S05.E07: Expired

[helenamonster]

Quote

Shaun and Lea happen upon a terrible car accident and discover a young pregnant mother who has been badly injured and needs immediate medical attention. Dr. Glassman is apprehensive when a figure from his past reaches out for help.

Original airdate: 11/22/21

[greekmom]

Satan is a bitch.  I wish Lim would have quit right there and then.

Actually I am wishing the whole staff would stage a protest/strike against Satan's changes.

 

[Annber03]

...well, then. That was...intense.

I had a feeling something would go wrong with that case, both because of Shaun's reaction in the promo for this episode and because we've had so many happy endings for patients lately, it was only a matter of time before one would end tragically. The fact that Shaun and Lea had their own experience losing a baby not so long ago certainly didn't help matters, either. 

If Glassman is now deciding to stay because of what his first wife had said to him, he's certainly picked a good time to do so, 'cause she's right. Shaun's gonna need him now more than ever. I'm glad he seems to have his confidence back now, so I hope he does stay around, both for Shaun's sake and in general. 

As for Salen, yeeeeeeeeeeah, this is gonna get REAL ugly, REAL fast, if it hasn't already. Lim is absolutely right to be incredibly pissed off with her, and I liked her confronting her like she did. Somebody needs to warn Andrews fast, before he makes any further mistakes with whatever this relationship is that he has going on with her. 

I'm also glad that Lea owned up to what she'd done with Shaun's scores and stuff, but I'm not surprised at Shaun's reaction. He's right to be angry, and he's also right that she needs to face whatever potential consequences come from what she's done.

So. On that not-even-remotely cheery note, until spring, then!

[statsgirl]

I'm glad that Glassman seems to be getting his groove back. Lewy body is an especially nasty form of dementia so that was a doubly happy story.

Lea, on the other hand, seems to be having increasing problems dealing with Shaun.

If Salen didn't order the pharmacy to use expired drugs, the expired medication problem is on the chief pharmacist's head. And even if she did, it's still the pharmacist's responsibility for not reporting her.

[preeya]

Very intense episode of which there will be further ramifications,

BUT,

it may have been Freddie's Emmy winning performance.

Edited November 23, 2021 by preeya

[TheGreenKnight]

Going by the preview for the next episode, I have a feeling Lea deleting Shaun's patient ratings will be one more thing Salen uses to throw him under the bus to deflect blame from herself.

[Good Queen Jane]

The scene in the pharmacy was intense and Freddy Highmore really brought it, but I wish he hadn't gone through the drugs saying "Expired! Expired!" It reminded me of that insurance commercial where the aunt does the same thing with food in the refrigerator. It really took me out of what was a well acted meltdown.

[meira.hand]

Glassman's remark at the beginning was the best: "Salen and Andrews? They may have one soul between them."

[Zonk]

Would this drug having been expired really changed anything in its effectiveness? Usually expire dates on drugs are completely arbitrary and they work just fine for years after. Plus it can't have been expired for long, right?

It seems a bit (a lot) far fetched.

Anybody know this particular drug and can weigh in?

[Good Queen Jane]

9 minutes ago, Zonk said:

Would this drug having been expired really changed anything in its effectiveness? Usually expire dates on drugs are completely arbitrary and they work just fine for years after. Plus it can't have been expired for long, right?

It seems a bit (a lot) far fetched.

Anybody know this particular drug and can weigh in?

You want realism in a show where a C-section is done and a premature baby is treated by a general surgeon without an obstetrician or pediatrician in sight? Apparently Salen's budget cuts have eliminated most of the doctors one would expect to see in a hospital of the size of St. Bonaventure.

[Zonk]

2 minutes ago, Good Queen Jane said:

You want realism in a show where a C-section is done and a premature baby is treated by a general surgeon without an obstetrician or pediatrician in sight? Apparently Salen's budget cuts have eliminated most of the doctors one would expect to see in a hospital of the size of St. Bonaventure.

Yes, pretty please. I guess wondering about the expired medication took up most of my brain space. Well that and browsing the web because I was kinda bored, considering it was clear the baby would die. But you are right, that is another strike.

