S03.E18: Cheating, Revelations and a Box of Doll Heads

[Pallas]

Mark is stressed and exhausted from studying for an important entrance exam, so Darlene steps in to help.

[chitowngirl]

8 hours ago, Pallas said:

Mark is stressed and exhausted from studying for an important entrance exam, so Darlene steps in to help.

This should be episode 18

[tessaray]

1 hour ago, chitowngirl said:

This should be episode 18

Fixed.

[peacheslatour]

Doll heads? "Ooh, Cher."

[Bastet]

33 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

Doll heads? "Ooh, Cher."

That's exactly where my mind went, too.  I wonder who has a box of doll heads this time - hopefully it's not still D.J.!  "The little runt's a psycho."

Edited April 20, 2021 by Bastet

[peacheslatour]

3 minutes ago, Bastet said:

That's exactly where my mind went, too.  I wonder who has a box of doll head this time - hopefully it's not still D.J.!  "The little runt's a psycho."

I kind of think he was...

[Annber03]

"I wish he'd hit the books, it might help him relax."

"You took that to a really weird place...".

LOL. 

Wow. That scene between Becky and Dan. That was intense. They needed that, though, I'm glad they were able to get some stuff off their chests. My heart breaks for Becky, with all of her regrets over the path her life has taken. And she's also realizing that a lot of the things her parents warned her about when she started getting so wrapped up in Mark as a teenager were right, and that's a tough pill to swallow, too. 

But I really hope Dan's right and that moment between them did prove beneficial for her and her efforts to work through her issues. Robin coming to see her at the end was nice, too :). 

And speaking of people named Mark, glad that the younger Mark was able to get things sorted out with his school. My mom thought that the show was going to go in the direction that the parents who could afford tutors were doing some sort of shady pay thing, like that college scandal from a couple years ago. 

[chitowngirl]

Get off your high horse Darlene. 

[StaceyNotStacie]

4 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

"I wish he'd hit the books, it might help him relax."

"You took that to a really weird place...".

LOL. 

Wow. That scene between Becky and Dan. That was intense. They needed that, though, I'm glad they were able to get some stuff off their chests. My heart breaks for Becky, with all of her regrets over the path her life has taken. And she's also realizing that a lot of the things her parents warned her about when she started getting so wrapped up in Mark as a teenager were right, and that's a tough pill to swallow, too. 

But I really hope Dan's right and that moment between them did prove beneficial for her and her efforts to work through her issues. Robin coming to see her at the end was nice, too :). 

That was a good scene, but I wish they would have mentioned everything that was going on at the time. It wasn’t just Mark. They failed to mention the loss of the bike shop and the lack of jobs in the Conner household at the time. 

[Snow Apple]

They rewrote history again. Dan may be disappointed how Becky's life turned out but he  liked Mark. Now he's saying he always hated him and glad he died. At least we now know how Mark died.

I guess young Mark no longer wear skirts? 

Did I miss the reference to doll heads?

Edited April 22, 2021 by Snow Apple

[StaceyNotStacie]

3 minutes ago, Snow Apple said:

They rewrote history again. Dan may be disappointed how Becky's life turned out but he  liked Mark. Now he's saying he always hated him and glad he died. At least we now know how Mark died.

I guess young Mark no longer wear skirts? 

Did I miss the reference to doll heads?

I must have missed this. How did Mark actually die?

I’m guessing he blamed Mark because he didn’t want to accept his role in why she felt she had to elope. 

[Irate Panda]

1 minute ago, Stacey1014 said:

I must have missed this. How did Mark actually die?

I’m guessing he blamed Mark because he didn’t want to accept his role in why she felt she had to elope. 

A deer ran in front of his motorcycle, so he crashed.

[Snow Apple]

1 minute ago, Stacey1014 said:

I must have missed this. How did Mark actually die?

 

A deer ran in front of his motorcycle.

[71dude]

Mark shot up in a hurry. 

[Cherpumple]

I loved the scene between Dan and Becky. Finally, some real talk about Mark's death! And they actually brought up stuff that really happened, like Mark promising the Conners that Becky would finish school, and Becky and Mark using their gift money to send Mark to trade school, which he then flunked. It was heartbreaking to see Becky face her grief and regrets, but I'm glad that it finally happened.

