited March 24, 2022 by truebluesmoky

[Jillybean]

10 hours ago, himela said:

I think some people just dislike Kate because they have an idea in their head that her being that fat and actually not skilled with anything would mean she doesn't get to have a fit, wealthy husband who loves her that much and is willing to work long hours to keep her happy. I think some poster even said it earlier, such obese women don't get to have a fit, handsome husband at home or something.

I have a tough time liking Kate because she seems so unhappy and negative at least 90% of the time. She seems to have a sense of entitlement and takes little responsibility for her own self-worth and happiness. We haven't seen her working a full-time job since the show started, and she could have gotten one at any time. I really think she is the least evolved of the Big Three. The others have at least worked on their issues, though I find Randall often to be insufferable or at least annoying AF. He is trying. Perhaps now that the show is ending, Kate is going to take charge of her own happiness? I wish they had done it earlier. It's a little too late for many of us viewers who lost patience with her seasons ago. Weight notwithstanding. Though I do wonder, if she does become more self-actualized starting now, why she hasn't lost any weight by the time she marries PMJ in a few years.

Edited March 24, 2022 by Jillybean

[CountryGirl]

10 hours ago, himela said:

I'm wondering, what would people say if Randall was in Toby's place and he was the one behaving like this to Beth? Would people not be mad at Randall and try to encourage Beth not to take his shit and take her life in her own hands?

I think some people just dislike Kate because they have an idea in their head that her being that fat and actually not skilled with anything would mean she doesn't get to have a fit, wealthy husband who loves her that much and is willing to work long hours to keep her happy. I think some poster even said it earlier, such obese women don't get to have a fit, handsome husband at home or something.

The only thing I find unrealistic with Kate is her getting pregnant.

 

I was one that wasn't thrilled with Randall's plans and said as much at the time. That Beth found a way to make it work does not mean Kate is some failure with her situation. Every marriage is different, every relationship unique to the couple involved in it. Randall was not wrong for wanting to pursue his dream of helping people in William's old neighborhood just as Toby isn't wrong for wanting a career he actually enjoys. It's their methods I take issue with and it is isn't as if Beth said, "Okay, babe, let me start packing." She had her share of disagreement and debate as was her right and the general consensus (general, so beyond this forum) was that Beth had every right to her feelings, so Kate should be owed the same courtesy but because it's "Kate" vs "Beth," it sometimes feels like a different standard.

Lord knows I find Kate insufferable at times, but this is not one of them. I do think, in general, there is still the stigma associated with someone being overweight. That they are lazy and/or stupid and have no hopes, goals, or dreams beyond where they can get their next super-sized combo from McDonald's. I've seen it with my husband and how he was treated differently when he was overweight than when he was thin. Being devalued because of one's appearance. It's devastating to witness so I can only imagine it what it is to literally be in someone Kate's size's shoes.

I also see, even in 2022, there is still this sense of SAHP (stay-at-home-parent) not really "working," but sitting around all day and throwing a Cheeto or two at the kids while binge-watching Bridgerton (insert whatever binge-show you like here). I have more than a few friends who are stay-at-home parents, which is IMO very much a full-time, 24/7 job, some with a part-time job like Kate's and I would argue they have skills and have initiative. Many of which they still use even if not attached to a job with a title and not as readily visible. Kate got her degree and is using the skills she has gained through education and life to raise her children and help foster learning and development in special needs kids. I can knock Kate for other things, but again, this isn't one of them. 

[tennisgurl]

3 hours ago, Cheyanne11 said:

I'm expecting that Toby will be on a work call when the Big Green Egg attacks Jack, thus ~proving he's not only a terrible husband, but an awful father.

4 hours ago, Rootbeer said:

This whole plot is slowly turning into some 90s/early 00s family movie where the dad works too much and misses his sons baseball game because he was talking on his hilariously clunky cellphone to his business office where he does business so the child is forever traumatized and everyone treats him like he just ax murdered an orphanage because he works a lot. Now, to learn his lesson and save his marriage, Toby just needs to turn into a dog, or turn into Santa, or learn that he can talk to animals, or become a snowman, or hire a magical nanny, or learn that he's Peter Pan...

Edited March 24, 2022 by tennisgurl

[CountryGirl]

29 minutes ago, himela said:

In the contrary, I think the show has shown more than enough that Kate is like this because she was her father's favorite and she was used to get whatever she liked from him and when she lost him she spent her whole life doing the exact same thing with other people who were not taking this until she found Toby.

The scene at the pool when Jack tells her to let go and she says "why would I?" is really telling. She had no reason to let go and take her life into her own hands because she knew her dad would guide her and protect her. That's why she was the most "lost" of the three when their dad died. That's why she told her brothers that she sees nothing looking at her future; because she was expecting Jack to show her what her future should be and she never knew how to decide and act by herself.

Walking that hill was the first time she did exactly that.

Beautifully said.

I like to think that as we were watching her ascend the hill and flashing back to her early childhood and early adulthood that she was flashing back as well and finally deciding to take her life into her own hands and steer her own course instead of floating along, hanging onto whoever was there and willing.

