S05.E13: Brotherly Love

[KaveDweller]

16 hours ago, chocolatine said:

Of course, because Randall cannot be expected to take on the burden of being his brother's best man unless Kevin comes to him and atones for all the "sins" he committed as a child.

To be fair, Randall did not ask Kevin to come see him. He accepted being Kevin's best man immediately. Kevin then when on to say he wanted to clear the air first and then offered to come see him. It would have been rude for Kevin to say he wanted to clear the air before his wedding and then demand Randall come to them.

I was glad they both apologized, but they did not actually address the issue at the heart of their fight, which was Randall manipulating Rebecca into joining the trial. That was wrong no matter what happened to him when they were kids.

8 hours ago, ams1001 said:

We even saw it at Mr. Rogers. The guy handing out the passes assumed Randall wasn't with Jack and Kevin because he didn't look like them, and Jack's response was to try to get Randall a better seat while Kevin stood to the side hearing this and looking sad. (Then Jack wonders why Kevin is acting out, saying he can't see and wants to switch seats with Randall, and then wanting to go to the park instead.)

Or their child is a lesbian with a they-friend, instead of a boyfriend, which we saw Beth struggling with last week.

Didn't Randall say (or at least imply) that he didn't have any black adults in his life (hence his fantasy parents being the weatherman and the librarian). They seem to have forgotten all about the friend from the pool (despite the fact that they had pictures of them in the house, implying that they remained friends for a long time).

We saw in this episode that Randall started having his ghost fantasy when he was little (4/5ish). They didn't meet that family at the pool until he was older.

[debraran]

9 minutes ago, KaveDweller said:

To be fair, Randall did not ask Kevin to come see him. He accepted being Kevin's best man immediately. Kevin then when on to say he wanted to clear the air first and then offered to come see him. It would have been rude for Kevin to say he wanted to clear the air before his wedding and then demand Randall come to them.

I was glad they both apologized, but they did not actually address the issue at the heart of their fight, which was Randall manipulating Rebecca into joining the trial. That was wrong no matter what happened to him when they were kids.

We saw in this episode that Randall started having his ghost fantasy when he was little (4/5ish). They didn't meet that family at the pool until he was older.

This picture was on Pearson's mantle in earlier episode and later I think Randall wanted to go to Howard to be with her son. (not positive) I feel for whatever reason they were ignored after that episode but funny that this pic was on mantle.

[marceline]

4 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

Part of me wondered if Mr. Rogers was just hiding himself under that display the entire time on the off chance a child with issues happened to wander by.  

That's exactly what I've chosen to believe. Maybe Fred Rogers was backstage taking off his mic, sweater, and the Daniel Striped Tiger puppet when he heard the Jack/Kevin/Randall stuff happening out front and since he still had the puppet on, Rogers decided to engage a lone child who needed some attention.
 

21 hours ago, mtlchick said:

Well, that all happened. I was sort of expecting for Tom Hanks to show up as Mr Rogers.

Same. I was also dreading it. I'd like for Kevin's next role to be something small in an upcoming Tom Hanks project. Because I wouldn't mind seeing Hanks do a cameo.

 

Edited April 15, 2021 by marceline

[ItCouldBeWorse]

6 hours ago, Ohmo said:

Kevin's always going to be white, just like my siblings are always not going to have disabilities.

I hope the latter is true, but the fact that anyone can develop a disability and thus have a greater understanding of others who also do, means that the two situations are not entirely analogous.

[BoogieBurns]

8 hours ago, Liquid6 said:

it breaks my heart to come into this forum weekly and see all of the “Randall’s entitled, whiney, ungrateful, selfish etc.” comments from people who will NEVER understand Randall’s side for the obvious reason.

Every. Week. I totally agree. All characters are flawed, but Randall never gets a break on this forum. geesh

[Ohmo]

1 minute ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

I hope the latter is true, but the fact that anyone can develop a disability and thus have a greater understanding of others who also do, means that the two situations are not entirely analogous.

True statement.  I was thinking of my own context, not globally.  I was born with my disability.  My siblings were not.  In that sense, I'd consider the two scenarios somewhat analogous.  It is definitely true that anyone can become disabled at any point in life, but that experience is different from those who are born with disabilities.  My siblings will never become disabled in the manner that I did.

[ifionlyknew]

1 hour ago, debraran said:

 They also were asked about Kevin feelings with Kyle but they didn't seem to want to explore it although they acknowledged it would be normal to wonder about your brother you never got to know.

 

Of course they aren't interested in that because it's not about Randall. I agree with the poster who said it would be interesting to see what one of them thinks would happen if Kyle had survived. And they could make it about Randall because if Kyle did survive Randall would not be a Pearson. 

[madmax]

21 hours ago, OnlyFactsMatter said:

Already covered in the season premiere (Randall actually apologized directly to Rebecca). But I guess it's easier for character hatred to blind the haters from the facts 😁

Maybe Randall should apologize to Kevin and Kate for thinking he knows best and going behind their backs?

