Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness (2022)

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, Zonk said:

There is no indication of what you are saying in the show. Instead it was spelled out multiple times that the TVA prunes all deviations and that there is only one timeline. You are just making stuff up by saying it was a multiverse.

They pruned deviations from the script.

Hence why there were a bunch of different Lokis and they got pruned when they did things that took them off the path of 616-Loki, whether that be Sylvie being too heroic or Kid Loki being too successful as a villain by killing Thor. The issue was not that their universes existed,  else they would have been destroyed long before. It was about their choices, which is a key theme of the whole show.

[calliope1975]

I enjoyed it. I had 2 hours of bonkers fun so I left happy. Yes, the script is weak, but I thought the performances covered some of it. Lizzie was MVP. Loved America, and I want Young Avengers now!! I've been patient. Give it to me. I know they're young, but I really like Billy and Tommy's actors and I hope they keep them. Plus, as seen with Stranger Things and, you know, actual children, they grow up fast. 

There was definitely a mini freak out in my theater when the Illuminati showed up. I felt that Black Bolt was my reward for being a completist Marvel stan. The cast was never the problem with that show and there were soooo many problems. Except for Lockjaw. He was perfect.  (And I'm still holding out hope for Gemma Arterton as Medusa.) 

I also like that it was mildly scary and one of the jump scares even got me. I'm going to need a frame by frame breakdown of all the multiverses they went through. 

I also think Wanda will be back. To me, she's a sympathetic villain though I understand why others find her irredeemable. I took Professor X's statement about having a misstep doesn't mean you can't make it right or whatever it was to be about Wanda as much as Strange. And yes, her misstep was murdery and really, really bad but we have Loki so come on!

And how much do I love that PS came back after saying he was done after Logan. When that '97 theme came on, whew! My high school years hanging with my bf on Saturday mornings came rushing back. 

[tv echo]

Patrick Stewart on Playing Charles Xavier Again in ‘Doctor Strange 2’: ‘I Was a Little Unsure at First’
By Adam B. Vary   May 6, 2022
https://variety.com/2022/film/news/patrick-stewart-doctor-strange-2-charles-xavier-x-men-1235260075/ 

Quote

I saw you at the premiere of “Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness” in Los Angeles on Monday. It’s so fascinating that you’re revisiting two major roles from your past — Jean-Luc Picard and Charles Xavier — in the same week, at least as audiences are experiencing them. What was it like for you to revisit Professor X?
Well, it was a day-and-a-half’s work. I was in a very different environment from the one that I had ever been in, in any of the “X-Men” movies. And just like “Picard,” I was grateful for it, because I could think refreshingly about who he was and how he related to others. Just like “Star Trek: Picard,” I was a little unsure at first if it was a wise thing to do. Given that “Logan” had been such a powerful movie and we watched him die in Hugh Jackman’s arms. So having seen [“Doctor Strange 2”] on Monday night, I’m very happy and very proud that I’ve been part of that.
*  *  *
You’ve been clear that when “Star Trek: Picard” ends with Season 3, you are also finished with that role. But is there a chance you’d play Xavier again?
Charles Xavier? Yeah. There may be. You know, the whole X-Men comic series is so huge, so vast, there might be an opportunity in which he comes back. We’ll see.

Doctor Strange 2 Easter eggs: The biggest Marvel references
By Bradley Russell    May 6, 2022
https://www.gamesradar.com/doctor-strange-2-easter-eggs-marvel-references/ 

Quote

What’s in a number? The MCU finally gets christened as Earth-616 in Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness. That’s a reference to the same number used to identity Marvel comics’ main ‘canon’ universe. In Doctor Strange 2, Christine Palmer reveals the information, saying that the MCU’s Stephen Strange comes from 616.

The Marvel Movie Music Secretly Hidden In Doctor Strange 2
BY COOPER HOOD   MAY 5, 2022
https://screenrant.com/doctor-strange-2-soundtrack-marvel-movie-music-scores/ 

Quote

There are three main pieces of Marvel music reused in Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness. At various points in the movie, the theme song from WandaVision and sections of the X-Men: The Animated Series theme and Alan Silvestri's Captain America: The First Avenger theme can be heard. The now very identifiable WandaVision theme song written by Robert Lopez and Kristen Anderson-Lopez is first heard as Doctor Strange 2 transitions its story to Scarlet Witch as she dreams of her boys. The other two pieces of Marvel music come during the sequence where Doctor Strange meets The Illuminati, as notes from the iconic X-Men animated series are heard when Professor X (Patrick Stewart) comes onto the screen, and the same is true of Silvestri's Captain America theme when Captain Carter (Hayley Atwell) is shown.

Marvel Studios’ Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness | Wild Ride
Marvel Entertainment    May 6, 2022

Doctor Strange: Elizabeth Olsen on What’s NEXT for Wanda in the MCU
extratv   May 6, 2022

-- When asked where she would like to see Wanda go from here, Elizabeth Olsen: "There's a couple different versions of what could happen at the end of this film, and mostly I want to hear what the fans who know her best, um, what they would like to see from her next."

Edited May 6, 2022 by tv echo

[thuganomics85]

As soon as I left the theater, I thought "This is probably going to be one of the more diverse entries out of the MCU", and so far it seems like its the case, although judging from the reviews and audience scores so far, it seems like it's overall leaning towards positive at least.  For me, there were plenty of parts I enjoyed and liked, but I do think this might end up closer to the bottom half (although not anywhere close to the actual worst.)

