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S05.E01: Exodus

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Holden pleads with Fred Johnson to destroy the last sample of protomolecule; Naomi gets an important lead to her son; on Luna, Avasarala hunts for Marco Inaros.

Please keep your discussion to this episode only.  No book talk, thank you!

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I forgot that Amazon is known to drop their episodes "earlier" than announced, but luckily I heard about it today and was able to get started!  So happy the show is finally back!

Definitely won't delve into the books too much, but I wasn't surprised that the Rocinante gang is currently split up at the moment, and are off doing their own things.  Hopefully it won't last for too long, but it was cool seeing them branch out and hopefully they'll keep interacting with other characters (both old and new), and make things interesting!

Poor Naomi.  I totally get why she wants to find Felip and try and bring him back to the light, but she has no idea just how far into the darkness he seems to be at right now.  The opening scene really highlighted out brutal and cold he could be: to both his enemies (or, really, innocent bystanders) and his own people.  Marco clearly did a number on him and considering that Naomi still feels guilt for abandoning him, I can only imagine what her reaction will be when she sees what has become of him.

Heh, those "protection agency" folks/gang really picked the wrong guy to try and shakedown!  Amos don't got time for that shit!  Loved his scene with Chrisjen and how it ended with her still letting him go, even though she never really got an answer from him about if he is planning on killing anyone.  To be fair, with Amos, the answer is usually along the lines of "I don't plan too, but if killing needs to be done..."

I know most of this was shot before all the stuff about Cas Anver and his horrible behavior was revealed, but it was interesting that Alex's scenes were mainly him getting chewed out and having his shit called out: from both his ex and Bobbie.  But I'm guessing this is all going to lead to him and Bobbie teaming up, so hopefully I can be able to "separate the art from the artist" to enjoy their scenes.  I do like the glimpses of how badly Mars seems to be affected by all of the ring stuff.

Holden is still Holden, I see.  Likely going to be right about it being bad for Fred to hold onto the Protomolecule stuff, but still rubbing everyone the wrong way with his, well, approach to things.

Oh, hey, Monica's back!  She definitely seems to be onto something, but I still don't trust her.

Episode certainly went out with all of the CGI and effects.  Love the establishing shot of the Moon base.  Looks amazing!  Even if Chrisjen claims it's a shithole...

No Drummer update, but Cara Gee is still a regular, so hopefully she'll pop back up soon.

I wonder how long the wait will be for Marcos' grand plan to come into play?

Welcome back, show!

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7 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

I wonder how long the wait will be for Marcos' grand plan to come into play?

In the scene with Marco and the giant space map, each meteor had a countdown timer that is clearly visible, so my best "guess" is starting in a little over 12 days and ending around day 16.

Edited by AnimeMania
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Overwhelmed with joy to see the episodes dropped early. I literally dropped everything and watched all 3 episodes as soon as I saw they were up. My mind is a jumble after watching the episodes, so I will only be doing quick hit reactions for now.

  • Loved seeing Tycho Station again!
  • And Fred - oh how I love Fred Johnson! His dynamic with Holden is cool to watch.
  • Bobbie saying "Message the old lady" made me chuckle. Frankie Adams loos incredible this season!
  • Amos + Chrissy: "I'm a member of parliament, not your favorite stripper" I love these two together.
  • Speaking of Amos, his return to Baltimore has been great! Loved his scene with Charles. Both actors had me tearing up.
  • Damn, Chrisjen has really come down in the world since she lost the election. Good to see that a) she's not letting that stop her behind-the-scenes machinations, and b) she still has a fab wardrobe!
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15 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

I know most of this was shot before all the stuff about Cas Anver and his horrible behavior was revealed, but it was interesting that Alex's scenes were mainly him getting chewed out and having his shit called out: from both his ex and Bobbie.  But I'm guessing this is all going to lead to him and Bobbie teaming up, so hopefully I can be able to "separate the art from the artist" to enjoy their scenes.  I do like the glimpses of how badly Mars seems to be affected by all of the ring stuff.

