S19.E04: Jimmy Kimmel; Charlotte Alter; Matt Welch

[PrincessPurrsALot]

Interview: Jimmy Kimmel: Comedian and host of ABC’s Jimmy Kimmel Live!

Panel:  

• Charlotte Alter: Senior Correspondent at TIME and author of “The Ones We’ve Been Waiting For: How a New Generation of Leaders Will Transform America.”
• Matt Welch: Host of “The Reason Roundtable” podcast and co-host of “The Fifth Column” podcast.

Original air date 2021.02.05

[Robert Lynch]

Oh, my God! What was that all about? Terrible, terrible show! Nothing was interesting. Just Bill being Bill. 

[bobbyjoe]

At this point shouldn’t they just change the name of the show to “Crotchety Old Man Complains About ‘These Kids Today’ For Fifty Minutes”?  Is this at all entertaining anymore?

Edited February 6, 2021 by bobbyjoe

[Gothish520]

Oof, I found the panel annoying and boring. The Kimmel segment has its amusing moments, but no purpose really.

The final New Rule saved this episode from complete mediocrity. 

[RealHousewife]

I enjoyed the show. 🤷‍♀️ If you're a fan of Bill, you probably will too. 

[Robert Lynch]

Geez....I was more surprised at how easy they were on Armie Hammer.

[littlepaw]

OMFG, Bill, I'm less than 8 minutes in and he's whining about his bleeping solar. And "it's not a good advertisement for the Democrats". Yes, Bill, it's AMAZING anybody in California is still a Democrat after your traumatic, horrendous experience.

Honest to God, I live in San Diego County and I have solar, lots of people I know have solar. I don't know what the deal is in Beverly Hills, but waaah, rich people's problems.

And now we're on to cancel culture and virtue signaling. Not sure I can make it through the rest of the show. 

[angelamh66]

Another panel discussion that gave me a headache. The only saving grace was Alter pointing out that women have had to think about consequences for their sexual behavior forever and so what if men finally have to. Also her pointing out that old people thought the radio was going to ruin the kids too made me chuckle. Bill has really taken a turn into get off my lawn territory. 

I know he has Libertarian tendencies but if this is just going to become the Libertarian hour I’ll probably be done. Libertarianism - because Americans aren’t already selfish enough. 

I am all for personal freedom but none of our rights exist in a vacuum. 

Edited February 6, 2021 by angelamh66

[arachne]

In his final New Rule, Bill started out well by pointing out the cultish nature of Q-anon. But then he had to turn it into one of his tired all-religions-are-stupid rants. 🙄 

[3 is enough]

I'm in the Pacific Time Zone, so I usually tune in for the second half hour after I watch Jeopardy!  

But honestly, I think I won't bother anymore.  Bill really has turned into a crochety old man, and he is only a few years older than me. 

I really hate his anti-religious rants.  I respect the fact that he is an atheist, and even understand why, but he is essentially turning into an evangelical atheist- doing the exact same thing he roasts the evangelical Christians for doing.

It just isn't enjoyable to watch anymore.

[iMonrey]

OMG what an utter waste of an hour. With all the things going on in this country - and in the world right now - the thing Bill wants to bitch about is that Democrats are snowflakes and cancel culture. Yeah, because that's really the big problem. It's not gerrymandering or the electoral college, it's that they're renaming schools.

Then that whole discussion about Armie Hammer? Really? 

Quote

At this point shouldn’t they just change the name of the show to “Crotchety Old Man Complains About ‘These Kids Today’ For Fifty Minutes”?  Is this at all entertaining anymore?

Honestly, he really is turning into Dennis Miller right before our very eyes. 

That said, I agree 100% with his final new rule about these Q-Anon believers and why they're so open to these kinds of crazy ideas. And I'll quote Bill verbatim: "You've already made space in your head for shit that doesn't make sense."

[Gothish520]

1 hour ago, arachne said:

In his final New Rule, Bill started out well by pointing out the cultish nature of Q-anon. But then he had to turn it into one of his tired all-religions-are-stupid rants. 🙄 

Bill and I are of like minds there. I always enjoy his atheist rants.

[DXD526]

I always love a Bill religion rant, too. The New Rule was indeed the best part of the episode.