Definitely got a lot of mixed emotions about how they handled Wanda especially.  I get that some of her actions might have been due to the darkhold, but I was surprised how much she just came off like a flat-out villain here.  I know WandaVision was hinting at a potential dark path for her, but after it ended with her at least acknowledging she was in the wrong and feeling guilty about it (even if everyone else treated her with kid gloves), it just felt off seeing her basically be like "Screw it!  Time to kill a teen!"  I'm just not sure if I'm fully onboard with it.

That said, none of these complaints take away from the fact that Elizabeth Olsen completely crushed it and was by far the standout of the film.  It's been thrilling seeing her star rise and the character elevated since Age of Ultron and that alone makes me looking forward to seeing where she goes from here (because, yeah, no way Wanda or the Scarlett Witch are gone for good since we didn't see the body.)

Benedict Cumberbatch was good as always as the Doctor, but you could really tell he was having way more fun as Darkhold Strange.  He strikes me as an actor who really likes it when he gets to be evil.  His physicality as Zombie Strange was great too, which is not surprising because he always commits (see: the behind the scenes motion cap stuff he did for Smaug in the Hobbit films.)

At least Rachel McAdams had more to do this go around, although Christine is still squandered as far as love interests go.  But any McAdams is good in my book, so I won't dwell on it too much!

Wong continues to be the most relatable character in the MCU.

The Illuminati cameos were fun.  I'm sure Hayley Atwell enjoyed getting to play a live action "Captain Carter" this go around and Lashana Lynch getting her Captain Marvel on.  Looks like they listened to fan casting for once and did get John Krasinski to play Reed Richards, although I'm wondering if he'll stick around for any of variations of the character.  And, of course, that totally was Patrick Stewart as Charles Xavier one more time!  Complete with the classic X-Men music.  Always great to see him.  That said, I think my favorite might have been them actually getting Anson Mount back to play Black Bolt.  Really thought anything involving the Inhumans show was going to be dropped into the middle of an ocean to be forgotten about!  Of course, it could have been simply included him here to just watch him get taken out with a quickness, but I still have to imagine Anson got a kick out of reprising that character in a major film like this (goes without saying that he and the rest of the cast really weren't the problem with that show.)

Baron Mordo was kind of wasted this go around.  Wonder if they actually have any long term plans with that character because Chiwetel Ejiofor's skills shouldn't be used this sparingly.  Also, how did Michael Stuhlbarg manage to pull off a prominent spot in the credits and only have one scene?  I wonder if some of West's stuff was cut or something.

Xochiti Gomez was perfect as America Chavez and I can't wait to see more of the character.  And, of course, why am I not surprised that she is dealing with a bunch of trolls and hate on the internet for daring to play a character who has... two mothers.  Sigh....

Like with most Marvel press and PR, the hype over the horror elements were kind of exaggerated, but I was still surprised over some of the stuff they got away with.  Same with the violence.  Obviously still in the PG-13 range, but they let Sam Raimi take it right to the edge, I think.

While the film was still in the "Marvel wheelhouse", it did have that distinctive Sam Raimi feel to it, which I kind of find interesting because I feel like two of Marvel's most controversial films recently are ones where it feels like the director's vision is more prominent than norm (this and Eternals/Chloe Zhao.)  I know there has been a lot of talk and debate over the studio cracking down on its directors, but it seems like when they do let them have more free rein, the reactions are more mixed from fans.  Curious to see how the rest of the films play out going forward: especially Thor: Love & Thunder and if Taika was given more creative control with it (then again, I thought Ragnarok was clearly a "Taika Waititi" film still.) 

Should have known Raimi would find some way to get Bruce Campbell into the MCU!  Didn't spot his brother Ted though.

The mid credit scene was decent enough.  I'm honestly surprised that it took them this long to get Charlize Theron into the MCU.  She may be a big time Oscar winner, but she's usually down for some popcorn fare (the Fast & the Furious films.)

Probably will need to watch it again to really solidify my opinion, but overall I thought it was fine, but just wish they handled some aspects better.

[Zonk]

5 hours ago, SeanC said:

Hence why there were a bunch of different Lokis and they got pruned when they did things that took them off the path of 616-Loki, whether that be Sylvie being too heroic or Kid Loki being too successful as a villain by killing Thor. The issue was not that their universes existed,  else they would have been destroyed long before. It was about their choices, which is a key theme of the whole show.

Deviations from the predestined path created those universes. Until those decisions those universes didn't exist. That's one of the basic multiversal theories, that decision create new universes.

Edit: Maybe Tara Strong can explain it to you:

They are using "timeline" and "multiverse" interchangeably in the clip. But pay attention to the "Danger: Multiverse" screen at 1:15.

Edited May 6, 2022 by Zonk

[Jazzy24]

Wanda has my heart, always have and always will. 
 

Wanda has always been my favorite Marvel character, probably comic book character. So this movie kinda broke my heart. 
 

I really liked it. Wanda’s story was heart wrenching. It was about trauma and loss for Strange, America, and Wanda. I loved Wong in this and I’m glad Marvel is letting him stay the Sorcerer Supreme. The magic was creative and the effects were really good. Strange and America were great together. 
 

The Illuminati was good I liked John K as Mr. Fantastic. It was a comic book fan’s dream to see the Illuminati representing the Avengers, Fantastic Four, Inhumans, the Cosmic side and the X-Men. It was so good.
 

This movie was a straight up horror movie. Sam did so good with the jump scares and vibe. I hope he does more with Marvel in the future.
 

I refuse to believe Wanda is dead.   

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, Zonk said:

Deviations from the predestined path created those universes. Until those decisions those universes didn't exist.

There's a whole universe where Loki is an alligator. Sylvie's universe was already radically different before the TVA decided to prune her based on her decision to become heroic. And so on.

