S05.E09: The Tipping Point

[qtpye]

4 hours ago, BloggerAloud said:

That doesn't make a lick of sense since she was starring right at Candiace and there was a whole table between them so for her to think Candiace reached across and pushed her is some bull.

Is Monique saying that she looked away and thought Candiass pulled on her shoulder? Because otherwise, Candiass was in her eyeline and is short as hell. Also, someone pulling on your shoulder is no reason to go insane and attack a person.

Monique needs to understand that if she is this out of control people will try to provoke her on purpose because they know her husband has deep pockets. I know Howives are not allowed to sue but other people sure will. She has got to get this hair trigger temper or black outs under control.

1 hour ago, Neurochick said:

I think Candiace saw Monique as an acquaintance, not a real friend.  Monique however saw it differently.   

It seems like anyone who Monique counts as an friend on the show, hops over to Gizelle's popular table, asap. First, Ashley and now Candiass. I imagine it is because Gizelle is Andy's favorite (kind of like Tamara on OC) and that gives her enormous power on the show.

I think Monique was not that surprised about Ashley eventually favoring Gizelle but was really hurt when Candiass did it. I think what Monique does not understand is how much Candiass NEEDS THIS SHOW. Without it, she has to go crawling back on her mama or live on her husband's salary...which is supporting 3 kids by 2 baby mamas (or at least I hope he is supporting his children financially).

None of this JUSTIFIES MONIQUE'S BEHAVIOR at all.

 

[Baltimore Betty]

I sort of wanted to hear Monique let out a "who gonna check me, boo," when she was in the the thick of it.

Has Candiace lawyered up?

 

[qtpye]

21 minutes ago, dosodog said:

My take on Ray is he is an old, tired man who has no interest in reality tv, but his wife does.  He's going through the motions at this point because at one time he wanted to support Karen in her famewhore agenda, but now he's over it.  Particularly because it brought negative juju to him like (I. E. Tax problems, the "Uncle Ben" nickname, where do you live, etc.).

Some men do not want to be put on the spot over "I love you", particularly being filmed for a national audience.  

He just wants to be left alone to putter and yell at kids on the lawn. 

I'm waiting for the day he takes a nap during a party, like LVP'S husband did.

Yeah, as someone previously said on this board an older husband is not that big of a deal when you are in your 20's and he is in his 40's but it will catch up to you eventually. I remember thinking LVP and Karen were much older then they were, based on their husbands.  That will be Ashley in 20 years, if her marriage actually lasts.

You are right about the bad juju...remember when everyone was laughing at him being the "Black Bill Gates"?

Heck, Beyoncé' even put it in a song.

 

Edited September 30, 2020 by qtpye

[Sheenieb]

Quote

Some men do not want to be put on the spot over "I love you", particularly being filmed for a national audience.  

I would hope that publicly telling his wife that he loves her isn't an "on the spot" view for him. Considering everything else they've shared, house and tax drama, telling Karen he loves her shouldn't be taxing.

I don't know, it just looks like Ray is punishing Karen to me. I'm not saying to ignore his feelings of neglect, but how about telling Karen that instead of being passive-aggressive? Karen is the one doing the work to fix their drift, meanwhile, he's just sitting there watching her squirm. It's a power move. 

[qtpye]

1 hour ago, Sheenieb said:

I would hope that publicly telling his wife that he loves her isn't an "on the spot" view for him. Considering everything else they've shared, house and tax drama, telling Karen he loves her shouldn't be taxing.

I don't know, it just looks like Ray is punishing Karen to me. I'm not saying to ignore his feelings of neglect, but how about telling Karen that instead of being passive-aggressive? Karen is the one doing the work to fix their drift, meanwhile, he's just sitting there watching her squirm. It's a power move. 

It's funny how their roles have changed.

It used to be that Ray brought in the big bucks and Karen was the beautiful wife that made Ray look good.

Now Karen is bringing in the big bucks and Ray is helping her look good because being married for many years to a successful man (tax issue aside) is part of her "brand".

I really hope their love runs deeper then just appearances...I always thought it did.

Edited September 30, 2020 by qtpye

[SailorGirl]

1 hour ago, dosodog said:

Particularly because it brought negative juju to him like (I. E. Tax problems, the "Uncle Ben" nickname, where do you live, etc.).

 

The show did nothing to bring on the "negative juju" of tax problems. He did that all on his own. The rest, fair point, but saying him being on the show somehow caused the tax problems diminishes the crime of tax fraud he committed long before this show was on.

That would be like saying, oh, I don't know, another (former) reality tv show individual claiming a loss of ~$100M on a property he bought in NY for about $2 million just a few years before to cheat on his taxes and saying his current job is the reason why that overinflation happened. 

[biakbiak]

5 hours ago, Neurochick said:

I think Candiace saw Monique as an acquaintance, not a real friend.  Monique however saw it differently.   

I disagree in Candiace’s own words to Chris in the car she was her only true friend and that she couldn’t understand why she would turn on her because they were real friends.

[RealReality]

1 hour ago, biakbiak said:

I disagree in Candiace’s own words to Chris in the car she was her only true friend and that she couldn’t understand why she would turn on her because they were real friends.

I agree, I think Candace has behaved like a friend as much as she can.  She was certainly a better friend than Monique who threw her under the bus with Ashley on national TV and is only nice to Candace in private.  

Before the interim between seasons 4 and 5 were Monique and Charisse officially on the outs?  I know that Charisse thought that Monique used her contact for social entree, but I thought they had squashed that issue.  I know that prior to that, Charisse and Monique were EXTREMELY close.'

Was there something that we saw happen on camera besides the "using my social connections" thing that would have made us think that Charisse and Monique hated each other last season?  

 

Devils avocado.... if Charisse and Monique were still friendly when Candace gave Gigi the number the ill will may have not yet developed. If there wasn't any ill will there, Candace may not have known it would be a breach of trust OR she might have thought that Gigi would try to get Charisse to talk to Monique about the optics.  Gigi may have chosen to go to Charisse, because it sounds like Charisse was the one who recommended the trainer to Monique and so she may have just wanted to know if the trainer might actually cross a line.  

I think if Gigi was on a mission to straight up fuck with Monique off the bat, she would have asked for Gizelle's number or contacted Gizelle or Ashley.  Not Charisse.  Charisse isnt even a castmember anymore.  And as we can all see, Gizelle is more than happy to bring that rumor to national TV.  

I don't think Gigi went to the blogs, she went to Charisse, so its possible that she thought that she and Monique were close and that Charisse could get through to Monique.  From what I understand, Gigi's had tried going to Monique directly but Monique told her to shove off.  

People are making Gigi out to be a villain, and maybe she is.  BUT, it doesn't sound like she went straight to the blogs, but that she tried to have a conversation with Monique first and Monique told her to shove off.  It doesn't sound like she went to the blogs.  Yes, she spoke to Charisse about it, but who even knows the nature of that conversation.  Gigi, like I said, may have just wanted to know if the trainer was the type of guy who WOULD cross a line with a client or if he was just a flirty guy.  Some guys are just flirty and wouldn't cross a line to having an affair.  I'm not sure if Gigi ever went to the blogs until she felt she had to defend her actions.  

It was wrong for Candace to invite Charisse to the party and not tell Monique about it since she should have known by then that Charisse was spreading the rumors.  But it sounds like Gizelle was happy to spread the rumors too, and she was invited.  Its possible Candace did it to be shitty, and its possible she just invited everyone she could think of, there were quite a few people there.  Had it been an intimate affair, I wouldn't extend that benefit of a doubt.

 

[RealReality]

5 hours ago, qtpye said:

Is Monique saying that she looked away and thought Candiass pulled on her shoulder? Because otherwise, Candiass was in her eyeline and is short as hell. Also, someone pulling on your shoulder is no reason to go insane and attack a person.

