S15.E15: Gimme Shelter

[Aeryn13]

15 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

AKA anything that doesn't fit now can be poo-poohed with the stroke of a pen as 'bad writing'. Canon is meaningless. The whole 15 years is being rendered meaningless.

That makes it all the easier for me to disregard it completely. I had my problems with even Kripke`s tenure, as well as Gamble`s and Carver`s but that doesn`t mean any hack with an ego complex can just meta those out of existance. 

To focus on the positive for this episode:  last.ever.Perez.ep.EVER.  Yayyyyy.

Also, Jensen and Emily Swallows still have good chem IMO. If you ignore the scene content.

Now for everything else:  Jack is Poochie as written by Homer Simpson. "If Poochie isn`t onscreen, all the other characters should ask: where is Poochie."

I guess the "reveal" that he will die (if only, show, if only) is shocking and meaningful if one thought this and every other world revolves around him. Otherwise, not so much.

And yet more on Cas complete obsession with him. 

Their 90 % of the episode was supremely boring and stolen by a guest star.

Trying to just declare Mary was a good character is not how it works, writers. The audience are not your badly written characters and therefore not beholden to your empty declarations. Your job would have been to write her as a good character when she was on.

The Winchester brothers are on this show at this point because? What is the reason of spending screentime on them? Nostalgia? Contracts? That has nothing to do with the story.

[ahrtee]

 

1 hour ago, Smad said:

But the point I'm trying to make is, no Chuck and Amara means literally no more creation. Chuck could conceivably be stopped or neutralized without being killed which would keep this last universe alive. The plan however is to kill him (+Amara) which would mean the end for this last universe. Once that happened, nothingness will be all that there is. Possibly for eternity. Is that better than destroying this last universe but with the possibility alive that creation could be done again?

Well, if what Amara said about their coming into existence creating the Big Bang, then they didn't create the universe (or at least, not deliberately) therefore they can't really destroy it.  If Chuck created the other AUs, then he can wipe those out, but not the original.  

[gonzosgirrl]

26 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

And yet more on Cas complete obsession with him. 

This is so inexplicable to me. I mean, I suppose they are trying to make Cas 'human' with this obsessive need for love and 'family' (sorry Winchesters, you just ain't cutting it), but from the moment fetus!Jack mind-whammied him and he left Dean and Sam unconscious (and unprotected) on the ground, his character has never been the same. As much as I was already disenchanted with the show, I actually felt something when Lucifer literally stabbed him in the back in the S12 finale, if only for Dean's loss. Now, I am awaiting the moment he dies and I don't have to see or hear his whiny, self-pitying ass any more.

 

32 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

To focus on the positive for this episode:  last.ever.Perez.ep.EVER.  Yayyyyy.

Oooh, I hadn't thought of that. Yayyyyy indeed!

[Bobcatkitten]

Kudos to Jensen and Emily - that scene was amazing. My one issue is he didn't imagine that Mary was a good mom. She WAS a good mom. She made him food and read him stories and cut the bread off his crusts. He didn't imagine those things. 

Also, why was that girl killing those people? I completely didn't understand that. 

[Bergamot]

58 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

In s 11 one dies it is over. Both dies everything is fine. This is why they had to kill Anara when Chuck was dying. THIS IS WHY THE PLAN NOW HAD TO INCLUDE MILLING ANARA TOO. They went over it again last night however it would be easy to miss because the episode, the plan, Jack... sigh... meh...

Yes, this is true. Their original information was that if Chuck went, Amara had to go as well, to keep everything in balance. Nothing about matter and anti-matter resulting in the end of the universe. So I don't really get this "OMG they are trusting what cosmic entities tell them, how incredibly stupid they are!!!!!" complaint.  Sure, the writers could change things now to say that destroying both Chuck and Amara would instead destroy the universe.  But I don't see why the Winchesters should be castigated as idiots just because they are going with their previous understanding of the way it worked. Whatever they want to try might not work, but they will figure it out. Unless the show actually does end with the destruction of the universe.

[Casseiopeia]

9 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

My one issue is he didn't imagine that Mary was a good mom. She WAS a good mom. She made him food and read him stories and cut the bread off his crusts. He didn't imagine those things. 

I'm guessing that the writers meant that we imagined those things.

[Casseiopeia]

16 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

Kudos to Jensen and Emily - that scene was amazing.

Also from Emily...

 

[tennisgurl]

9 hours ago, Bergamot said:

It just strikes me as funny that this is yet another thing that the writers are trying to ret-con. Hey guys, you CAN'T ret-con what my objection to Mary's character really was, because I'm a real person, not one of your characters. Sorry!

Its like when, after she died, we spent a whole episode going on and on about how awesome she is and what a wonderful loving mother and friend she was, but when they started showing clips of how "wonderful and loving" she was, they had to make up their own new scenes, because there were no clips from the actual show of her being wonderful OR loving. The only clip they gave Dean was her sleeping on him, not exactly showing her being a particularly good presence in his life. We were told over and over about how great she was, instead of being shown how great she was. Oh, speaking of the shows pet characters...

