TV Tropes: Love 'em or Loathe 'em

[DoctorAtomic]

Oh, for sure. I don't watch a lot of sitcoms, but I'm not sure there's analogous shows now that are issues shows. Maybe Blackish? 

Even Mary Tyler Moore probably wouldn't have a market. 

[Blergh]

1 hour ago, Annber03 said:

Yes. This. Not to get too into the political weeds, but if Archie Bunker were to exist as a character today, you could hazard a pretty safe guess as to the kinds of specific people he would support, and the viewers who would be the most upset about/offended by the show would be those who shared Archie's worldview and didn't understand why the other characters were being so "mean" to him about his opinions. 

Basically, if Lear's shows came out today, there'd be a section of people who'd complain that they were "too woke". 

There was a section back then who complained the shows were the 1970's equivalent of that!

Of course, the irony is that, in retrospect, some of the attempted Lear comedic moments were decidedly  groaners instead of 'with it' ( e.g. having Esther Rolle's Florida do a stage skit of being dressed up as  Bea Arthur's Maude's literal shadow while they awkwardly bantered to a 'Me and My Shadow' attempted song).

[Annber03]

22 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Oh, for sure. I don't watch a lot of sitcoms, but I'm not sure there's analogous shows now that are issues shows. Maybe Blackish? 

Even Mary Tyler Moore probably wouldn't have a market. 

That's the thing that's always amused me about the people complaining that shows are "too political" nowadays. Are they completely new to watching television, or were they in a coma for the last however many decades or...? TV has always had shows that addressed politics in some form or another, ever since TV became a thing - and a lot of them were just as unsubtle in their messaging then as they are now. Even if and when a show did try to show "both sides", you still got a pretty good sense of which side the creator/writers were on at the end of the day. 

Basically, "too political" is a way for a viewer to say that they don't agree with the particular politics of said show without actually having to come out and say that full on. 

6 minutes ago, Blergh said:

Of course, the irony is that, in retrospect, some of the attempted Lear comedic moments were decidedly  groaners instead of 'with it' ( e.g. having Esther Rolle's Florida do a stage skit of being dressed up as  Bea Arthur's Maude's literal shadow while they awkwardly bantered to a 'Me and My Shadow' attempted song).

Oh, definitely. That's another interesting thing about watching older TV shows, seeing how they addressed issues back then versus how they'd be addressed now. Sometimes they were progressive for their time, but would read very awkward and kind of patronizing if they aired today. And then there's some where the message remains relevant no matter what era you drop the episode into. The "Monsters are Due on Maple Street" episode of The Twilight Zone is a perfect example of that, and is a major reason why that episode resonates as strongly as it does. 

[Kel Varnsen]

23 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

do believe you could have an episode where one character genuinely forgets the non-binary person's pronouns and, in a misunderstanding blown out of proportion, the non-binary person flies into an outrage before realizing the other person really didn't mean any harm. The offending party could have a subplot in that same episode where he wonders where xir's anger comes from and "what's so special about being called 'xir' anyway?" before he realizes pronouns are important and he should do better to get them right

Isn't that just an updated version of Michael Scott from the Office though. Like a generally well meaning but completely out of touch idiot who doesn't realize he shouldn't be saying the things he is saying. 

23 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

 

 

Edited May 29, 2023 by Kel Varnsen

[DoctorAtomic]

2 hours ago, Annber03 said:

That's the thing that's always amused me about the people complaining that shows are "too political" nowadays. Are they completely new to watching television, or were they in a coma for the last however many decades or...? TV has always had shows that addressed politics in some form or another, ever since TV became a thing - and a lot of them were just as unsubtle in their messaging then as they are now. Even if and when a show did try to show "both sides", you still got a pretty good sense of which side the creator/writers were on at the end of the day. 

Basically, "too political" is a way for a viewer to say that they don't agree with the particular politics of said show without actually having to come out and say that full on. 

