S01.E06: What If... Killmonger Rescued Tony Stark?

[formerlyfreedom]

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An American soldier called Killmonger rescues Tony Stark when his Humvee is attacked in Afghanistan.

Dropping Wednesday, September 15, 2021.

 

[Dandesun]

Killmonger and General Ross teaming up with Tony Stark tech is a nightmare, no doubt. Although anytime Ross gets screwed is delightful.

But Shuri and Pepper teaming up? Now I’m interested.

[AnimeMania]

A very complex and intricately woven story, even if not very realistic.

[phalange]

Killmonger was really playing the long game here, ingratiating himself with Tony then killing T'Challa, Rhodey, and Tony and making the U.S. and Wakanda believe the other country killed their country's civilians.

I like Shuri and Pepper seeing through it all and teaming up to expose the truth.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

32 minutes ago, phalange said:

Killmonger was really playing the long game here, ingratiating himself with Tony then killing T'Challa, Rhodey, and Tony and making the U.S. and Wakanda believe the other country killed their country's civilians.

I like Shuri and Pepper seeing through it all and teaming up to expose the truth.

I was waiting for him to turn on T'Chaka, honestly, but in this timeline his father must have died some other way. When he re-activated the drones once they were past the barrier, I thought they  would kill everyone and he'd take the throne for himself.

Also, The Watcher was in full view in this one. Will he be interacting more with the characters in the next episodes?

[arc]

RDJ's soundalike ... doesn't. Neither does Gwyneth Paltrow's. I guess they also decided not to use actor-accurate likenesses either. Then again that's actual Don Cheadle and animated Rhodey doesn't really look like Don Cheadle. Anyways, I think it was a mistake to put such a Tony-heavy episode on a guy who doesn't sound like RDJ. It's a huge uncanny valley experience that detracts a lot from the experience.

Also, the non-superhero-action animation leaves a bunch to be desired here. Marvel was doing this on the cheap and it shows in how weird the animation timings were IMO. To be clear, everything is perfectly adequate, nothing's grossly off, but it's subtly off all over the place.

Quote

- What? I like anime.

- Worst-case scenario, we'll end up with the world's most expensive Gundam model.

ROFL

Andy Serkis definiteily sounds like Klaue. Good job there.

Up to halfway through the episode I was wondering if the divergence point meant Killmonger wouldn't break bad in this universe, but I guess not. It was cold-blooded to murder Rhodey and then attend his funeral.

In that drone-Killmonger fight, why didn't the killer drone use ranged weapons? Why did Tony die from a stab to the shoulder? Is there even anywhere else on the torso that's further from key internal organs???

Killmonger having "invented 21st century warfare" kinda ignores how real life America makes heavy use of drone (plane) warfare. (And on a slightly less realistic note, Sacred Timeline Tony Stark invented killer non-humanoid drones as seen in Spider-Man Far From Home, because if you want to kill people with drones, you basically just need them to be able to move and shoot. Human style martial arts are ridiculously unnecessary.)

It's also ridiculous that these things need plane transport when Iron Man style tech can fly across the globe just powered by arc reactors.

"Only you can avenge Tony Stark" -- man, I get that even pre-Iron Man Tony was popular in-universe but this is ludicrous. Imagine asking young Americans to avenge any real-life American billionaire/arms dealer. 

This is a really minor thing but I'm bummed the show didn't animate Pepper's crazy kinetic sculpture from Iron Man 2.

52 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

I was waiting for him to turn on T'Chaka, honestly, but in this timeline his father must have died some other way.

Yeah, I was waiting for that the entire episode and then it never came!!! WTF.

Edited September 15, 2021 by arc

[cambridgeguy]

18 minutes ago, arc said:

Then again that's actual Don Cheadle and animated Rhodey doesn't really look like Don Cheadle. Anyways, I think it was a mistake to put such a Tony-heavy episode on a guy who doesn't sound like RDJ. It's a huge uncanny valley experience that detracts a lot from the experience.

They should have had him look like Terrence Howard.

I wonder what Nick Fury and SHIELD were up to while this was happening.  If Pepper and Shuri were able to figure this out then he should have had an inkling as well.

[Spartan Girl]

Another dark episode. T’Challa, Tony, and Rhodey dead while Wakanda have a snake for their new guardian.

I loathe Kilmonger, so while I’m glad this alternate timeline didn’t make him a hero, I hated that his master plan worked and he got away with everything—for now. At least T’Challa gave him a pretty good “power corrupts and it’ll catch up with you eventually” warning from the afterlife.

Feel robbed that the episode ended before we got to see Shuri and Pepper team up.

[Zonk]

This was more coherent than the last one, but I still don't buy it. It relies on Tony Stark being a dumbass and locking himself in a room with killmonger, with only the drone to protect himself. I don't think Tony would have stayed in the same room and I think he would have had about 20 contingency plans.

4 hours ago, arc said:

Neither does Gwyneth Paltrow's. I guess they also decided not to use actor-accurate likenesses either.