 

20 hours ago, Gwendolyn said:

If the show wanted this to be all about Kevin grovelling and getting Randall's forgiveness, then they needed a better backstory than the one they've portrayed on screen. Kevin can be a dick, but when it comes to the important things, the stuff that really matters he's there for Randall, can Randall say the same thing? Probably, but the show isn't showing it, they're telling so the balance of what they were going for versus the story they showed us was off.

Yes, 1000 yes.  Randall became the breakout character (because of Sterling K. Brown's excellent acting) so everything is about him and how HE is affected.  Forget that Kevin left his Broadway premiere to help Randall...

20 hours ago, Bulldog said:

To think, Randall was once my favorite character on this show.  Those days are long gone. 

Same here.  I hated Kevin, loved Randall, and that's been reversed right quick since last season.

14 hours ago, t7686 said:

As someone who was called an Oreo many times growing up and never feeling like I fit in anywhere, I get Randall’s issues. Can he be an ass? Absolutely! But I think they were trying to speak a little on the climate right now. 

I wonder if this was what they originally intended or if circumstances caused them to change direction?

5 hours ago, marceline said:

It's kind of funny to realize that Randall and Kevin keep defaulting to public brawling to solve their disagreements. Their fight on the side of the road reminded me of when they did the same thing in NYC and Seth Meyers interrupted them. I know that scene was supposed to be played for laughs but I was terrified that the police would roll up on Randall and Kevin fighting.

I totally expected the cops to pull up after that cabbie kicked them out.  

 

This episode was well acted, as they typically are, but really very exhausting.

[BoogieBurns]

7 hours ago, OdinO. said:

If they weren't so out of it in opiates, they very likely might have aborted him. 

Laurel got clean in hopes of making a wonderful life for her baby. She wasn't planning to abort him.

[Boo Boo]

So how many months has it been since the argument occurred?  Why does Kevin wait until he has newborn twins to go visit Philly and has it out?

And goddamn that was a LONG LONG episode to get to some sort of resolution.

I love Sterling; he's an amazing actor.  I just wish they didn't make Randall become so insufferable now. 

[ECM1231]

Randall was intellectually gifted but why did Jack and Rebecca send him to that private school?  It was so long ago and I can't quite remember but I thought it was just a private school, which doesn't necessarily mean it was the best fit for gifted children.  Did the local public school not have any classes for gifted students? Wouldn't it have been better for Randall to have attended his local public school? Being that they lived in Pittsburgh, a city, there were bound to be other students of color and Randall would not have felt so out of place.  When I was a student many moons ago, schools had tracking and grouped students in either honors, 'regular' classes or the slower track.  I don't know if they still do that but when my children were in elementary school they did have an enrichment program for gifted students. Wasn't that possible in the 1980s in Pittsburgh? At least Randall would have seen other students who looked like him.

 

[Ohmo]

1 minute ago, ECM1231 said:

Randall was intellectually gifted but why did Jack and Rebecca send him to that private school? 

I believe they sent him because one of his early teachers told Jack and Rebecca that he was academically gifted.  Plus, I think the school offered him a scholarship.  I completely think that Jack and Rebecca regarded that based on their own experience,  Jack came from a family where college was never an option.  Rebecca came from money, but her talents were more musical, not traditionally academic. I don't think the idea of race registered with them. It was more about giving their academically gifted child an opportunity that either they didn't have (Rebecca) or couldn't have had (Jack).

[Boo Boo]

21 hours ago, Jeddah said:

It always bothers me that everyone forgets Kyle. Randall wants acknowledgement that he lost his birth parents the day he was adopted. Rebecca and Jack’s baby had just died. Kate and Kevin lost their third triplet. Talk about a ghost world. What if Kyle had survived? I’m sure Randall doesn’t care because the only victim in any situation is Randall, and Randall alone.

I hate the way this show handles adoption. So many of Randall’s issues stem from being adopted, but he hasn’t been concerned in years about any issues Deja might have. He was adopted as a baby. She was adopted as a teen. Being abandoned at a fire station is traumatic, obviously. But I think being rejected by a mother who has known you your entire life is equally traumatic, if not worse. He’s allowed to be bitter about everything, meanwhile he hasn’t even shown Deja that he cares about her more than he cares about her boyfriend. She had to point out to him that he should care about her first. I think Randall thinks being adopted was complicated for him, but Deja should just feel lucky to have been adopted by him.

Exactly.  I mean, they were babies in the womb for 9 months.  That HAS to have left some sort of emotional scar on both Kevin and Kate. 

I also thought the same thing about Deja.  I really would love for them to do a spinoff show where Deja struggles with her adoption when she's Randall's age.  

[ElectricBoogaloo]

11 hours ago, Crs97 said:

I was especially annoyed that we had to get another dig at Kevin’s acting.  Apparently he is very good, but you wouldn’t know that by Randall or his neighbors.

And he got a Golden Globe nomination for that Stallone film!

11 hours ago, Haleth said:

Surely Randall knows what life would have been like with William and Laurel.  He knows it would not have been a bed of roses and he would likely not have anything he has now, including his beautiful family.  I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with having a fantasy since we know he loves the family he grew up with.  He doesn't seem to be in the same place as the woman last week who told her perfectly lovely adopted family she'd rather have been with the bio mother who gave her up.  You can imagine another life without regretting the one you have.