Same when you hear griping about politics and sports. That's been going on longer than tv. 

[Danielg342]

6 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

I don't agree that Archie would somehow be an anachronism were the show to be rebooted today.  I know people like him exist.    I hear people talk about their awkward holidays because of them.  Heck, turn on the news.  They're there.

And while these people do fear cancel culture, it's not the sometimes arbitrary aspect of cancel culture they fear; it's the consequence culture of being called out on their racism, homophobia, misogyny...etc.   They're the group that perfected the art of acting like being called a racist is worse than the racist words and actions they perpetuate.  

Archie Bunker worked because Norman Lear wrote him. Another talented writer could do a modern version today.  The Archie Bunker of today would agree that racism is bad but he likely wouldn't agree that what he does is racist. 

 

Without getting into details (and I won't provide them, so anyone who thinks it, don't ask), I do have personal experience with the arbitrary nature of cancel culture. I'm sure there are others who have similar experiences.

Plus, while I don't disagree with the idea that offenders make an artform out of "how dare you call me offensive!", I'd reckon at least a few of them moan about how arbitrary cancel culture can get. Those types let "whataboutism" run rampant, and some, I would say, have legitimate gripes.

More importantly, I think a modern Archie Bunker only works if he has the capacity to grow. He would have to be someone who at least slowly understands that what he does and say is racist/sexist/homophobic/transphobic/etc. and would mellow out as the series progresses. Not just because I think watching a character who is a bigot for the sake of being a bigot week after week would get tiring but also because Norman Lear himself gave Archie the capacity to grow.

Could Archie work today if he was simply a bigot who mellowed out? Maybe. I feel that might be a difficult sell, and I feel such a thing is tired anyway. Hollywood never does deep dives into what makes someone like Archie who he is and I think having Archie get "cancelled" would be a great way to do that.

1 hour ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Isn't that just an updated version of Michael Scott from the Office though. Like a generally well meaning but completely out of touch idiot who doesn't realize he shouldn't be saying the things he is saying. 

 

Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think Michael Scott ever come close to doing or saying the things Archie did. Though, maybe you're right- if Scott were a character now, he might complain about pronouns and that kind of stuff.

2 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Oh, for sure. I don't watch a lot of sitcoms, but I'm not sure there's analogous shows now that are issues shows. Maybe Blackish? 

Even Mary Tyler Moore probably wouldn't have a market. 

Which is the problem with many of today's sitcoms- they just don't want to challenge ideas and perceptions or be "daring" anymore. They just play it way too safe.

Which is not the way to have a successful comedy. Successful comedies are successful by having elements of commentary, because parody and satire are forms of commentary. In the '90s, even lighthearted fare like Home Improvement and Seinfeld had their moments diving into social and cultural issues, which helped make their stories more real and give the humour more meaning.

Who is doing that today? Black-ish ended in 2022. Maybe The Neighborhood is carrying the torch but then, who else? They're all retreads of the work-coms, family-coms or friend-coms that we've all seen before, without realizing that the ones we did see before still challenged conventions as we knew them.

2 hours ago, Annber03 said:

That's the thing that's always amused me about the people complaining that shows are "too political" nowadays. Are they completely new to watching television, or were they in a coma for the last however many decades or...? TV has always had shows that addressed politics in some form or another, ever since TV became a thing - and a lot of them were just as unsubtle in their messaging then as they are now. Even if and when a show did try to show "both sides", you still got a pretty good sense of which side the creator/writers were on at the end of the day. 

Basically, "too political" is a way for a viewer to say that they don't agree with the particular politics of said show without actually having to come out and say that full on.

S.W.A.T. got political in the fourth season, but I'd say they found a way to do it right.

Before I get to that, I believe the problem with "getting political" is when shows get preachy. No one wants to feel like they're being "talked down" to, and, quite frankly, watching someone rant for twenty or thirty minutes isn't usually very entertaining. Too many writers, I think, try too hard to "make their point" that they don't put in the proper work getting their point to hit home.

