S15.E20: Carry On (Series Finale)

[McKinley]

Well, I feel like these final episodes encapsulated all that was best, and worst, about Supernatural.  Seems fair enough.

I am really, really glad that they fixed heaven.  I was prepared to be super upset if they did not do that.  Having Cass in charge there is perfection.

Did not like the ending, though.  My personal ending for the boys is this:  I can stay with the writers' vision up through Jack taking over as god, and fixing heaven.  Jack seals heaven and hell so demons and angels may no longer come to Earth.  Jack wipes out all of the monsters on Earth.  So the boys have literally saved the entire world, forever.  The boys are then free to move on with "normal" lives, explore new jobs, new passions, build families.  Given how male-centric this whole universe has been, I imagine Dean raising a whole gaggle of beautiful little daughters. The boys grow old together, enjoying one another's families.  The end.

Thank you to the cast and crew for the ride!  It's been fun!

[Castiels Cat]

Really good treatment.

https://www.vox.com/culture/21578512/supernatural-series-finale-recap-review-what-happened-dean-destiel-memes

[Castiels Cat]

50 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

I don't mind that the vamps were trying to kill Dean or both guys - yeah, that's what they do. No, for me the cruelest cut was that Drabb went above and beyond in writing this scene to portray Dean as being out of step, incompetent, and easily overpowered the entire time. This wasn't Dean Winchester at all. He was so completely OOC here that it's hard not to see the set up as vindictive on the part of the writer.

If Dean had to die on this hunt - he didn't, but if that's the way Drabb wanted it - then he could have put his personal feelings aside and given the character an IN CHARACTER demise in this damn series finale. At least let Dean look like he knew what he was doing before the ridiculous impaling - allow him to take out a couple of the vamps, and not give essentially every kill to only Sam. I mean, good grief, we even had to endure a Red Meat redux, as if that dumb episode wasn't embarrassing enough the first time around. But no, Drabb wanted a direct replay with a concussed Sam jumping up as the uber hunter and killing the vamps Dean was apparently too incompetent to do himself.

Drabb could have portrayed Dean as the hunter everyone knew him to be for the last 15 years. He could have portrayed the character as a hero - he chose not to. I don't know who I was watching in that fight scene that apparently took three days to shoot, but it wasn't Dean Winchester of Supernatural.

That's why I will always hate this senseless death - it was purposely inglorious, as if killing Dean literally wasn't enough for Drabb. He had to be insulting about it. That wasn't necessary to his weak ass plot.

#DeanWinchesterDeservedBetter

Yep. This is why I am so angry. In antiquity they used to score or chip away the faces o. Reliefs and knock of the heads of statues to erase the memories of a previous ruler. This is what Dabb has done and this is what he has been doing for a while.

It's not the first time it's happened. It happened in  in s 5 too through 6-7.

I don't know why they denigrate and destroy  their iconic character. The show would have died without Dean and Dean's relationships to other. Characters.

I really hope that Jensen didn't miss out on too many opportunities keeping them all employed.

[Castiels Cat]

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Here's why I think Dean's death was shitty. It wasn't an accident. I think the vampire knew it was there. A vampire did kill Dean, by intentionally slamming Dean onto giant nail/hook thing. I hate it.

That big fat vampire is Andrew Dabb. I hate it too. Rebar does not belong in a barn... the idjit.

[foxfreakinmulder]

I have to sit on this for awhile and let my emotions settle down. My first thought when Dean died was F*#K YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! show. So I'm going to give it a few days and see if that changes.

I will say I did like the music.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Bobcatkitten said:

It seems those who hated it fall into these categories:

Cas stans

Those who didn't want Dean to die AT ALL

Those who didn't like the way he died. 

Seems Sam fans loved it. 

The biggest Sam stan of all loved it: Jared. Of course his fans are going to love that he got his long life, and a wife and son. Really the only thing they have to bitch about is the fright wig and bad makeup.

I can't remember if this has been mentioned (apologies if so), but the papers on Dean's desk...  For some reason I thought it was a will. Then I saw people saying it was a job application, but somebody with a higher-res tv than mine have identified it as a job contract - one that was already signed. Dean was going to have a job.

[gonzosgirrl]

52 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

That big fat vampire is Andrew Dabb. I hate it too. Rebar does not belong in a barn... the idjit.

It's just not so. It's not like it was a piece of rebar sticking out of concrete. They were hooks for something and there was more than one. The other has heavy duty chain hanging from it. Maybe they used the barn for more than just animals. Dangerous placement for sure, but not out of the realm of possibility that they are there.

[Cindy McLennan]

3 minutes ago, foxfreakinmulder said:

I have to sit on this for awhile and let my emotions settle down. My first thought when Dean died was F*#K YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! show. So I'm going to give it a few days and see if that changes.

I will say I did like the music.

Yeah, my feelings keep shifting. I tweeted out a GIF of Bobby saying, "Balls" as I was watching (at the point Dean died), but I didn't even hate it. It's hard for me to separate my feelings about the show ending (I'm sad, even though I think it's well past time, because I enjoyed it more often than not for 15 years) from my feelings about how the show ended.

