S02.E08: The Viscount Who Loved Me

[tennisgurl]

34 minutes ago, Kirsty said:

What was your favourite scene from this season? Mine isn't going to be an original pick, because I loved the Anthony/Kate scene after dinner with the Sheffields, especially Anthony's monologues there. "You are the bane of my existence. And the object of all my desires." etc.

Very solid pick of course, but I have to go with the hunting scene. They look so beautiful together and their chemistry was on absolute fire, I am just such a sucker for those kinds of "here, let me show you how to do this thing that allows me to get super close to you" romance scenes. 

I also love the scene where Anthony is trying to prove his nautical skills to Kate, he falls into the water, and Kate tells Edwina not to stare as he comes out of the water all sexy like while she stares intensely. Need a drink Kate? Because your looking a little thirsty...

[dubbel zout]

1 hour ago, Enero said:

She was just as much to blame for mining scheme going south as he was. 

Lord Featheringham was cheating people before he got to London. I suspect that's a big reason he left America in the first place. I can't feel sorry for anyone who knows they're breaking the law. The people who invested with him were way too gullible, and that's on them, but they didn't deserve to be cheated.

[Brn2bwild]

6 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

He did have an obligation to Prudence and Penelope.  Their care was technically their father's as the progeny of the Featherington estate.  It would have been one of the many responsibilities the new Lord F. inherited along with the title. This was a time where children were their father's property.  Upon his death, the responsibility for their care until marriage passed to the heir.  

It seems like that's an acknowledged obligation when the heir is a son/close relative, but not so much when the heir is more distant.  If it were, Henry Dashwood wouldn't have had to beg to his son on his deathbed to take care of his half sisters, and the Bennetts wouldn't have had to worry about the daughters marrying before Mr. Bennett died because Mr. Collins would have supplied their dowries for marriage and seen to it that they made good matches.

[SnarkAttack]

I know the dress style was the empire waist back in the regency time period, but I'd sure like to see these ladies in a different style.  

Having said that, I thought Edwina's wedding dress was lovely.

[Door County Cherry]

6 hours ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

Ultimately I think the question of whether or not Kate and Anthony had intercourse (and the possibility she could have been pregnant) doesn't really matter.

I agree with this.  It's being discussed as a big gaping hole but the only reason we know how Simon and Daphne "finished" last season is because the show wanted to reinforce that he didn't want to impregnate her.  

In terms of Kate and Anthony, they wanted the focus of that love scene to be Anthony's dogged determination to please her. "Do you know how many ways a woman can be seduced?"  

And they showed that.  The things they did are enough for Anthony to feel obliged to her whether or not they had babymaking sex.  As we saw in the flash forward, it wasn't a session that resulted in a baby because she wasn't pregnant.  So story wise, they told us all we needed to know.

Not that speculation isn't fun.  It is. I just think it's an okay place to leave room for speculation. 

I think more of a gaping hole is what happened after sex.  How did Kate get home from the Bridgerton's?  Did her family leave without her?  Did Anthony just fall asleep and she snuck away to rejoin her family?  They made it seem like she ran into her house wearing her nightgown in a panic after being with Anthony but why was she in her nightgown?  That's a head scratcher.

1 hour ago, Kirsty said:

In spite of their fantastic chemistry, does anyone else think that in real life, people like Kate and Anthony would not make the best match? They're too alike! Both highstrung, stubborn, headstrong, and controlling. Each one would be difficult to live with, and would likely marry someone more easygoing. Or at least that's what I've seen happen in reality. But YMMV.

It's hard to say.  It would really depend on how they communicate once they trust one another.  They might make great teammates. 

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

What a person says before sex may be just a calculated means to get sex. Sometimes a person thinks to be on love but after sex notices to feel it no more. 

Kate wouldn't have no reason to get nervous breakdown if Anthony had told her afterwards that he loved her and wanted to marry her. 

But there's also the phenomenon of the post-sex haze.  Many "I love yous" slip out during and immediately after orgasms that really aren't true "I love yous".  The timing of his declaration of love was perfect.  It wasn't to get under her skirt.  It wasn't irrational.  It wasn't out of a perceived obligation.  He thought she was leaving.  He told her he loved her because he wanted to give her that knowledge freely without being under duress, in a lustful haze or fulfilling an expectation.

[ahisma]

2 hours ago, Kirsty said:

What was your favourite scene from this season?

I will second @bijoux on Anthony and Gregory, the family dancing at the empty ball, and Violet and Lady Danbury cracking up. 

My favorite Kate and Anthony scenes: Kate absolutely getting into pall mall (I was waiting for this, from the book!) and Kate and Anthony’s eyes riveted to each other on the dance floor. 

Other favorite scene: Edwina and King George. 

