S01.E02: Money Isn't Everything

[Jeddah]

3 hours ago, dmc said:

Are we supposed to root for the new money people?  I sort of hate them already.  New money wife is kind of the worst.  The husband is slightly better but maybe these people don’t have any friends because they suck.  
 

Every function the wife goes to she acts she acts like a jerk. The husband has the ruthless down but no charm whatsoever.  Their kids are nice. If you want people to accept you for other reasons than breeding probably cultivate some 

So much this! They just seem like an awful couple that I wouldn’t want to be around either. Bertha ditched her old friends for not having enough standing, so I don’t feel bad when she is shunned for not having enough standing. They didn’t want to use her ballroom, so she has a tantrum and throws a breakfast tray that a maid will have to clean up. She uses her children as pawns. She wanted people to come to her party, and then was rude to the ones who did. Nothing to like about her at all.

[dmc]

14 minutes ago, Jeddah said:

So much this! They just seem like an awful couple that I wouldn’t want to be around either. Bertha ditched her old friends for not having enough standing, so I don’t feel bad when she is shunned for not having enough standing. They didn’t want to use her ballroom, so she has a tantrum and throws a breakfast tray that a maid will have to clean up. She uses her children as pawns. She wanted people to come to her party, and then was rude to the ones who did. Nothing to like about her at all.

They are awful and I feel like they want us to empathize with them but...they aren't even remotely nice.

And her husband get some points for mentioning their old friends visiting and her  sister...and her mother who loved her but died...this woman has legit cut off her old friends and family...every time he brings them up, she's like forget about those people...these are our people...then she goes to the charity and acts like a jerk.  She's not even nice to the people she wants to befriend.

Yeah the old money people are snobby but I sort of can't blame them.  

 

Edited February 1, 2022 by dmc

[izabella]

The Russells are really obnoxious, vengeful and cruel for slights they bring upon themselves.  I honestly don't know how they raised such seemingly nice children.

[dmc]

21 minutes ago, izabella said:

The Russells are really obnoxious, vengeful and cruel for slights they bring upon themselves.  I honestly don't know how they raised such seemingly nice children.

I don't either, the kids are very nice people. I feel these people are supposed to be the underdogs though and we are supposed to be why won't the old money crowd be nice to them. I also don't think that stunt he pulled at the charity will help his wife either.  Like its not a particularly classy maneuver, classy would have been to make an extravagant donation and state we support the cause and wanted to offer a venue as well.   These events are not just about money  but they are social occasions for this set.  So he destroyed their social event.  Also if the guy were nice, more of his business associates would impress on their wives to be nice to them.

 

I can call what's going to happen a mile away.

The wife will continue to chase after these people to no avail.  The husband will give up because he doesn't care as much and end up diverting his attention from his wife because she will lose touch.  

 

Edited February 1, 2022 by dmc

[Snazzy Daisy]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

Also, Blake Ritson feels miscast as Oscar. He's a good actor but he's in his 40s and it's creeping me out to see him stalking young Agnes Russell who looks all of 16. (I know Taissa Farmiga is older than that, but her character still looks very young.)

Taissa Farmiga as Gladys Russell.

Agnes is Oscar’s mom.

[izabella]

14 minutes ago, dmc said:

I can call what's going to happen a mile away.

The wife will continue to chase after these people to no avail.  The husband will give up because he doesn't care as much and end up diverting his attention from his wife because she will lose touch.  

He seems fully supportive of her social climbing, and has a mean streak of his own.  Remember the railroad guy in the first episode who rejected his first two offers because he was negotiating?  And Russell decided to ruin his business because he "doesn't negotiate" and is hellbent on vengeance against anyone who does reject his offers?

I think he will continue to fully support his wife AND will try to financially ruin anybody who slights her.

Edited February 1, 2022 by izabella

[MissLucas]

So far Ada's the most likeable and nuanced character. It would be easy to shove her into the clueless spinster trope but both Nixon and the writing are making sure that's not going to happen.

I give some side-eye to Mr If-I-want-something-I-take-it, he starts to remind me of DA's Henry Talbot, Lady Mary's stalker husband. Fellowes has some odd notions of romance. Marian herself remains a cypher, she grew up in remote countryside Pennsylvania yet she is never intimidated by her surroundings and full of self confidence. Where does that come from? Her mother - who clearly was not up to aunt Agnes' standards?

