S03.E02: The President Kissed Me

[Sir RaiderDuck OMS]

 

On 9/15/2021 at 5:10 AM, hoodooznoodooz said:

I’m enjoying how much Linda’s cubicle mate drives her insane. 

I've had to work in close proximity with people I couldn't stand. You learn to sorta like them, simply because liking them (if only in the moment) expends WAY less mental energy than being annoyed at them constantly.

 

On 9/15/2021 at 11:32 AM, qtpye said:

That being said…WORST CLINTON IMPRESSION EVER!

I am a Clive Owen fan but he is not capturing Clinton’s charm or physicality.

Owen is a good actor and has Clinton's Arkansas accent (which some impressionist once described as "Jimmy Carter with a touch of Elvis") down pat, but looks nothing like the man. Having seen Clinton in person and shaken his hand, I can verify that his charisma was off the charts, and Owen doesn't really capture that either. I almost wish they'd gotten Darrell Hammond (who did a great comedic Clinton on Saturday Night Live for years), but Hammond might not have been able to handle the dramatic stuff.

 

6 hours ago, kj4ever said:

I'm sorry but they should have cast a different actress for Monica.  The actress playing her is so much bigger than Monica was it's like they've made a cartoon out of her.

Beanie Feldstein doesn't look much like Monica beyond the hair and big smile, but she's perfectly capturing a young besotted staffer's naivete.

Edited September 17, 2021 by Sir RaiderDuck OMS

[juliet73]

I don't think Monica was unhinged. I agree that Monica was lonely and had very low self esteem and Clinton totally preyed upon that. Knowing that her affair with Clinton was not her first (or second) relationship with a married man, and she was only 22, leads me to believe she is not as innocent and naive as the show is making her out to be.  Also, they are making Linda Tripp completely unlikeable and pathetic as possible. Since Monica is an executive producer, I'm assuming she had a lot of input of how the story was written and is trying to portray herself to the public as more of a victim of Clinton and Tripp.  Don't get me wrong, I think was totally taken advantage of by both of them, but she's not without fault. 

I'm not liking Clive Owen as Bill Clinton.  He doesn't really look like him and he's not coming across as this charming captivating man that he's been described as by people who've met him. 

After all these years, it still bothers me that Clinton came out of this scandal the least scathed while Tripp and Lewinsky were completely vilified in the press and public opinion and still to this day!

 

Edited September 18, 2021 by juliet73

[sashayshante]

On 9/15/2021 at 8:48 AM, txhorns79 said:

Monica was also an adult.  She knew Clinton was married.  She knew he was President.  They both had poor judgment and should have known better. 

22 might technically be an adult, but a person's pre-frontal cortex - the part of the brain responsible for reasoning and judgment - isn't fully developed until about 25 or so. Throw in the bullying and rejection she undoubtedly received for being plus-sized and you've got an  emotionally stunted young woman with shaky self-esteem getting attention from one of the most powerful men in world.

Lewinsky irritates me now for constantly dredging this scandal up to get likes on Twitter, but she was a victim.

[BrindaWalsh]

I can add myself to the list who can draw comparisons to 22 year old Monica and things they did in their 20s and cringe (at the very least).  It stems from a severe lack of self-esteem, a "history" of unreciprocated relationships - the kind where he throws the bone, gets what he enjoys, and you develop feelings qnd desperately want him to feel the same so you keep coming back for more - loneliness, and other issues that will eventually get worked out in therapy.  So when somebody comes along who gives you even a glimpse of feeling worthwhile, attractive, sexy, intelligent, it knocks your world. If you didn't have that experience in your young romantic life, I envy you.  It is not easy to live through and look back on, "cringe" doesn't do it justice!

I too have heard tales of the Bill Clinton magnetism from people who have met him.  It is allegedly sky high, and doesn't come across on tv, it is an in-person thing.  I don't get it.  I don't find him attractive at all.

Let's also remember the timeframe of this.  It was the 90s.  Messages sent to teens and women in the 90s entangled empowerment with physical appearance and sex. We are just now looking back and realizing how anti-empowerment those messages really were.  Flashing your pink lace thong IS trashy in todays world.  But back then I bet you can find a Cosmo article entitled "Don't Let that Crush Crush You - 5 ways to let him know where he stands with YOU" or something like that which somehow highlights "give him a little flash!" as a means of taking control of your feelings and letting him know exactly what you want.  Yes, that is how messed up and conflicting those messages were back then. 

Is there a feminist message in here?  Absolutely, it is there, just different than what we might expect.

So is Monica unhinged?  I don't think that is the right word.  The expression in the eyes is giving certain vibes that way, but I don't think unhinged is the right word.  Does she bear some responsibility?  Absolutely.  But middle aged Bill should have known better.  It takes 2 to tango, but Bill lead the dance.

I now do wonder if Bill and Monica did actually have sex and it just never came to light because he was saying no and she was too terrified and wanted to keep one moment as theirs, not to be dissected, mocked and picked at by the world. This went on for long time.

Cobie as Ann freaks me out.  

 

 

Edited September 18, 2021 by BrindaWalsh

[qtpye]

22 hours ago, kj4ever said:

I'm sorry but they should have cast a different actress for Monica.  The actress playing her is so much bigger than Monica was it's like they've made a cartoon out of her.

I am a few years behind Monica, and I remember how they used to call her names like that.  She didn't deserve it, and she doesn't deserve having an actress that size play her.  It's like they are making fun of her all over again.  I'm not digging on the actress playing her - she just isn't right for the part.

The way Monica acted - not wanting to leave in case he called and all that - I had plenty of friends who acted like that and it wasn't for the POTUS.

Yes, I have known women just like that as well. They drop everything for a man who obviously does not look at them more than a side chick, if even that.

It is so sad that Monica looks at this as a relationship where Bill just sees her as one in a long line of women he's used and discarded.

[chocolatine]

I was a teenager when the original events played out, and at the time none of it seemed like a huge deal to me. I grew up in Europe, and politicians having extramarital relationships didn't usually warrant that much news coverage over there. But watching this show now as an adult, I'm really squicked out by the tawdriness of it all, Monica's desperation, and Bill's cavalier attitude. I find it hard to even dislike Linda because Bill is the real villain IMO, and Monica seems to be running her mouth to anyone who would listen, so if it hadn't been Linda to spill the beans, it would have been someone else.

