S01.E02: Money Isn't Everything

[kristen111]

On 2/1/2022 at 5:36 PM, peachmangosteen said:

Carrie C***'s husband is hot as hell. I don't remember most of the character's names yet.

For some reason, I find a man who still loves his wife after many years is sexy.  I hope he doesn’t disappoint.  The maid is after him, and he doesn’t give her the time of day.  Love that.

[iMonrey]

Quote

Why are people assuming that Oscar is 40, and not 30? 

Because the actor who plays him is 43, and looks every bit of it, IMO. I could be bias, I remember him playing a major villain on Da Vinci's Demons and that was ten years ago. And he wasn't young then.

I'm not sure what age Oscar is supposed to be. Even being 43 wouldn't necessarily disqualify him as a suitable match for an 18-year old girl in the 1880s, given the societal angle. The Russells are social climbers and he comes from old money. They might find the prospect of marrying their daughter off to gain social standing among the old-monied advantageous.

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, dmc said:

I only remember because they are the oddest glasses I have ever seen 

It made me think of two descriptions I heard of Roger Stone, who had a similar style. I think both were on The Daily Show. Since he has a similar style to Stone, they fit him too.

One was "Dickensian coke dealer" and the other was "looks like he's about to carjack Chitty Chitty Bang Bang."

[twoods]

The actor that plays Larry is 28 so I was thinking that Oscar was late 20’s to early 30’s. The actor doesn’t look 44 to me but it was normal at that time for older men to go after younger women, especially if he’s trying to find a wife and hide being gay. He figures she’s young and naive. I’m glad that her mother knows what his intentions are and wants nothing to do with him, no matter how wealthy he is.

I am intrigued with Jeanne Tripplehorn’s character. I liked her banter with Marian and that it pissed off Agnes. Agnes is so ridiculously snooty and I love it. 

[yellowjacket]

They're going to have to put some smoldering sexy yearning into this show soon or it's going to whither on the stem. Someone beautiful is going to have to burst into a drawing room on a big horse.

[dmc]

7 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Because the actor who plays him is 43, and looks every bit of it, IMO. I could be bias, I remember him playing a major villain on Da Vinci's Demons and that was ten years ago. And he wasn't young then.

I'm not sure what age Oscar is supposed to be. Even being 43 wouldn't necessarily disqualify him as a suitable match for an 18-year old girl in the 1880s, given the societal angle. The Russells are social climbers and he comes from old money. They might find the prospect of marrying their daughter off to gain social standing among the old-monied advantageous.

lol 

7 hours ago, kristen111 said:

For some reason, I find a man who still loves his wife after many years is sexy.  I hope he doesn’t disappoint.  The maid is after him, and he doesn’t give her the time of day.  Love that.

The maid is awful too.  If you want to work for an old money family, then do that.  Also women who flirt with men in their own home with their wife there…NOPE. 

2 hours ago, yellowjacket said:

They're going to have to put some smoldering sexy yearning into this show soon or it's going to whither on the stem. Someone beautiful is going to have to burst into a drawing room on a big horse.

This!!!! 

Edited February 3, 2022 by dmc

[Brian Cronin]

12 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I'm not sure what age Oscar is supposed to be. Even being 43 wouldn't necessarily disqualify him as a suitable match for an 18-year old girl in the 1880s, given the societal angle. The Russells are social climbers and he comes from old money. They might find the prospect of marrying their daughter off to gain social standing among the old-monied advantageous.

Yeah, even if he were 43 on the show, it wouldn't rule him out as someone for an 18 year old to marry, but a 43-year-old wouldn't be gallivanting about and going to the parties he goes to. I think he's got to be early 30s on the show. Even that is pushing it, but it's less so than being in his 40s.

[Macbeth]

On 2/1/2022 at 12:29 PM, izabella said:

That scene didn't really move me.  It didn't feel like a triumphant comeuppance, although that's how it was intended and that's how the Russells thought of it, and how everyone thought of it.  So, he paid a ton of money to shut down their little charity bazaar.  And? 

Maybe all of these social climbing machinations would have been more impactful if we'd had more time to get to know the characters before all the slings and arrows started flying.

I agree with this.  Agnes is a lot of bluster, but she's not unkind underneath, and her biggest sin seems to be ignoring people she doesn't know and doesn't want to socialize with.  Ada is a lot sharper than she initially seemed, and she is not averse to lobbing some zingers at Agnes' more obnoxious opinions and statements.