S.W.A.T. took a different path. They tackled racism by talking about the issue from a personal perspective. We didn't have characters who simply made rants about how bad racism is- we had characters who talked about their own negative experiences with racism, such as Hondo Sr.'s sad tale of getting beaten up by cops even though he was "just a kid coming home from band practice".

Then we had Hondo Jr. rectify how, as a Black man, he can still be a police officer himself while so many of his colleagues mistreat other Black people simply on the basis of their race. Junior and Senior had wonderful moments trading barbs where Junior insisted that he had to "be the change he wanted to be" while Senior insisted that the police could never change.

It all worked, because there was a personal element to it that allowed people in the audience to relate and understand the issue from that personal level, and there was even that hint of a debate over whose perspective- Senior or Junior- was the right one.

If you're going to tackle politics, I think it's paramount to tackle it from a personal level so it can be relatable, and I think you have to challenge the audience and make them think. Politics comes with a lot of nuance and lots of grey areas, so it's important that writers at least understand that. Sure, their biases will always seep through- there's no way to avoid that- but good writers find a way to counteract that to a degree.

[DearEvette]

1 hour ago, Danielg342 said:

Which is not the way to have a successful comedy. Successful comedies are successful by having elements of commentary, because parody and satire are forms of commentary. In the '90s, even lighthearted fare like Home Improvement and Seinfeld had their moments diving into social and cultural issues, which helped make their stories more real and give the humour more meaning.

Who is doing that today? Black-ish ended in 2022. Maybe The Neighborhood is carrying the torch but then, who else? They're all retreads of the work-coms, family-coms or friend-coms that we've all seen before, without realizing that the ones we did see before still challenged conventions as we knew them.

I'd say Abbott Elementary does quite a bit of social commentary hyper focused on public school, funding, and teacher shortages. Also it stepped right into the Charter school debate. Also because it is a school that serves primarily black children it also examines cultural issues. For instance, one major one that it visits often is when white, liberal 6th grade teacher, Jacob, who is really  into black culture is confronted with his 'taught understanding' when it comes up against the lived experience  of his students. 

[Danielg342]

3 hours ago, DearEvette said:

I'd say Abbott Elementary does quite a bit of social commentary hyper focused on public school, funding, and teacher shortages. Also it stepped right into the Charter school debate. Also because it is a school that serves primarily black children it also examines cultural issues. For instance, one major one that it visits often is when white, liberal 6th grade teacher, Jacob, who is really  into black culture is confronted with his 'taught understanding' when it comes up against the lived experience  of his students. 

My bad. Though it's no surprise it's so successful since it sounds like it's great at challenging the viewer.

[andromeda331]

6 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

Without getting into details (and I won't provide them, so anyone who thinks it, don't ask), I do have personal experience with the arbitrary nature of cancel culture. I'm sure there are others who have similar experiences.

Plus, while I don't disagree with the idea that offenders make an artform out of "how dare you call me offensive!", I'd reckon at least a few of them moan about how arbitrary cancel culture can get. Those types let "whataboutism" run rampant, and some, I would say, have legitimate gripes.

More importantly, I think a modern Archie Bunker only works if he has the capacity to grow. He would have to be someone who at least slowly understands that what he does and say is racist/sexist/homophobic/transphobic/etc. and would mellow out as the series progresses. Not just because I think watching a character who is a bigot for the sake of being a bigot week after week would get tiring but also because Norman Lear himself gave Archie the capacity to grow.

Could Archie work today if he was simply a bigot who mellowed out? Maybe. I feel that might be a difficult sell, and I feel such a thing is tired anyway. Hollywood never does deep dives into what makes someone like Archie who he is and I think having Archie get "cancelled" would be a great way to do that.

Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think Michael Scott ever come close to doing or saying the things Archie did. Though, maybe you're right- if Scott were a character now, he might complain about pronouns and that kind of stuff.