[eleanorofaquitaine]

1 hour ago, Door County Cherry said:

In terms of Kate and Anthony, they wanted the focus of that love scene to be Anthony's dogged determination to please her. "Do you know how many ways a woman can be seduced?"  

Yes, I agree. After all, part of the argument they were having was about doing something for themselves instead of always doing the right thing for their families. Of course, Anthony being Anthony, his idea of "doing something for themselves" is him pleasing her but on the other hand, he was a little ahead of her in recognizing they don't always have to be sacrificing for others. The point of the scene, beyond you know of them finally having sex, was getting them both to that place. He was ready to be happy together; Kate still needed a little persuasion. 

Re favorite scenes - in this episode, I am going to go with Anthony and Violet after Violet shares the news that Kate is awake. Jonathan Bailey is such a wonderfully contained actor and I am really impressed at how he acts physically to show how contained Anthony is on the outside while he is clearly a cauldron of emotions on the inside. (For instance, the way that Anthony stands with his hands behind his back just shows a deliberate stillness). So when you finally see him give into emotion with Violet it has a big impact. Just the range of emotions you see on his face in like 5 seconds, it's pretty impressive. 

[Enero]

3 hours ago, Kirsty said:

What was your favourite scene from this season?

I thoroughly enjoyed all of the Kate/Anthony scenes. Outside of them, my favorite scene was the dinner from hell where Mary gave her parents the smack down. Yeah it got ugly, but it was great drama. I was glad she got an opportunity to speak her peace. Her parents were just awful, especially her mother. 
 

2 hours ago, Door County Cherry said:

I think more of a gaping hole is what happened after sex.  How did Kate get home from the Bridgerton's?  Did her family leave without her?  Did Anthony just fall asleep and she snuck away to rejoin her family?  They made it seem like she ran into her house wearing her nightgown in a panic after being with Anthony but why was she in her nightgown?  That's a head scratcher.

Yeah this was a huge plot hole. I just can’t see Mary and Lady Danbury leaving the Bridgerton  estate without Kate. That said, based on Kate’s morning after scene, I kind of got the impression that she’d just returned home that morning, had quickly changed into her night gown but was obviously still shook by her night with Anthony. If you watch closely, you’ll notice that the gown she wore the night before appears to be laying on the bed. I doubt it laid there all night so I concluded that she must’ve just snuck in at or before dawn, leaving Anthony at the gazebo. How she got back to the Danbury estate is beyond me. Did she walk? Is the estate that close? Was she able to get a ride? But from whom. 😂 

 

Quote

But there's also the phenomenon of the post-sex haze.  Many "I love yous" slip out during and immediately after orgasms that really aren't true "I love yous".  The timing of his declaration of love was perfect.  It wasn't to get under her skirt.  It wasn't irrational.  It wasn't out of a perceived obligation.  He thought she was leaving.  He told her he loved her because he wanted to give her that knowledge freely without being under duress, in a lustful haze or fulfilling an expectation.

This so much. That’s what I loved so much about Anthony’s speech to Kate in the gardens after their dance, him telling her he loved her but making it clear that she didn’t have to accept, embrace or allow his love. He just wanted her to have that knowledge  that he did indeed love her and had loved her since the moment they met and every moment there after. Swoon. 

 Honestly, Kate must have will of iron because if I was her I would’ve lost my dress, undergarments  and lady-hood way before that night in the gazebo. I mean some of the stuff he said to her on top of the way he’d look at her…whew…yeah I wouldn’t have been able to hold out as long as she did. 😂 
 

[ursula]

2 hours ago, Door County Cherry said:

I agree with this.  It's being discussed as a big gaping hole but the only reason we know how Simon and Daphne "finished" last season is because the show wanted to reinforce that he didn't want to impregnate her.  

 

It casts a different light if Kate was going to India with the chance she might be pregnant. After all the emphasis last season about sex and baby-making - not just Daphne, but also wrt Marina -  the audience's minds will automatically go there. So yeah, it is a gaping plot hole, and it's (imo) part of the problem with the way Kathony wasn't given the A-story treatment it deserved this season. 

 

[shapeshifter]

8 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Evidently we are supposed to believe that they didn't talk anything afterwards. If Anthony just started to sleep, it's no wonder that Kate became distressed and went riding in rain.

Don't they all do that?

[Door County Cherry]

52 minutes ago, ursula said:

It casts a different light if Kate was going to India with the chance she might be pregnant. After all the emphasis last season about sex and baby-making - not just Daphne, but also wrt Marina -  the audience's minds will automatically go there.

Or maybe the lack of discussion around pregnancy tells the tale. 

Things I remember seeing in the love scene (warning-I'm about to get more explicit than I ever thought I'd be about this):

• Kissing.
• Anthony kneeling before her.
• Anthony going down on her.
• Anthony kissing her from behind with his arm in front of her reaching past her torso to areas we weren't seeing in camera but I think the implication was clear what he was fondling. 