Monique needs to understand that if she is this out of control people will try to provoke her on purpose because they know her husband has deep pockets. I know Howives are not allowed to sue but other people sure will. She has got to get this hair trigger temper or black outs under control.

It seems like anyone who Monique counts as an friend on the show, hops over to Gizelle's popular table, asap. First, Ashley and now Candiass. I imagine it is because Gizelle is Andy's favorite (kind of like Tamara on OC) and that gives her enormous power on the show.

I think Monique was not that surprised about Ashley eventually favoring Gizelle but was really hurt when Candiass did it. I think what Monique does not understand is how much Candiass NEEDS THIS SHOW. Without it, she has to go crawling back on her mama or live on her husband's salary...which is supporting 3 kids by 2 baby mamas (or at least I hope he is supporting his children financially).

None of this JUSTIFIES MONIQUE'S BEHAVIOR at all.

 

Candace didn't seem to jump over to Gizelle, as much as she simply apologized, IMO.

Candace couldn't count on Monique to help her.  Monique not only failed to protect her friend Candace, but she twisted the knife in her back by agreeing to a plot to "freeze her out" of the show. 

I totally agree that Andy likes Gizelle and so she has power.  I expect this is part of the reason why the Kendyll thing never took flight the way Monique wanted it to.  As Gizelle said, Monique took her shot and I think Gizelle shut it down behind the scenes. 

Monique has been desperate to get friendly with Gizelle for ages, but I think she forever ruined that possibility with the Kendyll thing. 

Monique would throw Candace under the bus in a New York Minute if she thought it would get her in good with Gizelle and the GEB.

[Iguessnot]

On 9/29/2020 at 7:51 PM, sATL said:

ITA. There was a comment that Ray made that I think is part of what is setting him off. He realized that the meals Karen used to cook came to the table because she was really cooking for the kids. Kids gone and there went the meals.

Ray wants attention. Ray wants Karen to be his "hobby" - not necessarily for bedroom activities, but to at least be present, as if time didn't march on.

I would thought as a couple, somewhere along the line, Ray/Karen would talked/dream about their lives as an empty nester , sooner than the youngest being in college for a couple of years. Little simple statements like " I am going to retire in x years", " I want to move to xxx", " I want to travel to xxxx and not worry about the school calendar".

Karen probably had an active charity calendar back when, along with the kids. Kids are gone and she replaced that time peddling perfume

What struck me about Ray's comment was that Karen is acting like she is a complete stranger to cooking. She even made a point of saying she should take the labels off the cookware. I didn't hear her refute his claims that she cooked for the family, so it was disingenuous for Karen to frame the birthday chef as helping a novice cook for her man. Additionally Ray told Karen she looked cute in the kitchen and in her outfit and Karen said don't get used to it. While they were eating Ray asked when she was going to do this again and Karen gave him a look and laughed as though this was never happening again. I'm sensing a fake storyline, but Ray is also getting some jabs in because he really doesn't enjoy this kind of filming.

[dosodog]

5 hours ago, Sheenieb said:

I would hope that publicly telling his wife that he loves her isn't an "on the spot" view for him. Considering everything else they've shared, house and tax drama, telling Karen he loves her shouldn't be taxing.

I don't know, it just looks like Ray is punishing Karen to me. I'm not saying to ignore his feelings of neglect, but how about telling Karen that instead of being passive-aggressive? Karen is the one doing the work to fix their drift, meanwhile, he's just sitting there watching her squirm. It's a power move. 

Some men aren't comfortable with saying it.  Some men are so comfortable saying it, they really don't mean it (cough Michael Darby cough).

Karen is trying to have some serious couple discussions on TV and I dont think Ray wants to go there on TV.  

 

I just get the sense Ray is over being on tv and all that goes with it.  

4 hours ago, SailorGirl said:

The show did nothing to bring on the "negative juju" of tax problems. He did that all on his own. The rest, fair point, but saying him being on the show somehow caused the tax problems diminishes the crime of tax fraud he committed long before this show was on.

That would be like saying, oh, I don't know, another (former) reality tv show individual claiming a loss of ~$100M on a property he bought in NY for about $2 million just a few years before to cheat on his taxes and saying his current job is the reason why that overinflation happened. 

I guess I should have worded it differently. 

How about:  It brought attention to who he was and what he was doing.  I talk too much as it is and was just trying to put it all in a "nutshell" so to speak. 

[red12]

In re-watching the episode tonight with my husband, I was struck by the boldness of Ray (75?) telling his wife of over 20 years on national television that he thinks he loves her in the manner he did. Even in a marriage of relatively equal resources and ages, it is the act of someone prepared to burn it down and walk away if it comes to that.

But, as an elder who is married to someone 20 years younger who still has earning potential and frankly more entertaining relationship options, it's extra bold. He is either 100% sure (whether accurate or not) that Karen will never leave or he thinks he doesn't care.

If Karen leaves, I believe Ray will absolutely grow to regret the moment we witnessed in this episode. He is not at the life stage where he will be trading up no matter what may have previously been the case for a "Black Bill Gates". The tables have definitely turned and I don't know that either party is completely aware how much.

[qtpye]

2 hours ago, RealReality said:

Candace didn't seem to jump over to Gizelle, as much as she simply apologized, IMO.

Candace couldn't count on Monique to help her.  Monique not only failed to protect her friend Candace, but she twisted the knife in her back by agreeing to a plot to "freeze her out" of the show. 

I totally agree that Andy likes Gizelle and so she has power.  I expect this is part of the reason why the Kendyll thing never took flight the way Monique wanted it to.  As Gizelle said, Monique took her shot and I think Gizelle shut it down behind the scenes. 

Monique has been desperate to get friendly with Gizelle for ages, but I think she forever ruined that possibility with the Kendyll thing. 

Monique would throw Candace under the bus in a New York Minute if she thought it would get her in good with Gizelle and the GEB.

In one way the Kendyll thing did work...I think it was the last straw for Sherman.

G was crazy for Sherman (or at least his money) and really wanted that relationship to take off. Sherman was not comfortable with the reality show fame and the Kendyll thing was the straw that broke the camel's back. It also seemed like Sherman dumped Gizelle at the last minute on the eve of Candiass's wedding.

I remember Juan screaming out for Sherman when he realized that he would actually have to spend an evening alone with Robyn and Gizelle.

[drivethroo]

3 hours ago, RealReality said:

 if Charisse and Monique were still friendly when Candace gave Gigi the number the ill will may have not yet developed.

• Ashley had her baby shower in June. Everyone except Candiace was there (including Charrisse).
• Ashley had her baby in July.
• Candiace had her anniversary party in August.
• Ashley's dinner / sip n see had to have been in August/September
• Candiace dropped out of the podcast sometime in September (podcast was on October 12)
• Lake house had to have been the first week of October.
• According to this article, the fight happened on October 16.

I don't think it matters when Candiace gave Gigi the number to get a hold of Charrisse because that's just an excuse.  Monique is operating in an alternate enhanced reality where Candiace is the villain and everything is Candiace's fault.  It's the only way you can be more mad at Candiace than at Gigi, Charrisse or Gizelle.  And if this truly is how Monique's mind is working, there is nothing Candiace can ever do to de-escalate the situation except not to ever be in Monique's presence.

I think Chris Samuels knows he's married to a beautiful nutjob but he'll never leave her because of the kids.  Mama Samuels has Monique's number too.

 

 

 

 

[RealReality]

3 hours ago, qtpye said:

In one way the Kendyll thing did work...I think it was the last straw for Sherman.