5 hours ago, Terese said:

Finally, I am sick of Jack being in every damn scene even when he isn't. "Where's Jack? How's Jack? Is Jack ok?" 

 

When Jack isn't on screen, people should be asking "Where's Jack?" Then we get

Dean: "Wow. Jack is one outrageous dude!"

Sam: "He's totally in my face!"

Sadly though, I dont think that Jack will Earth because his planet needs him. 

[Smad]

1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

What did she say to him except that express anger over how she was treated. Because that was the storyline.

Twins... one is born before the other.

She confirmed that she smashed up what he created because she hated that he needed more than her. Therefor no big bang was needed for Chuck to create.

1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

In s 11 one dies it is over. Both dies everything is fine. This is why they had to kill Anara when Chuck was dying. THIS IS WHY THE PLAN NOW HAD TO INCLUDE MILLING ANARA TOO. They went over it again last night however it would be easy to miss because the episode, the plan, Jack... sigh... meh...

The end of Season 11 (and things this episode) contradicted what was set up in early S11. They were never twins in the original canon, she was always the big sis with whom it all began. And you are thinking twins in a human sense, not the cosmic sense. For there to be balance, they had to come into existence at exactly the same time. That's the only way for them both to be affected by the others well being. If one of them is older, it means the older sibling can perfectly exist without the younger sibling being alive. That's why it made no sense to me at the end of S11 that Amara would die when God dies. She was the older one (and with cosmic beings older can mean millions of years) which means she had no issue existing without God in the picture. So God dying in S11 should have had no effect on her. However with this twins ret-con (which also ret-cons this Seasons second episode), the end of S11 makes sense. With the established canon back then, the end of S11 didn't make sense.

[Casseiopeia]

3 minutes ago, Smad said:

However with this twins ret-con (which also ret-cons this Seasons second episode), the end of S11 makes sense. With the established canon back then, the end of S11 didn't make sense.

So what you're saying is that Dabb is trying to retcon the mess he made of S11?

[Smad]

30 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

So I don't really get this "OMG they are trusting what cosmic entities tell them, how incredibly stupid they are!!!!!" complaint.

It's stupid because of the new canon that Billie added into the mix this Season. Didn't she say that God weaved himself into the very existence of this universe? Which means that he is part of the universe. What if he is so much a part of it that the universe's existence is contingent on his continued existence? That's something that should be considered by the team when it comes to killing Chuck. But none of them even go there, completely content with whatever Billy tells them. And that's stupid.

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

 

Well, if what Amara said about their coming into existence creating the Big Bang, then they didn't create the universe (or at least, not deliberately) therefore they can't really destroy it.  If Chuck created the other AUs, then he can wipe those out, but not the original.  

Except for the part at the end of S11 when the universe was almost wiped out because God was dying. So there is at least one way the universe can be destroyed - when God dies. We were also told in S11 that Chuck only got down to all out creation after Amara was locked away. There wasn't any mention of a big bang that created the universe. That credit went to God.

[Katy M]

27 minutes ago, Smad said:

It's stupid because of the new canon that Billie added into the mix this Season. Didn't she say that God weaved himself into the very existence of this universe? Which means that he is part of the universe. What if he is so much a part of it that the universe's existence is contingent on his continued existence? That's something that should be considered by the team when it comes to killing Chuck. But none of them even go there, completely content with whatever Billy tells them. And that's stupid.

Nothing Billie says matters.  She said there would be cosmic consequences for breaking the deal in First Blood. She said that if Dean didn't lock himself in a box Michael would use his body to take over.  She says she doesn't interfere.  She said Sam wasn't dead in Red Meat and I completely think he was and she brought him back (OK, I guess what I think doesn't make that one an out and out lie).  And Sam killing Rowena was likely jsut a self-fulfilling prophecy. There was no reason Rowena couldn't have just stabbed herself barring her belief that Sam had to kill her.

[gonzosgirrl]

21 minutes ago, Katy M said:

There was no reason Rowena couldn't have just stabbed herself barring her belief that Sam had to kill her.

And they way they filmed it, she did stab herself. Sam was just holding the weapon.

An interview with Matt Cohen, talking about his ideas about the story and how they informed his directing. I suppose they all really do believe they are making magic here. Sigh. At least he has good things to say about Jensen's acting (along with Emily) in their scenes.

Variety interview (no spoilers)

[catrox14]

I have no idea what the frak that episode was supposed to be. Never has a case been so boring. Never has Steve Bacic been boring until now.

It was like watching an actual episode of "Highway to Heaven" ( which I found to be boring if sweet at times). Then Perez tried to insert some Saw type shit, which IMO has never worked in this show, I guess for shock value? I feel bad for Misha, who is a good actor, as we have seen in past seasons, and who can carry an episode when the writing is there for him. Cas has been reduced to nothing in favor of Jackie Sue and, man, that grates.

At least, there was a fantastic showdown between Dean and Amara. The writing was utter shit and Retcon City and, thankfully, Jensen and Emily made it tense and watchable. It should have been one long unedited scene, including the beginning with Sam, and not switched back  to the stupid case, which might have worked if the case had any parallel to Dean and Amara, which there wasn't really, until the complete rip-off and reuse of Dean's soul bomb arc. Badd is the worst.