I fully expected both boys to die. I fully expected a heavenly reunion with their loved ones (and think we would have gotten more of that, were it not for the pandemic).

If you had told me one died first, I would have known it was Dean, and not because I think the writers hate the character or Jensen, or favor Sam/Jared over Dean/Jensen, but I've been watching how they do things for long enough to predict what they'll do in a given situation.

My biggest feeling about 15.20 is that it was mostly unnecessary. It was like tying a bow on a bow. 15.19 ended the story in a perfect place (for me). I still loved Dean's final speech in the barn, though. Both Jensen and Jared were wonderful.

[Katy M]

25 minutes ago, Cindy McLennan said:

My biggest feeling about 15.20 is that it was mostly unnecessary. It was like tying a bow on a bow. 15.19 ended the story in a perfect place (for me). I still loved Dean's final speech in the barn, though. Both Jensen and Jared were wonderful.

I HATED 19 and loved 20, so it was necessary for me.🙂

[Res]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

The biggest Sam stan of all loved it: Jared. 

Right. This, the stupid OOC death and how Dean Winchester has been demeaned in the past years have me more than happy that he is separating himself from the show and stricking out in his own way, by himself! I only wish that they could have allowed Dean to do the same.

But I knew in order to give Sam his happy ordinary life, they would have to kill Dean and I'm glad it was Dean that died instead of Sam because I don't think Dean could've survived the survivor's guilt. I also knew that if Dean was dead, Sam would go and do his "normal" life. Luckily, he didn't have to hit another dog.

I hate how this implies that Gluck was the one that gave Dean his specialness since Sam didn't seem to have any problems killing all the vamps himselp. Apparently "plot armour" only affected Dean. That sucks on a whole new level. Add to the fact that apparently Charlie, Donna and others who had barely been hunting were apparently better than Dean without "plot armour", it's a total disgrace. 

That being said, Jensen did knock it out of the park but the dialog had my eyes rolling after a few minutes with all the Sam piping. But the "Tell me it's okay" got me. I had to say the same thing to my brother who was ravaged by cancer a few years ago. Within a year of the diagnosis, he was a shell of who he used to be. It killed part of me to tell him to let go, that it was ok.

I having the UO of wishing it was someone, almost anyone other than Bobby that Dean met in Heaven. There were too many  "tough love" and "you're not a person" speeches from him directed at Dean for me to be happy about that. I would've preferred some people he saved, Rufus, Pamela or even Ash. And for Dean to do nothing in Heaven but drive until he finds Sam, that's a shipping group's dream, eck.

If even Heaven cannot give Dean autonomy, he really is in Hell. Dean is not that one dimensional except under Drabb and shippers who seem to have taken over the show. All that driving could have been replaced by Dean just arriving on the bridge to get Sam and tell him about all the people he's reconnected with in Heaven and taking Sam to see them. But, no, ugh!

I can't wait for Jensen to get as far away from the show as possible. It didn't do him any favors under the past few years. I'll still watch the old episodes for the Dean I grew to love but I'm stopping before the S11 finale because that was crap too. 

All of this is JMHO, of course. But I hate it. I might watch Jensen's dying scene again but not anytime soon. 

Edited November 22, 2020 by Res

[roctavia]

1 hour ago, Res said:

But I knew in order to give Sam his happy ordinary life, they would have to kill Dean and I'm glad it was Dean that died instead of Sam because I don't think Dean could've survived the survivor's guilt. I also knew that if Dean was dead, Sam would go and do his "normal" life. Luckily, he didn't have to hit another dog.

I do think they made it clear that Sam didn't have a super happy, wonderful life without Dean. Sure, he was able to find love and have a family, but all of those scenes to me focused on that something was missing, that he couldn't enjoy his life to the fullest without Dean, and I was okay with that. Dean was too important in his life to not have left a big hole. 

 

[roctavia]

I think the heaven piece is tricky, and while I'm glad it was "fixed" or rebuilt or whatever... and clearly not something that they have to explain all of the details on.... but just being a place of endless happiness sounds good on paper, but without death, life has little purpose. 

Spoilers for The Good Place 

Spoiler

Like we saw in the good place- heaven gets boring if you get everything you want and there's no end in sight, so I don't think supernatural heaven can be just endless perfection, dream it and it appears kind of thing. I don't know what a better answer would be...

I'd like to imagine Dean would end up finding some purpose in heaven once he's reunited with Cas and the rest of his family.... you know another apocalypse will come along and they'll have to hop on down to earth or something (maybe a new dimension) to help out.... 

[ahrtee]

24 minutes ago, roctavia said:

I'd like to imagine Dean would end up finding some purpose in heaven once he's reunited with Cas and the rest of his family.... you know another apocalypse will come along and they'll have to hop on down to earth or something (maybe a new dimension) to help out.... 

I kind of like the idea that Heaven, Hell and Purgatory are now all under some kind of common (or at least, kinder, gentler) rule.  After all, with Rowena in charge of Hell, and Cas as (apparently) the second-in-command/acting leader of Heaven (since Jack didn't want to bother with anything), who's in charge of Purgatory?  The boys killed Eve.  

