S01.E04: Partners, Am I Right?

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

Secrets are revealed and hard truths emerge, culminating in a battle against two opposing forces.

Dropping Wednesday, December 8, 2021.

[AnimeMania]

Looks like Clint forgot to get the Avengers Rolex Watch.

[paigow]

Title: Partners, Am I Right?

Yelena could have just shot Clint instead of engaging hand to hand with a known expert.... WTF???

The Barton farmhouse is a fully functioning SHIELD / Stark site. Laura has satellite tracking access and a better criminal database... 

Edited December 8, 2021 by paigow

[Bill1978]

Should I know the back story to the Rolex watch?

I really do enjoy this show when it's just Kate and Clint bantering and getting to know each other. And Kate really is gonna give as Hawkeye in his purple outfit isn't she?

I honestly don't care about the whole organised crime thing. And this isn't just a Hawkeye issue, it's just me in general. For me this show is far more engaging without the plot of the crime syndicate - although I understand plot wise why they need it. And I know people are excited about the potential for a certain character to appear but I was super excited when finally the end credit scene from Black Widow finally appeared.

Also, they have 2 episodes left to make me care enough about Echo that I will tune into her spin off show. At the moment my care factor about her story is about zero and I have no interest in following her story beyond this series.

[arc]

22 minutes ago, Bill1978 said:

Should I know the back story to the Rolex watch?

Pretty sure it was invented for this show. But if I can speculate, it sure seems like Laura Barton was a super-spy herself. She's too chill about Clint's adventures, and she can switch into German (?) just like that, and being fluent in any language than English is high key unusual for many (non-immigrant) Americans. So that Rolex somehow ties to unmasking her.

Speaking of secrets though, Kate is almost absurdly sanguine about a bunch of random LARPers who are also law enforcement knowing she's basically the next Hawkeye. I know the MCU mostly does not care about secret identities esp compared to the comics but it's still a trip.

[Humbugged]

3 hours ago, paigow said:

Title: Partners, Am I Right?

Yelena could have just shot Clint instead of engaging hand to hand with a known expert.... WTF???

The Barton farmhouse is a fully functioning SHIELD / Stark site. Laura has satellite tracking access and a better criminal database... 

We don't know that killing him is her mission

Edited December 8, 2021 by Humbugged

[arc]

Laura may have a better database than Eleanor/Bishop Security, but it still feels hinky that Eleanor wouldn’t know that Jack heads up a money laundering operation. Add it to the “Eleanor is shady herself” file.

With how closely tied Jack is to the Tracksuit Mafia, it’s interesting the latter robbed the auction back in ep 1. Maybe they knew Jack couldn’t afford to outbid everyone else for the Rolex.

The conversation in the apartment about the Ronin persona and Clint’s actual job was very emotional. I feel like the MCU movies have mostly glossed over that he was an assassin before he put those same skills to use as a superhero. And of course “I was a weapon” ties to the Fraction comic “My Life As A Weapon”. And (paraphrased from memory) “the right people aimed me at the right targets” juxtaposes with his self-chosen rebrand during the five year gap as “the Ronin”, the term for masterless samurai. I wonder if we’ll get into that choice. SHIELD and/or the Avengers still existed after the Snap. Clint chose to go on a murder spree. He wasn’t really “masterless” the way historical ronin were, esp since his master was an organization, not a single individual.

Why did Kate have so much trouble zip-lining out of the apartment, but Maya made it in one go?

[Spartan Girl]

I honestly only watched this show for the musical number and Yelena. Happy to see her back, but I’m indifferent on everything else.

I’m 100 percent sure Eleanor is the shock villain/puppet master.

Edited December 8, 2021 by Spartan Girl

[Ailianna]

58 minutes ago, arc said:

He wasn’t really “masterless” the way historical ronin were, esp since his master was an organization, not a single individual.