It was nice that they all tried to help the cook but somehow I doubt that's the end of that story since nobody seemed to have bothered to get to the root of the problem. Speaking of downstairs problems: Mrs Russell's maid has now broken protocol twice in two episodes. Since Mr Russell clearly loves his wife I wonder how much longer he tolerates her behavior.

 

[dmc]

12 minutes ago, izabella said:

He seems fully supportive of her social climbing, and has a mean streak of his own.  Remember the railroad guy in the first episode who rejected his first two offers because he was negotiating?  And Russell decided to ruin his business because he "doesn't negotiate" and is hellbent on vengeance against anyone who does reject his offers?

I think he will continue to fully support his wife AND will try to financially ruin anybody who slights her.

I think he will be for awhile.  She's the person invested in this.  He keeps mentioning their old friends and saying they won't know anyone there.  He asked several times to invite people they know and why should we be begging for the attention of people with less than us?  

Edited February 1, 2022 by dmc

[AntFTW]

3 hours ago, dmc said:

I think he will be for awhile.  She's the person invested in this.  He keeps mentioning their old friends and saying they won't know anyone there.  He asked several times to invite people they know and why should we be begging for the attention of people with less than us?  

I consider the fact that “society” and all of its snobbery is her “work”. She’s made it her “job.” She doesn’t have much to occupy her time other than trying to climb the social ladder. That’s the only goal that she has.

These people don’t even do charity for the sake of charity. Charity is another opportunity to socialize. Everything these women do revolves around the social scene.

The way I see it is that her husband has a business, she doesn’t. He’s at the top of his field, she isn’t. He’s accomplished his goals and making new goals, while she isn’t. I think that Bertha needs to feel like she has a purpose or a role, or otherwise, she would feel useless. The purpose she has decided for herself is to climb the social ladder and improve her family’s social standing. George (and generally, the other men) doesn’t seems to really care because they have bigger fish to fry, while the wives don’t.

Edited February 1, 2022 by AntFTW

[dmc]

12 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

I consider the fact that “society” and all of its snobbery is her “work”. She’s made it her “job.” She doesn’t have much to occupy her time other than trying to climb the social ladder. That’s the only goal that she has.

These people don’t even charity for the sake of charity. Charity is another opportunity to socialize. Everything these women do revolves around the social scene.

The way I see it is that her husband has a business, she doesn’t. He’s at the top of his field, she isn’t. He’s accomplished his goals and making new goals, while she isn’t. I think that Bertha needs to feel like she has a purpose or a role, or otherwise, she would feel useless. The purpose she has decided for herself is to climb the social ladder and improve her family’s social standing. George (and generally, the other men) doesn’t seems to really care because they have bigger fish to fry, while the wives don’t.

I mean she could have her children and old friends.  I feel like he is absolutely satisfied with her, their family and their old friends.  He wants business success but doesn't need the other part.  She needs it and I think its less because she has nothing to do and more because she wants the validation.  

She thinks this will make her feel good enough

Edited February 1, 2022 by dmc

[AntFTW]

1 hour ago, dmc said:

I mean she could have her children and old friends.  I feel like he is absolutely satisfied with her, their family and their old friends.  He wants business success but doesn't need the other part.  She needs it and I think its less because she has nothing to do and more because she wants the validation.  

She thinks this will make her feel good enough

I don’t entirely disagree. I think both things can be true that Bertha needs validation and also desires a goal to occupy her time that once she achieves it will make her feel fulfilled.

George wants business success and doesn’t need the other parts. I agree there. However, I think the business success is the reason he doesn’t need the other parts. I think having that goal of business success and ultimately achieving it makes him feel fulfilled and validated. Bertha doesn’t have that or anything else to make her feel the same way, thus giving rise to her desire to climb the social ladder.

Edited February 1, 2022 by AntFTW

[Carolina Girl]

1 hour ago, izabella said:

The Russells are really obnoxious, vengeful and cruel for slights they bring upon themselves.  I honestly don't know how they raised such seemingly nice children.

I would have thought that Bertha would have attempted to take the opportunity of being alone with Mrs. Morris after dinner to perhaps express some admiration and maybe even flattery for the "old society" - i.e., their good works - which could transition into "if the armory doesn't work out, I hope you'll allow me to offer my ballroom as an alternative."   Even Mrs. Fain told Marion that they should have taken her up on the offer.  But Mrs. Morris decided to be an ass.  