Things we didn't see:

• Any thought or worry about pregnancy on her end or his end.  These two are worldly enough to know if it should be a concern. And I do think he would have brought it up after she rejected him. Even if it's just to tell her to wait to see if there's a baby. 
• The traditional penetrative sex pumping motion.
• Clear evidence he ever had his pants off.  (Not that this would prove anything as there are non-penetrative things one can do without the pants on and penetrative things one can do with the pants on.)

 

[ursula]

22 minutes ago, Door County Cherry said:

Or maybe the lack of discussion around pregnancy tells the tale. 

Things I remember seeing in the love scene (warning-I'm about to get more explicit than I ever thought I'd be about this):

• Kissing.
• Anthony kneeling before her.
• Anthony going down on her.
• Anthony kissing her from behind with his arm in front of her reaching past her torso to areas we weren't seeing in camera but I think the implication was clear what he was fondling. 

Things we didn't see:

• Any thought or worry about pregnancy on her end or his end.  These two are worldly enough to know if it should be a concern. And I do think he would have brought it up after she rejected him. Even if it's just to tell her to wait to see if there's a baby. 
• The traditional penetrative sex pumping motion.
• Clear evidence he ever had his pants off.  (Not that this would prove anything as there are non-penetrative things one can do without the pants on and penetrative things one can do with the pants on.)

 

 

The point still stands that if people are still wondering and needing to piece together clues to decide if they did or did not have sex, it really wasn't clear. And all they needed to clarify an important topic in the Main Plot/Romance of the season was to shave off 4 minutes from Featherington drama to include it in a conversation. 

Also, we have no idea how worldly Kate was/is. Another key aspect of the lead character that was left vague and under-written.

 

 

[eleanorofaquitaine]

40 minutes ago, ursula said:

 

The point still stands that if people are still wondering and needing to piece together clues to decide if they did or did not have sex, it really wasn't clear. And all they needed to clarify an important topic in the Main Plot/Romance of the season was to shave off 4 minutes from Featherington drama to include it in a conversation. 

Also, we have no idea how worldly Kate was/is. Another key aspect of the lead character that was left vague and under-written.

 

 

But again... they did have sex. Whether or not they had actual intercourse is pretty incidental. Oral sex is sex in my opinion. The important plot point is not IMO whether or not Kate could have been pregnant; it is that they were intimate enough for Anthony to feel like they were obligated to get married. 

As for the idea that Kate and Anthony got the A-story treatment, well, I am not going to disagree that they could have trimmed the Featherington stuff a bit. In particular, I think that having the Featherington swindle AND Penelope as Lady Whistledown AND Eloise looking for Lady W AND Eloise and Theo meant we spent a little less time with Kate and Anthony. 

But I don’t think they didn't clarify that question of intercourse because they didn't have time. And I don’t think that the fewer sex scenes was because of the various other plots. I think they wanted to tell a different kind of story with Kate and Anthony and IMO what we lost in sex scenes was made up by a more emotionally interesting story.

[Ohiopirate02]

49 minutes ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

 

But I don’t think they didn't clarify that question of intercourse because they didn't have time. And I don’t think that the fewer sex scenes was because of the various other plots. I think they wanted to tell a different kind of story with Kate and Anthony and IMO what we lost in sex scenes was made up by a more emotionally interesting story.

I agree.  Season two told a different kind of romance story where the story did not require multiple sex scenes.   This is a story of two people who both have to realize love is not a weakness and  they deserve it.  I do wish we could have seen more of Kate's journey.  We are told about Kate in her conversation with Mary instead of shown with the Anthony flashbacks.  

The amount of sex scenes varies between couples.  My favorite historical romance author, Beverly Jenkins, has books that vary in heat level from one book opening with the heroine's orgasm to one where the final scene is the only PIV sex scene of the book.  It's all about matching the heat to the story.

[twoods]

My favorite scene was the Wrecking Ball dance scene. I have watched it at least 4 times and am still in love with it. The song was perfect, as were Kate and Anthony’s longing looks. The music this season was fantastic, and I can’t wait to hear what modern songs they will use next year.

[katha]

I fall somewhere in between when it comes to the execution of the Kate/Anthony romance. Agree that they told a different story in season two about two control freak micromanagers who had so thrown themselves into doing their duty and trying to make everyone else happy that they lost themselves. And it was very moving in parts. 

But I do think there was a bit of an imbalance that is frustrating. IMO Anthony absolutely got the leading man story arc and treatment. Everything about his journey is beautifully realized and acted. Kate did sometimes come across as a supporting act in various other people's plots, not only Anthony's. Because they kept her in "stubborn, rigid" mode for so long (too long for me), that can create a distance with the character. 