Yeah I was thinking about that too 😆😆Everyone was just like "fuck off" to him. And they were totally right. So I don't know how I will feel if there comes scenes where we're supposed to be sympathetic to him.
I also assume he and Bobbie will be teaming up, since those are the only two named characters on Mars. And Alex didn't seem to be in a hurry to get back to the Roci.

About Mars being affected by the ring... I listened to the Churn last season. Which wasn't a guest podcast like when Syfy had the show, instead they were doing political analysis of the show. It was really interesting. One of the hosts had a complaint that he felt the brain drain was way to quick. In his opinion well off people on Mars wouldn't leave to be pioneers. They'd wait until there was well functioning cities set up. And I agree so that kinda took me a little bit out of everyone leaving. But now when I think about it I feel like maybe comparisions of Earth countries doesn't really apply to Mars. Since in many ways life on a pioneer colony is going to be much more comfortable than Mars.
Hope they brought some anti radiation meds though for eye algee and the like :P

BTW I hope we get some colony news through this season and next. It would be fun to get some tidbits about how they're all doing. I assume some are just going to fail catastrophically. Also, I'm assuming the PM-killers wont show up and kill everyone, but I might be wrong.

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Well off people are not wage slaves, they buy capital and hold onto it while its prices rise. So rich people on mars know their land holdings are going to be basically worthless as everybody leaves so they would be the first ones to cash out and go to a new planet taking with them skilled people to build a new home (paying their way and expecting much in return).

The people on mars put in a ton of work to make a non inhabited  planet livable because that is all they had. Now that you can quickly go to a new planet that doesn't need much work to fix up they would have left in a second if they could afford the trip.

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Amos shamelessly flirting with Chrisjen gives me life!

Please tell me I'm not the only who noticed Chrisjen checked out Amos's ass, and how he made sure she got a good look?

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  • Nice table-setting episode; well paced, shot, and acted.  (I'm a book reader, so I know where the show is heading.)
  • The visuals were stunning.
  • Hey, look - Klyden is masquerading as an OPA bigwig! (Orville humor, sorry.)
  • Bobbi has a stick up her ass, but it was appropriate for her conversation with Alex.
  • Amos and Chrisjen together always delivers.
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Had we seen much of Luna before this season?

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Amos shamelessly flirting with Chrisjen gives me life!

OMG - they are so good together!

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Please tell me I'm not the only who noticed Chrisjen checked out Amos's ass, and how he made sure she got a good look?

I missed this, but it's a really good reason to go back and rewatch the episode 🙂

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Does the map of Earth in Chrisjen's office look a bit off? Like India is missing or enlarged?

Omg I love Murder Snuggles. "You can be both". 

Of all the sci fi shows our there  this show feels the most real.

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There were some beautiful space scenes. Gorgeous sweeping panoramas.

”You can be both.”  I love, love Amos and Chrisjen Chrissie together.

It’s sad to see Mars in decline after they had been such a strong, optimistic community.

The hallways where Alex walked look just like our local mall. 

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9 hours ago, UnknownK said:

Well off people are not wage slaves, they buy capital and hold onto it while its prices rise. So rich people on mars know their land holdings are going to be basically worthless as everybody leaves so they would be the first ones to cash out and go to a new planet taking with them skilled people to build a new home (paying their way and expecting much in return).

The people on mars put in a ton of work to make a non inhabited  planet livable because that is all they had. Now that you can quickly go to a new planet that doesn't need much work to fix up they would have left in a second if they could afford the trip.

I agree this is where it would go eventually but I doubt it would be that quick. Compare it to say the fossil fuel industry at present. Everyone know it's just a matter of time before fossil fuels is history. Doesn't stop rich people to hold on to their fossil fuel stocks and prospect for more. Cause they know people need it during the transition. I feel it would be same for Mars. Not everyone can leave right away and not everyone wants to do early colony life. I'm assuming only a fraction on the Martian people have left. Those who haven't been allowed to leave are still potential customers. I feel like rich Martians would still stick around in their Martian pent house, while making sure to send some underlings to new systems of course, and invest in various companies staking claims. 

Talking about Mars gets me thinking about the Martian conspiracy. It seems there was more than money motivation for selling that stealth tech to belters. What does Mars have to gain if Earth is attacked? I don't know. 