The problem with the Russells is that everything they do seems to take the bull in a china shop approach.  Bertha. they will take your money, they will dine with you, and they will probably even invite you to their various parties if circumstances force.  What they will never do is have genuine affection for you or consider you their friend.  You remember friends, don't you?  They're those lower Fifth Avenue people you no longer wish to associate with.  

I did notice that Mrs. Fish was happy to have the son at Newport and was genuinely cordial to him.  But Mom shows up with the calling card and invitation and she doesn't even come downstairs.  

And yes, I can already see Gladys in the role of Consuelo Vanderbilt, married off to a British lord and consigned to a marriage of misery.  She even bears a slight resemblance to her.  

[dmc]

2 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

I don’t entirely disagree. I think both things can be true that Bertha needs validation and also desires a goal to occupy her time that once she achieves it will make feel fulfilled.

George wants business success and doesn’t need the other parts. I agree there. However, I think the business success is the reason he doesn’t need the other parts. I think having that goal of business success and ultimately achieving it makes him feel fulfilled and validated. Bertha doesn’t have that or anything else to make her feel the same way, thus giving rise to her desire to climb the social ladder.

Which is ironic because none of the old money people feel fulfilled either.  The whole reason Mrs. Astor created the social list was to achieve the same thing Bertha supposedly wants.  

[Hiyo]

Quote

I give some side-eye to Mr If-I-want-something-I-take-it, he starts to remind me of DA's Henry Talbot, Lady Mary's husband.

He doesn't remind me of Henry at all.

[kristen111]

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

You can very much see that this is from the people that brought up Downton Abbey, it has a very similar feeling in its dialogue and stories, so lets hope that it stays "fun" Downton, like in the first few seasons, and not "headache" Downton, like in much of the last few seasons. I enjoyed the second episode quite a bit, even with some of the awkward dialogue and the millions of characters and subplots. I find most of the characters interesting and I really enjoy this time period. Yes, the "New Money" VS "Old Money" conflict was very much a thing, and yes, it really was this stupid. People were very upset about the idea of people without "proper breeding" entering into high society, especially as more and more self made types started making their fortunes. A lot of it was similar to themes that were explored on Downton as well, the uppercrust elite coming to the realization that they might not rule the world forever, even if they have been promised that the world was their birthright. A lot of it is snobbery, that only people born into wealth deserve to be a part of society, but there was also a lot of real fear of the New Money coming in and replacing the Old Money, who at this point in history just couldn't often keep up with the New Money when it came to their checkbooks. 

Mr. Russel coming in with the big flex, so big that even Mrs. Astor had to respect it! That is certainly one way to get people to come to visit their house, that was pretty awesome. If the Russel's are committing to going big or going home, they might as well lean into it. 

I am really curious about Mrs. Chamberlain and why she is considered so scandalous and her money so dirty. With these people, it could be anything from her husband being a hitman to her having a second cousin who married a dockworker. 

I am so annoyed with Cynthia Nixon and her nonsense over on And Just Like That, but I do actually like her here a lot. Ada is so sweet and demure, but I don't think as stupid as people think she is. I think she's more sweet and dreamy then actually dumb, she seems to know the score even if she doesn't like it.

I wish we saw more of the Downstairs cast, I feel like we hardly know them.

I just could not like Cynthia Nixon in “And just like that”, but love her in this series.  What a difference in acting.  It doesn’t look like the same person at all.

[dmc]

18 minutes ago, Hiyo said:

He doesn't remind me of Henry at all.

Bertha reminds me of Edith and her husband reminds me of the DA character that owned a newspaper that Mary was engaged to

Edited February 1, 2022 by dmc

[PRgal]

12 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

I liked this episode, but felt underwhelmed.  I wish there were bigger stakes.  Instead of the Russells having a generic Anglo-Norman name/background, only NEW MONEY!, why couldn't they be first or second-generation German, or the father Jewish (like Cora's father)?  Instead of the aunts being part of a generic old money family, why couldn't Agnes be the doyenne of Old New York?  There's just so little tension.  The last scene with Mr. New Money solving his problems with new money might have had more of a punch if he were specifically trying to out-scheme Agnes.  Instead it seemed like she was there as an observer. 

