S01.E01: New World Order

[festivus]

I think we were supposed to see the the subtle racism in the bank scene. Imagine if that was Steve sitting there with his sister. I'm sure an exception would be made. That's what I think we're going to see in this series, it's more that just Sam not feeling worthy to take on the mantle of Captain America which is going to be also tied up in the fact that Steve was his friend. It's also about bias and racism. I'm feeling like we got enough in this episode to know that they will go there.

As far as Bucky not going back to Wakanda; he doesn't feel like he deserves to. We haven't got much to go on before this series about how Bucky actually feels about the things that have happened to him. So, until I'm told different, I think Bucky stayed in Wakanda before because a) I do think he felt like a danger to people and how much trouble could he cause with the goats, and b) he was on the run for 2 years and how much of that did he spend actually dealing with his trauma? I think most of it was probably spent just discovering who he was. He's now made a choice to start dealing with it and that would not include going back to Wakanda. Where I think before he just took a moment to breathe but he wouldn't find any peace there now. 

 

@Crs97 looks like we posted at the same time with the same thought. Sorry, I didn't see yours, cause it takes me like 11 years to type out a post.

[Penman61]

Question: At this point in his story, is Bucky still "activatable," e.g., could someone read the list of words and take over his brain for a mission (as in Winter Soldier & Civil War)?

And a follow-up, if I may: Once so activated, how is he de-activated?

[Abra]

4 minutes ago, Penman61 said:

Question: At this point in his story, is Bucky still "activatable," e.g., could someone read the list of words and take over his brain for a mission (as in Winter Soldier & Civil War)?

And a follow-up, if I may: Once so activated, how is he de-activated?

No, The Winter Soldier can't be reactivated. Shuri (and her team, I'm guessing) figured out how to dismantle the triggers in Bucky's mind; it's why he agreed/asked to be put back into cryo at the end of Civil War.

I would assume that when he was activated, he was just given orders to go back to his handlers when he was done with whatever and they deactivated by just putting him back in cryo again. If he caused problems, they'd wipe him.

[festivus]

9 minutes ago, Penman61 said:

Question: At this point in his story, is Bucky still "activatable," e.g., could someone read the list of words and take over his brain for a mission (as in Winter Soldier & Civil War)?

There's a prelude comic to Infinity War that has Shuri removing the trigger from Bucky's head.

[Llywela]

6 hours ago, tv echo said:

It's been awhile since I watched Agent Carter, but didn't Peggy dump the last vial of Steve Rogers' blood in the river in 1946, in order to prevent anyone from using it to create new super serum?

Did the U.S. government/military or SHIELD/HYDRA extract more blood from Steve when he was revived in the present day?

IIRC, Steve was the only super soldier created in the 1940's because Dr. Erskine was killed. So any future super serum could only be created using Steve's blood. Unless they're now saying that someone else came up with the same formula.

Agents of SHIELD told us that there have been many attempts at re-creating the serum over the decades. No one, as far as we know, has ever managed to duplicate Dr Erskine's formula exactly, but some attempts have come closer than others. So there are a bunch of variants rattling around out there, but none of them are an exact match for Steve's super serum.

Edited March 21, 2021 by Llywela

[paigow]

21 hours ago, Dandesun said:

I would definitely say that part of the role of Not Cap 

• Faketain
• Capcon
• Feve Rogers
• Wirst Avenger

[swanpride]

Quote

They wouldn't have had to mindwipe him repeatedly and start all over if it was, and while that does add to the tragic aspect he was able to stop himself from killing Steve and even pull him out of the water when he could have just let him drown. Leaving Rogers behind on the bank doesn't erase that he regained just enough control of his mind and body to let him live, and Steve wasn't even conscious enough to say, "Please. Please don't kill me."

Steve was conscious long enough to

1. Willingly drop his shield
2. Telling Bucky that he would rather die than hurting him
3. Mentioning the "Till the end of the line" line, which along with the fact that Steve deliberately wore his old uniform could trigger a memory

You can bet that none of The Winter Soldiers other victims acted that way. Which naturally confused him. I don't think that Bucky had any chance to break out for any of his other victims. I mean, he didn't even hesitate to kill Howard.

Regarding the bank loan: Let's be realistic here, while the business struggled when half of the population was gone, there is no reason to think that it will continue to struggle now that the demand for fish is back up. And there is a freaking Avenger in front of you, ready to co-sign the loan. Nobody can tell me that if Steve or even Hawkeye had sat there, this wouldn't have warranted at least a call to the superior to discuss the notion one level up. And I am ready to bet that other businesses whose owners had a different skin colour had a slightly easier time to get their loan approved. Because that's how the system in the US works.

And regarding the serum: Yeah, Peggy dumped the blood, but there have been attempts to recreate the virus before (remember that's how the Hulk became a thing) and according the Agents of Shield, they had a somewhat success with The Patriot.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Mulva said:

I'm still trying to figure out why the banker was racist for not give a loan to someone who has no income, job or assets to prop up a business that hasn't turned a profit in five years.  Sure he was a dick for asking for a selfie after turning down the loan, but I'm not seeing racism.  Wasn't banks giving loans to people with no income, jobs or assets the main reason for the 2008 economic collapse?

Sam does have an income and a job. As with most real life racism, it’s more about microaggressions and systemic issues. Things like the banker recognizing Sam and asking if he played football. Also they way he kept cutting off Sam when he tried to focus on the business plan. The way he was confrontational over Sam’s lack of income as though he somehow wasn’t aware of the blip. There was an overall level of disrespect. It all combined to leave the impression the experience, if not the result, would have been different if Sam wasn’t black. 

2 hours ago, Crs97 said:

Again, I still say this part rings false.  You don’t let him keep his billion dollar tech suit without paying him.  

They are paying Sam. He specifically says that he has government contracts which is proof of earnings. The banker only cared about past job history. 

Edited March 21, 2021 by Guest

[kirinan]

6 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

Bucky's story in the Captain America comics is one of the best comic book stories of the 21st century, in my opinion. Ed Brubaker did an incredible job of reinventing the character and giving him this huge arc from tragedy to triumph then back again, more than once over.

