S01.E02: Money Isn't Everything

[Empress Josephine]

On 1/31/2022 at 8:16 PM, AntFTW said:

Agreed. I can't help but ask myself "did people actually do this?" and think this is the stupidest thing.

Of course. Anything to feel superior and gate keep valued resources (that's what classism is about after all, protecting the intra-groups access to valued resources which improve the quality of ones life). People still behave like this and do things like this.

 

I think with the Russells it gets to the point where you wonder why it is even worth it to beg/scheme for acceptance? Why are these the sorts of people who should matter? They have enough money to make new rules on there terms and probably could if they stuck with their new monied friends. But Mrs. Russell became the snob, ditching those friends and acting like they do not matter. All this behaviour does is inflate the heads of the old monied people and make them feel they are justified in there supposed superiority when you have people falling all over themselves desperate for crumbs/to be apart of the club. 

Edited February 2, 2022 by Empress Josephine

[Brn2bwild]

13 hours ago, dmc said:

I don't either, the kids are very nice people. I feel these people are supposed to be the underdogs though and we are supposed to be why won't the old money crowd be nice to them.

The kids were likely mostly raised by very kind nannies.

[Hiyo]

Quote

Why are these the sorts of people who should matter? They have enough money to make new rules on there terms and probably could if they stuck with their new monied friends.

That is sort of what happened in real life. Eventually, the old money ends up accepting the new money, however very reluctantly and begrudgingly. And as time goes on, the new money eventually gets classified as old money, no?

As for why, well, who knows. New money has always wanted to get into old money social circles.

[Roseanna]

13 hours ago, MissLucas said:

I give some side-eye to Mr If-I-want-something-I-take-it, he starts to remind me of DA's Henry Talbot, Lady Mary's stalker husband. 

Yes, he *said* so, but maybe he meant that he is ambitious. At least so far, he hasn't behaved in such a way towards Marian, on the contrary, he has been only helpful towards he.

 

 

[Roseanna]

18 hours ago, AntFTW said:

Agnes is haunted by her experience with financial hardship and a loveless soul-sucking marriage. All of Agnes’s views are through that prism. All of her rules are created to decrease the likelihood that her son, and now Marian, would end up penniless and also remain in this upper crust social circle. That’s how she survived. From Agnes’s point of view, she’s teaching Marian how to survive.

Good insight!

But I think that Agnes forgets that if a rich husband can *lose* money (speculation, gambling). So maybe a middle-class man would be a safer choice? Of course he should have a life insurance.

[Haleth]

13 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

This. Is Oscar supposed to be quite a bit older than Gladys and her brother or are we supposed to think they're similar ages?

It doesn't matter.  Bertha will sell Gladys to anyone from the Old NY set who comes courting.  And Gladys will end up miserable and lonely in a loveless marriage.  Of course Agnes will never allow this to happen anyway.

It's too bad Agnes doesn't see how Marian and the lawyer are a good match, if he can get established in NYC.  

I thought Bertha was pretty snarky to Mrs Morris at dinner.  George had to keep stepping in and changing the subject.

[AntFTW]

On 2/1/2022 at 3:14 AM, Cheezwiz said:

Still curious as to the scandal trailing the mysterious Mrs. Chamberlain.

My guess is that she divorced a previous husband 

[AntFTW]

13 minutes ago, Haleth said:

I thought Bertha was pretty snarky to Mrs Morris at dinner.  George had to keep stepping in and changing the subject.

Mrs. Morris started with the snarky comments as soon as she walked in the Russells’ door before Bertha even opened her mouth to say anything, and even before they walked in the door.

It was Mr. Morris, rather than George, stepping in and subtly trying to get his wife to “retract her claws.”

[MissLucas]

38 minutes ago, Haleth said:

It doesn't matter.  Bertha will sell Gladys to anyone from the Old NY set who comes courting.  And Gladys will end up miserable and lonely in a loveless marriage.  Of course Agnes will never allow this to happen anyway.

Either that or Bertha wants to marry her to a member of the British aristocracy (hard to imagine Fellowes can resist). And even though she has not earned mother-of-the-year she still has a long way to go to reach the ruthlessness of Alva Vanderbilt who forced her only daughter Consuelo into a loveless marriage with the Duke of Marlborough. Consuelo's upbringing was a nightmare of physical and emotional abuse.

Edited February 2, 2022 by MissLucas

[kristen111]

19 hours ago, JasonCC said:

I'm really curious what Mrs. Chamberlain's sin is/was.

I’m sure Marian will visit for tea and find out all the dirt.  Whether her aunts like it or not.

[kristen111]

On 1/31/2022 at 10:21 PM, Enigma X said:

I really like the show a lot but found many of the actors (ones who have been great in other things and not just Meryl's daughter) a bit off. I felt that way last week too. But, despite that, I am entertained.

I felt that way about Downton Abby too, but once it got rolling, WOW.  I didn’t care for Marian, until I found out who she was, so now I understand.  Although very spunky, she was a little weak in the acting.

[peachmangosteen]

2 hours ago, Haleth said:

It doesn't matter. 

It does to me as I wanna know if they're trying to sell that obviously 40 year old actor as a 20 something lol.

