Predator and Prey: Assault, harassment, and other aggressions in the entertainment industry

[Spartan Girl]

Xena was a way more feminist show than Buffy. Xena was never shamed or traumatized for her sexuality. God help the man who ever tried to pull any of that shit with her.

[Lugal]

16 hours ago, supposebly said:

Anyway, back to Whedon. It often feels like the whole feminist thing about Buffy was more about what the media labeled it than what Whedon's intentions were. All his originality seemed to be rooted in "the blonde girl in the slasher movie that dies first is the hero instead of the victim". And people interpreted that as feminist. No doubt that seems somewhat empowering but the show as a whole, I never really saw that.

That's pretty much what it was.  Whedon was lucky enough to catch the zeitgeist of ass-kicking women of the late 90s (Xena, Sydney Bristow, Lara Croft, Seven of Nine and so on). I'm not saying they were all great examples or even particularly feminist, as they would usually straddle the line between eye candy for the male viewers and role models for the female viewers, which was probably the idea.

[Blergh]

8 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Xena was a way more feminist show than Buffy. Xena was never shamed or traumatized for her sexuality. God help the man who ever tried to pull any of that shit with her.

I agree! It wasn't perfect and it had its faults (especially towards the end with the IMO cockamamie idea of having Xena conceive a child with via her female arch enemy's spirit- then get frozen until the girl's adulthood so the audience wouldn't have to hang around for the baby to grow up). However, I agree with your basic analysis! 

[Guest]

On 3/18/2022 at 4:49 PM, supposebly said:

 

I don't know, I watched Alias and X-files at the time. Neither Dana Scully nor Sydney Bristow were what one would call manly. As female role models go, I would go with Scully and Sydney every time over Buffy. But then, I just never really liked the show. I found the dialogue so stilted and some of the acting downright laughable.

They are better role models but Scully wasn’t the sole lead of the X-files and Alias started 4 years after Buffy. X-files fit more in the standard mold and I am not sure that Sydney Bristow would have existed without Buffy. Buffy was the acceptable, male-gaze female empowerment show making it deeply flawed but it was still an important stepping stone. 

14 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Xena was a way more feminist show than Buffy. Xena was never shamed or traumatized for her sexuality. God help the man who ever tried to pull any of that shit with her.

Xena doesn’t get anywhere near enough credit probably because it was too groundbreaking. It was actually feminist in a world that only seemed to be ready for Whedon’s brand of faux-feminism. If it was being made today it would be undoubtedly be labeled as “woke”. 

[SunnyBeBe]

People, if you get a chance, check out the HBO documentary (2 part) by Evan Rachel Wood about the abuse from Brian Warner aka as Marilyn Manson.  There’s a thread for it here. It’s riveting!  I think we’ll be hearing much more about this.  She’s from my hometown, so it holds a special interest for me. 
 

 

 

Edited March 20, 2022 by SunnyBeBe

[Ms Blue Jay]

22 hours ago, Vermicious Knid said:

Xena?

The Relic Hunter?  I never watched it but I love Tia Carrere.  

As for Phoenix Rising, I have brought it up a few times here.  It's coming on my HBO channels this week and I will watch it at that point.  

Edited March 20, 2022 by Ms Blue Jay

[Guest]

On 3/18/2022 at 4:49 PM, supposebly said:

I'm trying to think of such manly female action characters from back then and have a hard time thinking of an example. I'm sure it's true, I might just have missed them.

I think it depends on how you define manly. I can think of a lot of examples and it’s not because the actresses were manly but be the characters could be gendered swapped with nearly nothing changing. When the female action stars nearly all wore a white tank top and black leather pants. Ellen Ripley and Sarah Connor are the classic examples.  Another example is in the cop/mystery shows where the women all were masculine clothing styles. A time when strong was seen as the antithesis of feminine. 

On 3/18/2022 at 4:49 PM, supposebly said:

All his originality seemed to be rooted in "the blonde girl in the slasher movie that dies first is the hero instead of the victim". And people interpreted that as feminist.