"Decided". Getting the rights to an actors likeness isn't that easy. I'm sure they tried but weren't able to for a reasonable rate.

4 hours ago, arc said:

Andy Serkis definiteily sounds like Klaue. Good job there.

Considering he also plays Klaue in the movies I'd sure hope so.

4 hours ago, arc said:

Why did Tony die from a stab to the shoulder?

I mean you could bleed out, if an artery is hit, but there wasn't any blood, so dunno.

 

 

 

[Racj82]

I don't care about what Fury is up to. Shield didn't need to be part of this.

We don't know if Tony died just from the stab in the shoulder.

I don't have a problem with anything involving Tony. His plan to take killmonger out was fine to me. I'm glad he wasn't completely ignoring killmonger as a threat.

I have yet to have any actual problems for the sub in voice work. They probably can't use to likeness from some of the actors.

I think killmonger wanted T'Chaka to see it all go down. That's the sweeter revenge.

Getting lost in this for one, I love that Suri actually looked like a 15 year old.

The queen got to kick some major ass. Long live Angela Basset. 

People keep pushing for certain women to be the new black Panther. None of them need that mantle. They are full realized and bad ass on their own. 

[tv echo]

If nothing else, this episode proved that there is only one RDJ who can play Tony Stark.

Once again, it was heartbreaking to hear Chadwick Boseman's voice as T'Challa.

Killmonger saved Tony Stark, but then he killed T'Challa and Rhodey - and then he killed Tony as well? I guess Killmonger is a bad guy in this reality as well, but just sneakier. In Black Panther, I actually felt some sympathy for Killmonger. But in this What If episode, I felt no sympathy for Killmonger at all and couldn't stand him.

Thank heavens for Shuri being so smart. But the episode ended without any real resolution!

Where's the sequel? Where are the scenes of Shuri and Pepper fighting back?

This is the third episode in a row that I found dreary and depressing. I'm kinda losing interested in watching any more.

Returning talent: Michael B. Jordan, Chadwick Boseman, Jon Favreau, Don Cheadle, Angela Bassett, Danai Gurai, John Kani, Andy Serkis, Paul Bettany and Leslie Bibb.

Sound-alikes: Mick Wingert (as Tony Stark), Beth Hoyt (as Pepper Potts), Kiff Vandenheuval (as Obadiah Stane), Mike McGill (as General Ross) and Ozioma Akagha (as Shuri).

ETA: 
Killmonger’s ‘What If…?’ Continues Trend Of Marvel Murdering Everyone For Fun
Paul Tassi  September 15, 2021
https://www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/2021/09/15/killmongers-what-if-continues-trend-of-marvel-murdering-everyone-for-fun/?sh=6350a3c346d7 

Edited September 15, 2021 by tv echo

[thuganomics85]

Damn, not many can boast that they killed Tony Stark, T'Challa, and James Rhodey in the span of what was probably only a few days!  Killmonger was already pretty dangerous and deadly in the Black Panther film, but is clearly capable of much, much worse if he gets backing in the form of Starks Industries.  Also pretty crafty since he had almost everyone wrapped around his finger, which might be a bit of a stretch, but I can buy it since T'Chaka and the majority of the Wakandians were probably letting their emotions get the better of them, and of course a U.S. military led by General Ross would always shoot first and not bother asking any questions.  Because Ross?  IS THE WORST!

I'm not sure how much experience he has with voice work, but I thought Michael B. Jordan was one of the better ones out of the movie stars in this series.  Most everyone was good here.  Naturally, Andy Serkis shined in every scene he/Ulysses was in, because voice work is something he is very familiar with!

I'll go against the grain a bit and say that I actually think Tony's actor is doing a good job.  Obviously no one can be Robert Downey Jr., but I think his imitation of him is fine.  Now, the actress playing Pepper though didn't sound anything like Gwyneth Paltrow, but it wasn't enough to ruin it for me.

Get a clearer glimpse of The Watcher here.  Hmm...

At least Pepper and Shuri know whats up and will hopefully find a way to bring down Killmonger.

Three episode in a row that kind of end on a downer note.  Curious if that's going to be a trend now or are we going to get a lighter episode anytime soon.

[ursula]

This was, IMO, the best What-If yet.

My only complaint was that Shuri figuring everything out at the end kinda came out of nowhere since they showed her being as awed as everyone else by Killmonger's bravery at the battle. But maybe the show runners figured 3 bleak endings in a row would be too much.

15 hours ago, arc said:

Why did Tony die from a stab to the shoulder?

Erik pinned Tony by the shoulder but the actual death blow just before the glass fell and shattered was off-screen. It sounded like he was gutted.

Rewatched it and I was wrong.

[arc]

5 hours ago, Zonk said:

Considering he also plays Klaue in the movies I'd sure hope so.

You’d think, but this series has already had a few actors from the movies reprise their roles and yet somehow not sound like themselves.