Many happy well adjusted people have imagined a Sliding Doors situation about what their lives would be like if XYZ had been different. That's perfectly normal. I had a very idyllic childhood but even I sometimes imagined that I was really a princess whose real family would take me away to a castle full of candy and rainbows. It's not because I didn't love my family or that I wished I had different parents. Kids fantasize all kinds of stuff because they're curious and imaginative.

When you add not knowing who your birth parents are, it makes sense that kid Randall made up an alternate reality where he had parents who looked like him. And now that he's an adult who knows his parents were addicts, his ghost kingdom at the end of the episode was a wish fulfillment fantasy where he was raised by his sober bio parents. That doesn't mean he hates the Pearsons or that he is in denial about Laurel and William being addicts. It just means he's imagining what his life would have been like if other choices had been made. He knows that William got sober and eventually stayed sober and that Laurel was sober once she found out she was pregnant so he knows they were capable of getting off drugs. His fantasy was just another "what if?" scenario.

I don't think adult Randall imagining a sober William and Laurel raising him is any weirder than people who are happily married momentarily pondering what their lives would be like if they hadn't broken up with an old boyfriend/girlfriend. It doesn't mean you're unhappily married, just that you know your life could have taken a different turn if you had made a different choice earlier in your life.

[chocolatine]

1 minute ago, Ohmo said:

I believe they sent him because one of his early teachers told Jack and Rebecca that he was academically gifted.  Plus, I think the school offered him a scholarship.

No, he was not offered a scholarship. Jack was about to quit his foreman job to start his own business - Big Three Construction, I think it was - but when the private school thing came up he took a project manager job with Miguel so they could afford the tuition. I know I criticize Jack a lot, but I was impressed that he gave up his own dream without hesitation, and never complained about it. I don't think Randall should be grateful for being adopted, but he should definitely be grateful that his lower-middle-class parents sacrificed to give him the best possible opportunities in life.

[Ohiopirate02]

38 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

No, he was not offered a scholarship. Jack was about to quit his foreman job to start his own business - Big Three Construction, I think it was - but when the private school thing came up he took a project manager job with Miguel so they could afford the tuition. I know I criticize Jack a lot, but I was impressed that he gave up his own dream without hesitation, and never complained about it. I don't think Randall should be grateful for being adopted, but he should definitely be grateful that his lower-middle-class parents sacrificed to give him the best possible opportunities in life.

Jack and Rebecca were never lower middle class.   Jack made enough money to support a family of 5, a mortgage, and a vacation home while Rebecca was a SAHM.  Not to mention the family having enough money to pay for Kevin's football, all of Randall's extracurricular activities,  and whatever else Kate did.  A true lower middle class family would be them renting a house and Rebecca working nights and weekends as a cashier or similar, the kids wearing hand-me-downs,  and the family utilizing food banks and the like.  The Pearsons were blue-collar,  but never struggled financially (random plot contrivances aside).

[circumvent]

2 hours ago, BoogieBurns said:

Every. Week. I totally agree. All characters are flawed, but Randall never gets a break on this forum. geesh

Agree. I thought it was a really hard episode to watch, and it was done pretty well. Kevin, with all his good intentions, had it all planned: I will apologize, he will understand me, everything will be fine. The moment Randall challenged him, he became defensive wondering why Randall couldn't see his side of things. That's is privilege. Kevin is only starting to see the bigger picture. 

An analogy: Kevin is dealing with racism by painting Black Lives Matter on a wall while what is needed is a whole change in the system. Painting a slogan is nice and well intentioned, but it is also virtue signaling - people do that, then go back to their regular schedule, proud of their "action". Change requires way more investment and a lot of changes in attitude, plus a whole understanding of context and history. 

Now, just to repeat myself: the casting of this show is so good, even the voices of the younger Kevin and Randall are similar. 

[Alexander Pope]

9 hours ago, chitowngirl said:

Even Kevin acknowledged that the role they were talking about was not a great role and he was not good in it.

I think he was being sarcastic.  Didn't he say he got a golden globe nomination for that role?

[chocolatine]

54 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Jack and Rebecca were never lower middle class.   Jack made enough money to support a family of 5, a mortgage, and a vacation home while Rebecca was a SAHM.  Not to mention the family having enough money to pay for Kevin's football, all of Randall's extracurricular activities,  and whatever else Kate did.  A true lower middle class family would be them renting a house and Rebecca working nights and weekends as a cashier or similar, the kids wearing hand-me-downs,  and the family utilizing food banks and the like.  The Pearsons were blue-collar,  but never struggled financially (random plot contrivances aside).

What you're describing are the working poor ("Service, low-rung clerical and some blue-collar workers. High economic insecurity and risk of poverty. Some high school education."). Lower middle class are "Semi-professionals and craftsmen with a roughly average standard of living. Most have some college education and are white-collar" - sounds like Jack and Rebecca to me. Upper middle class are "Highly-educated (often with graduate degrees), most commonly salaried, professionals and middle management with large work autonomy," like Randall and Beth.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_middle_class#Social_class_in_the_US_at_a_glance

[circumvent]

10 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I am white and will never fully understand where Randall is coming from, but the dude is selfish. 