[Enigma X]

44 minutes ago, kristen111 said:

I felt that way about Downton Abby too, but once it got rolling, WOW.  I didn’t care for Marian, until I found out who she was, so now I understand.  Although very spunky, she was a little weak in the acting.

I was going to say the same as far as the acting being off in Downton Abbey as well (to me) from actors who have been great in other things but was not sure if others saw it too.

[Enigma X]

Though I do not like the Russells (the parents), I understand where they are coming from. If given the opportunity, they will be just as snooty as the old guard. Still, they are relegated to being not good enough based on their lineage and not on anything else.

[Carolina Girl]

6 hours ago, Hiyo said:

And as time goes on, the new money eventually gets classified as old money, no?

Indeed.  Rockefeller, Carnegie, Mellon, Morgan and Vanderbilt were all at one time "new" money.  Now THEY occupy listings in the Social Register.  

Also important to remember, though I don't think that it has been touched on yet, is that all of these industrialists were looked down upon as "robber barons" who engaged in unethical and ruthless practices.  Touched upon in the first episode where "old money" railroad guy is shocked that "new money" railroad guy stopped negotiating when his second offer was refused and opted instead to bankrupt him.  Reminds me of the famous Cornelius Vanderbilt quote when he learned that two steamboat magnates attempted to cheat him:  "I won't sue you, for the law is too slow. I'll ruin you."

1 hour ago, MissLucas said:

Either that or Bertha wants to marry her to a member of the British aristocracy (hard to imagine Fellowes can resist). And even though she has not earned mother-of-the-year she still has a long way to go to reach the ruthlessness of Alva Vanderbilt who forced her only daughter Consuelo into a loveless marriage with the Duke of Marlborough. Consuelo's upbringing was a nightmare of physical and emotional abuse.

Well, everything I've read says Bertha and George are based on Alva and Willie K. Vanderbilt, so hang on to your hats!!  

[Hanahope]

7 hours ago, Hiyo said:

That is sort of what happened in real life. Eventually, the old money ends up accepting the new money, however very reluctantly and begrudgingly. And as time goes on, the new money eventually gets classified as old money, no?

As for why, well, who knows. New money has always wanted to get into old money social circles.

because eventually, money is money.

[izabella]

3 hours ago, Haleth said:

It's too bad Agnes doesn't see how Marian and the lawyer are a good match, if he can get established in NYC.  

I don't think Marion sees the lawyer as a good match.  She was very quick to tell him not to contact her when she left town, and only gave him her address when he said there might be a legal reason for him to contact her.  She was ready to put him behind her without a second thought.  Now he is in town, and interviewing for a job, but I don't see Marion swooning over him. 

I don't know.  It could be the actress.  Marion is very bland, and doesn't seem to have much emotion or spark.  I mean, her dad just died, and she's not ever sad, or at least never mentions anything about him or their relationship,  like she misses how he could always cheer her up, or the times they went skating on the pond, or whatever.  She also never mentions a mother, like she didn't have one at all.  We really know absolutely nothing about her before her father died, not one thing.  Did she have any friends?  Does she miss them?  Did she have hobbies?  Does she like music?  Is she passionate about anything, much less a man?

I wish the actress showed more personality.  In the thread for the previous episode, someone suggested imaging Lily James as Marian, which, jeez, would have been a night and day difference!   I think she'd have given Marian some vitality.  Or maybe Marian is supposed to be a dull miss with little personality except to be contrary to her Aunt Agnes.

Edited February 2, 2022 by izabella

[JenE4]

2 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

It does to me as I wanna know if they're trying to sell that obviously 40 year old actor as a 20 something lol.

Lol. I think he’s supposed to be older, just like Agnes is much older than Bertha, it makes sense that their children are also from different generations. But, regardless, I didn’t get the impression that Oscar is trying to court Gladys. Granted, I’m not so great with names/faces but isn’t Oscar in a relationship with John Adams IV?! Or are you implying that in order to secretly carry on his relationship with John, he can lock down Gladys as a beard because she’s young and naive, and her family is desperate enough to go along with anything in order to be accepted into society? A marriage to an Old Monied family (despite them not actually having that much money, maybe?) is mutually beneficial to all involved…except for Gladys if she ever cares about having a loving/sexual relationship—but Oscar gets the wealth and ability to hide his sexuality, Bertha/George get their family accepted into society.

Edited February 2, 2022 by JenE4

[iMonrey]

Quote

I'm really curious what Mrs. Chamberlain's sin is/was.

I find it hard to believe that Marian couldn't have found someone, by now, to illuminate the Chamberlain scandal for her. Why not ask Ada or Oscar when Agnes isn't around? Hell, the servants probably even know. 

Quote

I wish the actress showed more personality.  In the thread for the previous episode, someone suggested imaging Lily James as Marian, which, jeez, would have been a night and day difference! 

I'd have to see Louisa Jacobson in something else to know the extent of her acting abilities, or lack thereof. Her stilted line delivery here does sort of work for her character. I can imagine a prim and proper young lady of breeding talking this way in that era. I do agree with your larger point we know basically nothing about her though. She's really a cypher.