I don't know if his loyalty was to SHIELD, though, or to certain people within SHIELD. Fury, Hill, Colson. Certainly Natasha as she climbed higher than he did. But I'm not sure from what we saw and see about how he processes the world, that he has any "institutional" loyalty left. He's seen too many bad organizations and even SHIELD turned out to be bad (and gone well before the Snap). I think he trusts certain people, and without them, he may not feel able to aim himself at the "right" targets. He can obviously aim himself, but from his point of view, now, was he aiming at the "right" targets during those years? I think now his answer is no. But his number one "master" is back--his family. So his aim is improving.

[tv echo]

I think I'm jumping on the train that Kate's father is alive and that Kate's mother is in communication with him.  They may actually be the ones playing Jack for some reason and setting him up to take the fall for something.

Clint's story about when he was sent to kill Natasha and couldn't do it was really touching. Also his conversation with Kate about Ronin. I like that he has no illusions about who he was and what he did.

It's Yelena! 

I'm starting to wonder if Clint will survive this series. I always assumed that he would and that he would make it home in time for Christmas. But now I'm beginning to wonder.

ETA: Marvel recap of this episode:
‘Hawkeye’: Episode 4 Rundown, Bro
BY RACHEL PAIGE    December 8, 2021
https://www.marvel.com/articles/tv-shows/hawkeye-episode-4-rundown 

Edited December 8, 2021 by tv echo

[cambridgeguy]

3 hours ago, paigow said:

Yelena could have just shot Clint instead of engaging hand to hand with a known expert.... WTF???

Even if she is just trying to kill him this is a personal mission, so she probably wants to beat him up first.  Plus Yelena is probably confident enough to believe she can handle someone she thinks of as a busted old man.

Kate may want to invest in a mask.  And while she's right about the bow being a pain to carry around the quiver full of arrows is also a bit of an eyebrow raiser.   When all of this is over they'll want to stop by Stark Industries and get some of that nanotech that will allow them to magically create whatever they want.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

59 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

Even if she is just trying to kill him this is a personal mission, so she probably wants to beat him up first.  Plus Yelena is probably confident enough to believe she can handle someone she thinks of as a busted old man.

And as I surmised earlier, he has no idea who Yelena is. He recognizes that she's a Widow, but not that Natasha was her sister and thinks he killed her. He told Kate that someone hired her, which is true (hi, Val) but that it's more than a paycheck. With only two episodes left, he probably won't get as much time to explain to her what really happened, but I'm wondering if Yelena will have words for the Countess, because I can't see her finding it amusing that she was being manipulated through her angry grief for Nat.

I also liked the callback when Kate was asking Clint to pull her up, because you could see he was trying to let her out of the mess she was in, even if she created it herself accidentally. I may have even gotten misty-eyed when he was talking about the shot he didn't take, that he helped Natasha get out because he saw that was what she wanted. And that sometimes when he closes his eyes, he still sees her push off from the cliff at Vormir. Of all the lives he took, it's the one he spared that haunts him the most.

 

1 hour ago, tv echo said:

I think I'm jumping on the train that Kate's father is alive and that Kate's mother is in communication with him.  They may actually be the ones playing Jack for some reason and setting him up to take the fall for something.

Eleanor was on the phone with someone she knew, for sure. It went to voicemail or whatever, but she was really familiar in saying, Call me back. It's important. If Jack is the CEO of a money laundering operation, though, why did Armand call him out for being broke in the first episode? Because I don't think Jack is employed by or involved with her business, just his own. I'd be surprised if he wasn't skimming, since that's usually the case in stories like this. Someone gets over-confident, starts trying to get away with more of what they're already getting away with.

I'm also wondering a tiny bit about Clint's survival odds. He told Kazi that if Maya didn't stop, her need for revenge was going to get her killed, but the only reason she gave up the field in the episode is because Kate managed to get back on the roof. Now Yelena's on the scene, and even though her involvement is based on deception and half-truths, she's equally motivated on a personal level. Curious to see how or if he gets to tell her the truth.

[Fool to cry]

I love the set up of "The best shot was the one I didn't take" for Yelena's appearance.