Simone Ashley, though she has been very positive otherwise, has made some comments where between the lines IMO you can pick up that she agrees that they left Kate's transformation and development too late by cramming it only into the last episodes and that it frustrated her as an actor. 

[CathieA]

Why was Kate always addressed as "Miss Sharma" instead of "Miss Kate Sharma"?  Edwina was always "Miss Edwina Sharma".

[CountryGirl]

I finally finished S2. While the E3/Bee episode was my favorite of the season, this came very, very close.

Anthony carrying Kate back gave me Sense and Sensibility vibes.

Of course, Anthony is so guilt-stricken that he can't even bring himself to visit. Because we need more drama before the season is through.

I laughed when Edwina pleaded with Kate to come back and like clockwork, her eyelids begin fluttering. Wouldn't she have tried this already days ago?

Anthony's relief and teary eyes when he learns Kate is awake. 

Then the long-awaited conversation where Violet expresses her sorrow that it was Anthony who had to be with his father the day he died. And then, going further, to share how she is sorry for what happened to him afterwards, where he was forced to be the head of the household at only 18 years old and too young for such responsibility. Then her encouragement of him to go after Kate, no matter what, as she would still choose the same life with Edmund, knowing how it wound end. Yes, Violet, "real true love IS worth it."

The angsty visit with Anthony finally coming to see Kate, tulips and his mother's ring in hand, but of course, it's not time for HEA just yet as Kate believes he's there and asking only out of obligation.

We had a nice moment with Anthony and Gregory with Anthony sharing details of their father, including his love of a good prank, with his youngest brother, who was likely too young to really remember him.

The reconciliation scene between Mary and Kate was so heartfelt and I love how these two view each other as mother and daughter. There are no steps, no halves, only wholes.

I cheered when the Bridgertons and Sharmas showed up at the Featherington Ball and Edwina and Kate decide to have some fun and dance with each other.

Edwina pushing for Kate to get her man and Kate using her recent injury as an excuse to lean on Anthony. That moment where he asks how many fingers he is holding up was hot, of course, as all their moments are, but yet so sweet and caring.

Elsewhere, Portia made me proud as she was the mother lioness protecting her cubs and getting the goods on Jack. 

Eloise had me rooting for Pen with her ripping Pen's room apart. I said this is the E7 thread, but Eloise kind of got herself into the pickle. 

Also, fuck off Colin because you suck. 

Queue up "Wrecking Ball" as Kate and Anthony dance and I loved the use of all the modern songs (I liked it when they did it in Reign as well). Screw the other couples who abandoned the dance floor. They knew they couldn't compete with their magic.

I loved Queen Charlotte shutting up the snarky ton and lying that it was her decision to cancel the wedding and basically telling them to get the fuck back out on the dance floor. 

Then the scene in the garden where Anthony pours his heart out and confesses his love and she confesses right back.

Then this exchange, a teasing Kate: "You DO know there will never be a day where you do not vex me."

His response (and OMG, I melted): "Is that a promise, Kathani Sharma?"

Saying her non-Anglicized name just spoke to me so much.

Wrapping up the series with another game of Pall Mall was perfection.

They are seriously just THE BEST couple. Who cannot keep their hands off of each other.

Off to read the rest of the comments.

[Ohiopirate02]

1 minute ago, CathieA said:

Why was Kate always addressed as "Miss Sharma" instead of "Miss Kate Sharma"?  Edwina was always "Miss Edwina Sharma".

This is the order of precedence.  The eldest daughter is known as Miss X, and all subsequent daughters are Miss First Name.  This is a time of rigid social classes and distinctions.  Birth order is  important and reflected in forms of address.  Antony is Lord Bridgerton sometimes his first name is given, but it is not technically necessary.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

20 minutes ago, CathieA said:

Why was Kate always addressed as "Miss Sharma" instead of "Miss Kate Sharma"?  Edwina was always "Miss Edwina Sharma".

It was the custom of the era to always refer to the eldest daughter as "Miss [Last Name]" and then the next daughters as "Miss [First Name]". You see it in Austen's novels, as well. 

I have been trying to figure out why people have responded so much to the three/four fingers scene and I think it is because Anthony is so serious all the time that it's nice to see him teasing Kate a bit. I think it is also a nice carry over from his conversation with Gregory, which was a reminder to him that he doesn't need to always be so serious. 

Edited April 5, 2022 by eleanorofaquitaine

[CountryGirl]

47 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

This is the order of precedence.  The eldest daughter is known as Miss X, and all subsequent daughters are Miss First Name.  This is a time of rigid social classes and distinctions.  Birth order is  important and reflected in forms of address.  Antony is Lord Bridgerton sometimes his first name is given, but it is not technically necessary.

I learned this from Sense and Sensibility. 

[bijoux]

I think it's always the eldest unmarried daughter who's Miss Last Name. So with Kate marrying Anthony Edwina gets promoted to Miss Sharma.