Which is the problem with many of today's sitcoms- they just don't want to challenge ideas and perceptions or be "daring" anymore. They just play it way too safe.

Which is not the way to have a successful comedy. Successful comedies are successful by having elements of commentary, because parody and satire are forms of commentary. In the '90s, even lighthearted fare like Home Improvement and Seinfeld had their moments diving into social and cultural issues, which helped make their stories more real and give the humour more meaning.

Who is doing that today? Black-ish ended in 2022. Maybe The Neighborhood is carrying the torch but then, who else? They're all retreads of the work-coms, family-coms or friend-coms that we've all seen before, without realizing that the ones we did see before still challenged conventions as we knew them.

S.W.A.T. got political in the fourth season, but I'd say they found a way to do it right.

Before I get to that, I believe the problem with "getting political" is when shows get preachy. No one wants to feel like they're being "talked down" to, and, quite frankly, watching someone rant for twenty or thirty minutes isn't usually very entertaining. Too many writers, I think, try too hard to "make their point" that they don't put in the proper work getting their point to hit home.

S.W.A.T. took a different path. They tackled racism by talking about the issue from a personal perspective. We didn't have characters who simply made rants about how bad racism is- we had characters who talked about their own negative experiences with racism, such as Hondo Sr.'s sad tale of getting beaten up by cops even though he was "just a kid coming home from band practice".

Then we had Hondo Jr. rectify how, as a Black man, he can still be a police officer himself while so many of his colleagues mistreat other Black people simply on the basis of their race. Junior and Senior had wonderful moments trading barbs where Junior insisted that he had to "be the change he wanted to be" while Senior insisted that the police could never change.

It all worked, because there was a personal element to it that allowed people in the audience to relate and understand the issue from that personal level, and there was even that hint of a debate over whose perspective- Senior or Junior- was the right one.

If you're going to tackle politics, I think it's paramount to tackle it from a personal level so it can be relatable, and I think you have to challenge the audience and make them think. Politics comes with a lot of nuance and lots of grey areas, so it's important that writers at least understand that. Sure, their biases will always seep through- there's no way to avoid that- but good writers find a way to counteract that to a degree.

The Equalizer has a lot of that. Most of Robyn's clients are people who can't go to the cops. When Robyn's daughter Delilah's friend is killed. Robyn and her aunt Vi talk about the first time they knew someone who was killed growing up. Dante who's a cop was kidnapped and beaten up by cops last season. Afterwards he had issues with remaining a cop. But he does go back to it. How are things going to change if their aren't good cops trying to change it.

[Kel Varnsen]

12 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think Michael Scott ever come close to doing or saying the things Archie did. Though, maybe you're right- if Scott were a character now, he might complain about pronouns and that kind of stuff.

I don't think he did either. The reference to Michael Scott was in response to the idea that a modern version of Archie wouldn't be overtly racist, homophobic, etc, but someone who just didn't understand things. And Michael was the guy who was just too dumb to understand why he couldn't quote Chris Rock bits word for word or why it wasn't wrong to use a stereotypical Indian accent, especially around your Indian employee.

 

12 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

More importantly, I think a modern Archie Bunker only works if he has the capacity to grow. He would have to be someone who at least slowly understands that what he does and say is racist/sexist/homophobic/transphobic/etc.

Is the growth thing important. I have been rewatching Arrested Development and within the Bluth family there is a lot of straight up racism and sexism. And while I haven't watched that latest season from Netflix I am not sure there is a lot of growth from many of those characters.

Edited May 29, 2023 by Kel Varnsen

[Browncoat]

11 hours ago, Annber03 said:

Sometimes they were progressive for their time, but would read very awkward and kind of patronizing if they aired today.

Like the episode of Bewitched where Tabitha gives herself black polka dots and her Black friend white polka dots?  Or the episode of MASH where they give the racist guy "Black blood" and also put him in dark face?  It was done to teach us that all our blood is the same, but it was awkward even then.