As a women I do feel like that basic concept is feminist and empowering. The first few seasons has high points that were very empowering at the time and still are strong even now. Cordelia’s arc through Buffy stands out particularly. The episode where Buffy and Cordelia are hunted on the way to homecoming is one that has stuck with me all this time. Whedon constantly undermined that and those empowering moments are often hand in hand with ones that are extremely problematic but as a teen girl at the time it was monumental.

In some ways I look back and find it sad that the bar was so low but I also can’t ignore that the show played a part in my expanding view of myself and feminism as a whole. Whedon is awful but he still created something that helped paved a path to where we are now. Truthfully, I’m not sure that I would have even been accepting of some of the truly empowering characters that we have now if there wasn’t that evolution. I didn’t like Xena at the time because it was too much for me and I wasn’t even slightly aware how much I had internalized the misogyny of the time. 

Edited March 20, 2022 by Guest

[Vermicious Knid]

I suggested Xena because she was 6 feet tall, muscled, and put in a kilt and bustier. She was meant to be the female counterpart to Conan and they went with a look that was basically Conan with breasts. Now, it's a testament to the writers and actors the show became something more.

[Zella]

I feel like Sarah Connor is actually a more complicated example of that because though T2 Sarah Connor comes across that way, she doesn't at all seem like a "manly" character in the first movie. And she's in many ways a very emotionally broken character in the second movie--her underage son is basically a more functional adult than she is. To me, she seems like someone who's developed that persona as a response to trauma that's still clearly affecting her. On the surface, she certainly looks "cool" and "strong," though I'm not sure that's really an accurate description of her either. Granted, I've only ever watched the first 2 movies. Not sure how she comes across in later ones or in other versions not played by Linda Hamilton. 

Edited March 20, 2022 by Zella

[Guest]

I’m not saying that they couldn’t have depth. Until very recently female action characters were all about appealing to men more than representing women. They did that using a well defined mold. They modeled traits that were traditionally more masculine than feminine. Those early prototypes were actually groundbreaking and are more empowering than Buffy but they quickly became their own trope. 

[Zella]

1 minute ago, Dani said:

I’m not saying that they couldn’t have depth. Until very recently female action characters were all about appealing to men more than representing women. They did that using a well defined mold. They modeled traits that were traditionally more masculine than feminine. Those early prototypes were actually groundbreaking and are more empowering than Buffy but they quickly became their own trope. 

I'd be really interested in how women view her versus men. I don't look at Sarah Connor and think "What a badass." Truthfully, I look at her and think she's actually pretty pitiful. But I can see how that is perhaps not how Cameron envisioned her being received. 

[Hiyo]

She is both, which is what makes her (to me, anyway) an interesting, complex character.

[possibilities]

Male heroes are not typically all that complex. The world settles for muscles and magical abilities. They swoop in, kick ass, and sail off in a cloud of glory.

But of course, female heroes aren't worth anything unless they can also weep, nurture, and show they're actually flawed.

[Guest]

13 hours ago, Zella said:

I'd be really interested in how women view her versus men. I don't look at Sarah Connor and think "What a badass." Truthfully, I look at her and think she's actually pretty pitiful. But I can see how that is perhaps not how Cameron envisioned her being received. 

It is interesting how men and women judge what makes a women strong. Cameron (like Whedon) is a prime example of men who think they know what is empowering better than women. Like when he tried to say that the Wonder Woman was a step backwards because Gal Gadot is gorgeous and her costume is sexy. 

I completely agreed with Patty Jenkins’ response to that: "James Cameron's inability to understand what Wonder Woman is, or stands for, to women all over the world is unsurprising as, though, he is a great filmmaker, he is not a woman. His praise of my film 'Monster' and our portrayal of a strong yet damaged woman was so appreciated, but if women have to always be hard, tough, and troubled to be strong, and we aren't free to be multidimensional or celebrate an icon of women everywhere because she is attractive and loving, then we haven't come very far. I believe women can and should be EVERYTHING just like male lead characters should be. There is no right or wrong kind of powerful woman. And the massive female audience who made the film a hit it is, can surely choose and judge their own icons of progress.”

He then doubled down on his criticism and said that he applauded her and Hollywood for “letting” her direct a major action franchise. I think he’s an ass which really colors how I view is movies.