45 minutes ago, Snow Apple said:

They rewrote history again. Dan may be disappointed how Becky's life turned out but he  liked Mark. Now he's saying he always hated him and glad he died.

That was my initial reaction too, but now I can buy it. I'm sure his feelings towards Mark are complicated. Yes, they did eventually become friends, and Dan defended Mark on several occasions, but I can totally believe that after he died and Dan watched Becky sink into depression and alcoholism with no financial security or education to fall back on, that Dan's feelings hardened and reverted back to "I wish they'd never met." He went through a similar thing with David in the original run. He didn't like him at first (guilt by association with Mark), then warmed up to him when David moved in, then went ballistic when he found out that David moved to Chicago to be with Darlene. Suddenly he blamed David for the whole thing and painted him as a manipulative schemer who forced Darlene into it. Luckily Roseanne was around to say "have you even met Darlene?" and they patched things up, but this obviously wasn't an option with Mark. This time Dan was just stuck watching his daughter suffer, with no one to blame or yell at except a dead man.

Darlene is a terrible person and a terrible mother. I guess I shouldn't be surprised at what she did, since she had no qualms about cheating when she was in school, but I was still appalled. And her rant to the teacher was wildly misplaced. Do we have any indication that she had done anything to help Mark during all these weeks that he was studying so hard? It sounded like she left him to his own devices while he ran himself ragged, then came up with an idiotic plan at the 11th hour, and then screamed and stamped her feet when it didn't work. I dearly hope that Mark gets out of that house as soon as possible, and takes Mary with him.

[UYI]

If this episode didn't convince anyone that Lecy Goranson is the MVP of this show, and that she is basically carrying it on its back more than half of the time, I'm afraid nothing else will. I will be SO pissed if she doesn't FINALLY get her first Emmy nomination for this episode alone.

I'm also glad they finally acknowledged how Mark died, and that they didn't make it a drug overdose, given that's how Glenn Quinn died in real life.

There was a lot of history mined here regarding how Becky & Mark got together, but there are two big things this episode missed:

1. The big reason Becky eloped with Mark is because she had just been told that there was no money to send her to a four year college like she had always wanted (and she felt like she would be selling herself short by working her way through community college--the stigma towards community college has lessened considerably since 1992, thankfully), and so she convinced Mark to get married so they could still be together. Also, and don't forget this: SHE was the one who proposed to Mark, not the other way around, as Mark made abundantly clear to Roseanne at the time. Otherwise, they basically got it right.

2. While it's true that Dan was very angry when they first got married (giving them the silent treatment when they returned to pick up her stuff, for one thing), it's complicated by the fact that DAN GENUINELY LIKED AND RESPECTED MARK overall for his work ethic as a mechanic--he may not have wanted Becky to get married as young as she did, but he saw Mark as providing for them as a couple, especially compared to David.

But yes, as someone said above, I can see Dan reversing course on that line of thinking after seeing where Becky has gone in life over the years.

Also: Did anyone take Darlene and Jackie's conversation about the younger Mark (who suddenly exists again, I see) possibly "hitting the books" as a callback to Darlene tormenting DJ about being "caught playing with his instrument in band" in the bathroom back in the day? ("Which means he's either REALLY, REALLY good at it...or REALLY, REALLY bad at it.")

Speaking of DJ, he had more than one scene today, and one of the funniest lines of the show!

(Which now I can't remember, BAH!...It was at the the rehab clinic, though!)

Edited April 22, 2021 by UYI

[bamlou]

59 minutes ago, Cherpumple said:

2 hours ago, Snow Apple said:

They rewrote history again. Dan may be disappointed how Becky's life turned out but he  liked Mark. Now he's saying he always hated him and glad he died.

That was my initial reaction too, but now I can buy it. I'm sure his feelings towards Mark are complicated. Yes, they did eventually become friends, and Dan defended Mark on several occasions, but I can totally believe that after he died and Dan watched Becky sink into depression and alcoholism with no financial security or education to fall back on, that Dan's feelings hardened and reverted back to "I wish they'd never met."

 I had a similar knee-jerk reaction that they completely dismissed how Mark was eventually accepted back into Dan’s good graces after the elopement, and that Dan had some respect for Mark’s loyalty and work ethic. But as Becky and Dan were hashing out how Mark played into Becky never finishing school or going to college, I started to understand how Dan could still hold a grudge against Mark for where Becky’s life has ended up. 