So my idea would be to open Purgatory as a place for hunters to go when they get bored.  Dean actually enjoyed the purity of hunting without any pesky morality issues, and I assume the monsters there got something out of hunting others, too.  So everyone can be true to their own nature and, even if someone gets killed, well, it's a do-over, since they're all dead already.  😊

 

Edited November 22, 2020 by ahrtee

[DeeDee79]

26 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

who's in charge of Purgatory?  The boys killed Eve.  

In my mind it's Benny. He can't be dead! 😩

[jewel21]

Not happy with Dean dying. They should have ended the series with the previous episode. That was a happy ending for both of them. 

Also, I wanted to see the dog up in heaven, too, when it was his time. Like Dean was shown driving and suddenly the dog was riding shotgun with him. Why was he not there? When I die, my pets better be there to greet me, that's all I'm going to say about that. 

[Cindy McLennan]

5 hours ago, Katy M said:

I HATED 19 and loved 20, so it was necessary for me.🙂

I didn't care about Jack's ascension. None of that is how I would have had things play out, but it's over and I'm too mad about real world stuff to expend energy on it. (Jack never mattered to me, except that he mattered to the Winchesters and Cas.) So to clarify, I like how 15.19 ended for the boys. They were free, and the future was theirs. That's why I preferred it to 15.20.

3 hours ago, roctavia said:

I think the heaven piece is tricky, and while I'm glad it was "fixed" or rebuilt or whatever... and clearly not something that they have to explain all of the details on.... but just being a place of endless happiness sounds good on paper, but without death, life has little purpose. 

That's if you accept a framework like the one in The Good Place. In the real world, while death imparts a precious quality to life I don't agree that it gives it purpose, so much as urgency. Episode to episode, I thought The Good Place explored interesting ethical questions in a thoughtful way that was way above the usual sitcom fare. I also thought its concept of the afterlife was perhaps its weakest aspect -- shallow, facile.

I don't know enough about Jack's fixed-up Supernatural heaven to know that what was true in The Good Place would be true there. To me, there's a difference between work (even challenging work) and suffering. I don't know what is in store for Dean, Sam, and everybody else in Supernatural heaven. Even if you look at The Bible, human life before the fall of man was not without work (which would give life purpose), or relationships (which -- ditto). 

[Emma9]

Memories: I have clearer recall of reading the description of the show in the new-season teaser edition of TV Guide (back when they were still paperback-book shaped) than of watching the pilot for the first time, because I've seen it again often enough that things are rather muddled.

EXCEPT that I will always remember, and be amused by, the fact that I already was getting out of my seat to go turn off the lights when the pre-show card instructed that the viewer do so.

~

The 'reunion in heaven makes up for a lifetime of missed memories together' finale was terrible when they did it on

Spoiler

Medium

, and though I've become tired enough by this show that it didn't bother me quite as much, it was still annoying. Even though it's been clear for a good while that it'd never go back to being primarily a ghosts/urban legends procedural onscreen, I thought at least maybe we'd get tossed a 'fine, that's what happens after Chuck is defeated' bone.

Sam, Dean, Eileen, and Miracle saving people, hunting things. Let us have our headcanons, willya? Maybe it's selfish of me as a fan, but when a story of any sort goes on for so long, no, understandably you can't please everyone, but it feels (again, probably selfishly) unfair that person at the helm is the only one who gets to carve their vision in stone - 'I'm done with telling the interim years of this story, but the characters live X long in X manner and have X kids and if you want to imagine anything different you're spitting in the eye of canon'.

(Agreed with everyone that there were plenty of ways it could have been confirmed that Eileen was involved in the flashforwards without actually getting the actress. It's also bittersweet that Dean Jr was young enough that 'old' Sam wasn't really dying that old, but she's not present or mentioned at his bedside, so either she died even younger or wasn't able to see him and say goodbye for some reason.

But then I haven't really been paying attention to the fandom proper in too long, maybe there was as much of a hate-on for her as most of the early female characters got and they didn't want to risk the torches and pitchforks.)

 

10 hours ago, kickingnames said:

Basically, breaking the “either/or” rule that the writers were so stuck on about hunting: you either get out of the life completely, or you hunt until you die (sooner rather than later). I would have been so impressed if the result of Chuck being out of the picture was that Sam and Dean actually got to do both: be the legend-caliber hunters they’ve always been, while living a full life.

This, thank you. I think there've been plenty of places in the show that debunked the whole 'living as a hunter is a lonely and miserable existence' thing. They had a home base and a support network, and no ever-escalating mytharc villains specifically out to torture them, which would count for a lot.

[companionenvy]

2 hours ago, Emma9 said:

This, thank you. I think there've been plenty of places in the show that debunked the whole 'living as a hunter is a lonely and miserable existence' thing. They had a home base and a support network, and no ever-escalating mytharc villains specifically out to torture them, which would count for a lot.

Within the context of the episode, it makes sense they didn't clarify this, but I'm wondering if Sam didn't find some sort of compromise. Since the son had the tattoo, we can presume he at least knew something about the hunting life, and Sam doesn't name his kid "Dean" if he is committed to running away from who he was (had Dean stayed in purgatory for good and Sam wound up with Amelia, I can't imagine him having done so). 

