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TV Tropes: Love 'em or Loathe 'em


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I should further elaborate that this trope is often quite harmful to the special needs/terminally ill child as well. Plenty of children who are disabled or on the spectrum that are able to lead healthy independent lives, but not because of the idiot, overattentive parents like the ones in the Jodi Piccoult novels that @Wiendish Fitch knows and despises. One such example had a mother that would rather groom her poor neglected child to be his autistic brother’s caretaker than let said autistic son learn to drive like he begged numerous times.

The irony is that these kinds of self-martyring parents are so convinced they know what’s best for their children that they refuse to take advice from experts that really DO know how to help their children. So it’s not really about what’s best for their children after all, it’s about what THEY want. Norma Bates pulled that crap all the time, and look what happened to her.

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On 11/3/2023 at 7:43 AM, Spartan Girl said:

The belief that giving your all to shelter and coddle your special needs/terminally ill child while neglecting your other children with the excuse that “they’re tough and smart, they can cope” is somehow acceptable.

That Adam and Kristina did this with Max at Haddie's expense and were held up by the show as model parents was one of the main reasons I did not last long with Parenthood.  They were absolute shit as parents -- to Max as well as Haddie, since by expecting the entire world to cater to his needs rather than teaching him coping skills to function in the world as it actually exists they made him downright insufferable and he's going to pay the price for that whenever he's outside the entitled bubble they created for him.

And, okay, that happens.  But, as I said, they weren't narratively presented as shitty parents or even well-intentioned parents who went horribly awry, they were held up as the gold standard their dysfunctional siblings strove to keep up with.  The hell?  They ALL* sucked (again, why I didn't watch long -- it should have been called How to Fail at Parenthood).

*Less so Jasmine and Crosby, since theirs was the only household not being dictated by a kid; Jabbar actually had some rules and resulting manners.  But that was mostly Jasmine, so, yeah, the Bravermans all sucked as parents.

Edited by Bastet
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10 hours ago, Bastet said:

That Adam and Kristina did this with Max at Haddie's expense and were held up by the show as model parents was one of the main reasons I did not last long with Parenthood.  They were absolute shit as parents -- to Max as well as Haddie, since by expecting the world to cater itself to his needs rather than teaching him coping skills to function in the world as it actually exists they made him downright insufferable.  And, okay, that happens.  But, as I said, they weren't narratively presented as shitty parents, they were held up as the gold standard their dysfunctional siblings strove to keep up with.  The hell?  They ALL* sucked (again, why I didn't watch long -- it should have been called How to Fail at Parenthood).

*Less so Jasmine and Crosby, since theirs was the only household not being dictated by a kid.  But that was mostly Jasmine, so, yeah, the Bravermans all suck as parents.

More Max then Haddie. Haddie once listed all the times Max ruined something for her. Pretty much her entire life. Not only did they never make any of it up to her. They also somehow failed to realize Max had issues before it was pointed out to them in the first season. From then on instead of helping Max learn live in the world with his Asperger's they expected and demanded the world revolve around Max. Whatever he wanted they though he should have it. A girl mad at Max because he filmed her crying? Not Max's fault. Trying to pressure another girl to date Max because he liked her even though she wasn't interested in. Max going after the guy she was interested in? Not Max's fault. Max purposely gets himself kicked out of class so that he could do what he wanted? It was the school's fault and Adam and Kristina decided they had to start a new school for Max. 

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4 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

More Max then Haddie. Haddie once listed all the times Max ruined something for her. Pretty much her entire life. Not only did they never make any of it up to her. They also somehow failed to realize Max had issues before it was pointed out to them in the first season. From then on instead of helping Max learn live in the world with his Asperger's they expected and demanded the world revolve around Max. Whatever he wanted they though he should have it. A girl mad at Max because he filmed her crying? Not Max's fault. Trying to pressure another girl to date Max because he liked her even though she wasn't interested in. Max going after the guy she was interested in? Not Max's fault. Max purposely gets himself kicked out of class so that he could do what he wanted? It was the school's fault and Adam and Kristina decided they had to start a new school for Max. 