I think you sum up really well how complicated Dan’s feelings could be and how they could have changed over time. It’s just too bad that some of that nuance wasn’t conveyed in Dan’s anger talking about Mark - just a line or two to acknowledge that Dan grew to accept him but still held some resentment, rather than making it all anger which is not how we remember it. Because otherwise, I ended up really liking the scene and that they addressed how Mark’s death pushed her further down this life path she never saw for herself. Lecy really sold it.

I’m not sure how I feel about the reveal of how Mark died. Motorcycle accident being hit by a deer? I don’t hate it. But I guess after all this time wondering it just seems a little anti-climactic, or I wanted more from it when it was revealed, rather than it being mentioned in such a throw-away moment.

Edited April 22, 2021 by bamlouie

[Bastet]

Yes, Dan simplified what was a very layered history, but would he realistically, after all this time, having come to resent Mark again (who knows what happened between when we last saw everyone and when he died), believe it to be the way he said?  It's entirely possible; he can be irrational, selective in his memory and empathy, and wearing some real blinders when it comes to those he loves.  Especially when, in a situation he didn't feel comfortable in to begin with, Becky presented an unrealistically rosy picture of her life with Mark, like things were going great and only his death caused her to totally stall out in life.

And the writers had the trade school details right, so I don't know that this was a continuity error, I think this was mostly a characterization choice.  Dan could have instead said something more like, "Look, I used to respect the guy and hoped you might make something work despite the odds, but he never got his act together and intentionally held you back in life, and it just got worse after his death.  You'd have had a better life without him altogether." 

But it still works as it is, especially with Lecy's incredible acting when Becky admitted she's angry, too - at Mark and mostly at herself.  Becky saying, "I wasted so much time ... and now I'm so far behind, I'll never catch up.  Remember how proud you were?" made me cry.  The regret of squandered potential, and the feeling you're too far down a hole to ever climb out, hurts like hell.

That whole family scene was great, with D.J.'s funny line about his meteoric rise in the vending machine industry driving Becky to drink when she was supposed to be the success story of the family and Darlene saying it's been hard to watch her struggle.

But it became truly fantastic when it was just Becky and Dan.  They continue to have the greatest dynamic of the revival and then this spin-off. 

Robin coming to visit Becky was great; I love how they mostly dislike each other but have this grudging respect that makes them not want the other to get screwed by life.

[qtpye]

3 hours ago, RocknRollZombie said:

Like is it possible to be mad for a fictional character. Like I’m pissed that they are pinning the blame on Mark. 
 

like geez Dan what about your bike shop, what about the bond/relationship you had with him.

 

like this episode has me pissed.  Like it the final push/nail in the coffin for me. I stuck as long as I could but this is it. 
 

hope you all enjoy the remaining episodes and whatever else they decide to butcher.

 

2 hours ago, Stacey1014 said:

I must have missed this. How did Mark actually die?

I’m guessing he blamed Mark because he didn’t want to accept his role in why she felt she had to elope. 

 

1 hour ago, Cherpumple said:

I loved the scene between Dan and Becky. Finally, some real talk about Mark's death! And they actually brought up stuff that really happened, like Mark promising the Conners that Becky would finish school, and Becky and Mark using their gift money to send Mark to trade school, which he then flunked. It was heartbreaking to see Becky face her grief and regrets, but I'm glad that it finally happened.

That was my initial reaction too, but now I can buy it. I'm sure his feelings towards Mark are complicated. Yes, they did eventually become friends, and Dan defended Mark on several occasions, but I can totally believe that after he died and Dan watched Becky sink into depression and alcoholism with no financial security or education to fall back on, that Dan's feelings hardened and reverted back to "I wish they'd never met." He went through a similar thing with David in the original run. He didn't like him at first (guilt by association with Mark), then warmed up to him when David moved in, then went ballistic when he found out that David moved to Chicago to be with Darlene. Suddenly he blamed David for the whole thing and painted him as a manipulative schemer who forced Darlene into it. Luckily Roseanne was around to say "have you even met Darlene?" and they patched things up, but this obviously wasn't an option with Mark. This time Dan was just stuck watching his daughter suffer, with no one to blame or yell at except a dead man.