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1 hour ago, Holmbo said:

I agree this is where it would go eventually but I doubt it would be that quick. Compare it to say the fossil fuel industry at present. Everyone know it's just a matter of time before fossil fuels is history. Doesn't stop rich people to hold on to their fossil fuel stocks and prospect for more. Cause they know people need it during the transition. I feel it would be same for Mars. Not everyone can leave right away and not everyone wants to do early colony life. I'm assuming only a fraction on the Martian people have left. Those who haven't been allowed to leave are still potential customers. I feel like rich Martians would still stick around in their Martian pent house, while making sure to send some underlings to new systems of course, and invest in various companies staking claims. 

Talking about Mars gets me thinking about the Martian conspiracy. It seems there was more than money motivation for selling that stealth tech to belters. What does Mars have to gain if Earth is attacked? I don't know. 

Rich people hold onto fossil fuel stock because we will be using fossil fuel forever. Coal will probably be a thing of the past because it is so dirty and other fuel is cheaper, but you have to look at oil for what it is and this is and that is energy on demand. Solar and wind cannot be stored because battery density for long term storage does not exist and won't for a very very long time. Nuclear power is in decline because of the costs to build a facility not because it isn't the best way to get energy on demand.

Anyway the people on Mars have spent every dime they had to make a navy to defend against earth and to terraform a planet so their kids can live in it tomorrow. The navy which was the pride of mars seems to be getting dismantled while the terraforming is DOA. People who have to pay for the air they breath (same goes with belters) would jump for the chance to visit a paradise that they can own a chunk of land with no money down (you basically mark off some land and own it just by showing up). Anyone with  skills or who are young and strong enough to build are gone as soon as a ship can take them (assuming they can sell enough of their current stuff to afford the price for the trip). Sure the rich can send underlings to grab some land for them but those underlings don't really need to follow orders anymore once they get there and build something, they will just form their own government and keep it all so the rich have to go NOW and make sure THEY are the new government. It reminds me of the Europeans rushing to control the new world and how that ended up (the locals all kicked them out in time). Instead of 100's of years to create a new empire with the tech available it would take a decade since those planets seem untouched and not mined out.

From all the going out of business signs and advertising for techs it seems like most of the mars locals have left. I would expect a large exodus from earth as well to lighten the load and to claim as many planets or parts of planets as possible. 

Mars reminds me of Russia but without oil, the only thing worth stealing and selling would be the cutting edge military tech before it gets obsolete. 

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I kept thinking about the Martian commander who was killed at the beginning of the first season.  She was so proud of her ship and her crew and her homeland.  How sad she would have been to see the glory of Mars crumbling away.

This is an interesting article about Amos's shower scene.  I agree that focusing on his reaction afterward rather than the action was both surprising and useful in pointing out how much his character has changed.  The best part of The Expanse has always been the relationship between characters.  It's going to be hard watching them scattered across the solar system for as long as they are separated this season.  Other shows suffer when their ensemble cast is broken up, I hope this doesn't suffer the same problems.

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1 hour ago, Haleth said:

I kept thinking about the Martian commander who was killed at the beginning of the first season.  She was so proud of her ship and her crew and her homeland.  How sad she would have been to see the glory of Mars crumbling away.

 

I wonder if Mars was originally settled with the nobel goal of a post-capitalist society, with money not being in control of everything. At the start of the show, Mars was rightfully proud of how every Martian had work and a sense of purpose. Now Mars is looking more and more like Earth, with unemployment and hardship.

How a new society becomes like the society they left or were oppressed by is one of the central themes of the show.

That shower scene was amazing.

Edited by marinw
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I have no clue why, but I thought that the new season dropped Friday, so getting it now is like an early Christmas present! Its great to see the show back, and while this was clearly a place setting episode where we check in with everyone and set up the major plots of the season, it still had a lot of great character interactions and set pieces. I like seeing everyone growing as characters off in their own plots, but I hope that the whole Rocinante crew is back together soon, I always love this show the most when everyone is together. Everyone being all over the universe does at least let us get to see a lot of the reoccurring characters, like Fred and Monica. 