I don't know if it's just me, but Clive Owen with gray hair looks much more like Joe Biden to me than Bill Clinton, so he's a really bad casting choice IMO. And I also agree that Beanie is miscast as Monica. Monica was also on the heavier side (IIRC, *the* dress was a size 14), and one can argue whether or not she was classically beautiful, but she had a certain sex appeal that Beanie lacks.

On the plus side, Sarah Paulson and Analeigh Ashford are cast perfectly, IMO. There was some backlash about Sarah wearing padding being somehow "fat-phobic," but Linda Tripp was a larger woman, so that's true to the character.

[qtpye]

2 hours ago, chocolatine said:

I was a teenager when the original events played out, and at the time none of it seemed like a huge deal to me. I grew up in Europe, and politicians having extramarital relationships didn't usually warrant that much news coverage over there. But watching this show now as an adult, I'm really squicked out by the tawdriness of it all, Monica's desperation, and Bill's cavalier attitude. I find it hard to even dislike Linda because Bill is the real villain IMO, and Monica seems to be running her mouth to anyone who would listen, so if it hadn't been Linda to spill the beans, it would have been someone else.

I don't know if it's just me, but Clive Owen with gray hair looks much more like Joe Biden to me than Bill Clinton, so he's a really bad casting choice IMO. And I also agree that Beanie is miscast as Monica. Monica was also on the heavier side (IIRC, *the* dress was a size 14), and one can argue whether or not she was classically beautiful, but she had a certain sex appeal that Beanie lacks.

On the plus side, Sarah Paulson and Analeigh Ashford are cast perfectly, IMO. There was some backlash about Sarah wearing padding being somehow "fat-phobic," but Linda Tripp was a larger woman, so that's true to the character.

I agree with most of what you are saying. Clive is just too lean to make a passable Clinton.

Paulson is doing a great job. However, there are just so few roles for actresses over a certain size or age. This would have been a great part for a no-name actress of a certain size to shine.

Here is Tom and Lorenzo's take on it:

Quote

No matter how much Sarah Paulson can do in terms of getting inside a character’s head, she will never truly know what it’s like to move through the world being treated as a plus-size woman who’s considered ugly. Without naming any, there are countless character actresses who know what it’s like to be perceived as a Linda Tripp in the world and we think almost any one on the same skill level as Paulson would easily be able to find things in the character that she simply cannot. It’s a very good performance, but there’s no denying it’s lacking a sense of truth to it. This might seem nitpicky as hell, but one of us has actually gone through life as an overweight person (a term we’ll reserve only for ourselves) and Paulson’s tiny head and delicate hands sticking out from under all that padding was extremely distracting.

 

[Milburn Stone]

19 hours ago, qtpye said:

Here is Tom and Lorenzo's take on it:

That Tom and Lorenzo take really irritates me. They seem to be saying not only that Sarah Paulson wasn't the only actress who could play this, but that casting her was ethically wrong. How very woke of them. And, of course, stupid.

[AuntieMame]

On 9/15/2021 at 9:58 AM, LADreamr said:

Also, it wasn't just his position and power.  He has a magnetism that I've even heard a number of straight men who have met him say that they felt it too, and completely understand the effect he has on some women.

I remember all of this happening at the time.  I worked at a law firm in LA then, and Monica's first lawyer came in to our firm to work with one of our partners.  His energy was so slimy I couldn't be anywhere near him.  Made me feel even worse for her, that she seemed to be let down by everyone around her.

After this episode last night, I went down a rabbit hole of videos of news coverage, watching the breaking news of their involvement, and then her interviews, and her HBO special (which was only a few years later).  She was not unhinged.  She was poised, articulate, and intelligent. She had been through a lot as a teenager, and hadn't healed from any of that yet, especially in regards to her self-esteem, and then she gets validation from Clinton, and everything that came with that.  Of course it was addictive and intoxicating.

@LADreamr

This is very interesting stuff, thank you for some inside scoop. Because oh how I remember this! I felt so bad for her. I still feel bad for her. I’m about five years older and the same physical type, so every headline and late night comedian joke and comment felt like it burned me too. I felt at the time that she must have been naive and troubled and that she thought he loved her. With all of her sophistication she didn’t perceive that clearly. Not many could truly say no to the leader of the free world unless he was a complete troll of some sort and I too have heard tales of the Clinton charisma. 

Good grief, that’s Clive Owen? Well. He certainly has the smarmy nailed but something isn’t fitting Owen quite right because you wouldn’t think that Clive Owen would have trouble channeling his inner sexy. He’s done ugly sexy too, I’m thinking of Closer but none of that bite here. I hate that as a society we destroyed Monica Lewinsky and did so pretty much without mercy. Yes, I know she’s married and still wealthy but she is forever held in contempt and in ways other mistresses have not. Speaking of charisma, Monica had plenty to go with all of that beauty. 

On 9/15/2021 at 2:20 PM, Clawdel said:

Monica doesn't come off as unhinged to me. She comes across as a young woman with serious emotional problems and bipolar disorder, which I have been living with since I was 18.

I was the same age as Monica when this scandal erupted. Here's what she and I have in common: hypersexuality caused by the chemical imbalance, poor impulse control, erratic judgement, extreme risk-taking, obsessive behavior, low self-esteem, mood swings, and compulsive eating disorders such as restricting and binging, weight fluctuations, and terrible sleep hygiene. Early onset bipolar disorder happens in the late teens to early twenties. Manic depressives can be charming, effervescent, outgoing, and bright. They can also come from turbulent childhoods and dysfunctional families. Monica's inner child was really running a 23-year-old woman's life, when every decision you make can impact your career and relationships.

I remember when Monica did her 20/20 interview with Barbara Walters, she said she was in therapy and on anti-depressants. I hope a mood stabilizer was part of her treatment. I listened to all of the tapes when they came out in the 1990's and I could hear so much that sounded familiar when she was irritable, tearful, and downright angry.

When Clinton was "repenting" by seeking counsel from Billy Graham and going to church with him family, Bible in hand, Betty Ford said it right, he's a classic sex addict. Compulsive behavior can wreck a person's life and it also impacted Hilary's presidential campaigns!