[Driad]

The baby had patent ductus arteriosus if I heard correctly.  Could they have diagnosed this by prenatal testing?  Would the premature baby's small size make prenatal diagnosis more difficult?  Might an obstetrician, if available, have been more likely to diagnose it?

[tennisgurl]

That's certainly a cheerful note to end on, I figured we were due for a tragic ending after so many happy ones, but that was still a real gut punch. Especially after Shaun bonded with the mother to be, and to lose the baby over something so stupid and preventable, and so soon after Shaun and Lea lost their own baby, no wonder Shaun lost it. The parents of the baby should really should sue, they lost their daughter due to negligence on the part of the hospital, especially the pharmacy and Selen's budget cuts, but now it looks like Salen is already going into damage control mode. Loved Lim calling her out, rightfully pissed off that they lost a baby just because they didn't get refills in time, there are definitely going to be big repercussions. 

This is definitely going to be Freddy's Emmy submission. 

Its good that Lea told Shaun the truth, but I don't at all blame Shaun for being pissed off. He has every right to be angry, Shaun has always disliked being treated different and now he's getting it from his own fiancé. Plus, i can very easily see this causing big problems in the future if Salen finds out what she did.

Its been awhile since I so badly wanted to reach through my screen and throttle someone, but Salen is just asking for it. What a sack of crap, immediately trying to go into ass covering mode when she heard that her miserliness led to a babies death. Hopefully she spends her Christmas Eve being guilt tripped by three ghosts who can teach her to stop being such a shitty person. 

The only bright spot was Glassman, making peace with his ex wife, helping her husband, and hopefully staying put to keep doing what he loves and supporting Shaun. He's been pretty out of shape for awhile, even before his divorce, hopefully this helps him get his groove back.  

Edited November 23, 2021 by tennisgurl

[kirkola]

Honestly, that was intense.  Yeah, the hospital is most definitely liable.  And the pharmacist is not long for his job.  Even though, Dr. Lim is right...this is all Salen's fault with her budget issues.  And I know that in the real world, there's a fine line between making money (thereby insuring the hospital is still standing) and saving lives. 

Weirdly I was expecting them to do one of those "deliver the baby to save the patient and then put the baby back" scenarios that crop up from time to time on medical shows.

Dr. Andrews and Salen continue to make no sense to me.  They have like zero chemistry.  I feel like Dr. Andrews is playing a long con with her, which I find unsettling.  And I continue to love Dr. Reznick and Dr. Park.

Of course, Lea should also be fired because IT screwing with patient records is a huge violation.  I would be happier if Shaun doesn't marry Lea.  They aren't a good fit, though it's clear that she really does care for him.  But just because you love each other, doesn't make you good marriage partners.  But I expect things will calm down and alot of this will go away sooner rather than later  And we'll still get our Lea/Shaun nuptials.

[Driad]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

Hopefully [Salen] spends her Christmas Eve being guilt tripped by three ghosts who can teach her to stop being such a shitty person. 

Someone please write this and post a link!

1 hour ago, kirkola said:

I would be happier if Shaun doesn't marry Lea.  They aren't a good fit

Agreed.

[statsgirl]

4 hours ago, Zonk said:

Anybody know this particular drug and can weigh in?

I don't know this drug but I have taken medication past the effective date and they were ... not effective. I had to get a new prescription.

[rmontro]

18 hours ago, Annber03 said:

If Glassman is now deciding to stay because of what his first wife had said to him, he's certainly picked a good time to do so, 'cause she's right. Shaun's gonna need him now more than ever.

I think one of the reasons Glassman was leaving was because it had been demonstrated that Shaun didn't really need him anymore, and that Lea could fill that role in Shaun's life.  With this incident, it was apparent Shaun really does need Glassman after all, and there wasn't much of anything Lea could do.  I don't see how any good will come out of Lea confessing to altering the computer data though.  Just don't do it again.

Looks like Andrews may have become entangled in a mess getting involved with Salen.

 

7 hours ago, meira.hand said:

Glassman's remark at the beginning was the best: "Salen and Andrews? They may have one soul between them."