56 minutes ago, ursula said:

Erik pinned Tony by the shoulder but the actual death blow just before the glass fell and shattered was off-screen. It sounded like he was gutted.

Looked to me like Tony died onscreen. Killmonger grabbed the spear and shoved it deeper into the wall. Then Tony died, then Killmonger made himself a new tally mark. There’s no evidence of any other wound; in fact Tony grabbed at the spear as he died.

[ursula]

1 hour ago, arc said:

 

Looked to me like Tony died onscreen. Killmonger grabbed the spear and shoved it deeper into the wall. Then Tony died, then Killmonger made himself a new tally mark. There’s no evidence of any other wound; in fact Tony grabbed at the spear as he died.

Rewatched it, and you're right! I think I got it confused with T'Challa's death scene. 

[Sakura12]

Are all these going to be What if the villains win scenarios? Even the ones where we see the heroes prevail, the Watcher says an even worst outcome awaits them.

In this one we see Killmonger plan out his attack even more and kill T'Challa, Rhody and Tony and take over Wakanda. Is this going with Dr. Strange's the heroes only win in one outcome out of millions. Every other one they lose? 

[mary2013]

Mick Wingert was the voice actor for Iron Man in the Disney Channel's Avengers cartoon and Spider-Man cartoon.

[Racj82]

3 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Are all these going to be What if the villains win scenarios? Even the ones where we see the heroes prevail, the Watcher says an even worst outcome awaits them.

Do you ask will the villain ever win when your watching these movies?

By nature, heroes are going to win less in these scenarios because we see them winning all the time.

And, it's not like the villains are actually winning. We are seeing the ends of stories that are not complete. The heroes are losing battles but the wars are not lost yet. Except Strange.

Ironically, this where I wanted Black Panther win. I'm glad it ended with Black Panther triumphant in hindsight because of Chadwick but I wanted that first movie to end when Killmonger burned the garden. Have the second movie be about Killmonger's reign with T'Challa building himself back up to take his throne.

[paigow]

What If... Killmonger stole the droid schematics from Mickey Rourke???

[Maren]

That was kind of meh. But man, I am all down for the women being so smart and savvy! Why couldn't we have spent more time on watching Shuri and Pepper work together to save everyone, instead of spending so much time watching Killmonger trick and kill everyone? I just don't enjoy these kinds of stories, especially when there's zero resolution. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 9/15/2021 at 3:01 AM, AnimeMania said:

A very complex and intricately woven story, even if not very realistic.

What was not realistic about it?

On 9/15/2021 at 4:41 AM, arc said:

In that drone-Killmonger fight, why didn't the killer drone use ranged weapons? Why did Tony die from a stab to the shoulder? Is there even anywhere else on the torso that's further from key internal organs???

Killmonger having "invented 21st century warfare" kinda ignores how real life America makes heavy use of drone (plane) warfare. (And on a slightly less realistic note, Sacred Timeline Tony Stark invented killer non-humanoid drones as seen in Spider-Man Far From Home, because if you want to kill people with drones, you basically just need them to be able to move and shoot. Human style martial arts are ridiculously unnecessary.)

It's also ridiculous that these things need plane transport when Iron Man style tech can fly across the globe just powered by arc reactors.

"Only you can avenge Tony Stark" -- man, I get that even pre-Iron Man Tony was popular in-universe but this is ludicrous. Imagine asking young Americans to avenge any real-life American billionaire/arms dealer. 

Could be that the drone didn't have them. It was early in the production process. Could be that the drone/Tony was overconfident. 

Real-life drones aren't powered by vibrranium nor made of vibranium alloy to be nearly indestructible, nor do they have a sophisticated AI controlling their moves, nor are they hive-mind linked. I assume that the Stark Liberators would kick the crap out of the drones shown in Far From Home. 

Iron Man sometimes flies in a Quinjet to save power or for other reasons. so even assuming that the Liberators can fly now (and remember, this is presumably in 2009 or thereabouts, in a reality where Tony didn't necessarily work on tech in the same way or come up with the same solutions,), it might not make sense to have the Liberator legion fly from the U.S. to Wakanda.

If a foreign power came onto American soil and killed any Americans, particularly a hugely popular American, there would be similar calls for avenging. 

On 9/15/2021 at 5:06 AM, cambridgeguy said:

I wonder what Nick Fury and SHIELD were up to while this was happening.  If Pepper and Shuri were able to figure this out then he should have had an inkling as well.

In fairness, only Shuri figured anything out and she then told Pepper. Pepper only had suspicions that Killmonger was sketchy but absolutely no evidence until Shuri showed her. And of course, Shuri is a genius. So it doesn't stand to reason that Nick Fury and SHIELD would have a clue that Killmonger was evil. 

23 hours ago, Zonk said:

This was more coherent than the last one, but I still don't buy it. It relies on Tony Stark being a dumbass and locking himself in a room with killmonger, with only the drone to protect himself. I don't think Tony would have stayed in the same room and I think he would have had about 20 contingency plans.

...