[Zella]

5 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I have been rewatching Arrested Development and within the Bluth family there is a lot of straight up racism and sexism. And while I haven't watched that latest season from Netflix I am not sure there is a lot of growth from many of those characters.

I feel like Arrested Development has more in common with It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia than it does All in the Family. AITF seems to want you to like Archie while also being horrified with his views, which is why I think you have so many viewers who seem to miss the point. They also seem to frame episodes as if there's something to debate between him and Meathead. 

Arrested Development and IASIP actively double-down on making its characters thoroughly dislikable and repugnant (which is what is funny about them, at least to me.) But at no point do the shows ever pretend these people are being reasonable or normal. The joke is always very firmly on the Bluths and the Gang, not the people they are being awful to.

I know a lot of people who watch AD and IASIP. I don't know any of them stanning for the Bluths or the Gang like many All in the Family viewers do for Archie. 

Edited May 29, 2023 by Zella

[Shannon L.]

2 hours ago, Zella said:

Arrested Development and IASIP actively double-down on making its characters thoroughly dislikable and repugnant (which is what is funny about them, at least to me.) But at no point do the shows ever pretend these people are being reasonable or normal. The joke is always very firmly on the Bluths and the Gang, not the people they are being awful to.

I totally agree about Arrested Development (I've never watched IASIP), although, Michael and George Michael tried-they were the least offensive of the bunch.  I've only seen a couple of episodes of All in the Family because I was way too young to watch it when it was on the air. @Kel Varnsen they don't show any growth in the Netflix seasons, either, iirc.  Imo, the Netflix seasons aren't even worth watching, but I'm sure some people really liked them.

I may be way off base adding this to the conversation, but I can't help but think of WKRP in Cincinnati.  I wrote in the "Shows that don't stand up to the test of time" thread that by all accounts, it shouldn't work today, but I have the complete DVD set and when I showed my kids and their friends (all between 16 and 18 when I showed them and all very "woke" to use a term that I hate, but you know what I mean) they loved it.   The last one to see a few episodes was a friend of my daughter's and he asked if he could borrow the set to watch more.  Some episodes include great social commentary and, for it's time, seemed somewhat liberal, but it also includes sexual harassment, a drunk/pot head, a character who is clueless about his racist comments and Venus-he's a stereotype, too, but I can't find the right word for it (got to love aging, lol).....etc....Does it fall into the same category of Arrested Development?

[Zella]

I've never actually watched WKRP! 

 

[DoctorAtomic]

WKRP holds up. I watched it a few years ago. 

On Sunny, the Gang are all terrible, but even they have a grasp of social mores. You wouldn't call them racist. Everyone is cool with Mac. They knew it way before he admitted it. 

 

[Notabug]

2 hours ago, Zella said:

I've never actually watched WKRP! 

 

If you're going to watch WKRP, you need to look for the Thanksgiving episode.  Aside from a lot of misogyny and objectification of Loni Anderson's character; it is one of the funniest pieces of TV you'll ever watch.  The episode is called 'Turkeys Away' and should be online someplace.

In defense of Loni's character, she was often shown to be smarter than any of the guys and a hard worker.

[Kel Varnsen]

10 minutes ago, Notabug said:

In defense of Loni's character, she was often shown to be smarter than any of the guys and a hard worker.

My wife got me the set for a present earlier this year. Not only is Jennifer smarter than just about everyone else but she has everyone else figured out, and Herb's comments to her are always looked at as creepy and inappropriate.

As for Venus he might be somewhat of a stereotype, but the amount of backstory he is given seems pretty impressive. The episode where you find out he went AWOL from the army is really well done.

Edited May 29, 2023 by Kel Varnsen

[Bethany]

3 hours ago, Shannon L. said:

I have the complete DVD set

We bought the first season when it came out a number of years ago and just couldn't get past that the music had been changed.  Were they able to resolve the licensing issues or did they keep having to change to music?

[Shannon L.]