[Raja]

On 4/30/2022 at 12:09 PM, Dani said:

Maybe Zombie Strange. All you really need to know about that one is that almost everyone turned into zombies. 

I doubt that any of them will be required viewing for MoM. It might add more details but everything that matters should be explained in the movie just like it was in No Way Home. After all the characters don’t know what happened in What If? and it will need it to be explained to them. 

What If adds basically nothing if we go in with the previous knowledge of the last Spider-Man and Loki. Specific variants are not necessarily what we see, just the ideal of near and further from what we have seen before variants. 

On 5/1/2022 at 8:00 AM, Shannon L. said:

My son is pretty sure he saw Ultron's Army, too 

I don't think they'd be dumb enough to attach any of the MCU movies to a Disney+ show so heavily that people would be lost if they didn't see the series, I was just wondering if there would enough of a connection that it would be an advantage to at least being familiar with What If? I'm sure it'll be fine without any knowledge of it at all. 

I am pretty sure a bot was calling itself Ultron when the Scarlett Witch sent its head through the door ahead of her as she destroyed most of them off screen.

On the other hand without WandaVision the  out of nowhere heel turn from Wanda into Scarlet Witch would be a WWE plotline. Secondarily the Disney keeps every penny in the future world of the streaming service is an incredible lure. I expect as we go forward they would add even more to sell more subscriptions.

The Iluminati have got to be the stupidest board of directors in the multiverse. Their magic user in a magic fight is more worried about his sorcerer status. Reed Richards, smartest man in most multiverse world's comes up and tells a being of unknown power the way to defeat the second most powerful fighter, Captain Marvel waits instead of bringing her big guns into the fight before its too late, as does Professor X. With Professor X spoiled in the last TV add blitz Anson Mount coming in as a Black Bolt variant was the surprise of the show. So much for the Inhumans being disappeared forever.

The sorcerer's magic being no match for the  witch's Darkhold fueled magic was an inspired choice.  

Edited May 7, 2022 by Raja

[arc]

On 5/3/2022 at 7:06 PM, Zonk said:

Only in the prime universe were they constructs. Which is weird, since I'm pretty sure the whole Wandavision show happened before the universe split into a multiverse, because he who remains and the TVA purged all other universes. For that matter, America shouldn't have been able to send her parents into other universes, because there were no other universes. Oh well, wibbely wobbely timey wimey, I guess.

(Loki stuff) “Before” is a very loose concept when we’re talking about time travel. Sylvie killed He Who Remains at the literal (?) end of the universe, and the action almost instantaneously (again, a weird concept in this discussion) reverberated throughout the timeline. The TVA already functionally existed outside of time. When HWR was killed, the TVA was undone, albeit replaced in some form… but the new proprietor apparently had no interest in pruning timelines into one sacred timeline. So therefore once HWR was killed, there have always been multiverses.

Imagine if it wasn’t a universe, just one tree. If I’d been pruning it all its life, and then in 2022 I was not merely killed but retroactively wiped out of existence throughout history, all my previous pruning would be undone too, so there wouldn’t only be new branches from the pruned tree.

On 5/3/2022 at 7:14 PM, Zonk said:

I also don't think her motivation made much sense. As America could have just sent her to a universe with her kids and (almost) everybody would have been happy. 

They explicitly raised this issue in the movie. Wanda explained that if she just switched to universe 838 and then years later her kids got incurably ill, then they’d die. But they wouldn’t be incurable to someone who could traverse the multiverse. So she wanted a permanent solution to ever losing her children for any reason.

On 5/5/2022 at 2:37 AM, Zonk said:

Part of the Illuminate was also Anson Mount as Black Bolt and he did play that character in the Prime universe (the show was just so attrocious that everybody has tried to forget it).

Was that why his costume was so bad? It reminds me of how minor changes to Steve Rogers’s helmet can make it go from fine to the goofy blob it was in Avengers 1.

20 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

Odd that there seemed to be no alternate universes where Vision lived.

This bothered me. I guess it was already a long movie they presumably wanted to streamline, and also Wandavision already dealt with her loss of Vision, but it felt overly reductive to make her motivation here as solely about her lost sons and not also her dead husband.

[Raja]

12 minutes ago, arc said:

Part of the Illuminate was also Anson Mount as Black Bolt and he did play that character in the Prime universe (the show was just so attrocious that everybody has tried to forget it).

I think everybody assumed that all Inhumans, being Perlmutter's baby, would be disappeared and not be among the properties, the two Spider-Man series and possibly the main X-Men having a Professor  close to his movie variant added to the multiverse characters shown in the MCU.

12 minutes ago, arc said:

Was that why his costume was so bad? It reminds me of how minor changes to Steve Rogers’s helmet can make it go from fine to the goofy blob it was in Avengers 1.

I am guessing they just didn't spend time and money to make it good. The Inhuman miniseries was notorious for being made on the cheap. Down to wounding many of  the characters in the first episode, which was made for IMAX, so they had an excuse not to use their superpowers for the remainder. The horror movie kill was so prominent and expensive looking as compared to the Scarlett Witch disarming Black Bolt first by taking his mouth, which looked worse than the Superman losing his mustache, makes me think  that they had a kill scene and someone later decided go ahead add the Inhuman's star

[kiddo82]

This movie was a lot.  Not bad...but a lot.

Main takeaway:  Rachel McAdams hasn't aged A DAY since her breakout year in 2004.  

[Raja]

16 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

This really felt like one giant middle finger to everyone that got emotionally invested in WandaVision. I didn’t think anything could piss me off more than The Falcon and the Winter Soldier, but congratulations MCU, you’ve outdone yourself again.

