S11.E01: Episode 1

[susannah]

17 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

I think the postulate period is there to ensure that both sides know what they're getting into, and I can't imagine sussing out someone's reasons for joining isn't examined closely. You want to be sure there's a true calling. And even then, it doesn't always work out for various reasons. In some ways I wouldn't be surprised if somewhere down the road Sister Frances left the order. 

I can totally see that too. I can see her in some sort of service profession. It does seem surprising to expect that a very young woman would know for sure how she wants to spend the rest of her life, even if she thinks she does. I also just remembered that Sheilagh left the order. I forgot to ask earlier, does anyone think something happens to Miss Higgins next week? I didn't like her so much in the beginning. so rigid and frosty, but I do now.

[libgirl2]

1 hour ago, susannah said:

I can totally see that too. I can see her in some sort of service profession. It does seem surprising to expect that a very young woman would know for sure how she wants to spend the rest of her life, even if she thinks she does. I also just remembered that Sheilagh left the order. I forgot to ask earlier, does anyone think something happens to Miss Higgins next week? I didn't like her so much in the beginning. so rigid and frosty, but I do now.

I hope she is okay too. When they found those infant bodies, I was hoping they didn't belong to her. 

Edited March 22, 2022 by libgirl2

[Cetacean]

2 hours ago, EllaWycliffe said:

I will be the first to say I am not extremely knowledgeable on the ins and outs of London east end politics but I don't think Violet's position is so high up that she has the power to force others to do things like fix their buildings.

That was my thought as well. I imagine they deal with local issues like parade permits, small charitable events, and rules of conduct but I can't see that there is much power, or money, in those local councils.

[chitowngirl]

Episode 2 is available on Passport if anyone is so inclined… 

[MMEButterfly]

23 hours ago, Cetacean said:

I would have to challenge that statement.  According to the FDA in 2021:   In fact, tobacco use remains the leading preventable cause of disease and death in the United States, leading to more than 480,000 deaths each year. 

Back then, in large Catholic families, at least one of the kids was expected to enter religious life as either a priest or a nun.  I doubt many of them lasted long though.

And at that time there was still the enhanced opportunity for an expensive education. One of my college roommates was still in love with a high school classmate from a poor family who studied for the priesthood and was going for a doctorate. She was certain he would not reject his vows but she was also certain he was still in love with her though they had little communication--just updates through her brother who remained his friend.

 

[LittleIggy]

Wouldn’t the decomposing bodies of those babies have smelled the place up? Even a dead mouse can stink up a whole room (speaking from experience). 🤢

[dubbel zout]

If the neighborhood was smelly enough as is, maybe you could ignore the smell.

It's a TV show; you have to hand wave a lot.

[EllaWycliffe]

Who was going to complain? The mom who put the dead babies into hiding  or the daughter who had two sort of illicit babies?

[susannah]

8 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

Who was going to complain? The mom who put the dead babies into hiding  or the daughter who had two sort of illicit babies?

Right! It did also occur to me to wonder what the man thought happened to the babies he had to know about.

[libgirl2]

35 minutes ago, susannah said:

Right! It did also occur to me to wonder what the man thought happened to the babies he had to know about.

As usual, the man gets off Scott free.

[susannah]

27 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

As usual, the man gets off Scott free.

Yes indeed. I just remember the schoolteacher who was having an affair with a married man. She was at fault too, of course, but when she got pregnant and was thrown out of her boarding house, he wouldn't even take her call for help. She then tried to abort the baby herself and nearly died. I thought the man should have been strung up, since her life was ruined, but again she should have known better than to make that choice. One of the worst guys was in the first season, the guy who fathered 25 children with his Spanish wife, starting when she was very young.  and didn't lift one finger to care for any of them. He should have been shot. Then there was the priest who impregnated his housekeeper, and she put the baby in the trash, which was every kind of wrong. She would always suffer for what she did, and zero consequences for the man.

[anna0852]

2 hours ago, susannah said:

One of the worst guys was in the first season, the guy who fathered 25 children with his Spanish wife, starting when she was very young.  and didn't lift one finger to care for any of them. 

The show didn't really go into it but the book was very clear that Mr. Warren was a very involved parent. Jenny was surprised to find a man regularly cooking, feeding babies, washing and changing nappies. She even noted that he took time off of work for each birth to available in the house. He was always cuddling and playing with his kids.

[LittleIggy]

4 hours ago, EllaWycliffe said:

Who was going to complain? The mom who put the dead babies into hiding  or the daughter who had two sort of illicit babies?

The guys who put the lino down must have smelled something.