People suffering from the ups and downs of bipolar disorder and stress can easily be victimized by predators like Linda Tripp, because the chaos in our heads and personal lives interfere with out ability to use good judgement, discretion, and intuition. When that scandal hit, Monica's mom was terrified that she would commit suicide.

Uh, yeah. I had a goodly portion of that list nailed in my twenties. Are you saying symptoms like that might be problematic? Trauma is the root of a lot of these things too as the work of Gabor Mate shows so clearly. Poor Monica, she definitely wasn’t mature and wasn’t perceiving things with clarity. There I liked her much savvier and more stable best friend. Her character isn’t a misogynist portrait. Even at the time it was clear that there was a lot going on here in everyone’s emotional reactions. 
 

@BrindaWalsh You’re so right that cringe doesn’t cover having low self esteem, especially in the contests that women are still told are the only ones that matter, namely having the love of a man and being beautiful in the socially prescribed way. I always thought that Monica wanted live from Clinton and thought that she was getting at least a little. Clinton’s purported response to Monica’s declaration of live “That means a lot to me” tells us everything we need to know about where his head was. 

How did this get made? I can’t imagine that the Clintons are thrilled. 

Edited September 19, 2021 by AuntieMame
Had to speak to other posters insights.

[MsTree]

On 9/15/2021 at 3:48 PM, iMonrey said:

Quote

I am not seeing Beanie as Monica. She looks too childlike/immature. 

She is also not as attractive and much heavier than Monica was. I'm sorry but it's true. It's hard to believe Lewinsky herself approved of Feldstein's casting. Weird choice. 

I thought the exact same thing and wonder if Monica chose her because of childlike looks (read: innocent).

[MamaMax]

On 9/17/2021 at 8:22 PM, juliet73 said:

I don't think Monica was unhinged. I agree that Monica was lonely and had very low self esteem and Clinton totally preyed upon that. Knowing that her affair with Clinton was not her first (or second) relationship with a married man, and she was only 22, leads me to believe she is not as innocent and naive as the show is making her out to be.  Also, they are making Linda Tripp completely unlikeable and pathetic as possible. Since Monica is an executive producer, I'm assuming she had a lot of input of how the story was written and is trying to portray herself to the public as more of a victim of Clinton and Tripp.  Don't get me wrong, I think was totally taken advantage of by both of them, but she's not without fault. 

I'm not liking Clive Owen as Bill Clinton.  He doesn't really look like him and he's not coming across as this charming captivating man that he's been described as by people who've met him. 

After all these years, it still bothers me that Clinton came out of this scandal the least scathed while Tripp and Lewinsky were completely vilified in the press and public opinion and still to this day!

 

I was unaware of this - who were her priors? were they also bosses/professors/other powerful men? 

[DanaK]

It seems another post got lost in the ether, so I'll just repeat the high points.

80 minutes for each episode (at least through Episode 4) seems like too much

I didn't feel sorry for Monica at all in this episode. She acted like so many people, especially women, do in affairs with married lovers and wait around for crumbs and a sign that the lover is paying attention. Plus, Monica apparently had previous affairs with a couple of married men, so she should have known better (but then so should Clinton). I think the actress is doing a good job of getting across Monica's hopeless and naive need to hear from Clinton and be near him as much as possible, even if her look isn't as close as it should be

The only time I felt Linda was being sincere and likeable in this episode was when she talked about her kids

I think Clive as Clinton is doing a good job. I especially liked the scene where he was just talking about stuff with Monica

The episode has Paula clearly being used by people, though it's a bit hard to tell if she is quite as naive as she seems to be

 

 

Edited September 20, 2021 by DanaK

[Joimiaroxeu]

Brie. It's French!

Huh, was Linda jealous of Monica, or at least attracted to Clinton herself? That was an oddly wistful moment when she was watching the inauguration party on TV.

Still seems weird to me that people in the WH weren't more concerned about a 20-something year-old intern having so much private access to the president.

[DanaK]

1 hour ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Brie. It's French!

Huh, was Linda jealous of Monica, or at least attracted to Clinton herself? That was an oddly wistful moment when she was watching the inauguration party on TV.

Still seems weird to me that people in the WH weren't more concerned about a 20-something year-old intern having so much private access to the president.

Clearly they were concerned given Monica got moved to the Pentagon. But I guess most of them figured it wasn’t their business. I think maybe the secretary thought she had to do what her boss told her

[Cupcake04]

On 9/15/2021 at 3:55 AM, revbfc said:

All things being equal, Monica was unhinged.

BUT!

All things were NOT equal.

Monica was in her early 20’s (who among us made good romantic decisions at that age?), and Bill was an adult who should have known better.  His impeachment was unwarranted, but Bill is still the one who fucked up.  Never forget that.

I could not disagree with you more.  She was not a kid.  She absolutely has a share of the responsibility for this.  She absolutely knew EXACTLY what she was doing.  I am actually kinda shocked that she is showing her side this way.  I almost wasn’t going to watch when I saw she was involved as a producer figuring Monica would be portrayed as a naive, taken advantage of girl, so I am pleasantly surprised.  She probably would have let it go and moved on if not for Linda Tripp.  She was such a despicable human being.  I followed this as it unfolded (yep, Cupcake is freakin that old  😩) and Linda Tripp was, well, a trip, pun intended.  And Paulson is NAILING it playing her.  

Not to mention all the people using both Monica and Paula for political gain, not caring who got hurt along the way, Hilary and Chelsea among them.  Some things never change, do they?  Don’t even get me started on Ken Starr 🤬

[juliet73]

9 hours ago, MamaMax said:

I was unaware of this - who were her priors? were they also bosses/professors/other powerful men? 

Per Wikipedia:  In 1992, she allegedly began a five-year affair with Andy Bleiler, her married former high school drama instructor.[16] In 1993, she enrolled at Lewis & Clark College in Portland, Oregon, graduating with a bachelor's degree in psychology in 1995.[3][1][13] In an appearance on Larry King Live in 2000, she revealed that she started an affair with a 40-year-old married man in Los Angeles when she was 18 years old, and that the affair continued while she was attending Lewis & Clark College in the early '90s. She did not reveal the man's identity.[17]     (references:  [16]Clairborne, William (January 28, 1998). "Lewinsky's Former Teacher Discloses Affair". The Washington Post. p. A22.   [17] "Monica Lewinsky Once Revealed She Had A Relationship With A Married Man Prior To Bill Clinton Affair". USA News Site. 