I will end on a positive note.

 

 

Jensen brought his A+ game to the scene with he and Amara. His face would change when he thought of Mary in the past and the now. Unfortunately, the writing is still trying to retcon and now canonize the resurrected Mary, and erase what she really did after she was brought back but Jensen sold it to me that Dean isn't buying what Amara was selling bout the "lessons". As to the second part of the confrontation, Jensen clearly remembered that Dean was in Amara's thrall and that he couldn't hurt her when he told her he would never hurt her. Was Dean acting and she bought it? Or did Dean really slip back into that state of mind? Or was Dean not lying to her at all because he won't actually be the one hurting her and she understands that?   All of that was in Jensen's performance and Emily played it IMO, that Amara herself couldn't tell if Dean was lying to her.  And once again, given the writing for  the rest of the episode, did Steve Yockey low key, give a hand to that? Or was that all Jensen and Emily?

 

[Lemuria]

8 hours ago, Terese said:

actually got up and cleaned the kitchen

But Terese, that’s perfect!  Now you qualify to write for the show, just like what’s-her-name. 😉

[Lemuria]

4 hours ago, Bobcatkitten said:

She WAS a good mom. She made him food and read him stories and cut the bread off his crusts. He didn't imagine those things. 

And when he was sick she made him tomato soup and sang to him. 

[tessathereaper]

23 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

And when he was sick she made him tomato soup and sang to him. 

But maybe all that only happened once or twice, you know in between when she was sneaking off to have secret hunts(the life she was so desperate to give up before) and what not, and became exaggerated in his traumatized young mind.    It's as likely a scenarior as anything else.

I mean she didn't leave him alone in hotel rooms, she was better than John but if the Mary who Amara gave back was the "real Mary" he would have known if she didn't die(ie he wouldn't have memorialized the nice things his childhood mind remembered), then she would have sucked too.   She was selfish, cold, self-involved and frankly not remotely interested in her sons lives.  All Dean wanted when she came back was the chance to get to know her as a person and for her to behave like someone who cared, which shouldn't have been that much of a chore for her own children, even if they weren't little kids anymore, and she found even THAT too stifling and did everything she could pretty much the whole time she was back to spent as much time as she could away from them.

Having some nice, somewhat idyllic childhood memories wouldn't have hurt him or anyone, almost everyone has a few childhood memories which a bit idealised, why couldn't Dean be allowed to have them as well.

Edited October 16, 2020 by tessathereaper

[tennisgurl]

Its like they mixed up "flawed but good and well meaning person" with "unlikable cipher who is also pretty stupid" when they were writing Mary. I think what they were going for with Mary was something of a deconstruction of the "perfect warm wonderful mom who dies before the story starts to motivate the heroes" trope, which I actually think is an idea with a lot of potential, and I didn't hate the idea of Mary being brought back. However, Mary ended up being one of the shows most underused and wasted plot threads, and we all know thats really saying something. Mary was basically as much of a plot device as a living person as she was as a dead person, existing to create drama for her family and those around her, make dumb or selfish choices and be manipulated easier than a dog being fooled by the pretend to throw the ball trick. Some of those flaws were deliberate, but some of her worst flaws, especially throwing away her second chance to be with her sons at every opportunity and rarely being there for them in their many times of crisis, I think were accidents. Like, we were supposed to see her wanting to stay in the crappy AU world with her resistance friends as heroic I think, when really it just came off as her caring more about any group of people she could find more than her sons who have devoted their lives to her and her memory, which did not endear me to her at all. She was around, but they never did much with her that was very interesting. She always seemed to be doing anything else other than having meaningful interactions with her sons, as that would actually be interesting. How does Mary feel about her relationship with her sons, who she remembers as small children but are now grown adults? What does that relationship look like when she is now basically the same age as her sons? How does she feel about her husband raising them to be hunters, a lifestyle that she wanted to escape? We get some of that here and there, but its never really explored in any meaningful way, nor do they give her many things to do plot wise that anyone else couldn't have done. She usually just screwed things up or was offscreen while Sam or Dean (usually Dean, her second favorite) begged her to answer her phone while she apparently ignored them. It actually would have been interesting if they said that she really was deliberately avoiding them, because being around them and knowing that she missed so much and they had suffered so much hurt too much, or that she felt guilty about how things turned out for them or about her deal to bring John back and how that almost turned Sam into the anti christ or whatever, and she had an arc about dealing with that, but nope. She gets nothing really meaningful other than being a pawn, then an absentee uncaring mom, and then she just stupidly and pointlessly dies again, offscreen no less, all to create drama for the other characters. Mary was a decent idea, but they did nothing with her besides give Sam and Dean more angst, basically changing nothing about her purpose in the story since episode one. 

Really, how did this help Dean let go of his mom? Now his few nice memories of her are tainted by her crappiness post resurrection, and he has to lose her...again. Thank Amara! 