I mean you could bleed out, if an artery is hit, but there wasn't any blood, so dunno.

Even after going through the crucible of his ordeal in the Afghan cave, main MCU Tony Stark could be an overconfident dumbass for a genius, billionaire playboy philanthropist. Exhibit A: his taunting the Mandarin to come at him, bro, and then failing to set up any defenses in case he did. I have no doubt that Tony could and would have thought his vibranium-powered, vibranium-alloy covered drone could easily kill a single person. And he would have gotten away with it too if it hadn't been for Killmonger having a pure vibranium spear. 

The only reason there wasn't blood was it was a cartoon. Obviously the wound went all the way through Tony and he would have to be bleeding.

[Zonk]

20 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Exhibit A: his taunting the Mandarin to come at him, bro, and then failing to set up any defenses in case he did.

The worst movie with the worst writing in the entire MCU, is your prime example?

21 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I have no doubt that Tony could and would have thought his vibranium-powered, vibranium-alloy covered drone could easily kill a single person.

I have a lot of doubts.

[tv echo]

“Power Source” Official Clip | Marvel Studios’ What If…? | Disney+
Marvel Entertainment  Sep 15, 2021

 
 

[cambridgeguy]

1 hour ago, Zonk said:

I have a lot of doubts.

Overconfidence in his own brains and tech is a hallmark of early Tony.  Look at when he designed his suit - when he first tested out the flight boots he sent his unarmored self flying into a wall and should have (at best) spent the next six months in a full body cast.  Then he was stunned when his "completely harmless flight stabilizer" once again sent him flying across the room.  And when he finally did have his suit finished he ignored Jarvis's warning, flew too high, and nearly got himself killed because the suit iced up.

[tennisgurl]

Damn, Kilmonger really knows how to play the long game. This version went even farther than his main universe counterpart, killing Tony, Rodney, and T'Challa in a twenty four hour period while playing the United States and Wakanda like a fiddle, and is now Wakanda's new protector. I kept waiting for him to kill T'Chaka, but then I realized that he probably wants him to watch as he destroys Wakanda after giving the man who killed his son the keys to the kingdom, which is probably even worse. I thought this was a good episode, it used its premise well and while he didn't totally nail it, I thought the guy playing Tony did a pretty good job. Having to follow RDJ cant be easy, but I thought he did well. The lady doing Pepper a bit less so, but it didn't really hurt my enjoyment of the episode. Of course Andy Serkis did great voice work and was delightful as always, and I thought Michael B. Jordan did a great job, especially for someone who I don't think has done much voice work.

No matter the universe, Thunderbolt Ross is always the worst.

Another downer ending with a lot of heroes being killed left and right, but at least with a ray of hope at the end as Pepper and Shuri have figured out what Kilmonger is up to and are going to try and stop him, hopefully before things get even worse, and T'Challa telling him that he will get his just desserts one day, in this life or the next. Most of these endings have actually been pretty depressing, even the first two, the most cheerful episodes, one ended on a bittersweet note and the second ended with their universe possibly being in huge trouble. I have really enjoyed the series and I get why they want to do big things like kill tons of characters that they cant really do in the main universe, but hopefully we will get a more light hearted episode soon.

The Watcher keeps getting more and more visible every episode. Interesting...

Edited September 16, 2021 by tennisgurl

[AnimeMania]

3 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

On 9/15/2021 at 4:01 AM, AnimeMania said:

A very complex and intricately woven story, even if not very realistic.

What was not realistic about it?

It just seemed like a lot of what happened was left to chance. The shotgun blast through the car could have killed Tony Stark. Black Panther might not have show up or might have had some type of ear protection. The robots might have been able to defeat the Wakanda warriors since Killmonger has no idea what their strength or numbers were.

[swanpride]

It was a little bit forced (especially the idea of how Tony would react without the cave thing...because honestly, I always felt that just the fact that the soldiers he joked around with were killed by HIS weapons was what made him change tune more than anything else), but my main issue with this episode was that this was another one which basically ended at the point at which it became interesting. 

[arc]

1 hour ago, AnimeMania said:

Black Panther might not have show up or might have had some type of ear protection.

Klaue specifically leaked the sale to lure a Wakandan (esp BP) response. And while it wasn’t stated, I assumed the sonic weapon was somehow also an anti-vibranium measure, sort of how the canon BP vs Killmonger fight went down in the movie.

[Chyromaniac]

18 hours ago, mary2013 said:

Mick Wingert was the voice actor for Iron Man in the Disney Channel's Avengers cartoon and Spider-Man cartoon.

It looks like he also does some Jack Black characters for cartoons/video games, which unfortunately is more of what I was hearing on this episode.  It feels like the voice is pitched a little too high (here at least) - Tony needs at least a little baritone.

[Chicago Redshirt]

5 hours ago, Zonk said:

The worst movie with the worst writing in the entire MCU, is your prime example?

I have a lot of doubts.