Otherwise, between Raikes and Larry Russell, I'd take Raikes by a mile.  Larry seems like such a milksop.  His incredibly hot father, though, reminds me of Hugh Jackman.

Maybe we'll see more of that later this season.  Who I'm really intrigued about is Peggy.  There's very little (written) history of Black money/middle class at that time.  Maybe the show would influence more people to write about their own families...

[kristen111]

2 hours ago, izabella said:

That scene didn't really move me.  It didn't feel like a triumphant comeuppance, although that's how it was intended and that's how the Russells thought of it, and how everyone thought of it.  So, he paid a ton of money to shut down their little charity bazaar.  And? 

Maybe all of these social climbing machinations would have been more impactful if we'd had more time to get to know the characters before all the slings and arrows started flying.

I agree with this.  Agnes is a lot of bluster, but she's not unkind underneath, and her biggest sin seems to be ignoring people she doesn't know and doesn't want to socialize with.  Ada is a lot sharper than she initially seemed, and she is not averse to lobbing some zingers at Agnes' more obnoxious opinions and statements.

I love that Ada has a mind of her own.  Also, being she was the baby in the family, she didn’t have any animosity toward her brother, Marians father, unlike Agnes.  Marian, telling Ada “ I love you” was touching.  They both needed that.

 

 

 

[Kirsty]

I guess the Russell's lady's maid is letting Mr. Russell know that she's available, should he be interested in having an affair. She's gambling with her livelihood.

The Russell children are nice but not interesting. (Their parents are the opposite.) The son, Larry, is lovely to look at, and very pleasant, but that's it. I wonder if we just haven't got to know him yet, but maybe there isn't anything more to know! Maybe he's an agreeable Charles Bingley type. Marian is more interesting than him because she has a stronger personality — presumably taking after her aunt.

But then the primary romance of Downton Abbey was Lady Mary/Matthew, where she had a strong personality like her grandmother, and he was a nice man who would inherit everything. The end.

Of course, you could also say that Marian/Raikes is a little like Lady Sybil/Branson, where she's a well-meaning aristocrat who wants to change things, and he's a very determined working man who's smitten by her.

The problem is that I don't find either of Marian's potential romances compelling! To make it compelling, one of the characters would have to be a huge snob, and the other would have to be new money or someone from old money who disregards the rules. Because that is the central conflict of the show. Then they would clash, sparks would fly etc. But, judging by Downton, I think Julian Fellowes prefers more harmonious romances.

Edited February 1, 2022 by Kirsty

[Brian Cronin]

1 hour ago, Carolina Girl said:

I would have thought that Bertha would have attempted to take the opportunity of being alone with Mrs. Morris after dinner to perhaps express some admiration and maybe even flattery for the "old society" - i.e., their good works - which could transition into "if the armory doesn't work out, I hope you'll allow me to offer my ballroom as an alternative."   Even Mrs. Fain told Marion that they should have taken her up on the offer.  But Mrs. Morris decided to be an ass.  

 

A relatively subtle (compared to some of the more over-the-top parts of the show) bit was how Morris said she couldn't do it because Fane would never go for it, while Fane didn't do it because Morris was against it, which she was only against because she felt like Fane was going to be against it and felt Fane would judge her if she supported it. So even two really good friends like Fane and Morris have this distance of expectations between them preventing them from coming to an agreement that they both actually really wanted. It was a nice touch. 

Edited February 1, 2022 by Brian Cronin
Oops, it's Fane, not Fain.

[izabella]

33 minutes ago, Kirsty said:

The problem is that I don't find either of Marian's potential romances compelling! To make it compelling, one of the characters would have to be a huge snob, and the other would have to be new money or someone from old money who disregards the rules. Because that is the central conflict of the show. Then they would clash, sparks would fly etc

For me, her potential love interests aren't the problem; she is.  Marian isn't compelling, so I find her romances uninteresting, at least so far.  I find Peggy far more compelling and interesting than Marian.

30 minutes ago, Brian Cronin said:

A relatively subtle (compared to some of the more over-the-top parts of the show) bit was how Morris said she couldn't do it because Fane would never go for it, while Fane didn't do it because Morris was against it, which she was only against because she felt like Fane was going to be against it and felt Fane would judge her if she supported it. So even two really good friends like Fane and Morris have this distance of expectations between them preventing them from coming to an agreement that they both actually really wanted. It was a nice touch. 