Its sad to see Mars in decline, they were such a proud and even idealistic society where everyone really did seem to be committed to their worlds future and everyone had a part in that, even if their society also had some real issues as well. I don't really blame people for wanting to go and explore a new world where they can actually see the outdoors instead of just knowing that future generations might, but its still sad to see Mars and its dream fading away. Neither Bobby are Alex are having a great time there either, so I am guessing they will go off and have a subplot until Alex hooks back up with the Rocinante. Maybe Bobby can come? 

That guy really choose to shake down the wrong room. Should be interesting seeing Amos back in Detroit, we might even get some more solid information about his backstory besides little bites. I always love Amos/Chrisjen scenes, those two just play off each other so well. "You can be both." The shower scene was really intense, the lingering shot of Amos after the fight was really interesting. I wonder how often Amos has responded to people asking for him with "They were alive when I left them, I swear." 

Chrisjen might be down for now, but she is at least looking fabulous as always. Things might be looking good for Earth now with the new domestic policies, but when shit starts getting real with Marco and his terrorists, I wonder if they will giving her a call. She is definitely a woman you want around and on your side in a crisis. 

Poor Naomi, she will be so devastated when she realizes how far gone her son is. She is miserable just thinking of him possibly being touched by Marco's darkness, when it seems like he is already right there with him, coldly executing unarmed civilians and even leaving one of his own guys to die a gruesome death. At least she has Holden, who is busy doing Holden stuff, dealing with weird cosmic stuff and planning for whatever mess is happening next. 

The visuals on this show are so stunning, every location looks unique and filled with world building details, and space itself looks so beautiful.  

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I never got the feeling Mars was a great society. I thought it was like Sparta, where everyone had an obligation to help keep the society strong but in a very specific, directed way. But they weren't big on diverging form that single path, and it needed to be done that way because it was the only way the society could turn into the society they had designed.  

The reason Mars died was that the Ring opened the possibilities of doing thing in a way different than the ways it had been done. You could make your own way, your own decisions. They didn't need the promise of Mars anymore -- they could breathe real air, swim in real water without having to do it the way they told you. 

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Chrissie and Amos - the couple I never knew I wanted.  That whole scene was a lovely, early Christmas present.

Mars did look really good.  All the space scenes were  stunning.  

What's happening with Mars reminded me of what happened with the Soviet Union collapsed.  "Who's looking after the nuclear stockpile?"  The fact that this is something Chrissy is doing on her own and not addressing directly as she would if she was still in power - doesn't bode well at all.  This should not be a side project with one aide doing the investigating.  That does not cut it.

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The more I think about it the more I realize what a dick Alex was this episode. I didn't realize fully at first cause I thought I was just mad at the actor. He shows up at his ex wife's door with no heads up and without knowing at all if it's a good time for them. 

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Seems like people travel across town or the space station just to have evasive conversations for 5 minutes and then leave. Don't they have Belta-Zoom-da in the Expanse?

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Meh start to the season. But like others I loved seeing Tyco Station again and Fred Johnson. I enjoyed the scene between him and Holden. 

I understand Naomi’s reasoning, but it’s unreasonable. She’s not her son’s mother anymore. She really never was considering how young he was when she abandoned him. He doesn’t know her. He was raised by his father and is his son. She won’t be able to save him. He’s already a monster. 

Bobbie going off on Alex was a...well dam moment. LOL. But it was truthful. The wife’s smackdown too. The only way Alex will be able to rebuild a relationship with his family is if he sticks around which I doubt he’ll do. The last scene with him where he observed all the businesses going out of business and spaces for rent was sad. Mars will inevitably become a desolate Inner planet ghetto. All the planning and work the Martians spent decades doing destroyed by the greener pastures that are the rings. Very unfortunate. 

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I cannot figure out what they hell the bad guy (Naomi's ex) is up to.  It's the same problem I had with him last season.  What is the point of painting asteroids with stealth technology paint and then throwing them at the Earth?  Is he an extortionist who is going to demand something in return for telling the earth's where the stealth asteroids are?  Is he a Belter radical who just hates the earth and wants to destroy it?  I don't get it.  So that's a problem for me because, unlike last season, his plot line seems to be the main one.