[Ailianna]

Those dates don't match up.  If those are two men, they almost entirely overlapped.

[MamaMax]

5 hours ago, Ailianna said:

Those dates don't match up.  If those are two men, they almost entirely overlapped.

Its possible she had the teacher in LA when she was home and  had another lover in Portland, I guess.

I do think its interesting that the other man she IDed was also an authority figure. And also gross and smarmy. And from today's perspective, she was victim in that relationship as well.  I would say that teacher groomed her for Clinton, TBH.

 

[EtheltoTillie]

On 9/19/2021 at 7:27 PM, AuntieMame said:

@LADreamr

. I hate that as a society we destroyed Monica Lewinsky and did so pretty much without mercy. Yes, I know she’s married and still wealthy but she is forever held in contempt and in ways other mistresses have not.

Uh

How did this get made? I can’t imagine that the Clintons are thrilled. 

 

Monica has never been married.  I feel bad for her, in that she could likely never find a man who wants to be known as the husband of President Clinton's notorious mistress. 

[AuntieMame]

22 hours ago, GussieK said:

Monica has never been married.  I feel bad for her, in that she could likely never find a man who wants to be known as the husband of President Clinton's notorious mistress. 

I learned that Monica has never married, never had kids, even though she says she wanted both. Even when she went to London for graduate school and a new start she has had trouble getting a job. Monica has had to rely on her parents financially for much of her life, I learned. I’m appalled. Dear God it seriously would have been kinder if we’d just publicly executed this woman. Not because she deserved it but because what was done to Monica is the very definition of the punishment not fitting the crime. Monica lost pretty much everything in her entire life forevermore because of this. Excepting Hester Prynne or Tess ( who’re fictional!) I don’t recall another mistress getting this kind of treatment. I don’t know how the woman is still sane. It’s like she survived her own murder. 
Worst of all? It isn’t even the adultery for which Monica is being punished, not really, it’s that Monica, beautiful as she is, didn’t fit the physical definition of a powerful man’s mistress. Think about what was said at the time. I feel so bad for this woman. She’s 48. She isn’t having children at this point. Even if she met someone tomorrow and married, what ten to twelve good years before old age starts to set in? No memories of a lifetime together. No career or vocation that allowed her to work and grow as a person. No income. To this day the only money she is allowed to make surrounds this one incident. For Monica no memories of a life at all. Just her constant struggle to survive this experience, that never ends. 
I have personal history that gives me special empathy both for being scapegoated and for being a plump and pretty woman and just how much everyone hates you for that. Back in the nineties I refused to read the Starr report as my own personal protest and what little support I could give a woman I didn’t know and for whom I couldn’t yet articulate the reasons for my compassion and outrage at her situation. 
We destroyed this woman utterly as a society and as the individuals that pulled the levers and set the satanic mills in motion. We all know that not all “royal” mistresses are treated this badly either. Hell, there are some women who would still be dining out on the wink of their affair with a powerful man. 
As for the show itself? Im going with mediocre so far. Beanie isn’t working for me and I’d like more nuance in the portrayal of Linda Tripp. Im still not getting much of an idea of her motives. But I’m grateful to the show for making me revisit such a public scapegoating and excoriation. It’s really making me think. 

Edited September 22, 2021 by AuntieMame
Autocorrect and typos.

[Milburn Stone]

17 minutes ago, AuntieMame said:

I learned that Monica has never married, never had kids, even though she says she wanted both. Even when she went to London for graduate school and a new start she has had trouble getting a job...Monica is the very definition of the punishment not fitting the crime...

I don't think anyone is out to punish ML. People are making rational choices, and she's bearing the brunt of it. If you were a potential suitor, would you feel comfortable marrying a woman with a history of sleeping with other women's husbands? If you were a potential employer, would you feel comfortable hiring a woman who might seduce the boss?

Monica is not the only one to blame for what happened. Not by a long shot. On the other hand, what happened, happened because of choices she made. People change a lot after they're 22, and then again in some ways they don't. To guess whether she'd changed enough to make her a good marital or employment prospect, you'd have to roll the dice. It would be nice if somebody did, but the reasons for not are understandable.

 

[chocolatine]

I really don't believe that there was this international conspiracy to deny Monica a job or a husband. Marriage and children aren't in the cards for everyone who wants them, even for "regular" people. And a lot of people who have family money choose not to work a traditional, full-time job. Monica could have withdrawn completely from the public eye if the fallout from the Clinton affair was that traumatizing for her, but she didn't, so obviously there are some aspects of media attention that she enjoys.

[AuntieMame]

2 hours ago, Picture It. Sicily said:

Honestly, this is the argument that makes me feel like Monica is full of crap and blaming her failure to launch on others. No one on earth was willing to hire her? Seriously? She's the only political scandal mistress who society couldn't let move on with her life? She had twenty years of little to no press. If she couldn't get her life together, part of her didn't want to. 

It’s my understanding that in one of her repeated attempts to get her life together that she set sail for London and graduate work at the London School of Economics. New degree in hand she did attempt to get hired. This is also at a point when she was out of the public eye. Nobody would hire her. But in some ways your point is well taken because I did read of her turning down job offers that the president got her. I was a little shocked and this is the difference between a hungry person and someone with choices. I would never have turned down a job at the UN in my early twenties. I would have gone as an entry level secretary with a skip in my step. This was before the scandal broke and Monica wasn’t poison yet but it did raise an eyebrow when I read it today. So I will think about what you said. But the ban has never been lifted. Never. 

I learned that there has been a mention of the Lewinsky scandal in some newspaper in some part of the world Every Day since the story broke. Every day. So yeah, I think we can safely say that no, society isn’t letting Monica move on. And she has tried. 
The interesting question I want to ask is how is a scapegoat chosen? I wonder if there are patterns. 

55 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

I really don't believe that there was this international conspiracy to deny Monica a job or a husband. Marriage and children aren't in the cards for everyone who wants them, even for "regular" people. And a lot of people who have family money choose not to work a traditional, full-time job. Monica could have withdrawn completely from the public eye if the fallout from the Clinton affair was that traumatizing for her, but she didn't, so obviously there are some aspects of media attention that she enjoys.