G was crazy for Sherman (or at least his money) and really wanted that relationship to take off. Sherman was not comfortable with the reality show fame and the Kendyll thing was the straw that broke the camel's back. It also seemed like Sherman dumped Gizelle at the last minute on the eve of Candiass's wedding.

I remember Juan screaming out for Sherman when he realized that he would actually have to spend an evening alone with Robyn and Gizelle.

I agree that it was the last straw for Sherman, but on the show none of it ever really blew back on Gizelle.   

I get the impression that Gizelle wouldn't film with her or give her the camera time, and since production had already vetted Kendyll and found her "boring" it wasn't worth it for them to risk upsetting Gizelle.  

However, because Monique basically used Kendyll to end Gizelle's relationship, Gizelle, IMO will NEVER be truly friendly with her.  I don't think Gizelle will ever accept her as a friend...she will be cordial and cute with her, but I don't think she is ever letting Monique sit at the cool kids table with her.  And I think Monique desperately wants to be sitting at the cool kids table.  It has to burn that Wendy is already close to Candace and Robyn and Candace is getting to fill in the "annoying little sister" role for Gizelle and Robyn.  

LOL, poor Juan....you just know he tried to fake a last minute stomach ache.   

[Keywestclubkid]

8 hours ago, red12 said:

In re-watching the episode tonight with my husband, I was struck by the boldness of Ray (75?) telling his wife of over 20 years on national television that he thinks he loves her in the manner he did. Even in a marriage of relatively equal resources and ages, it is the act of someone prepared to burn it down and walk away if it comes to that.

But, as an elder who is married to someone 20 years younger who still has earning potential and frankly more entertaining relationship options, it's extra bold. He is either 100% sure (whether accurate or not) that Karen will never leave or he thinks he doesn't care.

If Karen leaves, I believe Ray will absolutely grow to regret the moment we witnessed in this episode. He is not at the life stage where he will be trading up no matter what may have previously been the case for a "Black Bill Gates". The tables have definitely turned and I don't know that either party is completely aware how much.

Or he will be free of her if he thinks she is "acting" and this isnt who she is "off" camera .... there are always two sides to every story and the story we are getting from Karen is its ALL Ray .....

[eXiled]

The look on Chris's face as Monique bragged about bringing the hood out said it all for me. I know her mother-in-law feels vindicated about that heffa.

Dropping 200K on a failing brand and dragging a woman on television ain't good looks for you, Mo. Adding the whispers of you dallying with your trainer, and I wouldn't be surprised to hear upcoming news of a divorce. You're wrong, and you effed up. Time to wrap shit up and get the hell off my TV screen.

 

 

[LaurelleJ]

3 hours ago, RealReality said:

I agree that it was the last straw for Sherman, but on the show none of it ever really blew back on Gizelle.   

I get the impression that Gizelle wouldn't film with her or give her the camera time, and since production had already vetted Kendyll and found her "boring" it wasn't worth it for them to risk upsetting Gizelle.  

However, because Monique basically used Kendyll to end Gizelle's relationship, Gizelle, IMO will NEVER be truly friendly with her.  I don't think Gizelle will ever accept her as a friend...she will be cordial and cute with her, but I don't think she is ever letting Monique sit at the cool kids table with her.  And I think Monique desperately wants to be sitting at the cool kids table.  It has to burn that Wendy is already close to Candace and Robyn and Candace is getting to fill in the "annoying little sister" role for Gizelle and Robyn.  

It's still interesting that they allege that Charisse is the one who set this into motion because of the whole fireman thing, but since she was not a cast member that season, Monique is the one who had to drive the story forward. Charisse and Gizelle have reconciled, but Gizelle will forever hate Monique for it. Of course production is ok with it because it helps drive the feud for the story especially after the 4 homes thing.  But if not for thee Sherman thing, Gizelle would not have reunited with Jamal and given us the hot mic moment that made her dad a legend. 

[Tallulahbaby]

Question, didn't Ashley accuse Monique of drinking and driving a few seasons ago? She didn't beat her ass. And that to me is more damaging than someone accusing you of not sleeping or being annoying.

I think Monique really DOES NOT like Candy-ah-chay (that's how mu hubby likes to say it)

I kept rewinding the fight. Monique would not let go...it was really quite different from any other fight I have seen on any real housewives. Her lack of remorse on Twitter is scary. 

[Kiki777]

Maybe I’m jaded from the last season of RHOBH but I do wonder how much of this fight was real.

[TwopLurker]

Per the screenshots, Candiace cancelled the podcast on September 21st and the 20 person event was scheduled for October 12th. Monique was relying on Kurn and Candiace to help sell tickets since it's clear nobody is interested in Not for Lazy Moms. 

I binged the earlier seasons before this one started, Monique has threatened to get physical from her first talking heads. 

Baby Chase is clearly all his father. Monique probably enjoyed her hour or two a week where she got to chit chat with a handsome man and not be mommy for a bit. In my experience, trainers are 75% psychologist, 25% actual exercise information; which is totally fine! She should not have gone out with this gentleman, group or not, assuming any of that is true, IMO. They're all public figures now (uh, hello Michael Darby), and should really be hyper aware of their actions out in public. 

Giselle's girls seem like sweet, quiet kids who are just counting down the seconds until the cameras go away. I've never seen kids who seem to disconnected from their father, not a single one of them lights up around him. I hope Giselle's father is around long enough to help them get into good schools and their first jobs because their own dad certainly ain't shit.

 

 

[drivethroo]

25 minutes ago, Kiki777 said:

Maybe I’m jaded from the last season of RHOBH but I do wonder how much of this fight was real.

Real enough that charges were filed in Montgomery County, MD. 

Real enough it took 5 producers and Karen to pull Monique off of Candiace.

27 minutes ago, TwopLurker said:

I've never seen kids who seem to disconnected from their father, not a single one of them lights up around him.

There's nothing to light up about.  Grace in particular, seems to have his number.  The only reason he's coming around is he needs a First Lady for New Birth.  The girls have probably seen him more now that he's moved to Atlanta than when he lived in Maryland ...and that's only because he's sniffing around Gizelle.  He only comes around when he wants something, that's why he got ran out of the hood during the Freddie Gray situation in Baltimore.

 

[Jel]

18 hours ago, RealReality said:

Would you treat a real life friend the way Monique has treated Candace?  Would you show private text messages between you and your real life friend to someone she is in conflict with?  Even if it was to save your own skin, wouldn't you go to your friend first and at least ask her about it first?  

Would you talk nicely to your real life friend in private, but then dress her down and humiliate her when you got around your "cool friends?"  Would you use your friend like that?  Would you invite your real life friend on a podcast so you could antagonize her about not having a honeymoon?

Monique says Candace only wants things her way, but that sounds to me like Monique only wants a friend who she can humiliate and use and when the "friend" no longer wants that, she is suddenly not Monique's friend.  

Candace dared to be friendly with someone who didn't like Monique.  Isn't that what Monique was doing with Ashley?  

To me, Monique's behavior of being kind to Candace in private and then humiliating and degrading to her in public is way more representative of emotional abuse.  Befriending someone who your friend isnt friends with is maybe a betrayal, but its not emotional abuse.  I think sometimes that term is thrown about with reckless abandon.   Even then I think thats a stretch because Candace, to my knowledge hasn't actively spread any rumors.  

However, I agree fully with the first part of your statement.  She needs to just apologize and go away.  I get the impression that her fans are enabling her, but the RHOP viewership is larger than her fan base and the target audience for her NFL Moms podcast and website are much larger than the RHOP viewership and her fan base.  Her target audience, and advertisers don't want to deal with someone who celebrates their physical attack on someone else and makes a song about it.  Its a bad look. Her husband must be mortified.  