Even if we were to concede that it is the worst movie with the worst writing in the MCU (and as much as I'm not a fan of IM3, I think that Thor: The Dark World easily outdoes it for that title, along with possible others), it remains a canon example that Tony can and does have blinders on when a) someone close to him gets hurt b) it involves his SUPERIOR TECH (shout out to Marvel vs. Capcom fans in the house) or c) he doesn't figure things out that might be obvious to him if he took half a second.

If we want to talk about other canon examples of Tony being overly confident/reckless/a dumbass in better written movies, I'll submit a few more examples:

B. Another poster beat me to in Iron Man how in his testing he slammed himself into a wall and experienced the icing problem because he couldn't be assed with running tests. One could also add his not thinking through intervention in Gomira and nearly getting blown up by the fighter jets/destroying one of them and nearly killing its pilot. And on the political maneuvering side, there was that he had no clue that Stane had largely succeeded at locking him out from his own company by getting an injunction.

C. In IM2, Tony underestimates Ivan Vanko and gives him an inspiration for improving Vanko's tech. He mocks Hammer and essentially goads him into making a drone army. He thought that the secrets to his tech was like a decade away for everyone else, but it was obviously far less than that.

D. In Civil War, Tony lets Team Cap get away even though on paper, Team Iron Man far overpowers them, The only heavy hitter on Team Cap, Wanda, doesn't even have full mastery of her powers. On seeing that Rhodey got hit by a blast meant for Falcon, Tony blasts Falcon at point-blank range. On finding out that Bucky killed his parents, Tony basically loses it and gets his ass beat by Cap and Bucky (I submit) because of a combination of being emotionally overwrought and overconfident.

E. In Age of Ultron, the whole situation with the Ultron is essentially Tony's fault for being too in love with the notion that a series of drones would answer the world's problems without bothering to consider what might happen if the AI went rogue, fell into the wrong hands, etc.

F. He builds another global defense system governed largely by an AI despite the travesty of Ultron. Instead of entrusting it to his best friend and military vet Rhodey, his wife and COO Pepper, or even his security chief Happy, gives the key to this system to a 16-year-old child he liked and had a few adventures with.

MCU Tony is simply not a guy with multiple layers of contingency plans, generally. He's not Batman. IM3 is the only time that comes to mind where he seemingly did much in the way of advanced planning for a situation he himself faced. He is a guy who generally thinks of a plan on the spur of the moment and executes it. Remember from Avengers, when Cap tries to stop him by saying "We need a plan of attack!" and his response is: "Here's my plan: attack." That to me often sums up Tony to a tee.

Getting back to the scenario in What If?, Tony could have turned Killmonger over to the authorities with the evidence he had. He could have turned the evidence that Jarvis had collected over to the authorities automatically if something happened to him. He didn't. He wanted to personally make Killmonger pay for Rhodey. Normally an ordinary or even extraordinary human is not going to have much chance against a killer robot that's made of vibranium alloy. And this particular killer robot had an extra advantage in that its AI had a lot of info about how Killmonger typically fought and could thus theoretically counter his moves. Why would Tony not think that his robot could easily deal with Killmonger?

2 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

It just seemed like a lot of what happened was left to chance. The shotgun blast through the car could have killed Tony Stark. Black Panther might not have show up or might have had some type of ear protection. The robots might have been able to defeat the Wakanda warriors since Killmonger has no idea what their strength or numbers were.

The shotgun blast through the car is the same as in Iron Man, so to the extent that it was lucky that Tony survives, it's lucky in the source material.

Black Panther and the Wakandans were lured to the site purposefully. There's no reason to think that Black Panther would have had ear protection for a weapon that was not widely used and he had no reason to suspect; even if he did, Killmonger might have had another way to deal with him.

Killmonger had exact knowledge of how strong the drone army was because he was instrumental in building and leading it. He presumably had pretty good knowledge of how strong the Wakandan army was even in the short time after he "defected." He also had first-hand knowledge that a drone can be destroyed by someone using a vibranium spear because he himself did that, and he had to know that the Dora Milaje had a pretty much unlimited supply, plus that Wakanda had other advanced weapons.  Killmonger also had some control of the drones still because he was able to re-activate them. He presumably could have de-activated them at any time. So it's pretty clear that he could engineer the battle for Wakanda to prevail ultimately. And hey, even if it might have been hypothetically closer or if the U.S. might have won, I'm sure Killmonger could adapt to that situation too. 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

5 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

It just seemed like a lot of what happened was left to chance.

Speculation: Killmonger framed Obadiah Stane as the one behind the attempt on Tony's life. They never really delve into that since Tony pretty quickly accepts that Stane is guilty and has him hauled away, but Erik needed an in, a way to ingratiate himself with Stark. Not just the danger that had already passed, the active threat, but that there was a traitor still in his midst.

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Speculation: Killmonger framed Obadiah Stane as the one behind the attempt on Tony's life. They never really delve into that since Tony pretty quickly accepts that Stane is guilty and has him hauled away, but Erik needed an in, a way to ingratiate himself with Stark. Not just the danger that had already passed, the active threat, but that there was a traitor still in his midst.