[shapeshifter]

Thanks for your excellent recap, @CountryGirl! It really RECAPtures the highlights!

This bit:

1 hour ago, CountryGirl said:

Anthony's relief and teary eyes when he learns Kate is awake.  

Then the long-awaited conversation where Violet expresses her sorrow that it was Anthony who had to be with his father the day he died. And then, going further, to share how she is sorry for what happened to him afterwards, where he was forced to be the head of the household at only 18 years old and too young for such responsibility. Then her encouragement of him to go after Kate, no matter what, as she would still choose the same life with Edmund, knowing how it wound end. Yes, Violet, "real true love IS worth it."

...brought to my mind the scene (a favorite of mine) when Edwina calmed the King and we saw the Queen's love for him, of which this bit almost reminds us:

1 hour ago, CountryGirl said:

I loved Queen Charlotte shutting up the snarky ton and lying that it was her decision to cancel the wedding and basically telling them to get the fuck back out on the dance floor. 

 

Edited April 5, 2022 by shapeshifter

[Roseanna]

16 hours ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

After all, part of the argument they were having was about doing something for themselves instead of always doing the right thing for their families. 

Actually neither of them had done the right thing for their family but what they imagined to be the right right thing which was not what they their family members wanted to them or themselves. 

There could have been plots even in a romance where the choice between love and duty was real, f.eg. if Antony and Edwina were already engaged before he met Kate.

  

[shapeshifter]

9 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Actually neither of them had done the right thing for their family but what they imagined to be the right right thing which was not what they their family members wanted to them or themselves. 

"Actually neither of them had done the right thing for their family but what they imagined to be the right right thing which was not what they their family members wanted to them or themselves" should be the logline for this season, @Roseanna!

[eleanorofaquitaine]

11 hours ago, katha said:

I fall somewhere in between when it comes to the execution of the Kate/Anthony romance. Agree that they told a different story in season two about two control freak micromanagers who had so thrown themselves into doing their duty and trying to make everyone else happy that they lost themselves. And it was very moving in parts. 

But I do think there was a bit of an imbalance that is frustrating. IMO Anthony absolutely got the leading man story arc and treatment. Everything about his journey is beautifully realized and acted. Kate did sometimes come across as a supporting act in various other people's plots, not only Anthony's. Because they kept her in "stubborn, rigid" mode for so long (too long for me), that can create a distance with the character. 

Simone Ashley, though she has been very positive otherwise, has made some comments where between the lines IMO you can pick up that she agrees that they left Kate's transformation and development too late by cramming it only into the last episodes and that it frustrated her as an actor. 

I'd like to respond to this in the book thread.

[CrowTRobot]

On 3/27/2022 at 7:22 PM, magdalene said:

I am not looking forward to Colin and Pen at all. They have zero chemistry with each other and the Colin actor to me has zero sex appeal. I wish they would recast him.

100% agree.  I am hoping against hope that next season is about Benedict.  I have no interest whatsoever in watching any sexy time with Colin.  He's too young and about as interesting as a wet sock.

Switching gears, one thing I never expected this show to do to me was bring me to tears but when Edwina spoke to the King, it really got to me.  Before he passed, my dad was in a similar mental and physical state as the King, only worse.  So to see someone express such kindness to someone like that was deeply moving.  Also, the King's performance was so touching, as well.  Just a beautiful and well done scene.

[shapeshifter]

4 minutes ago, CrowTRobot said:

Switching gears, one thing I never expected this show to do to me was bring me to tears but when Edwina spoke to the King, it really got to me.  Before he passed, my dad was in a similar mental and physical state as the King, only worse.  So to see someone express such kindness to someone like that was deeply moving.  Also, the King's performance was so touching, as well.  Just a beautiful and well done scene.

I too commented about this above, albeit from a slightly different perspective. 
For me, that scene with Edwina and the King justified watching the entire season.

[CountryGirl]

36 minutes ago, CrowTRobot said:

Switching gears, one thing I never expected this show to do to me was bring me to tears but when Edwina spoke to the King, it really got to me.  Before he passed, my dad was in a similar mental and physical state as the King, only worse.  So to see someone express such kindness to someone like that was deeply moving.  Also, the King's performance was so touching, as well.  Just a beautiful and well done scene.

I'm so sorry, @CrowTRobot. My MIL has Alzheimer's and it is so hard. 

ITA that the scene was so "touching" and made me feel for the King and the Queen (she can come off as a cold fish, but understandably so given her role), and she was so vulnerable here where she was not the monarch but a wife and woman so broken-hearted over her beloved. 

Beautiful, understated acting on the part of Golda and James.

[CountryGirl]

On 4/4/2022 at 2:21 PM, Kirsty said:

What was your favourite scene from this season? Mine isn't going to be an original pick, because I loved the Anthony/Kate scene after dinner with the Sheffields, especially Anthony's monologues there. "You are the bane of my existence. And the object of all my desires." etc.