[EllaWycliffe]

2 minutes ago, LittleIggy said:

The guys who put the lino down must have smelled something.

"Its a dead rat in the wall." 

People dont always ask a lot of questions. 

[J-Man]

On 3/21/2022 at 2:15 PM, susannah said:

I'm not Catholic, so have no irons in the fire of Catholic belief

I'm pretty sure the Nonnatus nuns are Anglican, not Catholic. 

[susannah]

51 minutes ago, anna0852 said:

The show didn't really go into it but the book was very clear that Mr. Warren was a very involved parent. Jenny was surprised to find a man regularly cooking, feeding babies, washing and changing nappies. She even noted that he took time off of work for each birth to available in the house. He was always cuddling and playing with his kids.

But all I have to go on is what was on the show, and on the show, he didn't so much as change a diaper. Also, whether he was a caring father in the book doesn't mean anything, after impregnating his wife 25 times! He didn't have to carry baby after baby,after baby and give painful birth after painful birth. He was there for the fun part and the huge burden was then placed on his wife.

2 minutes ago, J-Man said:

I'm pretty sure the Nonnatus nuns are Anglican, not Catholic. 

I was referring to Catholic nuns, not the sisters on the show.

[libgirl2]

12 hours ago, anna0852 said:

The show didn't really go into it but the book was very clear that Mr. Warren was a very involved parent. Jenny was surprised to find a man regularly cooking, feeding babies, washing and changing nappies. She even noted that he took time off of work for each birth to available in the house. He was always cuddling and playing with his kids.

I recently reread the first book and you're right. He was very involved in taking care of his children. 

[AZChristian]

16 hours ago, EllaWycliffe said:

Who was going to complain? The mom who put the dead babies into hiding  or the daughter who had two sort of illicit babies?

That smell would have permeated the entire building, not just their flat.  

[EllaWycliffe]

11 hours ago, susannah said:

Also, whether he was a caring father in the book doesn't mean anything, after impregnating his wife 25 times! He didn't have to carry baby after baby,after baby and give painful birth after painful birth. He was there for the fun part and the huge burden was then placed on his wife.

Which was not unusual at the time - the 25th child would have been born in '56 or '57, this was an early story on the show. The family was depicted as Catholic, which means they were still a few years away from ANY birth control and it was forbidden religiously anyway. In the book and on the show, this was indeed considered a caring father providing for a large family, not someone fucking for fun and ignoring the consequences.

I get that we're in a different time now where marrying a woman and having 25 children is problematic because it can have adverse effects on the woman's health but at the time this was happening, how exactly were they supposed to family plan? If they're catholic, (and I recall the mom being spanish so yeah she was probably catholic) then anything other than abstinence and the rhythm method was religiously forbidden. So was having an abortion. In the forties and fifties, having sex with your husband meant having the baby... and the act is fun for both parties so putting all the blame on the husband for impregnation when the marriage was depicted as a happy one both in book and show seems unfair. On the show I never got the impression this was a husband cruelly obsessed with treating his wife like a brood mare for his seed and ruthlessly forcing sex on an unwilling participant. I didn't get a Duggar family obsession with breeding either, more of a "one of the consequences of marriage is babies and we've got a lot of blessings" kind of thing.  It's certainly not something I'd recommend in more modern times but I don't see where the father had any foul intent. He seemed to be a loving caring father making the best of having lots of kids. 

[EllaWycliffe]

30 minutes ago, AZChristian said:

That smell would have permeated the entire building, not just their flat.  

Maybe. But then it would have faded. And remember this was the late 1930s when the babies were hidden. Odors of shit and rot and all around stink were a huge part of the East End.

[AZChristian]

17 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

Maybe. But then it would have faded. And remember this was the late 1930s when the babies were hidden. Odors of shit and rot and all around stink were a huge part of the East End.

All I know about the smell of dead bodies is what I read and see on TV.  Apparently, it's a level of odor that has it's own number on the scale.  Experienced police officers and folks who work with the dead describe it that way.

I just think it's a bit unbelievable that (1) these two prim and proper ladies would live with that smell, and (2) no one else (like the police) would have smelled it and not known what it was.  If nothing else, the ladies would have dumped the second body somewhere else after having to deal with the stench of the first.

[Cetacean]

24 minutes ago, AZChristian said:

Apparently, it's a level of odor that has it's own number on the scale. 

It absolutely does. Stuffing each nostril with Vick's vapor rub barely hides it.  And it gets in your hair and clothes. It's the absolute worst.

[AZChristian]

13 minutes ago, Cetacean said:

It absolutely does. Stuffing each nostril with Vick's vapor rub barely hides it.  And it gets in your hair and clothes. It's the absolute worst.