I definitely thought Kate's mom called Val. 

Linda Cardellini speaking German was something I didn't think I wanted until now, so thanks Hawkeye writers!

[Racj82]

4 hours ago, tv echo said:

I think I'm jumping on the train that Kate's father is alive and that Kate's mother is in communication with him.  They may actually be the ones playing Jack for some reason and setting him up to take the fall for something.

Clint's story about when he was sent to kill Natasha and couldn't do it was really touching. Also his conversation with Kate about Ronin. I like that he has no illusions about who he was and what he did.

It's Yelena! 

I'm starting to wonder if Clint will survive this series. I always assumed that he would and that he would make it home in time for Christmas. But now I'm beginning to wonder.

ETA: Marvel recap of this episode:
‘Hawkeye’: Episode 4 Rundown, Bro
BY RACHEL PAIGE    December 8, 2021
https://www.marvel.com/articles/tv-shows/hawkeye-episode-4-rundown 

I can bet every bit of money I posses that they are not going to kill off Clint. .. during Christmas....after he just got his family back ... on Disney Plus. Zero percent chance of that happening.

I don't think Laura is former spy. I think Clint has been upfront with her the whole time. As such, she has trained and learned herself to be able to protect the family and communicate with Clint when need be. He won't be able to freely talk all the time. Them both being able to communicate in different languages help with that.

[thuganomics85]

With all of the extra talk about Natasha and Clint's past with her (and the grief he still carries over her death), I figured this was going to be the episode where Yelena crashes the party!  Always great seeing Florence Pugh, even though Yelena wearing a mask for most of the fight clearly means we actually saw more of her stunt performer instead this go around.  But I'm curious to see where this goes and if she will ever figure out the actual truth, instead of whatever misleads or flat-out lies Valentina Allegra de Fontaine fed her (I wonder if she'll make an appearance as well?)  Also unless he's just trying to cover for her, it sounds like Clint isn't aware of Yelena's existence and thinks that someone simply hired a Black Widow to hunt him down.  Should make for an interesting reunion/round 2!

Clint and Kate awkward conversation with "the parents" was fun.  Even though I still don't trust either one of them, I do think Eleanor and Jack were actually legitimately excited over getting to "host an Avenger."  But it sounds like Clint has solid proof now that Jack is funneling money to the Tracksuit Mafia through the company.  Which, again, makes me think he's just going to either be part of the cog or the patsy, and Eleanor will end up being the true villain.  Maybe they'll surprise me!

Knew the LARP folks would come back into play, but I wasn't expecting them to potentially be the costume designers for some hopefully new outfits for Clint and Kate.  But that embroidered bag that one of the LARPers gave them is so doomed, right?

Kate continues to be right that Clint/Hawkeye has a branding issue when freaking Thanos of all people has a coffee mug made in his name (I believe the mug said "Thanos Was Right.")  To be fair, I don't find it all that unbelievable that some in the MCU would be fans of his: ironically or not.

Laura is showing herself to be a woman of many skills as well.  No wonder she and Clint seem like such a power couple!

Hopefully Clint's whole "You have to stay away from me now, Kate, because I don't want to lose you as well!" story won't go on for too long, since the interplay between Jeremy Renner and Hailee Steinfeld continues to be the highpoint of the series.

Edited December 8, 2021 by thuganomics85

[wlk68]

On 12/8/2021 at 7:19 AM, tv echo said:

Clint's story about when he was sent to kill Natasha and couldn't do it was really touching. Also his conversation with Kate about Ronin. I like that he has no illusions about who he was and what he did.

I was coming here to say pretty much this exact thing. The whole "I was a weapon" speech is spot on. As much as I'm enjoying the action and the humor I'm also really enjoying the quiet introspective moments. 

I thought it was sweet that Kate tried to give Clint some of what he is missing by being away from home. The ugly sweaters and the movies, etc.

