S04.E10: War

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

Me too. I'm not interested in humanizing her in any way. I've hated her all along, and I'm not even British.

It just seems so typical of her whole outlook on life and government that she'd consider her own setbacks important and noble while patting herself on the back for kneecapping everyone else in the name of self-reliance. 

[Umbelina]

9 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

Me too. I'm not interested in humanizing her in any way. I've hated her all along, and I'm not even British.

I dislike her politics, but she certainly was (and IS) not alone in her Ayn Rand approach.  However, I do appreciate that the show also portrayed her personal work ethic, and frankly, as the first woman PM ever, dealing almost completely with a male dominated field?  I do have admiration for that.

6 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

It just seems so typical of her whole outlook on life and government that she'd consider her own setbacks important and noble while patting herself on the back for kneecapping everyone else in the name of self-reliance. 

Yes, far too common.  The show certainly hinting that at least part of her motivation in supporting apartheid was to help out her favorite child.  I haven't cared enough to investigate whether or not that was true, or rather, how much impact that may have had on her decisions there.  

She seemed focused on the economy only, not the impact her decisions had on the non rich British people.  I'm also not that interested in that side of things, I care more about the actual impact on citizens than the overall budget.  I do wonder if any of it helped Britain (as a whole.)

[Booger666]

On 12/6/2020 at 12:26 AM, colormeblue said:

The royal family sounds pretty horrible, not because they're awful people but because they're clueless.

Totally agree.  Especially the queen.  A lot of posters liked her smack down of Charles, but I found it annoying.  She admits to being an ostrich refusing to acknowledge the problem for a long time, doesn’t approach Charles or Diana directly but listens to third party comments (from likely jealous and bitter Anne / Margaret), and refuses to make herself available when they need to talk.  When Phillip had a terrible time in the marriage she sends him off on a ship for months to be free of the marriage, it’s royal entrapments and the press.  Diana got a few days in NY under a microscope after being humiliated about her mental health.  I think the scene of Charles with 10+ people on one side of the table and Diana on the other with just 2 is why so many people side with Diana even though it takes 2 in a marriage - the power balance was always hugely in Charles’ favor and she was at a complete disadvantage.

[Adiba]

Just finished the series--this episode had too much suspenseful, ominous background music for me--enough already.

I want to have empathy for Charles--he is a flawed human being (as the rest of us are) --but show Charles makes it so difficult. What a miserable bastard.

It's not Diana's fault that you are unhappy, Charles. You made your choices within the circumstances life dealt you. That's how it is for all of us.

[Razzberry]

The 2020 season as a whole has been disappointing and largely forgettable for me.  This could be because I still remember the tsunami of media coverage surrounding Diana even here in the States, and the more current the show gets the less I'm interested.   From rewatching the older episodes which are quite cinematic It seems there have been budget cuts,  the long lag-time is an issue, and the automatic cast changes are off-putting, but I'll see y'all back here for season 5.

[Roseanna]

On 12/21/2020 at 5:02 PM, Booger666 said:

A lot of posters liked her smack down of Charles, but I found it annoying.  She admits to being an ostrich refusing to acknowledge the problem for a long time, doesn’t approach Charles or Diana directly but listens to third party comments (from likely jealous and bitter Anne / Margaret), and refuses to make herself available when they need to talk.  When Phillip had a terrible time in the marriage she sends him off on a ship for months to be free of the marriage, it’s royal entrapments and the press.

Had Philip any obligation to make the marriage work? After all, she had work to do, he had none. He drove away in his car with his friend Parker to have fun, leaving her to spend the evenings alone. On the top of all, he had a nerve to make a jealous scene because of her friendship with Porchey!

As an idea, sending Philip away wasn't bad at all (except that it was also a long separation from his young children). Despite her finding the photo of ballerina, many things showed that their relationship became better (his reaction to her note "remember you have a family", looking at him in South Pole she literary ate him with her eyes, their Christmas messages to each other). But doubts about his infidelity, based on Parker's letter to Thursday Club (or whatever the name was), which were made even more terrible about rumors, led her to a decision to save at least at least a formal modus vivendi. That damaged their relationship for long, but she was too dignified to make a scene, unlike Charles and Diana.

As for Charles and Diana's marriage, let's remember that none of us have the duty, or the right for that matter, to meddle with our children's marriage: they marry and divorce as they like, and we are wise to keep our own counsel and not to take sides.  

Elizabeth has a double role that can't be envied: besides a mother and mother-in-law, she is the boss of the firm. To her, the duty to monarchy comes always first and her temperament and Christian values suited well for her role. On the other hand, she isn't good with dealing personal problems. Like her mother, she is unwilling to interfere in time, instead she hopes that problems disappear by themselves over time.