I agree.  I think the Russells should have been introduced the 2nd episode.  You see old money people speculating on who's moving into the neighborhood.  Clutching their pearls, talking about who owned that property previously, etc....

[MissLucas]

As for Oscar (or his actor's) age: During the 19th and early 20th century young men in their early 20s often wanted to look older than they were - i.e. a more mature age was the goal. It meant getting more respect, respectability and power (or so they were thinking). And yes, that was also a plus on the marriage market since that look meant 'I'll be a good provider'. 

[blackwing]

17 hours ago, Hiyo said:

Unfortunately, that isn't how things played out back then. The new money (like the Vanderbilts) do make their way into society, though their old friends and C-listers would not have been invited. Basically the old and new merged together to become the elite society, one could say. Case in point, people like the Astors may have done their best to keep people like the Vanderbilts out, but they got in eventually. I have a feeling that is how the season could end (if it's a miniseries and not an ongoing series), with the Rusell's finally making it into New York Society.

I know from a historical perspective, the old and new money do merge together, so it would make sense to me that this season/series ends with the Russells finally being accepted.  However, I hope there is a bit more balance.  Since so far, I don't feel an ounce of sympathy towards Mrs. Russell.  And her husband is just an ass.  That old guy didn't want to sell his business to him that he's probably worked his whole life building up, so Russell's response is to build a new railroad and put the guy out of business.  I get that this is what happened in business back then, but it just seems like such a jerk thing to do.  At least show them negotiating more.

If they are trying to get me to like the Russells, they at least need to show why they are being unfairly treated.  Show us some scenes of them having fun and enjoying being with each other as a family.  Show the good qualities of Mrs. Russell, show that she has a kind heart.  Agnes may be stuck up and snooty but she definitely seems to have a kind heart inside of her, as does Ada.  Bertha's heart seems to be cold and black and she is laser focused on one thing and one thing only.

It doesn't help that she has such a severe look.  She never smiles, and her eyes seem perpetually squinty, cold and calculating.

17 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

It is. I have no idea who like 70% of them are lol. I mean, it has only been 2 eps but there are just so many people to remember. 

I agree, there are way too many people to remember.  Especially the downstairs staff.  Whenever they show the downstairs staff, unless Peggy is there, I have initial difficulty even identifying which house it is.  I wouldn't be able to pick out which butler belongs with which house.   And I don't really know what roles each has.   As it is the only ones I can identify (without names at that) are cook with the European accent who had the gambling issue, younger woman who didn't want to share a hall with Peggy, interfering older lady who might be the housekeeper that has something to say about everything, younger footman, French cook, younger woman who dislikes Bertha who I think is her lady's maid, maid who made a pass at Russell.  That's it.  The rest are just faces.

[kristen111]

14 hours ago, yellowjacket said:

They're going to have to put some smoldering sexy yearning into this show soon or it's going to whither on the stem. Someone beautiful is going to have to burst into a drawing room on a big horse.

Yep.  I agree.  I just can’t picture Marian in a love scene.  She just looks too much like a little girl.  Mrs. Russel could pull it off.

[Roseanna]

4 hours ago, Macbeth said:

I think the Russells should have been introduced the 2nd episode.  You see old money people speculating on who's moving into the neighborhood.  Clutching their pearls, talking about who owned that property previously, etc....

Well, that would be too boring to me. I think that the main antagonists and their goal in life must be presented and tension between them set in the first episode. 

The main fault is Marian has no special qualities, goal in life nor serious interests (yes, we know that a young woman's destiny was marry well, but what does she think about it - does she seek for love or is she willing to marry for money/security?). And when she came, there wouldn't rise any problem between her and her aunts who accepted her straightaway - the classic way to make the audience to like the heroine is to get her in misfortune and let her fight against it (yes, she lost her dad, but does she long for him? and what if her aunts find out she went secretly to a party is simply too little a problem). 

Peggy is nice, but it's like she has stolen all those things (talent, goal and secret) that would have made Marian interesting.  

[Roseanna]

Some had anticipated that Mrs Russell would sell her daughter to a marriage with a member of Old Money if she could in that manner get herself to their society. But isn't that plot too obvious? 

Also, Mrs Russell has herself made a love much and the couple is still in love, so maybe she want hers daughter both love and money.  