And they are both concerned about what Mrs. Astor would say, so even if they somehow crossed their own distance of expectations, they still wouldn't risk alienating her.

[Carolina Girl]

12 minutes ago, izabella said:

And they are both concerned about what Mrs. Astor would say, so even if they somehow crossed their own distance of expectations, they still wouldn't risk alienating her.

Oh I hadn't that overblown "opening" of the bizarre into account.   Wonder what Mrs. Astor thought about being in the same room and breathing the same air as the scandalous Mrs. Chamberlain?

[dmc]

Does this show have a hot guy?  Where's our gilded hunk

[AntFTW]

2 hours ago, dmc said:

Which is ironic because none of the old money people feel fulfilled either.  The whole reason Mrs. Astor created the social list was to achieve the same thing Bertha supposedly wants.  

100% agreed. It's ridiculous.

[AntFTW]

The venom shooting from those eyes 🤣

[peachmangosteen]

5 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Also, Blake Ritson feels miscast as Oscar. He's a good actor but he's in his 40s and it's creeping me out to see him stalking young Agnes Russell who looks all of 16. (I know Taissa Farmiga is older than that, but her character still looks very young.)

This. Is Oscar supposed to be quite a bit older than Gladys and her brother or are we supposed to think they're similar ages?

13 minutes ago, dmc said:

Does this show have a hot guy?  

Carrie C***'s husband is hot as hell. I don't remember most of the character's names yet.

I continue to be surprised that I enjoy this. Maybe I actually don't hate period pieces like I thought lol. I'm also super glad this episode was a reasonable length.

[dmc]

2 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

100% agreed. It's ridiculous.

Old money never feels secure in their place either.  There are always looking for ways to keep their position.  Bertha thinks she is headed to a set destination but it's always moving.  

Just enjoy your mansion and your family.  

Just now, peachmangosteen said:

This. Is Oscar supposed to be quite a bit older than Gladys and her brother or are we supposed to think they're similar ages?

Carrie C***'s husband is hot as hell. I don't remember most of the character's names yet

I continue to be surprised that I enjoy this. Maybe I actually don't hate period pieces like I thought lol. I'm also super glad this episode was a reasonable length.

Ok thank you for making me Google Carrie C***.  I may need to relook at him, that maid was certainly feeling it.  

[MerBearHou]

I laughed out loud when Ada asked "what about me" when Agnes said Oscar must and will inherit all of the money and Agnes said "Don't be ridiculous; I'll outlive you" so nonchalantly.  Ada's little reaction was like "Really??"

[Tippi]

I can see the appeal of Morgan Spector, but so far what I'm thinking of Mr. Russell is Snidely Whiplash.  His and Bertha's ruthlessness are making me wish for a flash forward to 1929 to hopefully see them lose their fortune.

[buttersister]

So, George and Bertha are a good match--you can see what the attraction was back in the day and they are absolutely birds of a feather. If one enjoys revenge tales, sign up for these two. Driven much? Oh yeah, and zero fucks to give for any collateral damage. George was performing for himself as much as his wife.

My sentimental favorite is Agnes for the same reason I watched DA for Violet, i.e., for Baranski and Dame Maggie. I watched entire seasons of DA because the Dowager would have a line or two that killed. Never cared about Mary and have no vested interest in Marion. Further on the Fellowes Line of Plotting, the cook's gambling problem will last and be resolved along the lines of Mrs. Patmore's vision problem. 

The suitors are all boring (see Lady Mary after Matthew, who, well, was boring, too). I'm with Peggy and hope her Mom comes back soon (Baranski and MacDonald scene, please!).

Edited February 2, 2022 by buttersister

[CarpeFelis]

4 hours ago, kristen111 said:

I love that Ada has a mind of her own.  Also, being she was the baby in the family, she didn’t have any animosity toward her brother, Marians father, unlike Agnes.  Marian, telling Ada “ I love you” was touching.  They both needed that.

I’m wondering about that comment Agnes made about Marian’s mother. Her tone implied there was something unacceptable about her. Could it be that she was from the wrong side of the tracks and that’s another reason (in addition to the house being sold) for the falling out between the sisters and Marian’s father?

[Haleth]

“Why don’t we go out and roll in the gutter?  It will save time.”  Agnes has the best lines. 

[izabella]

1 hour ago, dmc said:

Old money never feels secure in their place either.  There are always looking for ways to keep their position.  Bertha thinks she is headed to a set destination but it's always moving.  