Edited December 9, 2021 by wlk68

[WildPlum]

11 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

Laura is showing herself to be a woman of many skills as well.  No wonder she and Clint seem like such a power couple!

There has been no real hint of how Clint came to work for SHIELD or what his background prior was. There are two comic book versions (the Main 616 Marvel Universe and the Ultimates universe) but neither is likely here.

Laura's background has likewise been an equal blank. I THINK, back in one of the Avengers movies, Clint says something that implies that having a safe house and Laura's identity kept secret was a requirement for joining SHIELD, so his association with Laura likely predates SHIELD. Which, given that SHIELD was full of HYDRA, turned out to be a good move.

[tennisgurl]

Yelena! I was worried she would only show up in the last episode so I might have squeed a bit when I realized that the clearly female assassin that was fighting Clint wasn't Maya. I love Yelena so I hope that she and Clint can figure things out before the last episode, I would love it if they could bond over their shared grief over losing Natasha. Of course with all of the talk about Natasha and Clint's past with her I should have known Yelena would show up now. She is going to be super pissed when she realizes that the Countess tried to use her grief to manipulate her into killing her sisters best friend. No way do I think that the show will kill Clint off, not after getting his family back, on Christmas, its too cruel. I can however see him going into official retirement to be with his family and him officially passing the Hawkeye mantle to Kate, being a mentor to her. 

Normally Yelena would have probably put an arrow in her targets head from a distance, but this time its personal, she wants to let Clint know before she kills him why she's doing this, which is also presumably how Clint will find out that this isn't just some Widow who's been paid to kill him, but Natasha's sister. Did Natasha ever tell Clint about her Russian family, or is this going to be a complete surprise? I am guessing not as he hasn't mentioned them and Nat apparently never said anything to the other Avengers, but maybe it was top secret between the two of them? It seems like he has no idea who she is, but he wouldn't know why Natasha's sister would even want to kill him even if he knows she exists somewhere.

Before shit got real, this episode was just filled to the brim with adorable holiday cheer and a lot of really nice moments of quiet reflection. Kate trying to give Clint a fun night of Christmas because he cant be with his family was really sweet, with the tree and the Christmas sweaters and pizza dog wearing adorable antlers (awww) it was so great seeing them bonding, even knowing that all of the warm fuzzies meant that it would probably go badly soon. Sure enough, he freaks out that Kate could be caught in the crossfire if a Black Widow is trying to kill him so he tells her to leave, and while Kate is upset she seems to be doing so...until the next episode presumably. I don't want them to be separated for too long, their chemistry is the best part of the show. 

Clint's conversation with Kate about meeting Natasha and the "one shot he didn't take" and then about his time as Ronin were really good. I like that he very much knows that what he did was horrible and coming from a really bad place. He really showed a lot of introspect about his past as a "weapon who was pointed at the right people until he wasn't" and its one of the reasons I really enjoy that they are doing this show with him. Clint has always been a bit in the background, being one of the more grounded Avengers (which is a plot point in and of itself) so I really like seeing how he ticks and how he is coping with everything that has happened. You can also really see why he and Natasha bonded so much, as that's how she looked at herself as well. 

I figured we would see the LARP gang again, but I didn't expect them to help find all of Clint's arrows. I wonder if they will show up again, their interactions with Kate are already gold. "They're colorful." 

I suppose being married to a super spy/hero means that you gather up quite a few skills, such as investigating and speaking German to be able to speak privately, Laura certainly is a woman of many skills. Linda Cardellini certainly is making the most of her time doing phone conversations. 

[paigow]

Yelena is using the Dollar Tree shock discs... if the target can simply pull them off without paralysis or blacking out... why bother????

[calliope1975]

I could see a fake out death allowing Clint to retire in anonymity, but I really hope he's not killed off, and I don't think the show would go there with the tone it's had generally. 

[Minneapple]

I love Kate. She's just so upbeat and fun. I loved her going over to Clint's with all the Christmas stuff, making friends with the LARPers. She looked like a kicked puppy when Clint told her they were never partners and to go home, and I wanted to give her a hug.