[Icarus]

I am satisfied with the ending, as many have said it is not the best but to me I really wanted it to be about Sam and Dean. Sorry for all the Cas fans but to me the series was never about Cas, he had a part to play but it was IMO always about the brothers and their love for each other (not a shipping love before any one says anything on that!). I would have much rather they showed that Dean and Sam had been hunting and free from Chuck's machinations for several years before Dean died, that he had been enjoying normal hunts without all the world ending pressure they had had for so long but as with so much I will have to try and make it my head cannon.

I have watched it twice now and as a devoted, long time fan – actually more like an obsessed long time fan!, I have not fully processed that this is the end so I might feel diferently after a while. I am though very disappointed at all the hate that has been sent out, mainly by Destiel shippers (although as Misha got his own final I don't understand their problem) it seems and the reviews some people are putting on IMBD are really unpleasant. Surely if you are fans of the show, whoever is your favourite it is very nasty to send hate out to the actors and others involved in the show. It does make me want to SHOUT loudly to Jensen and Jared that I certainly appreciate all emotion they put into the final.

[Hana Chan]

14 hours ago, Bobcatkitten said:

Seems Sam fans loved it.

I wouldn't say "loved" it. It's not the worst series finale I ever sat through (Glee, X-Files... I'm looking at you) but it was one that worked with the overall arc of the series. So on that  point, I wasn't totally mad at it. We were never going to get an unvarnished happy or tragic ending because this is Supernatural. It has always been bittersweet and making us feel the loss of characters that mean so much to us. 

For me, as a Sam fan which tremendous and deep love for both Dean and the relationship between the brothers, I never wanted to see the brothers forced to live without one another. It would have been awful to see Dean trying to live without Sam and it was awful to see Sam trying to live without Dean. And while Sam built a life of some sort, had some joy and maybe even found contentment, it was obvious that Dean remained the center of his universe. 

That started from the instant that Sam left the bunker for the final time, unable to remain in what had been his and his brother's first real home since childhood. What did he take with him? His brother's dog, Dean's duffle bag (not his own backpack), Dean's watch and Dean's car. He named his son for his brother, because the world was incomplete without Dean Winchester in it. The photos in his home that we saw were nearly exclusively of him and Dean (and a few others that Sam had lost). Only a few with his son and nothing with his wife. Sam kept the Impala and even what was decades later, just sitting behind the driver's wheel caused him to break. When he finally died, you could see how relieved he was. For whatever happiness Sam might have found, life was a burden to him. He lived because that was what Dean had asked of him as he was dying, but the truth was that Sam's soul and heart died with Dean. They have always been incomplete without one another, living a half-life and biding their time until they could be reunited.

Seeing Sam trying to fulfill his brother's dying wish for him was painful to watch and I was as relieved as Sam was when he finally passed on. It might have been good to find out just what Sam did to fill those years besides raising his son, but honestly the only thing that I wanted was to see him back where he belong at his brother's side, whether it was in this world or the next. The heart of the show was always about their relationship and it was entirely fitting that it ended as it began, with the two finding their way to one another after a long separation.

I do get why Dean fans were so upset at having him die so quickly after finally breaking free of Chuck's manipulation, and I would have loved to have seen how he could have evolved had he been given more time. But he would not have been any happier without Sam as Sam was without him. The boys deserved a great reward for all the sacrifices that they'd made over the years and being Supernatural, getting a glorious afterlife with all the people that they'd loved and lost over the years (most especially one another) was probably the best we could hope for.

Edited November 22, 2020 by Hana Chan

[PAForrest]

11 hours ago, Res said:

If even Heaven cannot give Dean autonomy, he really is in Hell. Dean is not that one dimensional except under Drabb and shippers who seem to have taken over the show. All that driving could have been replaced by Dean just arriving on the bridge to get Sam and tell him about all the people he's reconnected with in Heaven and taking Sam to see them. But, no, ugh!

I can't wait for Jensen to get as far away from the show as possible. It didn't do him any favors under the past few years. I'll still watch the old episodes for the Dean I grew to love but I'm stopping before the S11 finale because that was crap too. 

All of this is JMHO, of course. But I hate it. I might watch Jensen's dying scene again but not anytime soon.

I can't watch it again either - I still have it on the dvr, but I really can't bring myself to watch it. But when I do, at least it's packaged to where I can FF and simply ignore Samantha's porn star wigged life. It has nothing to do with Dean, so I don't have to give a damn anymore - and I don't.

What's weird  is how frankly depressing Sam's life was. I personally don't think we're supposed to believe he ever hooked up with Eileen again. He doesn't mention her in 19 or 20. No, I think what happened, given the blatant Walker promo insert (also annoying AF) and Sam going to Austin, is that he hooked up with some rando broodmare - because that's literally all she was - so he could get a little Dean. The kid seemed to be all he cared about, when he cared about anything. The broodmare is never given a face and isn't by his bedside when he dies, and he doesn't go to her in Heaven if we're supposed to assume she's not there because she died first. Either way, she's irrelevant to us and obviously even more so to Sam. Wow, what a happy life. Yes, it's a Wincester's wet dream (gag me), but in the real world it's just pathetic.