Darlene is a terrible person and a terrible mother. I guess I shouldn't be surprised at what she did, since she had no qualms about cheating when she was in school, but I was still appalled. And her rant to the teacher was wildly misplaced. Do we have any indication that she had done anything to help Mark during all these weeks that he was studying so hard? It sounded like she left him to his own devices while he ran himself ragged, then came up with an idiotic plan at the 11th hour, and then screamed and stamped her feet when it didn't work. I dearly hope that Mark gets out of that house as soon as possible, and takes Mary with him.

This episode really brought up some conflicted feelings. First, Dan seem to forget that his failed bike shop made Becky think that college was never going to happen and that’s the main reason she ran off and married Mark. She felt her good grades were wasted in community college...not an uncommon sentiment at the time.

Mark worked hard so she could go to community college in Minnesota. I remember when she was decided to reapply to college and was talking about being a doctor. The whole family took it as a given that this would happen even though, again she did not even complete community college.

It always seemed to me she was a good student by Lanford standards but did not have the discipline to be successful in a more competitive environment.

I am not saying Mark was perfect but he really makes a far too easy scapegoat. I do think by the time they moved in the trailer he was afraid of losing her if she achieved academic success.

 

[Irate Panda]

Every week I think that I can’t dislike Darlene more, and every week I am wrong.

[DB in CMH]

33 minutes ago, qtpye said:

 

I'm not saying Mark was perfect but he really makes a far too easy scapegoat. I do think by the time they moved in the trailer he was afraid of losing her if she achieved academic success.

 

I seem to recall one episode where that point was specifically made. Roseanne threatening Mark in the trailer, or something like that. Season 7?

[chocolatine]

The storyline with Mark not knowing about the quadratic equation because Darlene can't afford a tutor for him may have worked 20 years ago, but in this day and age there are plenty of free online resources for learning math (Khan Academy, Math Is Fun, Wikipedia, etc). Even just googling "quadratic equation" returns the formula right there on the search results page. Mark is a smart kid, he would have for sure been able to find that information on his own. It seems like the show wants Darlene to have a new "crusade" every episode and they're grasping at straws.

I'm glad to finally know how Becky's Mark died and that it wasn't from a drug overdose. I know Dan ended up reconciling with Mark in the original, but I can see him being angry and disappointed with the way Becky's life turned out and dead Mark being easier to blame than holding Becky accountable for her own choices (like not even trying to get loans or scholarships for university after she found out her parents couldn't help her pay for it; it still boggles my mind 25+ years later that she didn't).

Edited April 22, 2021 by chocolatine

[LekoBoy]

What Darlene showed Mark was not the quadratic equation.  Darlene cheated wrong.  That should count for something.

 

[nokat]

10 hours ago, Snow Apple said:

They rewrote history again. Dan may be disappointed how Becky's life turned out but he  liked Mark. Now he's saying he always hated him and glad he died. At least we now know how Mark died.

I was like damn Dan, Becky loved Mark and is still experiencing grief. Stick the knife in why don't you.

It was nice to see D.J. again.

Edited April 22, 2021 by nokat

[nokat]

Lecy is so good. I got teary for Becky. That scene with Dan was so good. "You can't be angry at a dead person." "Yes you can." "I'm angry at me, because I let him take my college money."

[MissLucas]

I suck at math but all Darlene did was holding up a sign with the equation - clearly Mark should have no problems memorizing that. Application and solution are where things get thorny. Hearing him say that he picked it out of a multiple choice question didn't make things better. Or convince me that he's incredibly clever. And geez, when did Ames McNamara have that gigantic growth spurt? I can't remember Mark towering over Darlene like this. Also: the scene at the kitchen table with Darlene moaning about her lack of resources to hire a tutor had me roll my eyes. Apparently we're supposed to forget about those plane tickets with the magical refund if they don't suit the story line. And as others have mentioned: the internet is full of helpful resources a smart kid could use to his advantage (Skillshare for example offers a free trial version for 14 days, enough time to cover the Basics of Algebra.) 

There might have been some retconning but I'm glad the show finally went to the origin of Becky's drinking problem. Her hashing it out with Dan was a powerful well acted scene. Now it would be nice to see her making some progress but this show loves to keep its characters down so I'm not too hopeful.