Edited October 16, 2020 by tennisgurl

[patty1h]

My heart aches because I've been a SPNer for 15 years and this is what I heard during every scene that didn't include Sam or Dean:  "Blah blah blah blah blah blahblah blahblah.   Blah blah blah?  Blah blah blahblah"!    I saw some shapes on my TV screen, one seemed to be wearing a trench coat, but I was too disinterested to acknowledge any of these secondary characters.  I don't care about what Cas or Jack or Billie does at this point - I lost track of what their storyline is.  Even seeing Amara back with the boys made me sad because I didn't like her as soon as we were told that she's God's sister.  Whatever.

I checked out during this episode because at this stage I've lost faith that the ending will be worth the time I've invested all these years.  However, I watch to honor J2's commitment to the show and the fans.

Edited October 16, 2020 by patty1h

[Terese]

10 hours ago, Smad said:

I wonder if Cas or Jack were to tell Sam&Dean the truth about the plan, would one of these idiots finally be able to put 1 and 1 together and figure out it equals 2? Since we now know the plan is for Jack to be a bomb and not new God.

The equation is pretty easy. Billy's (+Empty) plan is to destroy matter (Chuck) and anti-matter (Amara) which means everything in existence gets wiped out and all that will be left is nothing (aka The Empty). And then it might be billions of years until new primordial beings show up. Heck maybe it never happens again.

And of course Jack doesn't want the brothers to know because Winchesters always keep secrets when the fate of the world is at stake. It's a staple of this show. Except this time all existence for all eternity is at stake. And of course neither Jack nor Cas have done the math when it comes to the implications of Billy's plan. I know I've asked this in my previous post but how stupid are Team Free Will?

Science is not the writers' forte, among other things.

[Myrelle]

2 hours ago, patty1h said:

My heart aches because I've been a SPNer for 15 years and this is what I heard during every scene that didn't include Sam or Dean:  "Blah blah blah blah blah blahblah blahblah.   Blah blah blah?  Blah blah blahblah"!    I saw some shapes on my TV screen, one seemed to be wearing a trench coat, but I was too disinterested to acknowledge any of these secondary characters.  I don't care about what Cas or Jack or Billie does at this point - I lost track of what their storyline is.  Even seeing Amara back with the boys made me sad because I didn't like her as soon as we were told that she's God's sister.  Whatever.

I checked out during this episode because at this stage I've lost faith that the ending will be worth the time I've invested all these years.  However, I watch to honor J2's commitment to the show and the fans.

I'm still watching because of The Ackles and I have to say that I need to watch the Dean and Amara scene again, if nothing else from this one.

I'm reading things about it that make me want to re-watch it so badly and I knew that I would feel that way from the moment I saw it.

It's so loaded.

For me, through Jensen,  I SO! felt Dean's anger there.

It was So. Real.

I need to see it again...

 

[appositival]

9 hours ago, Bobcatkitten said:

Also, why was that girl killing those people?

It hadn't even occurred to me to wonder. I assume that she just felt like writing some stuff on walls and and killing some people.

I did like Castiel's speech about now regretting having been a "good soldier".

 

[trudysmom]

 Everything I was thinking has been said, and then some.  "This show blows" is what I kept repeating.  I've come to the point that I HATE Jack, and very nearly hate Cas.  His obsession with Jack , his 'son' (barf) has left him a shell of character.  No one, nothing else matters but Jack.  And I've said before but Alexander Calvert may be a really nice guy but the boy can't act for shit.

When did demon's eyes go from black to red?

[catrox14]

24 minutes ago, trudysmom said:

 

When did demon's eyes go from black to red?

Crossroads demons have always had red eyes

[Smad]

9 hours ago, catrox14 said:

As to the second part of the confrontation, Jensen clearly remembered that Dean was in Amara's thrall and that he couldn't hurt her when he told her he would never hurt her. Was Dean acting and she bought it? Or did Dean really slip back into that state of mind? Or was Dean not lying to her at all because he won't actually be the one hurting her and she understands that?

I'm royally confused as to what the writers are going for. Dean said for several episodes that they will kill Amara. During the convo in the car between Sam and Dean they talked about lying to her in order to get her near Jack I presume so that when Chuck shows up, Jack can kill them both. Then this weird shift happened after their failed first talk with her. Sam said maybe it's for the best that they couldn't convince Amara. Erm, how could that be considering you need her close because otherwise Nougat can't kill her? The whole point of the guys searching for her was to set her up to get killed.

Then at the end of the episode when Cas asked how it went with Amara, Dean said she 'was in'. That's not what you say when your plan is to kill her. Dean should have said something along the lines of 'we did it. we lied and we roped her in.' After all I thought he lied in his one on one with Amara. He would never hurt her, said the guy who's been talking about killing her for episodes (including this one). And he conveniently left out the rest of his team when he said HE wouldn't hurt her. But his talk with Cas and the way he phrased the end result make no sense if 'he lied successfully'.

[Myrelle]

4 minutes ago, Smad said:

I'm royally confused as to what the writers are going for. Dean said for several episodes that they will kill Amara. During the convo in the car between Sam and Dean they talked about lying to her in order to get her near Jack I presume so that when Chuck shows up, Jack can kill them both. Then this weird shift happened after their failed first talk with her. Sam said maybe it's for the best that they couldn't convince Amara. Erm, how could that be considering you need her close because otherwise Nougat can't kill her? The whole point of the guys searching for her was to set her up to get killed.