Wanda had her villain arc, but when she saw the damage she was (unintentionally) doing to the Westview residents, she was horrified: “That’s not me.” She did the right thing and undid the spell, even though it broke her heart for the millionth time, and vowed to learn to harness her problems so something like that would never happen again. We’re supposed to believe she just kinda forgot about all that and went straight to murder? Even if the dark book was corrupting her, it felt like cheap and lazy writing.

Bringing back Patrick Stewart just for that?! Unforgivable. Though I won’t lie I wasn’t sad to see Captain Carter go.

Which begs the question: did Feige watch GOT and go “I bet I can ruin way more female characters, and people will still love the MCU”? Because that’s what it’s starting to feel like.

So thanks, I hate it.

Maybe because I knew the greater Darkhold story from the Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D corner of the multiverse but by showing Wanda studying it WandaVision ended showing us her heel turn, beyond her mental illness arc 

[scarynikki12]

I know the original plan was for MoM to immediately follow WandaVision but I think the delay between the two worked for Wanda being the villain. At the end of WandaVision we saw her astral form studying the Darkhold so we knew she was already being corrupted. MoM didn't explicitly say when it took place so we can assume that more time passed after WV. This gives the Darkhold additional time to corrupt Wanda and allows for her to no longer feel the remorse that was present at the end of the show.

I've never read any Scarlet Witch comics but I remember reading descriptions and didn't comic Wanda go mad as well? This would just be an adaptation of one of her comic stories and MoM can be interpreted as her Trip to the Underworld before rising again as a hero. And I have no doubt we'll see her rise again before Lizzie's time in the MCU concludes. 

Rami does horror elements well. When Wanda was in full horror monster mode she was absolutely terrifying and I loved every minute. Her snapping Charles' neck was horror perfection. 

Not every Loki was a Tom Hiddleston character so there's some wiggle room if they want to just have Krasinski be Reed for this movie and bring on someone else for the official Fantastic 4 entrance into the MCU. His scenes were great though so if they keep him as Reed it would work well. I love how everyone was certain we'd see a Tom Cruise cameo and then nothing. Instead we got Charles, Reed, Maria, Peggy, and Black Bolt. Keep Tom far far away from the MCU but feel free to keep using him as a media decoy.

One detail that I appreciated was that they made a point of saying mentioning incursions and how they're two or more universes collapsing into each other. This will probably bring us the Fantastic 4 and X-Men without having to sacrifice well known character backstory like the 60s setting for FF/Erik surviving the Holocaust. 

I adored America. I've loved Xochitl since she perfectly played Dawn on Babysitters Club and she was great again. After everything that happened in the movie she was both frustrated and thrilled when she produced sparks in her wizard training. Let her stick around for a long time.

Honestly the only part of the movie I didn't enjoy was the couple next to me who talked literally the entire movie. And I mean literally in the way it actually means. When they were shushed they just started mocking the people shushing them. I'm all for people being vocal in movies, as the Reed reveal and Charles entrance elicited plenty, but there's a difference between doing some vocal reacting to what's onscreen and repeating dialogue back to the screen, giving MCU backstory, or just saying that you did/didn't like what just happened. SHUT UP or arrange to see the late showing on Sunday night when no one will be there. I think they were both drunk which made it worse.

Anyway, two thumbs up from me.

[Spartan Girl]

5 hours ago, Raja said:

Maybe because I knew the greater Darkhold story from the Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D corner of the multiverse but by showing Wanda studying it WandaVision ended showing us her heel turn, beyond her mental illness arc 

 

4 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

I've never read any Scarlet Witch comics but I remember reading descriptions and didn't comic Wanda go mad as well? This would just be an adaptation of one of her comic stories and MoM can be interpreted as her Trip to the Underworld before rising again as a hero. And I have no doubt we'll see her rise again before Lizzie's time in the MCU concludes. 

I’ll admit I didn’t read the comics, so maybe her heel turn was canon. But it really felt like a rehash of the GOT finale and will probably be every but as divisive depending on how you felt about the WandaVision events. In any case I’m still smarting over how the MCU has treated some other female characters so this felt like another poke in the eye with a sharp stick.

And the rushed execution of it all, coupled with the points Wanda brings up about how other characters were hypocritically rewarded for messing with the universe, just feels that the MCU would rather sweep the Avengers’ mistakes under the rug without consequences: “Well, Wanda’s evil now, who cares what she thinks?”

[kiddo82]

Dan sums it better than I ever could.  I agree with all of his points.  About discourse in general, about how you can't conceivably bring Wanda back from this, about the hold for applause moments and why they didn't work, and the potential for diminishing returns of introducing a multi-verse into a film universe.  Where are the stakes when there is conceivably no finality?

End Game worked so well because even though it was fan service out of its butt, it felt really earned.  It was the culmination of years of getting to know these characters and going on this ride along with them.  The fan service in this one felt more like pandering.  lt's like now the MCU wants that payoff instantly without the leg work.  Also, you run into a little bit of what I call "24 syndrome" where when everything has a big reveal, nothing has a big reveal.

Edited May 7, 2022 by kiddo82

[SeanC]

4 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

coupled with the points Wanda brings up about how other characters were hypocritically rewarded for messing with the universe

That was pretty nonsensical. Wanda is trying to kill innocent people to make herself feel better. That's nothing like any of the supposed comparables she brings up.

[Raja]

18 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

 

I've never read any Scarlet Witch comics but I remember reading descriptions and didn't comic Wanda go mad as well? This would just be an adaptation of one of her comic stories and MoM can be interpreted as her Trip to the Underworld before rising again as a hero. And I have no doubt we'll see her rise again before Lizzie's time in the MCU concludes. 