I mean, we know from the main MCU timeline that Stane was behind the attempt on Tony's life there. It could be that Killmonger was behind it in this universe and framed Stane, but there's no way to know for sure. Obadiah would protest his innocence in either case. And the "receipts" Killmonger claimed to have could be forged. I guess we will only know if we revisit this particular universe. Which I hope we do.  

[paigow]

Stane is guilty in both universes. Only Stane could supply The Ten Rings with Stark weaponry.

[arc]

45 minutes ago, paigow said:

Stane is guilty in both universes. Only Stane could supply The Ten Rings with Stark weaponry.

Plus Stane looked guilty as hell in the press conference even before his scheme was revealed.

[Chicago Redshirt]

42 minutes ago, paigow said:

Stane is guilty in both universes. Only Stane could supply The Ten Rings with Stark weaponry.

To be fair, anybody with connections and/or money could buy Stark stuff on the open market or the black market. 

Hypothetically, Killmonger could have bought enough Stark stuff for the ambush and to frame Stane, either on his own or through a connection like Klaue. 

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I mean, we know from the main MCU timeline that Stane was behind the attempt on Tony's life there. It could be that Killmonger was behind it in this universe and framed Stane, but there's no way to know for sure. Obadiah would protest his innocence in either case. And the "receipts" Killmonger claimed to have could be forged. I guess we will only know if we revisit this particular universe. Which I hope we do.  

Elvis and some renegade undead Skrulls could have been behind everything, but the easiest explanation is that Killmonger found evidence of the plot to kidnap/kill Tony and decided that the gratitude of a billionaire arms manufacturer would be very much worth having.  And once he saved Tony, he found other evidence that implicated Stane.

[The Crazed Spruce]

My theory is that Killmonger finding the intel on Stane was this timeline's turning point. He stumbled on the info, and realized that saving Tony and getting in his good graces would help him achieve his goals faster and more effectively than his original plan (the one that played out in Black Panther) would have.

[Chicago Redshirt]

Things in this episode that leave me wondering:

1. Killmonger claims that he found out about the assassination attempt on Stark when he was undercover with the Ten Rings. First of all, it seems strange that a Black American soldier could convincingly go undercover with what I understand to be a Middle Eastern/Asian terrorist organization. Second, in the original MCU, the Ten Rings did not know that the plot was to kill Tony Stark, only that they were to hit that convoy. Did the Ten Rings in this universe know more? Was Killmonger somehow able to put together that the attack was on Tony Stark on his own? If he genuinely knew that the Ten Rings was going to attack Stark in advance, why didn't he do more to prevent it rather than show up in the middle of said attack? 

2. Killmonger tells Tony he lost his father to gang violence. In the MCU, it was T'Chaka who killed his father, and Killmonger knows this. Does What If? Killmonger not know this and legitimately think that his father died in gang violence? Did the death happen differently in this universe? Is Killmonger just telling Tony what he thinks Tony wants to hear? I assume it's the latter.

3. Along similar lines, does T'Chaka seemingly has guilty vibes about orphaning his nephew. It seems like it might have been a good idea for him to let people know on the secret that he killed his brother and left Erik to fend for himself. (An aside: I don't remember if anything in the MCU established what happened to Killmonger's mom).

4. In the MCU, Wakanda is thought to be a simple generic African country as opposed to a technological wonderland. So it seems like engineering a war shouldn't work. On the U.S. side, it seems like they would be slow to believe that Wakanda massacred their soldiers, and on the Wakandan said, even the death of T'Challa is probably not something that would cause them to go to an open war (as opposed to more targeted or covert strikes). It also seems like there would have to be more diplomatic efforts before war could be on the table.

[arc]

3 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

First of all, it seems strange that a Black American soldier could convincingly go undercover with what I understand to be a Middle Eastern/Asian terrorist organization. Second, in the original MCU, the Ten Rings did not know that the plot was to kill Tony Stark, only that they were to hit that convoy. Did the Ten Rings in this universe know more? Was Killmonger somehow able to put together that the attack was on Tony Stark on his own? If he genuinely knew that the Ten Rings was going to attack Stark in advance, why didn't he do more to prevent it rather than show up in the middle of said attack? 

All the way back in the One-Shot “All Hail The King”, the Ten Rings already had non-Asian members in good standing.

Killmonger may have opted for maximum impact (on Stark) rather than a potentially more effective pre-emption on the whole attack because what he wanted out of this wasn’t just for Tony Stark to live, but for Stark to be grateful to him.