That she could be her own anchor for the first time in her life. 

[GeorgiaRai]

1 minute ago, tennisgurl said:

This whole plot is slowly turning into some 90s/early 00s family movie where the dad works too much and misses his sons baseball game because he was talking on his hilariously clunky cellphone to his business office where he does business  so the child is forever traumatized and everyone treats him like he just ax murdered an orphanage because he works a lot. Now, to learn his lesson and save his marriage, Toby just needs to turn into a dog, or turn into Santa, or learn that he can talk to animals, or become a snowman, or hire a magical nanny, or learn that he's Peter Pan...

All while "Cat's in the Cradle" plays in the background....

[CountryGirl]

1 minute ago, tennisgurl said:

This whole plot is slowly turning into some 90s/early 00s family movie where the dad works too much and misses his sons baseball game because he was talking on his hilariously clunky cellphone to his business office where he does business  so the child is forever traumatized and everyone treats him like he just ax murdered an orphanage because he works a lot. Now, to learn his lesson and save his marriage, Toby just needs to turn into a dog, or turn into Santa, or learn that he can talk to animals, or become a snowman, or hire a magical nanny, or learn that he's Peter Pan...

I would watch that spin-off. LOL.

With them still filming this season (last I heard), you watch, TPTB are reading all of this and are going to have Toby interrupt the Phate wedding during the "speak now" piece and Kate goes rushing off to him. And I could live with that. 

[himela]

1 minute ago, CountryGirl said:

Beautifully said.

Thank you. :)

[Crs97]

3 hours ago, Katie111 said:

But she knows she can drag Toby through courts and collect half his pay.  That way she can do whatever “fulfills” her for a job and still be financially stable.

And come across as the super mom who prioritizes her children so much better than her workaholic ex-husband.

[CountryGirl]

All debate aside (which I have really enjoyed all of the different perspectives), I have to say, good on show for turning out the kind of episode that could give us so much dialogue. You know it's a good episode when it sparks this kind of discussion, even if was sad to watch.

[ams1001]

18 minutes ago, Jillybean said:

Though I do wonder, if she does become more self-actualized starting now, why she hasn't lost any weight by the time she marries PMJ in a few years.

I think that's mostly just a function of reality. They can't have the character be noticeably thinner in a flash forward when the actress is the size she is now. It's easy to have a character gain and lose weight only if that weight is fake (like Toby's was). Makeup and wardrobe can do a lot of things, but they can't physically shrink a real person, so they're limited in what they can write for her as far as a weight-loss journey goes. Even if the actress was on board to lose the weight, there's no guarantee she will be successful in doing it within the time frame of the filming of the show.

[SunnyBeBe]

2 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

I would watch that spin-off. LOL.

With them still filming this season (last I heard), you watch, TPTB are reading all of this and are going to have Toby interrupt the Phate wedding during the "speak now" piece and Kate goes rushing off to him. And I could live with that. 

I wouldn’t like it.  How could Kate ever be happy?  Toby can’t be enough for her.  Maybe, Toby dodges a bullet. Lol. Of course, the show would never go there. Toby will suffer for sure.  

[ams1001]

10 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I wouldn’t like it.  How could Kate ever be happy?  Toby can’t be enough for her.  Maybe, Toby dodges a bullet. Lol. Of course, the show would never go there. Toby will suffer for sure.  

I'm hoping the sad-looking Toby in the flash forward is only sad in the moment because of the reason he is in PA, not because his life went to pot after the divorce.

[Sake614]

I have zero experience with state assistance for special needs children, so I may be wildly off base. But isn’t it, like any other state assistance, need based? If Toby has a high-paying job, how much help would they actually get?

[Crs97]

5 minutes ago, Sake614 said:

I have zero experience with state assistance for special needs children, so I may be wildly off base. But isn’t it, like any other state assistance, need based? If Toby has a high-paying job, how much help would they actually get?

Pretty much and they would get little to no assistance while Jack is underage.  My favorite was an advocate telling us about accommodations we should consider adding to our house because the state would only require us to pay our share.  When we asked what our share would be and he pulled out his chart . . . 100%.

[BlancheDevoreaux]

 

45 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

And come across as the super mom who prioritizes her children so much better than her workaholic ex-husband.

Who runs the PTA, has no problem whipping up 2 dozen cupcakes for the bake sale the next day, knows not just the names but also the birthday and parents' names and addresses of the kids' best friends, while still holding down a job.

[Infie]

Yeah, for me, I'm with Toby on this.

Kate demanding to know 'the number' - If he'd responded to that WITH a number, there would be no path forward that doesn't end badly for everyone.  Providing the number just leads to a deep dive on the details of the number.  Now, maybe that's ultimately what they need - Kate has not shown any particular skills at money management other than not really graciously accepting other people supporting her - but in a fight is the wrong place to take that path.  I've got altogether too much experience with people who argue just like Kate and if you hit the 'just give me your completely detailed example' stage then it's time to stop for a while.  Toby could have taken out a spreadsheet with all of the miniscule details written out ad nauseum and Kate would have pointed to a single cell with $500 in it and said 'That is actually $495' like that changed the whole picture.  