Then at the end of the episode when Cas asked how it went with Amara, Dean said she 'was in'. That's not what you say when your plan is to kill her. Dean should have said something along the lines of 'we did it. we lied and we roped her in.' After all I thought he lied in his one on one with Amara. He would never hurt her, said the guy who's been talking about killing her for episodes (including this one). And he conveniently left out the rest of his team when he said HE wouldn't hurt her. But his talk with Cas and the way he phrased the end result make no sense if 'he lied successfully'.

The best part of that scene is that it's so hard to tell if he was lying or telling the truth about never hurting her. 

He seemed so sincere.

I can't believe that he would want to, even if he felt like he had to. 

[gonzosgirrl]

@Smad I think the idea is that Chuck and Amara have to be together so Nougat Baby can kill them both at the same time. So they need her to think she's in on their 'plan' so that she will show up to to the showdown.

[Pondlass1]

2 hours ago, Myrelle said:

I have to say that I need to watch the Dean and Amara scene again

I’ve watched it a couple of times and of course it’s some really good solid acting from both. Thing is... whatever they talk about nowadays is forgotten or ignored next episode or doesn’t even make sense, so why invest?  But I like Emily as Amara and can feel her chemistry with Dean ..I just wish the writing had some clout.
A big chunk of the episode was wasted on two twits go on a hunt... whereas the Amara connection to the ending of the series is way more intriguing 

 

[Terese]

11 hours ago, Smad said:

It's stupid because of the new canon that Billie added into the mix this Season. Didn't she say that God weaved himself into the very existence of this universe? Which means that he is part of the universe. What if he is so much a part of it that the universe's existence is contingent on his continued existence? That's something that should be considered by the team when it comes to killing Chuck. But none of them even go there, completely content with whatever Billy tells them. And that's stupid.

Except for the part at the end of S11 when the universe was almost wiped out because God was dying. So there is at least one way the universe can be destroyed - when God dies. We were also told in S11 that Chuck only got down to all out creation after Amara was locked away. There wasn't any mention of a big bang that created the universe. That credit went to God.

Even  scientists refer to it as the "God Particle." They do experiments recreating that moment, among other things, in huge collider space labs around the world.  I wish the writers would have had deeper understanding of this enormous concept of creation and far more respect.

[Terese]

7 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Its like they mixed up "flawed but good and well meaning person" with "unlikable cipher who is also pretty stupid" when they were writing Mary. I think what they were going for with Mary was something of a deconstruction of the "perfect warm wonderful mom who dies before the story starts to motivate the heroes" trope, which I actually think is an idea with a lot of potential, and I didn't hate the idea of Mary being brought back. However, Mary ended up being one of the shows most underused and wasted plot threads, and we all know thats really saying something. Mary was basically as much of a plot device as a living person as she was as a dead person, existing to create drama for her family and those around her, make dumb or selfish choices and be manipulated easier than a dog being fooled by the pretend to throw the ball trick. Some of those flaws were deliberate, but some of her worst flaws, especially throwing away her second chance to be with her sons at every opportunity and rarely being there for them in their many times of crisis, I think were accidents. Like, we were supposed to see her wanting to stay in the crappy AU world with her resistance friends as heroic I think, when really it just came off as her caring more about any group of people she could find more than her sons who have devoted their lives to her and her memory, which did not endear me to her at all. She was around, but they never did much with her that was very interesting. She always seemed to be doing anything else other than having meaningful interactions with her sons, as that would actually be interesting. How does Mary feel about her relationship with her sons, who she remembers as small children but are now grown adults? What does that relationship look like when she is now basically the same age as her sons? How does she feel about her husband raising them to be hunters, a lifestyle that she wanted to escape? We get some of that here and there, but its never really explored in any meaningful way, nor do they give her many things to do plot wise that anyone else couldn't have done. She usually just screwed things up or was offscreen while Sam or Dean (usually Dean, her second favorite) begged her to answer her phone while she apparently ignored them. It actually would have been interesting if they said that she really was deliberately avoiding them, because being around them and knowing that she missed so much and they had suffered so much hurt too much, or that she felt guilty about how things turned out for them or about her deal to bring John back and how that almost turned Sam into the anti christ or whatever, and she had an arc about dealing with that, but nope. She gets nothing really meaningful other than being a pawn, then an absentee uncaring mom, and then she just stupidly and pointlessly dies again, offscreen no less, all to create drama for the other characters. Mary was a decent idea, but they did nothing with her besides give Sam and Dean more angst, basically changing nothing about her purpose in the story since episode one. 

Really, how did this help Dean let go of his mom? Now his few nice memories of her are tainted by her crappiness post resurrection, and he has to lose her...again. Thank Amara! 