What the hell? I’ve never watched this show, but it sounds like they were basically enabling a stalker!

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On 11/3/2023 at 11:18 PM, andromeda331 said:

Haddie once listed all the times Max ruined something for her. Pretty much her entire life. Not only did they never make any of it up to her. They also somehow failed to realize Max had issues before it was pointed out to them in the first season.

I absolutely love when Adam tries to apologize to Haddie for them completely forgetting her championship game because they were too busy shoehorning recently-diagnosed Max into a school that was already full (and this, being for kids with special needs, is an environment where student:teacher ratio is crucial, but, don't you know, once they get the administrator to meet Max for five minutes, she realizes he's the greatest thing since sliced bread and simply must have him in her school), saying he knows it's been a rough "couple of weeks" for her too.  She gives him this fantastic You are a blithering idiot and I cannot believe you are my father look and corrects that it's been years, not weeks, and she has no earthly idea why they are acting surprised by the diagnosis since it has been obvious since Max was quite young there was something going on with him and, oh BTW, she's always been the one who's had to suffer because of it.

It was the only moment of honesty in the entirety of the Max storyline that I watched.

Edited by Bastet
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On 11/4/2023 at 4:19 AM, Spartan Girl said:

What the hell? I’ve never watched this show, but it sounds like they were basically enabling a stalker!

Pretty much. Max is going to end up in jail one day because his parents' taught him he should get whatever he wants. 

14 hours ago, Bastet said:

I absolutely love when Adam tries to apologize to Haddie for them completely forgetting her championship game because they were too busy shoehorning recently-diagnosed Max into a school that was already full (and this, being for kids with special needs, is an environment where student:teacher ratio is crucial, but, don't you know, once they get the administrator to meet Max for five minutes, she realizes he's the greatest thing since sliced bread and simply must have him in her school), saying he knows it's been a rough "couple of weeks" for her too.  She gives him this fantastic You are a blithering idiot and I cannot believe you are my father look and corrects that it's been years, not weeks, and she has no earthly idea why they are acting surprised by the diagnosis since it has been obvious since Maz was quite young there was something going on with him and, oh BTW, she's always been the one who's had to suffer because of it.

It was the only moment of honesty in the entirety of the Max storyline that I watched.

This is that scene

Adam: And I know with everything that has been going on with Max, you've been having a rough couple of weeks, too.

Haddie: Weeks? Dad. Try years. What? It's been years, Dad. Why is everybody acting like this Max thing is big news? He knocked over the cake at my 10th birthday because he was afraid of the candles. We had to change rooms because he couldn't be by the air conditioner. Uh, whenever he wants to watch TV, we all have to give up. It's like It's never-ending. And ever since I can remember, it's been all about Max.  

While Adam does admit Haddie's right. He doesn't do anything about it. Max continues to get anything he wants. It contiunes to be all about Max.

 

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1 hour ago, andromeda331 said:

Pretty much. Max is going to end up in jail one day because his parents' taught him he should get whatever he wants. 

This is that scene

Adam: And I know with everything that has been going on with Max, you've been having a rough couple of weeks, too.

Haddie: Weeks? Dad. Try years. What? It's been years, Dad. Why is everybody acting like this Max thing is big news? He knocked over the cake at my 10th birthday because he was afraid of the candles. We had to change rooms because he couldn't be by the air conditioner. Uh, whenever he wants to watch TV, we all have to give up. It's like It's never-ending. And ever since I can remember, it's been all about Max.  

While Adam does admit Haddie's right. He doesn't do anything about it. Max continues to get anything he wants. It contiunes to be all about Max.

 

Yep! And IMO, their constantly placating him wound up crippling him WORSE than his actual neuro divergent condition! Moreover, it seemed Adam but especially Kristina considered themselves ENTITLED to have the whole world cater to THEM due to being Max's parents! 

What's truly maddening and sad about all the above is that the show had given itself the opportunity in its six season broadcasting  to  have sympathetically depicted  the challenges of raising a high functioning autistic child and how his parents met said challenges with progress being made (even with some setbacks involved) and COULD have easily had the have been three be sympathetic characters while educating the viewing public.  It could have been similar to the arc of  Down's Syndrome child Corky and his parents  in Life Goes On (1989-1993).