I didn't feel that Toby was making an ultimatum.  He was just being clear.  If Kate wants to move ahead with the family together then it would have to be in San Francisco.  Not because it gives Toby everything he wants, but because the logistical problems of being separated are not sustainable - which was what Kate initially said - and the only way forward right now that lets them plan to provide *together* for their son is San Francisco.  Now, sure - Toby could stay in San Francisco and Kate can stay in Los Angeles and Toby can provide for Jack, but that would not be together.  

Toby can't quit his job and move back to Los Angeles and have the whole family live on Kate's part time teacher salary. 

Toby can't quit his job and move back to Los Angeles and have the whole family live on and provide for Jack's needs on Kate's full time teacher salary. 

If Toby quits *three months* into his job, his chances of getting hired anywhere else drop dramatically.  That is a huge red flag on a resume, and he had already looked in Los Angeles for a long time before the San Francisco job came up.  Yes, he got a job offer in LA - which he turned down because it wasn't enough to both support the family and provide for Jack's needs, and likely also because if you drop jobs three months in it hurts your credibility for a long time.  What if the LA job didn't work out - you're usually on probation for a period of time - and he was unemployed again?  He has to stick with the known option because he has a wife and two kids to support and one of them is special needs. Toby's job isn't like working in a diner where if you leave you can just get the next one.  Being out of work in IT is a multimonth effort to get hired elsewhere, and that's if you look great on paper, and I know because I essentially have Toby's job. 

So frustrating. 

[BlancheDevoreaux]

1 hour ago, CountryGirl said:

And I never said you did.

IMO, their main impetus to stay together, given how far they have grown apart, would be for their two children whom they both love dearly to stay under the same roof, which is reason enough to fight for their marriage but not to stay if things remain unresolved. 

It's clear that they are still together for a while longer (thus the looming Big Green Egg incident that is the apparent final straw) so I'm sensing even if Kate is getting her ducks in a row, as anyone should if they feel a major life-altering decision could be in the near-term (not tomorrow, mind you), that they do both try to make things work. What that entails, exactly, remains to be seen. 

I also don't see it selfish for them to ultimately go on separate paths while co-parenting. Life is too damn short, especially with our current environment, to be miserable.

I think we are just not going to agree here. I think a better plan here would be for Kate and Toby to learn how to not be miserable by better communicating their hopes, plans, and ambitions rather than just deciding their current lives make them miserable and chucking it the window. If both people are decent humans, and nothing has indicated otherwise, and both care about either other and, again, nothing has indicated otherwise, they can work together to help each other achieve their dreams and ambitions. It is just going to require communicating and deciding what they are willing to sacrifice. I would hope that their marriage would be one of the last things they were willing to sacrifice.

[SunnyBeBe]

20 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

Pretty much and they would get little to no assistance while Jack is underage.  My favorite was an advocate telling us about accommodations we should consider adding to our house because the state would only require us to pay our share.  When we asked what our share would be and he pulled out his chart . . . 100%.

My state recognizes Special Needs Trusts that can be established with strict guidelines, and allows a disabled person to qualify for certain benefits, excluding the balance in the Trust.  

[chocolatine]

3 hours ago, CountryGirl said:

As someone who has been home-based since the pandemic and WFH 3x/week prior to that, I continue to roll my eyes at Toby not being able to WFH most, if not all, of the time in our current, global environment. There are zero plans to have us return to the office on any type of regular basis, which I am thrilled with as I love WFH.

That's a failure on the writers' part, not a character flaw on Toby's. The writers are pretending that all office-based work went back to exactly the way it was before the pandemic, when in reality, it has changed forever.

3 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

It makes me think that Toby is choosing to be in the office when he can WFH.  I also wonder if the job is really this demanding, or if Toby is choosing to take on more responsibility.  His coworkers love him, he's part of the cool kids for once in his life, he wants to be on the yacht with the CEO, in the stands with the rest of them at the Giants game, etc. 

I can definitely see Toby as someone who has FOMO (yes, that's a term that adults in the tech industry actually use) in that regard, but it still doesn't make sense that his employer is operating like companies did pre-pandemic. As I said in a previous post, in the real world, even his colleagues who live in SF aren't likely to go back to the office five days a week. I do agree that he's likely volunteering to take on more responsibilities because he wants to be the guy who gets promoted every two years and underestimates the toll this kind of work style takes on a family. 

3 hours ago, himela said:

Maybe Rebecca and Miguel move in with Kate and the babies so they have three salaries and they help with the kids while Kate is at work. This sounds like a good solution.

Rebecca and Miguel are retired, so neither of them draws a salary. Since Rebecca only started working in her late 40s, she probably doesn't have much in terms of retirement savings, so it's a fair assumption that Miguel's savings and investments provide for the both of them. Also, the plan is for Rebecca and Miguel to move to the house in PA that Kevin is building, so that rules out moving in with Kate.