The reading I've done often mentions the clothes.  Even after the body may stop smelling, it is embedded in any wrappings or clothes.  Both of these babies were wrapped, but no one on the show seemed to react to bad smells; they didn't know they were dead bodies until they saw the bones.  That is totally unrealistic according to what I've read.

[EllaWycliffe]

Right and if they had stuffed two 180 pound adults into the floor boards and wall, the stink would have been overwhelming. 

But we're talking two, at different time intervals, small, 6 to 8 pound infants. Yes, there would be an odor, not one I'd want at all, but after a few weeks the body would be mummified. There's not going to be a stink in 1967 from a baby body put in the walls in 1938. Would the neighbors have noticed? At the time sure but its not a great part of London, so dead rats in the walls and general stink  would have been an easy excuse. We aren't talking a full sized body here. I hate to say "dead baby hidden in the house" has been accomplished before... but it has.

Agree completely that the clean bare bones was kind of silly but I think they were going for effect there.

[caitmcg]

2 hours ago, EllaWycliffe said:

but at the time this was happening, how exactly were they supposed to family plan? If they're catholic, (and I recall the mom being spanish so yeah she was probably catholic) then anything other than abstinence and the rhythm method was religiously forbidden. So was having an abortion. In the forties and the fifties, having sex with your husband meant having the baby...

You just named how Catholics could plan. I mean, it was certainly possible. My Catholic grandparents had five children in the 1940s and ‘50s, deliberately spaced two to three years apart, and I highly doubt they were celibate in between. Non-Catholics had the same lack of resources before reliable contraception was readily available, and managed or didn’t manage. I really don’t think you can say that this couple on the show couldn’t help having 25 children because they were Catholic. Catholic or not, that was an extreme situation even in an era of large Catholic families.

[EllaWycliffe]

I'd actually argue there was no indication the wife was not on board with having children. The original comment i was responding to was suggesting the man in the situation was having his fun and leaving the wife to care for the children with no help from him and no regard from him as to her health, essentially forcing her to be constantly pregnant. But in the book he was a loving husband and father and the mother welcomed having more children and wasn't upset about having another child. Could they have prevented pregnancy? Not in any foolproof way. 25 is unusual but it didn't appear to be happening against the mother's choice.

[susannah]

3 hours ago, EllaWycliffe said:

Which was not unusual at the time - the 25th child would have been born in '56 or '57, this was an early story on the show. The family was depicted as Catholic, which means they were still a few years away from ANY birth control and it was forbidden religiously anyway. In the book and on the show, this was indeed considered a caring father providing for a large family, not someone fucking for fun and ignoring the consequences.

I get that we're in a different time now where marrying a woman and having 25 children is problematic because it can have adverse effects on the woman's health but at the time this was happening, how exactly were they supposed to family plan? If they're catholic, (and I recall the mom being spanish so yeah she was probably catholic) then anything other than abstinence and the rhythm method was religiously forbidden. So was having an abortion. In the forties and fifties, having sex with your husband meant having the baby... and the act is fun for both parties so putting all the blame on the husband for impregnation when the marriage was depicted as a happy one both in book and show seems unfair. On the show I never got the impression this was a husband cruelly obsessed with treating his wife like a brood mare for his seed and ruthlessly forcing sex on an unwilling participant. I didn't get a Duggar family obsession with breeding either, more of a "one of the consequences of marriage is babies and we've got a lot of blessings" kind of thing.  It's certainly not something I'd recommend in more modern times but I don't see where the father had any foul intent. He seemed to be a loving caring father making the best of having lots of kids. 

But you are taking information from the book, NOT the show. The books are different source material, and I imagine not everyone has read them. I have read them and I don't remember that, but that happens now and then! On the show, he didn't do anything to take care of the kids. I remember that one of the babies needed changing and he just stood there and called an older daughter to take care of it. I remember the nuns talking about his bringing his wife from Spain or wherever, and one of them remarked about her young age, inferring that she was too young, which sounded pretty creepy, and then they have one baby after another for decades. It seems to me that he was indifferent to anyone else but his own needs and desires, and certainly to the consequences. Anyone with brains would care that his wife was constantly pregnant, with other babies to care for, and cook and clean. I also highly doubt that the wife enjoyed sex much with being in that constant state and doing all the other work too.

[Ceindreadh]

The bigger issue with the 25 kid family, IIRC, was that the husband never learned to speak Spanish and the wife never learned to speak English, even after all that time together. 