Instead with , all its attempts at throwing Adam and Kristina nonstop pity parties who just threw their hands up instead of considering that Max had ANY capacity to attempt to control his outbursts much less make make the best of his life, it just revived the ugly stereotypes of  neurodivergent folks being  unredeemable monsters who zero potential for improvement AND their parents being  enablers to them and bullies to the rest of the world!

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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1 hour ago, Blergh said:

Yep! And IMO, their constantly placating him wound up crippling him WORSE than his actual neuro divergent condition! Moreover, it seemed Adam but especially Kristina considered themselves ENTITLED to have the whole world cater to THEM due to being Max's parents! 

What's truly maddening and sad about all the above is that the show had given itself the opportunity in its six season broadcasting  to  have sympathetically depicted  the challenges of raising a high functioning autistic child and how his parents met said challenges with progress being made (even with some setbacks involved) and COULD have easily had the have been three be sympathetic characters while educating the viewing public.  It could have been similar to the arc of  Down's Syndrome child Corky and his parents  in Life Goes On (1989-1993).

Instead with , all its attempts at throwing Adam and Kristina nonstop pity parties who just threw their hands up instead of considering that Max had ANY capacity to attempt to control his outbursts much less make make the best of his life, it just revived the ugly stereotypes of  neurodivergent folks being  unredeemable monsters who zero potential for improvement AND their parents being  enablers to them and bullies to the rest of the world!

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Think Max was a hideous example of a neurodivergent stereotype? I’ll raise you Tom on Secret Life of the American Teenager. EVERYONE on that show was an asshole, but Tom was one of the worst. He was a spoiled brat that treated everyone like shit, and nobody told him off for it because, you guessed it, he was on the spectrum. JFC.

I don’t know what’s worst, the neurodivergent characters who are coddled assholes or the ones that are written as Tragically Too Good for This Sinful Earth, courtesy of “writers” like Jodi Piccoult. Either way, they’re both insulting.

Edited by Spartan Girl
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16 hours ago, Blergh said:

Instead with , all its attempts at throwing Adam and Kristina nonstop pity parties who just threw their hands up instead of considering that Max had ANY capacity to attempt to control his outbursts much less make make the best of his life, it just revived the ugly stereotypes of  neurodivergent folks being  unredeemable monsters who zero potential for improvement AND their parents being  enablers to them and bullies to the rest of the world!

Made all the worse because the reason this story existed is the show's creator has a kid with ASD.  Way to make your family look like shit, dude.

And, OMG, in researching to confirm my recollection of the above is accurate, I discovered that Adam and Kristina went on to have another kid after I quit watching.  Great, someone else they can completely ignore.

Edited by Bastet
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On 11/5/2023 at 6:24 AM, Blergh said:

Yep! And IMO, their constantly placating him wound up crippling him WORSE than his actual neuro divergent condition! Moreover, it seemed Adam but especially Kristina considered themselves ENTITLED to have the whole world cater to THEM due to being Max's parents! 

What's truly maddening and sad about all the above is that the show had given itself the opportunity in its six season broadcasting  to  have sympathetically depicted  the challenges of raising a high functioning autistic child and how his parents met said challenges with progress being made (even with some setbacks involved) and COULD have easily had the have been three be sympathetic characters while educating the viewing public.  It could have been similar to the arc of  Down's Syndrome child Corky and his parents  in Life Goes On (1989-1993).

Instead with , all its attempts at throwing Adam and Kristina nonstop pity parties who just threw their hands up instead of considering that Max had ANY capacity to attempt to control his outbursts much less make make the best of his life, it just revived the ugly stereotypes of  neurodivergent folks being  unredeemable monsters who zero potential for improvement AND their parents being  enablers to them and bullies to the rest of the world!

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's what I really hoped the storyline would be when Max was diagnosed in seasonb one. That would have been a really interesting story for all three of them. Learning to raise a child with Asperger's and being the child with Asperger's learning how to live with it. I really wanted that story. It is still very rare to have a child with a disability. Instead they went the worse way possible.