Which doesn't deny the fact that Kevin was still looking for some sort of validation and got offended when Randall didn't immediately accepted his apologies. Randall can be both things: selfish and annoying, sometimes arrogant, and also correct in pointing out how white people's intentions only are not enough. I thought the whole thing was well done, and I wonder if they have a back character, or advisor, on staff. 

It looks like a lot of people here found the episode a little hard to watch, which is a sign that it touched a nerve, as it should have. Race relations require work, mostly from the side that is not the oppressed side. White people apologizing with the expectation that apologies will be promptly accepted so that they don't feel uncomfortable is the definition of privilege and oblivion. We need to create the space for black people - and other PoC - to be able to say, "no, your apologies are not enough, even if well intended. You need to unlearn racism and practice the unlearning everyday". That means that we need to be ready to feel uncomfortable.

[madmax]

2 hours ago, ECM1231 said:

Did the local public school not have any classes for gifted students? Wouldn't it have been better for Randall to have attended his local public school? Being that they lived in Pittsburgh, a city, there were bound to be other students of color and Randall would not have felt so out of place.  When I was a student many moons ago, schools had tracking and grouped students in either honors, 'regular' classes or the slower track.  I don't know if they still do that but when my children were in elementary school they did have an enrichment program for gifted students. Wasn't that possible in the 1980s in Pittsburgh? At least Randall would have seen other students who looked like him.

 

As a student in Pittsburgh, I can tell you that late 70s, early 80s, advanced students were actually sent one day a week to a special gifted class all day, which was always (for me) in a completely different school.  There were White, Black, Asian and Hispanic students in each of my year's classes (it tended to be the same kids, unless someone moved or someone new was added).  But the classes were predominantly white.

[estellasmum]

Dear Show:

Next time you get Brandon Victor Dixon, could you at least make him a singing weatherman? There are a lot of things that you ask me to suspend belief about, and I'm not really good at doing that, but I promise for this I happily would. 

[KaveDweller]

1 hour ago, chocolatine said:

What you're describing are the working poor ("Service, low-rung clerical and some blue-collar workers. High economic insecurity and risk of poverty. Some high school education."). Lower middle class are "Semi-professionals and craftsmen with a roughly average standard of living. Most have some college education and are white-collar" - sounds like Jack and Rebecca to me. Upper middle class are "Highly-educated (often with graduate degrees), most commonly salaried, professionals and middle management with large work autonomy," like Randall and Beth.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_middle_class#Social_class_in_the_US_at_a_glance

I think you have to look at their income too though, and not just the descriptions about job types and education. It is really the income that matters most in what kinds of lifestyle you can have.

Jack and Rebecca magically seem to have the income of upper middle class even though Jack's job doesn't fit the other characteristics of that category.

5 hours ago, debraran said:

This picture was on Pearson's mantle in earlier episode and later I think Randall wanted to go to Howard to be with her son. (not positive) I feel for whatever reason they were ignored after that episode but funny that this pic was on mantle.

Yes, it was established that they stayed friends with that family while Randall was between 8ish and 18ish. Maybe they lost touch after Jack died and Randall went off to college. Or maybe they just stopped showing them because it was no longer relevant to the story.

But they still met after Randall started having his fantasies about other parents, so what he said about the weatherman and librarian being the only black people he saw regularly at the time makes sense.

Edited April 15, 2021 by KaveDweller

[debraran]

Re Randall not getting a scholarship, I find that hard to believe but a good plot device. My daughter has worked at private school for years, most have scholarships for less affluent but deserving kids and black or any minority very smart children,usually got some help. I'm not saying since they weren't dirt poor they'd get full, but back then I knew some who got over half. I don't think Jack was pulling full freight for sure. My daughter didn't always like the class system or how students at times treated less affluent students but many schools had financial help. My son was offered half or more a his age but being afraid they would take it away or change it, made me say No. (wrong? IDK) I had heard stories from Mom's that their children, some black, some not,  in the early 90's, got over half but by the time they graduated high school, it was much less.

I don't know if he paid anything for college but he would have gotten money for Howard and most Ivies are need driven.  I don't think about it much since it's TV but I remember an article on it back then and forgot about the company dream with Jack.

[debraran]

9 hours ago, ifionlyknew said:

Of course they aren't interested in that because it's not about Randall. I agree with the poster who said it would be interesting to see what one of them thinks would happen if Kyle had survived. And they could make it about Randall because if Kyle did survive Randall would not be a Pearson. 