Those were also popular on MSNBC LockUp.  Sometimes drinking and rage were involved so you couldn't tell what type of fictional "blackout" they were lying about having.  It was always a blackout....but it was also completely justifiable based on a detailed recounting of events.  

I don't follow any of these women off the show, so I don't really know what's happening beyond what I see on tv and what I read here.  And I don't have a good memory for these shows either, but if I did, I feel confident that I could come up with an equally eyebrow-raising list of things Candiace has said and done. But even if I couldn't, it wouldn't really change my opinion about this situation.  I think Candiace is very smart and very savvy, very verbal, can be fun and charming.  And while it's plain that Candiace is no match for Monique physically, it's less plainly obvious that Monique is no match for Candiace in smarts, verbal skills, and savvy.  Nonetheless, that disparity exists, imo.

To address your specific questions, no, I wouldn't treat friends that way.  And I can't speak to how others use the term "emotional abuse", but I know I don't throw it out with reckless abandon, (not even with regular abandon). I don't think it was a case of just happening to be friends with someone Monique wasn't friends with, it was more of a case of actively forging a friendship with someone who was trying to harm Monique, and then acting as though there wasn't anything strange about that at all. 

If there was someone you knew of, who you believed was saying things, really hurtful, potentially marriage ruining things about you, and then after learning that, your "friend" decides to suddenly, newly, befriend that person?  That wouldn't strike you as odd? And then when  you asked about it, your friend doesn't acknowledge your hurt, but instead dismisses your feelings and pretends that it's a perfectly normal, perfectly friend-like, non-hurtful thing to do? And maybe you're the weirdo for thinking and feeling otherwise? (That's the emotional abuse part.)  I can say for sure, that if you were my RL friend, I would not be actively going out looking to make a new friendship with the person who you felt was trying to hurt you, in fact, I'd have a very low opinion of a person who would do that to my friend. So low, in fact, that I'd probably not want to engage with that person on any level, never mind inviting her to my parties.  That just seems very basic friend code to me, and this particular brand of friend code violation seems especially egregious to me. 

None of that is to say Monique is a perfect angel, and it's only Candiace who can do the hurting in this relationship; that would be absurd. But I am saying when it comes to emotional or psychological stuff, it's Candiace who throws the harder punch, imo. YMMV.

[LaurelleJ]

1 hour ago, TwopLurker said:

Giselle's girls seem like sweet, quiet kids who are just counting down the seconds until the cameras go away. I've never seen kids who seem to disconnected from their father, not a single one of them lights up around him. I hope Giselle's father is around long enough to help them get into good schools and their first jobs because their own dad certainly ain't shit.

I don't know why it's just now really dawning on me, but each girl has 8-9 brothers and sisters. I wonder if they only consider themselves siblings and don't consider the siblings from the dad's side. If he does have a fortune, heaven forbid something happens to him and 8-9 kids have to divide the assets. I can't believe he could be so reckless. 

[drivethroo]

26 minutes ago, Jel said:

I can say for sure, that if you were my RL friend, I would not be actively going out looking to make a new friendship with the person who you felt was trying to hurt you, in fact, I'd have a very low opinion of a person who would do that to my friend. So low, in fact, that I'd probably not want to engage with that person on any level, never mind inviting her to my parties.  That just seems very basic friend code to me, and this particular brand of friend code violation seems especially egregious to me. 

I don't think people have a problem with this sentiment.

What people question is how this sentiment is being applied to certain people and not others.  Ashley invited Charrisse to both her baby shower and her Sip N See.  Ashley's Sip N See had to have been after Gigi went and told Charrisse about the trainer, because the Sip N See happened after Candiace's party.  So if Monique is so upset that Candiace invited Charrisse to her party, why isn't she using that same energy on Ashley?

And it can't be that Charrisse & Candiace were forging some "new" friendship because they've known each other for several years and Candiace invited Charrisse to her wedding the year before.  If WENDY invited Charrisse to a function and started bringing Charrisse around, you might be able to make this case but Candiace has known Charrisse since Season 3.

This is the point Wendy & Robyn were trying to point out to Monique: you're turning up on Candiace for being away from the firepit but not turning up on Ashley or Gizelle...WHY?  Monique couldn't say "WHY" without bringing up the trainer rumors on camera so she claimed Candiace was trying to destroy Ashley's marriage.  (which is why Robyn said in her TH that Monique was bringing up rumors on Ashley's marriage to avoid talking about the rumors on her marriage).

People are just trying to figure out why Monique wants to fight Candiace so badly but not Gigi or Charrisse.  It can't be that Monique and Candiace were such good friends Monique felt deeply betrayed because if anything, Monique should want to beat up Gigi, her BFF for YEAR from back home.  And Monique and Charrisse had a formerly close relationship themselves. 

Why did Monique choose to disengage from Gigi & Charrisse, who started and spread the rumor but administered a beatdown on Candiace, who passed along a phone number?  And it can't be that Candiace threw such heavy emotional punches at Monique because until the winery incident, Candiace wasn't engaging with Monique at all.  "I'm Sleep/You Sleep" in and of itself isn't that much of a heavy emotional punch to be beating people over UNLESS I'm Sleep/You Sleep triggered you because it exposed your fakery.

In the end Candiace will probably never know why Monique is so mad at her because Monique doesn't know why herself.

Edited October 1, 2020 by drivethroo

[ButterQueen]

On 9/27/2020 at 10:25 PM, charming said:

Monique should be ashamed of herself and it really makes me wonder how she acts at home. She didn't have an ounce of remorse or self reflection the day after either calmly discussing how she whooped Candaice while doing her daughter's hair. Chris looked disgusted and there's no way that marriage is going to last. 

Monique's been trying to spin this story for months like Candaice was the only one at fault. She even recorded a song called "Drag Queens" bragging about what she did. 

I don't blame Candaice or the other women for not wanting to film with someone so unpredictable. 

I’ve thought all along that putting the blame on Chris Samuels was wrong.  There is a reason he says what he says.  He was a phenomenal player for my beloved Washington Redskin Team (the name when he played), and has a great reputation.  Monique clearly doesn’t like anyone, even her husband, disagreeing with her.  I mean, who gets mad when your husband tells you to hire whoever she needs to make her life easier!?!?
 

I hate the vile hood rat that is Candace and have no sympathy for her.  She is an evil woman.

I am starting to dislike Giselle and Robyn.....which kills me to say....but they have no storyline so they stir the shit and then act all righteous when these things happen.  Giselle didn’t forgive and decide to “like” Monique for no reason.  It’s part of a plan.

I would be shocked if Chris allows Monique to return next season unless she comes clean about her anger.  He has a wonderful public profile and image, that he actually worked for, and has a right to preserve it.  
 

These women crack me up saying they are never going to be in the same room with another housewife. That’s a good way to get thrown off the show.

This cast has zero gel to it.  NY gets it right, mostly.

 

 

 

[ButterQueen]

Ashley.....”If Michael decides not to change, Dean and I will high tail it out of that apartment so god damn fast, Michael will smell our dust.”  😂😂😂😂😂

 Discovered she is securing her future and desires with baby #2, her gold digger slip is showing. Sadly, I think she will disappoint me.  Have some damn respect woman.  It’s worth more than gold.

Showing episodes 12 months old is just ridiculous.....no respect from Bravo.
 

 

 

[drivethroo]

7 minutes ago, ButterQueen said:

I hate the vile hood rat that is Candace and have no sympathy for her.  She is an evil woman.

Even more evil than the person who savagely attacked her and ran a smear campaign on her for a year?

8 minutes ago, ButterQueen said:

I would be shocked if Chris allows Monique to return next season unless she comes clean about her anger.  

If she was smart, she would not come back next year ...if they don't fire her first.

8 minutes ago, ButterQueen said:

These women crack me up saying they are never going to be in the same room with another housewife. That’s a good way to get thrown off the show.