Cameron also said that, “Being attracted to strong independent women has the downside that they’re strong independent women – they inherently don’t need you!” I think that attitude shows in his movies. He has a pretty narrow view of what makes a strong woman and seems to want to knock them down somewhat.  

Edited March 21, 2022 by Guest

[Vermicious Knid]

And he was married to Linda Hamilton, who played Sarah Connor. They met while he was married to director Kathryn Bigelow, then cheated on Linda with Suzy Amis who played Rose's granddaughter in Titanic. They're still married, maybe because she hasn't developed her own independence. He's attracted to strong women, enjoys showcasing them in his movies, but doesn't actually respect them.

[Zella]

I commented this about Jerry Lewis on here a couple of weeks ago, but I've never once heard anyone say anything pleasant about James Cameron either. Whenever his name comes up, I was always think about that anecdote from The Abyss that Ed Harris allegedly punched him in the face for continuing to film while he was nearly drowning, as well as the cruel shit he did to Kate Winslet on the set of Titanic. 

Edited March 21, 2022 by Zella

[Hiyo]

Quote

Male heroes are not typically all that complex. The world settles for muscles and magical abilities. They swoop in, kick ass, and sail off in a cloud of glory.

But of course, female heroes aren't worth anything unless they can also weep, nurture, and show they're actually flawed.

Which makes them so much interesting than their one note male counterparts.

[Guest]

21 hours ago, Zella said:

I commented this about Jerry Lewis on here a couple of weeks ago, but I've never once heard anyone say anything pleasant about James Cameron either. Whenever his name comes up, I was always think about that anecdote from The Abyss that Ed Harris allegedly punched him in the face for continuing to film while he was nearly drowning, as well as the cruel shit he did to Kate Winslet on the set of Titanic. 

I didn’t know about either of those instances. The thing that comes to my mind is Amy Poehler’s joke at the Golden Globes. 
“I haven’t been really following the controversy over Zero Dark Thirty, but when it comes to torture, I trust the lady [Kathryn Bigelow] who spent three years married to James Cameron.”

Edited March 22, 2022 by Guest

[Mr. Sparkle]

Hi all - just a reminder that we have this thread Gender on television - It's like feminism never happened  and some of these posts might fit better there. Thank you! 

[aradia22]

Quote

I loved Buffy back in the day, but I never understood all the feminist mystique surrounding it. I always assumed it was just because it was an action type show with a female lead. Because, other than that, there was nothing particularly female positive about it. 

Xena was RIGHT THERE. And a bisexual queen. Charmed was also premiering around the same time.

I also liked shows like Relic Hunter but I had unreliable taste as a child so it might have been terrible.

[AgathaC]

13 hours ago, Zella said:

I commented this about Jerry Lewis on here a couple of weeks ago, but I've never once heard anyone say anything pleasant about James Cameron either. Whenever his name comes up, I was always think about that anecdote from The Abyss that Ed Harris allegedly punched him in the face for continuing to film while he was nearly drowning, as well as the cruel shit he did to Kate Winslet on the set of Titanic. 

There’s a good reason why people who worked on The Abyss called it The Abuse. There’s a documentary on the making of the film and it does not paint a pretty picture. I think Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio still refuses to talk about it. I recall coming away from it with the impression that Cameron is so focused on his “vision” that he doesn’t see the actors or crew as human beings at all — in an emotional or physical sense. Complete lack of empathy. Terrifying.

It’s been several years but that was what I thought at the time.

[Danny Franks]

On 3/18/2022 at 3:09 PM, Spartan Girl said:

Huh. What gets me is for all of Whedon’s bullshit about not wanting to see female characters be victims, he certainly was in the habit of victimizing them on a fairly regular basis in the show AND in real life.

I'm guessing the double standard is some kind of white knight proclivity - he doesn't want to see the women he likes and puts on a pedestal be victims, but he's more than happy to victimise those who don't give him what he considers proper respect and affection.

And if he felt slighted by women he liked, he was probably quick to turn on them - hence the garbage treatment of Charisma Carpenter when she was written out of Angel.

I've mentioned this before, but I always come back to thinking about how Whedon subtly smeared SMG after Buffy ended - comments about stars becoming difficult to work with that were clearly aimed at her - and I don't really know why he felt he had to do that, other than pure vindictiveness.