However, I had an epiphany about Dean's "heaven" last night after reading a fix-it fic - because now that's what I have to do to find a decent ending for Dean, since Drabb refused to give him one. And it dawned on me after reading this one fic why Dean's heaven scenes didn't work either - aside from being given no thought by the "writer". Every born again Drabb devotee is claiming Dean was at peace, except that's not how Jensen played it at all, which is interesting.  Dean didn't even look especially happy to see Bobby, and when he's sitting on the porch with him he actually looked bored AF. The only time he perks up is when he sees heaven Baby, and decides to go for a drive.

And again, because Drabb refused to put even an ounce of thought into Dean's heaven, all we see is the guy driving around - not taking the opportunity everyone claims he always wanted to visit family or friends. No, literally all he does is drive.

Why? It finally struck me that driving Baby is the closest thing Dean knows to life as he remembers it. Driving Baby feels like living - because he really does want more life. Dean does not look happy or content in heaven, except in the car and finally reuniting with Sam at the end. But for Dean, heaven regardless of whether it's a prison cell or an open garden is still not life. It is not the peace when he is done everyone promised. For Dean Winchester, heaven is purposeless and boring.

Edited November 22, 2020 by PAForrest

[Bergamot]

15 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I can't remember if this has been mentioned (apologies if so), but the papers on Dean's desk...  For some reason I thought it was a will. Then I saw people saying it was a job application, but somebody with a higher-res tv than mine have identified it as a job contract - one that was already signed. Dean was going to have a job.

OH NO! Really? That makes me even more sad than I was. 😞

In one way, it makes it better, because it shows that Dean was not just satisfied to stay at the exact same point in his life, that he was looking to find something new for himself in addition to hunting, something that was his own, just as @BabySpinach was talking about before. He was ready to take advantage of the freedom he had earned.

And in another way, it makes what happened so much worse, because he never got a chance to do this. 😢

Maybe someone could ask Jensen about this. Maybe it was his idea!

I don't think I would have minded so much if the episode had just shown Dean and Sam entering Heaven together in the end. (Although I DO NOT LIKE how specific they were as to what Heaven was -- they should never have done that, they should have left it up to the viewers' imaginations, because in my opinion whatever they came up with was always going to fall short and ultimately feel disappointing.)

However, if they were going to show Dean and Sam going to Heaven, it should only have happened at the very end of the show, the very last thing. And what Bobby said to Dean about Heaven: "It's a big new world out there, you'll see", and what he then asked him: "So I guess the question is, what are you going to do now, Dean?" -- these should have been said to Dean when he was ALIVE and as he told Sam, "finally free". Not after he had already died.

Edited November 22, 2020 by Bergamot

[foxfreakinmulder]

14 hours ago, Res said:

That being said, Jensen did knock it out of the park but the dialog had my eyes rolling after a few minutes with all the Sam piping. But the "Tell me it's okay" got me. I had to say the same thing to my brother who was ravaged by cancer a few years ago. Within a year of the diagnosis, he was a shell of who he used to be. It killed part of me to tell him to let go, that it was ok.

I having the UO of wishing it was someone, almost anyone other than Bobby that Dean met in Heaven. There were too many  "tough love" and "you're not a person" speeches from him directed at Dean for me to be happy about that. I would've preferred some people he saved, Rufus, Pamela or even Ash. And for Dean to do nothing in Heaven but drive until he finds Sam, that's a shipping group's dream, eck.

If even Heaven cannot give Dean autonomy, he really is in Hell. Dean is not that one dimensional except under Drabb and shippers who seem to have taken over the show. All that driving could have been replaced by Dean just arriving on the bridge to get Sam and tell him about all the people he's reconnected with in Heaven and taking Sam to see them. But, no, ugh!

Sorry to hear about your brother. My mom did they same thing when we lost her last year, she was telling us to let her go so when Dean said those words it hit home for me too.

I wasn't upset to see Bobby there I've always like him but I was wondering if they couldn't get the actress that played Mary because I was surprised she wasn't the one waiting for Dean. Not that I thought it should be her just surprised it wasn't.

Sam got a real life with a wife and son (does anyone know if the first boy was Jared's son?) so when they die and go to heaven is Sam going to leave Dean and go live with them? Dean died without anyone so when Sam goes to live with his wife and child Dean will be all alone again.

The only thing I liked about this episode is the music, the throwback with the license plate on baby in heaven, and the Roadhouse which meant Jo and Ellen are probably in there.

You don't end a show that made history being on air for as long as Supernatural has by killing the stars of the show so I'm still at a big F*#K YOU!!! show F*#K YOU I can't say it enough F*#K YOU!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

[Frost]

20 hours ago, Bergamot said:

But I also agree that Dean deserved to find something in addition to that, something that was his own. He should have had the time and the freedom to do that. Who knows what he could have done if he had?

This reminds me of a fan fic series that I love, in which Dean ends up a forensic anthropologist, like Bones.  He gets to dig up bones in broad daylight!  And get paid to do it!  There must be enough hunters because he and Sam aren't exactly out of the life, but it isn't their focus.   Way too much world building for the series though.  It would have needed the entire 15th season to pull something like it off.  Since they putzed around the first 19 episodes and only left one to wrap it up, I'm OK with Dean going out on a job while he and Sam were still in good health.  Dean could finally let go and not worry about Sam any longer.