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On 12/19/2020 at 4:07 PM, Enero said:

Meh start to the season.

The CGI space landscape visuals were nice. 
..But perhaps I am not enough of a superfan to be giddy just to see the main characters again and have them exposition their way into separate stories. 

On 12/17/2020 at 7:15 AM, Haleth said:

Other shows suffer when their ensemble cast is broken up, I hope this doesn't suffer the same problems.

I am hoping that the crew is not kept separate for the majority of this season.  Some of the stories already seem a bit blah ... not  looking forward to Holden running around Tycho station having conversations with various people. 

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On 12/19/2020 at 9:39 PM, WatchrTina said:

Is he [Marco] a Belter radical who just hates the earth and wants to destroy it?  I don't get it.  So that's a problem for me because, unlike last season, his plot line seems to be the main one.

Quoting myself because I may have found an answer.  The link below is to a nice video that summarizes the prior four seasons.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zow96B7o_1s

In it, the narrator implies that yes, Marco does hate Earth -- presumably because he sees it as the source of all the suffering he witnessed growing up -- suffering caused by the scarcity of resources in the Belt.  I guess the modern day analogy is radicalized people who bomb civilian targets in other countries.  In their minds it is justified because they are trying to punish "the oppressor" and furthermore they are doing it to try to gain power and "respect" by showing that they can hurt a superpower.  In the Expanse, Earth & Mars are the superpowers and The Belt craves power and respect.  I guess the situation is not all that different from earlier seasons when both the Belt and Mars wanted to get their hands on the Proto-molecule once they realized Earth had it -- they sought "peace through superior fire-power" (a.k.a. peace through the threat of mutually assured destruction.)

But if "Belter Rights" is what has been driving Marco, then his role in the universe lost much of its meaning when the gates opened because now people who are unhappy with their lives in the Belt can join colony ships and go through the gate.  If their low-gravity bodies won't tolerate life on one of the new planets they could work in new space-based businesses transporting and supplying settlers via the Ring. They are no longer limited to the jobs available in the Belt.  As such, their feelings of oppression at the hands of the two superpowers may be greatly diminished.  In a situation like that, what is Marcos' role?  What does a guy with a whole bunch of stealth "bombs" do with those bombs when the "cause" he's been fighting for begins to evaporate?  Clearly HE doesn't think his purpose has gone away due to the opening of the Ring.  In fact, I'm going to guess that this plot (setting up stealthy asteroids to threaten Earth) has been building for a LONG time and that it began well before the rings opened up.  So as far as HE is concerned it is full-steam-ahead with his goal of changing the balance of power in in THIS solar system.  But given that the balance of power has already been affected by the rings (e.g., the societal impacts on Mars that we have already been shown), Marcos' plan has become increasingly pointless.  Maybe THAT is going to be the overarching theme of this season -- that a zealot without a purpose is a very dangerous thing.

Edited by WatchrTina
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Even for someone who has read the books, this show can be quite dense and there's a lot of plot to remember. It doesn't get any easier when all the characters are branching off into their own plots! The recap of season four did a really effective job of giving us a nice, neat reminder of where everyone is, and what's been set up.

Unfortunately, they spent most of this episode continuing to set all that up. 

Looks like Filip is a real chip off the old block. The Marco block, not the Naomi one. Right down to the fake populist bullshit. The trope of a mother saying she knows the child that she actually doesn't know at all is a bit tired. She has no clue who or what Filip is, and no reason to believe he would have even the slightest interest in having a mother again. From Filip's point of view, she would be every bit the deadbeat parent that Alex has been.

I still really, really hate that chest tattoo that Naomi has. It's truly ugly. Terrible location and a crappy design. No idea why anyone thought that was a good idea.

Looks like Holden is going to be stuck with issues that are far bigger than him, again. System wide political upheavals and the collapse of society... nothing major.

Alex seemed isolated and a little bit sad. I guess that without the Roci and the rest of the crew, he feels a little weightless and drifting. I like that the show isn't shying away from showing what a deadbeat father and husband he was.

