S15.E20: Carry On (Series Finale)

[Scout Finch]

Not sure if anyone else noticed that the family who got attacked were also at the pie festival. Just as the scene at their house was starting I rewound it to the festival and it was definitely them, wearing the same clothes. They passed in front of Dean when he was walking back with the box of pie slices. So, then I'm expecting some connection to the Winchesters as to why that particular family was chosen but apparently Dabb was just recycling extras.

[BabySpinach]

11 minutes ago, TheGreenKnight said:

As much as people are complaining about Dean dying on a regular hunt, to me that was why I liked the finale? Dean always said this is how it would be, that he'd die a completely random death while hunting, that he would never grow old. 

See, that was my exact problem with it. Dean only ever saw this ending for himself because he had such low self-worth and felt that a bloody end was all he deserved. But we saw that change in 15.19 as he openly acknowledged for the first time that he was more than just a killer. Yet his death in this episode, right after their victory over God, implies that his first belief was the correct one, that he really was only good for dying young on the job. And that's depressing as hell because it renders any of his progression toward a healthier self-regard utterly moot. He was enjoying life and freedom, he had a new dog, he was still saving people, and he deserved many more years of that.

[deemac]

I basically quit watching with the Jack story but I have the episodes on DVR and will eventually/occasionally watch.  I did watch this though.

My take aways?  First was absolute horror at Dean washing dishes and not rinsing the suds off  before putting them in the drying rack.  Do people actually do that?

Other than that......Dean's single man tear when he died, Sam's single man tear the same and assuming it was Dean's lighter Sam used to light the pyre and then he just threw it in with Dean's body.  I've felt Dean was the heart and soul of the show and the last episodes I watched felt like Jared was phoning in his performance but he nailed this one.  Maybe if I ever watch my unwatched episodes I'll feel different but just wish Dean/Jenson had got more credit like so many others here.

[juppschmitz]

Well, I'm not surprised Jensen didn't like the ending. It was basically a(n incredibly cheesy) soap opera ending to a horror show.

I'm also not surprised Kripke seemed to find the ending good, seeing how Sam was really kind of Kripke's avatar and Dean the lesser brother to support Sam's hero's journey. 

I mean, come on, even Deans dying words were about Sam. (Did they really stick an "Always keep fighting" reference in there? Really?)

I only watched the dying scene, the Sam montage and the heavenly reunion, and none of that packed any punch whatsoever. 

Having said that, I'm glad Dabb didn't kill Sam "young" (with Dean still showering Sam with praise in their last moments together) and made Dean grow old, and make him wear an Einstein wig. *shrugs*

[gonzosgirrl]

For me, it wasnt that he died on a regular hunt. I'd rather that than him be killed by a big bad like Chuck. But I would have liked it to be a more heroic death. He wasn't saving anyone - Sam alrready had it (the last vamp that had hold of Dean)  under control. If the spike wasn't in the post, he walks away. It was random. I didn't even want him to die saving Sam. That would've just been more angsty guilty Sammy nonsense. Maube actually shielding one of the kids. Now, his death is already a meme. A joke. I hate that.

[Myrelle]

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

Death doesn't kill, Death just reaps what is already dead.

IDK about that.

Death looked pretty murderous as regards to Dean two episodes ago.

[gonzosgirrl]

5 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

IDK about that.

Death looked pretty murderous as regards to Dean two episodes ago.

Not to mention the dude he brushed shoulders with in his introduction. 

[Bergamot]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Well the memes have started already. Dean's death is a rusty nail joke

Not going to tell anyone else how to feel about it, but for me, Dean's death was not stupid or unheroic. It's not like he clumsily tripped over Miracle while goofing around and accidentally stepped on a nail. He was fighting a nest of vampires to save two little boys and was impaled on a long sharp piece of metal. The fact that the stakes were "just" the lives of two kids rather than the salvation of the entire world did not make it less heroic. Neither does the fact that he didn't kill every vampire he fought and thus ended up getting killed himself. If he hadn't been there, fighting alongside Sam, who knows if any of them, including the children, would have escaped? For me, I totally reject the idea that Dean did not die a heroic death. As Dean himself said, he went out "saving people, hunting things" to the very end.

I was very moved as I watched Dean die. You see him realizing that he is not going to make it, and trying to convey that to Sam. Then the very first thing he tells Sam to do is that he must find the boys and get them to safety, because that is his top priority. Then he tries to make sure that Sam will be okay once he is gone.

I think Dean was trying to say whatever he could think of that would help Sam get through this. Like him bringing up the fact that when they were growing up Sam would always defy John's orders, which to me seems like a somewhat random thing that he just threw in there. I don't know if Dean really believed that Sam was smarter and stronger than he was, I guess probably, but that doesn't make it true. I think that Dean said this because he thought that hearing it would help Sam. Which if it was true that this was something Sam wanted and needed to hear, maybe says more about Sam than it does Dean.

Of course I wanted to hear Sam saying in his turn whatever he could think of that would help DEAN get through this. The fact that he didn't, again maybe says more about Sam than it does Dean. I don't know -- it's like, who was the strong one here?  At least Sam found the strength to give Dean the one thing he specifically asked of him, which was to tell him that it was okay for him to go.

What really left a huge gaping hole in the episode for me was not so much what Sam did or didn't say. It was the fact that we never got a chance to hear what we lost, when we lost Dean, from anyone at all.