[NougatJack]

Well this was interesting. While I have been watching episodes of all seasons I have been wondering why Sam and Dean always survived enemies who were much more powerful than them. Sure, they were both great hunters, but they had enemies which could have killed them only by looking at them, Sam and Dean should‘t stand a chance. 
But they have been Chuck‘s favorite show, so he made sure that they would survive everything he throwed at them, or that they always came back from the dead, no matter how impossible ist has been.

So, without Chuck, and with bad luck, even the greatest hunter can die while fighting monsters. The world for Sam and Dean suddenly became realistic. 
I think that‘s the massage of the episode, and it was very nicely done. The scenes were Sam had to live without bis brother were sad, and I had to cry a lot. I liked the music and the reunion in heaven. Though I would have loved to see Cas and Jack, I understand that they weren‘t in this episode. The series begun with only Sam and Dean, so ist ended with just Sam and Dean.

[ahrtee]

7 hours ago, companionenvy said:

Within the context of the episode, it makes sense they didn't clarify this, but I'm wondering if Sam didn't find some sort of compromise. Since the son had the tattoo, we can presume he at least knew something about the hunting life, and Sam doesn't name his kid "Dean" if he is committed to running away from who he was (had Dean stayed in purgatory for good and Sam wound up with Amelia, I can't imagine him having done so). 

I'm sure Sam told his family about hunting (he didn't want them to end up like Jessica, who was kept in the dark), but I'm not sure if the son was a hunter.  I could see the tattoo as protection from anything that might come for them (remember how paranoid Dean was when with Lisa and Ben.)  And even if demons were (more or less) under control, there might be some rogue badguys out there who would love to take out any Winchester available.

Sam wasn't running away from who he was.  He'd learned that's too dangerous for those he loves.  And I disagree that, if he'd stayed with Amelia he wouldn't have named a child Dean.  He did say how much he missed him and, while the memory was painful, I can't see him literally wiping him out of his mind.

Well, maybe he and Amelia could have twins, named Dean and Don. 😊

[theatremouse]

Please remember to keep BvJ stuff in that topic. Only discuss past seasons as relates directly to this episode. Further off-topic posts will be removed and will result in warnings.

[gonzosgirrl]

This is from one of the TCA interviews back in Aug 2019. I clipped out the relevant parts, but the link to the full video is there. Was Jensen trying to tell us even then? And how interesting is the particular scene they chose to use when he is speaking about the end.

 

[gonzosgirrl]

2 minutes ago, PinkChicken said:

You guyssssss 😞 It was established in episode 1 by Kevin that any soul that had been to hell couldn't go to heaven. They never had any reason to change this assessment. They didn't have confirmation Jack made things any better than ~how they always were~ and this is presented like one of the laws of nature. We know they don't know, because then they would also know that memorex heaven wasn't a thing anymore.

My point is that whole time Dean was 100% sure he was going back to hell.

And who told Sam? No wonder he looked so depressed.

That was such a stupid, throwaway retcon. They already knew it wasn't true, since Bobby was already there. But it was made clear that Dean was expecting Memorex Heaven, because he asked Bobby what memory this was.

[Katy M]

4 minutes ago, PinkChicken said:

You guyssssss 😞 It was established in episode 1 by Kevin that any soul that had been to hell couldn't go to heaven. They never had any reason to change this assessment.

they never had any reason to believe that assessment in the first place.  Dean had been to hell between seasons 3 and 4 and he went to Heaven in Season 5.  Bobby had been to Hell and then went to Heaven. And there was every reason to believe that John was snapped up to Hell at athe end of All Hell Breaks Loose 2.

[gonzosgirrl]

Seems like Jared is saying in his panel today that the scene in the barn was largely him and Jensen - that Badd and Singer gave them rein. Also that the S1 clothing in Heaven and the mirrored dialogue (I can't do it alone, yes you can, well I don't want to) were his idea. Also that he was kind of glad they couldn't have the (planned)  big reunion in Heaven, because he liked that it was just Sam and Dean, like it started. And that he liked that each of their last words on screen were each other's names. 

Edited November 22, 2020 by gonzosgirrl
Clarity

[bethy]

7 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Also that he was kind of glad they couldn't have the (planned)  big reunion in Heaven, because he liked that it was just Sam and Dean, like it started. And that he liked that each of their last words on screen were each other's names. 

I like that, too. I hadn’t noticed their last words were each other’s names. I think that’s sweet.

[PAForrest]

42 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Seems like Jared is saying in his panel today that the scene in the barn was largely him and Jensen - that Badd and Singer gave them rein. Also that the S1 clothing in Heaven and the mirrored dialogue (I can't do it alone, yes you can, well I don't want to) were his idea. Also that he was kind of glad they couldn't have the (planned)  big reunion in Heaven, because he liked that it was just Sam and Dean, like it started. And that he liked that each of their last words on screen were each other's names. 