They're not saying this about someone who wore the wrong dress or was sloppy drunk and flipped up a table at another coworker. They're saying this about their coworker who beat up another coworker in front of them (to the point where it took 6 people to get them off the other person), who shows no remorse about what they did and who is running a smear campaign on the person they beat up. 

[ButterQueen]

1 minute ago, drivethroo said:

Even more evil than the person who savagely attacked her and ran a smear campaign on her for a year?

If she was smart, she would not come back next year ...if they don't fire her first.

They're not saying this about someone who wore the wrong dress or was sloppy drunk and flipped up a table at another coworker. They're saying this about their coworker who beat up another coworker in front of them (to the point where it took 6 people to get them off the other person), who shows no remorse about what they did and who is running a smear campaign on the person they beat up. 

I hate Candace that much, so yes.  Her vile mouth has just turned me off.  I already said what Monique did was wrong and she has anger issues.  Doesn’t mean I still can’t favor the woman.  She’s brought more fun and show of wealth to the show in general than knife wielding, broke Candace whose own mother popped her with her purse.

[Jel]

18 minutes ago, drivethroo said:

I don't think people have a problem with this sentiment.

What people question is how this sentiment is being applied to certain people and not others.  Ashley invited Charrisse to both her baby shower and her Sip N See.  Ashley's Sip N See had to have been after Gigi went and told Charrisse about the trainer, because the Sip N See happened after Candiace's party.  So if Monique is so upset that Candiace invited Charrisse to her party, why isn't she using that same energy on Ashley?

And it can't be that Charrisse & Candiace were forging some "new" friendship because they've known each other for several years and Candiace invited Charrisse to her wedding the year before.  If WENDY invited Charrisse to a function and started bringing Charrisse around, you might be able to make this case but Candiace has known Charrisse since Season 3.

This is the point Wendy & Robyn were trying to point out to Monique: you're turning up on Candiace for being away from the firepit but not turning up on Ashley or Gizelle...WHY?  Monique couldn't say "WHY" without bringing up the trainer rumors on camera so she claimed Candiace was trying to destroy Ashley's marriage.  (which is why Robyn said in her TH that Monique was bringing up rumors on Ashley's marriage to avoid talking about the rumors on her marriage).

People are just trying to figure out why Monique wants to fight Candiace so badly but not Gigi or Charrisse.  It can't be that Monique and Candiace were such good friends Monique felt deeply betrayed because if anything, Monique should want to beat up Gigi, her BFF for YEAR from back home.  And Monique and Charrisse had a formerly close relationship themselves. 

Why did Monique choose to disengage from Gigi & Charrisse, who started and spread the rumor but administered a beatdown on Candiace, who passed along a phone number?  And it can't be that Candiace threw such heavy emotional punches at Monique because until the winery incident, Candiace wasn't engaging with Monique at all.  "I'm Sleep/You Sleep" in and of itself isn't that much of a heavy emotional punch to be beating people over UNLESS I'm Sleep/You Sleep triggered you because it exposed your fakery.

In the end Candiace will probably never know why Monique is so mad at her because Monique doesn't know why herself.

I think the genuine friendship, at least from Monique's perspective (but maybe from Candiace's too) was Monique and Candiace. It's only in a genuine friendship that real betrayal can even be felt. I think Monique experienced it as a serious betrayal from a real life friend. She applies the rules unevenly because she doesn't consider the others real life, let's get the families together, friends, so it doesn't sting as much from them.  That's my best guess.

"Candiace wasn't engaging with Monique at all..." doesn't help because while she was not engaging with Monique, she was engaging with the women she'd had some problems with before, and maybe her and Monique used to commiserate about, and now suddenly Candiace is friendly with them. Monique consequently feels left out, Candiace is once again, "Who me? What did I do? Gee, what is Monique's problem!?"By not engaging with Monique, but actively engaging with the other women, Monique experiences rejection/disapproval/abandonment feelings and no one anywhere seems willing to acknowledge that, certainly not her husband, which only makes her feel more defensive, more angry, more hurt and more alone.

None of that, or anything else, excuses Monique's violence towards Candiace, but I do think there is more to look at in this relationship dynamic than "Monique is wrong, and that's the end of the discussion." JMO. 

I'm not trying to change any minds, just sharing how I see the situation.

 

[drivethroo]

57 minutes ago, Jel said:

I think the genuine friendship, at least from Monique's perspective (but maybe from Candiace's too) was Monique and Candiace. It's only in a genuine friendship that real betrayal can even be felt. I think Monique experienced it as a serious betrayal from a real life friend. She applies the rules unevenly because she doesn't consider the others real life, let's get the families together, friends, so it doesn't sting as much from them.  That's my best guess.

Not even Gigi, her best friend from back home? She's the one who started the rumor in the first place.  I don't understand having MORE anger at somebody who passed along a phone number than with the person who started the rumor in the first place.

 

57 minutes ago, Jel said:

"Candiace wasn't engaging with Monique at all..." doesn't help because while she was not engaging with Monique, she was engaging with the women she'd had some problems with before, and maybe her and Monique used to commiserate about, and now suddenly Candiace is friendly with them.

But her good friend Ashley was still engaging with Charrisse so why wasn't Monique also mad at Ashley for continuing to engage with Charrisse?

 It makes zero sense to have all this anger towards Candiace when Gigi and Charrisse are the ones starting and spreading the rumors.

And if you can decide not to engage with the people who started and spread the rumor, you can decide not to engage with the person who passed along a phone number.  The offense doesn't match the anger level, no matter how good a friends Monique was with Candiace vs the others.

57 minutes ago, Jel said:

Monique consequently feels left out,

So Monique's solution to being rejected (by people who aren't that great of friends with her anyway) is to beat up somebody?

57 minutes ago, Jel said:

Candiace is once again, "Who me? What did I do? Gee, what is Monique's problem!?"

Yes because the anger level from Monique does not match the crime.  It's the equivalent of giving the death penalty to somebody who stole a Snickers (Candiace) while letting a mass murderer off with probation (Gigi, Charrisse, Gizelle).

57 minutes ago, Jel said:

By not engaging with Monique, but actively engaging with the other women, Monique experiences rejection/disapproval/abandonment feelings and no one anywhere seems willing to acknowledge that, certainly not her husband, which only makes her feel more defensive, more angry, more hurt and more alone.

All of this can be true and none of it is any justification for Monique beating somebody up.  Maybe Monique needs to take the podcast money and invest in a good therapist

57 minutes ago, Jel said:

None of that, or anything else, excuses Monique's violence towards Candiace, but I do think there is more to look at in this relationship dynamic than "Monique is wrong, and that's the end of the discussion." JMO. 

If we look at it as a strictly workplace situation, it is the end of discussion. Nobody cares about the dynamics or any of that. You can't have one coworker beating up another coworker without there being some consequences. 

If we do examine the dynamics, the discussion almost always boils down to "Monique was wrong to beat up Candiace, (but she was justified because {insert reason here})." 

What I as a viewer want to examine, since we are examining dynamics, is why does Monique have this heat for Candiace, who played a minor role in this situation and not any heat for the major players?":

• Why are you so mad at Candiace for associating with Charrisse but not Ashley?
• Why are you so mad at Candiace for passing Charisse's phone number to Gigi but not as mad at Gigi and Charrisse for starting/spreading the rumor?
• Why are you turning up on Candiace for doing things other cast members are doing?
• If you believe Candiace is an active participant in the plot to destroy your marriage, why do you have this heat for her but not any of the other active participants?

I personally don't think this heat Monique has for Candiace has anything to do with phone numbers, plots or Charrisse.  Monique herself may not even know; that's why Candiace is walking around like "What did I do?"  For all we know Chris Samuels might have been staring at Candiace's booty a little too long when the two couples had get togethers or he could've made a comment about Candiace and that triggered Monique.