Okay, so because of COVID restrictions, they couldn't show us a big funeral, or a wake, attended by those affected by Dean's death. But they should have found a way to work around that. We should have heard from people like Jody and Donna and other hunters, and maybe also other people Dean saved, who could tell us what a wonderful and heroic person Dean was. If they couldn't do it in person, I don't know, maybe they could have shown Sam listening to voice mail messages or reading emails where these people talked about what Dean meant to them.

Like I said, the lack of this in the episode, making it seem like no one but Sam would even notice or care that Dean was gone, was for me a gaping hole in the story. And I think it was what made Sam not saying anything to Dean so noticeable and disappointing.

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Random thoughts on the episode:

I am pretty certain Badd did lift Dean's death from AHBL. But this time it was Sam crying over Dean. And yet the only thing Sam did was listen to Dean sing his praises. Not once did Sam say anything like "Thank you" or "I love you, too".  I mean I get Sam was in a bit of shock, but you'd think he could have squeeked something nice to say to Dean about Dean before he dies. JFC.

Dean did not get a peaceful death. He died traumatically and he had to practically beg Sam to stay with him. He was scared of dying alone. That is not peaceful. The only thing that made it tolerable was Jensen's performance. No offense to Jared but I thought that was Jared's tears more than Sam's

IA with all of this and as to the first paragraph, what a difference the writing made.

I also felt that Dabb tried to rehash Exile on Main Street for JP in this one.

And again, the original came  out on top for me,  and that even with Ben not being Dean's biological child. In fact, I think by giving Sam an actual biological child, they showed us that there had to have been some moments when Sam had truly and genuinely moved on and experienced real joy and happiness with Dean gone from his life-and not just because Dean wanted that for Sam, but because Sam wanted it for himself, too.

And that bolded part? Good Lord, that was so well done by Mr. Ackles. Not only was he scared of dying alone, but scared of dying, period.

I loved how Jensen conveyed that part of it because aren't we all, when it really comes down to it. 

 

[Binns]

17 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

IDK about that.

Death looked pretty murderous as regards to Dean two episodes ago.

Right, and OG Death was ready to kill Sam if Dean didn’t in the season 10 finale. 

[Bobcatkitten]

22 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Not going to tell anyone else how to feel about it, but for me, Dean's death was not stupid or unheroic. It's not like he clumsily tripped over Miracle while goofing around and accidentally stepped on a nail. He was fighting a nest of vampires to save two little boys and was impaled on a long sharp piece of metal. The fact that the stakes were "just" the lives of two kids rather than the salvation of the entire world did not make it less heroic. Neither does the fact that he didn't kill every vampire he fought and thus ended up getting killed himself. If he hadn't been there, fighting alongside Sam, who knows if any of them, including the children, would have escaped? For me, I totally reject the idea that Dean did not die a heroic death. As Dean himself said, he went out "saving people, hunting things" to the very end.

 

This!!

[gonzosgirrl]

@Bergamot I agree with most all you posted, I was saying it was being made fun of on Twitter. Dean's intentions were certainly heroic, and he absolutely didn't do anything wrong/dumb to cause his own death. But the fight was over and the kids saved, and Sam was on top of ganking the vamp that had Dean. It was so random at that point. The Supernatural equivalent of Derek Shepherd's (Dr. Sexy, lol) death on Grey's.  I guess I wanted something that nobody could twist into something less-than. I know that was too much to hope for from Dabb. Maybe if he hadn't already screwed Dean (and Jensen) over so thoroughly over the past few seasons, I wouldn't have such a stinkeye for this.

[Dobian]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

The last episode Eileen was in was The Trap which was filmed well before shutdown. I think that was even before Christmas break, but maybe not.  I have no concept of time anymore.

ETA: It was aired in January, so filmed before Covid was rampant.

I suppose that's possible, but he brought back Cas, who had also died numerous times.

You're right, Eileen wasn't exactly "in" the episode where she dies, Sam was just texting her while they raced to her house.  And the fact that they didn't show her at all in that episode lends credence to the no availability theory.   So it is plausible that the actress wasn't available.

Well he brought back Cas to Heaven, and Cas is an angel.  So a little different from bringing back humans.

Edited November 20, 2020 by Dobian

[Myrelle]

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Well the memes have started already. Dean's death is a rusty nail joke

I can make a pretty good guess as to who and where these are coming from and it's always from the same pack of hyenas when they don't get what they want in exactly the way they want it.

Well Surprise! Badd gave it to their mortal enemies instead.  

Not that it makes me happy to see this show that I once loved so much and the character that I still love so much reduced to little more than the big prize in a shipper's war with both sides hating on both the character and the actor who portrays him in turns.

The writing and those parts of this fandom that the writing has strictly catered to-that was the biggest problem with this last season AFAIC.

Well, maybe it was neck and neck with Badd's obsession with trying to turn this show into just another one of his spin-offs-both of which failed, as we all know.

I'm so relieved to finally be done with that aspect of this fandom and I refuse to give them any more time or notice.

Edited November 20, 2020 by Myrelle

[Bergamot]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

@Bergamot I agree with most all you posted, I was saying it was being made fun of on Twitter. Dean's intentions were certainly heroic, and he absolutely didn't do anything wrong/dumb to cause his own death. But the fight was over and the kids saved, and Sam was on top of ganking the vamp that had Dean. It was so random at that point. The Supernatural equivalent of Derek Shepherd's (Dr. Sexy, lol) death on Grey's.  I guess I wanted something that nobody could twist into something less-than. I know that was too much to hope for from Dabb. Maybe if he hadn't already screwed Dean (and Jensen) over so thoroughly over the past few seasons, I wouldn't have such a stinkeye for this.