But she would be wise to arrange her coming out soon. Oscar's only charm is that she hadn't met other young men. 

[izabella]

21 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Some had anticipated that Mrs Russell would sell her daughter to a marriage with a member of Old Money if she could in that manner get herself to their society. But isn't that plot too obvious? 

It's not too obvious for Fellowes.  Obvious is his specialty.

I think Mrs. Russell will absolutely try to marry Gladys to Old NY.  But not to Oscar.  He's not important enough, and his family isn't important enough.  She'll be aiming at the very top of the social ladder for her daughter, and son.

[Carolina Girl]

I seem to recall from the first episode that Mrs. Russell saying that she fired her old housekeeper when they moved into the mansion because "she wasn't up to the task" of the big house - yet the new housekeeper, in her conversation with the chef, seemed to express a feeling of complete inadequacy in doing her job. 

 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

On 2/2/2022 at 9:40 AM, peachmangosteen said:

It does to me as I wanna know if they're trying to sell that obviously 40 year old actor as a 20 something lol.

I think Oscar is older than Larry but younger than Blake Ritson.

On 2/2/2022 at 11:38 AM, JenE4 said:

But, regardless, I didn’t get the impression that Oscar is trying to court Gladys. Granted, I’m not so great with names/faces but isn’t Oscar in a relationship with John Adams IV?!

Oscar brings up how he wants to get to know Gladys fairly constantly, and even tried to make Marian host a tea specifically so she would seat them next to each other in exchange for a favor. It's clear he has an eye on that Russell money. Being in a relationship with John IV is irrelevant because it could never be open.

On 2/2/2022 at 2:15 PM, blackwing said:

It seems like both Agnes and Ada view Agnes having sacrificed herself for the good of the family and entered into the marriage with Mr. Van Rhijn.  I think the father or brother gambled away all the money, so Agnes was forced into a marriage for money to save the family fortunes?

The brother, and yes, that's what happened.

On 2/2/2022 at 3:12 PM, izabella said:

And, she dropped her own sister.  Who drops contact with a sister just because they moved a few blocks away? 

I do wonder about Larry and Gladys not asking why they don't have their aunt 'round. Perhaps in a future episode?

On 2/2/2022 at 4:15 PM, Roseanna said:

Where was told that their father arranged the match for Agnes?

 

On 2/2/2022 at 4:30 PM, AntFTW said:

Did they say their father made the match between Agnes and her husband? If so, I must have missed that.

No, they didn't say that. And the fact that she did it because Henry squandered their family assets implies their father had died beforehand, since otherwise Henry wouldn't have been the one in control of the assets.

On 2/2/2022 at 4:49 PM, meatball77 said:

Being gay wasn't even something that would be contemplated.  Sodomy was illegal.  A capital offense most places (not sure about NYC at that time).

I also don't see Oscar as effeminate at all. I can't think of anything effeminate he's done or said, unless being sarcastic counts, but so is Mr Russell. I think knowing that Oscar's gay might color one's perception that way.

.

[AntFTW]

8 minutes ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

No, they didn't say that. And the fact that she did it because Henry squandered their family assets implies their father had died beforehand, since otherwise Henry wouldn't have been the one in control of the assets.

Yes, that’s what I thought. Just making sure I wasn’t missing anything.

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

I also don't see Oscar as effeminate at all. I can't think of anything effeminate he's done or said, unless being sarcastic counts, but so is Mr Russell. I think knowing that Oscar's gay might color one's perception that way.

.

I think his physicality is very different from Mr. Russell's--and Larry as well--and it's meant to set off the gaydar. 

[Roseanna]

16 hours ago, izabella said:

It's not too obvious for Fellowes.  Obvious is his specialty.

I think Mrs. Russell will absolutely try to marry Gladys to Old NY.  But not to Oscar.  He's not important enough, and his family isn't important enough.  She'll be aiming at the very top of the social ladder for her daughter, and son.

Yes, obvious is Fellowes' speciality but not that simply. There must also be tension to keep the audience.

I agree with you that Oscar isn't good enough for Mrs Russell, at least not when she had tried better options. Gladys is so young that there is time.

But the marriage arrangement could also be done "naturally": inviting suitable young men to one's parties. It's inevitable that young girl like Gladys falls in love with some of them. 