His guilt and self-doubt and the sense of a debt owed to... everyone, is always palpable and it takes him a long time to trust anyone, especially himself. And he did all of his recovering without Steve in the comics too, due to various circumstances. His rocks were Sam and, to a greater extent, Natasha and they both helped him immeasurably, building up his confidence to the point that he actually believed he could be good enough to carry Steve's legacy as Captain America.

I've seen his closeness with Natasha mentioned a couple times in this thread. I know this is slightly off-topic, but just curious: Is this part of Bucky's storyline in the comics, or is it fanfic? We saw nothing about it in the MCU, right? (Unless my old brain has lost the brain cells that would remember this. And don't worry about an explanation; I'm just curious about the source.)

And now, to bring it back on topic:

7 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

I get that Bucky feels responsible, but I'm waiting for someone... anyone... to really tell Bucky that nothing that happened was ultimately his fault.

I'm really wondering if Mr. Yori will be the one to give Bucky the forgiveness he needs. Mr. Yori is such a perfect vehicle for that moment. I know it could easily go either way, but after all the grief of WandaVision, I hope they'll allow poor Bucky (there I go again) just one break. 

[paigow]

If Bucky went to the bank as a "Lt. Dan" first mate / partner, that loan would be approved...

5 hours ago, kirinan said:

I've seen his closeness with Natasha mentioned a couple times in this thread. I know this is slightly off-topic, but just curious: Is this part of Bucky's storyline in the comics, or is it fanfic? We saw nothing about it in the MCU, right? 

In the movies, they are only close in their mutual hatred. As the Winter Soldier, he even sent his minions after Cap while he chased her down. Of course, Natasha wants revenge for getting shot during the Iranian rescue job.

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, kirinan said:

I've seen his closeness with Natasha mentioned a couple times in this thread. I know this is slightly off-topic, but just curious: Is this part of Bucky's storyline in the comics, or is it fanfic?

It’s from the comics. Comic Natasha ages very slowly and has known Bucky for decades. 

[swanpride]

I don't think that MCU Natasha hates Bucky. She always supported Cap regarding Bucky. And if there is anyone who understands the guilt of working for an evil organisation without having any real choice, it's her.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

1 hour ago, swanpride said:

Steve was conscious long enough to

1. Willingly drop his shield
2. Telling Bucky that he would rather die than hurting him
3. Mentioning the "Till the end of the line" line, which along with the fact that Steve deliberately wore his old uniform could trigger a memory

You can bet that none of The Winter Soldiers other victims acted that way. Which naturally confused him. I don't think that Bucky had any chance to break out for any of his other victims. I mean, he didn't even hesitate to kill Howard.

So.....what are we saying here? That given a very specific set of circumstances where Bucky was able to break free of such rigorous conditioning, that makes those other deaths okay? Of course none of the Winter Soldier's other victims acted that way. Why would they? Most people don't have a death wish, unlike Steve. Fact is, Barnes could have just walked away and let Rogers sink to the bottom of the Potomac for a dive team to find later. "Oh, you want to die so much? Fine." He didn't, so he remembered enough of his friend to know that, as himself, he would not really want him dead. And I've specifically been told that Howard doesn't count, that even though he recognized Bucky as 'Sergeant Barnes' they'd only met once or maybe twice before he fell from the train. Hell, Howard's the one who flew Steve two hundred miles behind enemy lines so he could rescue Bucky the first time, but I don't think they ever actually knew each other.

And this is why this discussion is so annoying, but I get pulled in almost every time.

"Mind control!"

"Except he stopped himself from killing Steve."

"But Steve did X and Y and Z, so of course he stopped."

I'm a lot more sympathetic to Bucky than it sounds like I am. What happened to him was/is terrible, but this doesn't really answer my question about if he should just say, Well, that wasn't me, so I shouldn't have to take responsibility for it. Or maybe it does. I don't know how that would be an improvement, though.

[Crs97]

1 hour ago, swanpride said:

Steve was conscious long enough to

1. Willingly drop his shield
2. Telling Bucky that he would rather die than hurting him
3. Mentioning the "Till the end of the line" line, which along with the fact that Steve deliberately wore his old uniform could trigger a memory

You can bet that none of The Winter Soldiers other victims acted that way. Which naturally confused him. I don't think that Bucky had any chance to break out for any of his other victims. I mean, he didn't even hesitate to kill Howard.

Howard talked to him as a friend, and Mrs. Stark was quiet as he strangled her to death.  Not everyone he killed was combative, and others said things that had the potential to break through his brainwashing.  I am not surprised he still feels guilty, even though others may tell him he isn’t at fault.  I don’t know how he trusts anyone not to manipulate him and trusts himself out in the world again.

[Starry-Eyed]

18 hours ago, MisterGlass said:

I initially thought that Yori was supposed to be the elderly version of the Howling Commando Jim Morita.

Yeah, me too. Even after I realized he was the father of Bucky's victim, I just thought that mean that Bucky had killed the son of his old war buddy, which seemed extra, extra awful

[silverstream]

9 minutes ago, Starry-Eyed said:

Yeah, me too. Even after I realized he was the father of Bucky's victim, I just thought that mean that Bucky had killed the son of his old war buddy, which seemed extra, extra awful

Me three, lol - which actually made me less sympathetic towards Bucky than I could have been until I realised that it wasn't true because the perceived tragedy-overkill took me out of the story.

[bethy]

I keep thinking about this exchange with Steve in Civil War: 

Bucky Barnes : What's gonna happen to your friends?

Captain America : Whatever it is... I'll deal with it.

Bucky Barnes : I don't know if I'm worth all this.

Captain America : What you did all those years, it wasn't you. You didn't have a choice.

Bucky Barnes : I know... but I did it.

Even with Steve offering some sort of absolution, Bucky feels responsible. And like he told Tony - he remembers all of what he did. I think maybe the time in Wakanda gave him the chance to take a breath - as others have said - and get somewhat steady such that he can start to face and deal with what happened to him. I think for Bucky, dealing with what happened to him will also involve him facing the consequences of his missions. Even though he didn’t have a choice, to him, because he was the one who caused others pain, he needs to confront those consequences. If that makes any sense at all. 🙂

[swanpride]

Quote

So.....what are we saying here? That given a very specific set of circumstances where Bucky was able to break free of such rigorous conditioning, that makes those other deaths okay?