Bobbie working in what seems to be a semi-official capacity for Avasarala is cool. Long past time for her to stop resisting... sadly she's stopped resisting a few other things too. She seems really bitter, and Alex's optimism was always going to piss her off.

I'm really impatient to see what Amos is going to be doing this season, so this episode was frustrating. Up until he walked into Avasarala's office:

"You look like shit."

"You look amazing."

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THE GOOD

On second viewing I was glad to see that there were signs in the showers on Amos’ ship  that said “no cameras”.  As a result I can just barely hand-wave away the fact that Amos isn’t arrested for beating down the extortionists in the shower.  Even Amos suspected there might be some ramifications for that, saying to the escort sent by Avasarala, “They were all alive when I walked out.”

 

This exchange:

Avasarala:  “You look like shit.”

Amos:  “You look amazing.  What are you doing here?  I thought you were like Queen of Earth.”

 

Ooooh, watch Avasarala pour Amos that drink.  She has to tap the bottom of the decanter to get it going and it flows out like custard.  Love the subtle reminders of the low gravity environment.

 

This exchange:

Amos:  "You and I have very different life experiences Chrissie."

Avasarala:  “Don’t call me that.  I’m a Member of Parliament.  Not your favorite stripper."

Amos:  “You could be both.”

 

THE BAD

I understand that the scientists on the space station in the pre-credits scene are studying a group of strange, rogue asteroids they’ve just discovered and that they are getting anomalous readings because the original asteroid (before it broke up) was coated in stealth technology paint. So this is one of Marcos’ asteroid bombs and presumably it was pulled off target by the same gravitational forces that broke it apart.  Filip (That Little Shit) kills the scientists and takes the data core in order to protect the secret that there are stealth asteroids zooming towards Earth.  I get all that.  But given that – where did the batch of asteroids that destroyed the space station come from?  It looked like the same debris that the scientists were studying.  But if they were studying it, then surely they understood its trajectory.  Yet we saw no concern by them – only excitement and curiosity.  That tells me the group of rocks they were so interested in was NOT on a collision course with their station.  As such, the destruction of the space station made no sense to me.  Surely there were not TWO groups of rogue asteroids in that area.

 

THE UGLY

I sure hope it is NOT the intention of the writers that I am EVER supposed to care about That Little Shit Filip.  His cold-blooded murder of those scientists on the space station at the very start of the episode was brutal and I hope he dies screaming.  (Sorry Naomi).

 

UNANSWERED QUESTIONS 

Can somebody remind me how Alex came to be in possession of the razorback?  I seem to recall that it was being flown remotely from the Roci at one point (I also have a vague recollection if it being used to rescue Avasarala, but too much time has passed for me to remember all the ins and outs of prior seasons).  Should we assume that Holden has somehow kept custody of it all this time and just recently loaned it to Alex so that he could visit his family on Mars while the Roci was in dry-dock?

 

There is a memorial to the Augustin Gamarra (“516 souls lost”) on the moon.  Amos walks past a “billboard” for it and then we see what looks like a virtual projection of it on the surface of the moon.  Are we supposed to know what that is?  It doesn’t ring any bells with me.

Edited by WatchrTina
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@WatchrTina
the AG was the ship Naomi unwilling helped blew up before she left Marco. I didn't remember the name either, had to read others comments about it. I thought it was the Belters transport Avasarala caused to blow up last season

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22 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

I sure hope it is NOT the intention of the writers that I am EVER supposed to care about That Little Shit Filip.  His cold-blooded murder of those scientists on the space station at the very start of the episode was brutal and I hope he dies screaming.  (Sorry Naomi).

Oy! That title belongs to Diego, (RIP?). The cold blooded murder is essentially how Holden dealt with the humanitarians' ship he destroyed in Season 2 Godspeed: "for the greater good".

Everybody has blood on their hands in the Expanse; gee, it's like they're all just caught up in some kind of "Churn".

Edited by Eulipian 5k · Reason: Seasoning
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1 hour ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Oy! That title belongs to Diego, (RIP?). The cold blooded murder is essentially how Holden dealt with the humanitarians' ship he destroyed in Season 2 Godspeed: "for the greater good".