We may never know the answers to any of this, but what we do know is one coworker beat up & threatened another coworker in front of all the other workers, and those workers have the right not to be around the first coworker because they don't know if they'll be next.

 

 

 

Edited October 1, 2020 by drivethroo

[ButterQueen]

On 9/28/2020 at 10:17 AM, byrd said:

Obviously enough to take good care of Ashely and baby Dean. 

I doubt Ashley actually knows his true worth.  I’m sure a lot is hidden from her.  She needs to move on and find a nice man who will love her.  Same with Robyn and Giselle.  I doubt these greedy women, except for maybe Robyn, even love these men.  This show has been so dull, I wouldn’t doubt if the fight was producer driven....who knows.

[ButterQueen]

On 9/28/2020 at 9:50 AM, Boofish said:

Gizelle's house is just as messy as she is

Gizelle's daughters DO NOT want to be on TV and she needs to respect that

If the producer wants to know how many kids Jamal has, she should ask the internet. She will probably get a response in 10 minutes or less. The internet delivers quicker than 1990 Dominoes.

Oh Monique ... oh hon .. why. If you had just "let her go" and not did the one more run up for good measure.... oh hon *insert sideways grandmother face with hand on hip for effect*

Lots of "hood rat" "ghetto" etc flying around. Don't recall any of those names when the white women across franchises got violent and it has happened but moving on.

Not sure why the comparison, but the HW’s themselves used the words hood rat ghetto.

[ButterQueen]

On 9/28/2020 at 10:31 AM, byrd said:

Well if you think that was the worst  then obviously you did not see Porsha Williams drag Kenya Moore all the way across the floor by her hair. or Evelyn Lozada from Basketball wives jump from a table top to attack someone or Theresa Gudice turn over a table.  Emotion run very high on these show..

Lol !!!

Not to mention the fight that never aired with the Jersey men in some bar and Theresa throwing Andy in his chair.  😂😂😂

[ButterQueen]

On 9/28/2020 at 12:07 PM, Boofish said:

Why is everyone acting like women who marry well should be grateful for him .. his ass getting something out the deal as well. What happened with Candiace aside - Chris got a beautiful wife, 3 gorgeous kids. Monique is no slouch; everyone saying Chris can do better, hell so can Monique and Ashley for that matter! Monique seemed like she was down to earth and didn't take herself too seriously until she contracted Housewife Syndrome. 

I did not marry a poor man and I don't care who knows it or what they think. I didn't live 53 years only to marry a man with no assets. Financial stability was on my vision board. I'm not about to struggle. Didn't struggle without you and for damn sure not about to struggle with you. If this was a 30 year marriage and sickness or something catastrophic happened that is a different perspective. But I sought out a man who had means. Not ashamed and wouldn't change a thing. Call it gold digging if you want *Kayne shrug* 

 

Love was on my vision board, and luckily financial wealth was an added bonus.  I would never marry for money.  Sadly, he died unexpectedly from cancer in April....wish I could trade the money to have him back.  😢

Edited October 1, 2020 by ButterQueen

[ButterQueen]

On 9/28/2020 at 8:31 PM, Boofish said:

I have done things at the moment I didnt regret and justified for years. Years and maturity helped me with self awareness. Monique not having immediate regret seems very real and unfortunately relateable.

I agree.  Life isn’t always so black and white.  It’s emotional..

[Iguessnot]

34 minutes ago, ButterQueen said:

Not sure why the comparison, but the HW’s themselves used the words hood rat ghetto.

Trailer trash is used a lot for the white women along with mafia terms for the Jersey women. And now we have Karen. They all give us a cultural reference for behaviors. Calling her a barrio Belinda doesn't give me any reference.

[ButterQueen]

Just now, Iguessnot said:

Trailer trash is used a lot for the white women along with mafia terms for the Jersey women. And now we have Karen. They all give us a cultural reference for behaviors. Calling her a barrio Belinda doesn't give me any reference.

Who called who Barrio Belinda?

[Iguessnot]

6 minutes ago, ButterQueen said:

Who called who Barrio Belinda?

No one did. It was kind of a joke of the hood rat term that some feel is racially charged.  I don't know what terms the Latinos use for their badly behaving young ladies in the hood so I just said Barrio Belinda. You have to have patience with this old woman.🥺

[Boofish]

50 minutes ago, ButterQueen said:

Love was on my vision board, and luckily financial wealth was an added bonus.  I would never marry for money.  Sadly, he died unexpectedly from cancer in April....wish I could trade the money to have him back.  😢

I'm so sorry. I hope you have some great memories to look back on.

Of course I married my husband for love. Let me clarify I have my own money; I'm no slouch either 😘. 

[RealReality]

3 hours ago, Jel said:

I don't follow any of these women off the show, so I don't really know what's happening beyond what I see on tv and what I read here.  And I don't have a good memory for these shows either, but if I did, I feel confident that I could come up with an equally eyebrow-raising list of things Candiace has said and done. But even if I couldn't, it wouldn't really change my opinion about this situation.  I think Candiace is very smart and very savvy, very verbal, can be fun and charming.  And while it's plain that Candiace is no match for Monique physically, it's less plainly obvious that Monique is no match for Candiace in smarts, verbal skills, and savvy.  Nonetheless, that disparity exists, imo.

To address your specific questions, no, I wouldn't treat friends that way.  And I can't speak to how others use the term "emotional abuse", but I know I don't throw it out with reckless abandon, (not even with regular abandon). I don't think it was a case of just happening to be friends with someone Monique wasn't friends with, it was more of a case of actively forging a friendship with someone who was trying to harm Monique, and then acting as though there wasn't anything strange about that at all. 

If there was someone you knew of, who you believed was saying things, really hurtful, potentially marriage ruining things about you, and then after learning that, your "friend" decides to suddenly, newly, befriend that person?  That wouldn't strike you as odd? And then when  you asked about it, your friend doesn't acknowledge your hurt, but instead dismisses your feelings and pretends that it's a perfectly normal, perfectly friend-like, non-hurtful thing to do? And maybe you're the weirdo for thinking and feeling otherwise? (That's the emotional abuse part.)  I can say for sure, that if you were my RL friend, I would not be actively going out looking to make a new friendship with the person who you felt was trying to hurt you, in fact, I'd have a very low opinion of a person who would do that to my friend. So low, in fact, that I'd probably not want to engage with that person on any level, never mind inviting her to my parties.  That just seems very basic friend code to me, and this particular brand of friend code violation seems especially egregious to me. 

None of that is to say Monique is a perfect angel, and it's only Candiace who can do the hurting in this relationship; that would be absurd. But I am saying when it comes to emotional or psychological stuff, it's Candiace who throws the harder punch, imo. YMMV.

By my account, Monique has thrown Candace under the bus with Ashley (text messages), conspired (on camera IIRC) to be part of a plan to freeze Candace out and publicly shames her but then is privately her friend.  To me, that is far more strategic than Candace, who has not been accused of spreading any rumors and has not said a solitary word about the rumors on air.  

We have no idea what state the Candace and Charisse friendship was in when the rumors were started or spread.  Clearly, they were good enough friends for Candace to have her number to give to Gigi.  If they were good friends before Charisse spread rumors, than its not a matter of Candace befriending Charisse to get back at Monique. We don't know exactly how close Charisse and Candace are and when they began their friendship.  Monique was mad, but there were like 200 people at that party.  It shouldn't be that big a deal to invite two people who don't like each other to a party of 200 people.  So, to say that Candace saying its not a big deal is emotional abuse is a stretch to me.  Had Candace invited Charisse to an intimate dinner between the girls and then said "meh," THAT would suck and I could see the argument for emotional abuse in dismissing Monique's complaints.  