Just enjoy your mansion and your family.  

I hope Fellowes plans to show us the enjoyable parts of old ny and status, as well as of new money and endless riches.  We've been hit over the head with the old vs. new in these last two episodes, and I'd like to see more than everyone's anxiety and insecurity about their place.  We got a little of that with the Rhode Island summer mansions and the party at Mrs. Fish's, but I hope to see what all that social status gets you. 

I guess maybe it's just really about power, because yeah, enjoy your mansion and family and who cares what the Astors say.  I know that's not enough for Bertha.

[LiterateDog]

21 hours ago, AntFTW said:

I shit you not. I looked it up too on the same website.

I understood that $50 then would be more than it is today but I needed to really understand Ada's shock at $50. Once I saw that $1,300, I reacted the same way Ada did.

ANTFTW, it's actually even more than that when you look at what people were making as wages at that time. Those calculators usually way undercalculate how things have inflated. During the time of the show, $50 could easily be 1 - 3 months of wages, depending on what one was doing. And for a cook or other house servant, a significant part of their wages was in their room and board.

 

This article is very interesting:

https://careertrend.com/salaries-in-the-1880s-13655312.html

[Chippings]

I'm really appreciating the discussions here, and they're helping me digest all the input from Episodes 1 and 2.  At the end of 2, actually, without the coaching, I was thinking "These people are horrible and, beautiful costumes aside, I really don't want to watch them irrationally stomp on the people they want to accept them."  I'll give it another try, though. 

Using, maybe, 21st century logic about one part, I had this thought about the truncated 3-day charity bazaar --   When the Russells burst in, he asked somebody "How much do you expect to make from this 3-day event?" and she said something like $300 (??) or so --  Maybe I remembered the figure incorrectly?  So he went around forcing hundred dollar bills on everybody - which someone above has kindly calculated at so much more in current money.  And they seemed to take that because it meant more money for the Deserving Poor.

My immediate thought was, would they not have said to him, "No thanks, we think we'll just go on for the three days and make what we usually do" -- and if the difference in money made a real difference to them, aren't they are all rich enough to make it up themselves?   Why did they let him shut the whole thing down after a couple of hours, spoil their pleasure of hanging out together, &c ?  It seemed very odd but maybe I don't think like a person born ca 1850 with Rich Person New York values.

The second thing that's interesting me -- the back story on Marion's friend from Brooklyn (sorry, her name is eluding me).  I was interested that the quite nice restaurant where she met her mother was entirely patronized by African-Americans, and men at that.  I read somewhere that  there was a nicely prosperous community of "Colored" people in Brooklyn in these years, living the kind of lives illustrated by the restaurant - and saying "Why would we even bother to go over to Manhattan where all that other mess is going on."  I hope we hear much more about that.

 

 

 

 

[Brian Cronin]

4 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

Is Oscar supposed to be quite a bit older than Gladys and her brother or are we supposed to think they're similar ages?

He's definitely supposed to be older. He is a legit businessman. He's just also immature. The actor is 41, so let's say the character is supposed to be...34? Baranski is 69 in real life, but I suspect she'd playing 60 in the show, so she'd have been 26 when she had him, which sounds right, right?

[SailorGirl]

1 hour ago, Chippings said:

I'm really appreciating the discussions here, and they're helping me digest all the input from Episodes 1 and 2.  At the end of 2, actually, without the coaching, I was thinking "These people are horrible and, beautiful costumes aside, I really don't want to watch them irrationally stomp on the people they want to accept them."  I'll give it another try, though. 

Using, maybe, 21st century logic about one part, I had this thought about the truncated 3-day charity bazaar --   When the Russells burst in, he asked somebody "How much do you expect to make from this 3-day event?" and she said something like $300 (??) or so"

 

 

She said $30 or $40 . . . so assume that was the average for each booth. Mr. Russell offered $100 on the spot to each booth, surpassing in five minutes anything they could have realistically raised over three days by at least double. Thus, the slam dunk/peacocking/lion roaring of Mr. Russell making it both the most successful charity event for those who actually benefitted from the charity and simultaneously putting in their place the women who dismissed his wife and whose standing relied on the act of putting on the charity event.