Thought that was a great line also, maybe the best line of the season.

[preeya]

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

The only bright spot was Glassman, making peace with his ex wife, helping her husband, and hopefully staying put to keep doing what he loves and supporting Shaun. He's been pretty out of shape for awhile, even before his divorce, hopefully this helps him get his groove back.  

Was his backstory regarding "Maddie" who I assume was his daughter, ever revealed? I'm drawing a blank as far as that's concerned.

[greekmom]

5 hours ago, Good Queen Jane said:

You want realism in a show where a C-section is done and a premature baby is treated by a general surgeon without an obstetrician or pediatrician in sight? Apparently Salen's budget cuts have eliminated most of the doctors one would expect to see in a hospital of the size of St. Bonaventure.

Wasn't it last week where Andrews was trying to get the pediatrician to stop his holding out for more money??? Guess he went to a better hospital?

 

[rmontro]

2 hours ago, preeya said:

Was his backstory regarding "Maddie" who I assume was his daughter, ever revealed? I'm drawing a blank as far as that's concerned.

She OD'd after he kicked her out of the house, trying some tough love on her to give up the drugs.

[preeya]

Just now, rmontro said:

She OD'd after he kicked her out of the house, trying some tough love on her to give up the drugs.

Thanks.

[nlkm9]

5 hours ago, kirkola said:

Honestly, that was intense.  Yeah, the hospital is most definitely liable.  And the pharmacist is not long for his job.  Even though, Dr. Lim is right...this is all Salen's fault with her budget issues.  And I know that in the real world, there's a fine line between making money (thereby insuring the hospital is still standing) and saving lives. 

Weirdly I was expecting them to do one of those "deliver the baby to save the patient and then put the baby back" scenarios that crop up from time to time on medical shows.

Dr. Andrews and Salen continue to make no sense to me.  They have like zero chemistry.  I feel like Dr. Andrews is playing a long con with her, which I find unsettling.  And I continue to love Dr. Reznick and Dr. Park.

Of course, Lea should also be fired because IT screwing with patient records is a huge violation.  I would be happier if Shaun doesn't marry Lea.  They aren't a good fit, though it's clear that she really does care for him.  But just because you love each other, doesn't make you good marriage partners.  But I expect things will calm down and alot of this will go away sooner rather than later  And we'll still get our Lea/Shaun nuptials.

I agree, Andrew’s seems to be playing her and I see no interest from him, but he seems to smart to have such a risky relationship irregardless of motive. Poorly written story for that reason alone. 

[KaveDweller]

I was wondering about the expiration of medication too. My doctor told me that they are almost always meaningless. Apparently in NJ, pharmacists are required to put an expiration date of one year after they fill the medication, for everything, regardless of what the expiration date on the container they are taking the medication from. I know this was different because it was the pharmacy's own supplies, but it is surprising it could make that big a difference unless it was REALLY old. But I'm not a doctor, so what do I know.

I may be in the minority, but I hope Shaun and Leah work out. I didn't want them together originally, but after watching months of build up to them being a couple, and then a whole year of them dating, I want them to go through with it. And I really don't want to watch them start a new romance for Shaun (which you know they'd do). Leah was wrong, but she has acknowledged it and people can learn from their mistakes. 

[izabella]

I've heard drugs can lose potency over time, but it's gradual instead of all at once right after the expiration date.   They'll still work, but not as well over time.  That change in potency can make a difference if people need a specific dose of something, but wouldn't be a big deal with drugs like Tylenol for a headache. 

I get the point they are making about Salen's profit-motivated cuts to staff and funding for the pharmacy leading to a baby's death, so I'm not expecting subtlety in their storytelling.

Freddie Highmore did a great job with the pharmacy scene.  I could just feel his frustration and desperation, and how he felt trapped in it at every turn.  The confined spaces of the pharmacy were a nice parallel to Shaun not having anywhere to turn for relief.

[CarpeFelis]

Geez, Glassman, took you long enough. From the moment they said the tumor was around the carotid I kept thinking, why don’t they find a way to bypass the carotid while removing the tumor?