Yeah, as a friend, there are some people I would ride for until the wheels fall off.  But, if I had a friend who had a history of throwing me under the bus, disrespecting me in public in order to make herself look better and had just reestablished a friendship with me after hurting me I'd be unlikely to ride that hard for them. 

Particularly if I had cultivated the friendship with someone else prior to the beef between friends.  If you have two friends, on an equal plane, who are fighting with each other, why would you choose sides?  We don't even know when Charisse and Candace became friends or friendly.  

Yeah, my mileage varies.  I think Monique has been equally bad, if not worse than Candace psychologically. 

Candace made a friend and invited her to a party with 200 other people.  Candace didn't force a situation where Monique would have to talk to Charisse, and in fact, Monique turned tail and ran though it was a great opportunity for her to put the rumors to bed on camera.  We do not even know how close Candace and Charisse are or became, or when their friendship became close or what the impetus was for that. Maybe its all about Monique and maybe it isn't.  

I mean, if I had a friend, I'd probably ask them these questions privately instead of trying to ambush them with it at a dinner....but thats just me.  She had Candace's number, but she waited all the way until a dinner to ask her about something that hurt her so badly?  Had she asked instead of ambushed maybe she would have gotten an answer that made sense.  But, the audio they played of Monique made it sound like she was fine with Candace privately.

Alternatively, Monique has agreed to a plan to get Candace fired off the show and there is no indication that she gave her any warning it was going to happen, she threw her under the bus by showing private text messages to Ashley and she routinely is nice to her in private and cruel and demeaning to her in public around the "cool girls"  To me, that is as bad, if not worse.  

TBF I also didn't think it was emotionally abusive when Karen pretty much said that it wasn't a big deal that she invited Kendyll to her function, even though Gizelle hated her.  

[RealReality]

2 hours ago, Jel said:

 

"Candiace wasn't engaging with Monique at all..." doesn't help because while she was not engaging with Monique, she was engaging with the women she'd had some problems with before, and maybe her and Monique used to commiserate about, and now suddenly Candiace is friendly with them. Monique consequently feels left out, Candiace is once again, "Who me? What did I do? Gee, what is Monique's problem!?"By not engaging with Monique, but actively engaging with the other women, Monique experiences rejection/disapproval/abandonment feelings and no one anywhere seems willing to acknowledge that, certainly not her husband, which only makes her feel more defensive, more angry, more hurt and more alone.

 

 

If Monique is not engaging with the other women, thats solely on her.  

Even after Monique threw her under the bus, Candace engaged with Ashley.  

So Candace has to hold onto a grudge until the end of time to please Monique?  While Monique is not only happy to move on with someone like Ashley, but will also throw Candace under the bus to get closer to her?

One of the most admirable things that Candace has done this season is to actively apologize and mend fences.  I guess Monique is hurt that Candace wants to get along with others?  

Monique would do the same to Candace in a heartbeat and was happy to chat to other castmembers about freezing Candace out.  So, its okay for Monique to get with the other women, but not Candace?  

If Monique feels like she isn't as engaged as Candace, thats her own fault and no one elses.  Candace doesn't need to stop making friends to make Monique feel better about the fact that she isn't the dominant "cool girl" she wants to be.  

To me, it would be weird as hell for Monique to have a problem with Candace working to not the be the village outcast.  But I think Monique enjoys Candace as the outcast because that makes her an easier target and at the end of the day, Monique is a bully.

After she shared texts with Ashley, I don't think Candace should feel comfortable commiserating with Monique about anyone.  

Monique's estrangement and feeling isolated from the group are not Candace's responsibility or problem.  Monique is responsible for her isolation from the group.  She burned bridges with Gizelle, and so I doubt that Robyn will ever be very friendly with her either.  Wendy was brought on as a friend of Candace and it doesn't seem like Monique had gone out of her way to get to know Wendy before she went off on her friend at the lakehouse for no damn reason, so Wendy was probably already disposed to side eye her.  Monique treats Candace like shit in public, but sweet talks her in private, was rude to her when she was leaving the lakehouse and wanted to invite her on a podcast to antagonize her and so why would Candace be her ride or die?

So, Monique, BY HER OWN ACTIONS, has Karen and Ashley.  

[red12]

7 hours ago, Keywestclubkid said:

Or he will be free of her if he thinks she is "acting" and this isnt who she is "off" camera .... there are always two sides to every story and the story we are getting from Karen is its ALL Ray .....

I don't at all believe that Karen's side is the only side of the story. My point was that before anyone takes it to "I might not love you anymore.", that person needs to be clear they are possibly ushering in the end of the current phase of the relationship. Maybe he is already clear and a great actor when he seemed surprised at the negative reaction. I don't know.

[Jel]

1 hour ago, drivethroo said:

Not even Gigi, her best friend from back home? She's the one who started the rumor in the first place.  I don't understand having MORE anger at somebody who passed along a phone number than with the person who started the rumor in the first place.

 

But her good friend Ashley was still engaging with Charrisse so why wasn't Monique also mad at Ashley for continuing to engage with Charrisse?

 It makes zero sense to have all this anger towards Candiace when Gigi and Charrisse are the ones starting and spreading the rumors.

And if you can decide not to engage with the people who started and spread the rumor, you can decide not to engage with the person who passed along a phone number.  The offense doesn't match the anger level, no matter how good a friends Monique was with Candiace vs the others.

So Monique's solution to being rejected (by people who aren't that great of friends with her anyway) is to beat up somebody?

Yes because the anger level from Monique does not match the crime.  It's the equivalent of giving the death penalty to somebody who stole a Snickers (Candiace) while letting a mass murderer off with probation (Gigi, Charrisse, Gizelle).

All of this can be true and none of it is any justification for Monique beating somebody up.  Maybe Monique needs to take the podcast money and invest in a good therapist

If we look at it as a strictly workplace situation, it is the end of discussion. Nobody cares about the dynamics or any of that. You can't have one coworker beating up another coworker without there being some consequences. 

If we do examine the dynamics, the discussion almost always boils down to "Monique was wrong to beat up Candiace, (but she was justified because {insert reason here})." 

What I as a viewer want to examine, since we are examining dynamics, is why does Monique have this heat for Candiace, who played a minor role in this situation and not any heat for the major players?":

• Why are you so mad at Candiace for associating with Charrisse but not Ashley?
• Why are you so mad at Candiace for passing Charisse's phone number to Gigi but not as mad at Gigi and Charrisse for starting/spreading the rumor?
• Why are you turning up on Candiace for doing things other cast members are doing?
• If you believe Candiace is an active participant in the plot to destroy your marriage, why do you have this heat for her but not any of the other active participants?

I personally don't think this heat Monique has for Candiace has anything to do with phone numbers, plots or Charrisse.  Monique herself may not even know; that's why Candiace is walking around like "What did I do?"  For all we know Chris Samuels might have been staring at Candiace's booty a little too long when the two couples had get togethers or he could've made a comment about Candiace and that triggered Monique.

We may never know the answers to any of this, but what we do know is one coworker beat up & threatened another coworker in front of all the other workers, and those workers have the right not to be around the first coworker because they don't know if they'll be next.

 

 

 

I keep saying this, every post, and here it is, one more time: Nothing Candiace did or said meant Monique was justified in assaulting her. Monique was wrong to do that.  And Candiace has done some noteworthy, eyebrow-raising things as well, which may have contributed to the downfall of their friendship.  That's NOT to say that Monique earned a right to assault Candiace. These are two separate topics worthy of discussion, imo,  but neither of them is, either overtly or covertly; stated, implied or dog whistled, "But let's be real -- what did Candiace do to deserve that assault?" I seriously, sincerely do not think Candiace deserved to be assaulted. The fact I have to keep typing that out is beyond bizarre to me as well, but...2020.