The indigent mothers and children mattered little to the matrons, so long as they could self-congratulate on a "most successful event for the poor and downtrodden. How wonderful we all are, and especially Mrs. X for all her hard work and effort putting it all together!" And Mrs. Astor showed up to declare the event "well and truly open"? One could not ask for more!! 

The "old money" had to just sit back and let it happen--to do otherwise would be to admit it wasn't actually about the charity recipients. It was masterful manipulation of the accepted, "proper" norms.

As Mrs. Astor privately acknowledged. But not publicly . . . "yet."  

Edited February 2, 2022 by SailorGirl

[Hanahope]

I loved Agnes' line to Ada about outliving her, lol.  Dowager Countess indeed.

I wonder if Peggy's question to the lawyer had something to do with marriage in PA?  

ah, insider trading begins.

 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

6 hours ago, dmc said:

Does this show have a hot guy?  Where's our gilded hunk

Larry Russell, Tom Raikes the lawyer, Jack Treacher the footman.

(Also, Matthew had a personality, had convictions of his own, and could talk back to people; he wasn't boring.)

7 hours ago, Brian Cronin said:

A relatively subtle (compared to some of the more over-the-top parts of the show) bit was how Morris said she couldn't do it because Fane would never go for it, while Fane didn't do it because Morris was against it, which she was only against because she felt like Fane was going to be against it and felt Fane would judge her if she supported it. So even two really good friends like Fane and Morris have this distance of expectations between them preventing them from coming to an agreement that they both actually really wanted. It was a nice touch. 

No, Mrs Morris was lying when she said to her husband that Mrs Fane was against it, which he saw through and she then more or less admitted. As Mrs Fane said, it was Mrs Morris who wouldn't hear of it.

Only disappointment for me so far has been that George and Larry have had barely any interaction onscreen, which they'll need to have if George wants Larry to come into his business like he mentioned in the pilot episode. And Larry'll have to learn how to be properly cutthroat if he's going to survive there. Otherwise, he'll need a different occupation. He really needs to step up and show some concern for their place in society instead of just being the easygoing guy who takes things for granted and doesn't want to rock the boat, right now he doesn't do enough to feel like part of the same family as his parents or acknowledge that these things will have a real impact on him.

Oscar, Larry and Gladys had a dinner together, but we didn't get to see it, we just heard about it. Too much to hope for a deleted scene?

Agnes and Oscar's snark is entertaining. The most likeable characters so far are Mr and Mrs Russell (What scenes did the people who said Bertha was rude to her guests watch? No, she wasn't, she was very magnanimous.), Peggy and Marian, although Marian's insisting on keeping a rosy view of her father despite his economic malfeasance and its consequences for both her and his sisters is annoying. I don't care how nice he supposedly was if he left his sisters and then his daughter with nothing through avoidable debts. That does not go hand in hand with being nice, or with challenging the establishment either, so it's hard to picture him from the information we have.

(Being soft and quiet with these people just gets you used whenever it's convenient and otherwise ignored, 'cause they know you won't object to not being invited anywhere they don't have to invite you, so they won't, because it's about blood; they don't care that you're nice and won't invite you so that they can enjoy your nice company - just see how little impact it has on the listeners whenever Ada or Marian points out that Gladys, Tom or Larry seems nice.)

.

Edited February 2, 2022 by Noneofyourbusiness

[Noneofyourbusiness]

52 minutes ago, SailorGirl said:

She said $30 or $40 . . . so assume that was the average for each booth. Mr. Russell offered $100 on the spot to each booth, surpassing in five minutes anything they could have realistically raised over three days by at least double. Thus, the slam dunk/peacocking/lion roaring of Mr. Russell making it both the most successful charity event for those who actually benefitted from the charity and simultaneously putting in their place the women who dismissed his wife and whose standing relied on the act of putting on the charity event.

Exactly, someone gets it! And it demonstrated that the Russells had power and couldn't just be ignored. It was far from pointless.

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[AntFTW]

4 minutes ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Oscar, Larry and Gladys had a dinner together, but we didn't get to see it, we just heard about it. Too much to hope for a deleted scene?

My understanding was that it was only Larry and Oscar that had dinner together. Bertha wouldn’t let Gladys go.

[ProudMary]

19 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

ah, insider trading begins.