Quote

But, regardless, I didn’t get the impression that Oscar is trying to court Gladys. Granted, I’m not so great with names/faces but isn’t Oscar in a relationship with John Adams IV?! Or are you implying that in order to secretly carry on his relationship with John, he can lock down Gladys as a beard because she’s young and naive, and her family is desperate enough to go along with anything in order to be accepted into society—and a marriage to an Old Monied family (despite them not actually having that much money, maybe?) is mutually beneficial to all involved…except for Gladys.

Bingo. Oscar wants to marry money, and her father is the richest man in town. For her part, I think Gladys is actually quite taken with the notion too. She seemed rather giddy and jumped to his defense when he introduced himself to her parents at the bazaar. She also complimented him to Marian when they met in Central Park. I think quite possibly this is how it will play out, long-term - a marriage that she quickly grows disenchanted with once she realizes what she's actually gotten herself into.

[izabella]

1 minute ago, JenE4 said:

Granted, I’m not so great with names/faces but isn’t Oscar in a relationship with John Adams IV?! Or are you implying that in order to secretly carry on his relationship with John, he can lock down Gladys as a beard because she’s young and naive, and her family is desperate enough to go along with anything in order to be accepted into society—and a marriage to an Old Monied family (despite them not actually having that much money, maybe?) is mutually beneficial to all involved…except for Gladys.

I think this is exactly what is going on.  Oscar sees her as a potential beard.  Since many people back then married for reasons other than love and often with big age differences, he wouldn't have been wrong for thinking he could marry someone half his age if it were advantageous for whatever reason. 

But yeah, that's a shitty future for Gladys.  With her being so young and naive, he could count on Gladys having no idea of his real proclivities until it's too late, and her parents might be desperate enough to break into society that they would overlook anything.

[SailorGirl]

4 minutes ago, izabella said:

I think this is exactly what is going on.  Oscar sees her as a potential beard.  Since many people back then married for reasons other than love and often with big age differences, he wouldn't have been wrong for thinking he could marry someone half his age if it were advantageous for whatever reason. 

But yeah, that's a shitty future for Gladys.  With her being so young and naive, he could count on Gladys having no idea of his real proclivities until it's too late, and her parents might be desperate enough to break into society that they would overlook anything.

And he would likely "do his duty" and sleep with her at least once or twice to ensure an heir, but then pay her no physical attention otherwise. She would be left to lament the lack of a physical relationship, with everyone around her telling her it must be her, that she must find ways to make herself more attractive/appealing to him, etc., thus all-but-guaranteeing a life of low self esteem and no sense of self worth for Gladys and further solidifying the foundation of the white male patriarchy we all know and love so much (WHEN is someone going to come up with a sarcasm font???) :-D 

[Roseanna]

23 minutes ago, SailorGirl said:

And he would likely "do his duty" and sleep with her at least once or twice to ensure an heir, but then pay her no physical attention otherwise. She would be left to lament the lack of a physical relationship, with everyone around her telling her it must be her, that she must find ways to make herself more attractive/appealing to him, etc., thus all-but-guaranteeing a life of low self esteem and no sense of self worth for Gladys and further solidifying the foundation of the white male patriarchy we all know and love so much (WHEN is someone going to come up with a sarcasm font???) :-D 

Well, some women didn't like sex or (like Agnes) didn't like sex with their husband and they were glad when their husband left the alone. 

Gladys can take a lover or even elope. 

[Haleth]

40 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Bingo. Oscar wants to marry money, and her father is the richest man in town. For her part, I think Gladys is actually quite taken with the notion too. She seemed rather giddy and jumped to his defense when he introduced himself to her parents at the bazaar. She also complimented him to Marian when they met in Central Park. I think quite possibly this is how it will play out, long-term - a marriage that she quickly grows disenchanted with once she realizes what she’s actually gotten herself into. her mother has gotten her into.

Fixed that. 

[dmc]

9 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

The kids were likely mostly raised by very kind nannies.

I think its very telling that the son the only one allowed to come and go at his leisure is being invited out by the old money people.  The daughter isn't allowed to go anywhere.

Then his mother calls the same family and is like...you know my son...and leaves her card...I really feel like her and husband have terrible manners...I don't think people would do this in 2022

Edited February 2, 2022 by dmc

[sistermagpie]

On 2/1/2022 at 10:20 AM, AntFTW said:

 I think the men were more accepting because the men were successful in their circles. They were off wielding political influence, building empires and conquering their parts of the economic landscape. Mr. Russell has a crop of employees that answer to him and look to him for professional guidance and people that want to be his "friend" everyday while people shun Mrs. Russell.

Seems like any man would consider it beneath himself (and too feminine) to care too much about this social stuff. By design the woman's world is more frivolous. It's one thing to come in and throw money around to avenge an insult to your wife, because that's an insult to your honor as well. But you're not going to be seen as caring about stuff the women are supposed to care about, especially when you're creating industry.

On 2/1/2022 at 12:22 PM, JasonCC said:

I loved Downton Abbey but it DID become a bit of a parody of itself (and I kept watching) so I can't throw stones here. I think American audiences sometimes overlook cheesy dialogue and cliche plot points if they have British accents, but in a way (hat tip to Edith Wharton) watching the American class system is MORE interesting because there are no titles and it's all so cut-throat and dollar focused.