And while I had to laugh at Harris' mini-plot - are we supposed to think they can't afford a nappy-bin in the garage?

[kassa]

9 hours ago, bamlouie said:

 I had a similar knee-jerk reaction that they completely dismissed how Mark was eventually accepted back into Dan’s good graces after the elopement, and that Dan had some respect for Mark’s loyalty and work ethic. But as Becky and Dan were hashing out how Mark played into Becky never finishing school or going to college, I started to understand how Dan could still hold a grudge against Mark for where Becky’s life has ended up. 

SNIP

I’m not sure how I feel about the reveal of how Mark died. Motorcycle accident being hit by a deer? I don’t hate it. But I guess after all this time wondering it just seems a little anti-climactic, or I wanted more from it when it was revealed, rather than it being mentioned in such a throw-away moment.

Not only did Dan grow to like him, but didn't we leave Mark still employed by the town as a mechanic? It's not like he was a deadbeat - that job/benefits WOULD let Becky go to school if she wanted. I do appreciate people's suggestions of the layering of years of emotions settling on anger. I do wonder at the timeline, though -- have they established WHEN he died? Was she a new widow at the time the show started, or had he died shortly after we left them in the original run, living in the trailer? 

My brother in law was killed in a car accident at 35 -the freaky thing about accidents is how they're nearly always banal. 

 

9 hours ago, Bastet said:

But it still works as it is, especially with Lecy's incredible acting when Becky admitted she's angry, too - at Mark and mostly at herself.  Becky saying, "I wasted so much time ... and now I'm so far behind, I'll never catch up.  Remember how proud you were?" made me cry.  The regret of squandered potential, and the feeling you're too far down a hole to ever climb out, hurts like hell.

That whole family scene was great, with D.J.'s funny line about his meteoric rise in the vending machine industry driving Becky to drink when she was supposed to be the success story of the family and Darlene saying it's been hard to watch her struggle.

 

This episode (or rather the Becky/Dan storyline) was the closest they've gotten yet to the amazing comedy/drama dynamic of the original run. It was nice seeing Goodman get to do more than snark about being poor and pathetic.  Dan was always candid but good natured about their struggles (coping mechanism, and understandably one that would fail after decades), but I don't like his new whininess. It may be realistic, but it's not comfortable watching someone you care about (and I do care about this character) doing Death of a Salesman... in a sitcom.

And they continue to destroy Jackie for absolutely no good reason, which puts me in the uncomfortable position of cringing at every scene featuring Laurie freakin' Metcalf (I know they ruined Jackie in the final years of the "real" show, but if they were going to eliminate Jerry and Andy, then for God's sake they could have retconned the Gilliganization of Jackie. ) There is no FUCKING WAY Jackie EVER smoked pot/drank with her teenage nieces. 

[ifionlyknew]

1 hour ago, nokat said:

Lecy is so good. I got teary for Becky. That scene with Dan was so good. "You can't be angry at a dead person." "Yes you can." "I'm angry at me, because I let him take my college money."

I think Becky was probably angry and resentful towards Mark before he died but she didn't acknowledge it even to herself.  She loved him but if she hadn't married him her life would have turned out differently.

9 hours ago, qtpye said:

I am not saying Mark was perfect but he really makes a far too easy scapegoat. I do think by the time they moved in the trailer he was afraid of losing her if she achieved academic success.

 

 

8 hours ago, DB in CMH said:

I seem to recall one episode where that point was specifically made. Roseanne threatening Mark in the trailer, or something like that. Season 7?

I remember that too. It was when Sarah Chalke was playing Becky if I'm not mistaken.

I know the show wanted to give Jackie something to do this episode but we never heard about her taking Becky and Darlene into the woods to smoke and drink.  Yet another missed opportunity to bring up what we did see onscreen which was Becky getting drunk with a friend.

[Snow Apple]

On a lighter note, I still don't know what the box of doll heads have to do with this episode. Did I miss it, or do you think a scene was cut out?

[Starchild]

12 hours ago, Snow Apple said:

Did I miss the reference to doll heads?

I did too. Where did a box of doll heads come in? Or was there an oblique reference I maybe didn't get? I watched "Roseanne" in its original run, but I never rewatched, and there were a lot of seasons, so it's been a long time and I don't even remember doll heads in the original.