Understood! I also wish it would have been acknowledged more on the show what a heroic character Dean was.

[Binns]

2 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I can make a pretty good guess as to who and where these are coming from and it's always from the same pack of hyenas when they don't get what they want in exactly the way they want it.

 

 

Amen, Padaleski. 

[Dobian]

I'm in the camp that has no problem with how Dean died.  That is how life happens.  That's why Buster Douglas beat Mike Tyson.  It's why Team USA beat the Russian hockey team in the 1980 Olympics.  Dean had won against Lucifer, God, and a host of other Big Bads, but in the end was killed by an extra in a red suit.  Why?  Because it was a total fluke, a fluke which should have happened about 257 times in previous episodes but didn't, which is probably because God wrote the script.  It is much more believable that Dean died the way he did than that he survived countless times against impossible odds.  It was poetic how he died, and how Dean would have wanted it, with Sam there and the danger averted.

[gonzosgirrl]

3 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I can make a pretty good guess as to who and where these are coming from and it's always from the same pack of hyenas when they don't get what they want in exactly the way they want it.

 

I don't know who started it, but sadly the tweets I saw involved two members of the cast.

[S Cook Productions]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't know who started it, but sadly the tweets I saw involved two members of the cast.

I’m so glad I don’t have Twitter or fb. 

[Aeryn13]

1 minute ago, Dobian said:

I'm in the camp that has no problem with how Dean died.  That is how life happens.  That's why Buster Douglas beat Mike Tyson.  It's why Team USA beat the Russian hockey team in the 1980 Olympics.  Dean had won against Lucifer, God, and a host of other Big Bads, but in the end was killed by an extra in a red suit.  Why?  Because it was a total fluke, a fluke which should have happened about 257 times in previous episodes but didn't, which is probably because God wrote the script.  It is much more believable that Dean died the way he did than that he survived countless times against impossible odds.  It was poetic how he died, and how Dean would have wanted it, with Sam there and the danger averted.

But that all lends credence to the thought that Dean or the brothers never accomplished anything ever in the 300+ episodes prior. Because it was all Chuck handing them the win. And once that's over Dean immediately dies noob-style. Even other hunters manage to successfully complete hunts without being handed wins or falling onto nails.

[Myrelle]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't know who started it, but sadly the tweets I saw involved two members of the cast.

So the pettiness is infectious then, I guess. 

So sad.

[Binns]

5 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't know who started it, but sadly the tweets I saw involved two members of the cast.

Wait, that were participating in the flaming?

[Dobian]

1 minute ago, Aeryn13 said:

But that all lends credence to the thought that Dean or the brothers never accomplished anything ever in the 300+ episodes prior. Because it was all Chuck handing them the win. And once that's over Dean immediately dies noob-style. Even other hunters manage to successfully complete hunts without being handed wins or falling onto nails.

My head will hurt if I get into a discussion of free will lol.  I will say that Sam and Dean had the skills of great hunters and in the end beat God Himself, which was not in the script.

[gonzosgirrl]

3 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

So the pettiness is infectious then, I guess. 

So sad.

Yes it is, and it feeds on itself.

[TheGreenKnight]

2 hours ago, Bergamot said:

I think Dean was trying to say whatever he could think of that would help Sam get through this. Like him bringing up the fact that when they were growing up Sam would always defy John's orders, which to me seems like a somewhat random thing that he just threw in there. I don't know if Dean really believed that Sam was smarter and stronger than he was, I guess probably, but that doesn't make it true. I think that Dean said this because he thought that hearing it would help Sam. Which if it was true that this was something Sam wanted and needed to hear, maybe says more about Sam than it does Dean.

Of course I wanted to hear Sam saying in his turn whatever he could think of that would help DEAN get through this. The fact that he didn't, again maybe says more about Sam than it does Dean. I don't know -- it's like, who was the strong one here?  At least Sam found the strength to give Dean the one thing he specifically asked of him, which was to tell him that it was okay for him to go.

I assumed he was just trying to help Sam through it, too. It's sort of like if a parent with a young child was dying, and they tell the child how strong and brave they are to try to build them up to handle what comes next, being alone. And Dean was more like Sam's parent to me than John ever was and he always believed the best in Sam even if Sam wasn't sure of it himself. (Reminds me of how the angels had to alter Dean's phone call back in the episode Lucifer was unleashed in order to get Sam to really hit the bottom, that it wasn't until he believed Dean had given up on him completely that he really became unhinged.) 'Cause the truth is Sam isn't nearly as strong as Dean, considering how many times he's fell down the hole in this series and needed Dean to pull him back from the brink.

My interpretation of the second half of the finale was that Sam was too weak to even bear being in the bunker or around the world of everyone that was gone, and that's why he walked out on it all and never came back. The car was really the only thing he needed to remember Dean with. I doubt Sam even really went out to meet the guy who called Dean's phone about the hunting job considering how zoned out he was when he was looking back down the stairwell. He probably just drove until he landed somewhere, cue some woman picking him up like a lost puppy.