From what I was reading - and actually Misha said it too in his panel - it sounds like the big heaven reunion was supposed to be in Dean's part of the episode, which IMO would have made Dean's heaven a helluva lot stronger and maybe look like something Dean even wanted. As it stands, his heaven was barely touched on, looked rather bleak, and Dean didn't appear content or happy except when the car showed up. Was the car a stand-in for everyone else because of COVID? At least Baby cared.

I think when Sam arrived it was supposed to be just them on the bridge with the understanding Dean would take Sam to see everyone who was there - maybe even say that. But I think the final scene was always just supposed to be them because that was stated well before COVID, and I know that had been the expectation for months.

 

Edited November 22, 2020 by PAForrest

[Katy M]

3 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

But I think the final scene was always just supposed to be them

As it should have been.

[Aeryn13]

3 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

From what I was reading it sounds like the big heaven reunion was supposed to be in Dean's part of the episode, which IMO would have made Dean's heaven a helluva lot stronger and maybe look like something Dean even wanted. As it stands, his heaven was barely touched on, looked rather bleak, and Dean didn't appear content or happy except when the car showed up. Was the car a stand-in for everyone else because of COVID? At least Baby cared.

I think when Sam arrived it was supposed to be just them on the bridge with the understanding Dean would take Sam to see everyone who was there - maybe even say that. But I think the final scene was always just supposed to be them because that was stated well before COVID, and I know that had been the expectation for months.

 

They could have still cut something together with archived footage if it was just supposed to be "look, it's me" cameos anyway. There was no need and no excuse to make Dean's heaven so empty it stripped him even more of a personhood.

So his death scene was weak, not even heroic or made to look more dynamic. It happens pretty much right after Chuck, lending more credence to this dumb idea of "Chuck did everything". Then he put himself down to ridiculous degrees as his final words. And then his heaven is just being shelved till Sam arrives. 

And nothing is shown or spoken of a legacy he leaves behind while Sam has at least a son.

Yes, as a Dean fan that really makes me ecstactic that 15 years of the character ended like this. This episode honestly to a degree made me regret ever tuning into the show in the first place. And like the GOT ending, it killed any desire for rewatches.

I don't mind when characters die in the end. But if they go out like this, it makes me feel I wasted my time for years.

Which makes me feel bad for Jensen because he obviously put a lot of hard work, tears and sweat into that character.

[gonzosgirrl]

16 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

From what I was reading it sounds like the big heaven reunion was supposed to be in Dean's part of the episode, which IMO would have made Dean's heaven a helluva lot stronger and maybe look like something Dean even wanted. As it stands, his heaven was barely touched on, looked rather bleak, and Dean didn't appear content or happy except when the car showed up. Was the car a stand-in for everyone else because of COVID? At least Baby cared.

I think when Sam arrived it was supposed to be just them on the bridge with the understanding Dean would take Sam to see everyone who was there - maybe even say that. But I think the final scene was always just supposed to be them because that was stated well before COVID, and I know that had been the expectation for months.

 

This was what I read

It seems like the two things are being conflated then.

[Binns]

5 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

This was what I read

It seems like the two things are being conflated then.

I don’t think he’s saying he preferred the post covid script...what I took away from what he was saying was that he was happy the last scene was just the boys which it was always going to be. Prior to that Dean could have had a much bigger greeting party and in my head canon he did. 

[Res]

27 minutes ago, Katy M said:

As it should have been.

Respectfully, opinions vary.

To me, it would have worked if they didn't have Dean do nothing until Sam got there. I've never been big into the interdependence stuff but this just soured me as it implied that Dean couldn't do anything, even in Heaven, without Sam. I know that's BS but that's how they wanted to end it. With backwards growth for Dean because even in the pilot, he'd been able to hunt without Sam. 

Of course this is my view and opinion. As I stated in the beginning, I respect that you feel differently. 

Edited November 22, 2020 by Res

[Katy M]

33 minutes ago, Res said:

Respectfully, opinions vary.

To me, it would have worked if they didn't have Dean do nothing until Sam got there. I've never been big into the interdependence stuff but this just soured me as it implied that Dean couldn't do anything, even in Heaven, without Sam. I know that's BS but that's how they wanted to end it. With backwards growth for Dean because even in the pilot, he'd been able to hunt without Sam. 

Of course this is my view and opinion. As I stated in the beginning, I respect that you feel differently. 

He wasn't doing nothing. He was driving.  I think it had been adequately shown throughout the series that Dean loved that car.  

[Jeddah]

10 minutes ago, Katy M said:

He wasn't doing nothing. He was driving.  I think it had been adequately shown throughout the series that Dean loved that car.  

I interpreted that he had only been driving for a little bit because that’s how time in heaven works. That’s why they specifically had Bobby mention that time was different. He took a scenic drive in the car he loves listening to music he loves, and then he met Sam on the bridge. I assume after that they went and reunited with everyone else together. I really didn’t get the feeling he just drove around, or sat around waiting and waiting for a long time.

[catrox14]

The thing that grates is that they could have spent 3 minutes showing Dean applying for that job or even getting the job (glad was wrong and it wasn't a will), still hunting a bit, and then telling Sam he's quitting hunting, but let's take this one last case. And then he dies. To me that would have been truly tragic. Show us a time jump like 4 months later or something so we could see Dean seeking a new life, caring for the pooch, grieving Cas or trying to get him out of the Empty, and then accepting he isn't coming back. Show Sam grieving  Eileen or having a long distance relationship with her. To me that would have had a much more tragic punch and would have been a much bigger FU to Chuck.