Yelena! Yay!

[paigow]

4 hours ago, calliope1975 said:

I could see a fake out death allowing Clint to retire in anonymity

Yelena would have to be in on it.

7 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

and speaking German to be able to speak privately, Laura certainly is

Descended from Zola or Von Strucker...

[Sakura12]

Yelena! I was wondering when she'd show up. Yeah I don't think she just wants to kill him, she wants to him to suffer for killing her sister. She's playing with him now. 

Kate and Clint have a great friendship chemistry and I love it. He's annoyed, impressed and worried about her. She will be a good successor. 

Does Jack know that Clint stole the sword. I gues he can't say anything since he stole it. And Elenor called someone, Val, her not dead husband, Kingpin? 

Laura seems to know a lot about what's going on. I'm thinking her '"ice them if you have too" wasnt about Clint icing his wounds. I think she was a spy that defected and that's who Clint was talking about not Nat. 

Also why was Yelena dressed like Night Monkey. 

[wlk68]

5 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

You can also really see why he and Natasha bonded so much, as that's how she looked at herself as well. 

Yes, absolutely. She said a number of times that she had red in her ledger. 

[arc]

Why did Clint receive Kate’s text on an old flip phone in ep 2 but text Laura from a modern smartphone? Did he give Kate the number of his burner? I guess he also answered his son’s call last ep on the same smartphone so I should have noticed it then.

[calliope1975]

I just read a theory that the watch

Spoiler

is Laura's and she was Mockingbird.

I like this speculation and would like more. Thanks.

[AimingforYoko]

8 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

I just read a theory that the watch

  Reveal spoiler

is Laura's and she was Mockingbird.

I like this speculation and would like more. Thanks.

Spoiler

If it means that Mockingbird is a call sign handed down, like say to Adrianne Palicki's Bobbi Morse, I'm all for it.

 

[128survivor]

14 hours ago, Bill1978 said:

Should I know the back story to the Rolex watch?

I really do enjoy this show when it's just Kate and Clint bantering and getting to know each other. And Kate really is gonna give as Hawkeye in his purple outfit isn't she?

I honestly don't care about the whole organised crime thing. And this isn't just a Hawkeye issue, it's just me in general. For me this show is far more engaging without the plot of the crime syndicate - although I understand plot wise why they need it. And I know people are excited about the potential for a certain character to appear but I was super excited when finally the end credit scene from Black Widow finally appeared.

Also, they have 2 episodes left to make me care enough about Echo that I will tune into her spin off show. At the moment my care factor about her story is about zero and I have no interest in following her story beyond this series.

Echo is getting a spin off ? 

[calliope1975]

21 minutes ago, AimingforYoko said:

Spoiler

If it means that Mockingbird is a call sign handed down, like say to Adrianne Palicki's Bobbi Morse, I'm all for it.

 

Spoiler

Yeah I know it doesn't jive with AOS, but I like the idea of a handed down call sign, too.

It's also probably just fans making stuff up. Watch Laura be Mephisto!

I also just remembered they still haven't tied the watch to Pizza Dog. Unless he just has a fine appreciation of time wear or there are treats hidden inside for a Good Boy.

Edited December 9, 2021 by calliope1975

[Cobalt Stargazer]

2 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Laura seems to know a lot about what's going on. I'm thinking her '"ice them if you have too" wasnt about Clint icing his wounds. I think she was a spy that defected and that's who Clint was talking about not Nat.

Yeah, it wasn't just the German, Clint and Laura were using coded language when she told him about Jack being a money launderer. Even if she was doing it to keep the kids in the dark about what was going on, which would be weird anyway since they seem to be well aware of their dad's job as an agent and then as as Avenger, she fell into using the 'in the know' jargon pretty easily.

3 hours ago, paigow said:

Yelena would have to be in on it.