Mentioned in the press somewhere in the world every day since the story broke. Countless jokes for comedians. Many books. 125 rap song references. I’m not saying that there’s anything directing this but it is a society wielding the flog. Your point about the media gives me something to ponder. She did leave the public eye for a decade this century but you’re right, she does seem to want that kind of job and A-List Media Life. I’ll think about that. Not that there’s necessarily anything wrong with that. But what else is left to her? She tried for a normal life and got blackballed. She’s only been able to make money on her notoriety. 

While writing this I figured out what bothers me about Beanie’s performance. It isn’t the right kind of innocence and naïveté. Beanie is playing Monica like she’s a farm girl from somewhere. Monica was immature and had issues and was naive but it would have been a different flavor of naive. She was also from upper middle class Los Angeles. I don’t see any of that in Beanie’s portrayal. 

Edited September 23, 2021 by AuntieMame

[AllyB]

I'm a few years younger than Monica. I was 19-20 when the story broke and a journalism student. My main feeling on it, with the pomposity of a journalism student, was that it wasn't a story. That while I don't like cheating, ultimately they were two consenting adults and only they, Hilary and to some extent Chelsea, really should be caring about it. As an independent sexually active young woman, I viewed Monica as similar to me in that she was a woman exercising her own sexual choices. And while I would not make the decision to have an affair with a married man, because I don't want to play a part in causing his wife pain, I just saw it as a woman making a choice to have sex with a man she found attractive. And while I did not find Bill attractive, I could see that he was obviously charismatic. I had sex with men I found attractive and there was nothing wrong with that, so I couldn't comprehend how a woman older than me could have been a victim of a man abusing and extreme power imbalance. 
 

As a woman in my 40s, out the other side of an abusive marriage with a man I began a relationship with 23, I have a very, very different take on their 'relationship.' She was 22, too young to even have a fully developed brain. He was 'the most powerful man in the world,' over twice her age and her boss. While I'm not suggesting that she was a completely naive victim who is blameless for her role, the fact is that there was a power imbalance there that would overwhelm so many in her position. Couple that with the fact that with his clear charm and the fact that his history has accusations from women of him being a man who at best has a massive sense of entitlement to sexual gratification from the women around him. And I do see Monica as more victim than sexually active woman making a bad but free choice.
 

[kassa]

 

On 9/16/2021 at 12:39 PM, iMonrey said:

She was naive, for sure, and Clinton was definitely a predator. But Monica was 22. Not 16, not 18. A grown woman of 22 with a college degree. It's hard for me to alleviate her of any responsibility. She doesn't strike me as being woefully ignorant or sheltered. Yeah love makes you do dumb things but where did she think this was going? I feel bad for what she went through in the media but it's not like someone kidnapped her and forced her to do these things. She made some really bad choices and suffered the consequences. 

I'm about 10 years older than she is and I remember thinking that she was an adult making (bad) adult decisions, but they were hers to make and they were two consenting adults.  Decades older, now that I'm about the age HE was at the time, I see how incredibly unequal they were.

For historical perspective for the younger folks -  this was the mid-90s. The web was only a few years old.  Fox news and MSNBC were both only a year or two old. The OJ trial had taken place a couple of years before, sucking up every ounce of media attention, but by then it was over, the 24 hr news cycle had begun, late night comedians and the media beast needed to be fed. And the best thing for every one of them needing fresh daily material was being able to revisit the SAME story night after night, breaking this fresh bit of news/gossip, replaying THAT bit of news/gossip, showing what everybody ELSE was saying about this or that piece of news/gossip. If the Tonight Show had a feature called The Dancing Itos during a feckin MURDER trial, you can imagine how they ran with an oral sex scandal.

[Tdoc72]

On 9/14/2021 at 11:42 PM, peridot said:

Monica comes across as unhinged.  Traveling long distances and waiting hours for a glimpse, staying in her apartment all the time waiting for a call, flashing her thong where anyone could see!?  I wish she was smarter about being caught in Bill's web.  I'm surprised she wasn't even trying to be discreet.

I was thinking “ why doesn’t she just use her cell phone so she can leave the house” before remembering that it was 1998 and they weren’t a thing yet. 

On 9/15/2021 at 11:58 AM, LADreamr said:

Also, it wasn't just his position and power.  He has a magnetism that I've even heard a number of straight men who have met him say that they felt it too, and completely understand the effect he has on some women.

Years after he was president, my mom went to hear him give a speech. She liked him, voted for him 2x, but said she never really found him attractive. While making small talk w/some others in a hallway afterwards, the Secret Servive came and asked everyone to stand against the wall as Clinton would be coming down the hall. My mom made eye contact with him for a second and said she felt a zap of attraction.  She said he was magnetic and then she understood why people always said that about him. 

On 9/15/2021 at 6:48 PM, iMonrey said:

 

Annaleigh Ashford is one of the few bright spots as Paula Jones. I'm assuming she's wearing a fake nose. 

She is, but her real nose is isn’t all that small and probably would’ve been fine. 

On 9/17/2021 at 7:31 PM, Sir RaiderDuck OMS said:

Owen is a good actor and has Clinton's Arkansas accent (which some impressionist once described as "Jimmy Carter with a touch of Elvis") down pat, but looks nothing like the man. Having seen Clinton in person and shaken his hand, I can verify that his charisma was off the charts, and Owen doesn't really capture that either. I almost wish they'd gotten Darrell Hammond (who did a great comedic Clinton on Saturday Night Live for years), but Hammond might not have been able to handle the dramatic stuff.

Owen is doing the accent but not the looks IMO. I agree w/you on Darrell Hammond.  He played the evil guy in an episode of Law&Order:Criminal Intent so he could’ve been good here. It would be interesting to see who they considered casting before getting to CO. 