But what was that millennial rant all about? So Bill hangs out with people in their 30s because, why? People his age are busy with family obligations and don't want to play with him, was that the reason he gave? He's 65, FFS. I'm not sure what his point was there, but he sure was riled up about it. 

I've never heard of Armie Hammer. After that discussion, I don't think I'm missing anything. 

[Pike Ludwell]

Loved this show. And last week's too. Always love the anti-religion rants. Where else can you hear that? It's either not allowed or too many people are afraid to say such things publicly. Loved the anti-Me Too/ skeptical of BLM thinking discussed on his show - especially with Kmele Foster last week. I listen regularly to the Fifth Column podcast. Kmele was on last week. Welch was on this week. Will Michael Moynihan be on next week? I hope so. I hope he continues with this sort of theme -- its the only place on TV where you can hear reality discussed without interference from social pressures.

[BrownBear2012]

2 hours ago, angelamh66 said:

Another panel discussion that gave me a headache. The only saving grace was Alter pointing out that women have had to think about consequences for their sexual behavior forever and so what if men finally have to. Also her pointing out that old people thought the radio was going to ruin the kids too made me chuckle. Bill has really taken a turn into get off my lawn territory. 

I know he has Libertarian tendencies but if this is just going to become the Libertarian hour I’ll probably be done. Libertarianism - because Americans aren’t already selfish enough. 

I am all for personal freedom but none of our rights exist in a vacuum. 

Didn't watch and glad I didn't...sounds like the same shows he did 2017, 2018 and 2019...ranting about "young people", religion, Democrats, cancel culture (a term I have grown to hate...how about just saying "quit being a dick and treat people better" instead) and other things that only matter to him and his life. He is not a liberal...he is a full blown Libertarian. I expect to see him on Fox or OAN or Newsmax once his show ends.

[BrownBear2012]

13 hours ago, bobbyjoe said:

At this point shouldn’t they just change the name of the show to “Crotchety Old Man Complains About ‘These Kids Today’ For Fifty Minutes”?  Is this at all entertaining anymore?

Right? Bernie Sanders is in his mid 70's and has a legion of young people who love him but Bill is 65 and has to constantly bash millinnials and Gen Z because they don't show him the love and admiration he feel he deserves? You earn love and admiration Bill...and one way you get it is by respecting them and maybe reaching out to this group in a less combative, belligerent way. Otherwise you just come off as a cranky douchy old guy who lives alone and is bitter and angry. Why would people under the age of 40 want to engage with you when you have no desire to have a dialogue with them except to berate them?

[Avaleigh]

3 hours ago, Gothish520 said:

Bill and I are of like minds there. I always enjoy his atheist rants.

I liked this rant too. I disagree with the idea the he's the equivalent of an evangelical atheist. He was giving his take on why certain people have become believers in Q even though the shit makes no sense. A lot of these people are already used to believing in things that don't add up. I thought it was a valid and interesting perspective on why certain people are more susceptible to believing in these crazy theories.

I like that Bill isn't scared to take on religion. There isn't another show of this kind (that I know of at least) where the host isn't worried about offending whichever religious group. I find it refreshing. 

2 hours ago, BrownBear2012 said:

He is not a liberal...he is a full blown Libertarian. I expect to see him on Fox or OAN or Newsmax once his show ends.

I can't see OAN or Fox hiring Bill. Apart from the fact that he would never be on the Trump bandwagon, there's his whole position on religion. IMO they wouldn't want any part of that since a big part of the conservative news spin is how Christianity is supposedly under attack and people like Bill are supporters of a war against Christmas.

4 hours ago, iMonrey said:

With all the things going on in this country - and in the world right now - the thing Bill wants to bitch about is that Democrats are snowflakes and cancel culture. Yeah, because that's really the big problem. It's not gerrymandering or the electoral college, it's that they're renaming schools.

I agree that there are a lot of other topics that are more worthy of discussion but I understand why Bill spent some time talking about some of the schools that are being renamed. These are the sort of minor issues that put together collectively with other minor issues (issues that for the sake of argument we'll file under "cancel culture") make certain voters turn away from the politicians who are supportive of these issues.