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On 11/5/2023 at 1:34 PM, Bastet said:

Made all the worse because the reason this story existed is the show's creator has a kid with ASD.  Way to make your family look like shit, dude.

And, OMG, in researching to confirm my recollection of the above is accurate, I discovered that Adam and Kristina went on to have another kid after I quit watching.  Great, someone else they can completely ignore.

And they pretty much did ignore her.  Max' story was a trainwreck. There was an episode where his aunt was at work, using a computer to edit photos (she was working at a photography studio).  Max arrives, wants to use the computer for something or other and literally shoves her out of the chair and starts working.  And the whole family simply lets him do it.  No apology, no boundary setting, just let him have access to a business' computer and potentially losing or ruining the work she was doing at the time. Not to mention the physical assault on his aunt.

As mentioned above, Max decided to punch a kid because the girl Max liked wanted to be with this guy.  Not only did Kristina, who ran the school for autistic kids that Max attended, refuse to punish Max; she essentially blew off the kid's parents who were then left with no choice but to withdraw their kid from the school.  Once again, Max assaults someone and is rewarded for it.

Sorry if some of the details are incorrect, it's been a long time since I watched.

If anything, Max Braverman's storyline was an abject lesson on how NOT to deal with a kid on the spectrum.

Edited by Notabug
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On 11/2/2023 at 10:05 AM, proserpina65 said:

Like Ohiopirate said, local authorities notify the authorities in the next jurisdiction and the state authorities as well.

If memory serves, the law enforcement in the counties adjacent to Hazzard were even more corrupt than Boss Hogg.

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I'm really fed up with the trope of a character talking to a late character's ghost. I think it's meant to be all symbolic, cinematic, or whatever, but I find it tedious and silly. Once in a while they can do something cool with it, like in Netflix's Painkiller,

Spoiler

when Arthur Sackler's ghost beats the ever-living shit out of worthless weasel Richard Sackler, even it is, obviously, just in Richard's head

but it's rarely worth it.

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55 minutes ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

I'm really fed up with the trope of a character talking to a late character's ghost. I think it's meant to be all symbolic, cinematic, or whatever, but I find it tedious and silly. Once in a while they can do something cool with it, like in Netflix's Painkiller,

  Hide contents

when Arthur Sackler's ghost beats the ever-living shit out of worthless weasel Richard Sackler, even it is, obviously, just in Richard's head

but it's rarely worth it.

Ah, so you hated that part of The Crown too.

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7 hours ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

I'm really fed up with the trope of a character talking to a late character's ghost. I think it's meant to be all symbolic, cinematic, or whatever, but I find it tedious and silly. Once in a while they can do something cool with it, like in Netflix's Painkiller,

  Reveal spoiler

when Arthur Sackler's ghost beats the ever-living shit out of worthless weasel Richard Sackler, even it is, obviously, just in Richard's head

but it's rarely worth it.

Agree! As much as I like the performer Blake Clark in other things,  his character Chet Hunter was such a rotten, manipulative character that it dragged down both Boy Meets World and Girl Meets World  (though the latter show was already the pits)to have had had Mr. Clark  revive the character as allegedly sainted/friendly ghost instead of  actually having his son mourn Chet as he'd been instead of as he wished Chet had been!

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On 11/24/2023 at 7:46 PM, Wiendish Fitch said:

You got me! Yeah, I thought that was just lame. 

So lame. It was just a cheap way to give Charles the closure he had neither earned nor deserved. Flashbacks of all their moments in the series would’ve packed a much more emotional punch.

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If Charles was supposed to have had some kind of encounter with Diana's ghost, why not have also had encounters with the ghosts of Lord Louis Mountbatten, the Queen Mother, Princess Margaret, or even his comparatively recently deceased parents? I'm sure any or all the above would have had something to say and would have been just as real and legit as any mumbo jumbo with Diana!  I know The Crown wasn't supposed to have been a documentary but that whole deal with those two after her death significantly trashed its cred as being supposedly close to the ballpark re the behind the scenes lives of the Windsors.