Edited September 25, 2021 by Tdoc72

[AllyB]

13 hours ago, kassa said:

For historical perspective for the younger folks -  this was the mid-90s. The web was only a few years old.  Fox news and MSNBC were both only a year or two old. The OJ trial had taken place a couple of years before, sucking up every ounce of media attention, but by then it was over, the 24 hr news cycle had begun, late night comedians and the media beast needed to be fed. And the best thing for every one of them needing fresh daily material was being able to revisit the SAME story night after night, breaking this fresh bit of news/gossip, replaying THAT bit of news/gossip, showing what everybody ELSE was saying about this or that piece of news/gossip. If the Tonight Show had a feature called The Dancing Itos during a feckin MURDER trial, you can imagine how they ran with an oral sex scandal.

And it wasn't just a national scandal. It was everywhere in the world. I'm Irish and at the time Lewinsky and her association with stained blue dresses and blow jobs was the ongoing joke of 98/99. It was a topic of constant lewd flirting, jokes in bars, magazines, etc. Our national broadcaster had a news crew in a 24 hour internet cafe to interview the crowds of people who were staying up all night to read the Kenneth Starr report as it became available. Part of the bad timing for her too is that news of the affair broke at a time where all western societies were becoming more vocal about sex and sexuality. Major tv shows like Friends, and Frasier had been regularly showing their female characters as being unashamed about occasional/frequent casual sex for the previous few years. And mid-98 Sex and the City started. It meant that Gen X women were speaking completely openly about their sexual tastes and experiences, not just with each other, but to men. We would happily joke about this with friends, co-workers, even barmen and bouncers, people we'd just met, etc. The full on details of their affair were literally shouted about in a way that even at the start of the decade people would have been slightly more circumspect about. There was little innuendo in the comments about their affair, it was open, graphic and loud.

It's not surprising at all that Lewinsky was unable to start a new life in London. She was no less infamous there than she was at home. Monica Lewinsky was a byword for blowjobs and wet spots. And I don't think changing her name would have helped as she is a very distinctive looking woman. This tarnished her whole life in a way that really wasn't fair. While Bill, the one who bears most responsibility, got off so much lighter. And this is not something which has gotten better for women in the intervening decades.

[Ohiopirate02]

12 hours ago, Tdoc72 said:

I was thinking “ why doesn’t she just use her cell phone so she can leave the house” before remembering that it was 1998 and they weren’t a thing yet. 

Cellphones started to really become a thing around 98.  I would have thought that Monica had enough disposable income to afford a flip phone.  My middleclass mother had one in 98.

[AuntieMame]

20 hours ago, AllyB said:

I'm a few years younger than Monica. I was 19-20 when the story broke and a journalism student. My main feeling on it, with the pomposity of a journalism student, was that it wasn't a story. That while I don't like cheating, ultimately they were two consenting adults and only they, Hilary and to some extent Chelsea, really should be caring about it. As an independent sexually active young woman, I viewed Monica as similar to me in that she was a woman exercising her own sexual choices. And while I would not make the decision to have an affair with a married man, because I don't want to play a part in causing his wife pain, I just saw it as a woman making a choice to have sex with a man she found attractive. And while I did not find Bill attractive, I could see that he was obviously charismatic. I had sex with men I found attractive and there was nothing wrong with that, so I couldn't comprehend how a woman older than me could have been a victim of a man abusing and extreme power imbalance. 
 

As a woman in my 40s, out the other side of an abusive marriage with a man I began a relationship with 23, I have a very, very different take on their 'relationship.' She was 22, too young to even have a fully developed brain. He was 'the most powerful man in the world,' over twice her age and her boss. While I'm not suggesting that she was a completely naive victim who is blameless for her role, the fact is that there was a power imbalance there that would overwhelm so many in her position. Couple that with the fact that with his clear charm and the fact that his history has accusations from women of him being a man who at best has a massive sense of entitlement to sexual gratification from the women around him. And I do see Monica as more victim than sexually active woman making a bad but free choice.
 

And honestly, how hard would it be for any woman to turn down a president? When so much of Women’s self esteem is based on how men view us. The positive sexual regard of a man, the love of a man is given as our raison d’etre. And it is. That’s not right but it is another of those assumptions so believed we don’t even see them. The love of a man will remove the stain of being female from us. We’re slaves to love. I doubt very much that I could’ve turned down a president at that age. And the difference in power, maturity, life experience and sexual entitlement are so vast they’re barely even comprehensible. 
Monica wasn’t consenting to be Clinton’s anxiety relief and sex toy object, Monica was consenting to some sort of relationship that in all likelihood never actually existed. Clinton wanted her to be the discreet equivalent of a live sex doll. They weren’t even on the same page.

Edited September 25, 2021 by AuntieMame
Typos

[Ohiopirate02]

1 hour ago, AuntieMame said:

And honestly, how hard would it be for any woman to turn down a president? When so much of Women’s self esteem is based on how men view us. The positive sexual regard of a man, the love of a man is given as our raison d’etre. And it is. That’s not right but it is another of those assumptions so believed we don’t even see them. The love of a man will remove the stain of being female from us. We’re slaves to love. I doubt very much that I could’ve turned down a president at that age. And the difference in power, maturity, life experience and sexual entitlement are so vast they’re barely even comprehensible. 
Monica wasn’t consenting to be Clinton’s anxiety relief and sex toy object, Monica was consenting to some sort of relationship that in all likelihood never actually existed. Clinton wanted her to be the discreet equivalent of a live sex doll. They weren’t even on the same page.

I was in high school when this story broke, and my 17-18 year old brain completely understood why Monica did what she did.  The most powerful man in the world is flirting with you, that's some heady stuff.  The same thing happened with Kathleen Willey as a grown woman.  You get caught up in the moment and are giddy as hell, but when you come down from that high, you begin to realize how messed up the situation really was.  

[qtpye]

3 hours ago, AuntieMame said:

And honestly, how hard would it be for any woman to turn down a president? When so much of Women’s self esteem is based on how men view us. The positive sexual regard of a man, the love of a man is given as our raison d’etre. And it is. That’s not right but it is another of those assumptions so believed we don’t even see them. The love of a man will remove the stain of being female from us. We’re slaves to love. I doubt very much that I could’ve turned down a president at that age. And the difference in power, maturity, life experience and sexual entitlement are so vast they’re barely even comprehensible. 
Monica wasn’t consenting to be Clinton’s anxiety relief and sex toy object, Monica was consenting to some sort of relationship that in all likelihood never actually existed. Clinton wanted her to be the discreet equivalent of a live sex doll. They weren’t even on the same page.