I never liked not having an episode where they honored Kyle as a human being and son who died full term. I think it would help healing but although Kevin could talk about Kyle, when was he ever told about him? How did Rebecca and Jack explain Randall to Kate and Kevin? Did they ever discuss how that was? Poor Randall found out about Kyle from a neighbor, how sad is that? The age he found out is important too, re Kate and Kevin. Even if Randall's skin color didn't seem odd to Kate and Kevin, especially young (the nice age of color blindness) they certainly noticed as they got older and other people questioned it. "Why is your brother black?" especially being the same age had to come up.  I don't think it was because of Randall the writers didn't care, it's because Kyle in most interviews was always a plot device for Dr K and adoption. Corny as it was, they don't like to discuss the child who had to die to get there.

One extra discussion said, although Kevin can be ghosted by Kyle, Randall had bio parents that were alive and he was denied. Kyle died and he never got to know him.  There was no way Randall's dad would get custody at that age and adoption was done, Rebecca's insecurity made Randall miss a lot of years. It's water under the bridge, many kids find out things much later in life, but secrets have a way of festering. I found it odd Rebecca hid it from Jack too but then he hid Nicky.

My kids have known black children adopted by a white Jewish family, and a gay couple and they all seemed happy. Their parents were never not aware of their challenges though. Communication is needed always. That will always be the odd thing with TIU with me, that they made the Pearson's friendless pretty much, so no one could explain to them some of the things they seemed to miss were there. No relatives, no close friends, no one to talk to other than themselves. Insular environment when you think about it. Miguel was there for a while but Rebecca needed a friend.

Edited April 15, 2021 by debraran

[OdinO.]

11 hours ago, BoogieBurns said:

Laurel got clean in hopes of making a wonderful life for her baby. She wasn't planning to abort him.

Why didn't she?

[OdinO.]

11 hours ago, BoogieBurns said:

Laurel got clean in hopes of making a wonderful life for her baby. She wasn't planning to abort him.

But she didn't make a wonderful life for Randall and neither did William. They could have aborted him, right?

[ifionlyknew]

11 minutes ago, OdinO. said:

But she didn't make a wonderful life for Randall and neither did William. They could have aborted him, right?

Why doesn't Randall have resentment towards Laurel for not trying to find him once she served her sentence?  

[ams1001]

47 minutes ago, OdinO. said:

But she didn't make a wonderful life for Randall and neither did William. They could have aborted him, right?

Not at the point where things really unraveled, which was right after he was born. They were doing well while she was pregnant, and were planning to raise their child. She didn't want to abort him.

30 minutes ago, ifionlyknew said:

Why doesn't Randall have resentment towards Laurel for not trying to find him once she served her sentence?  

That was resolved by skinny-dipping with her ghost in a gator-infested lake.

[Good Queen Jane]

10 hours ago, circumvent said:

Now, just to repeat myself: the casting of this show is so good, even the voices of the younger Kevin and Randall are similar. 

I noticed that during the scenes with twentysomething Kevin and Randall The voices were so similar that I thought that they were lip syncing to the fortysomething actors doing the actual dialogue.

[ifionlyknew]

6 minutes ago, ams1001 said:

That was resolved by skinny-dipping with her ghost in a gator-infested lake.

I always say it's the parent who sticks around that pays the price for the one who leaves.

[greekmom]

40 minutes ago, ams1001 said:

Not at the point where things really unraveled, which was right after he was born. They were doing well while she was pregnant, and were planning to raise their child. She didn't want to abort him.

That was resolved by skinny-dipping with her ghost in a gator-infested lake.

Maybe he needs to skinny dip by the cabin with ghost Jack to resolve his adoption issues.

[marceline]

13 hours ago, Boo Boo said:

So how many months has it been since the argument occurred?  Why does Kevin wait until he has newborn twins to go visit Philly and has it out?

It's been about a year. They had their fight the same day Madison told Kevin she was pregnant. He waited until now to see Randall because he's getting married and wants Randall to be his best man.

[smartymarty]

22 hours ago, Liquid6 said:

Randall taught Kevin a valuable lesson in this episode that no he doesn’t believe that Kevin is a racist, he just wants Kevin to be aware of the micro aggressions that he has spent a lifetime displaying. That was a great lesson for all white people but instead, it’s been misconstrued as another example of “Whiney Randall” by non black people. It’s disheartening yet a clear eye opener of why race relations are the way that they are now. 

My issue is that he didn't explain to Kevin all of these micro-aggressions. He was mad that Kevin did not intuit them. Why wasn't Randall, throughout their life, educating his siblings on how it is to live as a black man? My husband had little to no knowledge of micro-aggressions against women until we married and I communicated with him. It's one thing if Kevin had been blatantly racist all their life. It's another if Kevin did little things that he didn't realize were racist and instead of calling him out on it, Randall just sucked it in, only to be angry with Kevin DECADES later. [If Kevin really is an asshole to all cab drivers, call him our for that, not for racism. Of course, the show left it up in the air whether Kevin really does that.]

I'm sorry. This episode really irritated me. Not that Randall didn't have a very valid point, but that he wouldn't make that point out loud and in words. I think that's why Randall came off as whiny to some people.

[Aloeonatable]

2 hours ago, ifionlyknew said:

Why doesn't Randall have resentment towards Laurel for not trying to find him once she served her sentence?  

Children forgive their parents many times for many things. Even though Laurel was never his parent, she was his mother.