2 minutes ago, Bethany said:

We bought the first season when it came out a number of years ago and just couldn't get past that the music had been changed.  Were they able to resolve the licensing issues or did they keep having to change to music?

So, this is incredibly embarrassing, but I was foolish enough to believe that I'd actually found the entire season with the original music, and when I got it it was obviously a pirated set.  I don't know where my head was-I should have known better.  I do not condone pirating and felt really guilty about it when I saw what it was.  This was years ago and ever since then, I've been very careful when purchasing things like that online.

As for the music, the dialog and acting is fantastic, but there really was something special about the music they put in each scene.  Whenever I saw it on reruns, I didn't think it was quite the same with different music, either.

[Kel Varnsen]

11 minutes ago, Bethany said:

Were they able to resolve the licensing issues or did they keep having to change to music?

They have most of it. Here is a Google sheets link that covers what is in and what is out. Most of what is out is obvious stuff from bands that would probably cost a fortune like the Beatles or Pink Floyd. But they still managed to get some pretty big artists like the Stones, Bob Dylan and AC/DC.

[Zella]

32 minutes ago, Notabug said:

If you're going to watch WKRP, you need to look for the Thanksgiving episode.  Aside from a lot of misogyny and objectification of Loni Anderson's character; it is one of the funniest pieces of TV you'll ever watch.  The episode is called 'Turkeys Away' and should be online someplace.

In defense of Loni's character, she was often shown to be smarter than any of the guys and a hard worker.

Thank you! I will give it a try. I've always been curious about it since it often comes up in discussions of funny classic comedies. 

[Danielg342]

15 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I don't think he did either. The reference to Michael Scott was in response to the idea that a modern version of Archie wouldn't be overtly racist, homophobic, etc, but someone who just didn't understand things. And Michael was the guy who was just too dumb to understand why he couldn't quote Chris Rock bits word for word or why it wasn't wrong to use a stereotypical Indian accent, especially around your Indian employee.

The difference between Michael Scott and Archie Bunker is that Michael operates from a base of obliviousness while Archie would operate from a base of defiance. No matter how many times someone tells him what he's doing isn't right, Michael just never "gets it", either because he's too stupid for it to register or he simply doesn't care.

Archie, on the other hand, knows full well that others think what he does and says are wrong- he just refuses to acknowledge it. Archie's mentality is "I'm not wrong- everyone else is wrong!"

15 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Is the growth thing important. I have been rewatching Arrested Development and within the Bluth family there is a lot of straight up racism and sexism. And while I haven't watched that latest season from Netflix I am not sure there is a lot of growth from many of those characters.

Maybe it's just me but I'm not sure I'd want to follow a protagonist that doesn't have the capacity to grow, especially in a TV series. Static characters get tiring after a while.

That said, when it comes to Arrested Development, the lack of growth by the Bluth family- outside of Michael and maybe his son- is by design. AD is about Michael and how he navigates the various scandals and difficulties his family gives him, so the Bluths not learning from their mistakes is one of Michael's many frustrations. I'm not sure the Bluths are comparable to Archie since the Bluths are really the support characters while Archie is the main guy of All In The Family.

[Zella]

Also one of the things about Arrested Development is you initially think Michael is the good guy in the family, but arguably by the end of the third season (I've never watched the revival seasons), he's revealed to not be quite as much of an angel as he presents himself. Is he better than his family? For the most part, yes. But that bar is in hell. 

[Kel Varnsen]

6 hours ago, Zella said:

Also one of the things about Arrested Development is you initially think Michael is the good guy in the family, but arguably by the end of the third season

I would say just about from the start Michael is nearly as bad as the rest of them. He is kind of crappy to his son and doesn't listen to him, he is horrible to Ann and while he hid not a criminal he sure likes to hold over his family that he is a better person than they are. You kind of know it's a show full of jerks (hilarious jerks) when the best main character is a kid who is attracted to his cousin.