I could see her agreeing to that, actually. Clint's being targeted for reasons that have nothing to do with Natasha, IMO, and Yelena's being taken advantage of by her new employer. If Barton does retire completely after this, she might well consider it a debt she owes to help him disappear so he and his family can be safe.
 

1 hour ago, arc said:

Why did Clint receive Kate’s text on an old flip phone in ep 2 but text Laura from a modern smartphone? Did he give Kate the number of his burner? I guess he also answered his son’s call last ep on the same smartphone so I should have noticed it then.

He probably did give her the burner number. In the episode where that happened, he told her to only contact him in an emergency, and she was still chattering at his retreating back as he walked away. At that point, all he wanted was to resolve the situation and get shut of her, so he wouldn't have offered her his private phone number.

[Sakura12]

52 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

I just read a theory that the watch

  Reveal spoiler

is Laura's and she was Mockingbird.

I like this speculation and would like more. Thanks.

I can see

Mockingbird being a call sign and Laura retired to have kids and Bobbi took the name.

[SnarkShark]

Okay, theyre REALLY running low on screen time for all of the necessary reveals:

 

Kingpin is Uncle.

Kingpin either had Maya's dad killed with an imposter or manipulated the real Ronin into it. Maya is made to believe this.

Yelena gets convinced Clint didn't kill Natasha.

The almost certainty at this point that Kate's Mom is just as involved as the scummy fiance (her reactions are just too bizarre for anything else).  Dealing with the fallout from said reveal.

Who the watch belongs to.

Done by Christmas Day.

2 episodes and less than 2 days in show, probably less than 90 minutes of screentime, thats a lot to need to happen, plus at least one more major fight scene, possibly two.

There's almost certainly got to be a payoff for the very deliberate setup of Kate not shooting Yelena. A conversation, either scornful that she's not meant for this, or the reverse where she doesn't kill Kate in payback.  So that's a fight and a convo we 100% have to fit in too.

It IS clear that Kate's mom's call summoned Yelena.  Indirectly, I'd bet.  I'm thinking she called a fellow criminal, Val.

 

Edited December 9, 2021 by SnarkShark

[SnarkShark]

1 hour ago, calliope1975 said:

I just read a theory that the watch

  Reveal spoiler

is Laura's and she was Mockingbird.

I like this speculation and would like more. Thanks.

While possible, it may just be an unnecessary complication, and this person could be any former spy and/or SHIELD agent and/or escaped Widow, and/or reformed HYDRA agent, or lots of other things.  The codename is just an unnecessary complication they may not need to service. 

[Zonk]

Man either I'm a bit slow or this show is really good in pointing the other way. Kate's mother is the bad guy, isn't she? She was in a fight with the dead guy. She had motive to murder him. And this episode she did her best to discourage her daughters and hawkeyes investigation into the matter. The weird fiance probably doesn't even know about it and is just a red hering or even a patsy.

16 hours ago, arc said:

She's too chill about Clint's adventures, and she can switch into German (?) just like that, and being fluent in any language than English is high key unusual for many (non-immigrant) Americans.

I mean I wouldn't call it fluid. It was supposed to be german, but so hard to understand, I had to read the english subtitles to get what she was saying and I'm a native german speaker...

It wasn't even just the pronounciation. After listening to the words 10 times I think I can make out what she was saying: "Verschwinde noch mehr auf dem Gelände?" Those words are in the wrong order and/or in the wrong tense. Correct would be "Ist noch mehr auf dem Gelände verschwunden?".

You could technically also say "Verschwand noch mehr auf dem Gelände?", but the first word she says is clearly "verschwinde" and not "verschwand", also that is one tense further in the past (sadly don't know what it's called, since I'm bad at grammar) and no german would use it in conversation.

Also going from the english subtitles, the more correct translation would be "Ist noch etwas anderes vom Gelände verschwunden?" or "Ist noch mehr vom Gelände verschwunden?"

Since it's items and not people I might even use "Ist noch mehr vom Gelände verloren gegangen?" ("verloren gegangen" would also be a word for word translation of "gone missing") But at this point I'm nitpicking.