It's a tie between the real proposal in the gardens where he called her "Kathani Sharma" and the bee scene (the play of emotions on Simone's face and how she goes from annoyed to confused to concerned and then the heat of being thatclose to Anthony and their reactions afterwards).

[bijoux]

Can you imagine a family dinner with Colin 'This one time in Greece', Eloise 'My inner life is so much more meaningful than yours' and Edwina 'I am finding myself'? I can just see Hyacinth demanding that her and Gregory be sent to the nursery but the adults are like no, if we suffer, you suffer.

Also, I just realized poor Hyacinth didn't get to play Pall Mall after asking for it at the end of last season. Le gasp. Hopefully she opted out herself because playing with Newton seemed more entertaining.

[CountryGirl]

38 minutes ago, bijoux said:

Can you imagine a family dinner with Colin 'This one time in Greece', Eloise 'My inner life is so much more meaningful than yours' and Edwina 'I am finding myself'? I can just see Hyacinth demanding that her and Gregory be sent to the nursery but the adults are like no, if we suffer, you suffer.

[roseslg]

I ended this feeling so much meh. So much meh. The acting for Kate was very wooden at times. The pacing was off, some of the storylines were just so convoluted. If they just did the family scenes and interactions and got rid of the nonsensical romantic storyline or at least have it resemble the books in some manner, and the discovery of Lady Whistledown and that whole Featherington plot line, it would feel less contrived. I think it doesn't help that I have read the books, and while I am not a purist by any means, this just strayed so far from that. Like Pluto far.

[MerBearHou]

4 hours ago, CrowTRobot said:

I have no interest whatsoever in watching any sexy time with Colin.  He's too young and about as interesting as a wet sock.

Ditto here.  If it's Penelope and Colin as a duo, they have a lot of growing up to do and a long way to go to hold my interest for an entire season.

I'm excited that Kate and Anthony will be in Seasons 3 and 4 -- I love this couple and their slow burn this season worked beautifully IMO. 

Turns out I didn't miss Rege-Jean Page at all!

Edited April 5, 2022 by MerBearHou

[moonorchid]

On 4/4/2022 at 11:21 AM, Kirsty said:

Both Anthony and Kate had issues that kept them apart for most of eight episodes. But the show delved into Anthony's problems with a flashback episode, while Kate didn't get the luxury of flashbacks that would have made her determined martyrdom more understandable, relatable, and sympathetic.

The book doesn’t delve too much into that either but from episode one, where Kate is telling Lady Danbury of her plan to get Edwina married to an English man to secure her and their mothers future, I inferred that Kate has remained unmarried because her father didn’t come from money so there would be no dowry’s and it’s heavily implied that when their father died she took on the responsibility for caring for Edwina when her mother couldn’t. It heavily mirrors the situation Anthony had with his fathers death. Kate essentially gave up her future for her sister and mother. It was enough explanation for me.

[Roseanna]

On 4/4/2022 at 9:24 PM, Brn2bwild said:

It seems like that's an acknowledged obligation when the heir is a son/close relative, but not so much when the heir is more distant.  If it were, Henry Dashwood wouldn't have had to beg to his son on his deathbed to take care of his half sisters, and the Bennetts wouldn't have had to worry about the daughters marrying before Mr. Bennett died because Mr. Collins would have supplied their dowries for marriage and seen to it that they made good matches.

Mr Collins was (relatively) a poor clergyman who, even after inheriting Bennet estate would have no means to give his five cousins dowries. After all,  their father could not so after wasting years he could have saved money, believing his wife would eventually give birth to a son. 

Instead, John Dashwood inherited a fortune and had married a rich woman who prevented her husband to be generous towards his half-sisters. 

[Roseanna]

9 hours ago, moonorchid said:

The book doesn’t delve too much into that either but from episode one, where Kate is telling Lady Danbury of her plan to get Edwina married to an English man to secure her and their mothers future, I inferred that Kate has remained unmarried because her father didn’t come from money so there would be no dowry’s and it’s heavily implied that when their father died she took on the responsibility for caring for Edwina when her mother couldn’t. It heavily mirrors the situation Anthony had with his fathers death. Kate essentially gave up her future for her sister and mother. It was enough explanation for me.

I don't think their situation was the same at all. Anthony could have taken care of his siblings while marrying himself. Having enough means,  he could marry any eligible woman who he chose and who accepted him. 

Instead, Kate had little chances to get married without a dowry. I haven't read the book but in the show the doesn't even want to marry but to become a governess. Helping her sister to get married is not giving up her own future, especially it took only a year. 