I just wanted to highlight this because it was so well said. I remember growing up and many women feeling that they were nothing without a boyfriend or husband no matter how impressive their accomplishments were in other areas. 

[helenamonster]

I definitely had a few friends like Monica in my early 20s. I can't say I ever exhibited any similar behaviors myself (not because I'm above them, just because there wasn't anybody in my life at the time to inspire them), but I have spent long hours trying to talk friends down from similar situations. The only difference is that the people they were into were relatively inconsequential and not, you know, the President. It was also much easier for them to keep tabs on the object of their affection with social media and living locally. Monica couldn't even call him herself, had to stay at home to wait for him to call as she didn't have a cell phone, and doing that whole "look at us spontaneously and organically meeting here, I definitely am not stalking you!" thing meant crossing state lines with his busy schedule.

The thing is, per this episode, it did seem like she was learning a lesson that a lot of people her age have to learn: he's just not that into you, and you're acting like a crazy person. She seemed ready to put it behind her and get on with her life. And I think if Linda hadn't been whispering in her ear to just hang in there, she probably would have. When the girl from Portland came to visit her, I was so glad to see it seemed like she had a real friend who was telling her the home truths she needed to her, but it didn't seem like she had anybody in DC to be that person, and it was harder to stay in touch with people long distance than it is now, even though it wasn't really that long ago (it wasn't, ok?????).

I do think the insecurity about her physical appearance also played a part as well. I think she was cute back then (and still is now) but she did not fit the mould of what was considered conventionally attractive in the late '90s (thin, preferably blonde). She took the attention where she could get it.

Also, from the interviews I've seen of Monica over the years, she seems more than willing to take responsibility for her part in this. She was young, but not a child. He was the president, but it was consensual on her end, though of course that crazy power imbalance does complicate things. But I've never heard her mention being afraid of losing her job or getting blackballed for not being receptive to his advances, which happens to a lot of people who get hit on by their boss. She fucked up in the way a lot of people do, but the stakes were just so much higher for her. She seems to be in a better, more stable place now, and honestly good for her.

Annaleigh Ashford really is wonderful. "The Supreme Court allows people to kill their children." "Oh my gosh, no way!" I snorted. And I'm always happy to see Judith Light, and eager for her to lean more into comedy/camp for this season (in Versace she was obviously doing much more dramatic work, but of course killing it).

Cobie as Ann Coulter is also inspired. The way she just spits her lines out like that is transcendent. Woman is mean to her bones.

I would watch an entire separate series about Linda's cubiclemate. Is she a real person? Where is she now? I'm obsessed.

[AuntieMame]

1 hour ago, qtpye said:

I just wanted to highlight this because it was so well said. I remember growing up and many women feeling that they were nothing without a boyfriend or husband no matter how impressive their accomplishments were in other areas. 

Thank you @qtpye. I appreciate that because it’s been a lot of years of thinking and observation and trying to figure out how women work emotionally. 

[CSunshine76]

On 9/15/2021 at 5:29 AM, Spartan Girl said:

Exactly! Fixating on/having an affair with a married man was wrong, but it takes two to tango. He was older, he was married, he should have known better. The second she blabbed about having a crush on him, he could have set her straight and maintained those boundaries but he didn’t.

Not to mention he’s the most powerful man in America (arguably the world), and she’s an intern. 

[AllyB]

17 hours ago, AuntieMame said:

Monica wasn’t consenting to be Clinton’s anxiety relief and sex toy object, Monica was consenting to some sort of relationship that in all likelihood never actually existed. Clinton wanted her to be the discreet equivalent of a live sex doll. They weren’t even on the same page.

Something that I was learning during this exact time period was that there are men who have a particular type of ego, that are not ok with women who are able to have sex with them and move on. They actually need the women they have sex with to 'love' them, even when they do not want to love them back. I was involved with such a man at this point. He was part of my social group, I found him very attractive but knew he was not 'boyfriend material.' I was more than happy to have a FWB type arrangement with him, though we didn't have that kind of language to describe it in 98. I thought this would suit him too, but he talked me into a more standard relationship and then instantly, as soon as I agreed, he backed right off. It confused the hell out of me for a while. But over the years I understand it as a man who's ego was too fragile to accept that women could have sex with him without needing him.

I suspect Bill was like this. I think he liked keeping Monica around as a hanger-on. Her 'need' for him was the greater draw than the sexual parts of the relationship. Not that he didn't enjoy the sexual gratification but that gratification came more from being with a woman who loved and needed him, pined for him when he was gone than just the pure physical act. If Monica had a matter of fact, "I'm attracted to you and happy to have sex when it's mutually convenient and mutually satisfactory to both of us. In the mean time, I'll be getting on with my life and not thinking too much about you," type of attitude, Bill would not have been so drawn to her. He created a neediness in her because it was the neediness that gave him the most gratification. He didn't want a woman who viewed herself as an equal, he likely felt he had too much of that in his marriage. 

[AuntieMame]

4 hours ago, AllyB said:

Something that I was learning during this exact time period was that there are men who have a particular type of ego, that are not ok with women who are able to have sex with them and move on. They actually need the women they have sex with to 'love' them, even when they do not want to love them back. I was involved with such a man at this point. He was part of my social group, I found him very attractive but knew he was not 'boyfriend material.' I was more than happy to have a FWB type arrangement with him, though we didn't have that kind of language to describe it in 98. I thought this would suit him too, but he talked me into a more standard relationship and then instantly, as soon as I agreed, he backed right off. It confused the hell out of me for a while. But over the years I understand it as a man who's ego was too fragile to accept that women could have sex with him without needing him.

I suspect Bill was like this. I think he liked keeping Monica around as a hanger-on. Her 'need' for him was the greater draw than the sexual parts of the relationship. Not that he didn't enjoy the sexual gratification but that gratification came more from being with a woman who loved and needed him, pined for him when he was gone than just the pure physical act. If Monica had a matter of fact, "I'm attracted to you and happy to have sex when it's mutually convenient and mutually satisfactory to both of us. In the mean time, I'll be getting on with my life and not thinking too much about you," type of attitude, Bill would not have been so drawn to her. He created a neediness in her because it was the neediness that gave him the most gratification. He didn't want a woman who viewed herself as an equal, he likely felt he had too much of that in his marriage. 