24 minutes ago, SnarkShark said:

Kingpin is Uncle.

I think if anybody in this is kingpin it's Kate's mother.

But with Charlie Cox coming back into the MCU as Daredevil, maybe they'll reuse that kingpin as well.

Edited December 9, 2021 by Zonk

[SnarkShark]

2 minutes ago, Zonk said:

I think if anybody in this is kingpin it's Kate's mother.

But with Charlie Cox coming back into the MCU as Daredevil, maybe they'll reuse that kingpin as well.

We already saw his hand and heard his chuckle.

Certainly he's peripheral.  Maya is not working for the person associated with Yelena.  She's working for her Uncle, but carrying out an unauthorized vendetta. Yelena and her being in the same place was clearly an alliance of chance or of the moment.

The "boss" here is whoever was running that auction.  The track suits are an opposing side.

[Zonk]

2 minutes ago, SnarkShark said:

We already saw his hand and heard his chuckle.

Must have missed that. Can you point me to when in which episode?

3 minutes ago, SnarkShark said:

Maya is not working for the person associated with Yelena.  She's working for her Uncle, but carrying out an unauthorized vendetta. Yelena and her being in the same place was clearly an alliance of chance or of the moment.

That much is clear. Also it wasn't an alliance. They traded blows a few times. It was an all out brawl.

But what does that have to do with kingpin?

4 minutes ago, SnarkShark said:

The "boss" here is whoever was running that auction.  The track suits are an opposing side.

Yep and I'm pretty sure the boss is Kate's mom. She may not be kingpin, but she's the big bad of the season, I'm 90% convinced.

[SnarkShark]

1 hour ago, Zonk said:

Must have missed that. Can you point me to when in which episode?

That much is clear. Also it wasn't an alliance. They traded blows a few times. It was an all out brawl.

But what does that have to do with kingpin?

Yep and I'm pretty sure the boss is Kate's mom. She may not be kingpin, but she's the big bad of the season, I'm 90% convinced.

You were just misusing Kingpin.  Its not a description of a type of person with Marvel. Its a specific person, Wilson Fisk.

So we're forced to use other phrases to describe other criminal bosses.

1 hour ago, Zonk said:

Must have missed that. Can you point me to when in which episode?

When Maya is a child, in Karate class, and her father says Uncle will take her home, we see Uncle's suited arm and his hand pinching her cheek.  It's almost unquestionably Vincent D'Onofrio's hand, which is reasonably distinctive looking, and the chuckle we hear is identical to how he's laughed many times on film.  There are no doubt side by sides on YouTube somewhere, demonstrating both of these.

Plus, Kingpin has a similar (not identical) relationship to her in the comics.

[paigow]

42 minutes ago, SnarkShark said:

Plus, Kingpin has a similar (not identical) relationship to her in the comics.

Did comic Kingpin shaft her by not paying for deaf school??? 

[Racj82]

Was Laura talking in code with the ice comments? Ice (kill) everything. Was she giving the go ahead to go full Ronin if need be?

[Zuleikha]

I'm not sure why the show thinks we'd be interested in more of Echo based on what we're getting out of Hawkeye. She's pretty bland at this point, and as a secondary antagonist with so few episodes left, it's hard to see how she's going to pop. I'm also confused by whether she has her comic-book counterpart's mimicking abilities. If so, the show hasn't made that clear. 

I expected that Marvel greenlighting a TV show with an inexperienced actress as lead meant she was going to be grab the screen from moment 1. But as it is, I don't care if I see more of her or not. I'm more interested in the LARPers.

I appreciate that the show is one long eulogy for Natasha. It's nice to see her character get what she deserves. They're doing right by Hawkeye, too. Renner's done a great job with everything. Hawkeye finally feels like a real character to me.