[Haleth]

12 hours ago, Notabug said:

If you're going to watch WKRP, you need to look for the Thanksgiving episode.  Aside from a lot of misogyny and objectification of Loni Anderson's character; it is one of the funniest pieces of TV you'll ever watch.  The episode is called 'Turkeys Away' and should be online someplace.

I would say it is the funniest sit com episode ever.  Oh, the humanity!  (YMMV)

[Zella]

3 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I would say just about from the start Michael is nearly as bad as the rest of them. He is kind of crappy to his son and doesn't listen to him, he is horrible to Ann and while he hid not a criminal he sure likes to hold over his family that he is a better person than they are. You kind of know it's a show full of jerks (hilarious jerks) when the best main character is a kid who is attracted to his cousin.

Agreed. He's an ass all along. But I think it's not something people usually pick up on until they've gotten much farther in the series. It really stands out on a rewatch. 

[DoctorAtomic]

4 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

He is kind of crappy to his son and doesn't listen to him, he is horrible to Ann and while he hid not a criminal he sure likes to hold over his family that he is a better person than they are.

Her? 

[Notabug]

8 hours ago, Haleth said:

I would say it is the funniest sit com episode ever.  Oh, the humanity!  (YMMV)

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=god+as+my+witness+i+thought+turkeys+could+fly&view=detail&mid=7AB2B99C6B02A39642E27AB2B99C6B02A39642E2&FORM=VIRE

[Quof]

"As God is my witness" YouTube close captioners. Do better. 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

"A man and his two children tried to kill me."

[Danielg342]

"A disaster greater than the Hindenburg!"

This clip has better visual quality, though it edits a few lines out and starts earlier (which I think provides needed context):

 

[Shannon L.]

Things get a little strange after that 

[Gharlane]

On 1/18/2023 at 3:30 PM, Bethany said:

The discussion in the Friends thread reminded me of something I really dislike.  The dumbing down of a character.  There are so many examples that this must be a pretty common thing.  From Joey on Friends to Penny on Big Bang Theory to Adam on Rules of Engagement to Potsy on Happy Days.  I'm not entirely sure why this happens other than it's an easy way to make jokes at a character's expense I guess.

I believe there's a trope which describes the general exaggeration of a character to ridiculousness.

 

On 5/29/2023 at 7:05 PM, Notabug said:

In defense of Loni's character, she was often shown to be smarter than any of the guys and a hard worker.

I like that Jennifer is sppsd to be a bimbo but there is a lot more to her.

[Zella]

2 hours ago, Gharlane said:

I believe there's a trope which describes the general exaggeration of a character to ridiculousness.

Flanderization. 

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Flanderization

[Trini]

33 minutes ago, Zella said:

Flanderization. 

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Flanderization

My "favorite" and maybe the most extreme example I know of this trope is on Charles in Charge with Buddy, Charles' best friend; who in the earliest seasons starts out as a fairly normal character, but by the end of the show, he's literally too dumb to breathe.

[Laura Holt]

17 minutes ago, Trini said:

My "favorite" and maybe the most extreme example I know of this trope is on Charles in Charge with Buddy, Charles' best friend; who in the earliest seasons starts out as a fairly normal character, but by the end of the show, he's literally too dumb to breathe.

This is like Penny on BBT who starts off saying she was in junior rodeo and can  hogtie and castrate a bull in 60 seconds  and by the end of the series she can't even use glue without getting it all over her hands!

[proserpina65]

18 hours ago, Laura Holt said:

This is like Penny on BBT who starts off saying she was in junior rodeo and can  hogtie and castrate a bull in 60 seconds  and by the end of the series she can't even use glue without getting it all over her hands!

To be fair, glue IS tricky, lol.

[juno]

19 hours ago, Laura Holt said:

This is like Penny on BBT who starts off saying she was in junior rodeo and can  hogtie and castrate a bull in 60 seconds  and by the end of the series she can't even use glue without getting it all over her hands!