[CailynA]

It looks like Killmonger had a smaller blade in his hand just street we see Tony for. Our family thought he'd stabbed him somewhere other than the shoulder when he pushed the spear in further

[johntfs]

6 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Things in this episode that leave me wondering:

1. Killmonger claims that he found out about the assassination attempt on Stark when he was undercover with the Ten Rings. First of all, it seems strange that a Black American soldier could convincingly go undercover with what I understand to be a Middle Eastern/Asian terrorist organization. Second, in the original MCU, the Ten Rings did not know that the plot was to kill Tony Stark, only that they were to hit that convoy. Did the Ten Rings in this universe know more? Was Killmonger somehow able to put together that the attack was on Tony Stark on his own? If he genuinely knew that the Ten Rings was going to attack Stark in advance, why didn't he do more to prevent it rather than show up in the middle of said attack? 

2. Killmonger tells Tony he lost his father to gang violence. In the MCU, it was T'Chaka who killed his father, and Killmonger knows this. Does What If? Killmonger not know this and legitimately think that his father died in gang violence? Did the death happen differently in this universe? Is Killmonger just telling Tony what he thinks Tony wants to hear? I assume it's the latter.

3. Along similar lines, does T'Chaka seemingly has guilty vibes about orphaning his nephew. It seems like it might have been a good idea for him to let people know on the secret that he killed his brother and left Erik to fend for himself. (An aside: I don't remember if anything in the MCU established what happened to Killmonger's mom).

4. In the MCU, Wakanda is thought to be a simple generic African country as opposed to a technological wonderland. So it seems like engineering a war shouldn't work. On the U.S. side, it seems like they would be slow to believe that Wakanda massacred their soldiers, and on the Wakandan said, even the death of T'Challa is probably not something that would cause them to go to an open war (as opposed to more targeted or covert strikes). It also seems like there would have to be more diplomatic efforts before war could be on the table.

1.  As noted below the Ten Rings had multiple ethnic group and in our real world we had John Walker as American Taliban.  Also, personally saving the billionaire mid-attack nets more gratitude than making a phone call to Army security.

2.  "Why yes, Mr. Stark.  My father was killed by his brother, who is the King of Wakanda and I am a member of that royal family with a huge grudge against the king.  And figure everything I do here in your company will be service to that grudge."  You can why "Gangs really suck" makes for the better answer there, right?

3.  In the afterlife he did.  There's no indication he did anything about the guilt he felt while he was alive, though.  And I think Erik Stephen's mother went and died in prison but I could be wrong.

4. In the real world where we all live the USA spent not quite 20 years in what country after invading it because it was harboring Osama  and al-Quaeda? 

[Chicago Redshirt]

4 hours ago, johntfs said:

1.  As noted below the Ten Rings had multiple ethnic group and in our real world we had John Walker as American Taliban.  Also, personally saving the billionaire mid-attack nets more gratitude than making a phone call to Army security.

2.  "Why yes, Mr. Stark.  My father was killed by his brother, who is the King of Wakanda and I am a member of that royal family with a huge grudge against the king.  And figure everything I do here in your company will be service to that grudge."  You can why "Gangs really suck" makes for the better answer there, right?

3.  In the afterlife he did.  There's no indication he did anything about the guilt he felt while he was alive, though.  And I think Erik Stephen's mother went and died in prison but I could be wrong.

4. In the real world where we all live the USA spent not quite 20 years in what country after invading it because it was harboring Osama  and al-Quaeda? 

I haven't seen Shang-Chi yet how the rest of the Ten Rings are portrayed. But there is a different between having a member who is White and being fully multi-ethnic. There'd also likely be a difference in acceptance between a White person and a Black person.

You run the risk of not being able to save Tony personally if you wait until the ambush happens, is the problem. Tony could have been killed either by the shotgun barrage that blew holes in his Humvee or if the shell had simply exploded. It seems like Killmonger would have been better served to not risk the possibility that the assassination succeeds for the possible benefit of slightly more gratitude.

Obviously, nothing forces Killmonger to tell the full truth about what happened to his dad. But he could have said something non-descript rather than a lie. When asked if he was close to his dad, Killmonger could easily have just left it at "Nah." 

I'm talking about What If? T'Chaka. When Killmonger is talking about knowing what it's like to have someone taken from him, the cut to T'Chaka could be read as a lot of things. Guilt is one, or trying to sus out if Killmonger knows the truth, or buying what Killmonger's selling.

There is a number of differences between Afghanistan and this situation.

The U.S. invaded Afghanistan in the post-9/11 mindset for a specific reason: because the government there was harboring the people behind a massive terrorist attack on American soil and at least initially wouldn't give them up. Starting that war in retribution for thousands killed is a far easier sell than doing so over two American deaths, even if one of them is Tony Stark. If the world at large knew that Wakanda had the repository of vibranium it does, I could get that the war could have been intended to get that precious resource. But at least in the MCU, it was a secret. Now T'Chaka is heard talking about how they were not going to allow imperalists to plunder their resources or something like that. So maybe T'Chaka had already let the cat out of the bag in terms of how much vibranium Wakanda has. 

[starri]

Can we just talk about what a badass Ramonda is?  Was she one of the Dora or War Dogs before she became queen, or are all Wakandan women trained like that?

Regardless, DAMN.