[Lady Calypso]

So, I do think this episode was very much needed. Although I was expecting a lot more than what we got (I really think they could have gone even farther with Kevin and Randall hashing things out), I do think what they gave was fairly decent. The conversation that they had wasn't meant to be pretty or nice or fair in any way, but it was necessary to talk about. But it was definitely more about Randall and the racism and microaggressions throughout his childhood (racism from others, microaggressions from Kevin and others). As a white woman, I would never fully understand Randall's feelings on his childhood. But I do think that even the microaggressions would impact him on a larger scale over the years. 

I do think that Randall could have been more open with what he wanted and been more willing to listen. I think Kevin was right in that Randall wasn't open to hearing any sort of apology at that moment because he was looking for something. Randall not being clear about that right away was also, I think, something he needed to work through. But I do think that Randall needed to be blunt and honest with Kevin about why he felt hurt by him. We know that Kevin had said microaggressions toward Randall throughout their entire childhood. I don't think Randall was wrong in his assessment of Kevin's jealousy stemming from the colour of his skin. I think that Randall was correct about Kevin's half assed apology. Kevin thought he meant well, but just saying "sorry IF I hurt you" isn't acknowledging the problem. Sometimes, you have to really get to the deep stuff for an apology to matter. Kevin needed to know WHY he was apologizing. 

I do think that the way Jack/Rebecca treated Randall was to overcompensate for Randall being black in a white family. But we also saw that it led to Kevin being ignored and somewhat neglected emotionally, which led to Kevin lashing out at Randall. There was a clear cycle that the two kept going through. 

I am also of the mindset that Randall's held on to his anger and resentment and all of his issues for far too long. I think he even mentioned that most adoptees let go of their ghost kingdom far earlier than the age of forty. So it was a nice way of showing Randall as someone who really took a long time in healing himself. I liked that he apologized to Kevin at the end as well. It was a long time coming. I just think Randall's progression this entire season has been great. We have seen him make strides this season and as irritating as he's been the past few seasons, he's made significant progress himself. Him apologizing to Kevin for what he said is something we've all asked for and never thought we'd get for thirteen episodes. 

So, I can somewhat see Randall's side in all of this but also know I'll never fully understand. But I can't say that he's being entitled when his feelings are his feelings, and he made it quite clear that he loves Kevin still and still loves his adoptive family through it all. And I hope this is finally the episode where Randall can truly move forward and be a better version of himself and also accept that he can't change the past.

[Ohiopirate02]

3 minutes ago, smartymarty said:

My issue is that he didn't explain to Kevin all of these micro-aggressions. He was mad that Kevin did not intuit them. Why wasn't Randall, throughout their life, educating his siblings on how it is to live as a black man? My husband had little to no knowledge of micro-aggressions against women until we married and I communicated with him. It's one thing if Kevin had been blatantly racist all their life. It's another if Kevin did little things that he didn't realize were racist and instead of calling him out on it, Randall just sucked it in, only to be angry with Kevin DECADES later. [If Kevin really is an asshole to all cab drivers, call him our for that, not for racism. Of course, the show left it up in the air whether Kevin really does that.]

I'm sorry. This episode really irritated me. Not that Randall didn't have a very valid point, but that he wouldn't make that point out loud and in words. I think that's why Randall came off as whiny to some people.

When it comes to things like microaggressions, the onus is on Kevin to do his own research.  His time would have been better spent reading up on microaggressions instead of his prepared apology.  Because it's the little things that eat at you and add up over the years, not the blatant racism.  Kevin went in assuming he's not racist instead of taking the time to look at his behavior over the years.  Then Randall can give Kevin the Randall specific microagressions that need to be addressed.  

[ams1001]

9 minutes ago, smartymarty said:

I'm sorry. This episode really irritated me. Not that Randall didn't have a very valid point, but that he wouldn't make that point out loud and in words. I think that's why Randall came off as whiny to some people.

I think it doesn't help that a lot of people had issues with Randall's habit of steamrolling everyone else to do what he wants. The character was getting hard to take in a lot of ways before they decided to bring in the race issues.

[sadie]

I think part of my issue with this story is, in the 80’s/early 90’s we really didn’t have the same understanding of race relations like we do now. I think it’s a tall order for Randall to judge a young Kevin for his blindness to the issue. Kevin was a dumb kid who often felt overlooked for his super special adopted brother. Randall seems blind to what Kevin went thru but he expects Kevin to do a decades back reflection on what he did wrong to Randall. It would have been interesting for them both to tell each other their recollection of the Mr Rogers event so they could both see the other side of it. I’m not dismissing Randall’s experiences as a child but he seems to think his hurts trump everyone else’s. And because it can’t be said enough “St Jack” was hardly this perfect dad they want us to believe and I’m over the flashbacks, we have had enough of a look back to get the history, can we move on please. Milo can find acting work on another show.