So true. They did this with Eric Forman on That 70's. Made him into a complete idiot by season 5.

[Quof]

19 hours ago, Laura Holt said:

by the end of the series she can't even use glue without getting it all over her hands!

It's like they think we forgot about Penny Blossoms. 

[andromeda331]

On 6/8/2023 at 3:46 PM, Trini said:

My "favorite" and maybe the most extreme example I know of this trope is on Charles in Charge with Buddy, Charles' best friend; who in the earliest seasons starts out as a fairly normal character, but by the end of the show, he's literally too dumb to breathe.

 

On 6/8/2023 at 4:06 PM, Laura Holt said:

This is like Penny on BBT who starts off saying she was in junior rodeo and can  hogtie and castrate a bull in 60 seconds  and by the end of the series she can't even use glue without getting it all over her hands!

Same with Eric Matthews from Boy Meets World. 

[Leeds]

It's not a trope but it happens all the time and drives me mad -- someone takes a phone call that lasts approximately a second but requires ten seconds to repeat to the character standing next to them.

[Leeds]

Here's another one: characters who unnecessarily and unnaturally repeat another character's name.  So, Mary Sue comes home from a hospital visit to see her only brother, and her room-mate, who knows where she has been asks, "How's your brother Nick?"

Edited June 18, 2023 by Leeds

[juno]

The good old dinner party. As soon as I see one I think what could happen?

1. Someone gets drunk and tells the truth to someone.
2. Someone hears the truth and storms off.
3. Someone runs after stormer to console them.
4. Donnybrook erupts and everyone starts telling the truth to each other.
5. Everyone storms off.
6. Something happens to the food. Drugs get accidentally put in etc.

[Browncoat]

7.  Food fight.

[Popples]

If it's a British dinner party, someone's getting murdered.

[MaryMitch]

Just saw this one - Someone has one of those big 3-5 gallon water bottles that you have to turn upside down to load on the dispenser. I've never done it myself, but I assume there is a way to do it without spilling half of it on the floor! (Yeah, it's funny, but I think about the poor guy who has to mop it up.)

[Mabinogia]

2 hours ago, MaryMitch said:

Just saw this one - Someone has one of those big 3-5 gallon water bottles that you have to turn upside down to load on the dispenser. I've never done it myself, but I assume there is a way to do it without spilling half of it on the floor! (Yeah, it's funny, but I think about the poor guy who has to mop it up.)

The one's I've had, the water didn't actually come out of the water bottle until it was on the pedestal because there was a trigger of sorts where something on the pedestal had to penetrate the opening in the bottle, like water cooler safe sex. 

[Raja]

2 hours ago, MaryMitch said:

Just saw this one - Someone has one of those big 3-5 gallon water bottles that you have to turn upside down to load on the dispenser. I've never done it myself, but I assume there is a way to do it without spilling half of it on the floor! (Yeah, it's funny, but I think about the poor guy who has to mop it up.)

You just had to be quick when you tipped it up. An explosive power move instead of a slow strength based movement.

[Zella]

Yeah we're all a bunch of hapless nerds where I work, and we're still able to pull it off without causing watery mayhem. Though it's usually one particular coworker who does it. 😂

[Blergh]

On 6/18/2023 at 4:25 PM, Leeds said:

Here's another one: characters who unnecessarily and unnaturally repeat another character's name.  So, Mary Sue comes home from a hospital visit to see her only brother, and her room-mate, who knows where she has been asks, "How's your brother Nick?"

Along those lines, locals who needlessly repeat the entire name of their locale to other locals.

Case in point: in the Wonder Woman Pilot, it seemed Princess Diana and the other Amazons constantly kept repeating that they were on 'Paradise Island' instead of just 'the Island'. I mean, these immortal Amazons had been living on this one island for two-thousand years and never BEEN to any other island the whole time  so  why the need to repeat the full name to each other each and every time?

Edited June 21, 2023 by Blergh