The show has to be careful with Kate. Her vibrancy and peppy optimism is a great counterbalance for Hawkeye, but her going off on her own in the apartment was irritating. She's a character who's obviously going to walk a line between lovable and hateable, and I think it was a poor writing choice to have her be so annoying in that sequence.

The show's been very scattered with plot, but somehow it continues to work for me.

[Jediknight]

9 minutes ago, Racj82 said:

Was Laura talking in code with the ice comments? Ice (kill) everything. Was she giving the go ahead to go full Ronin if need be?

Nah, I think she was just reminding him to ice his body.  Dude's a normal person who's been through countless battles, his body is in bad shape.  Laura knows that, and is reminding him to ice up.

[Racj82]

3 minutes ago, Jediknight said:

Nah, I think she was just reminding him to ice his body.  Dude's a normal person who's been through countless battles, his body is in bad shape.  Laura knows that, and is reminding him to ice up.

Someone brought up the theory and I was just floating out there. She also doesn't need to remind him. We've seen that. Obviously this can just be a casual exchange from spouse. What stuck out to me was the ice your feet part at the end. That wasn't necessary at all in the moment. The wording felt off. Pointing towards a particular part of the body when she already said ice yourself. She had also been talking in code various times throughout the conversation. The assumption is that she dropped the code once the daughter figured out what was going on. But, maybe she didn't. It's just food for thought.

[AnimeMania]

I am guessing her mom gave her back access to her credit cards. It must have been a rough two days. Kate still hasn't made time to talk to the police.

[paigow]

NYPD got distracted by having to close down a bridge and an intersection with no traffic lights....

2 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

Kate still hasn't made time to talk to the police.

 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

9 hours ago, paigow said:

Did comic Kingpin shaft her by not paying for deaf school??? 

Info dump on Maya:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echo_(Marvel_Comics)

 

 

6 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

The show has to be careful with Kate. Her vibrancy and peppy optimism is a great counterbalance for Hawkeye, but her going off on her own in the apartment was irritating. She's a character who's obviously going to walk a line between lovable and hateable, and I think it was a poor writing choice to have her be so annoying in that sequence.

It's more like a tendency to be overconfident and get ahead of herself, and Hawkeye says as much to her in the episode where she tried to 'save' him from the tracksuit guys. She thinks she can handle anything that gets thrown at her, but she's young and inexperienced even if she is good at the archery and stuff. One thing Eleanor isn't wrong about is that what her daughter is getting into is very dangerous, it's just that Kate can't really see that yet.

[Kate47]

7 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

The show has to be careful with Kate. Her vibrancy and peppy optimism is a great counterbalance for Hawkeye, but her going off on her own in the apartment was irritating. 

Dang, Cobalt pretty much posted what I was going to say, but you can definitely tell that Kate is still in the phase where everything superhero is the coolest and most fun. She shrugs off Clint's comment about loss in the diner and I think the convo about Nat and Ronin is where it starts setting in that this has real stakes. But to be honest, I think that won't hit for her until she actually experiences it--right now she's still a dewy eyed 22 year old on her first adventure and thinks she's untouchable.

Edited December 9, 2021 by Kate47
Clarification

[arc]

"[The arrows] are in an NYPD facility down by the bridge"

There are 21 bridges in Manhattan, Clint!

[paigow]

1 minute ago, arc said:

There are 21 bridges in Manhattan, Clint!

And Chadwick Boseman closed ALL of them...

[AimingforYoko]

You know you want it.

[Guest]

13 hours ago, Kate47 said:

She shrugs off Clint's comment about loss in the diner and I think the convo about Nat and Ronin is where it starts setting in that this has real stakes. But to be honest, I think that won't hit for her until she actually experiences it--right now she's still a dewy eyed 22 year old on her first adventure and thinks she's untouchable.

She was literally at ground zero for the Battle of New York so I don’t think it’s accurate to say she doesn’t understand the real stakes or hasn’t experienced loss. She seems more like the type who responded to loss by needing to be in control and protect others. It’s not that she doesn’t know any better but that she knows exactly what it feels like to be helpless.