 

In the comics The Scarlet Witch once destroyed all of the Mutants. Many have speculated to get Mutants and thus the X-Men into the MCU that story would be flipped and the Scarlet Witch will create the Mutants

Edited May 7, 2022 by Raja

[dwmarch]

I saw this yesterday and enjoyed it although I didn't love how far into horror it leaned. But for MCU horror, it was way better than Helstrom.

Speaking of forgotten corners of productions that have Marvel logos on them, color me surprised that out of all the random side characters we could have included we got Black Bolt from Inhumans. He didn't get any cheers in the theatre but I would not be surprised if most people have indeed forgotten that show. And the poor guy gets taken out like a punk because someone else had to brag about the source of his power which allowed Wanda to immediately turn it against him. Oops!

Professor X got a polite smattering of applause when he appeared and Reed Richards got a bit of a reaction but no cheers. I was in a full theatre.

I thought there would be some Loki connections here since that show got into some specifics about how multiverse stuff worked but I don't recall anything obvious.

Dr. Strange talks shit about Hawkeye but he forgets (wasn't around at the time but he should know) that Clint Barton was the one who stopped Wanda when none of the other Avengers could and he is also the one who recruited her to the team! He also lost his family in the blip and went mad with grief so he knows what she is going through. That might not mean much when dealing with the Scarlet Witch but as is Dr. Strange's surprisingly common failing, he didn't even ask.

 

[Enigma X]

I am just finishing the movie and am waiting for the last post-credit scene. It falls upper middle-tier for me. My UO is that I am not enamored with Rami. So for a Rami film, that is high for me.

Dumb question, but couldn’t Wanda have manifested another Billy and Tommy. I get it is not exactly the same but since the originals were manifested, it kind of is.

[Brn2bwild]

5 minutes ago, Enigma X said:

Dumb question, but couldn’t Wanda have manifested another Billy and Tommy. I get it is not exactly the same but since the originals were manifested, it kind of is.

You would think so.  But what bothers me is that having live versions of Billy and Tommy out there, as well as an actual maternal Wanda, dumbs down Wanda's powers from WandaVision.  Instead of her conjuring them being a sign of her incredible ability to create from nothing, she is just copying patterns from other universes.  Similarly, with the scene where 838 Wanda tucks her kids into bed: having her say the same things that a grieving, philosophical Wanda said in her last moments with them just cheapens our Wanda's experience in WandaVision.   

Also, I've said this before, but the costume change bugs.  Why the long sleeves?  I thought the Scarlet Witch costume in WandaVision was perfect.

[Raja]

31 minutes ago, Enigma X said:

 

Dumb question, but couldn’t Wanda have manifested another Billy and Tommy. I get it is not exactly the same but since the originals were manifested, it kind of is.

I think that in Wanda's damaged mind creating a new pair of forced aged up boys would not be her children like the first pair, or nearly identical variations would be 

[calliope1975]

I'm not surprised at all that Wanda went full villain. She had no consequences after WV, was in isolation, dealing with grief, despair, guilt, was tormented every night with a dream of the two things she loved and missed the most, and she was delving deeply into dark magic. That's a fast pass to murderville. 

At the end of WV, I thought she was astral projecting like Strange did to learn, but now I think she was already creating her new reality. She wasn't really chillin on the front porch with tea. She was getting down and dirty with dark magic and then heard the kids she missed desperately calling for her. She went full on mom crazy mode. (And I loved every second of it.)

Also, Bee and Rat from Endgame need a spinoff. Who needs butterflies?

 

Edited May 7, 2022 by calliope1975

[moonorchid]

I felt it about 20 mins in and still felt it in the end…I thought this movie was pretty mid. 6/10.

I don’t dislike it but even going in with no expectations, it just wasn’t good. The script is weak, so many moments are just so cringe abs awkward. 
 

WandaVision was my favorite marvel tv project post endgame and made me not just love Wanda but call her my favorite. I knew she was the villain here but I felt like they really were surface level villain with her even though I felt Elizabeth Olsen sold the crap out of this. 

It could be because Dr. Strange is just not my thing. He doesn’t move me at all so following him majority of the movie was wasted on me. 

This movie feels like there was a bigger idea for it that got scraped after it was filmed and they just pieced together pieces that move the plot along but it’s just the most common tropes in movies. 
 

I wanted to love this so badly.

Edited May 7, 2022 by moonorchid

[Hiyo]

Overall I enjoyed it.

Initially I wasn't too keen on Wanda being the villain, but as others said, Olson sold it well and was entertaining as the villain. I hope we get to see more of Wanda one day, and her possible redemption. And it was certainly better than her heel turn in the crapfest that was Avengers Disassembled...

Can someone refresh my memory on how and when Wong became the Sorcerer Supreme? It will be interesting to see how the 616 Mordo would react to that if they follow up his story in the next sequel.

The Illuminati cameos pretty fun.

I was pretty meh on America Chavez. Then again, I'm not a huge fan of the comics version, and this movie didn't do much to change my mind, tbh.

Charlize as Cleo has interesting possibilities. Although her reference to an "incursion" seems like a possible hint to what the new version of Infinity War/Endgame could be about...

It was fun to see the different versions of Strange. It will be interesting to see what they do with Strange (and his third eye) from here on out.

[SeanC]

6 minutes ago, Hiyo said:

Can someone refresh my memory on how and when Wong became the Sorcerer Supreme?

When Strange was killed by Thanos in the Blip, Wong took over, and remained in charge after Strange came back to life.

[Raja]

12 minutes ago, SeanC said:

When Strange was killed by Thanos in the Blip, Wong took over, and remained in charge after Strange came back to life.