We are saying that it is unrealistic to think that Bucky had a chance to snap out of his conditioning that easily. That would be victim blaming. Yes, Bucky feels guilty, and it is normal to have that feeling, but he is not responsible for the people who died, the people who send him in are. Bucky is just another victim in the scenario. That he managed to do it for Steve was because of a very specific set of circumstances.

[Chicago Redshirt]

7 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

How exactly would he prove he was under mind control? 

Witnesses and evidence that Bucky could use to prove he had been under mind control:

Steve (presumably) has attested to Bucky having been under mind control at various times and in various places. Presumably at least some of that could be entered into evidence.

Natasha likewise. Presumably when she released all of SHIELD and Hydra's secrets at the end of CA: TWS, part of that massive archive included exactly what was done with Bucky.

Zemo, when last we saw him, was in custody. Either directly through a confession or through the evidence uncovered in Civil War and available in its aftermath, it would be presumably fairly easy to establish what exactly Zemo did to control Bucky.

The Siberian base, as someone mentioned before, would have other concrete evidence of what was done to Bucky and to Winter Soldiers in general. 

The defense for certain would be able to call Shuri and/or T'Challa to testify how they learned about Bucky's conditioning and what was done to remove it.

4 hours ago, Mulva said:

I'm still trying to figure out why the banker was racist for not give a loan to someone who has no income, job or assets to prop up a business that hasn't turned a profit in five years.  Sure he was a dick for asking for a selfie after turning down the loan, but I'm not seeing racism.  Wasn't banks giving loans to people with no income, jobs or assets the main reason for the 2008 economic collapse?

The question I would put to you is: is it reasonable to think that Sam was being treated differently than a similarly situated white person? 

For me, the answer is pretty clearly at a minimum he is being treated in ways that are fairly common that black people might experience.

"Did you use to play football?" is a fairly common question that will get asked to black men, playing into the stereotype of us as jocks.

The asking for a selfie after turning down the loan is a dickish thing that I just don't see likely to have been done to a famous White applicant.

Indeed, the situation is not that Sam "has no income, job or assets." We literally just saw him doing a job as a contractor for the U.S. government. He presumably owns the Falcon gear, although he would be foolish to put that up as collateral. Presumably, the fishing boat itself should serve as sufficient collateral. 

But let's say for argument's sake that it was objectively true that Sam and his sister represented a large risk for the bank.

The unwillingness to explore other options (and presumably there are some) and the  unwillingness/inability to express the rejection better were also problematic.

Does that mean that the banker after rejecting Sam and Sis was goosestepping around the office or burning a cross in victory? No. But the thing is that racism can take various  forms. It could be that the banker was operating on implicit bias that has been formed after decades of exposure to various stimuli. It could be that the banker was sympathetic to Sam and Sis, thought of them as full human beings and yet felt bound by the bank's rules, which could be a form of systemic racism.

As to the real life economic collapse in 2008, it was far less about banks allowing underqualified people to obtain loans (pretty sure that they close to never gave money to people who had no income, jobs or assets-- again in a worst-case scenario the bank would be able to foreclose on the home) and far more about financial institutions engaging in various forms of shenanigans that eventually they could not cover.

 

[swanpride]

There is a long list of what the banker die "wrong"...for one the football assumption. Than the dickish "you didn't have income for five years" thing (which should be pretty irrelevant for someone who had an income beforehand AND already has an income now). Then the way he asked about if Avengers get some sort of salaries. And finally his refusal to even look at the options available. All that for a family who was customer of the bank for a long time.

[arc]

8 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Hydra is gone

The ramifications never felt fully fleshed out in the movies (I wasn’t following AoS by then) but the whole conclusion of Winter Soldier (the movie) is that Natasha & co successfully revealed all of Hydra and Shield’s secrets to the world. Presumably this includes everything done to Bucky, though even as I write this I guess that would have undercut the conflicts in Civil War.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

34 minutes ago, swanpride said:

We are saying that it is unrealistic to think that Bucky had a chance to snap out of his conditioning that easily. That would be victim blaming. Yes, Bucky feels guilty, and it is normal to have that feeling, but he is not responsible for the people who died, the people who send him in are. Bucky is just another victim in the scenario. That he managed to do it for Steve was because of a very specific set of circumstances.

I don't disagree that Bucky is a victim. But you added that he didn't hesitate to kill Howard even though he knew him, no matter how casually. Howard actually said, "Sergeant Barnes?" before he got his head bashed in, so he knew who he was looking at before he was killed. If it didn't register at the time, fine, but that seems not in line with what Bucky tells Tony in Siberia during their fight: "Do you even remember them?" "I remember all of them." Why is it normal to have guilt for something you're not responsible for if you're not some kind of masochist?

 

24 minutes ago, swanpride said:

There is a long list of what the banker die "wrong"...for one the football assumption. Than the dickish "you didn't have income for five years" thing (which should be pretty irrelevant for someone who had an income beforehand AND already has an income now). Then the way he asked about if Avengers get some sort of salaries. And finally his refusal to even look at the options available. All that for a family who was customer of the bank for a long time.

As a note, there was some question about how Vision got the money to buy a plot of land in Westview so that he and Wanda could build a house there and live in it together. He was a synthezoid, albeit an almost entirely human one, so within the confines of the law it would be IMO very difficult to get him recognized as a person, enough so that he could have assets and legal rights to own property. I'm pretty sure that Tony was bankrolling everything when he was alive (the compound, tech, training facilities, etc) but I don't believe it was ever established if the Avengers had salaries. Sam and Steve had apartments during Winter Soldier, but I think Natasha was living in the compound. Clint of course had his own place. The others (Rhodey, Thor, Bruce) must have been living elsewhere, at least until everything went to hell and the Avengers broke up. If they were being paid, wouldn't it already have been mentioned? Someone upthread said that Sam would be heavily criticized if he started doing endorsements or whatnot to earn money, so this seems along those lines. One of the things the MCU has never really covered is Real World stuff like, How do Our Heroes pay their bills? I can't imagine they wouldn't be making some kind of salary, but I don't know what the reaction would be if they were.