On the other hand, Gladys is inexperienced that she can be an easy prey to a fortune hunter and a seducer. In that respect, Marian was naive when she wondered why parents set limits to Gladys.   

[AntFTW]

11 hours ago, Roseanna said:

On the other hand, Gladys is inexperienced that she can be an easy prey to a fortune hunter and a seducer. In that respect, Marian was naive when she wondered why parents set limits to Gladys.

Marian’s circle is very small for now. I imagine that fortune hunting was not very common in Doylestown.

To further illustrate your point, Marian also doesn’t know that her cousin is a fortune hunter. She thinks Oscar shares her friendly view of Russells’ kids, and not that Oscar is just chasing the money.

[hatchetgirl]

I didn't hate this episode. The script is still a bit painful and obvious. Of course, the cook was going to steal silver. Sigh. 

I did love Mr. Russell taking care of bidnez for his wife! True love (and he's not terrible on the eyes).

[iMonrey]

Quote

I agree, there are way too many people to remember.  Especially the downstairs staff. 

I have no trouble keeping track of the upstairs folk. But I agree about the downstairs characters. They are not being fleshed out as well as the servants on Downton. I'm not sure if that's deliberate or not. I think there's an expectation that this show be an American version of Downton, and on Downton the servants had just as much story as the family did. Here, not so much. 

Quote

I also don't see Oscar as effeminate at all. I can't think of anything effeminate he's done or said, unless being sarcastic counts, but so is Mr Russell. I think knowing that Oscar's gay might color one's perception that way.

Well, the outfit he wore to Mrs. Fish's party was pretty flamboyant, to say the least. 😀

Quote

I agree with you that Oscar isn't good enough for Mrs Russell, at least not when she had tried better options. Gladys is so young that there is time.

It won't happen next week or maybe even this season, but in the long run Mrs. Russell may not have many options if other "good" families don't want a Russell in their family. Story-wise, it's a fairly obvious direction to go, given that the two main families are the Van Rhijns and the Russells, and given Agnes's animosity toward the latter. That, and pairing Marian up with Larry. The conflicts write themselves.

[Cherpumple]

7 hours ago, AntFTW said:

Marian’s circle is very small for now. I imagine that fortune hunting was not very common in Doylestown.

To further illustrate your point, Marian also doesn’t know that her cousin is a fortune hunter. She thinks Oscar shares her friendly view of Russells’ kids, and not that Oscar is just chasing the money.

Marian does know Oscar's intention. When Ada confronted her about the maid's gambling debt and offered to pay it herself, Marian thanked her and said she was glad that she was no longer indebted to Oscar because she hated the idea of setting up the innocent Gladys with her fortune hunter cousin. She even asked Ada if she was allowed to say that about Oscar, and Ada said it was okay to say it to her.

I remember the scene because I watched it a few times. The first time I was too distracted by the WORST looking braid I've ever seen on tv. 😄

 

[AntFTW]

5 hours ago, Cherpumple said:

When Ada confronted her about the maid's gambling debt and offered to pay it herself, Marian thanked her and said she was glad that she was no longer indebted to Oscar because she hated the idea of setting up the innocent Gladys with her fortune hunter cousin.

You’re right. I completely forgot about that.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

Of course, we're all just assuming that Oscar's gay and not bi, which he could be for all we know.

.

[retired watcher]

On 1/31/2022 at 11:22 PM, edhopper said:

So Russell is basically Alexander Cassatt, but it is way too early for Penn Station.

He said he is a combination of Jay Gould and Cornelius Vanderbilt. The podcast really has some great behind the scenes info.

[mojito]

I see Marian as the show's hub. Through her we meet all the interesting characters and we share in her bewilderment of this strange society. She doesn't need to be oozing with personality, she's new here and trying to figure out her role as a sort-of member of Old New York. She's sort of like the first person narrator who's telling you about everyone else. Her character will surface slowly.

Every time I see Oscar, with his parted hair and flat top, I expect to see a yarmulke there.  I can't stop seeing that invisible yarmulke. 

For some strange reason--I can't put my finger on it--I took note of Agnes' comment, "I'm not interested in facts, not if they interfere with my beliefs." 

I also liked, "If you don't want to be disappointed, only help those who help themselves." She said this to Peggy.