On 3/18/2022 at 11:49 PM, supposebly said:

I'm trying to think of such manly female action characters from back then and have a hard time thinking of an example. I'm sure it's true, I might just have missed them.

Aeryn Sun wasn't the protagonist of Farscape, but she was a kickass warrior who never made apologies for being strong (or for anything, really).  Chiana too, who conformed more to the 'sexy, slutty, alien girl' stereotype but she was never shamed for being sexual and open, and she was still tough, brave and loyal to her friends.

Edited March 23, 2022 by Danny Franks

[GaT]

15 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

I've mentioned this before, but I always come back to thinking about how Whedon subtly smeared SMG after Buffy ended - comments about stars becoming difficult to work with that were clearly aimed at her - and I don't really know why he felt he had to do that, other than pure vindictiveness.

SMG has always said that she & Joss sat down & decided to end Buffy, but I wonder if that's really true. Maybe she decided she was done being Buffy & he had no choice but to go along since she was the star of the show.

[Trini]

Noel Clarke had been brought up here before, so here's an update:

'Actor Noel Clarke will not face a criminal investigation over sexual offence allegations'

Quote

...

The Metropolitan Police says there is not enough evidence against him.

In 2021, The Guardian newspaper published allegations of misconduct from 20 women who had worked with Clarke.

The incidents included complaints of groping and sexual misconduct between 2004 and 2019. He has denied all allegations.

The Met has released a statement saying special detectives had carried out a "thorough assessment" of the claims, but "determined the information would not meet the threshold for a criminal investigation".

 

[BetterButter]

Ghislaine Maxwell bid for retrial denied

[andromeda331]

4 hours ago, BetterButter said:

Ghislaine Maxwell bid for retrial denied

Good!

[Vermicious Knid]

Louis CK just won the Grammy for best comedy album. He shouldn't have even been eligible for nomination.

[Kel Varnsen]

36 minutes ago, Vermicious Knid said:

Louis CK just won the Grammy for best comedy album. He shouldn't have even been eligible for nomination.

How would the Grammys make any kind of rule or code that would prevent Louis CK from being eligible for nomination? And if they could would it come with some kind of length of punishment?

Edited April 5, 2022 by Kel Varnsen

[Hiyo]

Quote

How would the Grammys make any kind of rule or code that would prevent Louis CK from being eligible for nomination? And if they could would it come with some kind of length of punishment?

Yeah, I'm not sure they have rules to make people ineligible for nomination.

[possibilities]

Even if there's no rule, it shows the general state of mind of the industry, where scumbags still get nominated and there is basically no concern at all about their disgusting behavior.

 

[Kel Varnsen]

3 hours ago, possibilities said:

Even if there's no rule, it shows the general state of mind of the industry, where scumbags still get nominated and there is basically no concern at all about their disgusting behavior.

 

Although I have to wonder if CK's album was actually that much better than the other nominees that recording academy voters were willing to overlook his past behavior. If so that has to kind of suck if you were one of the other nominees.

[bluegirl147]

10 hours ago, Vermicious Knid said:

Louis CK just won the Grammy for best comedy album. He shouldn't have even been eligible for nomination.

I think more blame should be on the people who voted for him.  I get the whole separating the art from the artist but for me if you do what Louis CK did he could paint something to rival the Mona Lisa and I'm going to say it's ugly crap.  

Years ago I wrote a blog post for a friend's blog about this very thing.  What is the line in the sand that makes you stop watching/listening to someone when they have done something offensive?  For me it's always been when they have done something that hurts someone else.  I stopped listening to Michael Jackson.  Stopped listening to Chris Brown.  Stopped watching Mel Gibson movies (words hurt too). Stop listening to R Kelly.  Never liked Louis CK so didn't have to give him up.  

[BetterButter]

Sono Sion, Japanese Film Director, Accused of Sexual Harassment

Quote

Sono Sion, the self-proclaimed maverick Japanese film director known for raunchy indie movies including “Love Exposure” and “Antiporno,” has been accused of sexual harassment by several actresses in Japan’s film industry.