[johntfs]

7 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

I don't disagree that Bucky is a victim. But you added that he didn't hesitate to kill Howard even though he knew him, no matter how casually. Howard actually said, "Sergeant Barnes?" before he got his head bashed in, so he knew who he was looking at before he was killed. If it didn't register at the time, fine, but that seems not in line with what Bucky tells Tony in Siberia during their fight: "Do you even remember them?" "I remember all of them." Why is it normal to have guilt for something you're not responsible for if you're not some kind of masochist?

Because you're a fully functional human being and not a psychopath?  Example scenario:  You're driving down the street at the speed limit like a good driver.  The light ahead at an intersection is green.  It stays green so you proceed and then some idiot blows through the intersection and you T-bone his car.  Nobody inside is wearing seat belts and his airbags don't work.  The driver is paralyzed.  His older child breaks his neck.  His infant catapults out of the car and smashes into a street lamp, also dying.

So, paralyzed driver and two dead children.  And it's totally the driver's fault.  You did everything right by the law.  Are you going to tell me you'll feel no guilt whatsoever?  That you aren't going to be seeing dead baby brains in your dreams?  Because I call BS on that.  Unless you're a psychopath.

[Guest]

21 hours ago, MisterGlass said:

I initially thought that Yori was supposed to be the elderly version of the Howling Commando Jim Morita.

That reminds me that I’d love to see the show bring in Jim Morita’s grandson who is played by the same actor. I was a little sad he wasn’t in Far From Home. 

1 hour ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

I don't disagree that Bucky is a victim. But you added that he didn't hesitate to kill Howard even though he knew him, no matter how casually. Howard actually said, "Sergeant Barnes?" before he got his head bashed in, so he knew who he was looking at before he was killed. If it didn't register at the time, fine, but that seems not in line with what Bucky tells Tony in Siberia during their fight: "Do you even remember them?" "I remember all of them."

How is that not in line? Bucky in Winter Soldier mode isn’t in control but that doesn’t mean he isn’t aware of what happened. He heard the words but they didn’t mean anything at the time because of the programming. 

The horror and guilt associated with being a spectator in your own body is a common plot.

1 hour ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Why is it normal to have guilt for something you're not responsible for if you're not some kind of masochist?

Because he still did those things even if he didn’t have control. He still has to live with the memories and horror. 

1 hour ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

He was a synthezoid, albeit an almost entirely human one, so within the confines of the law it would be IMO very difficult to get him recognized as a person, enough so that he could have assets and legal rights to own property.

It is cannon that he is recognized as a person. He signed the Sokovia Accords which wouldn’t have been necessary if he was considered property. 

1 hour ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

I'm pretty sure that Tony was bankrolling everything when he was alive (the compound, tech, training facilities, etc) but I don't believe it was ever established if the Avengers had salaries. Sam and Steve had apartments during Winter Soldier, but I think Natasha was living in the compound. Clint of course had his own place. The others (Rhodey, Thor, Bruce) must have been living elsewhere, at least until everything went to hell and the Avengers broke up. If they were being paid, wouldn't it already have been mentioned?

Based on what Sam said, it sounds like a situation where the Avengers had benefactors (mostly Tony) who covered expenses so they didn’t need a salary. Everything was taken care of but they weren’t given a traditional paycheck to be Avengers. 

Edited March 21, 2021 by Guest

[paigow]

Sam was likely collecting some kind of Air Force pension when he first met Steve. His sister likely collected the survivor payout. Although Stark should have topped it up.

[Hana Chan]

12 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

But you added that he didn't hesitate to kill Howard even though he knew him, no matter how casually. Howard actually said, "Sergeant Barnes?" before he got his head bashed in, so he knew who he was looking at before he was killed.

Howard definitely recognized Bucky, but there was no way that Bucky knew who Howard was at the time because he'd just had a few thousand volts of electricity channeled through his brain to burn out whatever independent thought and motivation that might have crept in. There was a reason that HYDRA kept Bucky on ice so much of the time - to keep him under control. If he was frozen, his brain wasn't healing and we saw in CATWS that the longer he was out of cryosleep, the greater the chance of him slipping his leash. One of the reasons we got that mid-mission electroconvulsive treatment after Bucky's battle with Steve, Sam and Natasha was because Bucky's memories of Steve were starting to emerge. So he got his brain fried before being sent to kill them, just as they did before being sent out to kill Howard Stark. And even when Howard recognized him, Bucky didn't respond at all except to carry out his mission. Howard might have recognized Bucky, but Howard was nothing more than the Asset's mission. It was shocking to see Bucky kill the Starks so ruthlessly, but that showed just how effective HYDRA's control over Bucky had become - to be able to send him against someone that he knew and have him kill them without even a trace of recognition.

[Hana Chan]

1 hour ago, Dani said:

The horror and guilt associated with being a spectator in your own body is a common plot.

And that's probably the greatest element of Bucky's tragic story. The fact that he remembers so much and had absolutely zero control in order to prevent it from happening in the first place. And that he feels that it's his personal responsibility to atone for what HYDRA forced him to do after decades of torture. That Bucky is sane at all is nothing short of a miracle. 

[Crs97]

56 minutes ago, paigow said:

Although Stark should have topped it up.

How long will he have to be dead before he stops getting blamed for everything?

[Starry-Eyed]

1 minute ago, Crs97 said:

How long will he have to be dead before he stops getting blamed for everything?

The blame is just gonna shift to Pepper lol

[Chicago Redshirt]

7 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

I don't disagree that Bucky is a victim. But you added that he didn't hesitate to kill Howard even though he knew him, no matter how casually. Howard actually said, "Sergeant Barnes?" before he got his head bashed in, so he knew who he was looking at before he was killed. If it didn't register at the time, fine, but that seems not in line with what Bucky tells Tony in Siberia during their fight: "Do you even remember them?" "I remember all of them." Why is it normal to have guilt for something you're not responsible for if you're not some kind of masochist?

Guilt is -- like most emotions -- not entirely rational. Even though Bucky could not do anything to meaningfully resist the compulsion, he no doubt feels 

A. He should have just died in the first place, and then he wouldn't able to be captured, brainwashed and to have killed so many people

B. He should have been stronger and thus been able to resist the initial brainwashing indefinitely

C. He should have been able to break free of the brainwashing at some point

D. The fact that he was so good at killing people makes him a monster.

Even though none of these things are really true, guilt still is going to exist.