[cameron]

33 minutes ago, smartymarty said:

My issue is that he didn't explain to Kevin all of these micro-aggressions. He was mad that Kevin did not intuit them. Why wasn't Randall, throughout their life, educating his siblings on how it is to live as a black man? My husband had little to no knowledge of micro-aggressions against women until we married and I communicated with him. It's one thing if Kevin had been blatantly racist all their life. It's another if Kevin did little things that he didn't realize were racist and instead of calling him out on it, Randall just sucked it in, only to be angry with Kevin DECADES later. [If Kevin really is an asshole to all cab drivers, call him our for that, not for racism. Of course, the show left it up in the air whether Kevin really does that.]

I'm sorry. This episode really irritated me. Not that Randall didn't have a very valid point, but that he wouldn't make that point out loud and in words. I think that's why Randall came off as whiny to some people.

Why don't they address Randall's mico-agressions toward Kevin (for instance call him stupid on numerous occasions).

[circumvent]

31 minutes ago, smartymarty said:

Why wasn't Randall, throughout their life, educating his siblings on how it is to live as a black man?

Because it is not the job of oppressed minorities to get the non-oppressed to see their bias. I mean, if people want to understand and do better, they have to do the job. I guess it was the point Randall was trying to make. Kevin just assumed that after a "sorry" he was off the hook, no more work, not more soul searching, if you will. Moreover, there is plenty of educating out there. If people still don't understand why black boys are seen as man, while white man are seeing as boys, it is not because black people have not tried to educate us, it is because we are too comfortable just expressing outrage without really doing the work of learning.

1 minute ago, cameron said:

Why don't they address Randall's mico-agressions toward Kevin (for instance call him stupid on numerous occasions).

Because this is not a micro-aggression, because Kevin is not oppressed in any way by a system.

[circumvent]

3 minutes ago, sadie said:

I think part of my issue with this story is, in the 80’s/early 90’s we really didn’t have the same understanding of race relations like we do now. I think it’s a tall order for Randall to judge a young Kevin for his blindness to the issue. Kevin was a dumb kid who often felt overlooked for his super special adopted brother. Randall seems blind to what Kevin went thru but he expects Kevin to do a decades back reflection on what he did wrong to Randall. It would have been interesting for them both to tell each other their recollection of the Mr Rogers event so they could both see the other side of it. I’m not dismissing Randall’s experiences as a child but he seems to think his hurts trump everyone else’s. And because it can’t be said enough “St Jack” was hardly this perfect dad they want us to believe and I’m over the flashbacks, we have had enough of a look back to get the history, can we move on please. Milo can find acting work on another show.

Disagree. We didn't want to have an understanding. Malcolm X, MLK, The Mississippi murders, they all happened before the 80's. The KKK, the white supremacy marches, the way black people were portrayed on TV and movies, that was all happening in the 80's. What we didn't have was willingness to address the issues. We also had racist politicians very comfortable dog whistling their way up and through laws. The media had little or no representation. I could go on and on.

I say this in a non confrontational way, but "Randall seems to think his feelings trumps everyone else's" is the type of rationalization that keeps white people from really working on the micro aggression. It is a diversion from where the real problem lies. It is also, usually, a immediate reaction, without any thought or consideration of why someone like Randall would say/act in a certain way

[ifionlyknew]

29 minutes ago, ams1001 said:

I think it doesn't help that a lot of people had issues with Randall's habit of steamrolling everyone else to do what he wants. The character was getting hard to take in a lot of ways before they decided to bring in the race issues.

I agree. His manipulating Rebecca into going into a trial she did not want to do was a step too far for me.  He had been annoying me for a couple years but that was something I will never be able to get over.  And when Kevin brought it up this last episode Randall just ignored it.  IMO that is something that is going to have to be dealt with.  I do wonder what this season would have looked like without the pandemic. Would Rebecca have went to St. Louis?

[sadie]

2 minutes ago, circumvent said:

Disagree. We didn't want to have an understanding. Malcolm X, MLK, The Mississippi murders, they all happened before the 80's. The KKK, the white supremacy marches, the way black people were portrayed on TV and movies, that was all happening in the 80's. What we didn't have was willingness to address the issues. We also had racist politicians very comfortable dog whistling their way up and through laws. The media had little or no representation. I could go on and on.

I say this in a non confrontational way, but "Randall seems to think his feelings trumps everyone else's" is the type of rationalization that keeps white people from really working on the micro aggression. It is a diversion from where the real problem lies. It is also, usually, a immediate reaction, without any thought or consideration of why someone like Randall would say/act in a certain way

I meant no disrespect, I was a teen in the late 80’s/90’s and was pretty stupid and I think like a lot of kids I didn’t watch the news and really never occurred to me if we were guilty of these things. I was a self absorbed idiot. I guess I just wanted Randall to ask Kevin to reflect now looking back while still acknowledging Kevin didn’t know any better at the time. 

[cameron]

18 minutes ago, circumvent said:

Because it is not the job of oppressed minorities to get the non-oppressed to see their bias. I mean, if people want to understand and do better, they have to do the job. I guess it was the point Randall was trying to make. Kevin just assumed that after a "sorry" he was off the hook, no more work, not more soul searching, if you will. Moreover, there is plenty of educating out there. If people still don't understand why black boys are seen as man, while white man are seeing as boys, it is not because black people have not tried to educate us, it is because we are too comfortable just expressing outrage without really doing the work of learning.