I remember there was a talk show with Mary and Tom where they read some Downton scripts in American accents to prove how much of it depends on having a British accent. 

On 2/1/2022 at 12:29 PM, izabella said:

That scene didn't really move me.  It didn't feel like a triumphant comeuppance, although that's how it was intended and that's how the Russells thought of it, and how everyone thought of it.  So, he paid a ton of money to shut down their little charity bazaar.  And? 

Yeah, as a bit of revenge I didn't really feel it. It made him look like a rich badass willing to step in for his wife, which has its advantages, but I guess to me it didn't see so clear that it would be remembered as a story people told forever as thrilling instead of a story about the charity bazaar that was ruined because Mrs. Russell's a vengeful brat and her husband's a bully.

23 hours ago, izabella said:

The Russells are really obnoxious, vengeful and cruel for slights they bring upon themselves.  I honestly don't know how they raised such seemingly nice children.

The Russell kids seem like that familiar trope where the kids know their parents are horrible and are slightly amused by it. Like if the first generation are so ambitious the second just thinks they're weird.  It is surprising, for instance, that Gladys is just blandly nice rather than either trained to enjoy vengeance just like her parents do or else in constant conflict with her mom about her ridiculous clothing.

[AntFTW]

42 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Well, some women didn't like sex or (like Agnes) didn't like sex with their husband and they were glad when their husband left the alone. 

Gladys can take a lover or even elope. 

They actually mentioned in the podcast (I think it was the podcast) that many of the couples were not very affectionate and that the most affectionate couple we've seen so far are the Russells. I will say that we have not seen that many married couples in the series so far but the Morrises don't seem like a very loving couple.

[Sarah 103]

Oscar can't be too much older than Larry because they were at the same party in Newport, and that seemed like a young crowd. Why are people assuming that Oscar is 40, and not 30? 

1 hour ago, izabella said:

I think this is exactly what is going on.  Oscar sees her as a potential beard.  Since many people back then married for reasons other than love and often with big age differences, he wouldn't have been wrong for thinking he could marry someone half his age if it were advantageous for whatever reason. 

But yeah, that's a shitty future for Gladys.  With her being so young and naive, he could count on Gladys having no idea of his real proclivities until it's too late, and her parents might be desperate enough to break into society that they would overlook anything.

I agree. Although they would be plenty of people in that era to tell Gladys there are far worse things than a husband ignoring her (which is equally awful in a totally different way). 

38 minutes ago, dmc said:

I think its very telling that the son the only one allowed to come and go at his leisure is being invited out by the old money people.  The daughter isn't allowed to go anywhere.

Larry is older and he is of age. Larry went to Harvard when he mixed with old money. I'm guessing the invitations he is getting are coming through classmates/friends, not through thier parents. I am sure many of the mothers are horrified that thier sons are inviting new money people to parties. 

Gladys is still not yet of age/out in society, which is why she isn't allowed to do much.  

[AntFTW]

8 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Seems like any man would consider it beneath himself (and too feminine) to care too much about this social stuff. By design the woman's world is more frivolous. It's one thing to come in and throw money around to avenge an insult to your wife, because that's an insult to your honor as well. But you're not going to be seen as caring about stuff the women are supposed to care about, especially when you're creating industry.

Agreed. You sum it up perfectly.

[AntFTW]

13 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

Oscar can't be too much older than Larry because they were at the same party in Newport, and that seemed like a young crowd. Why are people assuming that Oscar is 40, and not 30? 

Well, the people they focused on (Larry and Carrie Astor along with Oscar) were the younger crowd. Some of the people in the background were quite older. I know I spotted an older gentleman with gray hair.

Edited February 2, 2022 by AntFTW

[dmc]

12 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

Oscar can't be too much older than Larry because they were at the same party in Newport, and that seemed like a young crowd. Why are people assuming that Oscar is 40, and not 30? 

I agree. Although they would be plenty of people in that era to tell Gladys there are far worse things than a husband ignoring her (which is equally awful in a totally different way). 

Larry is older and he is of age. Larry went to Harvard when he mixed with old money. I'm guessing the invitations he is getting are coming through classmates/friends, not through thier parents. I am sure many of the mothers are horrified that thier sons are inviting new money people to parties. 

Gladys is still not yet of age/out in society, which is why she isn't allowed to do much.  

Yes I realized that Gladys hasn't come out yet, the mom keeps mentioning that she wants a be able to fill the room to present her.  I think old money versus new money is still in thing at Larry's age.  But he's pleasant to be around, so he probably still gets invitations.  

[blackwing]

After the first episode, I was confused as to who we were supposed to root for.  But this episode seemed to make it clear that we are supposed to be cheering for the Russells.  Oh poor Mrs. Russell, she was snubbed and they didn't want her ballroom.  She read about it in the paper and angrily threw her breakfast tray onto the floor.  She shows up to the bazaar acting like a wronged woman seeking vengeance.  Then her husband basically uses his money to spite the ladies.

I mean really, who the hell does this woman think she is?  Yes, her husband has money.  She thinks that money means she should be accepted.  I still have the same question that I did in the first episode.  Her husband obviously has had money for quite some time.  Why all of a sudden now is this woman determined to break into the old money circle?  Just because now she has a huge house with decorations culled from the great houses of Europe?  If she was interested in getting noticed before, why couldn't she have done it before when she was living elsewhere?  She could have asked to work on the charity board or done something.  Not just all of a sudden "heeeeeyyyy I'm the rich lady in the new big house, come pay homage to me".