Whatever Peggy's situation, her father's interference apparently ruined whatever she had going on. He was saving the family from a disgrace. Did he force her to break up with someone? Was she fraternizing with someone of the wrong color, class, or sex? Did he have her baby taken from her and swept off into adoption without her permission? Ah, so many possibilities. 

I sense that Bertha is surfacing now because she was unable to buy her way in to the cool kids' neighborhood.  Now that she's got this new build, though, she's there and she has everyone's attention. Her character really amuses me. She simply doesn't understand the rules of the game. Her husband does, and he's having fun breaking them.

The French chef's got a thing for the old maid housekeeper. I'm guessing we'll learn more about the downstairs people soon.

As for the men being a bit more down-to-earth...I would think a lot of that has to do with the fact that they've got mistresses from the other classes.

Does anyone else keep a tab open with the names and faces of characters of this show so they can make comments here?

 

[MissLucas]

I would not dismiss the female sphere as simply rich ladies wasting time and their husband's money. There was a lot of soft power amassed in salons and drawing rooms. Reputations could be made and unmade. Matches - and therefore important family ties for business and politics - were being prepared and sometimes even decided upon by those matriarchs in steel boned corsets. It's not just a matter of prestige for the Russells to enter that circle - it has real world benefits too. 

Of course it's debatable if their current tactic of 'shock and awe' is the best way to go about it. But Bertha can't simply sit back and do some nice needlepoint - it's actually her job to perform all those seemingly empty rituals (like running around the city handing out her card). Right after providing offspring of course. Since she's not to the manor born (or whatever the US equivalent is) she has no one to show her the ropes and give her hints how to do it properly. 

I wonder if Mrs Chamberlain will be the one who will act as a very discreet mentor one day. She knows the rules - apparently good enough to break them and still being able to keep a foot in the door of good society. That could be entertaining to watch.

 

 

[mansonlamps]

On 2/2/2022 at 4:58 PM, kristen111 said:

For some reason, I find a man who still loves his wife after many years is sexy.  I hope he doesn’t disappoint.  The maid is after him, and he doesn’t give her the time of day.  Love that.

 

On 2/3/2022 at 12:12 AM, dmc said:

lol 

The maid is awful too.  If you want to work for an old money family, then do that.  Also women who flirt with men in their own home with their wife there…NOPE. 

This!!!! 

Sigh.  Why do we still throw a parade for a man because he doesn't cheat when given the opportunity?  That should be the expected behavior,  not a pleasant surprise. 

Edited February 5, 2022 by mansonlamps

[dmc]

16 minutes ago, mansonlamps said:

 

Sigh.  Why do we still throw a parade for a man because he doesn't cheat when given the opportunity?  That should be the expected behavior,  not a pleasant surprise. 

She's saying she appreciates men being faithful to their wives as do I, no one threw any confetti.

[Roseanna]

10 hours ago, mansonlamps said:

Why do we still throw a parade for a man because he doesn't cheat when given the opportunity?  That should be the expected behavior,  not a pleasant surprise. 

The series describes the upper class in the end of the 19th century. At that time "the expected behavior" certainly wasn't that husbands were faithful to their wives.

There have also been times when also upper class wives could have affairs, provided they kept them secret. In Downton Abbey Fellowes was too much a romantic. Marriages between English aristocrats and American heiress often failed.

[Roseanna]

13 hours ago, MissLucas said:

I would not dismiss the female sphere as simply rich ladies wasting time and their husband's money. There was a lot of soft power amassed in salons and drawing rooms. Reputations could be made and unmade. Matches - and therefore important family ties for business and politics - were being prepared and sometimes even decided upon by those matriarchs in steel boned corsets. It's not just a matter of prestige for the Russells to enter that circle - it has real world benefits too. 

I, too, suspect that, unlike the series presents, husbands were indifferent about social acceptance. After all, the clubs were very important to men, as meeting places and signs of status. 

F.ex. Joe Kennedy was hurt when he wasn't accepted to most exclusive clubs in Harvard and determined that his sons wouldn't have the same fate. 

[Hiyo]

Quote

There have also been times when also upper class wives could have affairs

And the husband not caring, but only after they popped out a male heir.

[sempervivum]

21 hours ago, mojito said:

. She simply doesn't understand the rules of the game.

Oh, I think she understands them well. Her problem is that she doesn't have 30 years to subtly work her way into the good graces of the grande dames to clear the path for her daughter (and son, to a lesser extent) to be accepted into high society, which is her real aim, imo. 