Because this is not a micro-aggression, because Kevin is not oppressed in any way by a system.

Your right, but Randall had definite issues with Kevin growing up and made less than flattering statements to him.

[Ohiopirate02]

7 minutes ago, circumvent said:

I say this in a non confrontational way, but "Randall seems to think his feelings trumps everyone else's" is the type of rationalization that keeps white people from really working on the micro aggression. It is a diversion from where the real problem lies. It is also, usually, a immediate reaction, without any thought or consideration of why someone like Randall would say/act in a certain way

I have to disagree with you here on this.  We have seen Randall steamroll Beth over major issues before.  When we call Randall out on this it is not a diversion from the real problem.  Like I said before, this is learned behavior on his part.  For better or worse, Randall is Jack Pearson's son.  Randall grew up in a home where father knows best.  Jack consistently made unilateral decisions and Rebecca went along with it.  Randall absorbs this.  When Beth does try to stand up to Randall, he gets nasty just like Jack did.  Then Jack dies young, and Randall decides to become the "man of the house."  He has a codependent relationship with Rebecca that sees him bringing her on his dates with Beth.  Race and the transracial adoption do play roles in shaping adult Randall, but there is more going on.

[smartymarty]

49 minutes ago, circumvent said:

Because it is not the job of oppressed minorities to get the non-oppressed to see their bias.

I agree that it's not the oppressed person's burden to meet. I'm just saying that since Randall suffered these microaggressions all his life, why did he not speak up? Why wasn't there ever a conversation like "Hey guys, this white man gave me a side-eye when I was filling the car with gas, like I'd stolen the car. Did you know I get this all the time as a black person?"

The recent BLM and Me Too movements have now made whites and men aware of how their behavior affected black people and women.  I don't think we can expect Kevin to have understood these things back in his childhood.

At bottom, though, I blame Rebecca and Jack. THEY saw what Randall went through, and instead of explaining everything to all three children, they just threw extra attention on Randall. Bad parenting.

Does anyone know whether Mr. Rogers ever really had children come to the set?

[ifionlyknew]

10 minutes ago, smartymarty said:

At bottom, though, I blame Rebecca and Jack. THEY saw what Randall went through, and instead of explaining everything to all three children, they just threw extra attention on Randall. Bad parenting.

I was the white mother of a biracial son born in 1992.  I was hyper aware of anything racial. From filling out forms where I was expected to check the other box for my son (which I refused to do, I simply wrote in bi racial) to people asking me if his hair was naturally curly. Jack and Rebecca wanted to wear rose colored glasses and think everything was great and when confronted with something not great they never really dealt with the root issue. Which was Randall was looked at as being different from his family.  Jack and Rebecca didn't see him that way but most of the world did.  

[circumvent]

1 hour ago, cameron said:

Your right, but Randall had definite issues with Kevin growing up and made less than flattering statements to him.

True, but those issues are not the issue at hand in the episode and it is something that someone like Randall would be, maybe, exploring in his own therapy/growth. 

1 hour ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I have to disagree with you here on this.  We have seen Randall steamroll Beth over major issues before.  When we call Randall out on this it is not a diversion from the real problem.  Like I said before, this is learned behavior on his part.  For better or worse, Randall is Jack Pearson's son.  Randall grew up in a home where father knows best.  Jack consistently made unilateral decisions and Rebecca went along with it.  Randall absorbs this.  When Beth does try to stand up to Randall, he gets nasty just like Jack did.  Then Jack dies young, and Randall decides to become the "man of the house."  He has a codependent relationship with Rebecca that sees him bringing her on his dates with Beth.  Race and the transracial adoption do play roles in shaping adult Randall, but there is more going on.

Your answer made my point. What you are saying is true, and it is a deflection of what was happening between Randall and Kevin, so it is part of the micro aggressions - to defend a position, we deflect to a different issue and don't address the original one 

 

1 hour ago, smartymarty said:

why did he not speak up?

Maybe because he didn't feel empowered enough? Maybe because he didn't identify them as micro aggressions? People's growth are seldom linear. And in a weird way, even though black people are not responsible for education white people, that's exactly what Randall is doing. If Kevin accepts that, he is learning. If not, then it is just like we see in real life, to this day, after all the teaching and awareness raising.

[smartymarty]

2 minutes ago, circumvent said:

And in a weird way, even though black people are not responsible for education white people, that's exactly what Randall is doing. If Kevin accepts that, he is learning.

Of course Randall is not responsible for educating his siblings. But when one comes to you because you're upset with him, you kinda hafta tell him WHY you are mad at him. The Big Three is what, 40 years old now? Kevin was supposed to figure out what he did either last year, or 6 years ago, or when they were 6 years old, what it was he did that made Randall mad at him? I have no problem with what Randall eventualllllly revealed was bothering him -- my issue is that he did not do that until the last quarter of the episode. His sullenness and "I don't accept your apology; you have to guess what I'm mad about" was just infuriating.