Beautifully expressed. I suppose that is the chief inconsistency and flaw in the way Mary is written. She is on one hand shown to be so affected after reading John's journal that she is compelled to join the BMOL to eradicate the world from monsters so her sons can retire from it. On the other hand, she continues fighting monsters while married with children, putting them at risk and increasing the likelihood that they will grow up as hunters. The two don't jive.

My other problem is that Young Mary didn't want life. We saw her say it, we felt it in her words and emotions. We saw a homemaker, wife and mother, preparing meals and baking a pie. We saw her broken and  anguished, in the past, when she learned her sons were hunters. We saw her pleading with John to take her away.

Mary never continued hunting and I resent the retconned lie, among so many other lies. That one broke Dean's heart and Sam's to a lesser extent. All to further plot and break their spirits. There was no noble awakening. It was simply cruel. 

On a side note, I'm done with Chuck and Amara being portrayed as witless and cruel.

[Terese]

3 hours ago, trudysmom said:

 Everything I was thinking has been said, and then some.  "This show blows" is what I kept repeating.  I've come to the point that I HATE Jack, and very nearly hate Cas.  His obsession with Jack , his 'son' (barf) has left him a shell of character.  No one, nothing else matters but Jack.  And I've said before but Alexander Calvert may be a really nice guy but the boy can't act for shit.

When did demon's eyes go from black to red?

Crossroads Demons have red eyes.

I feel for the actor. If he were given a developing character to play, he night have an opportunity to act. 

So, correct about Castiel. They ruined him.

[Macbeth]

54 minutes ago, Terese said:

Crossroads Demons have red eyes.

I feel for the actor. If he were given a developing character to play, he night have an opportunity to act. 

So, correct about Castiel. They ruined him.

1000s times with Castiel.  He just looks over it.  Completely over it.  He once was a wonderful character - but they sucked everything out of him until he became a sad sack.

I try to look for the good in every episode - as I don't expect from Drab Dabb.  

So on that note  - Of course Dean and Amara's energy was amazing.

And I like the concept that God is trying to destroy the world - while Rowena is trying to redeem hell.  Only the truly evil may live there.

I really believe the CRD was driving Miss Psycho to hell - as she meets Rowena's qualifications for residency.

 

 

[7kstar]

9 hours ago, Myrelle said:

I'm still watching because of The Ackles and I have to say that I need to watch the Dean and Amara scene again, if nothing else from this one.

I recorded the show, and it cut off during this scene.  I found it on YouTube.  The scene is good when they put the two parts together.  What I get out of it, now they have their excuse to have someone else kill Amara so Dean can keep his word.  Don't you love how they set it up so they once again can give something that was Dean's to someone else.

16 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I have no idea what the frak that episode was supposed to be. Never has a case been so boring. Never has Steve Bacic been boring until now.

Thanks you answered my question, I just wanted to know who was playing the father.  I recognized him but not where.  lol

I didn't see the ending.  I was doing laundry while they were torturing and killing the victims.  So I guess did I really miss anything?  I don't know why they were being killed, but was it the daughter?  Jack and Cas solving the case...well, I just couldn't get into it.  In order to watch I have to watch online and go through commercials and I just don't feel it is strong enough or worth my time.

Sorry Jensen, but it looks like your first instinct was spot on and this will be a whimper- terrible ending.  Am I supposed to be excited that they are rinsing and repeating past seasons that didn't land that strong to begin with? 

Jared, I'm afraid you don't have a clue about what makes a good ending.  Your endorsment isn't selling this.  Haven't seen the promo but maybe something will be interesting next ep?  I assume that it is the old last three are suppose to reel us in but right now it looks worst than I ever imagine.

Mary...everyone has stated it but I will just add.  I agree it could have been something...the potential was there.  But the setup for Amara's new lesson never got off the ground.  It failed.  I think it would have been better if she had said but I wanted you to have a chance to get closure with your mom and spend some time with her.  But life is never perfect and is full of disappointment.  Then tie it into it is better to in the now than the past.  With a slight twist of words, it might have worked.  But they always fall short, so it just landed as WTF?  Nothing you did set this up.  Nothing.

Sorry writer's I'm disappointed.  And I liked Amara and still liked Mary.  With some changes, I think we could have all liked Mary.  Her death, well it was all pointless.

[Smad]

8 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

@Smad I think the idea is that Chuck and Amara have to be together so Nougat Baby can kill them both at the same time. So they need her to think she's in on their 'plan' so that she will show up to to the showdown.

Yes I know that and I explained that. My problem is the dialogue. Sam saying maybe it's better they couldn't convince Amara makes absolutely no sense in this context. Dean saying she 'is in' as if Amara is aware of their plan. His dialogue should have been 'we fooled her' or 'we roped her in'. Even Cas saying 'good' in reply to Dean's successful mission makes no sense since by this point Cas knows what Jack has to do to destroy Chuck/Amara and he's against it.

[Castiels Cat]

23 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

But.. but... that was Chuck's writing that allowed the universe to be 'saved' by 'Dean' 'talking' to Amara. AKA anything that doesn't fit now can be poo-poohed with the stroke of a pen as 'bad writing'. Canon is meaningless. The whole 15 years is being rendered meaningless.