Bill has talked a lot about how the left can start to get certain voters to not see the D by a politician's name as something that comes across as completely toxic. When you have people deciding that Abraham Lincoln is no longer worthy enough to have a school named after him, there are inevitably going to be some people who will roll their eyes and acknowledge that it's things like this that will never get them to vote Democrat. You'll also have a handful people who will begin to question whether or not they're still in sync with the party.

[Pike Ludwell]

4 hours ago, DXD526 said:

But what was that millennial rant all about? So Bill hangs out with people in their 30s because, why? People his age are busy with family obligations and don't want to play with him, was that the reason he gave? He's 65, FFS. I'm not sure what his point was there, but he sure was riled up about it. 

I sort of understand where he's coming from on that. I'm around his age and I too find people of this age mostly boring. I raised no kids and maintained freedom my whole life. I'm still super-enthusiastic about the music I grew up with. And I keep up with popular culture in general. Most people of this age have had kids and have devoted their lives to raising kids. That's taken most of their attention and I often find it hard to even relate to them. What they want to talk about mostly is their family life and that sort of thing and it just bores me to death. Even though of the same age it's like talking to my grandparents.

Edited February 6, 2021 by Pike Ludwell

[RealHousewife]

2 hours ago, Pike Ludwell said:

I sort of understand where he's coming from on that. I'm around his age and I too find people of this age mostly boring. I raised no kids and maintained freedom my whole life. I'm still super-enthusiastic about the music I grew up with. And I keep up with popular culture in general. Most people of this age have had kids and have devoted their lives to raising kids. That's taken most of their attention and I often find it hard to even relate to them. What they want to talk about mostly is their family life and that sort of thing and it just bores me to death. Even though of the same age it's like talking to my grandparents.

Millennial here, and that makes complete sense to me. I could totally be friends with Bill and other folks like him. A lot of people my age are currently raising children, and their lives outside of work are often their spouses, kids, perhaps church. When you are a curious person who cares about the world, politics, other news, pop culture, and have the time to to keep up with it all, you love the company of someone who also has time and interest for things outside of family and enjoys discussing them. I'm not religious or into sports, so Bill's kind of right up my alley.

[BK1978]

I do find it funny that Bill is having a conversation about being PC with Jimmy Kimmel.  He is perhaps the most PC person out there.  Now the Jimmy Kimmel from twenty years ago is different but who he is now...yeah totally PC.

[cpcathy]

20 hours ago, Gothish520 said:

Bill and I are of like minds there. I always enjoy his atheist rants.

Me too. 

[Victor the Crab]

With all that is out there in the world right now, Bill just has to go out of his way to defend Armie Hammer from those cootie covered girls who accuse him of sexual misconduct. Proving yet another example of why the sexist, misogynistic Bill loses more and more support from those on the left.

[iMonrey]

Quote

But what was that millennial rant all about? So Bill hangs out with people in their 30s because, why? People his age are busy with family obligations and don't want to play with him, was that the reason he gave? He's 65, FFS. I'm not sure what his point was there, but he sure was riled up about it.

For one thing it kind of sounded like he was saying millennials aren't afraid to hang out with friends because of COVID. Which is dumb, but there you go. But who knows how many millennials Bill actually knows and hangs out with enough to form an opinion of them. He's drawing a conclusion about an entire generation from a limited and particular sample.

Quote

 When you have people deciding that Abraham Lincoln is no longer worthy enough to have a school named after him, there are inevitably going to be some people who will roll their eyes and acknowledge that it's things like this that will never get them to vote Democrat. You'll also have a handful people who will begin to question whether or not they're still in sync with the party.

But that sounds more like a California politically correct thing than a Democrat thing in general. Bill is ranting about something that is completely anecdotal rather than a widespread issue with a particular political party. When I think of Democrats I don't automatically think "oh, they rename schools." I never even heard of that until now. If they have a branding problem I don't think that's the main cause. It's just something Bill heard about and decided to bitch about. Mainly because he thinks bitching about Democrats makes him apolitical. Same reason he has right wing nutjobs on his show.

[Avaleigh]

15 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

But that sounds more like a California politically correct thing than a Democrat thing in general. Bill is ranting about something that is completely anecdotal rather than a widespread issue with a particular political party. When I think of Democrats I don't automatically think "oh, they rename schools." I never even heard of that until now. If they have a branding problem I don't think that's the main cause. It's just something Bill heard about and decided to bitch about. Mainly because he thinks bitching about Democrats makes him apolitical. Same reason he has right wing nutjobs on his show.