[iMonrey]

Quote

And geez, when did Ames McNamara have that gigantic growth spurt? I can't remember Mark towering over Darlene like this. 

He's fully a head taller than her now. One of the characters should really comment on his recent growth spurt. 

Quote

I am not saying Mark was perfect but he really makes a far too easy scapegoat. I do think by the time they moved in the trailer he was afraid of losing her if she achieved academic success.

They actually addressed the notion that Becky might leave Mark when she brought up going back to school when they were living in the trailer. She still had her acceptance letter to some Illinois university and it was still good. That was a Lecy Goranson episode. But then Sarah Chalke took over the roll again and the topic of school never came up again. It was really like two completely different characters depending on which actress was playing her.

I never did understand what was happening during that season. I got the distinct impression the network lured Goranson back to the show for what was supposed to be the final season, against the wishes of Roseanne Barr, and that Roseanne made her uncomfortable enough to leave so Chalke could come back. During Roseanne's short-lived talk show she had a Roseanne reunion, and Sarah Chalke was there but not Lecy, and Roseanne referred to "that other girl" kind of snidely without ever saying her name. I think she was pissed at her for leaving the show in the first place. They apparently made amends eventually. 

[UYI]

9 hours ago, DB in CMH said:

I seem to recall one episode where that point was specifically made. Roseanne threatening Mark in the trailer, or something like that. Season 7?

Season 8, actually: The episode was called "Becky Howser, M.D."; Sarah Chalke was still playing Becky in season 7 (when they bothered to remember Becky existed, that is), and they only really bothered to remember Becky's intelligence once Lecy came back in season 8 (save for maybe Sarah's first few episodes in season 6). 

And THANK YOU to @Bastet for reminding me of the DJ line I loved so much but couldn't remember: The one about his "meteoric rise in the vending machine industry"! :D 

Edited April 22, 2021 by UYI

[UYI]

56 minutes ago, ifionlyknew said:

 

 

I remember that too. It was when Sarah Chalke was playing Becky if I'm not mistaken.

 

Just mentioned it above, but it was when Lecy's Becky returned in season 8. Sarah Chalke's Fake!Becky lost her brains in record time. 

[UYI]

19 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

 

I never did understand what was happening during that season. I got the distinct impression the network lured Goranson back to the show for what was supposed to be the final season, against the wishes of Roseanne Barr, and that Roseanne made her uncomfortable enough to leave so Chalke could come back. During Roseanne's short-lived talk show she had a Roseanne reunion, and Sarah Chalke was there but not Lecy, and Roseanne referred to "that other girl" kind of snidely without ever saying her name. I think she was pissed at her for leaving the show in the first place. They apparently made amends eventually. 

Lecy left at the beginning of season 5 to go to Vassar College, but when it looked like the show would end after season 8, she wanted to return and get to finish the show. She was a senior at Vassar that season, though, which meant her college schedule prevented her from doing the Disney World episode, which is why Sarah was in those two episodes instead ("Aren't you glad you're here this week?"). She did the second half of season 8's finale (with Sarah in the first half), but when Roseanne decided on a ninth season, Lecy left and Sarah finished out the show instead. Whether there was any kind of falling out, I don't know (I remember the 1998 reunion on Roseanne's daytime talk show but not "the other girl" comment--given how close knit that cast always was, it's possible it wasn't any negative snark at all), but clearly they patched things up (until 2018, of course). 

Edited April 22, 2021 by UYI

[Snow Apple]

53 minutes ago, Starchild said:

I did too. Where did a box of doll heads come in? Or was there an oblique reference I maybe didn't get? I watched "Roseanne" in its original run, but I never rewatched, and there were a lot of seasons, so it's been a long time and I don't even remember doll heads in the original.

In the original Rosanne, Becky and Darlene were cleaning DJ's room and found a box of doll heads (Barbie, Cher, GI Joe) and another box of doll body parts. They were totally creeped out. It was the episode where Jackie got shot and she moved into DJ's room until she gets better.

With DJ in this episode, I suspect they referenced it but the scene/line got cut?