I doubt that anything she, or Philip for that matter, could do would have saved Charles and Diana's marriage that was doomed from the beginning. If Philip had had a better relationship with his son, they would have talked instead of his writing a letter and Charles wouldn't got a misconception that he was gotten an ultimatum. Better still, Philip would have said: "Are you quite sure? If you aren't, let it be." 

Elizabeth's only fault was that she was against divorce too long but that was natural because of her age, experience and values.

[dovegrey]

On 12/9/2020 at 11:19 PM, blackwing said:

I do agree with him that everyone’s role in the family takes a backseat to the Queen, but I disagree with him with his characterisation that she wanted to be the most important.  I think Diana had a good heart and truly loved people.   She didn’t hug the unwanted kid with AIDS for a photo op or to get more publicity.  She did it because she was a truly compassionate person.

All I could think during that scene and his speech about the Crown is...eventually, everyone's role in the family would be to take a backseat to the King, to protect, serve, and uphold Charles, as the Sovereign. It all sounds great and sacrificial-dutiful when the crown is on Elizabeth's head, but, if I'm Diana in that moment, and after having suffered through all of that verbal and emotional abuse from Prince Charles and his whining about his OTL Camiillllaaa, what Philip said would only cement my decision to leave. The bloom's off that rose.

[methodwriter85]

On 1/4/2021 at 2:29 AM, Razzberry said:

 It seems there have been budget cuts

Yeah, I'm assuming that's why they didn't even bother trying to depict the 1981 marriage. 

[Camera One]

They really went full-monster with Charles in this one.  I enjoyed seeing Diana in New York, and given this one-sided narrative, it's easy to root for her.  It was great that she visited that hospital with the AIDS patients.  I wish we got to see more of Diana's relationship with Sarah Ferguson.  It's clear they excluded Sarah from the story to make sure Diana was portrayed as utterly alone.  The actors who played Charles and Diana were great, but they really covered no new ground in a lot of their screentime since they were portraying their entire marriage as a sham.

It was nice to end with conclusion of the Thatcher era.  I agree with the above that skipping the end of the Cold War was disappointing.  

I can't believe there are no more new episodes to watch, and I've caught up.  I'm a little apprehensive about having to get used to a whole new crop of actors all over again when I was beginning to enjoy this group.  In some ways, I feel like I don't know who these characters truly are despite seeing them for 2 seasons.

[Tyro49]

I know this show is not always accurate, but why would they depict Charles as yelling at Diana over her "stunts" and visits in New York when her itinerary was all planned out beforehand and well known to the royal officials who had approved it?

[qtpye]

2 minutes ago, Tyro49 said:

I know this show is not always accurate, but why would they depict Charles as yelling at Diana over her "stunts" and visits in New York when her itinerary was all planned out beforehand and well known to the royal officials who had approved it?

It is the same reason that he was angry at her Uptown Girl performance, even though he himself has performed in that very hall to raise money for charity. Diana is so beloved by the public it actually makes Camilla sad because she knows that she can not hope to compete with that type of adulation.

Diana outshines everyone in the Royal Family because of her connection to the public when she is supposed to be a quiet solder holding up the firm.

I have a feeling that next season will not be so one sided and we will probably see a more calculated side of Diana

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Tyro49 said:

I know this show is not always accurate, but why would they depict Charles as yelling at Diana over her "stunts" and visits in New York when her itinerary was all planned out beforehand and well known to the royal officials who had approved it?

In this particular case, her hugging the little boy probably wasn't planned, so the fact that it was suddenly all over the news as a great thing came across to him as a stunt. Iow, instead of just going to the hospital like she was supposed to, she made a spectacle of herself by hugging the boy etc.

[PeterPirate]

2 hours ago, qtpye said:

I have a feeling that next season will not be so one sided and we will probably see a more calculated side of Diana

Back in the day, an actor named Anthony Edwards hosted Saturday Night Live and did a hilarious imitation of Diana giving an interview.  However, I have not been able to find it online.  

[Notwisconsin]

On 11/17/2020 at 11:11 PM, Nire said:

What year did this episode end?  I was thinking 1990 or 1991 but I felt like all the children looked fairly old and wouldn't Eugenie have been a baby or a toddler?

I liked the season overall.  I feel like they managed to cover a lot in a very short period of time.

1990. Thatcher was thrown out in December 1990. Anne had some kids who were actually around the age of those portrayed.

Remember, As to the royals outside the primary line of succession, they don't count. I'm glad they said that. Only superfans give a darn about Sarah Chatto, her brother, and all the Gloucesters and Kents. The Royals outside the Queen's aunt and her mother were kicked off the civil list in the '80s sometime. The only royals that matter are those who wear or will wear the crown.