That’s incredibly insightful @AllyB. And people say sex like this is just transactional. Because another little strand of this is the hunch that there were more feelings on both sides in this affair than the decades of jokes would imply. 

[Guest]

Please use this thread to discuss Season 3, Episode 2 of American Crime Story and only that.

[Ms Blue Jay]

On 9/14/2021 at 11:10 PM, Spartan Girl said:

Cobie is KILLING it as that hag Ann.

I agree.  I take back what I said in the thread for episode 1.  

[Ms Blue Jay]

On 9/15/2021 at 3:31 PM, tvfanatic13 said:

I have met Clinton. I can tell you that this lesbian wanted to jump into bed with him! Oozing charisma. 
I am not seeing Beanie as Monica. She looks too childlike/immature. 
Love Colbie as Coulter. And all I see is Edie Falco- no Hillary whatsoever. Loving SP as Tripp. 

LOL!  

 

On 9/15/2021 at 7:16 PM, Empress1 said:

When Monica’s friend was like “why are you telling people?!” I was like “girl, right?”

A few anachronistic things that bother me.  I DO NOT think Monica's friend is styled at all like someone in the 90s.

Also, I do not think that there were white kitchens with gigantic islands and gold fixtures like that.  That looked like a modern kitchen today.

I lived through the 90s and I'm watching 90s sitcoms and movies constantly so those things really stuck out to me.

[Ms Blue Jay]

On 9/16/2021 at 2:54 PM, MamaMax said:

Honestly, I'm getting annoyed with all of the scenes of Linda and Bill telling Monica she's beautiful, because Monica's involved with the show, but this is a very good picture.

On 9/19/2021 at 3:08 PM, Milburn Stone said:

That Tom and Lorenzo take really irritates me. They seem to be saying not only that Sarah Paulson wasn't the only actress who could play this, but that casting her was ethically wrong. How very woke of them. And, of course, stupid.

I agree with them.  It's dehumanizing to refuse to cast an overweight actor to play an overweight part as if they don't exist.  It's ridiculous and stubborn.  It's treating being plus size as a costume that Sarah Paulson can take on and off whereas other women live their whole existence like that.  

Edited September 29, 2021 by Ms Blue Jay

[ifionlyknew]

On 9/25/2021 at 11:07 AM, AuntieMame said:

Monica wasn’t consenting to be Clinton’s anxiety relief and sex toy object, Monica was consenting to some sort of relationship that in all likelihood never actually existed. Clinton wanted her to be the discreet equivalent of a live sex doll. They weren’t even on the same page.

I agree with this.  Clinton was telling her things she wanted to hear so he could use her.  Monica I'm sure didn't want to believe that was what was happening and Linda egging her on definitely didn't help.    I wonder at what point did Monica realize what happened with Clinton was simply about him getting what he wanted.

[greekmom]

I had to stop watching for a bit.

What happened to Monica was terrible.  The girl was freaking 21 years old.

I hope Linda Tripp is rotting in hell. I don't use the word often but Linda is, was and will always be a cunt.

[SarahPrtr]

On 9/25/2021 at 9:40 PM, AllyB said:

It's not surprising at all that Lewinsky was unable to start a new life in London. She was no less infamous there than she was at home. Monica Lewinsky was a byword for blowjobs and wet spots.

Yeah, I remember an episode of L&O: SVU, where a modelling agent said that a model "'Lewinsky-d' him."

 

I was looking forward to watching this episode SO much because I saw that Mira Sorvino was going to play Monica's mother... only to find that she was in it for two seconds!!! What?!!  I think she would have been great as Ann Coulter, but Mira's 54 years old now, and Ann was in her late 30s when this happened, so maybe they didn't think that she could pull off being someone in her 30s.  What a shame.

 

[mytmo]

The actor portraying Bill Clinton makes him appear scary and not charismatic in a sexual way.  The actress portraying Monica is making her more like a deer in the headlights all the time.  I don't know however who would make better replacements.

And I can believe Monica being manipulated by Linda Tripp.  Unfortunately there are a number of older women that play the role of mentor that are really just patting your back looking for the soft spot to place the knife.  I've known it personally starting out in my career.

I'm just 4 years older than Monica and back then the beauty standard was Monica and Rachel from Friends.  At a size 14 you might as well have been the size of a house.  So out of context.  Weight Watchers and Slimfast were diet staples in most women's diets.  Today is much more accepting of a woman with curves thank God!  

[qtpye]

5 minutes ago, mytmo said:

The actor portraying Bill Clinton makes him appear scary and not charismatic in a sexual way.  The actress portraying Monica is making her more like a deer in the headlights all the time.  I don't know however who would make better replacements.

And I can believe Monica being manipulated by Linda Tripp.  Unfortunately there are a number of older women that play the role of mentor that are really just patting your back looking for the soft spot to place the knife.  I've known it personally starting out in my career.

I'm just 4 years older than Monica and back then the beauty standard was Monica and Rachel from Friends.  At a size 14 you might as well have been the size of a house.  So out of context.  Weight Watchers and Slimfast were diet staples in most women's diets.  Today is much more accepting of a woman with curves thank God!  

When I was growing up the standard was Kate Moss and heroin chic. You could not be too skinny.

A lot of really beautiful curvy girls in my school felt bad about themselves and dieted to meet this unrealistic standard.

The funny thing is the real Bill Clinton probably could sympathize about dieting since he tended to be a little chubby himself. 

Clive Owen...not so much.

[chocolatine]

5 hours ago, qtpye said:

When I was growing up the standard was Kate Moss and heroin chic. You could not be too skinny.

A lot of really beautiful curvy girls in my school felt bad about themselves and dieted to meet this unrealistic standard.

The funny thing is the real Bill Clinton probably could sympathize about dieting since he tended to be a little chubby himself. 

Clive Owen...not so much.

IIRC, Bill Clinton did speak out against that trend at the time. He called it "heroin chic."

[qtpye]

17 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

IIRC, Bill Clinton did speak out against that trend at the time. He called it "heroin chic."

Yes, it makes me glad that the fashion magazines do not have near the power they did 20 years ago in young girl's lives but sometimes social media can be just as toxic.