Everybody has blood on their hands in the Expanse; gee, it's like they're all just caught up in some kind of "Churn".

Fair point. With 35 seconds to go, there wasn't any way to rescue the  guy without additional casualties. Though, unlike Holden, he didn't seem to have any struggle or regrets with the idea.

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2 hours ago, Eulipian 5k said:

The cold blooded murder is essentially how Holden dealt with the humanitarians' ship he destroyed in Season 2 Godspeed: "for the greater good".

It's been a long time but wasn't the humanitarian ship contaminated with the proto-molecule disease -- or wasn't it on it's way to try and pick up people who were already infected (despite being told to NOT do that)?  And didn't Holden destroy it to stop them from spreading the contagion to the rest of the solar system?  Thats not cold-blooded murder.  That's a horrible ethical dilemma. Holden had to either take action or do nothing and both choices would have horrible outcomes, so he choose the action that would result in the fewest deaths.

What Marco & his crew did (by shooting the scientists who spotted the broken stealth asteroid) -- THAT was cold-blooded murder.  And when those asteroids hit the earth, that will be cold-blooded MASS murder.  

Holden reacted to a horrible situation by making the choice that would minimize the casualties from a disaster.  

Marco CREATED a horrible situation, deliberately, and seeks to maximize the casualties resulting from it.

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Yes, there's a world of ethical difference between what Holden did in Godspeed and what TLS and his crew did here. Holden ordered the destruction of the Marasmus after pleading with the crew to turn away from Eros before they get infected (at least one of them had already died on Eros). Holden killed the crew to save millions and was devastated in doing so while TLS and his crew had no qualms about killing innocents in order to make sure they could kill millions more. Also: Holden's definition of the greater good includes Earthers, Martians and Belters while TLS greater good is much narrower - Belters, and only Belters who follow Daddy.

Edited by MissLucas
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On 12/17/2020 at 5:15 AM, Haleth said:

This is an interesting article about Amos's shower scene.  I agree that focusing on his reaction afterward rather than the action was both surprising and useful in pointing out how much his character has changed.  

The article does spoil exactly who this women that just died is to Amo's. Unless I missed the dialog and Amo did say who exactly had died and who they were to him. However, I thought all he said was a women that was important to him when he was young had died and he was going back to take care of things.

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In this show we have seen all of our heroes do terrible things:

  • Holden destroyed the pointedly unarmed, Marasmus.
  • Fred Johnson & Anderson Station 
  • The Edward Israel in Season 4
  • Even Naomi has a hand in blood as we saw in the Augustin Gamarra memorial

TLS and his rocks was just as caught up and lied to as all of the above but we see him as a murderer.

As we saw with Clarissa in season three, you’ll see the “hero” in a different light when your family is involved or killed. Murtry was also an example of how you can hold everyone involved as complicit in mass murder regardless of what we the audience know.

So, who, or what is “the bad guy” in this universe?

 

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On 12/17/2020 at 1:26 AM, Holmbo said:

I agree this is where it would go eventually but I doubt it would be that quick. Compare it to say the fossil fuel industry at present.

Or compare it with the discovery and colonization of the "new world". The first to go were those who were the most adventurous or those who had nothing to lose and a better life to gain. I agree that the wealthy elites would be in no hurry to get on board the Olive Blossom.

On 12/22/2020 at 11:35 AM, WatchrTina said:

But if "Belter Rights" is what has been driving Marco, then his role in the universe lost much of its meaning when the gates opened because now people who are unhappy with their lives in the Belt can join colony ships and go through the gate.  If their low-gravity bodies won't tolerate life on one of the new planets they could work in new space-based businesses transporting and supplying settlers via the Ring. They are no longer limited to the jobs available in the Belt.  As such, their feelings of oppression at the hands of the two superpowers may be greatly diminished.

But this also implies that The Belt will diminish and fall on hard times as Mars has begun to do. Belters can seek a better life in the "new worlds" (plural) rather than squabble over the crumbs that fall from the tables of Earth and Mars. Marco's plan for The Belt to become the new power in the system are meaningless.