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, Bergamot said:

Not going to tell anyone else how to feel about it, but for me, Dean's death was not stupid or unheroic. It's not like he clumsily tripped over Miracle while goofing around and accidentally stepped on a nail. He was fighting a nest of vampires to save two little boys and was impaled on a long sharp piece of metal. The fact that the stakes were "just" the lives of two kids rather than the salvation of the entire world did not make it less heroic. Neither does the fact that he didn't kill every vampire he fought and thus ended up getting killed himself. If he hadn't been there, fighting alongside Sam, who knows if any of them, including the children, would have escaped? For me, I totally reject the idea that Dean did not die a heroic death. As Dean himself said, he went out "saving people, hunting things" to the very end.

I was very moved as I watched Dean die. You see him realizing that he is not going to make it, and trying to convey that to Sam. Then the very first thing he tells Sam to do is that he must find the boys and get them to safety, because that is his top priority. Then he tries to make sure that Sam will be okay once he is gone.

I think Dean was trying to say whatever he could think of that would help Sam get through this. Like him bringing up the fact that when they were growing up Sam would always defy John's orders, which to me seems like a somewhat random thing that he just threw in there. I don't know if Dean really believed that Sam was smarter and stronger than he was, I guess probably, but that doesn't make it true. I think that Dean said this because he thought that hearing it would help Sam. Which if it was true that this was something Sam wanted and needed to hear, maybe says more about Sam than it does Dean.

Of course I wanted to hear Sam saying in his turn whatever he could think of that would help DEAN get through this. The fact that he didn't, again maybe says more about Sam than it does Dean. I don't know -- it's like, who was the strong one here?  At least Sam found the strength to give Dean the one thing he specifically asked of him, which was to tell him that it was okay for him to go.

What really left a huge gaping hole in the episode for me was not so much what Sam did or didn't say. It was the fact that we never got a chance to hear what we lost, when we lost Dean, from anyone at all.

Okay, so because of COVID restrictions, they couldn't show us a big funeral, or a wake, attended by those affected by Dean's death. But they should have found a way to work around that. We should have heard from people like Jody and Donna and other hunters, and maybe also other people Dean saved, who could tell us what a wonderful and heroic person Dean was. If they couldn't do it in person, I don't know, maybe they could have shown Sam listening to voice mail messages or reading emails where these people talked about what Dean meant to them.

Like I said, the lack of this in the episode, making it seem like no one but Sam would even notice or care that Dean was gone, was for me a gaping hole in the story. And I think it was what made Sam not saying anything to Dean so noticeable and disappointing.

This. 

Thank you.

 

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, Bergamot said:

Not going to tell anyone else how to feel about it, but for me, Dean's death was not stupid or unheroic. It's not like he clumsily tripped over Miracle while goofing around and accidentally stepped on a nail. He was fighting a nest of vampires to save two little boys and was impaled on a long sharp piece of metal. The fact that the stakes were "just" the lives of two kids rather than the salvation of the entire world did not make it less heroic. Neither does the fact that he didn't kill every vampire he fought and thus ended up getting killed himself. If he hadn't been there, fighting alongside Sam, who knows if any of them, including the children, would have escaped? For me, I totally reject the idea that Dean did not die a heroic death. As Dean himself said, he went out "saving people, hunting things" to the very end.

I was very moved as I watched Dean die. You see him realizing that he is not going to make it, and trying to convey that to Sam. Then the very first thing he tells Sam to do is that he must find the boys and get them to safety, because that is his top priority. Then he tries to make sure that Sam will be okay once he is gone.

I think Dean was trying to say whatever he could think of that would help Sam get through this. Like him bringing up the fact that when they were growing up Sam would always defy John's orders, which to me seems like a somewhat random thing that he just threw in there. I don't know if Dean really believed that Sam was smarter and stronger than he was, I guess probably, but that doesn't make it true. I think that Dean said this because he thought that hearing it would help Sam. Which if it was true that this was something Sam wanted and needed to hear, maybe says more about Sam than it does Dean.

Of course I wanted to hear Sam saying in his turn whatever he could think of that would help DEAN get through this. The fact that he didn't, again maybe says more about Sam than it does Dean. I don't know -- it's like, who was the strong one here?  At least Sam found the strength to give Dean the one thing he specifically asked of him, which was to tell him that it was okay for him to go.

What really left a huge gaping hole in the episode for me was not so much what Sam did or didn't say. It was the fact that we never got a chance to hear what we lost, when we lost Dean, from anyone at all.

Okay, so because of COVID restrictions, they couldn't show us a big funeral, or a wake, attended by those affected by Dean's death. But they should have found a way to work around that. We should have heard from people like Jody and Donna and other hunters, and maybe also other people Dean saved, who could tell us what a wonderful and heroic person Dean was. If they couldn't do it in person, I don't know, maybe they could have shown Sam listening to voice mail messages or reading emails where these people talked about what Dean meant to them.

Like I said, the lack of this in the episode, making it seem like no one but Sam would even notice or care that Dean was gone, was for me a gaping hole in the story. And I think it was what made Sam not saying anything to Dean so noticeable and disappointing.

I assumed that Dean dying was going to go to hunter funeral... hunter wake. 

It was a bad episode full of bad writing choices and topped by a very bad wig.

Edited November 20, 2020 by Castiels Cat

[Castiels Cat]

4 hours ago, Binns said:

I got the impression Sam was trying to deny what Dean was saying but was too much of a wreck to get it out. He was shaking his head and all of that. They could have done it better but I think JA did it so well and it was so Dean that I’m ok with it. Dean is so damaged...he wouldn’t have believed Sam if he had denied it and also he had things to say. He needed to say these things and Sam recognized he needed to get them out and let him talk. That’s my takeaway at least. I do wish Sam had said I love you back. 
 