If I were these old money women I would be completely turned off at this stunt of George Russell's.    These are all rich women.  They could have easily made donations themselves to the poor.  But the whole point was that this was an event, where people wanted to be seen, and money is spent in the name of charity.  After Russell bought everything, I wish Mrs. Fane or Mrs. Morris would have said, "well now, we have this room rented for three days, no sense in it going to waste.  Let's have a party for the next three days."

But instead, the show portrays this moment as a big triumph for the Russells.  If there was any doubt about who we are supposed to root for, it is completely erased now.  In the discussion that aired after the closing credits, it's obvious that Julian Fellowes is writing this show from the Russells' perspective.  He gushed about how this was such an amazing and great move by them.

Unfortunately, I absolutely despise the Russells, so this makes me not want to watch the show.  Question, is this show billed as a limited series, or is it possible to be ongoing?  If it's a limited series (like Belgravia) then I can tolerate some of the nasty characters.  But if it's an ongoing series then I'm not sure if I want to get too invested because I don't know if I can keep going if I find the central protagonists so unlikeable.

 

On 2/1/2022 at 8:22 AM, dmc said:

Are we supposed to root for the new money people?  I sort of hate them already.  New money wife is kind of the worst.  The husband is slightly better but maybe these people don’t have any friends because they suck.  

Every function the wife goes to she acts she acts like a jerk. The husband has the ruthless down but no charm whatsoever.  Their kids are nice. If you want people to accept you for other reasons than breeding probably cultivate some 
 

Yep, this is exactly how I feel.  She is a complete ass.  She deserves every bit of the way she is getting treated.  She is not a kind person at all.  She is petty and vindictive and haughty and entitled.

3 hours ago, JenE4 said:

Lol. I think he’s supposed to be older, just like Agnes is much older than Bertha, it makes sense that their children are also from different generations. But, regardless, I didn’t get the impression that Oscar is trying to court Gladys. Granted, I’m not so great with names/faces but isn’t Oscar in a relationship with John Adams IV?! Or are you implying that in order to secretly carry on his relationship with John, he can lock down Gladys as a beard because she’s young and naive, and her family is desperate enough to go along with anything in order to be accepted into society? A marriage to an Old Monied family (despite them not actually having that much money, maybe?) is mutually beneficial to all involved…except for Gladys if she ever cares about having a loving/sexual relationship—but Oscar gets the wealth and ability to hide his sexuality, Bertha/George get their family accepted into society.

 

Oscar is already working, and I would think he has to be at least 30, right?  Larry is apparently 22 since he just graduated from Harvard, but I'd say the actor looks too old, he's easily late 20s.  Gladys isn't "out" yet so I think she is supposed to be 18.  A guy in his 30s trying to court an 18 year old?  Seems ridiculous.

How is it possible that Agnes does not know her son is gay?  He is fairly effeminate, in his 30s, not married.  Is he pretending to be interested in Gladys to keep up his cover?  I feel sorry for her.  She will be used as a pawn by her mother.

On 1/31/2022 at 9:33 PM, Melina22 said:

Although I find Cynthia Nixon's character to be one of the most likeable in the cast, I find the way they have her relating to her sister to be incredibly unrealistic. Agnes is pretty much one-note, endlessly critical, stern and biting, always bossing Ada around, while Ada looks on at all times smiling and serene, acting almost oblivious. Yet it's not a case where Ada looks on Agnes's bitterness fondly, like she's a cranky child. Agnes has real power, and everyone walks on eggshells around her, except for Ada who just smiles and occasionally contradicts Agnes without looking nervous.

There is literally no way this dynamic would exist in the real world. At the very least, Ada would feel hidden resentment at Agnes, or struggle to conceal her true feelings of disappointment and disagreement with the woman who had all the money. I find the characterization of Ada to be shallow, like she's too simple to do anything but smile and say kind things. (Like Beth in Little Women.) 

It seems like both Agnes and Ada view Agnes having sacrificed herself for the good of the family and entered into the marriage with Mr. Van Rhijn.  I think the father or brother gambled away all the money, so Agnes was forced into a marriage for money to save the family fortunes?

Ada said something to Agnes about how "you had to get married" and Agnes said something which implied that Ada was lucky that she got to keep her spinster status.  I think Agnes is the one who resents Ada, and not the other way around.  She thinks Ada has had such an easy life, just depending on her family to keep her fed.  

I don't know if that was just the circumstances.  Wouldn't Ada have wanted to get married?  Wouldn't her father have tried to make her a match just as how he made a match for Agnes with Van Rhijn?  Or were neither of them good catches because they didn't have money, and he felt lucky enough just to marry off Agnes?

Edited February 2, 2022 by blackwing

[Hiyo]

Quote

A guy in his 30s trying to court an 18 year old?  Seems ridiculous.

Age differences like that back then weren't so ridiculous.

[AntFTW]

1 hour ago, blackwing said:

Yep, this is exactly how I feel.  She is a complete ass.  She deserves every bit of the way she is getting treated.  She is not a kind person at all.  She is petty and vindictive and haughty and entitled.