 

[Roseanna]

On 2/5/2022 at 9:29 PM, mojito said:

I see Marian as the show's hub. Through her we meet all the interesting characters and we share in her bewilderment of this strange society. She doesn't need to be oozing with personality, she's new here and trying to figure out her role as a sort-of member of Old New York. She's sort of like the first person narrator who's telling you about everyone else. Her character will surface slowly.

That sounds nice. Yet, I doubt if a heroine who doesn't rise strong feelings straightaway can be a success. Even negative feelings towards Mrs Russell are better than lukewarm ones towards Marian. Mrs Russell has a goal in life and therefore she has a story. Marian hasn't either. 

[mojito]

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

Mrs Russell has a goal in life and therefore she has a story. Marian hasn't either. 

I guess I figured Marian to be under the age of 21, a country girl who's never been anywhere or done anything. I wouldn't expect much charisma out of her. Being probably twice her age, I'd expect her to have more of a past and more aspirations. 

[Roseanna]

9 hours ago, mojito said:

I guess I figured Marian to be under the age of 21, a country girl who's never been anywhere or done anything. I wouldn't expect much charisma out of her. 

Why can't a young country girl have charisma? After all, this is fiction. Heroines who are from the country have a charisma from Elizabeth Bennett to Anne Shirley.

[ahpny]

On 2/2/2022 at 4:49 PM, meatball77 said:

The Old Vs New money was complicated in the UK (as we saw in Downton which takes place a generation later) but it was even more complicated in the US because money was so much more ever present and because you could be a nobody and get social status in the US, it just took time and getting in the right circles.

One guess is that at least part of the reason why the "old v. new" was more complicated in the US than in the UK is because the US lacked any royalty-based aristocracy, and as a result, other arbitrary dividing lines (age of your "money") arose to fill in that gap.

Edited February 7, 2022 by ahpny

[RedHawk]

On 1/31/2022 at 10:16 PM, AntFTW said:

Agreed. I can't help but ask myself "did people actually do this?" and think this is the stupidest thing.

There are still plenty of people who judge others according to lineage, money, and social standing.

[RedHawk]

On 2/6/2022 at 4:48 AM, Roseanna said:

The series describes the upper class in the end of the 19th century. At that time "the expected behavior" certainly wasn't that husbands were faithful to their wives.

There have also been times when also upper class wives could have affairs, provided they kept them secret. In Downton Abbey Fellowes was too much a romantic. Marriages between English aristocrats and American heiress often failed.

Fellowes included dialogue and a few situations where it was shown that Lord G fell in love with Cora after marrying her for her money, that they loved each other and were happily married despite occasional struggles, and that they weren't very interested in having affairs. Some couples do stay in love and remain faithful, and that's how Fellowes wrote them. I don't think it's overly romantic. And again here he is writing a couple who are a strong match and appreciate each other. 

Edited February 12, 2022 by RedHawk

[Sarah 103]

On 2/6/2022 at 11:44 AM, sempervivum said:

 Her problem is that she doesn't have 30 years to subtly work her way into the good graces of the grande dames to clear the path for her daughter (and son, to a lesser extent) to be accepted into high society, which is her real aim, imo. 

Larry doesn't need help. He is doing just fine. He has a job with his father, an excellent education, and is being invited to Old Money parties/making friends with the younger generation of Old Money. 

I agree with you that Gladys is where her mother's plans will sink or swim. Everything depends on getting accepted so that Gladys's party can fill the ballroom with the right people, so that Gladys will be invited to all the right events, and so that Gladys can marry someone Old Money or with a title. 

[Roseanna]

4 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

I agree with you that Gladys is where her mother's plans will sink or swim. Everything depends on getting accepted so that Gladys's party can fill the ballroom with the right people, so that Gladys will be invited to all the right events, and so that Gladys can marry someone Old Money or with a title. 

Wouldn't it interesting if Gladys fell in love with a man who is talented and ambitious and likely to succeed in his profession in the future who doesn't belong to neither group and the matter caused a rift between her ambitious mother and father, after all, is his daughter's guardian? 

[Roseanna]

9 hours ago, RedHawk said:

Fellowes included dialogue and a few situations where it was shown that Lord G fell in love with Cora after marrying her for her money, that they loved each other and were happily married despite occasional struggles, and that they weren't very interested in having affairs. Some couples do stay in love and remain faithful, and that's how Fellowes wrote them. I don't think it's overly romantic. 