In "it's all connected" the story was told in Spider-Man No Way Home

[Dandesun]

Wanda being the villain doesn't bother me at all because she has very much been so in comics and this really leant itself to the Disassambled storyline. Granted, that storyline also had it's faults but it was centered around Wanda and her boys, her losing those boys and going full on reality warper nuts as a result. And that led to the Avengers going 'ummm... this is a problem' and various other groups being all 'she's crazy and uber powerful, you put her down, that's the only way to protect people' and all of that led to House of M which led to 'No More Mutants' where Wanda basically genocided mutants and was called the Decimation for a reason. And, to be fair, that's not even the first time Wanda was a villain in her comics run and I'm not talking about the early days of Magneto's Brotherhood.

Basically, I found it reasonable given the narrative. Yes, she released Westview but then she took off and isolated herself and this was after she gave up replacement Vision AND Tommy and Billy so she's still grieving their losses while, at the same time, accepting these super powerful reality warping abilities and reading the Darkhold. What does she hear as she's astrally studying a book of overwhelming evil? Her boys calling her. Suffice to say, Wanda is still not operating on the most healthy and accepting levels and the Darkhold is really not helping. Case in point, 'the Darkhold corrupts everything and everyone it touches' which is said out loud and then Wanda releases the illusion and she's in a nasty ass wasteland of corruption and rot. She's already gone and it doesn't matter how many people try to reach her and reason with her. Strange even asks about the Wanda in these other universes... what about them? Which is the Chekov's question because that's what ultimately breaks her out... Tommy and Billy Don't. Want. Her. They want THEIR mother, who she is hurting in front of them.

I did laugh a bit at the 'that's not me, I don't hurt people, I'm not a monster' part because I'm like 'Bitch, you've been murdering your way through this entire movie. Who are you even trying to kid?'

Wanda's a great hero. She's also a great villain. Maybe I'm just used to comics being that way. She was a great villain in this movie and Charles' line about how just because people stray from the path doesn't mean you give up on them is... quintessential Charles, really. And hey, Krakoa era comics even found a way to redeem Wanda from the Decimation so I hope that we do see Wanda again.

The multiverse stuff was fun. I really did love how they showed America's powers, even her punching the walls of the cell resulting in the star. I loved that they showed us the AmeriMom's and the pin on her jacket that all underscore parts about her. Strange... hoo boy has he ever got stuff to deal with, which is right. Mystic arts always bring the weird and this certainly did.

I full on GASPED at the mid-credits scene. Clea? YES. Charlize Theron? YES. And talk about timing. Based on What If and this movie it's clear that there are no universes where Stephen and Christine are together and happy. I'm glad he told her that he loved her but it felt final and what better time to then bring Clea in? YES YES YES.

It was weird as fuck and that's why I enjoyed it. The only thing I flat out hated was Captain Carter using Steve's line. NO NO NO. 'I can do this all day' is ALL STEVE and I do not accept pretenders using it.

I also really liked the solarpunk aesthetic of the Illuminati-verse. Did anyone else notice that particular 'verse was very big on hats? Everyone in the streets was wearing a hat. So dapper.

[Spartan Girl]

11 minutes ago, Dandesun said:

It was weird as fuck and that's why I enjoyed it. The only thing I flat out hated was Captain Carter using Steve's line. NO NO NO. 'I can do this all day' is ALL STEVE and I do not accept pretenders using it.

 

[Sakura12]

2 hours ago, Dandesun said:

It was weird as fuck and that's why I enjoyed it. The only thing I flat out hated was Captain Carter using Steve's line. NO NO NO. 'I can do this all day' is ALL STEVE and I do not accept pretenders using it

Well her all day lasted about 5 minutes, so. 

This was better than the first Dr. Strange but it falls in the middle tier. The cameos were fun with Professor X showing up in his comic book wheel chair. Was that the guy from the Inhumans show I never bothered to watch? And they did get John Krasinski to play Reed. It can't be just for this. 

I thought we'd get the Strange from What if as the final villain. I guess he's still battling the Watcher. 

I didn't think Wanda learned anything from Westview since Monica just let her go. And we saw studying the Darkhold at the very end. I don't know how long it's been and they said the book corrupts. They did keep that Wanda has to actually be shown her destruction to really understand it. 

I liked America even if I didn't really understand her powers. Also is she an Alien because her world didn't look like Earth. Or her Earth is very different then the rest of them.

Then with the multiverse any character can potentially come back as a variant. That might intise some of them come back if they can play a different and or evil version of their character. 

[Raja]

1 hour ago, Sakura12 said:

Well her all day lasted about 5 minutes, so. 

This was better than the first Dr. Strange but it falls in the middle tier. The cameos were fun with Professor X showing up in his comic book wheel chair. Was that the guy from the Inhumans show I never bothered to watch? And they did get John Krasinski to play Reed. It can't be just for this. 

I thought we'd get the Strange from What if as the final villain. I guess he's still battling the Watcher. 

I didn't think Wanda learned anything from Westview since Monica just let her go. And we saw studying the Darkhold at the very end. I don't know how long it's been and they said the book corrupts. They did keep that Wanda has to actually be shown her destruction to really understand it. 

I liked America even if I didn't really understand her powers. Also is she an Alien because her world didn't look like Earth. Or her Earth is very different then the rest of them.

Then with the multiverse any character can potentially come back as a variant. That might intise some of them come back if they can play a different and or evil version of their character. 

Yes Anson Mount played Black Bolt in the Inhumans miniseries also.