Honest question: is it really crazy or out of line to think that Candiace may have had any role in the demise of her friendship with Monique? Is that an outrageous idea, that we can't or shouldn't even discuss? 

I'd be interested in knowing the same things you are interested in knowing, dynamics-wise, so I regret we didn't get to learn more about that.

Tbh, I don't really know who Gigi is. I've read here that she is Monique's friend, but I don't remember her from the show, so I have absolutely no sense of their friendship. 

I think there will be consequences for Monique re: the show. I would be surprised if they asked her back for next year.

[RealReality]

5 hours ago, TwopLurker said:

Per the screenshots, Candiace cancelled the podcast on September 21st and the 20 person event was scheduled for October 12th. Monique was relying on Kurn and Candiace to help sell tickets since it's clear nobody is interested in Not for Lazy Moms. 

I binged the earlier seasons before this one started, Monique has threatened to get physical from her first talking heads. 

Baby Chase is clearly all his father. Monique probably enjoyed her hour or two a week where she got to chit chat with a handsome man and not be mommy for a bit. In my experience, trainers are 75% psychologist, 25% actual exercise information; which is totally fine! She should not have gone out with this gentleman, group or not, assuming any of that is true, IMO. They're all public figures now (uh, hello Michael Darby), and should really be hyper aware of their actions out in public. 

Giselle's girls seem like sweet, quiet kids who are just counting down the seconds until the cameras go away. I've never seen kids who seem to disconnected from their father, not a single one of them lights up around him. I hope Giselle's father is around long enough to help them get into good schools and their first jobs because their own dad certainly ain't shit.

 

 

Had Monique spun it right, she could have strategically used the rumor to further her storyline and the business.

The question of where the appropriate boundaries are for married couples with members of the opposite sex would be a valid questions for a number of people, IMO.  Are married people allowed to flirt at all?  According to Blanche Deveraux, flirting while married kept your butt tight.  How friendly is "too friendly?"  Do married couples allow their s/o to have friends of the opposite sex?  If so, is it tempting fate or do you just have to trust your s/o.  

Monique could have brought her pastor onto the broadcast, she could have maybe made it a panel with other married couples...maybe Karen/Ray and Candace/Chris and maybe even Robyn/Juan (since he has a history of cheating).  

Monique could have talked about how she went to the club with her trainer, but really didn't think it was a violation of trust or a crossing of boundaries.  She could have her pastor and his wife explain why that wouldn't be appropriate, and she could have had a "revelation" about how, from Chris S.'s point of view it would not be respectful of their marriage.  

It would have been so much easier and so much more effective than desperately trying to prevent it from getting on the show.  Obviously, Bravo was going to put it on the show, so she should have controlled the narrative.  

[charliesan]

Maybe I'm totally wrong, but I remember last season Candiace got mad at Monique because, out of the whole group, she expected Monique to have her back and instead she aligned herself with Ashley, her previous nemesis.

As much as I liked Monique way more than Candiace I have to say I always thought that Monique always cared too much about her social status, inside and outside of the group, and when she saw an opening to befriend Ashley (who has more money than Candiace) she took it without looking back. 

I'll be the first to admit that when news broke about the fight I was team Monique all the way and thought to myself (thank God I don't usually post anything outside of this forum) "well Candiace deserved it". Now watching the episodes I realize that Monique did probably plant all of these "leaks" to bloggers  to form popular opinion and probably thought Bravo would favor her in the editing process because so far she had been coming off pretty well in the past. She thought since Candiace had been having issues with the other ladies (mainly Gizelle and Ashley) and because she was deemed the villain of last season it would've been pretty easy to gain the reputation of the good girl who fights back. 

Again, just like with the Kendyl situation, she shot and MAJORLY missed. 

[RealReality]

@Jel - its hard for me to say there was ever genuine friendship on both sides or maybe either side.  

I can say that Candace hasn't said a word about these rumors on air, not a peep, and apparently she hasn't been spreading the rumors either.  And this is the same girl who could barely hold the "juicy nugget" of information that she heard Michael Darby saying he wanted to sucks a guys dick.  

Which is only to say that Candace isn't a naturally discreet person, she wants to spill tea just like all the other cast members.  She didn't hesitate to put Michael's comments out while the cameras were rolling.  But even after Monique's treatment gave her every reason to lash out at her and spread rumors and talk about the rumors on TV....Candace didn't.  

[LaurelleJ]

2 hours ago, RealReality said:

@Jel - its hard for me to say there was ever genuine friendship on both sides or maybe either side.  

I can say that Candace hasn't said a word about these rumors on air, not a peep, and apparently she hasn't been spreading the rumors either.  And this is the same girl who could barely hold the "juicy nugget" of information that she heard Michael Darby saying he wanted to sucks a guys dick.  

Which is only to say that Candace isn't a naturally discreet person, she wants to spill tea just like all the other cast members.  She didn't hesitate to put Michael's comments out while the cameras were rolling.  But even after Monique's treatment gave her every reason to lash out at her and spread rumors and talk about the rumors on TV....Candace didn't.  

True. She didn't talk about them on camera. Either she didn't at all, or it hasn't been shown. Remember, producers can tell their stories. 

I think the most damaging thing that she did was the live where she spoke about the plot that they supposedly made to say that Monique's youngest was not hers. That was way after this incident, and just a few months ago. It implicates her "friends" so I'm surprised that she did that. Gizelle and friends cannot say that is false without saying that Candiace is lying. I always thought Monique's problem was that she heard it from Karen, but Candiace did not call her about it the way Karen did, and only spoke to Monique about it when Monique asked. 

[Chalby]

On 9/27/2020 at 8:27 PM, CeceliaBedelia said:

 There is also the whole level of “she asked for it” or “she made me do it” ickiness that I’ll never get past.

I think Monique was 100% in the wrong for both her actions and with her lack of remorse. However, I have never liked Candiace and her mouth makes me want to slap her.  I thought seeing Candiace being shut down would be satisfying, but it was not. Gutter trash all around.

[drivethroo]

46 minutes ago, LaurelleJ said:

True. She didn't talk about them on camera. Either she didn't at all, or it hasn't been shown. Remember, producers can tell their stories. 

If the producers are holding back scenes of Candiace to tell a story, they could be doing it as "git back" for the cameraman butt grabbing incident from last season.  The producers may not believe Chris & Monique have security cameras everywhere EXCEPT where the incident took place.

However I don't think the cast AND the producers came together like Voltron to show Monique in a bad light when the plan all along was to get Candiace the villain edit (and exit).

46 minutes ago, LaurelleJ said:

I think the most damaging thing that she did was the live where she spoke about the plot that they supposedly made to say that Monique's youngest was not hers. That was way after this incident, and just a few months ago. It implicates her "friends" so I'm surprised that she did that. Gizelle and friends cannot say that is false without saying that Candiace is lying.

Or Candiace could've told that story to say "Other cast members actually formed a plot to take down Monique, yet she is only coming after me.  Hmm...".  Monique has been endlessly giving press conferences without reporters on IG about Candiace.  She's spoken on Gizelle who allegedly was the ringleader of the plot a couple of times but most of her ire has been directed to Candiace.

30 minutes ago, Chalby said:

I thought seeing Candiace being shut down would be satisfying, but it was not.

It's not satisfying because the punishment didn't fit the crime.  If Monique had shifted Candiace's wig or ripped her shirt or flipped up the table at Candiace she would have a lot more sympathy.  Instead she created a lot of drama for being triggered by some "I'm Sleep/You Sleep".

Edited October 2, 2020 by drivethroo