 

[Kel Varnsen]

11 hours ago, bluegirl147 said:

think more blame should be on the people who voted for him.  I get the whole separating the art from the artist but for me if you do what Louis CK did he could paint something to rival the Mona Lisa and I'm going to say it's ugly crap

I feel like more than any other major award show, the Grammys would look really different if they tried to institute some kind of rules you can't break if you want a nomination system.  I mean it was a little over a week ago where a 4 time grammy winner assaulted a 3 time grammy winner. 

Edited April 6, 2022 by Kel Varnsen

[SunnyBeBe]

8 hours ago, bluegirl147 said:

I think more blame should be on the people who voted for him.  I get the whole separating the art from the artist but for me if you do what Louis CK did he could paint something to rival the Mona Lisa and I'm going to say it's ugly crap.  

Years ago I wrote a blog post for a friend's blog about this very thing.  What is the line in the sand that makes you stop watching/listening to someone when they have done something offensive?  For me it's always been when they have done something that hurts someone else.  I stopped listening to Michael Jackson.  Stopped listening to Chris Brown.  Stopped watching Mel Gibson movies (words hurt too). Stop listening to R Kelly.  Never liked Louis CK so didn't have to give him up.  

Me too.  It’s a personal decision and I really hate it when I have to turn off Man In The Mirror when it comes on the radio, but I must.  I wish someone good would cover that song.  I am dismayed and confused when I see celebrities sing Michael Jackson’s praises in interviews.  It boggles the mind.  
 

[andromeda331]

4 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Me too.  It’s a personal decision and I really hate it when I have to turn off Man In The Mirror when it comes on the radio, but I must.  I wish someone good would cover that song.  I am dismayed and confused when I see celebrities sing Michael Jackson’s praises in interviews.  It boggles the mind.  
 

So do I. Child molesters make me sick. 

[RealHousewife]

Not sure how many here have been watching the Secrets of Playboy documentary, but another woman accused Hugh Hefner of rape. It sounds like he was one of the biggest monsters in all of Hollywood. 

https://people.com/crime/hugh-hefner-alleged-rape-audrey-huskey-secrets-of-playboy/

[Mr. Sparkle]

9 hours ago, RealHousewife said:

Not sure how many here have been watching the Secrets of Playboy documentary, but another woman accused Hugh Hefner of rape. It sounds like he was one of the biggest monsters in all of Hollywood. 

https://people.com/crime/hugh-hefner-alleged-rape-audrey-huskey-secrets-of-playboy/

Put me in the "not surprised at all" category. 

[Prairie Rose]

51 minutes ago, Superclam said:

Put me in the "not surprised at all" category. 

Same.

[supposebly]

Not surprised either. Why anyone would be however would surprise me.

[BlackberryJam]

11 hours ago, RealHousewife said:

Not sure how many here have been watching the Secrets of Playboy documentary, but another woman accused Hugh Hefner of rape. It sounds like he was one of the biggest monsters in all of Hollywood. 

https://people.com/crime/hugh-hefner-alleged-rape-audrey-huskey-secrets-of-playboy/

I'm waiting for the stampede of, "well, he never raped me" statements before I vomit. I want to get it all out in one big heave. 

 

[RealHousewife]

48 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

I'm waiting for the stampede of, "well, he never raped me" statements before I vomit. I want to get it all out in one big heave. 

 

A lot of former bunnies and Playmates already pulled that crap. :(

I understand if someone merely answers questions about their own experience, but it’s crazy to think just because he never touched you that he couldn’t have raped anyone else. Serial killers don’t kill everyone they come into contact with. 

[akg]

11 hours ago, RealHousewife said:

Serial killers don’t kill everyone they come into contact with. 

This is amazing and I just wanted to quote it to make sure more people have it in mind the next time they're stuck in that same stupid argument.

[Vermicious Knid]

I always like to point out true crime writer Ann Rule worked with Ted Bundy and he was very solicitous of her, walking her to her car at night. She refused to believe he was a killer for years because she only saw him being kind. He has a specific type for victims and she wasn't it.

[BlackberryJam]

Anyone following the Heard/Depp trial that just started in Virginia?

I think the filing was a big mistake on his part, especially continuing on after losing against the Sun in the UK case. This seems to be a full on vendetta against Amber, specifically.