I hope Salen gets the boot. Lim was absolutely right to go off on her. A hospital is not a damn widget factory. Cutting corners to boost profits was bound to kill someone sooner or later.

[The Wild Sow]

13 hours ago, Good Queen Jane said:

The scene in the pharmacy was intense and Freddy Highmore really brought it, but I wish he hadn't gone through the drugs saying "Expired! Expired!" It reminded me of that insurance commercial where the aunt does the same thing with food in the refrigerator. It really took me out of what was a well acted meltdown.

Oh, I knew I couldn’t be the only one saying, Oh look - Shaun’s channeling Aunt Bonnie!  

But then, I have a sick sense of humor 😆

[preeya]

From the FDA website:

 

4. What potential risks are associated with expired drugs?

It’s important to be aware that there are several potential harms that may occur from taking an expired medicine or one that may have degraded because it was not stored according to the labeled conditions. If a drug has degraded, it might not provide the patient with the intended benefit because it has a lower strength than intended. In addition, when a drug degrades it may yield toxic compounds that could cause consumers to experience unintended side effects. Patients with serious and life-threatening diseases may be particularly vulnerable to potential risks from drugs that have not been stored properly.  There are a number of simple steps consumers can take to dispose of expired medications.

[rmontro]

I forgot to mention that last week in the previews, they showed a scene of Shaun ripping down his poster that Salen had put up.  I noticed that scene was missing this week, apparently they edited out.  There was a scene that showed the poster in the hall, but he never tore it down.

[possibilities]

I thought another reason Glassman was leaving was because he didn't want to work with Salen. He seemed happy in Montana, though.

 

6 hours ago, greekmom said:

Wasn't it last week where Andrews was trying to get the pediatrician to stop his holding out for more money??? Guess he went to a better hospital?

 

I think he actually caved and took the offer from Salen after Andrews messed with his head and made him think Salem was interviewing a replacement for him. I really don't like Andrews anymore. He and Resnik have gone past the line, in my opinion.

[bros402]

12 hours ago, Good Queen Jane said:

You want realism in a show where a C-section is done and a premature baby is treated by a general surgeon without an obstetrician or pediatrician in sight? Apparently Salen's budget cuts have eliminated most of the doctors one would expect to see in a hospital of the size of St. Bonaventure.

Yeah - a neonatologist should've been right there in the OR ready to treat that preemie. I mean, yeah, 26 week preemies survive a lot more often than they did 30 years ago, but that kid was in a car crash, so they should've been ready.

I liked Glassman's surgery scene where it showed him in his state of zen doing the surgery - it's much better than Shaun and his magic 3d remembering scenes.

I think Shaun and Leah are gonna work out after a bit of a pause on their engagement - Glassman will probably talk to him a bit - maybe he'll stay at Glassman's place.

[thuganomics85]

Well, that happened!  It's like the writers saw my season finale post last season about how the show was actually being light on the deaths that year and they were like "Oh, yeah?  Well, it's dead baby time this now!  Happy Holidays!!"

So, yeah, that was a tragic gut punch as expected and while I'm sure the show played loose on the rules like they always do and blame can probably be shifted to a few folks, it really does seem like a lot of this is boiling down to the way Salen run things with her whole "Profit first!  Making sure patients get the best options and treatments... eh, maybe in the top ten if won't hurt are bottom line too much!" approach to things.  And, of course, after being confronted by Lim, she gives a half-hearted at best "Well, that's sad, I guess" reaction and is already more concerned about their liability and protecting themselves.  I still think this show is under the impression that she has dimensions and is more than just an one-note antagonist, but as far as I'm concerned, she's the worst.  I'd taking freaking Han (Daniel Dae Kim's surgeon from way back in season two) over her, which is really saying something.

At least Glassman's case fared better.  It was nice seeing his ex and I liked that while there is clearly a lot of history there; both good and bad; they still care for one another on some levels (but not enough to cause a damn love triangle.)  I also liked that he and her current husband were friendly enough with one another.