Because Dean had so much more character development, than this finale implies.

I'm still smad!

[bethy]

I didn’t think Dean in the car was meant to imply he couldn’t do anything without Sam. I saw it as Dean enjoying a drive while time passed during Sam’s life. Bobby said that time was different so I assumed it was a fairly short drive for Dean that was a lifetime for Sam. 

[Binns]

51 minutes ago, Res said:

Respectfully, opinions vary.

To me, it would have worked if they didn't have Dean do nothing until Sam got there. I've never been big into the interdependence stuff but this just soured me as it implied that Dean couldn't do anything, even in Heaven, without Sam. I know that's BS but that's how they wanted to end it. With backwards growth for Dean because even in the pilot, he'd been able to hunt without Sam. 

Of course this is my view and opinion. As I stated in the beginning, I respect that you feel differently. 

I feel like he could have been having a raucous barbecue/party before going to get Sam if circumstances were different. Maybe they could have had Bobby say “go inside and see everyone!” Or whatever. But I also think that he would not be able to enjoy himself completely without Sam, and maybe that’s too bad but I don’t know if it’s backwards growth considering what they had been through. In the pilot they hadn’t been through nearly that much trauma. Especially once John died- Sam was all he had. I don’t know, I know people don’t like to think that Dean was only able to thrive/function when he knew Sam was happy and healthy, but ...

[Aeryn13]

2 minutes ago, Binns said:

I feel like he could have been having a raucous barbecue/party before going to get Sam if circumstances were different. Maybe they could have had Bobby say “go inside and see everyone!” Or whatever. But I also think that he would not be able to enjoy himself completely without Sam, and maybe that’s too bad but I don’t know if it’s backwards growth considering what they had been through. In the pilot they hadn’t been through nearly that much trauma. Especially once John died- Sam was all he had. I don’t know, I know people don’t like to think that Dean was only able to thrive/function when he knew Sam was happy and healthy, but ...

That truly would make him a pathetic loser if he couldn't function in anything without making it all about Sam. When conversely Sam could function well enough to have a long life and raise a child. Why must only Dean be shown like that? To make the "weak" claim true? 

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Binns said:

know people don’t like to think that Dean was only able to thrive/function when he knew Sam was happy and healthy, but ...

It's not just people thinking it up on their own. The show has shown and told us that Dean lived on his own, and lived with Lisa. He wasn't happy but that was because Sam was in the cage. To me, even though Dean always wanted to protect Sam, he could live without him. He did it with Cassie, too.

[Katy M]

16 minutes ago, Jeddah said:

I interpreted that he had only been driving for a little bit because that’s how time in heaven works. That’s why they specifically had Bobby mention that time was different. He took a scenic drive in the car he loves listening to music he loves, and then he met Sam on the bridge. I assume after that they went and reunited with everyone else together. I really didn’t get the feeling he just drove around, or sat around waiting and waiting for a long time.

I did also.  I figured an hour or so.  Obviously it would have been ridiculous for him to be driving for 50 years or whatever.  I don't know if the sun ever goes down in Heaven, but it was daylight the entire time he was driving.

[Aeryn13]

9 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I did also.  I figured an hour or so.  Obviously it would have been ridiculous for him to be driving for 50 years or whatever.  

After what he spouted during his death scene, why would it be ridiculous? He reduced himself to being entirely about Sam. So just driving around to wait for Sam because he isn't even his own person and has no wants of his own would be exactly logical. If it was for an hour or 50 years. This episode said some things about thr character and none of them was good.

Edited November 22, 2020 by Aeryn13

[Binns]

47 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

That truly would make him a pathetic loser if he couldn't function in anything without making it all about Sam. When conversely Sam could function well enough to have a long life and raise a child. Why must only Dean be shown like that? To make the "weak" claim true? 

Yea, I agree that the character hasn’t been treated well and that he should have been shown to have more agency. My comments were about where the writers took things. I don’t think it makes Dean weak to be dedicated to his brother tho. I also don’t think Sam was functioning all that well. He was so, so, sad in the Impala in the scene before he died. 
 

I would like to hear from JA. I wonder if some of his concern was that the story was as you said making Dean appear to be nonfunctional without Sam nearby. 

[Smad]

Thank Chuck it's finally over. I didn't get emotional at all other than happy the actors, Jensen in particular, are finally free. There are two reasons why: 1) Everything was written by Chuck (right down to dialogue...as shown in S4) and these guys have never been their own characters and 2) the 'characters' have been ruined by Dabb and his writers to the point I didn't really care about them anymore.

I'm remaining steadfast in my show/canon ending with 11x23 because that was a great ending, especially God's departing words make me imagine so many exiting possibilities.

[gonzosgirrl]

It occurs to me that in the beginning of the episode, when Sad Face Sam laments Cas and Jack, Dean tells him that if they 'don't  keep living,  then all that sacrifice was for nothing'. And then he died.

Oh, Badd. 

Edited November 23, 2020 by gonzosgirrl