 

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3 hours ago, Netfoot said:

Belters can seek a better life in the "new worlds" (plural) rather than squabble over the crumbs that fall from the tables of Earth and Mars. Marco's plan for The Belt to become the new power in the system are meaningless.

 

Belter physiology has adapted to life in low gravity. While they can adapt it's a huge challenge and not all can manage (remember the problems Naomi had on Illus despite training and drugs) and not all want to.

Just now, MissLucas said:

Belter physiology has adapted to life in low gravity. While they can adapt to life on a planetary surface with a gravity well it's a huge challenge and not all can manage (remember the problems Naomi had on Illus despite training and drugs) and not all want to.

 

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9 hours ago, MissLucas said:

Belter physiology has adapted to life in low gravity. While they can adapt it's a huge challenge and not all can manage (remember the problems Naomi had on Illus despite training and drugs) and not all want to.

Different planetts have different gravity. A Belter would do better on a smaller planet than a larger one, and perphas there are some little smaller than-Mars-Sized worlds out there.

Are there Belters living and working on Mars? Was that ever addressed? It would be difficult but maybe doable. Mars' gravity is 48% that of Earth:

https://phys.org/news/2016-12-strong-gravity-mars.html#:~:text=On top that%2C the gravity,only 38 kg on Mars.

 

Edited by marinw

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AFAIK there are no Belters on Mars. And yes, it's doable as the settlers on Illus proved but with difficulties. The question whether there are planets with low gravity and an environment hospitable to humans is at that point of little interest to many Belters. This not just an issue of physiology but also one of psychology. Belters have developed their own culture and technology (remember Prax and his pride in his studies) based on living in low-gravity environments and off-planets. Leaving that behind means returning to a way of life they have become accustomed to despise - in reaction to the Inners looking down on Belters.

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Good points @MissLucas. I think the lack of Belters on Mars may have as much to do with poiltics as with gravity. Beyong the Ring, some little planets may have more atmosphere than others. Most Planets have moons, and a few of those Moons may have usable atmospheres.

I think many Belters would make every effort to settle on suitable planets, as we saw last season. Perhaps some smart Belter doctors are working on new treatments. Even some Belters must realize that culture in something that must evolve over time if your society is to grow and thrive.

 

Edited by marinw

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On 12/27/2020 at 8:43 AM, MissLucas said:

Belters have developed their own culture and technology [...] based on living in low-gravity environments and off-planets. Leaving that behind means returning to a way of life they have become accustomed to despise - in reaction to the Inners looking down on Belters.

They could still 'emigrate' to a new system via the ring. They just need to identify one that has a large asteroid belt. They could continue to live in low-gravity non-planetary environments, and at the same time be beyond the influence of the 'inners' they eschew. In fact, they could probably move more easily than anyone else, since they could take their entire living environments with them whole and intact. 

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No one noticed the mention of a "Space Oddity" in the opening sequence? Where's Bowie Base 1 on Luna?

Edited by Eulipian 5k · Reason: Bowie Base 1 is on Mars!
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So the theme of this season is wanting to go home but being too late? Of trying to recapture the past and it always being forever out of reach? That's a sad theme but if there's any show I trust to do it justice, it's this one.

On 12/16/2020 at 2:51 PM, thuganomics85 said:

I know most of this was shot before all the stuff about Cas Anver and his horrible behavior was revealed, but it was interesting that Alex's scenes were mainly him getting chewed out and having his shit called out: from both his ex and Bobbie.

Oh God I've missed this... what is it?

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6 hours ago, AudienceofOne said:

Oh God I've missed this... what is it?

There is discussion in the Media Topic about it - you can talk about it there.

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Why the aspect ratio change on Luna? Any theories?

Have they done that before and I've just forgotten?

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Lol, Amos was like, "I said no insurance! Fcuk around and find out."

Chrissie. Amos ain't got no respect. Chrisjen probably wasn't even called that when she was a child.

Quote

Murder Snuggles. "You can be both". 

Bet Amos would turn Chrisjen out, given the opportunity. And on some level you know she's at least considered it.

Ditto comments upthread, I'm having a hard time watching Alex now.

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