[Brn2bwild]

22 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Mr Collins was (relatively) a poor clergyman who, even after inheriting Bennet estate would have no means to give his five cousins dowries. After all,  their father could not so after wasting years he could have saved money, believing his wife would eventually give birth to a son. 

Instead, John Dashwood inherited a fortune and had married a rich woman who prevented her husband to be generous towards his half-sisters. 

Good point -- which shows the idea that the next heir was expected to inherit these burdens doesn't work.  As poor as he was, Mr. Collins was probably better off even as a clergyman than the new Lord Featherington.  So why should the new Lord Featherington be expected to provide dowries for the daughters of his predecessor?  

[katha]

On 4/4/2022 at 8:21 PM, Kirsty said:

Of Daphne's siblings in 2020, my faves were Anthony and Eloise for the actors' performances. That's still true, but crikey, Jonathan Bailey far exceeded my expectations as leading man. What an expressive actor! And he fully committed. Of course he had a terrific partner in Simone Ashley, but I didn't think she was given as much great material as he was. Which leads me to...

Both Anthony and Kate had issues that kept them apart for most of eight episodes. But the show delved into Anthony's problems with a flashback episode, while Kate didn't get the luxury of flashbacks that would have made her determined martyrdom more understandable, relatable, and sympathetic. Last season Simon had the issues and the flashbacks, where Daphne's only issue was ignorance and inexperience. I think there are a lot of romance novels like that, where the hero has some major hang-up, and it's the heroine's role to figure it out. And I guess that's what the show is working with. But I'd like if the show could flip things around, and give the heroine the hang-ups and character work and flashbacks next season. Or at least share them out a bit more equally. Judging by these two seasons, no matter if the Bridgerton is male or female, the man gets the major character arc.

In spite of their fantastic chemistry, does anyone else think that in real life, people like Kate and Anthony would not make the best match? They're too alike! Both highstrung, stubborn, headstrong, and controlling. Each one would be difficult to live with, and would likely marry someone more easygoing. Or at least that's what I've seen happen in reality. But YMMV.

What was your favourite scene from this season? Mine isn't going to be an original pick, because I loved the Anthony/Kate scene after dinner with the Sheffields, especially Anthony's monologues there. "You are the bane of my existence. And the object of all my desires." etc.

What I find frustrating is that Kate HAD this storyline, but it played out in the background and they didn't really ever properly focus on her until the very end. Edwina got more of a leading lady arc than Kate IMO. And this was absolutely not needed. What is interesting is that they flipped the narrative of the book in the sense that Anthony does the emotional work earlier and better than Kate in the series and then is helping her along on her emotional journey, which I thought was nice. But again, it would have been good if more attention was paid to Kate and she was more centralized as the heroine of the series. 

And yeah, two headstrong control freaks doesn't always make for the easiest relationship in real life, I'd guess. OTOH, they can check each other. You kinda saw how Anthony, but particularly Kate, had isolated themselves because they were too busy managing everything and forgot to live. A more easygoing person might just shrug and let it happen even when it becomes destructive. OTOH, Anthony started a positive way the dynamic can play out at the end where he kept on drawing Kate out of her usual MO. And I do think the sledgehammer way they both go about it is sometimes needed. We saw how a lot of what Violet/Daphne or Mary/Edwina tried for them just didn't reach. 

 

Edited April 7, 2022 by katha

[katha]

 

Edited April 7, 2022 by katha
Double post

[Llywela]

2 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

Good point -- which shows the idea that the next heir was expected to inherit these burdens doesn't work.  As poor as he was, Mr. Collins was probably better off even as a clergyman than the new Lord Featherington.  So why should the new Lord Featherington be expected to provide dowries for the daughters of his predecessor?  

Primarily, I think, because where Mr. Collins's storyline was actually written in the Regency era by an author living in that society, the new Lord Featherington was created out of whole cloth by modern screenwriters who have no qualms about bending historical realism in favour of what will work well as a dramatic plotline.

[Conotocarious]

Anthony had flashbacks showing how he was expected to take over after his father’s death. I don’t think the show wanted to then also insert flashbacks of Kate also taking over after her father’s death. That would have been repetitive. Perhaps Kate after her mother’s death, but then flashback to what? Her perfectly loving new stepmother? I think the show tries to be sparing with the flashbacks and Anthony got them this season (Simon got them last season). 

[Roseanna]

16 hours ago, Conotocarious said:

Anthony had flashbacks showing how he was expected to take over after his father’s death. I don’t think the show wanted to then also insert flashbacks of Kate also taking over after her father’s death. That would have been repetitive. Perhaps Kate after her mother’s death, but then flashback to what? Her perfectly loving new stepmother? I think the show tries to be sparing with the flashbacks and Anthony got them this season (Simon got them last season). 

There would be other ways to give Kate a A-plot. 

Because the serie is about Bridgertons, it's perhaps understandable to put the focus on Anthony's development. But also in the first season it was Simon who developed and Daphne helped him to do It. It seems that the writers are interested in men, not in women.