7 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

I'm pretty sure that Tony was bankrolling everything when he was alive (the compound, tech, training facilities, etc) but I don't believe it was ever established if the Avengers had salaries. Sam and Steve had apartments during Winter Soldier, but I think Natasha was living in the compound. Clint of course had his own place. The others (Rhodey, Thor, Bruce) must have been living elsewhere, at least until everything went to hell and the Avengers broke up. If they were being paid, wouldn't it already have been mentioned? Someone upthread said that Sam would be heavily criticized if he started doing endorsements or whatnot to earn money, so this seems along those lines. One of the things the MCU has never really covered is Real World stuff like, How do Our Heroes pay their bills? I can't imagine they wouldn't be making some kind of salary, but I don't know what the reaction would be if they were.

We have to accept that Sam was telling the truth and that he (at least) didn't receive an ongoing salary or stipend from being an Avenger. It seems clear that Tony would let the Avengers who wanted to live at the Avengers compound upstate. He also clearly dumped some amount of money on Peter Parker (one of the few incarnations of the character that doesn't express concerns about finances).

Some of the Avengers have long had other occupations that should have resulted in them having reasonable amounts of money. Clint and Natasha are super-spies for years and undoubtedly had access to off-the-books money in addition to their SHIELD salaries. Rhodey is an Air Force colonel still, and in the real world, that translates to an annual salary of $80-$130k according to the Internet. When he has a specialized role as liaison to Tony Stark, one would think that he would have more. (Not to mention, one would think that Tony would have left him a little something something in his will. ) Bruce had been on the run for years, but now things have settled down. If he has managed to dodge liability for all the property he destroyed as the Hulk, he probably has a pretty good shot at being rich now that he's Professor Hulk. Presumably he holds a shit-ton of patents and in this stage has become some sort of celebrity, which probably translates to money.

In the comics, at least at one point in the continuity, Tony set up a foundation for the Avengers that paid living expenses and let them reside at Avengers Mansion downtown.

Edited March 22, 2021 by Chicago Redshirt

[Chicago Redshirt]

13 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

How long will he have to be dead before he stops getting blamed for everything?

I don't think this was blaming Stark for anything. I think the poster was saying that Stark should have added more money on top of the Air Force pension.

Which a) he in fact may have and b) I don't see what good argument there might be for our favorite billionaire genius  playboy philanthropist to not cut a check to help out the relatives of his fallen colleagues. Like, I don't know if it was established if Aunt May was snapped, but Tony would absolutely have given her a mil or two straight away and whatever else she needed. Granted, Tony's relationship with Peter was a mentorship, and Tony may still be sore about Rhodey getting disabled indirectly because of Sam. (Which reminds me, they probably should have a conversation about that, and also about their mutually being part of the Air Force). But it would be relatively easy morally, financially and otherwise for Tony to give financial support to the survivors of Avengers who were snapped in the line of duty and whose families could use the support. So no need to give to T'Challa's family, because the royal fam of Wakanda is probably way richer than Tony. Really, as I think about it, it's mainly Sam and Peter who fell and have relatives (that we now know of) who need support. I think it goes without saying that Tony supported Rhodey's family if he has one.

[VCRTracking]

 

 

[formerlyfreedom]

A couple of reminders;

• Please do not discuss WandaVision in here, as some posters may not have viewed it at this point in time
• This is not the topic to discuss speculation based on comics - no posts have been removed, but may be going forward. This is the spot to speculate based on the comics.
• And finally, spoilers for upcoming properties will get your post removed and may get you warned.

Please review the pinned Notes from the Mod topic if you have not yet done so. And as always, PM me with any questions. Thank you.

[shoetingstar]

On 3/20/2021 at 11:56 AM, kirinan said:

I love this thread because I no longer feel alone in my "poor Bucky"-isms. Ever since my husband and I saw The Winter Soldier, we've referred to it as "Poor Bucky" because that's what I kept saying through the whole thing—a practice that started when Steve found him again in The First Avenger and has kept up in every Bucky appearance since. I always want to give him a big hug.

We both enjoyed this first episode, but in different ways. I love the deeper exploration of Bucky and Sam's characters. My husband, who's been a diehard Silver Age comic fanboy for decades (he's old, like me), thought the episode was a bit slow but he still enjoyed it. Unlike me, he knew nothing about what to expect when he went in so when he said, "That has to be Batroc" the second he heard the French accent I knew he was hooked. He likes the callbacks to the stories he remembers, so I think he'll keep watching (and he wasn't interested in watching WandaVision at all). I'm embarrassingly easy when it comes to the MCU, especially anything even tangentially related to Cap, so I knew I was in it for the duration the second I heard this was coming out. But I am impatiently waiting for Sam and Bucky to meet.

Same way I feel. WHY doesn't anyone try some serious HUG therapy for these broken men? Call it Bone Hugs in Harmony (I couldn't resist!). Bucky and I would include Loki, maybe lol. (Though Loki wasn't brainwashed but savagely misguided, to say the least. But I still love him. *le sigh*).

On 3/20/2021 at 6:30 AM, swanpride said:

Wait, you never read "This, you protect"? First part of the "infinity Coffee and protection detail" series? Oh, you are missing out!!!! I mean, this is one of the biggest fics of the MCU fandom in general, translated into multiple languages and with a lot of fanfics by other writers attached to it.

Btw, my remark about all the psychiatrist offices in TV looking like the one from Monk nowadays was a somewhat serious question...is that Monk influence or do this offices really look that way in the US? You know, aggressively calming (it's really the best way to describe it).

 

I don't think that the shield is replaceable, unless they take the pieces from the one which was destroyed by Thanos and rebuilt it somehow….It's not just about the vibranium, it's about the fact that Cap used it.

 

Okay, well I have to seek this out. Is this on A03 (tumblr? dare I say fanfiction.com? I'm probably older than you lol). I confess, I had a period where I didn't read other fanfics until I finished what I was working on. Not sure what happened, but you make me want to read it now!