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A character makes a drunken speech at a wedding in which their air out their marital/romantic grievances. Offenders of this trope include Lorelei Gilmore, Marge Simpson, and even Xander’s own parents on Buffy.*

It should be a cardinal rule for wedding guests not to make someone else’s wedding all about yourself. Just once, I’d love such a character, instead of getting sympathy, to get told off for making a spectacle of himself/herself and humiliating their spouse. That’s what should have happened to Lorelei Gilmore when she pulled that crap at Lane’s wedding instead of the townies covering her ass as usual.

*Much as I hate Xander, I’m almost glad he wasn’t around to see them use his wedding as an excuse to humiliate each other. Though any sympathy I had for him was gone after leaving Anya at the altar.

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5 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

A character makes a drunken speech at a wedding in which their air out their marital/romantic grievances.

I take your overall point, but I nonetheless enjoy the hell out of some of them within the realm of fiction (hell, I'll admit I'd laugh at some of those in real life, too).  I love Jackie's at Crystal and Ed's wedding on Roseanne; it is so perfectly her in all its contradiction.  The guy videotaping the reception comes to her table and insists everyone say something for posterity.  So Jackie slurs this out to Crystal:

You probably think you're better than me 'cause you're married.  Well, you're not.  I could be married if I wanted to, but there's far more to life than being married.  Marriage is one more way for men to enslave women.  So get out of the cave, Crystal, this is the 20th -- [irritated at being interrupted by someone off-camera]  WHAT?  [no longer irritated]  Oh, okay.  [turns back to camera, gleefully]  You're gonna throw the bouquet now!

Edited by Bastet
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On 8/7/2014 at 1:12 PM, legaleagle53 said:

 

That's actually a valid literary device.  It's called the "Historic Present," and its purpose is to make the narrative more vivid, in order to make the reader feel as though he or she really were there as an eyewitness to the events being related.  The Romans, for example, used it quite frequently in prose to great effect.

It is common in Noir. 

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There is a weird troupe of older people hooking up with their friend's barely legal kid, or kid in general. Especially if they knew said kid since they were an actual child. The older I get, the creepier it becomes. I've watched plenty of boys turn into young men, and  a part of my mind will always see them as those children. I feel like their aunt because I've been interacting with them since they were very young. I've mentioned in other threads my distaste for Dr. Richard Burke and Monica on Friends. It was in that Sharon Lawerence/Brian Austin Green movie a million years ago and more recently Women Who Kill between Lucy Liu and Leo Howard's characters. I am not totally against the age gaps if, bare minimum, if the older isn't a close friend of one of the parents, and they meet when both are adults, but if both aren't checked off, I dip.

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Quote

 

A million years ago, back on TWoP, someone had this to say about mean comedy: does the target have it coming?

If the answer is yes, then I'll gladly laugh at their misery. If not, then it feels like Genovese syndrome, and I feel complicit somehow, even if it's only fictional. 

I can also expand on this point: does the bullied victim get their own back? Get revenge, triumph in some way, anything? Does someone stand up for them? Do the bullies get any kind of comeuppance? Showing my age, but I remember a brilliant episode of Tiny Toon Adventures where Babs subjects Shirley's bullying ballet classmates to a hilariously humiliating routine of slapstick violence during a recital. The mean girls suffer brutal indignities, but Shirley comes out on top, earning enthusiastic applause.

Or, taking the more complex, adult route, is the victim actually sympathetic? Take Greg from Succession. I agree it's appalling and wrong how Tom abuses him... but it's only because Tom is taking his gross, petty insecurities out on a weaker man. That is horrid behavior, and I don't condone it one bit. On the other hand, Greg is assuredly not sympathetic; he's a grasping, weaselly little social climber. He doesn't get pushed around because he lacks confidence, he gets pushed around because he lacks character. That's a crucial difference, and it creates layers in the interactions between him and Tom. In fact, that's true with the majority of the characters, which is what I admired about the show.

Yes, I made references to both Tiny Toons and Succession. That's just the kind of hairpin I am.