Bertha is not likeable. Bertha deserves the treatment she’s getting but not from the people giving it to her.

This is a show where 99% of the characters are assholes in their own various ways. Bertha is not a good person. The old money people giving her the cold shoulder are also not good people. Sure, Bertha has given some unwarranted treatment toward her old friends. The old money crowd has given unwarranted treatment toward Bertha.

We can agree that Bertha has been an a-hole filled with a-hole qualities. However, Bertha has not been an a-hole to this particular group of old money snobs so therefore, this particular group of old money snobs shouldn’t be an a-hole to Bertha.

Edited February 2, 2022 by AntFTW

[izabella]

58 minutes ago, blackwing said:

I mean really, who the hell does this woman think she is?  Yes, her husband has money.  She thinks that money means she should be accepted.  I still have the same question that I did in the first episode.  Her husband obviously has had money for quite some time.  Why all of a sudden now is this woman determined to break into the old money circle?  Just because now she has a huge house with decorations culled from the great houses of Europe?  If she was interested in getting noticed before, why couldn't she have done it before when she was living elsewhere?  She could have asked to work on the charity board or done something.  Not just all of a sudden "heeeeeyyyy I'm the rich lady in the new big house, come pay homage to me".

If I were these old money women I would be completely turned off at this stunt of George Russell's.    These are all rich women.  They could have easily made donations themselves to the poor.  But the whole point was that this was an event, where people wanted to be seen, and money is spent in the name of charity.  After Russell bought everything, I wish Mrs. Fane or Mrs. Morris would have said, "well now, we have this room rented for three days, no sense in it going to waste.  Let's have a party for the next three days."

But instead, the show portrays this moment as a big triumph for the Russells.  If there was any doubt about who we are supposed to root for, it is completely erased now.  In the discussion that aired after the closing credits, it's obvious that Julian Fellowes is writing this show from the Russells' perspective.  He gushed about how this was such an amazing and great move by them.

Unfortunately, I absolutely despise the Russells, so this makes me not want to watch the show.  

ALL of this, yes.  I have no idea why she thinks anyone owes her anything, much less friendship, when she goes everywhere and speaks to everyone with an enormous chip on her shoulder, and is constantly bringing up her money and expensive things.  Why does she think wealth is an automatic entree into anything but a bank?  The Russells obviously had money before moving to this place, so Bertha just dropping those friends shows money doesn't guarantee friendships.  Were they even friends, or just people who tried to one-up each other with how much their money could buy?

And, she dropped her own sister.  Who drops contact with a sister just because they moved a few blocks away?  She is horrid, and would be so to anyone who even tried to be her "friend."

Edited February 2, 2022 by izabella

[JenE4]

Re the question of why Bertha is suddenly trying to break into Society now and not before when she’s obviously had money for a while: Agnes made a point of saying that at the Society level “the villages” of NY don’t interact with each other, so apparently Bertha needed to wait until she was in the right address to try to get in with this group. Oscar or Marion (I forget which) asked then why are we snubbing the Russells because they’re right across the street and part of their village. Then Agnes doubled down that it’s more than just the address but the pedigree. Plus…the show is starting now, so of course they’re starting the action of Bertha trying to break into Society now—and not halfway through her endeavor, lol. Same reason why Marion’s father died now and now 2 years ago, lol.

[Carolina Girl]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

I guess to me it didn't see so clear that it would be remembered as a story people told forever as thrilling instead of a story about the charity bazaar that was ruined because Mrs. Russell's a vengeful brat and her husband's a bully.

And because he did this, it may very well be that in order to avoid it in the future, Mrs. Russell will not be included in future charitable endeavors.   

 

6 minutes ago, izabella said:

ALL of this, yes.  I have no idea why she thinks anyone owes her anything, much less friendship, when she goes everywhere and speaks to everyone with an enormous chip on her shoulder, and is constantly bringing up her money and expensive things.  Why does she think wealth is an automatic entree into anything but a bank?  The Russells obviously had money before moving to this place, so Bertha just dropping those friends shows money doesn't guarantee friendships.  Were they even friends, or just people who tried to one-up each other with how much their money could buy?

And, she dropped her own sister.  Who drops contact with a sister just because they moved a few blocks away?  She is horrid, and would be so to anyone who even tried to be her "friend."

Also, I would point out that his obvious belligerence toward two WOMEN for not taking his wife up on her offer (which they were under NO obligation to do) is not going to win him any points because "form" was everything at that time.  I really wish the women had said "we would have LOVED to take your wife up on her offer Mr. Russell; unfortunately, 90% of the people you see here, and especially Mrs. Astor, would not have attended."  

I wonder what Russell would have done if, for instance, several of the people with stalls said "no, I'm sorry, I have no intention of taking your money under those conditions."  I do give them full marks that they considered the amount of money they were raising to be more important than a 3-day society event.  But also I imagine Mesdames Fane and Morris will have something to say to each one of them at a later date.  

Frankly, I would LOVE to see Mrs. Russell's reaction if Sylvia Chamberlain showed up at her door and presented her card.  