It wasn't Chuck's writing at the end of s 11. It's pretty clear from Metatron's reaction to Chuck's script that Chuck dies and the world ends, hence Metatronon sacrifices himself. If Metatron knew Dean Winchester was going to save the day he would not have done that.

Chuck let Dean choose the ending... again in season 11. Chuck set Dean up to sacrifice himself not to humanize Amara.

It's one of the reasons why I think for Chuck this is really between him and Dean. From his perspective he's given Dean a lot and he really wanted he sacrifice moment from Dean and didn't get it despite the perfect set up.

Dean is the wild card.

The writers still knew that in whatever that stupid Chuck casino episode was called.

That episode ended with Dean standing up to Chuck, Chuck incredulous at Dean's defiance and Chuck responding in kind. To me it looked personal between the two of them.

 

 

4 hours ago, 7kstar said:

I recorded the show, and it cut off during this scene.  I found it on YouTube.  The scene is good when they put the two parts together.  What I get out of it, now they have their excuse to have someone else kill Amara so Dean can keep his word.  Don't you love how they set it up so they once again can give something that was Dean's to someone else.

Thanks you answered my question, I just wanted to know who was playing the father.  I recognized him but not where.  lol

I didn't see the ending.  I was doing laundry while they were torturing and killing the victims.  So I guess did I really miss anything?  I don't know why they were being killed, but was it the daughter?  Jack and Cas solving the case...well, I just couldn't get into it.  In order to watch I have to watch online and go through commercials and I just don't feel it is strong enough or worth my time.

Sorry Jensen, but it looks like your first instinct was spot on and this will be a whimper- terrible ending.  Am I supposed to be excited that they are rinsing and repeating past seasons that didn't land that strong to begin with? 

Jared, I'm afraid you don't have a clue about what makes a good ending.  Your endorsment isn't selling this.  Haven't seen the promo but maybe something will be interesting next ep?  I assume that it is the old last three are suppose to reel us in but right now it looks worst than I ever imagine.

Mary...everyone has stated it but I will just add.  I agree it could have been something...the potential was there.  But the setup for Amara's new lesson never got off the ground.  It failed.  I think it would have been better if she had said but I wanted you to have a chance to get closure with your mom and spend some time with her.  But life is never perfect and is full of disappointment.  Then tie it into it is better to in the now than the past.  With a slight twist of words, it might have worked.  But they always fall short, so it just landed as WTF?  Nothing you did set this up.  Nothing.

Sorry writer's I'm disappointed.  And I liked Amara and still liked Mary.  With some changes, I think we could have all liked Mary.  Her death, well it was all pointless.

Omg. I liked Mary too. There are actually two of us.

[Castiels Cat]

22 hours ago, Bergamot said:

Yes, this is true. Their original information was that if Chuck went, Amara had to go as well, to keep everything in balance. Nothing about matter and anti-matter resulting in the end of the universe. So I don't really get this "OMG they are trusting what cosmic entities tell them, how incredibly stupid they are!!!!!" complaint.  Sure, the writers could change things now to say that destroying both Chuck and Amara would instead destroy the universe.  But I don't see why the Winchesters should be castigated as idiots just because they are going with their previous understanding of the way it worked. Whatever they want to try might not work, but they will figure it out. Unless the show actually does end with the destruction of the universe.

Well... Death could be. Compromised  and these trials could actually be weakening Jack so that he is no match for God. Jack is blindly following Death's directions kinda sorta like he mindlessly slurped smoothies.

[PAForrest]

12 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

I’ve watched it a couple of times and of course it’s some really good solid acting from both. Thing is... whatever they talk about nowadays is forgotten or ignored next episode or doesn’t even make sense, so why invest?  But I like Emily as Amara and can feel her chemistry with Dean ..I just wish the writing had some clout.
A big chunk of the episode was wasted on two twits go on a hunt... whereas the Amara connection to the ending of the series is way more intriguing

I went back and watched just the parts with Dean, Sam, and Amara again before I deleted the episode; and except for the weak writing, there was a nugget of decent story telling there. And of course, the powerful acting between Jensen and Emily was top notch. Just think how much better it would have been with simple good writing and no retconning. I mean, Amara never said anything about teaching or showing Dean something when she left with Chuck, am I right? At the time bringing Mary back was simply a gift Amara thought Dean would want, regardless of how horrible a gift it ended up being.

Bottom line, the decent parts were wasted and buried in a boring hunt that had nothing to do with nothing. The only thing that stands out about it for me, if I'm recalling correctly (didn't go back to watch it), was how suddenly Asstiel's powers appeared to be fully charged again, with no explanation whatsoever. Then again, there was never any explanation for why they were waning earlier in the season. Nothing means anything. Pathetic.

Edited October 17, 2020 by PAForrest

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

It wasn't Chuck's writing at the end of s 11

It was if they say it was. OG death explained Amara's existence and now we're told he was just telling them what they wanted/needed to hear. This is the slippery slope of the Chuck-as-author nonsense. It is impossible to invest in supernatural world-building if you can't count on the foundations, the basic tenets, being 'true'. Why should I care if Jack (or Sam or Dean) dies, or all the multiverses explode, when you can and will undo it next week and call it 'new canon'. 