On 3/20/2021 at 9:32 AM, Abra said:

Getting flowers on a first date is not old-fashioned! 😞 Damn.

omg I liked her until she said that. And then the whole "you sound like my Dad" thing. I think the writers were trying too hard to make her the "tough, sarcastic cool-chick" or whatever. Now, if it was character trying too hard - she may not be all she seems and knows more than she's letting on?

Edited March 22, 2021 by shoetingstar

[swanpride]

Regarding Sam's Avenger Salary (or lack of it): Small reminder, Sam only joined the Avengers in 2015 after Age of Ultron (meaning after Tony had already left), and then joined the rogues in 2016. So he was a regular Avenger for barely a year and while Rhodey knows him due to having part of the main roster the same time he was, Tony certainly doesn't, not really. He only knows him as the guy Cap hangs out with.

So even if Stark paid some sort of regular salary, Sam would have only gotten it for a year or so, and for the next two years he would have been forced to "rely on contributions" since he was on the run with Cap. And yes, Tony most likely looked for May (who was snapped too, btw), and certainly for whoever Rhodey left behind (if there is someone) but I am not sure if looking for Sam's relatives would even cross his mind.

[Butless]

Sam's story was boring. It makes it hard to believe that he has no money when he's risking his life, as seen in the first 5mins, ...and he doesnt get compensated highly for it? Strains credulity.  He's only one of a very few people on Earth who can be called a 'superhero,' so that is a laugh.

So basically he's just torturing his sister, and insisting she waste her life on the family struggle business. They could have come up with a better story. Maybe if they didn't tailor it to Anthony Mackie's home state?

And while I understood the sister's plight, her attitude and arguments were annoying. 'While you were out there saving the World...'  Come on; they could written something better than that, couldn't they? How trite and it just makes her look like an ass.  Yes; while he was out there saving the world.  So that you and your cute kids could still be alive or not made into the slaves of some alien overlord. Kinda important stuff, sis.

Bucky's story could have been better, too. They chose to start it with the mean therapist trope, which is just so overused. I get that comic books are a bunch of tropes roped together, but as a tv viewer, who has to pay to watch it,  they could have done better, gotten better writers, who bothered to write something other than tropes, who actually made it compelling.

The Winter Soldier scene was the highlight of the episode. I did think of John Wick when he was holding the gun to his forearm to shoot. This bit of excitement  was much better than the opening, with Falcon fighting MMA fighters on a plane (someone keeps hiring that french guy under the mistaken premise that he has any charisma); even if it was a retread.

Something new from that scene though, gave an insight into the WS. Namely that he was a mean SOB. He took his time to kill the innocent bystander. There was no recognition in his eyes that this was an innocent bystander; no conflict of emotions, so not taking him out, immediately, like a trained assassin would, only points to his sadism. We keep getting told the WS was a mindless 'tool of Hydra;' and if that were so, he would have been professional and just took the guy out and ran. But he walked over, slowly, held up the gun and watched this man squirm until he shot him.  Sadism. I don't begrudge him his grumpiness, being abused by Hydra for decades. But he was just being a dick to that poor man.

That scene tempered my feelings for him. That, and also that he was lying to his therapist about following the rule not to hurt anyone. Yes; it's a stupid rule  for an action show.  But it's a slippery slope for someone who is known as a brutal assassin (for decades), from hurting people to murdering them. So no; I don't feel any heartbreak for Bucky. Also, he is strutting around in a leather jacket and expensive haircut, yet he still has little old man, Yori, pay for his lunches; if the dialogue is to be believed (Bucky says, 'What if I pay for it, this time?').  Just silly writing.

I did love that in the bar scene, it looked like the actor playing Yori flubbed his line (mispronounced pinochle) and then giggled about it, after he corrected the pronunciation, and they kept it in. That was cute.

I was less enthused with Bucky's date. The actor playing Bucky looks his age (38), actually even older.  But he's lusting after someone 10 years younger (who looks younger than her age)?  Ok, I thought we were moving away from these kinds of gross portrayals, as if  there could be no attractive women his age that could also have worked at a sushi restaurant that he frequented?

Everything about that date was weird.  Bucky had so many red flags... in the real world, this is how you get murdered. By locking yourself in a small room with a stranger who: lied about his age (only we and he knows he didn't); always wears gloves -like a strangler;  has a smile that looks like he's being stabbed and a penetrating stare; and claims to have "poor circulation" (screams erectile dysfunction). She should count herself lucky he just (rudely) split on her.

She should not come back, but I bet she does somehow, as part of his redemption arc; possibly along with Yori. I don't even understand wtf Bucky is doing befriending the father of one of his victims. There is no restitution that can be made for taking a life. It also is cruel to tell the old man that his son was murdered, so I hope there's no going there.  Bucky's got a list of these victims, so is his plan just to befriend all of their next of kin? That's creepy, voyeuristic and invasive. Boundaries, Bucky; observe them.  That should be his Rule #4.

Overall I liked it, and hope that the action picks up when Sam and Bucky get together, hopefully in episode #2.  Since this show is shortened to only 6 episodes, I wish they had left out a third protagonist (Sharon). I find her so boring. I don't want to sit through filler on her boring story, too.

Sam seeing the fake Captain was a gut-punch. I can't wait to see how he handles this.  AM is a good actor, and he brings it.  SS is also a good actor, but it seems like it he is not bringing it, so far. Somehow I don't see Bucky going from emotionally shut down for 70 years, to over-emoting and pulling faces, like he does. He seems more like Bucky when he tells the waitress not to read his mind. He brought the gravitas to that line, and it was sort of chilling.

I hope the Flag Smashers ramp it up next Friday, and we get this show on the road, literally.

Edited March 22, 2021 by Butless

[swanpride]

Quote

Okay, well I have to seek this out. Is this on A03

AO3. It's an older series, which might explain why you missed it. But it is easily one of the "big" Bucky fics.

[Butless]

19 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

 

 

I hope every time he remembers this, that he thinks it was just a hallucination.

15 hours ago, shoetingstar said:

omg I liked her until she said that. And then the whole "you sound like my Dad" thing. I think the writers were trying too hard to make her the "tough, sarcastic cool-chick" or whatever.

I must have missed her saying ' you sound like my dad,' but you just reminded me how annoying this character really was.  No; it's not 'old fashioned' to bring flowers. She was just rude, and that was insulting, not cute. Bratty, sassy, sarcastic, whatever you're calling it, in the words of Rocket, "it's not cool (you little gargoyle)." She goes from negging him, into emo talk about dead kids. I don't blame him for walking out.