And frankly if Marion doesn't like "Old" New York, she can go get a governess job somewhere and screw off.  You aren't BOUND to your aunts like an indentured servant.  You don't like "their" society?  Go off and join one you do.  

[AntFTW]

13 minutes ago, Carolina Girl said:

I do give them full marks that they considered the amount of money they were raising to be more important than a 3-day society event.

So do I 😆

13 minutes ago, Carolina Girl said:

Also, I would point out that his obvious belligerence toward two WOMEN for not taking his wife up on her offer (which they were under NO obligation to do) is not going to win him any points because "form" was everything at that time.  I really wish the women had said "we would have LOVED to take your wife up on her offer Mr. Russell; unfortunately, 90% of the people you see here, and especially Mrs. Astor, would not have attended."  

The appetite to move the story line along proved to be too great. In future episodes, this stunt may put George at odds with Mr. Morris considering George is needing a favor from Mr. Morris at the moment.

Edited February 2, 2022 by AntFTW

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, blackwing said:

A  guy in his 30s trying to court an 18 year old?  Seems ridiculous.

Not at all. In that age there could be a big age difference between spouses, especially if a man had first to earn or inherit enough to support a family.

Has Oscar an independent income or is he now dependent on her mom and must wait for her death for get money? That is, unless he marries a heiress.  

[Shermie]

The whole old money vs new money snobbery would be funny if it wasn’t so toxic and gross. 

Quote

The men were building the industry and the economy, while the women were building the society.  It was the women's "job" to keep the new money, no family connection outsiders out of society.  The men seemed like they were more accepting.

Yes, this. Men had actual jobs and businesses and had to interact and make deals with each other to keep the financial end of society moving along. Maybe if the women had jobs or motherhood or something to occupy them other than their status, they wouldn’t be so all-consumingly bitchy to each other about it. I mean, when it’s literally the only thing you have, your only achievement, I guess you’re going to go all in with it.

These women are just Mean Girls of Yore, sniping and backstabbing and jockeying for position with the Queen Bee, whose own position is always precarious too.

I wish Bertha had just thrown fabulous parties in her big new mansion filled with all her old friends. She’d invite all the old money folks too, of course, and few would accept, of course, but there’d always be a C-lister or two that would go. Eventually this group would hold their own charity events, the society pages would cover it, and more people would want to be part of the new in-crowd. There would be a few snobby holdouts, but in the end, Bertha becomes an important society influencer. That’s what I wish she had done.

Just a random observation - Marian wears blue about 90% of the time. Ada always wears autumn tones. I know Bridgerton had a whole “what colour they’re wearing means something” thing going on. Or maybe it’s because that’s what they look best in.

[Roseanna]

11 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

Larry is older and he is of age. Larry went to Harvard when he mixed with old money. I'm guessing the invitations he is getting are coming through classmates/friends, not through thier parents. I am sure many of the mothers are horrified that thier sons are inviting new money people to parties. 

Gladys is still not yet of age/out in society, which is why she isn't allowed to do much.  

Gladys will not be allowed as much as Larry even when she will be "out". Because she is a girl, her reputation should be intact if she can get a good match. Instead, Larry can have affairs with actresses, visit brothels etc. 

Edited February 3, 2022 by Roseanna
added "not"

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, blackwing said:

Wouldn't her father have tried to make her a match just as how he made a match for Agnes with Van Rhijn?  Or were neither of them good catches because they didn't have money, and he felt lucky enough just to marry off Agnes?

Where was told that their father arranged the match for Agnes? I understood that after the their father' death their brother sold their house, wasted all money and left his sisters homeless and penniless, and that's why Agnes on her own accepted that horrible man. 

We don't know how old the sisters were when their father died - if they were, say, 20 and 18 years old, he would have thought that they had time enough. Or maybe Agnes had had suitors but she had rejected them believing that there would come a better one - not realizing that her possibility to pick and chose could change.   

[AntFTW]

7 hours ago, blackwing said:

I don't know if that was just the circumstances.  Wouldn't Ada have wanted to get married?  Wouldn't her father have tried to make her a match just as how he made a match for Agnes with Van Rhijn?  Or were neither of them good catches because they didn't have money, and he felt lucky enough just to marry off Agnes?

Did they say their father made the match between Agnes and her husband? If so, I must have missed that.

My understanding is that Agnes got married because her brother squandered the family's assets. From the way Ada and Agnes talk about their brother, it seems as though their father wasn't there. Maybe thier father had died. It seems like it was only Agnes, Ada, and their brother. I get the sense that General Brook was head of the Brook family and was expected to care for his sisters with the family fortune. It seems like Mr. Van Rhijn had attempted to woo Agnes and had already proposed. Once that fortune was squandered, Agnes accepted that marriage proposal.

Edited February 3, 2022 by AntFTW

[meatball77]

2 hours ago, dmc said:

Yes I realized that Gladys hasn't come out yet, the mom keeps mentioning that she wants a be able to fill the room to present her.  I think old money versus new money is still in thing at Larry's age.  But he's pleasant to be around, so he probably still gets invitations.  