[EllaWycliffe]

Yeah the no one knows each others language and there's 25 kids who speak both Spanish and English......to be honest, in the books I thought this was a possibly exaggerated story. There were a couple stories across the three books where I thought the details were exaggerated.

 

[susannah]

1 hour ago, EllaWycliffe said:

Yeah the no one knows each others language and there's 25 kids who speak both Spanish and English......to be honest, in the books I thought this was a possibly exaggerated story. There were a couple stories across the three books where I thought the details were exaggerated.

 

I don't know how he could keep from learning Spanish, even without trying to, and I really don't know how she would keep from learning English, with the kids and her community all speaking it. I agree that those sound a bit exaggerated.

[Driad]

Maybe someone could find the episode about the family with 25 children, and people could discuss it in that thread?

[MissLucas]

2 minutes ago, Driad said:

Maybe someone could find the episode about the family with 25 children, and people could discuss it in that thread?

It was the first episode of season one - the board does not reach back that far into the past.

[Driad]

Some topics have an "earlier episodes" thread.

[emmawoodhouse]

I found the S1/S2 thread and bumped it. 

[WorldTV]

On 3/22/2022 at 8:57 AM, One Imaginary Girl said:

For the Eurovision curious: it might be on Peacock in May.  I stumbled across it there last year, and it was cheesily enjoyable, although the scoring isn't comprehensible (maybe it was explained earlier during the beginning, which I missed) and the scoring segments are interminable.

For   Europeans (and maybe Australians) the scoring segments are part of the fun.  Countries normally have their own commentators, and the voting has often been very political.  Basically, you can’t vote for your own country’s song.  I remember watching the finals in Italy one year, and it was like watching a soccer match.  Peacock did carry it last year and may this year as well.  In previous years I’ve watched it on non-blocked feeds from Europe, sometimes Swedish or German but more recently San Marino.  Netflix has a Will Ferrell movie that captures a lot of the essence of the competition and features a lot of past performers.

[proserpina65]

On 3/21/2022 at 5:23 AM, Grrarrggh said:

She focused so much on "respectability" because of Britain's obsession with class and the misogyny/C of E hypocrisy of the times. The married guy didn't give a flying fart if she was pregnant with octuplets and hung them off of the Tower Bridge so long as he wasn't involved. And the mother obviously knew, but what was she to do? I think the cop was grateful she didn't have to charge her. It was a tragedy all around and Marigold was as much a victim as the infants. 

I question that Marigold was that much of a victim at the time.  She said the married man took advantage of her but we really have no way of know if that was true.  I wish she has said a little more about their arrangement.  However, clearly she wasn't going to be able to testify in court given her mental state so it would've been pointless to charge her.

On 3/21/2022 at 7:33 AM, JudyObscure said:

This also reminded me of Chummy when we saw how simply bored to tears she was with just "young master" to care for.  The first six months of my son's life were the most  exhausting  days of my life.  I think the writers must believe that SAHM's just watch soaps and eat bonbons all day. 

Different people have different experiences.

On 3/21/2022 at 12:09 PM, susannah said:

What is it with men not liking radishes, Peter didn't like his either.

I like them, but wouldn't just want to eat one plain.

I love the kitschiness of the Eurovision contest, but yeah, the World Cup is History, lol.

[proserpina65]

On 3/21/2022 at 6:41 PM, susannah said:

Tobacco doesn't cause road deaths and injuries, exacerbate child and spouse abuse, poverty, inability to keep jobs/homelessness, or spur criminal activity.

Can we just leave it at smoking is really bad, drinking too much/and driving is bad, and just because one is bad doesn't mean the show can't condemn the other one as bad?  And it's possible to drink in moderation and not cause anyone harm.  One cannot generally say the same for smoking.  Which, as the show pointed out, causes more kinds of cancer than just lung cancer.  Like esophageal cancer, for example, the disease which killed my dad.

On 3/21/2022 at 9:58 PM, caitmcg said:

ABBA won for Sweden, Celine Dion won for Switzerland. I’ve actually never watched Eurovision, I guess I’ve just absorbed some facts by cultural osmosis!

I'm most familiar with it from the episode of Father Ted where Ted and Dougal wrote the song Ireland submitted at its entry, My Lovely Horse.

[EllaWycliffe]

6 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

I love the kitschiness of the Eurovision contest, but yeah, the World Cup is History, lol.

I mean, I can see Sister Julienne's point, although she lets Sister Monica Joan have her way on the tv way too much. 

Hear me out. The world cup was a huge huge deal for everyone in the community, it was a coming together moment where the nation bonded. An argument can be made that the nuns had to participate in order to be part of the community.