People would have forgotten about her OpEd already. I wouldn’t remember it at all if not for this case. 

The result of this trial will likely have real impact on how victims of abuse speak out against abusers.

[callie lee 29]

On 4/12/2022 at 12:49 PM, BlackberryJam said:

Anyone following the Heard/Depp trial that just started in Virginia?

I think the filing was a big mistake on his part, especially continuing on after losing against the Sun in the UK case. This seems to be a full on vendetta against Amber, specifically.

People would have forgotten about her OpEd already. I wouldn’t remember it at all if not for this case. 

The result of this trial will likely have real impact on how victims of abuse speak out against abusers.

I have not but the morning show I listen to has been talking about it. They seem to be very much on Depp's side. 

[BlackberryJam]

51 minutes ago, callie lee 29 said:

I have not but the morning show I listen to has been talking about it. They seem to be very much on Depp's side. 

I've seen "Justice4Johnny" stuff, but I think that's just a misunderstanding of the legal issues. Johnny isn't charged with anything criminal. He's suing Amber for an OpEd she wrote that doesn't even use his name, saying she cost him work based solely basis of that OpEd and she should pay him 50 million for it.

I think it's near impossible for him to prove that the OpEd alone, and not the mutual court filings, his behavior, his aging, his multiple lawsuits against other, etc, are what cost him roles. 

Also, the UK court has already found that under a civil standard, it's appropriate to name him a wifebeater based on 12 acts of violence against her. 

It's all so ill-advised for Johnny, but damn if I'm not interested in a celebrity shitshow. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

Cuba has been accused by at least 20 different women!  My god.

Quote

Cuba Gooding Jr., the actor who had been accused by more than 20 women of groping or forcibly kissing them in encounters that dated back more than two decades, pleaded guilty in Manhattan on Wednesday to one count of forcible touching.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/13/nyregion/cuba-gooding-jr-guilty.html?smtyp=cur&smid=fb-nytimes&fbclid=IwAR2c8VS98RgmxZ1VA2leS6mdJxAj9UmL0kefZrpTNnkqsGANX6roy0v5dmQ

Edited April 13, 2022 by Ms Blue Jay

[Ohiopirate02]

14 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

I've seen "Justice4Johnny" stuff, but I think that's just a misunderstanding of the legal issues. Johnny isn't charged with anything criminal. He's suing Amber for an OpEd she wrote that doesn't even use his name, saying she cost him work based solely basis of that OpEd and she should pay him 50 million for it.

I think it's near impossible for him to prove that the OpEd alone, and not the mutual court filings, his behavior, his aging, his multiple lawsuits against other, etc, are what cost him roles. 

Also, the UK court has already found that under a civil standard, it's appropriate to name him a wifebeater based on 12 acts of violence against her. 

It's all so ill-advised for Johnny, but damn if I'm not interested in a celebrity shitshow. 

Johnny has been on a downward spiral for years now that has nothing to do with Amber.  She did not help.  That was one toxic AF relationship.  But, I don't know how he's going to prove she cost him work and not his drinking.

[Peace 47]

 

1 hour ago, BlackberryJam said:

I think it's near impossible for him to prove that the OpEd alone, and not the mutual court filings, his behavior, his aging, his multiple lawsuits against other, etc, are what cost him roles. 

I agree that I don’t know exactly how he could prove her op ed specifically cost him work.  Contemporaneous articles (like this one from the Hollywood Reporter) that were published at the time of his removal from the new Fantastic Beasts movie noted that Warner Brothers didn’t make a decision about getting Depp off the picture until after the UK court decision (which was well after the op ed was published) and that Warner Brothers didn’t want to take any action against him until there was a court determination involved (even though it wasn’t a criminal case). (In addition, he got paid his full salary for that film due to his pay-or-play contract.)

And apparently Heard’s lawyers are indicating that while Disney was considering ditching Depp from the Pirates franchise by collecting negative news about him, they never collected the op ed as part of their efforts, so the op ed didn’t register in the public consciousness as a hit job on Depp.

But Depp has some unsettling diehard stans, and if some of them are on the jury, who knows?

Edited April 13, 2022 by Peace 47