I agree that something like renaming schools isn't the main cause of the Democrats having a branding issue. I said it's an example of minor so-called "cancel culture" issues that put together collectively with other minor issues makes people associate the Democrats with being supportive of things that seem ridiculous or unnecessary. 

I understand why Bill brings things like this up because these are exactly the sort of stories that the right wing media pounce on so they can twist them to their advantage. Not only did Fox News cover the story about renaming the schools in California but Laura Ingraham did a whole thing on a Virginia school board voting in favor to rename various buildings. They make it seem like this is what you get when you support the left as opposed to it being something that is confined to the more PC areas of California. 

Just to be clear, I'm not against renaming buildings and am definitely in favor of renaming military bases that are named after Confederates. I just think that when they decide that people like Abraham Lincoln, Paul Revere or Robert Louis Stevenson are no longer worthy it doesn't help the impression that some people have of the party when it comes to the so-called canceling of historical figures. I don't see how this is progressive or helps support civil rights and I think that's where Bill was coming from when he brought it up. 

 

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

But that sounds more like a California politically correct thing than a Democrat thing in general. Bill is ranting about something that is completely anecdotal rather than a widespread issue with a particular political party. When I think of Democrats I don't automatically think "oh, they rename schools." I never even heard of that until now. If they have a branding problem I don't think that's the main cause. It's just something Bill heard about and decided to bitch about. Mainly because he thinks bitching about Democrats makes him apolitical. Same reason he has right wing nutjobs on his show.

 

53 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

I agree that something like renaming schools isn't the main cause of the Democrats having a branding issue. I said it's an example of minor so-called "cancel culture" issues that put together collectively with other minor issues makes people associate the Democrats with being supportive of things that seem ridiculous or unnecessary. 

I understand why Bill brings things like this up because these are exactly the sort of stories that the right wing media pounce on so they can twist them to their advantage. Not only did Fox News cover the story about renaming the schools in California but Laura Ingraham did a whole thing on a Virginia school board voting in favor to rename various buildings. They make it seem like this is what you get when you support the left as opposed to it being something that is confined to the more PC areas of California. 

 

But they don't need anything real to pounce on. When Bill pushes that narrative, he's not helping the Dems, he's pushing the same message of Fox news, that Fox news would have nothing to say if the Dems stopped doing things to drive people away. As if there's not whole conservative networks that fund people to find anecdotal stories that can be used or flat-out lied about to push. It also kind of suggests that it's reasonable for someone to be so offended at disrespecting Abraham Lincoln's that they join the KKK.

[Avaleigh]

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

It also kind of suggests that it's reasonable for someone to be so offended at disrespecting Abraham Lincoln's that they join the KKK.

It's not so much that stories like this necessarily make people become right wing or that the response is to go extreme in the other direction. It's that it makes some people feel like they're no longer in sync with the party. It's more about the left losing potential voters they might not have lost.

I agree with you that the right wing media outlets will always find ridiculous stories to push.

[Winston Wolfe]

Not one of his strongest shows. A bit surprising since there is so much topical content to cover. I too didn't get the Jimmy Kimmell opening segment. It just seemed like a paid opportunity to hang out and they really didn't discuss anything of interest, other than Bill being a former minority owner of the New York Mets.

On 2/6/2021 at 12:50 PM, iMonrey said:

Quote

At this point shouldn’t they just change the name of the show to “Crotchety Old Man Complains About ‘These Kids Today’ For Fifty Minutes”?  Is this at all entertaining anymore?

Honestly, he really is turning into Dennis Miller right before our very eyes. 

Both Bill and Dennis (where is he now???) should look at some old George Carlin clips. That's how you do "grouchy old man" in a way that's both insightful and entertaining.

[Tachi Rocinante]

20 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

But they don't need anything real to pounce on. When Bill pushes that narrative, he's not helping the Dems, he's pushing the same message of Fox news, that Fox news would have nothing to say if the Dems stopped doing things to drive people away.

Yeah, my takeaway is that if someone like Marjorie Taylor Greene or others pick up on the school renaming and spout off about it, it will give them credibility because it's true.