[Guest]

On 9/17/2021 at 9:33 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

1. Killmonger claims that he found out about the assassination attempt on Stark when he was undercover with the Ten Rings. First of all, it seems strange that a Black American soldier could convincingly go undercover with what I understand to be a Middle Eastern/Asian terrorist organization.

Middle Eastern terrorist groups have specifically targeted African Americans for recruitment. Most operate extensively throughout Africa. Remember the underwear bomber. I have no problem with the idea that Kilmonger could infiltrate them since he would just have to be honest about his feeling toward the US. 

[Spartan Girl]

6 hours ago, starri said:

Can we just talk about what a badass Ramonda is?  Was she one of the Dora or War Dogs before she became queen, or are all Wakandan women trained like that?

Regardless, DAMN.

Yup. It’s just the whole being duped into working with her son’s murderer that kind of ruins it.

It just occurred to me that Killmonger and Loki have a lot in common. Both use their grievances to justify being assholes. The difference between them — other than the obvious difference between them** — is that Loki’s grievances are more perceived, and he does have fleeting moments of growth. Killmonger does not.

*I have to the writers kudos, that was a pretty good line.

Edited September 18, 2021 by Spartan Girl

[johntfs]

20 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I haven't seen Shang-Chi yet how the rest of the Ten Rings are portrayed. But there is a different between having a member who is White and being fully multi-ethnic. There'd also likely be a difference in acceptance between a White person and a Black person.

You run the risk of not being able to save Tony personally if you wait until the ambush happens, is the problem. Tony could have been killed either by the shotgun barrage that blew holes in his Humvee or if the shell had simply exploded. It seems like Killmonger would have been better served to not risk the possibility that the assassination succeeds for the possible benefit of slightly more gratitude.

Obviously, nothing forces Killmonger to tell the full truth about what happened to his dad. But he could have said something non-descript rather than a lie. When asked if he was close to his dad, Killmonger could easily have just left it at "Nah." 

I'm talking about What If? T'Chaka. When Killmonger is talking about knowing what it's like to have someone taken from him, the cut to T'Chaka could be read as a lot of things. Guilt is one, or trying to sus out if Killmonger knows the truth, or buying what Killmonger's selling.

There is a number of differences between Afghanistan and this situation.

The U.S. invaded Afghanistan in the post-9/11 mindset for a specific reason: because the government there was harboring the people behind a massive terrorist attack on American soil and at least initially wouldn't give them up. Starting that war in retribution for thousands killed is a far easier sell than doing so over two American deaths, even if one of them is Tony Stark. If the world at large knew that Wakanda had the repository of vibranium it does, I could get that the war could have been intended to get that precious resource. But at least in the MCU, it was a secret. Now T'Chaka is heard talking about how they were not going to allow imperalists to plunder their resources or something like that. So maybe T'Chaka had already let the cat out of the bag in terms of how much vibranium Wakanda has. 

Black Muslims are very much a thing.  Killmonger is very smart and very skilled.  We can assume he was able to infiltrate the 10 Rings because of that.

If he doesn't save Tony, he can still use the evidence against Stane to give Tony's friends/family justice for Tony's death and maybe get in an with them that way.  Saving Tony was basically an opportunity for Killmonger.  If it didn't pan out maybe there'd be different opportunities later. 

Tony Stark is probably one of the most famous people in the world.  His biography is likely also well known - like the fact that he tragically lost his parents in a car accident.  "I also lost my dad in a senseless tragedy" is a way for Killmonger to get closer to Tony.

In the Black Panther movie we're told things about Killmonger.

One thing this version of "What If?" did was show how he was a smart, manipulative bastard instead of just telling us about it.

As for T'Chaka, maybe it was guilt or just a non-reaction reaction.

Sure Wakanda isn't Afghanistan, but Killmonger is still a smart, manipulative bastard who is very much wired into and familiar with the various power player within the US military-industrial-intelligence complex and figure he knows with buttons to push with them to get the results he wants.

[arc]

On 9/17/2021 at 9:33 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

4. In the MCU, Wakanda is thought to be a simple generic African country as opposed to a technological wonderland. So it seems like engineering a war shouldn't work.

in real life, the US seems much more willing to go to war with overwhelming odds rather than vs a contest of equals. Which makes sense, because it’s war. Wakanda’s public facing stature as a poor and backwards country would accelerate American bloodlust, not inhibit it.

and as for needing a good reason to go to war, well, Killmonger is lucky the drones were sent to Wakanda first and not Iraq.

[Sandman]

On 9/15/2021 at 3:33 AM, Dandesun said:

But Shuri and Pepper teaming up? Now I’m interested.

The episode ended just as the story was getting to the good part.

[Morrigan2575]

I love Shuri and Pepper teaming up at the end.

 

[Starfish35]

On 9/20/2021 at 7:46 PM, Sandman said:

The episode ended just as the story was getting to the good part.

Yeah that’s pretty much what I thought.  

I also liked Queen Ramonda being the badass general - that was a side of her we didn’t get to see in the movie.