Were there such cases irl where the arranged marriage of an English aristocrat and an American heiress turned to a love match?

In Downton Abbey Crawleys have no unhappy marriages nor adultery (save what Dowager Countess gives hints about her past). I don't find that realistic but of course the series is essentially a fairy tale.   

    

 

[Hiyo]

Quote

Were there such cases irl where the arranged marriage of an English aristocrat and an American heiress turned to a love match?

Yes, there seemed to be a few.

[Sarah 103]

17 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Wouldn't it interesting if Gladys fell in love with a man who is talented and ambitious and likely to succeed in his profession in the future who doesn't belong to neither group and the matter caused a rift between her ambitious mother and father, after all, is his daughter's guardian? 

I totally love this idea. It's Gladys falling in love with a younger version of her father. He doesn't have wealth or social acceptance among the elite, but he has vision, drive, and ambition. 

[Scarlett45]

On 2/1/2022 at 8:34 AM, SailorGirl said:

I listened to the HBO podcast last night about this episode with Morgan Spector and he talked about the Russell's relationship. Essentially the answer is yes -- they are a "different" type of couple for this era in that they do love each other and aren't together because it was a "suitable" marriage. If he truly is an "upstart" and they were together before he really started making serious cash, then that's all the more likely they married for love and like rather than status ala "Old New York"--see Agnes vanRijhn.

Typing this, I just realized, that is likely going to be another facet of Agnes' character and her distaste for Bertha -- from everything we've heard, Agnes had to marry for money and it was apparently a very bad marriage, but Bertha is not only an upstart with wealth and security, she also has a husband who clearly loves her and will stand up for her. 

Yes- it’s clear they have a good marriage. Chemistry (physical and emotional), affection , and he respects her intellect. They likely did marry for personal reasons  , rather than status. I agree with you- I do think Agnes wants Marion to survive and be secure, without having to marry the first guy that comes along (I get the feeling her husband was an abuser).
 

I’m sure Agnes wishes she could’ve waited a while for another proposal and not feared she and Ada would be on the street. I liked Ada & Marion’s convo- no matter what her father did with whatever money, she did love him, and she might be angry and scared and grieving and not knowing how to deal with this new city/social circle but she doesn’t want people to hate him. 
 

Anyone think Oscar wants to court the Russell daughter for the cash? His mom might be harassing him to get married- no wife no heir. 

[AntFTW]

24 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Anyone think Oscar wants to court the Russell daughter for the cash? His mom might be harassing him to get married- no wife no heir. 

The funny thing is that we see Agnes put more effort into matchmaking for Marian than her son.

[Scarlett45]

57 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

The funny thing is that we see Agnes put more effort into matchmaking for Marian than her son.

Well Marion has a clock- she HAS to get married to be secure, and she’s in her “prime” right now. Oscar could marry in his 40s or 50s and spit out an heir. People may gossip as to why he’s not married, but he’s socially and economically protected in a way Marion isn’t. 

[AntFTW]

30 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Well Marion has a clock- she HAS to get married to be secure, and she’s in her “prime” right now. Oscar could marry in his 40s or 50s and spit out an heir. People may gossip as to why he’s not married, but he’s socially and economically protected in a way Marion isn’t. 

True.

[Absurda]

On 2/1/2022 at 7:10 PM, izabella said:

I guess maybe it's just really about power, because yeah, enjoy your mansion and family and who cares what the Astors say.  I know that's not enough for Bertha.

I'm late to the party, but this is 100% what it's about.  Society and social status are not about friendships, not about polite socializing, note even really about money.  It is, for the women, about power and influence.  The ability to exclude/include people is power.  The ability to throw a party and have other powerful/influential people attend is power.  Being the one other people want to know and be like is power.

Bertha is clearly an ambitious person, like her husband.  But, unlike him, her ability to go into business, make money and crush rivals is limited.  Society and social climbing would be the only outlet for her ambition.  Being kept out of the ruling elite and having to live by their rules instead of being the one to make the rules would be unacceptable.

To be constantly told that her money is green enough but she, personally, is not worthy of them has got to sting and be endlessly frustrating.  Well, old NY should be careful what they wish for, they wanted Russell money and they got it.