Yes, that was exactly where my mind went also. I was under the impression that there was no regulation in that area at the time, but the Alderman (blanking on his name) did say something to the effect of, "I suspect that's why we're not having this meeting in your office." It was clear that minimally, they realized what they were planning was unethical and possibly illegal. 😠

Be it late 19th century in this series or early 21st in reality, "Eat the rich."

[Noneofyourbusiness]

13 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

My understanding was that it was only Larry and Oscar that had dinner together. Bertha wouldn’t let Gladys go.

Oh, that's right. But Oscar and Gladys did at least speak long enough after he went over to the Russell house for her to think he was charming and for him to invite her to come with him and Larry. I would've liked to see that, and at least one of the two times Oscar and Larry were together offscreen in this episode.

Are we to assume Oscar took Larry over to the van Rijn house because Agnes and Ada mentioned wanting him to introduce Marian to suitable men, like they'd discussed the night before, even though we didn't see them telling him? Or that it was coincidence because Oscar wanted an introduction to Gladys?

.

Edited February 2, 2022 by Noneofyourbusiness

[AntFTW]

8 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

The most likeable characters so far are Mr and Mrs Russell (What scenes did the people who said Bertha was rude to her guests watch? No, she wasn't, she was very magnanimous.)

While they were invited to eat at Bertha’s table, Bertha’s guests (or rather just one of them) were being rude to her. Bertha was just handing back the snarky comments they were throwing out. Bertha dealt with an intolerable guest to do her husband a favor.

ETA: that may have been about the “at-home” of the first episode where she was rude to Mrs. Fane, for which Bertha rightly called out that Mrs. Fane only came “seal the deal” to get Bertha’s money.

Edited February 2, 2022 by AntFTW

[Noneofyourbusiness]

4 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

While they were invited to eat at Bertha’s table, Bertha’s guests (or rather just one of them) were being rude to her. Bertha was just handing back the snarky comments they were throwing out. Bertha dealt with an intolerable guest to do her husband a favor.

Exactly. I can't remember her snarking, passive-aggressiving or dismissing anyone who didn't snark her, passive-aggressive her, or say something that was clearly an insincere lie to her first.

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Edited February 2, 2022 by Noneofyourbusiness

[izabella]

14 minutes ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Are we to assume Oscar took Larry over to the van Rijn house because Agnes and Ada mentioned wanting him to introduce Marian to suitable men, like they'd discussed the night before, even though we didn't see them telling him? Or that it was coincidence?

I think he did it to torment his mother. 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

14 minutes ago, izabella said:

I think he did it to torment his mother. 

I don't think so, I think he wants his mother to accept the Russells because of their wealth and proximity ('cause he wants to get in on that action) and is frustrated that she won't, and was hoping for a more reasonable reaction, rather than it being a child-acting-out-for-the-sake-of-acting-out thing.

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Edited February 2, 2022 by Noneofyourbusiness

[Brian Cronin]

46 minutes ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

No, Mrs Morris was lying when she said to her husband that Mrs Fane was against it, which he saw through and she then more or less admitted. As Mrs Fane said, it was Mrs Morris who wouldn't hear of it.

I didn't say she said Fane was against it, she said that Fane WOULD be against it because she didn't even want to put it to her, "Aurora Fane's the chairwoman again, and they had a falling-out last time." So she instead pooh-poohed when it came up with Aurora, while Aurora would have gone for it had she not put the idea down. She didn't want to take the chance, because she's so scared of her reputation and similarly, Aurora wasn't going to push the issue, either, for the same reason. They're really good friends and yet they fear being straight with each other about this stuff. 

[Sarah 103]

14 hours ago, SoTheresThat said:

The men were building the industry and the economy, while the women were building the society.  It was the women's "job" to keep the new money, no family connection outsiders out of society.  The men seemed like they were more accepting.

I think the men had to be more accepting due to being in the world of business and finance. They couldn't continue to make deals and only engage in business transactions with people from old money if they wanted to increase thier fortunes.

As others here have posted, the women created society because they didn't have anything else socially acceptable open to them. They had to do something while the men were at work.  

 

[Jeddah]

1 hour ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Exactly. I can't remember her snarking, passive-aggressiving or dismissing anyone who didn't snark her, passive-aggressive her, or say something that was clearly an insincere lie to her first.

She was rude to Mrs. Fane, and not in a passive aggressive or snarky way. In a calling her out for not having as much money as her way. Then she made a snarky comment to Marian about her leaving early. Marian has always been nice to the Russells.