I'm usually all about supporting your partner when you have to do things that aren't always fun, but since going on a double date with Salen/Andrews sounds like hell on Earth, I don't blame Park for pushing back on that.  Glad they worked something out, but Reznick owes him one.  She better at least watch The Wire already!

Continuing to lose respect for Andrews the more he's on Team Salen, but I hold on to some hope because he has shown in the past to do the right thing when the time finally calls for it.

Glad that Lea confessed to Shaun about her meddling at least.  Even if it wasn't pretty.  I guess we will if Shaun holds firm with not wanting to marry her anymore, but no matter the outcome, I do hope a serious conversation is had, because they really don't seem to be in a good spot right now to officially tie the knot.  Learn from Glassman's mistake, guys!

Already prepared to be annoyed when the Emmy's don't even nominate Freddie Highmore.  Between this and Bates Motel, the guy should have gotten a view already: maybe even a win.  He delivers no matter the material.

[circumvent]

14 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

This is definitely going to be Freddy's Emmy submission. 

Maybe but I thought it was overacted and please, universe, no award for this performance! It is like rewarding the Very Special Episode because a character had a meltdown scene that was overwritten and overplayed. Showing Shaun as incapable of lying is a cliche that has very little to do with reality. Autistic people can and do lie. They can be assholes and they can be nice. They are not "special" in the sense that they are the purest, flawless people. They had a different way of processing but someone like Shaun would not have reached a surgeon status if he hadn't learned some cope mechanisms. He would have meltdowns but not because people lied to him. This obvious concept is not alien to autistic people. 

I am pretty sure most medications last much longer than the expiration date. For example, some controlled substances had an expiration date of one year after dispensing but 1. that was't the same date as manufacture and 2. when the laws changed, all of a sudden the expiration date also changed to 6 months. That's an attempt to curb use, which is probably failing.The date is a mix of fear of liability, plus regulations, and a desire of making sure the sales up. It could be that some meds do expire exactly on the date printed but I doubt it. Most likely, it is the set up for a plot of getting rid of Salen - hopefully. 

6 hours ago, preeya said:

From the FDA website:

The FDA, that approved Oxy because it wasn't addictive... (not a conspiracy theory. I am grateful for medication and that there is an agency that attempts to regulate but the warning is not solely a scientific based one, there certainly are ulterior motives that falls on us to consider, and it sucks that this happens) Meds can degrade but I would guess that only if you keep taking expired ones for a long time and never get new ones. I don't think it would the cause of death. But maybe the medication Shaun destroyed is a special type of medication, like some vaccines, that do have a hard expiration date. 

 

[Virtual]

I totally got the impression that Salen was going to tell the doctors to give a cover up story to the mother to avoid her coming after the hospital legally. And I still think that is what she is going to tell them to do, or blame them, judging from the scene with Lim and the preview for next episode. I hope Lim and Shaun both put their jobs on the line going against her because everyone needs to know how wrong it is to just dismiss a death like that.

Hopefully Andrews wakes up and sees who he is dealing with.

[Emma9]

Really seemed like a missed opportunity that Glassman's ex's new husband, who specializes in making unspoken/implicit/mysterious social contracts into something open and concrete that can be explained, never got to interact with Shawn. Seems like somebody who could give him some helpful insights, and I was sure that was where they were heading when his field of study was described, but then it never got brought up again.

Not like Shawn didn't have other stuff going on in this episode, of course - so maybe the character will recur.

  

On 11/24/2021 at 5:43 AM, circumvent said:

Maybe but I thought it was overacted and please, universe, no award for this performance! It is like rewarding the Very Special Episode because a character had a meltdown scene that was overwritten and overplayed.

No offence to Freddie, but I agree. I almost never find scenery-chewing relatable no matter how justified the character is in losing it.

[bybrandy]

Almost all drugs are fine after their expiration date but some drugs aren't.   My mom took a diuretic for 20 years and four times she told me she was worried because she wasn't peeing and every one of those times her prescription was less than 3 months out of date.  Every time I called the pharmacy and got a fresh prescription and every time she was back to normal with in 24 hours after starting on the fresh meds.