At this in point WandaVision serves as the Scarlet Witch villain's origin story. It was on here and on Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D more than on WandaVision that they explicitly said that using the Darkhold takes over the user. Even with Dr. Strange we are told that all the rest were corrupted but the 616 Doctor survived because Wanda destroyed the Darkhold after a very limited usage. So it's addictive properties couldn't do more damage to him

Edited May 7, 2022 by Raja

[scarynikki12]

44 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

I liked America even if I didn't really understand her powers. Also is she an Alien because her world didn't look like Earth. Or her Earth is very different then the rest of them.

I know nothing about the character outside of the movie but I wonder if she's from an entirely unique Earth? She said she never has the dreams and never found another America in any of the worlds she visited so maybe that's true for everyone on her Earth? Maybe not but it could be how she and her moms can stay on 616 without risking an incursion after they reunite.

[cambridgeguy]

3 hours ago, Dandesun said:

It was weird as fuck and that's why I enjoyed it. The only thing I flat out hated was Captain Carter using Steve's line. NO NO NO. 'I can do this all day' is ALL STEVE and I do not accept pretenders using it.

It was literally the last thing she ever said, so no worries about her using the line again.

[AimingforYoko]

At first, I thought Charlize was a big get, but she's done the Fast series, so she's down for the silliness.

As another poster noted, any Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. fan could've told you don't fuck with the Darkhold. Wanda made the right decision in the end, but she killed a lot of people. (Guess we know who the real "Mightiest Avenger" is). I'm curious where she goes from here.

[Morrigan2575]

On 5/6/2022 at 8:31 PM, Raja said:

The Iluminati have got to be the stupidest board of directors in the multiverse. Their magic user in a magic fight is more worried about his sorcerer status. Reed Richards, smartest man in most multiverse world's comes up and tells a being of unknown power the way to defeat the second most powerful fighter, Captain Marvel waits instead of bringing her big guns into the fight before its too late, as does Professor X. With Professor X spoiled in the last TV add blitz Anson Mount coming in as a Black Bolt variant was the surprise of the show. So much for the Inhumans being disappeared forever.

I just wanted to quote you're entire post because it's exactly my thoughts.  I liked the movie but, they totally nerfed the Illuminati. Smartest man alive does something utterly stupid. Prof X should have been able to push the Scarlett Witch out of Wanda's head.  Black Bolt freaked out, way too easily and Captain Marvel went out like a punk. Peggy is probably the only one who's death seemed valid...she also looked fabulous. 

Now onto the things I liked. I'm glad they made Wanda a villain. I've thought she was since WandaVision. I didn't hate Wanda even though she killed Prof X. I felt for her, Wanda was one of the more compelling villains.  I don't think we'll see this Wanda again. I'm guessing the next version we see will be a Mutant/Magneto's Daughter. 

I liked the horror aspects, hiring Raimi for this movie was smart. I loved the Bruce Campbell cameo, it reminded me of Evil Dead 2...which was hilarious because later with the dark spirits and Zombie Strange, I was like, yep totally Evil Dead/Deadites.

I was caught off guard at the reference that MCU was 616 Universe. 

I was surprised we didn't get a Quick Silver/Pietro cameo

I loved the friendship/buddy cop partnership between Strange and Wong...I LOVE Wong.

I really liked America Chavez, she was a great character and I liked the actress. I hope we get more of her and, I really hope she finds her parents.

I'm a little confused by the mid/post credits scenes. Was our Strange the one that got the 3rd Eye or was he the one that interacted with Charleze Theron?

Also, was there a Ted Raimi cameo in the movie? Also, I'm a little disappointed we didn't get a Toby Mcguire  cameo since it's a Raimi movie. 

 

[Raja]

12 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

 

I'm a little confused by the mid/post credits scenes. Was our Strange the one that got the 3rd Eye or was he the one that interacted with Charleze Theron?

Also, was there a Ted Raimi cameo in the movie? Also, I'm a little disappointed we didn't get a Toby Mcguire  cameo since it's a Raimi movie. 

 

I do believe that was our, 616 Strange. His limited exposure to the Darkhold caused the third eye to emerge with great pain and then a time skip to after he had it under control in the mid credits,  and who the sites are telling me is Clea made contact.

I was looking for Ted, Joxer the Mighty actually, but didn't notice him

Edited May 8, 2022 by Raja

[Enigma X]

Just now, Raja said:

I do believe that was our, 616 Strange. His limited exposure to the Darkhold caused the third eye to emerge with great pain and then a time skip to after he had it under control in the mid credits,  and who the sites are telling me is Clea made contact.

I admit that I may have missed something in the overall Marvel lore, but has it been explained why Wanda or Agatha never grew a third eye? Is it because they are witches?

[Morrigan2575]

5 minutes ago, Raja said:

do believe that was our, 616 Strange. His limited exposure to the Darkhold caused the third eye to emerge with great pain and then a time skip to after he had it under control in the mid credits,  and who the sites are telling me is Clea made contact.

Oh, I didn't realize there was a time jump. I thought it was a variant,  like in 1 universe Strange got the 3rd Eye and in another universe Clea showed up.  I knew the character but, not her name. I think she's the girlfriend he had when Magic went to him for help/training

7 minutes ago, Raja said:

I was looking for Ted, Joxer the Mighty actually, but didn't notice him

OK, I had my eye out for him, Bruce and Toby since it was a Sam Raimi film and the mentioned Spider-Man, thought it would be cool if Peter Parker was spotted (sans Spider-Man).

[Morrigan2575]

3 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

they did get John Krasinski to play Reed. It can't be just for this. 