 

Edited March 22, 2021 by Butless

[paigow]

2 hours ago, Butless said:

Ok, I thought we were moving away from these kinds of gross portrayals, as if  there could be no attractive women his age that could also have worked at a sushi restaurant that he frequented?

The older women could be "attached", then he would be a "wrecking ball" / "cad"

[RollTheHardSix]

Overall, it was a nice set-up episode for me.

Bartender girl - I didn't mind her so much. Thinking about it now, I would think the flowers were a bit much. I would've considered that a super-casual date at her workplace which was jokingly set up by someone else - no need for flowers. But hey, it always kinda depends on who brings them, theoretically it's a nice gesture but very unusual. I've never even heard of the games he/the old guy were proposing, so I was guessing that they were old-people-games. To be honest, I didn't really even think about the age gap between them, it didn't seem gross to me - visually. However, I have difficulties guessing people's ages unless it's totally obvious - which it wasn't to me here.

I wasn't feeling Sam's sister much and didn't like the vibes during the bank scene, so that whole situation felt uncomfortable for me. If they were aiming for that (which I can see why they would), then it worked on me. Bank guy was unprofessional bordering on rude in a weird way which would make me angry and at the same time wonder if I am being oversensitive. Were they going for that? The 5 years "job history" would have made anyone mad though. He was dead, come on... f* you. Perhaps this whole setup is also clouding my opinion of the sister.

Because: on the other hand, I thought it was totally understandable if the sister wants to sell the boat and move on. I can't imagine that being a high-income profession either way. I can also understand if she doesn't want handouts from her brother. She made it work for 5 years, she doesn't want him to barge in and take over.

Bucky's guilt - understandable I think. He was brainwashed, but some people make him out to basically be totally non-functioning when he was the Winter Soldier. You can't be operational if you cannot tie your own shoelaces. He's also needed to adapt to situations and make mission-critical decisions so he must have been processing things like thoughts / speech / interactions. 

I also agree with the person above who wrote that his handling of the witness was sadistic - he did take his time and seemed to be savouring it.

I'm looking forward to seeing where this goes. I wasn't anticipating the crapsack world vibes we are getting here - I should have but WandaVision did not prepare me for this (WV was great though - I loved it from the first episode which I went into totally unspoiled and not knowing what to expect - that was a ride).

Edited March 22, 2021 by RollTheHardSix

[swanpride]

Regarding the flowers: Bringing them to a first date is not only old fashioned, it isn't necessarily considered a nice gesture anymore. Might be different in the US, but from the perspective of a German women, "first dates" are usual very casual affairs, where both participants pay for themselves, and nothing is expected. Bringing flowers to such an occasion put pressure on the women that she has to do something in return. Hence flowers are cute if you already know each other longer (like: We have our first months anniversary or something like that) or a special occasion, or as a casual present when you are already meeting each other for a while in a "I just thought you might like them" way, but they are usually not a feature of the first date for the above mentioned reason (unless it is a "he takes her out to dinner affair" that would be different, but that's not what was shown in the show, where it was clearly a more casual date). But again, German perspective, I know that dating in the US works very different with all kind of (from a foreigner's perspective) weird rules.

I am completely on the side of the sister. It is kind of egoistic of Sam to expect that she continues to "preserve the family legacy" when he did diddly squat to preserve it even before he blipped away. Maybe she had other dreams in live than being bound to said business, but never got the opportunities he had to do something else.

I don't think that Bucky was savouring anything, quite the opposite, the pause was most likely the result of Bucky trying to break through the Winter Soldier.

 

 

[bethy]

In hindsight I think the pause before killing the witness was for the audience. I was trying to figure out where we were time-wise during that scene until Bucky pulled the trigger and woke up. Like, was this a new mission he was working for the government except he was wearing the mask? There was tension for me when Bucky seemed to hesitate, knowing that present-Bucky wouldn’t shoot, but recognizing that WS-Buck likely would.

[RollTheHardSix]

23 minutes ago, swanpride said:

I don't think that Bucky was savouring anything, quite the opposite, the pause was most likely the result of Bucky trying to break through the Winter Soldier.

I guess this depends on interpretation, we're just speculating here after all. 

But even if I did get sadistic vibes there, I don't think that's the "true" Bucky or that he ever had real agency during his time with Hydra. He feels responsible but there is no doubt that they totally messed with his mind (and body). 

Even if we were to say that he was simply too weak to push through the conditioning - that's not a crime under the circumstances (and not a fair assessment in my book). He would not have done any of it at all if he had been in his right mind.

But it's one thing for a viewer/friend (Steve) to say that and another for a victim's family.

I also wonder if Bucky is receiving money from someone - and agree with the sentiment that he's not someone the government would want to go freelance because he needs money...

[tv echo]

I think that Leah's dialogue was written to highlight how out of time Bucky is in today's world and how out of sync he is with current dating norms, regardless of how bad it made Leah look as a person.

I didn't notice the age gap between Bucky and Leah. He's 30-something and she appears to be 20-something, but that's typical Hollywood casting (I mean, look at 32-year-old Elizabeth Olsen and 49-year-old Paul Bettany in WandaVision). It's also not the 20-year age gap that we often see in movies starring Tom Cruise or Liam Neeson nowadays. Also, Bucky is a 30-something from the 1940's. Moreover, the date was arranged by Yori.*

(* Incidentally, Yori is identified as Yori Nakajima by Marvel Cinematic Universe Wiki. Also, iirc, he was called "Mr. Nakajima" in this episode at one point.)

It's unlikely that Howard Stark and Bucky were friends in the 1940s. At most, they were work acquaintances. The reason Steve got through to Bucky to some degree is because of their emotional connection and long history. They grew up together. They lived together for a time and fought together side by side. They were BFFs. Also, before Steve fell off the helicarrier. unconscious, he repeatedly talked to Bucky to try to get through to him. The key line was when Steve told Bucky that he'd be with him "'til the end of the line," which is what Bucky had said to Steve after the funeral of Steve's mother (decades earlier). I think that line triggered something in Bucky that, even if he didn't remember exactly everything, made him not want Steve to die.