[monakane]

I watched for the first time in months.  I turned it off when Bill was crying about his investment in the Mets.  No one cares Bill!  It sounds like the rest of the show was the same old Bill.  

[littlepaw]

As what is typical with both Bill and right-wing media (not that they are mutually exclusive), is: They both take an isolated incident and blow it all out of proportion to the tune of "Crazy Democrats are doing this everywhere!"

The school renaming story has a glimmer of truth: It was ONE school, the renaming was proposed by ONE person, there are 44 other schools that are under consideration, but the most important component IMO is that the school has NOT been renamed, the voting on that hasn't happened yet. (And it's in the San Francisco area, an area that is known for being further to the left than many other places, but even the mayor thinks it's ridiculous to focus on renaming in the midst of a pandemic) The only place I believe this minor story has ever seen the light of day is in tabloids and Fox News, as far as I can tell. This is hardly the first time that Bill has glommed onto something like this, I hear him bring "the Democrats are out of control!" type things  up during the panel discussion, things I've never heard of before until I start googling and find, again, it's one minor incident that is presented as established policy of the koo-koo bananas, overly-politically-correct "liberals". Yet he hadn't heard of MJT's babbling about Jewish space lasers, which WAS being covered pretty thoroughly that particular day. So, where is he getting his "news"?

Here's the article/fact check: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/12/20/fact-check-san-franciscos-abraham-lincoln-hs-name-change-isnt-final/3940580001/

[PrincessPurrsALot]

Folks, As always, discuss the show.  Do not extrapolate into statements about entire groups of people or make personal political statements.  We're talking Bill and his guests here, not all political actions in the US. 

[heatherchandler]

On 2/7/2021 at 11:35 AM, iMonrey said:

For one thing it kind of sounded like he was saying millennials aren't afraid to hang out with friends because of COVID. Which is dumb, but there you go. But who knows how many millennials Bill actually knows and hangs out with enough to form an opinion of them. He's drawing a conclusion about an entire generation from a limited and particular sample.

But that sounds more like a California politically correct thing than a Democrat thing in general. Bill is ranting about something that is completely anecdotal rather than a widespread issue with a particular political party. When I think of Democrats I don't automatically think "oh, they rename schools." I never even heard of that until now. If they have a branding problem I don't think that's the main cause. It's just something Bill heard about and decided to bitch about. Mainly because he thinks bitching about Democrats makes him apolitical. Same reason he has right wing nutjobs on his show.

I don't agree.  It is not just a California politically correct thing.  Bill is ranting about a real issue.

 

20 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

It's not so much that stories like this necessarily make people become right wing or that the response is to go extreme in the other direction. It's that it makes some people feel like they're no longer in sync with the party. It's more about the left losing potential voters they might not have lost.

 

I will try this again..

I agree with you.  And I agree with Bill.

 

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, heatherchandler said:

I don't agree.  It is not just a California politically correct thing.  Bill is ranting about a real issue.

 

But wasn't the real issue he was ranting about just debunked above?

[heatherchandler]

7 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

But wasn't the real issue he was ranting about just debunked above?

Debunked?  The “fact check” article?
 

From the New Yorker-

Last month, San Francisco’s Board of Education voted, 6–1, to change the names of forty-four schools, including schools named after Abraham Lincoln and George Washington.

 

[heatherchandler]

10 hours ago, littlepaw said:

As what is typical with both Bill and right-wing media (not that they are mutually exclusive), is: They both take an isolated incident and blow it all out of proportion to the tune of "Crazy Democrats are doing this everywhere!"

The school renaming story has a glimmer of truth: It was ONE school, the renaming was proposed by ONE person, there are 44 other schools that are under consideration, but the most important component IMO is that the school has NOT been renamed, the voting on that hasn't happened yet. (And it's in the San Francisco area, an area that is known for being further to the left than many other places, but even the mayor thinks it's ridiculous to focus on renaming in the midst of a pandemic) The only place I believe this minor story has ever seen the light of day is in tabloids and Fox News, as far as I can tell. This is hardly the first time that Bill has glommed onto something like this, I hear him bring "the Democrats are out of control!" type things  up during the panel discussion, things I've never heard of before until I start googling and find, again, it's one minor incident that is presented as established policy of the koo-koo bananas, overly-politically-correct "liberals". Yet he hadn't heard of MJT's babbling about Jewish space lasers, which WAS being covered pretty thoroughly that particular day. So, where is he getting his "news"?