Edited April 22, 2021 by Snow Apple

[nokat]

1 hour ago, ifionlyknew said:

I think Becky was probably angry and resentful towards Mark before he died but she didn't acknowledge it even to herself.  She loved him but if she hadn't married him her life would have turned out differently.

I like that the show touched on this. I think that was such a cathartic moment for Becky and for a lot of viewers. Yes, you can be angry through the grief. Becky was the one who was smart and college was in her future. I can see Dan being angry too because she was the golden child. I didn't like him attacking her because with her upbringing, bad choices aren't surprising.

[MissLucas]

9 minutes ago, Snow Apple said:

I'm the original Rosanne, Becky and Darlene were cleaning DJ's room and found a box of doll heads (Barbie, Cher, GI Joe) and another box of doll body parts. They were totally creeped out. It was the episode where Jackie got shot and she moved into DJ's room until she gets better.

With DJ in this episode, I suspect they referenced it but the scene/line got cut?

Maybe they realized that this would remind the audience of creepy kid DJ? Even in the times before Criminal Minds & Co. the writing for the character often left me feeling uneasy. Adult DJ gives off a completely different vibe and I'm glad about that.

[Brn2bwild]

I liked the Becky/Dan scene for the most part, but it did feel a little forced.  I wish they had had this discussion without the structure of a therapy session - back in the old days, this type of argument would have erupted naturally in the kitchen (or in this case, a hallway or parking lot of the rehab facility).  Also, even though Becky reached uncomfortable truths, it felt like she was pushed in a direction she might not have gone otherwise.  She might have been mad at Mark (and herself), but she also was very regretful he was gone, and she should have been allowed to explore all of her feelings toward him.

As an aside, if Mark died via motorcycle, how was David involved?  I recall earlier seasons suggested that David was partially responsible for Mark's death and David left his family because he felt guilty.  

[snarkylady]

So much to appreciate in this episode.  I don't remember ever thinking that Lecy Goranson was a particularly strong actress but I certainly think that now.  For me the two best actors in the original sitcom were Laurie Metcalf (at least until they sabotaged her character and she started chewing the scenery) and of course John Goodman.  John Goodman and Lecy Goranson made this season with last night's episode.  Kudos to both and to the show writers for constructing such a strong scene.

Did Dan express sentiments that I didn't think he held in the original series?  Yes.  But it doesn't matter how Dan interacted with Mark in the original show.  We can assume that over the years he reflected on how Becky's life turned out and a hatred for Mark festered all that time.

[ifionlyknew]

10 minutes ago, snarkylady said:

Did Dan express sentiments that I didn't think he held in the original series?  Yes.  But it doesn't matter how Dan interacted with Mark in the original show.  We can assume that over the years he reflected on how Becky's life turned out and a hatred for Mark festered all that time.

That does happen.  And we didn't see what took place between the end of season 10 and the start of the reboot.  During the original series Dan did come to respect Mark (I would use the word tolerate) but that doesn't mean he didn't still think he held Becky back. I think Dan saw the same thing happening to Becky that happened to Roseanne.  She married someone and had kids and put her dreams on hold.  He wanted more for her.

[mojoween]

Knowing that Glenn Quinn died a long time ago, the writers having Dan say that he was glad Mark is dead made me uneasy.  They could have had that whole scene still, but said something different.

[bad things are bad]

In theoretical Roseanneland, the Conners would have been poor enough for Becky to have gotten a lot of financial aid. Am I forgetting some reason that wasn't an option? In the 80s, tuition wasn't as insane as it is now, and you could go to school on financial aid and a part time job. 

[UYI]

13 minutes ago, bad things are bad said:

In theoretical Roseanneland, the Conners would have been poor enough for Becky to have gotten a lot of financial aid. Am I forgetting some reason that wasn't an option? In the 80s, tuition wasn't as insane as it is now, and you could go to school on financial aid and a part time job. 

The way I remember it was that when Becky found out there was no money to send her to college, Dan told her she could still get a scholarship of some sort, to which Becky responded, "MAYBE, Dad, a BIG, BIG MAYBE." And given that neither of her parents had gone to college and that the Internet was still a few years away from really taking off (1992 vs. 1995), I could see how they wouldn't know how to properly go about it, and Becky not thinking it would work out for her if she tried due to the old "too poor to afford college, not poor enough to qualify for certain financial aid" problem. 