I made the mistake of watching that scene again this morning and now I’m so sad! 
 

Do we think Dean Jr was a hunter? I feel like Sam wouldn’t have allowed that. 
 

Just realized Sam was wearing Dean’s watch. A little surprised we didn’t see the amulet. Maybe a bit too much fan service, haha. I loved seeing the clothes from S1E1. But oh, costumes. Couldn’t you have used baby powder or found a different wig?

The tat implies that the family business continues.

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, Scout Finch said:

Not sure if anyone else noticed that the family who got attacked were also at the pie festival. Just as the scene at their house was starting I rewound it to the festival and it was definitely them, wearing the same clothes. They passed in front of Dean when he was walking back with the box of pie slices. So, then I'm expecting some connection to the Winchesters as to why that particular family was chosen but apparently Dabb was just recycling extras.

They should have taken advantage of that, and had the attack happen closer to the pie fest and had the nest targeting S&D. They made such a big deal of the vamps keeping your scent for life in DMB, that it would have made sense for them to come after them, even if it did take them 100 years.

[Myrelle]

19 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I was very moved as I watched Dean die. You see him realizing that he is not going to make it, and trying to convey that to Sam. Then the very first thing he tells Sam to do is that he must find the boys and get them to safety, because that is his top priority.

So I pretty much bawled my eyes out when I read this.

Dean died an Unsung Hero.

That's basically it.

And maybe that's how Jensen made the best of it.

That seems like something he would do since, obviously, no one would listen to him.

 

 

 

[goyour-own-way]

I've never watched a show from beginning to end that lasted so long, it's a strange feeling. I was 19 years old when it came on, and I was in the  Army at the time, in Iraq. My sister started watching it and told me all about it, and she got me hooked. When I think back to what my life was like back then, and what it's like now, it almost makes me dizzy! And to think SPN was there the whole time.

So yeah, I cried like a baby. I think that would've happened no matter what, knowing it was the end.

It wasn't as bad as I was afraid it would be, so... there's that at least. Low standards for the win. For me Sam and Dean have always been the core of the show, so seeing them together in the end felt right to me. I think Jensen and Jared knocked it out of the park too.

But I do think it was a shitty move to kill Cas off 2 episodes before the finale and not bring him back, he and Misha deserved better than that. And I don't like that any character development seems to have been thrown out the window and the  end given to Sam and Dean felt like something someone would've written about them back in Season 1. Dean died as he expected to, but that's not a good thing, it's just sad. And Sam went and got his "normal life" but that's what he wanted 15 years ago, not now.

But I can live with it. And I can rewatch S1-S5 over and over again. 

I'll miss them.

[Casseiopeia]

5 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Also, no one can convince me that a shirtless Sam followed not long after by a Walker promo wasn't a plea for some SPN family to follow Jared to Walker with a carrot of shirtless Sam

I thought that was to remind us of the tattoo because Sam's son had one on his arm.  Is Dean.2 a hunter?

[gonzosgirrl]

I am still trying to understand Jared's love for this episode. Tragic and hopeful? I guess for Sam? Surely he, as an actor, could see how it might not be so great for Dean? I get being happy for yourself, but being so overtly thrilled in the face of Jensen's (well founded) reservations. Ugh.

Edited November 20, 2020 by gonzosgirrl

[shoetingstar]

I'm even more upset today. I literally cried. Dean deserved better. IDK. I totally get Jensen now.

[gonzosgirrl]

Heh, it just occurred to me that if they did formulate this ending from the moment they pulled the plug, we know now why Garth didn't name one of his kids Dean. 

[Gudzilla]

I felt like Dean should have lived another 7 to 10 years and then died from a heart attack brought on by his atrocious (but delicious) dietary habits.

[tessathereaper]

3 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

See, that was my exact problem with it. Dean only ever saw this ending for himself because he had such low self-worth and felt that a bloody end was all he deserved. But we saw that change in 15.19 as he openly acknowledged for the first time that he was more than just a killer. Yet his death in this episode, right after their victory over God, implies that his first belief was the correct one, that he really was only good for dying young on the job. And that's depressing as hell because it renders any of his progression toward a healthier self-regard utterly moot. He was enjoying life and freedom, he had a new dog, he was still saving people, and he deserved many more years of that.

 

2 hours ago, Dobian said:

I'm in the camp that has no problem with how Dean died.  That is how life happens.  That's why Buster Douglas beat Mike Tyson.  It's why Team USA beat the Russian hockey team in the 1980 Olympics.  Dean had won against Lucifer, God, and a host of other Big Bads, but in the end was killed by an extra in a red suit.  Why?  Because it was a total fluke, a fluke which should have happened about 257 times in previous episodes but didn't, which is probably because God wrote the script.  It is much more believable that Dean died the way he did than that he survived countless times against impossible odds.  It was poetic how he died, and how Dean would have wanted it, with Sam there and the danger averted.

To me that is part of the problem. That's as good as saying Chuck won. The very idea that the only reason The Winchesters were who they was "plot armor" and because "Chuck wrote it", imo, is insulting.  It's insulting to the years that this story most definitely NOT being written as Chuck just pulling their strings for fun, I think it's insulting to the suffering they went through and the KNOWLEDGE and skills they gained from it, that and spending their childhoods and whole lives training and learning and gaining experience.  