Here's the article/fact check: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/12/20/fact-check-san-franciscos-abraham-lincoln-hs-name-change-isnt-final/3940580001/

Its 44 schools and they have voted.  They haven’t been changed.  
 

Maybe he saw it in the Atlantic- this article says the same thing as his “rant”

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/02/san-francisco-renaming-spree/617894/
 

It’s all over the news, not just tabloids.  

Edited February 9, 2021 by heatherchandler

[Avaleigh]

15 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

But wasn't the real issue he was ranting about just debunked above?

At the top of the linked USA Today article:

"Editor’s note: On Jan. 26, San Francisco school board officials voted to change the name of Abraham Lincoln High School. Schools will have until April to offer new names, which will then be voted on by board members."

It seems like that article was written in December before they decided to follow through with the renaming in January. 

I also read that article from The Atlantic and wouldn't be surprised if Bill read it too. One of the interesting points the article makes is how much stuff like this ends up costing when the focus should be more about improving schools. The other point that I thought was worthy of discussion and that Bill touched on a bit in this episode was how they didn't really do in depth historical research on the figures they decided were no longer worthy. 

 

 

Edited February 9, 2021 by Avaleigh

[littlepaw]

10 hours ago, heatherchandler said:

Debunked?  The “fact check” article?
 

From the New Yorker-

Last month, San Francisco’s Board of Education voted, 6–1, to change the names of forty-four schools, including schools named after Abraham Lincoln and George Washington.

 

They voted on the motion to change the names of the 44 schools. They haven't voted on any of the proposed name changes yet. 

ETA: I'm going to end my part of this discussion, since the mods will probably determine (correctly) that we're going off on a tangent. 

Edited February 9, 2021 by littlepaw

[PrincessPurrsALot]

Discussing whether you agree or disagree with the renaming of schools is fine.  This falls under social issues.  Let's stay on this line of linking it to entire groups or parties.  Thanks!

[izabella]

On 2/7/2021 at 7:47 PM, Winston Wolfe said:

Not one of his strongest shows. A bit surprising since there is so much topical content to cover. I too didn't get the Jimmy Kimmell opening segment. It just seemed like a paid opportunity to hang out and they really didn't discuss anything of interest, other than Bill being a former minority owner of the New York Mets.

That bit was illuminating.  It partly explains why Bill has been so pissy about COVID restrictions - the lack of ballgames and hot dog sales was costing him a lot of money.

[IvySpice]

On 2/6/2021 at 12:31 PM, DXD526 said:

So Bill hangs out with people in their 30s because, why?

Because that's who he's fucking.

I hadn't heard about the Armie Hammer thing even though I try to follow sexual politics, so maybe this won't actually turn out to be a cancellation. But I'm totally with Bill on Aziz Ansari and similar stories. If someone is a terrible date, a selfish lover, or a kinky freak in their personal life, I don't think it ought to cost them their career. We need to distinguish cases of sexual harassment of business colleagues, which is always unacceptable, from what people do with consenting adults in their social lives.

[sistermagpie]

47 minutes ago, IvySpice said:

I hadn't heard about the Armie Hammer thing even though I try to follow sexual politics, so maybe this won't actually turn out to be a cancellation. But I'm totally with Bill on Aziz Ansari and similar stories. If someone is a terrible date, a selfish lover, or a kinky freak in their personal life, I don't think it ought to cost them their career. We need to distinguish cases of sexual harassment of business colleagues, which is always unacceptable, from what people do with consenting adults in their social lives.

Which it really didn't in Ansari's case. As soon as the article went up Bill started saying how he'd "lost his show" when no such thing had happened. His show had finished its season and Ansari himself said he didn't know when he'd do another. Bill immediately started claiming he was being treated like Harvey Weinstein when he wasn't at all--plenty of people saw the story as more of a jumping off point to talk about how people can treat each other rather than calling him a predator. And I believe he's still doing comedy where he's addressed the issue in a way that was pretty well received.