I know what Eurovision is, despite being American. It's a talent show. It's a FUN talent show, and competitive but its a solely secular event about popular music and such and its kind of like saying American nuns need to see Elvis on the Ed Sullivan show grinding his hips provocatively  in order to better relate to the community at large. I can see why it pings Sister Julienne's "yeah, no, we're nuns" bell. 

[proserpina65]

On 3/22/2022 at 5:29 PM, LittleIggy said:

Wouldn’t the decomposing bodies of those babies have smelled the place up? Even a dead mouse can stink up a whole room (speaking from experience). 🤢

There are ways of mitigating the smell.  Quicklime for example, which is what is used in the previously referenced A Rose For Emily.

20 hours ago, susannah said:

But you are taking information from the book, NOT the show. The books are different source material, and I imagine not everyone has read them. I have read them and I don't remember that, but that happens now and then! On the show, he didn't do anything to take care of the kids. I remember that one of the babies needed changing and he just stood there and called an older daughter to take care of it. I remember the nuns talking about his bringing his wife from Spain or wherever, and one of them remarked about her young age, inferring that she was too young, which sounded pretty creepy, and then they have one baby after another for decades. It seems to me that he was indifferent to anyone else but his own needs and desires, and certainly to the consequences. Anyone with brains would care that his wife was constantly pregnant, with other babies to care for, and cook and clean. I also highly doubt that the wife enjoyed sex much with being in that constant state and doing all the other work too.

Some of that was in the show.  Not in such detail, but it was there.

[kwnyc]

In recent years, England has consistently received low scores (ZERO in 2021) for its Eurovision entires. This might be a cheeky shout-out to that. Eurovision (despite extending past Europe) is HUGE. The UK hasn't won since 1969 (with pop singer Lulu!)

I wish we did see the scenes that are described above, rather than PBS cutting them for...something. Frequently one of their member drives!

It really was a melancholy episode. I was wondering whether Matthew was gutting the building to turn it into luxury condos, but that didn't come until later. (I saw the sign "Erected in 1764" and wondered whether that might come into play (a landmark?)

I'm just so damn happy the show is back!

ETA: This was my favorite entry in Eurovision 21!

 

Edited March 24, 2022 by kwnyc

[movingtargetgal]

On 3/21/2022 at 3:03 PM, libgirl2 said:

Did you ever see the movie "Where Angels go Trouble Follows" set in a girl's school run by nuns?

"The Trouble with Angels" and "Where Angels go Trouble Follows" are two of my favorite movies.

[Ceindreadh]

4 hours ago, kwnyc said:

In recent years, England has consistently received low scores (ZERO in 2021) for its Eurovision entires. This might be a cheeky shout-out to that. Eurovision (despite extending past Europe) is HUGE. The UK hasn't won since 1969 (with pop singer Lulu!)

The UK won in 1976 with Brotherhood of Man, 1981 with Bucks Fizz and 1997 with Katrina and the Waves.  

[kwnyc]

O, Wikipedia! You have let me down! ;-)

[One Imaginary Girl]

I think there was some reference to their being Anglican when Nancy was brought to Nonnatus House, a differentiation between them and the Catholic nuns.

[caitmcg]

1 hour ago, One Imaginary Girl said:

I think there was some reference to their being Anglican when Nancy was brought to Nonnatus House, a differentiation between them and the Catholic nuns.

The Nonnatus nuns are Anglican, as is the Poplar church that has featured in the series, where Tom was vicar.

[One Imaginary Girl]

Yes, that's what I was saying in reply to the post above mine.

[marceline]

Thanks to my insomnia, I decided to re-watch the episode where we meet the Flemings because I'd forgotten the details of that and, wow, the COVID protocols are all over this. Every conversation between two people indoors happens at least six feet apart even when there's absolutely no reason for it. Or scenes that take place in close quarters are obviously shot in a way where you can tell the actors aren't inhabiting the space at the same time. It's quite a reminder of how far we've come during the pandemic and how hard the cast and crew worked to bring us this show.

[Badger]

I noticed the actors playing the Flemings touched a lot so I wondered if they are a couple in real life.  I know they can get around COVID protocols by having people quarantine or bubble together.  

 

[Cetacean]

3 minutes ago, Badger said:

I know they can get around COVID protocols by having people quarantine or bubble together. 

They did that with the Great British Baking Shows.  Everyone moved into a hotel for the run of the filming, even the crew. No one left until it was in the can.

[elle]

On 3/21/2022 at 1:28 PM, Daff said:

OMG, don’t get me started! One of my all time, favorite movies! I’m convinced the road trip scenes informed those written for Sister Act 2!

With the great Mary Wickes as a nun in both sets of movies!