I don't find it poetic at all, I find it lazy at best and insulting and disrespectful at worst.  Dean is NOT who he was 15 years ago, he deserved more years of this and IMO that is what would have been poetic. For him to not go out like some chump who was for nothing but cannon fodder and who lived to be wind beneath his little brother's wings because he didn't deserve better.  Neither of the Winchesters needed to die young.  There was absolutely zero reason Dean had to die.  He didn't want to die IMO and he didn't deserve, certainly not like that.  It wasn't unheroic but he deserved better, at least be overwhelmed by massive numbers or something, this was some goon in a bad costume whom he should have been able to handle "handily".  Not plot armor but because Dean is super experienced and a great fighter.  And even the kids, IMO, there was zero connection to this case.  The whole situation just felt empty, like it was just an excuse to get Dean off the stage so Sam could go have a "normal life".  

There was no reason it couldn't have been open ended in the sense that they are now free to make their choices and they will and we can imagine them doing so if we want to.  Honestly I think I would have preferred Kripke's "horror movie ending" he said he probably would have given them, whatever it was at least it most likely would have been some rather grand and interesting and fitting for the lives they've lived. 

I just don't find "heaven" to be some peaceful reward no matter how they try to say "oh it's different now".  It just feels like a cop out to me.

This was just going out with a literal whimper.(not on the part of the actors I mean the storytelling) it's like it just petered out.

[shoetingstar]

42 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

 

To me that is part of the problem. That's as good as saying Chuck won. The very idea that the only reason The Winchesters were who they was "plot armor" and because "Chuck wrote it", imo, is insulting.  It's insulting to the years that this story most definitely NOT being written as Chuck just pulling their strings for fun, I think it's insulting to the suffering they went through and the KNOWLEDGE and skills they gained from it, that and spending their childhoods and whole lives training and learning and gaining experience.  

I don't find it poetic at all, I find it lazy at best and insulting and disrespectful at worst.  Dean is NOT who he was 15 years ago, he deserved more years of this and IMO that is what would have been poetic. For him to not go out like some chump who was for nothing but cannon fodder and who lived to be wind beneath his little brother's wings because he didn't deserve better.  Neither of the Winchesters needed to die young.  There was absolutely zero reason Dean had to die.  He didn't want to die IMO and he didn't deserve, certainly not like that.  It wasn't unheroic but he deserved better, at least be overwhelmed by massive numbers or something, this was some goon in a bad costume whom he should have been able to handle "handily".  Not plot armor but because Dean is super experienced and a great fighter.  And even the kids, IMO, there was zero connection to this case.  The whole situation just felt empty, like it was just an excuse to get Dean off the stage so Sam could go have a "normal life".  

There was no reason it couldn't have been open ended in the sense that they are now free to make their choices and they will and we can imagine them doing so if we want to.  Honestly I think I would have preferred Kripke's "horror movie ending" he said he probably would have given them, whatever it was at least it most likely would have been some rather grand and interesting and fitting for the lives they've lived. 

I just don't find "heaven" to be some peaceful reward no matter how they try to say "oh it's different now".  It just feels like a cop out to me.

This was just going out with a literal whimper.(not on the part of the actors I mean the storytelling) it's like it just petered out.

I agree with every bit of this! Nearly exactly what I'm feeling. 

 

[KayCordingly]

Well, before I get into this thread, let me just organize my thoughts.

First of all, it was better than I had anticipated. I'm happy with it. Old school hunt. No overpowered supernatural beings stepping in to do the boys' work. Just the brothers working a case. And even after Dean's death, I appreciate how the rest of the episode focused on the brothers, with the supporting roles of bobby & Sam's son being supportive.

LOVED the old school feel of the pie fest, "vampire mimes", John's journal, etc.

You guys are going to hate me, but I wasn't really effected by Dean's death scene. I think I'm just numb to it. I was like "...and if you look to your left, you'll see THIS fucking scene again." Poor wifey was bawling though; she did NOT like what they did to Dean! I did like how Dean went out though. Not incompetence, nothing stupid; just an honest heat-of-the-action accident. 

What did effect me was Sam's depression afterward. I don't know if it's because it was relatable or what. But I did tear up when he kept spacing out, and especially when he didn't even notice the dog trying to get his attention.

But then the story moved on, and I pretty much enjoyed the rest of the episode. I liked that Sam named his son Dean, and that they showed that he had an anti-possession tattoo. I especially liked that Bobby added "with Cas' help" when explaining to Dean what Jack did to heaven, because that implies that Jack saved him from the Empty.

I would have liked to have seen Eileen, but I'm assuming that' a covid thing. In an ideal world, we would have seen Dean & Sam reunited with Mary & John. Or at least heard Cas use Baby's radio to say "Welcome home, Dean". But overall, I think it could have been much worse.

19 hours ago, Res said:

I really wish they hadn't used the choir version of "Carry On".  It pulled me out of the story every time they did it.

I was okay with that because it was from another episode. I HATED the pop/hip-hop or whatever version that was playing when Dean drove onto the bridge though.

[tessathereaper]

3 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

The ending felt rushed.   A lot of dicking around this season just to have a rushed final episode. 

And oh by the way, the writers could have thrown me a bone and had the dog end up in heaven at the end as well.   Just the pet lover in me, but I don't think that is too much to ask.