[3jt]

;

Edited March 15, 2021 by 3jt
said better by others

[Magnumfangirl]

This entire season felt like a parody.  Charles as a cartoon villain was ridiculous.  Everybody knows he is about 85% to blame for the mess of a marriage, but how about a little nuance and subtly?  Peter Morgan's The Queen felt like a parody to me too, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

[Fool to cry]

On 2/20/2021 at 11:33 AM, PeterPirate said:

Back in the day, an actor named Anthony Edwards hosted Saturday Night Live and did a hilarious imitation of Diana giving an interview.  However, I have not been able to find it online.  

I remember it. It was shocking how much she looked like her with just a wig! He did all the sad expressions. I don't know how they came up with him impersonating her. I guess after her death it wasnt shown as much.

They make Charles' secretary Edward Aldeane look like an weasely asshole toady but he had resigned in 1985 years before the episode took place.

I like the Queen doing an impression of Thatcher.

[greekmom]

Rewatched the episode just for that scene between Charles and Diana about how she hurt poor Camilla (sarcasm there).  I wonder how real that scene was. I mean we know that cannot be confirmed unless Diana left some writing or a diary but Charles is a fool to think that Diana should have taken a back seat to his mistress or respect her feelings when neither Charles or Camilla respected Diana's feelings or position.

One interesting note is that even though Charles and Camilla are in a relationship she still called him Sir.

 

[qtpye]

On 12/11/2021 at 11:34 AM, greekmom said:

Rewatched the episode just for that scene between Charles and Diana about how she hurt poor Camilla (sarcasm there).  I wonder how real that scene was. I mean we know that cannot be confirmed unless Diana left some writing or a diary but Charles is a fool to think that Diana should have taken a back seat to his mistress or respect her feelings when neither Charles or Camilla respected Diana's feelings or position.

One interesting note is that even though Charles and Camilla are in a relationship she still called him Sir.

 

Camilla really knew how to play him well. Those are the little touches that he would just love. Also, the way she begged (please stop pursuing me, sir) when Diana was an amazing success with the Americans when they expected her to fall flat on her face was also quite masterful.

I have read in several books that Charles and Camilla picked Diana because they considered her a little mouse that would be easy to control.

They never expected her to evolve into an international superstar that totally outshone the Prince.

[aghst]

On 2/7/2021 at 11:06 PM, methodwriter85 said:

Yeah, I'm assuming that's why they didn't even bother trying to depict the 1981 marriage. 

Yeah I was surprised they didn't depict the wedding, just up to the day of.

Season 4 is the only season I watched.  Don't follow the royal family at all but it was impossible to avoid coverage of the royal family, especially all the Diana and Charles drama.

Charles seemed like a snob before I watched this show.  Well he is still kind of pedantic about plants and such.

They were already having arguments before the wedding so they really don't show why Diana went through with it when he was ignoring her and seeing Camilla all the time even after their engagement.  At least as the show depicted it.

Then the petty way he was upset that she got all the attention on her Australian tour and later her triumph on stage or the NY tour.

But was it Anne or Philip who predicted that he wouldn't react well to her getting more adulation and popularity than him?

While they showed Diana being miserable and alone in Buckingham Palace, puking all the time, didn't she bring huge attention?  A lot of it may have been sensational and tabloid stuff but it's clear that popular support was very important to Elizabeth.  For instance, that Australian tour wasn't just some publicity tour.  The Australians didn't want royalty or maybe even belong to the Commonwealth?

(I like the act\or who played the Australian PM was also the lead in Rake.)

But the tour was such a hit, especially how they loved Diana, that Hawke said they couldn't shake free from the British royalty, much as he wanted to..

I don't know if the money which the UK govt. gives to the royal family was ever in danger of being pulled (or whether they need it at all) but usually in debates about the value of the royal family, that money is often central to arguments for/against.

 

My sense was that Diana was a superstar at least from that fairy tale wedding on.  I remember some claims that it alone was responsible for how huge an industry the bridezilla weddings had become.

So did the royal family pressure them to keep the marriage going because of her popularity?  Maybe they didn't want tabloid stories but it seemed they raise the profile of the royal family so much that it boosted tourism.  Probably silenced the critics who questioned the money the govt. gave them.

 

 

[Lonesome Rhodes]

I felt like Elizabeth having had her fill of Charles and Diana draaaaaama.  Enough!  Others have written about other events/happenings that Morgan ignored in service to this absurd marriage story.  Not saying it is unjustifiable.  Clearly, it is.  I just hoped for a different path of the season.

My take in real time was that The Crown haaaaated Diana's popularity but she more feared it.  I am a bit surprised that this piece of the story was not examined.  The show took the route of Diana as "annoyance" and "insufficient and ignorant."  I say they were terrified of her beloved status worldwide.  We did see their base opinion of Charles.  He was no match for her in the public arena.  So, this season got it half-right, imo.