Larry is a man and the rules are always different there.  It's important for a host to have an equal amount of women and men to balance the table/party.  The girls would be going to all of the events that they could once they were out until they were resigned spinsters.  The men would go once they were deemed mature enough but the events weren't as fun to go to as the ones where you could hang out with your mistress (and if they weren't looking to be married they didn't want to be there) so it was harder to get enough men (often to the point where they would invite the local clergy just to get the numbers right).  So a young man could be invited when his mother and sister wouldn't be. 

The Old Vs New money was complicated in the UK (as we saw in Downton which takes place a generation later) but it was even more complicated in the US because money was so much more ever present and because you could be a nobody and get social status in the US, it just took time and getting in the right circles.

You have the complication of the men needing to work with the upstarts which society thought were tacky and unclassy and business deals were made at these parties.  The old Vs new money has been a thing until the beginning of 21st century.  Think Trump the tacky new money vs the old school Bush family.  The NYC trust fund socialites who are on the board of the Met vs the ones that made their own money and have to work for a living.

2 hours ago, blackwing said:

 

How is it possible that Agnes does not know her son is gay?  He is fairly effeminate, in his 30s, not married.  Is he pretending to be interested in Gladys to keep up his cover?  I feel sorry for her.  She will be used as a pawn by her mother.

 

I don't know if that was just the circumstances.  Wouldn't Ada have wanted to get married?  Wouldn't her father have tried to make her a match just as how he made a match for Agnes with Van Rhijn?  Or were neither of them good catches because they didn't have money, and he felt lucky enough just to marry off Agnes?

Being gay wasn't even something that would be contemplated.  Sodomy was illegal.  A capital offense most places (not sure about NYC at that time).

Ada would have gone through the marriage mart (assuming her family could afford it, it would not be uncommon for a family to focus on the most marriageable of their daughters) but it seems like her sister was willing to protect her from a disastrous marriage and obviously felt like it was better to be single vs married to someone who wasn't of the right class. 


I'm enjoying this show, the whole era is fascinating.  I do worry that the cast is too large.  The urban setting makes a bigger cast a necessity which I suspect will end up putting the focus on the wealthy characters and leaving many with half written stories.  I don't expect we'll get much from the servants. 

 

[dmc]

1 hour ago, izabella said:

ALL of this, yes.  I have no idea why she thinks anyone owes her anything, much less friendship, when she goes everywhere and speaks to everyone with an enormous chip on her shoulder, and is constantly bringing up her money and expensive things.  Why does she think wealth is an automatic entree into anything but a bank?  The Russells obviously had money before moving to this place, so Bertha just dropping those friends shows money doesn't guarantee friendships.  Were they even friends, or just people who tried to one-up each other with how much their money could buy?

And, she dropped her own sister.  Who drops contact with a sister just because they moved a few blocks away?  She is horrid, and would be so to anyone who even tried to be her "friend."

Yes yes yes.  Also her ways of getting recognized by society are terrible. They would be considered rude now. 
 

And the old money people may be terrible but the only two we have gotten to know took in their niece, hired her friend and gave her lodging and flat out state that hate their brother for leaving them high and dry which meant one of them had to be married to a terrible person to support her sister. 

[Hiyo]

Quote

The whole old money vs new money snobbery would be funny if it wasn’t so toxic and gross. 

Yeah but you can't do a story about the rich elite of the Gilded Age in NYC without it being a part of the show.

Heck even these days there is still pushback in some areas between new and old money.

Quote

I wish Bertha had just thrown fabulous parties in her big new mansion filled with all her old friends. She’d invite all the old money folks too, of course, and few would accept, of course, but there’d always be a C-lister or two that would go. Eventually this group would hold their own charity events, the society pages would cover it, and more people would want to be part of the new in-crowd. There would be a few snobby holdouts, but in the end, Bertha becomes an important society influencer. That’s what I wish she had done.

 

Unfortunately, that isn't how things played out back then. The new money (like the Vanderbilts) do make their way into society, though their old friends and C-listers would not have been invited. Basically the old and new merged together to become the elite society, one could say. Case in point, people like the Astors may have done their best to keep people like the Vanderbilts out, but they got in eventually. I have a feeling that is how the season could end (if it's a miniseries and not an ongoing series), with the Rusell's finally making it into New York Society.

[peachmangosteen]

32 minutes ago, meatball77 said:

I do worry that the cast is too large.  

It is. I have no idea who like 70% of them are lol. I mean, it has only been 2 eps but there are just so many people to remember. 

[dmc]

9 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

It is. I have no idea who like 70% of them are lol. I mean, it has only been 2 eps but there are just so many people to remember. 

I know none of their names.

I’m like guy with the weird glasses, who is he? 

[peachmangosteen]

Just now, dmc said:

I know none of their names.

I’m like guy with the weird glasses, who is he? 

Exactly! And I don't even remember someone with glasses!

[dmc]

2 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

Exactly! And I don't even remember someone with glasses!

I only remember because they are the oddest glasses I have ever seen 

[Empress Josephine]

14 hours ago, Hiyo said:

That is sort of what happened in real life. Eventually, the old money ends up accepting the new money, however very reluctantly and begrudgingly. And as time goes on, the new money eventually gets classified as old money, no?

As for why, well, who knows. New money has always wanted to get into old money social circles.

Yeah definitely. I guess that part is more rhetorical as we know why. It is about the status, power, and prestige of the old money families.