Having the boys both end up in heaven isn't a bad thing, but how the story was written to get them there, yikes.

That's what Jensen said.  He said he thought they could have gotten to the ending in a different way.

[tessathereaper]

3 hours ago, Myrelle said:

So I pretty much bawled my eyes out when I read this.

Dean died an Unsung Hero.

That's basically it.

And maybe that's how Jensen made the best of it.

That seems like something he would do since, obviously, no one would listen to him.

 

 

 

They should have listened to him. Seems to me he wasn't too close to it, more like no one else in the writers room was was close enough.  I mean heck even Kripke in that interview was basically like "well after they told me, I thought about it for a few days and seeing as I couldn't come up with anything better I was like OK go ahead"  Basically no one really tried. 

Dabb clearly didn't because I think a 5 year old could come up with something better.  There was barely a plot, there was no development, IMO it just felt empty and meaningless, except for Dean's death scene, which was purely due to the acting, Jensen really killed that scene, gave me chills through all the messy sobbing I was doing and then the scene at the end on the bridge and then with all the crew, that was really nice.  I mean I blame the writers for this completely(and producers),

I don't blame the actors, I don't blame the crew.  They deserve to be proud despite what Dabb did to the end of the show.

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

I thought that was to remind us of the tattoo because Sam's son had one on his arm.  Is Dean.2 a hunter?

It's seems weird that the wildly loyal audience needs a reminder that Sam  has anti possession tattoo to realize that is what was on Nephew Dean.

[Dobian]

1 hour ago, KayCordingly said:

Well, before I get into this thread, let me just organize my thoughts.

First of all, it was better than I had anticipated. I'm happy with it. Old school hunt. No overpowered supernatural beings stepping in to do the boys' work. Just the brothers working a case. And even after Dean's death, I appreciate how the rest of the episode focused on the brothers, with the supporting roles of bobby & Sam's son being supportive.

LOVED the old school feel of the pie fest, "vampire mimes", John's journal, etc.

You guys are going to hate me, but I wasn't really effected by Dean's death scene. I think I'm just numb to it. I was like "...and if you look to your left, you'll see THIS fucking scene again." Poor wifey was bawling though; she did NOT like what they did to Dean! I did like how Dean went out though. Not incompetence, nothing stupid; just an honest heat-of-the-action accident. 

What did effect me was Sam's depression afterward. I don't know if it's because it was relatable or what. But I did tear up when he kept spacing out, and especially when he didn't even notice the dog trying to get his attention.

But then the story moved on, and I pretty much enjoyed the rest of the episode. I liked that Sam named his son Dean, and that they showed that he had an anti-possession tattoo. I especially liked that Bobby added "with Cas' help" when explaining to Dean what Jack did to heaven, because that implies that Jack saved him from the Empty.

I also liked the old school feel of the episode, which called back to the old days when it was all about cutting heads off and setting bones on fire (when was the last time they ever set bones on fire to solve a case, 2010?).

[Dobian]

I find it ironic that people are upset that Dean died young, when more than any other show in history, Supernatural has made it abundantly clear that dead isn't dead.  Heaven is a real, tangible place where you can experience all the earthly pleasures, drive your car, eat your pies, drink your beer, and read your Busty Asian magazines.  and it's at least as big as Canada.  😄 We have seen people die and come back so many times on this show, it lessens the impact for me anyway when someone dies.  Yes, Dean died, which only means that he was retired from the game on earth.

I don't think Chuck writing the books of Sam and Dean diminishes what they did.  I don't want to get too much into free will, but if you side with the argument that there is no cause and effect, then all Chuck was doing was writing what was inevitable, not dictating it, because he could see all and knew what was going to happen.  That's what prophets do.  Chuck was an all-knowing prophet.  I have full confidence that everything Sam and Dean did over 15 years, they earned.

Edited November 21, 2020 by Dobian

[bethy]

I don't know that I have much to add after seeing the finale. I enjoyed the easiness/lightness of the boys in the early scene with Dean cuddling the dog (and the dog bowls at the end of his bed) and Sam actually cooking breakfast for them both. I liked the scene with them discussing the case over the Impala with the journal and Dean excited about the Mime-vamps. For me, the fact that for the most part it was just the two of them (and Bobby), was really lovely. I was actually pleased that we didn't see Cas again. He had his story and his ending and it was fitting to me that it did end as it began, with just Dean and Sam.  

[Slovenly Muse]

I've got to hand this to a show I stopped respecting a long time ago: I've grieved more for Dean Winchester today than I have for any other fictional character I've ever watched die.

I get the complaints that Dean didn't get a "hero's" death, but I'm kinda ok with that. Dean has died many times, and they've all been "heroic" and self-sacrificial... he's thrown his life (and soul) away countless times to protect others, and because he believed his life was less valuable than theirs. He's already had his big hero's death, multiple times. But this time, it was different. He didn't die deliberately throwing himself between those kids and certain death, or because he gave up and refused help thinking he wasn't worth saving... this time, it was just the regular misfortune that happens on a hunt, and he knew he wasn't going to survive, but he fought for every minute he could get, to tell Sam what he needed to say and what Sam needed to hear, so that he could go on his own terms. This might be the only time he's died NOT believing he deserved it, or that he was expendable, or that the world would be better off without him. This time, he got to die at his brother's side, knowing for certain he did good (saving those kids), that he and Sam were free (and Sam was actually going to be ok without him, no longer in need of Dean's protection, no more demons, angels, or deities pulling his strings), and that he was loved (No, Sam didn't say it the way Cas did, but it was agonizingly clear, and they've never really needed words anyway). I honestly never thought I could find a Winchester death this affecting, since it happens so damn often, but it seems they got me despite myself, no matter how stupid the journey was to get here.