The re-imagination of the grand staircase at the Palace as a New York ballroom, location was probably the chintziest art direction of the series.  The CGI of the Twin Towers of the World Trade Center was a nice touch.

One thing which was introduced in this ep was infighting amongst the staffs supporting Charles and Diana.  I had been wondering about any potential fissures and taking sides generally amongst the servants.  Really good bit by Morgan in this season finale.  

One nitpick - the seating on the Concordes were not at all plush.  They were as plain as can be.  The cabin depicted as Diana flew to NYC was not close to the utilitarian real ones.

Overall, any new seasons would be welcomed.  

 

[nasir jones]

On 11/17/2020 at 3:40 PM, Atlanta said:

They really did make Charles satan in this season.

That seemed to be the prevailing thought on this board, although I’d guess that might’ve been the belief of some before they watched any season 4 episodes. I’ve always felt that the show was sympathetic of the characters who’ve been asked to deny their chance at love (Charles, Margaret, George) even as it showed their negative behaviors. Plus, we’re expecting Charles to do things that few people in his family seem capable of doing… stay faithful, show warmth,  express his feelings constructively, etc. This character is largely the result of people who’re colder than an ice bucket in an Artic wind storm and had zero experience as Royal parents. Even in this ep, Charles finally summons the “courage” to tell his mother that he wants out of the marriage (well, his version that puts all of the blame on Diana’s dalliances) and his father barges in and interrupts him without a second thought. While Charles blaming Diana for Camilla being upset was major chutzpah, that’s what might happen when people feel boxed into situations that they’re entirely unhappy with. They can explode in irrational, unforgivable ways.

I don’t see Charles as “Satan” in this season any more than I blame Diana for seeking comfort and affection in the arms of other men. I’d place a lot of the blame on the people who, due to experience (QE and PP), should’ve helped the couple instead of sticking their head in the sand. But they seem to live by a “We were miserable, so you should expect to be miserable and get over it” credo. People are people. No one is Satan here and no one is blameless.

[Spartan Girl]

I’m still a little proud that I nominated Charles screaming at Diana for making feel bad for last year’s WTF Moment Primetimer Award and it won. And it was well-earned.

Hell, it’s been over a year, and I’m STILL not over it. Imagine being so self-centered that you can’t see your wife hugging an AIDS child patient and see it as anything except a slight to your mistress.

[andromeda331]

14 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

I’m still a little proud that I nominated Charles screaming at Diana for making feel bad for last year’s WTF Moment Primetimer Award and it won. And it was well-earned.

Hell, it’s been over a year, and I’m STILL not over it. Imagine being so self-centered that you can’t see your wife hugging an AIDS child patient and see it as anything except a slight to your mistress.

Neither am I. That was such a horrible scene.

[truthful]

To me, season 4, like the other seasons, was a criticism of the rigidity of the Monarchy and how the system with its  outdated values destroys lives and psyches. How both Charles and Diana really were just pawns in the game that is the Royal family. With Diana getting the more sympathetic portrayal because she was younger than Charles, whose cold indifference to his wife was much more chilling compared to the Emmy bait type yelling.

Apparently Charles back then had to marry a virgin. So even if Camilla had wanted to marry him she couldn't because she of course wasn't a virgin. I don't really understand the obsession with virginity in regards to Charles and any potential future wives of his. But that was the system and he was stuck with it. Makes me think his best time to get married would have been in his early 20s, because by the time he married Diana the age gap was just far too big, and just one of a thousand reasons why their marriage did not work. Makes me wonder if his family shouldn't have been more forceful in making him marry a bit early. Though I suppose if they don't find it awful about the virginity thing, they certainly are not going to care about the age gap.

Interesting how it seemed Charles was way more into Camilla then her to him. It was almost like she was to him a light toward the end of the tunnel. Like I can imagine at first he was happy to just have an affair with her, but as his own marriage crumbled he started to put more importance to his relationship with Camilla compared to her.

I was horrified about the Queen's dressing down of Charles because it represented her unyielding and unbending devotion to an archaic and stuffy system. Yes, there are more important things going on then an awful marriage between two rich people, but that is irrelevant because both Charles and Diana are both human who have been trapped by the system.

[Quickbeam]

For me the emotional heart of this episode was the queen and Thatcher with the Order of Merit. That was so moving and both OC and GA acted the crap out of it. I’ve not really liked OC much and look forward to Imelda’s turn. But this scene was very touching. 

[andromeda331]

On 2/11/2024 at 3:25 PM, Quickbeam said:

For me the emotional heart of this episode was the queen and Thatcher with the Order of Merit. That was so moving and both OC and GA acted the crap out of it. I’ve not really liked OC much and look forward to Imelda’s turn. But this scene was very touching. 

I agree. I didn't like either one by this point and was surprised by how good it was. Olivia and Gillian did a great job.