The exceptions are Pen and Marina. The former has so far no relationship, the latter had to find a way to survive.

[Conotocarious]

6 hours ago, Roseanna said:

There would be other ways to give Kate a A-plot. 

Because the serie is about Bridgertons, it's perhaps understandable to put the focus on Anthony's development. But also in the first season it was Simon who developed and Daphne helped him to do It. It seems that the writers are interested in men, not in women.

The exceptions are Pen and Marina. The former has so far no relationship, the latter had to find a way to survive.

I noticed the same thing. I guess with the first season there really was nothing to Daphne except she wanted to have kids. She was really like a self-insert for the audience. 

Even in season one Anthony had more personality quirks than Daphne, even if they made him look like a jerk.

[Blakeston]

I don't see Colin as a jerk for what he said about Penelope to his friends.

He was asked if he was courting her, and he said, "Are you mad? I would never dream of courting Penelope Featherington. Not in your wildest fantasies."

He sees Penelope as a sister, so of course he thinks it's ridiculous that people are speculating about him pursuing her, and of course he wants to quash that kind of talk.

He didn't say, "Penelope is so far beneath me that I would never consider her," or "I would never court someone so unattractive."

Obviously it was an upsetting thing for her to hear. But it's not like he knew that she was eavesdropping, either.

[Starry-Eyed]

34 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

I don't see Colin as a jerk for what he said about Penelope to his friends.

He was asked if he was courting her, and he said, "Are you mad? I would never dream of courting Penelope Featherington. Not in your wildest fantasies."

He sees Penelope as a sister, so of course he thinks it's ridiculous that people are speculating about him pursuing her, and of course he wants to quash that kind of talk.

He didn't say, "Penelope is so far beneath me that I would never consider her," or "I would never court someone so unattractive."

Obviously it was an upsetting thing for her to hear. But it's not like he knew that she was eavesdropping, either.

Obviously, we as the audience understand Colin meant because he doesn't see her romantically (which of course is what Penelope is primarily hurt by) but his words are VERY poorly judged in general for a time when women lived and died by their reputation, and mostly needed to marry SOMEONE to have a decent life. How many of the men he was talking to heard "Colin sees Penelope as a sister" and not "Colin, scion of the influential Bridgerton family, does not see Penelope Featherington as worthy of marriage"?

Edited April 9, 2022 by Starry-Eyed

[pasdetrois]

On 3/26/2022 at 10:22 AM, SonofaBiscuit said:

Random, but the Queen sends jewelry to show her sympathy? “We are sorry your father died. Here, have this ruby neckace.” Ha ha ha ha.

I meant to write down her exact quote so that I can use it later. It was hilariously deadpan.

The last two episodes were way too talky, presumably to fill up eight episodes. I actually fast-forwarded multiple times, which is unusual for me with a historical story.

Quote

Aside from how unbelievable it is that a sheltered girl who doesn't even know where babies come from is capable of writing bon mots full of sexual innuendo, as well as galavanting around town unsupervised at all hours of the night...

...in fetching outfits that screamed "aristocrat slumming."

How did Lady Danforth manage to dance?

Edited April 10, 2022 by pasdetrois

[bijoux]

I shall send a few necklaces to express my sympathies.

Followed by, 'Now give me dirt.' Paraphrased. Really, I wouldn't be very surprised to have the Queen hunting down Whistledown next season to make sure she doesn't stop publishing.

[Conotocarious]

So I’ve rewatched both seasons and I’m wondering where were the sexual innuendos in what Penelope as LW wrote? I didn’t see anything particularly eyebrow-raising. A reference to being pregnant after having a honeymoon (in season one)is hardly something she wouldn’t  have been aware of. And as Penelope is always reading a book she likely gets a lot of her ideas and phrasing from that source. 

Edited April 10, 2022 by Conotocarious

[Blakeston]

On 4/9/2022 at 12:31 PM, Starry-Eyed said:

Obviously, we as the audience understand Colin meant because he doesn't see her romantically (which of course is what Penelope is primarily hurt by) but his words are VERY poorly judged in general for a time when women lived and died by their reputation, and mostly needed to marry SOMEONE to have a decent life. How many of the men he was talking to heard "Colin sees Penelope as a sister" and not "Colin, scion of the influential Bridgerton family, does not see Penelope Featherington as worthy of marriage"?

Considering the extremely cruel words that Penelope uses on a regular basis as Lady Whistledown, I have zero sympathy for her if someone in the ton hears Colin say "I wouldn't dream of courting Penelope," and assumes that there must be something wrong with her.

The characters on this show are constantly casting aspersions on people. Colin's comment is probably a two on a one-to-ten rudeness scale for the world he's in.

Edited April 11, 2022 by Blakeston