Regardless of the exact manner of his death, I just keep thinking about the hole that Dean has left in the world: A young man named after him, who was surely raised on the the stories of Dean's feats, and is now the sole bearer of that enormous legacy. A bunker left dark and shuttered, just waiting for a new generation of hunters to stumble across it, wonder at the lives of the people who used to live there, try on Dean's robe and call it "the dead guy robe." The community of hunters who saw the Winchesters as legends, and will certainly be telling wilder and wilder stories about Dean after his death (it's my head canon that Jody, Donna, and all their other living hunter friends threw a massive wake for Dean, which Sam politely declined to attend). A black '67 Chevy Impala likely now owned and maintained by a new Dean Winchester, possibly still hunting the way she should be... Even though it was unsaid, or not shown, it's all undeniably there in the fabric of this universe, and the more I think about it, the more stuff emerges, the more I realize Dean has left behind. It comes over me in waves, breaking my heart all over again, when I think back on the complex history of this show. And even though they may not have had the budget, or the Covid safety measures, or the creative capacity to put it all on the screen, for me it is no less present or powerful. This episode sucked, but, it was really just a formality anyway. We know what Dean and Sam meant to us and to their world. We understand what it means for them to finally be at peace together, and what it means for those (of us) left behind to live in a world without them. It was so poorly executed, but fuck, I'll take it. The legacy of these characters was always going to be bigger than the show would be able to do justice to.

[bethy]

I also really liked seeing Sam mourn the death of his brother. We saw some of that with Mystery Spot, but season 8 Sam spoiled all that for me. So, while I thought Dean's death scene went on a little long, I found myself really affected by Sam's grief. It seemed clear to me that though Sam went on, he never truly recovered from the loss of Dean.

Edited November 21, 2020 by bethy

[KayCordingly]

16 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

They didn't even make the hunt feel like it was important, it was impersonal.  I don't actually see any poetry in it, I see lazy, lazy Dabb who just didn't care.  He's had 15 years of character growth, while I don't think Dean ever would have settled down to an "apple pie life" I think there was plenty more he could do while living.

And you know the worst part is that they even gave themselves the perfect opportunity to make it important and personal. All they had to do was find a way to make Sam & Dean recognize the vampire Jenny ahead of time (like having them see her on a security cam or something), and have them talk about it being an unfinished case from long ago. Boom, instant connection and added weight to their last case together.

[ILoveReading]

I don't have a problem with Dean dying.  Deans' story having a tragic ending almost seemed inevitable.    My problem was this hunt and in this way.

It was the FIRST hunt after God supposedly stopped writing their story.   What kind of message does that send about Dean and his legacy as a hunter? 

To make matter worse the show reduced hunting to an after school special that parents can let their teens participate in.   Newbies who never hunted before lasted longer than Dean, supposedly.

And why vamps.  Even more reduced to milk run hunts for newbies.  Why not put a little bit of effort into find a monster the guys never heard of before and didn't have all knowledge.  That way if its a tragic accident it doesn't' stick out like a sore thumb. 

Jensen nailed Dean's death scene, but the length bugged a bit.  It reminds me when during s9 when he was stabbed and Jensen shortened the speech.  It was also kind of annoying that that they had no budget for fake blood,because Dean should have been coughing it up.  But aside from that I didn't like that Sam couldn't see past his own pain long enough to see how much physical pain Dean was in, and Dean should never had to tell Sam to tell him it was okay to let go.  Sam should have done that on his own.  Sam never had to tell his son that.  His son just knew. 

I know that Dean's hunter funeral was probably one of the things we lost because of Covid, but there were ways to work around it. Give Sam some dialogue before the music cue.   Have Sam put a a stack of thick papers on Dean's body and say that was  list off all the people they saved.  (F Dabb, and his it was all Chuck).  Have Jody and Donna on zoom saying they were sorry they were stuck in whereever and they were sorry about Dean.  Have Garth call Sam.  We've seen Jensen do ADR from Austin.  I think Brianna lives in Vancouver so she wouln't have had to quarantine.  Heck, hire a local Vancouver actor to play random Dean hunter friend number 1.  Or when Sam was with his son, instead of them studying so Sam with a photo album and articles about the people they saved so little Dean knows why he was named after his uncle.

Or even have Jared to the voice over for the ep and we find out in the end he's telling his son about his amazing uncle.

I agree with @Bergamot  It seems like Dean was forgotten by everyone but Sam. 

 

Edited November 21, 2020 by ILoveReading

[Terese]

Most negative reactions I have are more about the season than the finale. The finale simply fit the final piece into a very uninspired, rather vindictive story.

My principal problem was with recreating Heaven as this perfect place without want or cares. An eternity without struggles or accomplishments, sadness or joy and little do but visit others. How does this literal eternal peace satisfy anyone, especially Sam and Dean. Or Bobby, who feared a rocking chair, is now content with sitting on a stoop drinking a beer for ETERNITY. It's a child's understanding on Heaven.

Looks fine on the surface, perhaps; but like everything else with this season, you barely scratch beneath the surface and it falls apart. An eternity of meaningless, quasi-existence where you get everything you want sounds like Hell.