Since they went with Stewart and Anson for Xavier and Blackbolt, I have to assume the used Krasinski for Richards because of a new movie...otherwise why not bring Ioan Gruffudd

[Raja]

5 minutes ago, Enigma X said:

I admit that I may have missed something in the overall Marvel lore, but has it been explained why Wanda or Agatha never grew a third eye? Is it because they are witches?

In the books most point to the Eye of Agamotto, or time infinity stone holder/pendant of the MCU, as the reason. None of the other on live action screen users of the Darkhold in the two TV series developed a visual third eye that I can recall.

[arc]

17 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I was caught off guard at the reference that MCU was 616 Universe. 

And many comics nerds are annoyed because in comics continuity, the mainline universe is 616 and the MCU is Earth-199999. This is probably the first time a universe in the Marvel multiverse has tried to hijack the 616 designation. I get why they did it, but still. 😕

[Raja]

9 minutes ago, arc said:

And many comics nerds are annoyed because in comics continuity, the mainline universe is 616 and the MCU is Earth-199999. This is probably the first time a universe in the Marvel multiverse has tried to hijack the 616 designation. I get why they did it, but still. 😕

Mysterio did call it the 616 in Spider-Man but since he was a fake it was amazing he choose that number. Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. blew up Shield flight 616, their "bus" going into The Avengers Age of Ultron

[Morrigan2575]

23 minutes ago, arc said:

And many comics nerds are annoyed because in comics continuity, the mainline universe is 616 and the MCU is Earth-199999. This is probably the first time a universe in the Marvel multiverse has tried to hijack the 616 designation. I get why they did it, but still. 😕

Which is why I was caught off guard. 🙁

[One4Sorrow2TooBad]

2 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Oh, I didn't realize there was a time jump. I thought it was a variant,  like in 1 universe Strange got the 3rd Eye and in another universe Clea showed up.  I knew the character but, not her name. I think she's the girlfriend he had when Magic went to him for help/training

OK, I had my eye out for him, Bruce and Toby since it was a Sam Raimi film and the mentioned Spider-Man, thought it would be cool if Peter Parker was spotted (sans Spider-Man).

Please tell me Bruce had at least__ a small role somewhere in this abomination???

[arc]

1 hour ago, One4Sorrow2TooBad said:

Please tell me Bruce had at least__ a small role somewhere in this abomination???

He was the pizza ball vendor on Earth 838. And he got the end credits scene!

[Chyromaniac]

4 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Since they went with Stewart and Anson for Xavier and Blackbolt, I have to assume the used Krasinski for Richards because of a new movie...otherwise why not bring Ioan Gruffudd

Only Enterprise Captains get to reprise their roles from previous continuities. 🖖

Seriously though, that is an interesting point- I think he could probably still pull off the role.  Although, acknowledging his Reed Richards implies a Chris Evans Johnny Storm - and that may be too weird a coincidence for even this movie.  As for Krasinski, whether this means he’ll be in the F4 going forward is anyone’s guess- it could be Disney is using this to gage reaction.  If it works, then hey - it was the plan all along.  If not, then it was just a fun nod to fan casting, where he’s been the consensus choice for some reason.  I almost think it’s more that people want Emily Blunt in the MCU, and he’s getting brought in by default.

[Hiyo]

Quote

 I knew the character but, not her name. I think she's the girlfriend he had when Magic went to him for help/training

She has been an on-again/off-again significant other for Strange in the comics. Also

Spoiler

she is Dormammu's nice as well, so we'll see if the writers use that going forward in future movies.

 

[arc]

27 minutes ago, Chyromaniac said:

Although, acknowledging his Reed Richards implies a Chris Evans Johnny Storm - and that may be too weird a coincidence for even this movie.

Very tangential similar stuff, but it’s spoilers for some years-old moments from the CW Arrowverse shows:

Spoiler

The Arrowverse cast Brandon Routh as the Atom in Legends of Tomorrow, and then for the Crisis on Infinite Earths crossover event Routh also played a multiversal variant of Superman, which was obviously also a meta reference to his having played Superman for Superman Returns. They even had the two characters meet onscreen. I think they’ve also done some meta stuff about John Wesley Shipp playing Barry Allen’s dad in the new Flash show when he also played Barry Allen in the 90s Flash show. Shipp even brought back that Flash at one point.

The Arrowverse is not afraid to get nuts.

I think it was a shame that 616* Mordo didn’t even show up. It really shows how the studio is willing to pivot even if the previous movie hinted broadly that he would be the villain for the next movie.

* MCU 616, anyways

[arc]

THR has a review I really like, but to me it also highlights one way the film fell short: the parallels between Wanda’s loss* and Strange’s loss are a little too thinly drawn. His dissatisfaction with having lost Christine isn’t a match for the despair that Wanda has over losing her sons. It never feels as potent, so there’s no weight to him spurning her offer of a universe where Stephen and Christine are together.

* also, whoa, I actually forgot that the third major loss of Wanda’s life was her brother. Which, again, the Wandavision show already touched on, but it still feels very heartless of this movie to compress her goal to strictly finding replacements for her sons, and not her brother and husband. 

[Morrigan2575]

3 hours ago, Chyromaniac said:

Only Enterprise Captains get to reprise their roles from previous continuities

I didn't realize Pike and Blackbolt were the same actor. Until I checked IMDb to see if this was the same Blackbolt from the show.  LOL

[Morrigan2575]

2 hours ago, arc said:

the parallels between Wanda’s loss* and Strange’s loss are a little too thinly drawn. His dissatisfaction with having lost Christine isn’t a match for the despair that Wanda has over losing her sons.

I don't know,  I think it was fair. Strange lost a life with the woman he loves, a woman who had been a part of his life for years. Wanda lost her children of 3 weeks but, they were her family, all she had left at that point.