And of course, she saw going to community college as a way at being stuck at home even longer than she wanted to be (which of course happened anyway once she and Mark came back from Minneapolis and then again when she had Beverly Rose years later), and a waste of a chance to go to a true four year college that she felt she and her grades qualified her for.

That's one thing that I like now about Becky's story: There's a chance for her to show some humility and see the value of at least starting school again at a community college, even if it will be harder for her now that she's a mom, and maybe still getting a chance to transfer to a four year school down he road. It's optimistic, yes, but her story is the one thing the show has going for it now so I'll keep the faith! :) 

Edited April 22, 2021 by UYI

[nokat]

6 minutes ago, UYI said:

"too poor to afford college, not poor enough to qualify for certain financial aid" problem.

That happened to me. It meant working my way through college back when you could do that. The debt people find themselves in is horrible.

[ifionlyknew]

25 minutes ago, UYI said:

The way I remember it was that when Becky found out there was no money to send her to college, Dan told her she could still get a scholarship of some sort, to which Becky responded, "MAYBE, Dad, a BIG, BIG MAYBE." And given that neither of her parents had gone to college and that the Internet was still a few years away from really taking off (1992 vs. 1995), I could see how they wouldn't know how to properly go about it, and Becky not thinking it would work out for her if she tried due to the old "too poor to afford college, not poor enough to qualify for certain financial aid" problem. 

I remember being shocked Becky thought her parents had a college fund for her.  Had she not seen her parents struggle to pay the bills her entire life? 

10 minutes ago, RocknRollZombie said:

one thing that still pisses me off thinking back to the episode. That Dan wished Mark would have died sooner. That if Mark really loved Becky he would have died sooner. 

I think that was a little overboard.  I don't think they needed to have Dan say that.

[kassa]

DJ's career in vending machines always gives me pause, because at least where I live, that's mob stuff.   Maybe the dolls' heads WAS foreshadowing.

I don't know about Roseanne's actual relationship with Lecy (except the fun story of when Lecy wanted to cut her hair and the show runner wouldn't permit it, so Roseanne grabbed some scissors and cut it so that they could blame HER.) But I have a vague recollection that there were some social media postings Lecy made after she left the show the first time that were problematic enough to have gotten public attention decades before that was a frequent occurrence. Drunken college statements? I can't find the particulars, but am I the only one who remembers this?

[UYI]

2 hours ago, ifionlyknew said:

I remember being shocked Becky thought her parents had a college fund for her.  Had she not seen her parents struggle to pay the bills her entire life? 

 

I could kind of forgive that just because she was still a teenager and part of her wanted to believe that they might have left some money aside for her, and not basically put everything in the bike shop. Ditto why she might have thought getting scholarships/loans/financial aid for college was hopeless and she decided to ask Mark to marry her instead. Wishful thinking/assumptions that she thought might be true. It wouldn't work for her now, but when she was a teenager? Yeah, I buy it. 

Edited April 22, 2021 by UYI

[bobalina]

8 minutes ago, UYI said:

I could kind of forgive that just because she was still a teenager and part of her wanted to believe that might have left some money aside for her, and not basically put everything in the bike shop. Ditto why she might have thought getting scholarships/loans/financial aid for college was hopeless and she decided to ask Mark to marry her instead. Wishful thinking/assumptions that she thought might be true. It wouldn't work for her now, but when she was a teenager? Yeah, I buy it. 

When Becky asked about her college fund Roseanne said there was but it had been a rough year.

[peacheslatour]

6 minutes ago, bobalina said:

When Becky asked about her college fund Roseanne said there was but it had been a rough year.

I doubt very much there ever was one. Roseanne and Dan lived hand to mouth the whole time they were married. Roseanne used to brag about using tricks like "forgetting" to sign the check or sending the electric payment to the water company. They never had any savings of any kind. They were instant gratification idiots.

[nokat]

7 hours ago, snarkylady said:

I don't remember ever thinking that Lecy Goranson was a particularly strong actress but I certainly think that now.

I didn't think so in the original either, but she is killing it with the writing for her on this. Laurie Metcalf won three emmys on the original. They're not giving her the material that she could kill, and (sorry, John )Goodman is good with worthy material too. I find Sarah the weak link. 

Edited April 22, 2021 by nokat