Regarding the bank scene, I think that the writers didn't want to show overt racism at this point. I think that sometimes racism can be subtle so that there's plausible deniability and gaslighting. You see real life examples all the time ("no, I'm not racist, I attacked/killed those people because of [fill in the blank]"). At this point, I think the writers made it deliberately unclear whether the bank employee's primary motivation was due to strictly following bank lending rules or racism. I suspect that the racism element with regard to who should wield the Captain America shield will become clearer in upcoming episodes.

In the Winter Soldier flashback scene, I think the drawn-out killing of the eyewitness was done for dramatic effect. Realistically, the Winter Soldier would've just shot the guy immediately. However, my head canon agrees with above comments that the delay was due to inner Bucky trying to resist the brainwashing (that forces him to eliminate all eyewitnesses), but ultimately failing.

How to become the most hated character in the MCU without saying a word: 
(pic source)

Edited March 22, 2021 by tv echo

[swanpride]

The thing is the Winter Soldier CAN'T act sadistic because he doesn't have enough of an agency to do so. He is like a machine. And Bucky wouldn't act sadistic, because he is simply not a sadistic person. Hence the only logical Conclusion for the pause (other than the dramatic effect) is that even in Winter Soldier mode there is a part of Bucky which barks against killing innocent bystanders.

Bucky should get something, considering that he is technically a soldier and is owed a lot of backpay. There is certainly some sort of deal in place. Most likely Steve had some sort of deal, too.

[RollTheHardSix]

16 hours ago, swanpride said:

The thing is the Winter Soldier CAN'T act sadistic because he doesn't have enough of an agency to do so. He is like a machine. And Bucky wouldn't act sadistic, because he is simply not a sadistic person. Hence the only logical Conclusion for the pause (other than the dramatic effect) is that even in Winter Soldier mode there is a part of Bucky which barks against killing innocent bystanders.

Bucky should get something, considering that he is technically a soldier and is owed a lot of backpay. There is certainly some sort of deal in place. Most likely Steve had some sort of deal, too.

I get what you are saying and maybe my interpretation was just wrong, I'm not that convinced of it anyway.

But I have my issues with the "machine" interpretations. Yeah, he was conditioned, but there must be a limit to that. There has to be some type of independent thought/personality to function independently if needed. You cannot plan for every contingency - the protocol cannot contain every possible scenario and he still needs to make some decisions independently and on the fly if needed. I would imagine that a lot can go wrong during high-stakes missions and he would have to react to that on his own.

But maybe I am just trying to come at it too much with real-world-thinking...

On 3/19/2021 at 12:50 PM, Dandesun said:

Any time they show the Winter Soldier in action I sit there wondering why anyone ever referred to him as 'a ghost.'  He pulls people through walls, leaves a path of bodies behind him and gets rid of innocent bystanders by blowing their brains out at close range. Oooo... he's like the wind! Who was that? Was someone here? The only evidence is these fifteen dead bodies! What could have possibly happened?!

That tank was like a ghost! Said no one ever.

Hydra's clean up crews are the unsung heroes of the Winter Soldier's enigmatic reputation, I guess.

Also - this x100 😄

His kill count must be through the roof if that's a regular mission. His middle name must be have been "Collateral Damage"...

That was about as sublte as the Falcon's "subtle" mission at the start. No one's gonna notice that plane coming done, I'm sure.

Edited March 22, 2021 by RollTheHardSix

[benteen]

It was a good opening episode.  The action in the beginning was great and it was nice to see Georges St-Pierre brought back for it.  Nice to see Don Cheadle return as Rhodey too.  Both Sam and Bucky have very good personal storylines but I definitely thought Bucky's was the more interesting of the two.  I actually didn't realize that Bucky had killed Mr. Yori's son.  My initial thought was that he just found it easier hanging out with older people (Bucky is technically older than Yori) because they grew up in the same area closer to the same time frame.  Strong final scene as well.

I do think given Sam's background and the clear jock-sniffing the banker was doing that he would have been able to get that loan or at least would have been provided a way to do so.

Edited March 22, 2021 by benteen

[tv echo]

The Winter Soldier killed Yori's son because he was programmed to eliminate all eyewitnesses, I believe. That's how the Winter Soldier became an almost mythical assassin over the decades.

I think that the Winter Soldier was believed to be a "ghost story" because no one alive could attest to his existence. By eliminating all eyewitnesses, only dead bodies remained with no one left alive to say who did it or to say the killer was the Winter Soldier. Natasha was one of the few people who fought the Winter Soldier and survived.

Natasha: "Most of the intelligence community doesn't believe he exists. The ones that do call him the Winter Soldier. He's credited with over two dozen assassinations in the last 50 years."
Steve: "So he's a ghost story."

Here's a link to a video clip of Natasha telling Steve about the Winter Soldier:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xye-bMaqo-o

Edited March 22, 2021 by tv echo

[Ohiopirate02]

2 hours ago, RollTheHardSix said:

I also wonder if Bucky is receiving money from someone - and agree with the sentiment that he's not someone the government would want to go freelance because he needs money...

I assume part of his pardon agreement has him receiving enough money to survive.  I don't see Bucky getting this money indefinitely, but for a few years while he gets back on his feet.  

[FnkyChkn34]

I've tried to read through all of the posts, but I did it quickly so I apologize if this was mentioned and I missed it...

Why do we think the new faux Captain America is actually a "superhero" with any sort of enhanced abilities?  Why do we think that he was given any sort of serum or Steve's blood or whatever else that would make him special?  This may come from the comics - which I haven't read - but in this show at least, I think it's safe to assume that he's 100% a poser.  (Do kids still say that? 😂)  I think it's perfectly logical to believe that they have just dressed up a nobody to play a role, and he can't actually do anything or save anyone.  Maybe I'll be proven wrong later, but that's what I thought at first.  Once Sam turned in Steve's shield, they were able to just give it to an actor that is going to try to be a moral boost, but he's really just like a figurehead.  It's also only been a few months (2 months?) since the snap and Tony died, right?  There's no way anyone recreated Steve in only 2 months; they had to have been working on it for years prior to these events, and I feel like that would have been mentioned in a movie if so.