 

Quoting the above from the Unpopular TV Opinions thread because I agree the butt-monkey trope can work for the reasons stated here, AND if there's more than one butt-monkey. Dee from It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia checks off all those boxes: she's just as bad as the rest of the gang, the latter even acknowledge that bullying her isn't fun if she doesn't fight back in "The Gang Broke Dee," and sometimes Charlie, Mac or even Dennis will take over that role for an episode assuming it's not one of their many victims like Rickety Cricket.

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TV has got to start getting away from 'Genius/Highly Skilled Protagonist With a Tragic, Mysterious Past (who can help everyone except themselves)'.

I'm ready for some well-adjusted detectives again, thanks. (Still miss you, God Friended Me !)

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4 hours ago, Trini said:

TV has got to start getting away from 'Genius/Highly Skilled Protagonist With a Tragic, Mysterious Past (who can help everyone except themselves)'.

I'm ready for some well-adjusted detectives again, thanks. (Still miss you, God Friended Me !)

Oh God me too. I love messy train wreck characters usually, but I like my detectives to be functional adults without personal drama or horribly traumatic backstories who also get along with their coworkers. LOL That's true of both TV and books. Just do your detecting without being an angsty, troubled drama llama or an asshole! 

Edited by Zella
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(edited)
21 minutes ago, Zella said:

Oh God me too. I love messy train wreck, characters usually, but I like my detectives to be functional adults without personal drama or horribly traumatic backstories who also get along with their coworkers. LOL That's true of both TV and books. Just do your detecting without being an angsty, troubled drama llama or an asshole! 

It's not even that I'm against this type of character, in theory, but lately it seems like EVERY new show is this SAME character.

Edited by Trini
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21 hours ago, Trini said:

It's not even that I'm against this type of character, in theory, but lately it seems like EVERY new show is this SAME character.

The trouble is, once something is a huge hit, all the studios try to make their own version of it. It oversaturates the market. It seems like maybe 5 people in Hollywood have the ability to come up with fresh new ideas and the other 500 or so just steal those ideas and grind them into the ground until there is nothing left. 

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One I realized last night watching King of queens. 

Two people join a book club./class

One loves it the other doesn't and never reads the book but lies about it. Until they are caught by not knowing a detail of tge book the other person tests them on

And it's always an 19th century English book like Jane eyre. 

Friends and king of queens (later) did almost the same storyline on this. I'm sure others have too

At least on Friends they do the twist with Monica joining the class and being the know it all student phoebe regrets which is funny

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I think the one I hate the most is when one character refuses to tell their spouse/partner/friend/parent the whole story of what's happening with them (or tell them anything at all) and it makes for, at best, a lot of confusion and, at worst, a lot of anger between the characters.

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8 hours ago, Shannon L. said:

I think the one I hate the most is when one character refuses to tell their spouse/partner/friend/parent the whole story of what's happening with them (or tell them anything at all) and it makes for, at best, a lot of confusion and, at worst, a lot of anger between the characters.

I just finished a show where up until the final ep, the show was amazing, writing was sharp the actors were on pointe, but then the entire final ep was basically what you said and I spent the whole hour shouting to just forking tell him why you're pissed!!!!!! 

Spoiler

It was Mr. & Mrs. Smith and it was painfully obvious that John didn't do what Jane thought and was trying to kill him over. It was so frustrating because up till then the show was doing a great job of avoiding being that contrived. And this just was so obviously their way of trying to do the scene where they try to kill each other which I could have lived without because it shit all over 7 episodes of building up this amazingly complex relationship. I mean, how do you get over your wife literally trying to blow you up? 

 

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On 3/2/2024 at 10:07 AM, Shannon L. said:

I think the one I hate the most is when one character refuses to tell their spouse/partner/friend/parent the whole story of what's happening with them (or tell them anything at all) and it makes for, at best, a lot of confusion and, at worst, a lot of anger between the characters.

And then the person whose left in the dark is made out to be the asshole when it all could have been avoided their partner/friend/parent had just been honest from the get go.

Genie said it best:

truth dating GIF

 

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