[gonzosgirrl]

Unfortunately they've taken 'Pee on my leg and tell me it's raining' as their story telling tool.

[ILoveReading]

19 hours ago, Lemuria said:

And when he was sick she made him tomato soup and sang to him. 

On the opposite side of the coin Dean also said that Mary and John's marriage wasn't perfect until after she died.  So I would say a case can be made that young Dean knew his parent weren't perfect.

 

[ILoveReading]

Mistake or did the make up department start putting in as much effort as the writers. 

[Bergamot]

11 hours ago, Terese said:

Even  scientists refer to it as the "God Particle." They do experiments recreating that moment, among other things, in huge collider space labs around the world. 

To tell the truth, I have many problems with the show, but a lack of scientific accuracy is way down on the list of things I am going to worry about. I want the writing to be internally plausible and consistent with itself, but as long as it has that internal logic I could care less whether it has a basis in true science. It's a fantasy.

 

1 hour ago, PAForrest said:

The only thing that stands out about it for me, if I'm recalling correctly (didn't go back to watch it), was how suddenly Asstiel's powers appeared to be fully charged again, with no explanation whatsoever. Then again, there was never any explanation for why they were waning earlier in the season. Nothing means anything. Pathetic.

Yes, speaking of a lack of consistency... Remember the episode "Peace of Mind", just last season? There was actually a scene where Castiel was struggling and punching and rolling around on the ground trying to subdue a mere human. So, yeah, whatever, writers.

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, PAForrest said:

was how suddenly Asstiel's powers appeared to be fully charged again, with no explanation whatsoever. Then again, there was never any explanation for why they were waning earlier in the season. Nothing means anything. Pathetic.

His powers have always ebbed and flowed based on plot convenience.  The only thing that he can never do since the fall is teleport.

[foxfreakinmulder]

Remember when the show was an hour of Sam and Dean? Yeah, me either :-(

I haven't liked Castiel in a long, long time so watching him and boy wonder on a case made me want to get stabby.

Great scene with Dean and Amara and when he said he would never hurt her I took it as him saying that because he knows killing her won't be by his hands. Loved the snowy scene outside too.

I don't have much to say about Mary there was something about her I just didn't like. I did like young Mary Dean met when he traveled back in time.

Not much to say about this episode except not enough Sam and Dean and when I say Sam and Dean I really mean Dean ;-)

Edited October 17, 2020 by foxfreakinmulder

[Wynne88]

Can somebody remind me why Death wants God to die?  What does she care about what he does to the world?  On another tangent, I miss the old Death.  

[Smad]

Still kind of funny that Dean is pissed at Amara not doing anything in regards to stopping Chuck. She was just abiding by what Dean told her back in S11 'Golden rule, brother's keeper. It is his universe, his rules.' So she didn't interfere with creation just as Dean told her not to because it's Chuck's universe and he makes the rules. So now that Dean doesn't like the new rules he's pissed that Amara's not doing anything even though he's the one who told her she had no right to interfere? Yikes Dean.

[Aeryn13]

7 minutes ago, Smad said:

Still kind of funny that Dean is pissed at Amara not doing anything in regards to stopping Chuck. She was just abiding by what Dean told her back in S11 'Golden rule, brother's keeper. It is his universe, his rules.' So she didn't interfere with creation just as Dean told her not to because it's Chuck's universe and he makes the rules. So now that Dean doesn't like the new rules he's pissed that Amara's not doing anything even though he's the one who told her she had no right to interfere? Yikes Dean.

He hardly told her Chuck could genocide all the worlds and it wouls be hunky dory so she should happily let it happen. Both Chuck and Amara are primordial beings, do they really need to be led by the hand and have context explained to them like toddlers? 

[tessathereaper]

5 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Mistake or did the make up department start putting in as much effort as the writers. 

Unless someone is really looking it's pretty well not noticeable.  I can understand why they wouldn't cover it up.  Plus Jared has one too, so if Jared's shows at some point, at most it'll look like Dean and Sam got another matching tattoo, just not an anti-possession tattoo. 🙂  I'm not going to be too hard on the make up department for that one, besides Jensen obviously always really liked those ladies.

[gonzosgirrl]

8 minutes ago, Smad said:

Still kind of funny that Dean is pissed at Amara not doing anything in regards to stopping Chuck. She was just abiding by what Dean told her back in S11 'Golden rule, brother's keeper. It is his universe, his rules.' So she didn't interfere with creation just as Dean told her not to because it's Chuck's universe and he makes the rules. So now that Dean doesn't like the new rules he's pissed that Amara's not doing anything even though he's the one who told her she had no right to interfere? Yikes Dean.

That is really not a fair judgement.  IMO, in both cases, he's trying to reason with her to save the world. This time it's from her brother instead of from her. Perhaps hypocritical in the strictest sense, but intentions and context are everything. 

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, Wynne88 said:

Can somebody remind me why Death wants God to die?  What does she care about what he does to the world?  On another tangent, I miss the old Death.  

I think the rate he's going, she'll die too.