The Vow

[Cheezwiz]

1 hour ago, For Cereals said:

we were supposed to be “mindful,” but the message was always about how you were responsible.  Feeling stressed?  You need to figure out work/life balance...maybe meditate in your car over lunch.

Yes, MINDFULNESS. Gawd. That term went from something innocuous (to try and appreciate the here and now), to being co-opted as boardroom double-speak in record time. Now it's frickin' everywhere - there are even whole magazines about mindfulness.

I'm so glad I work in a place that doesn't utilize this bafflegab.

[tljgator]

2 hours ago, luckyroll3 said:

I'm wondering if the weight/counting calories thing has anything to do psychologically with Keith's life partner who died of cancer, especially as it seems like Allison took her place literally and figuratively?

I wondered the same thing, luckyroll3. I know that hunger and all the things they had to do here are very much built in to many control strategies, but when they showed the images of his partner, and we got the basic exposition about that relationship (would really like to know more about that...granted, I could have been distracted because my brain was still stuck on what Lovecraft Country had shown - yikes, and missed some things), and then we saw how rail-thin many of these women were who were involved with him/in this, specifically, it made me consider a lot of possibilities I hadn't thought about before.

[pigs-in-space]

3 hours ago, luckyroll3 said:

Can you share the links you found?

Her name is Michele Hatchette - the Frank report as well as a local Brooklyn news site has some stuff on her. She and a few cult members (including Nicki Clyne) are regularly dancing outside the Brooklyn jail where Keith is being held.

 

2 hours ago, luckyroll3 said:

Speaking of Allison, the part where they meet for the first time is so damn cringey. I had to rewind it a few times because I was having difficulty understanding what Keith was getting at.  "Art is for people who can't do"? What a load of bullshit! And the way he was looking at Allison....how did her creep-dar not immediately go off. She clearly liked it though, and added her own cringiness with her popped cherry comment. Ugh!

Yeah, can’t do what, exactly? Sell more MLM self-help propaganda to naive people? Because despite all his patents he doesn’t seem to be doing much besides playing volleyball and taking walks in the middle of the night. 

[Tachi Rocinante]

3 hours ago, luckyroll3 said:

I'm wondering if the weight/counting calories thing has anything to do psychologically with Keith's life partner who died of cancer, especially as it seems like Allison took her place literally and figuratively?

More creepy results from research . . .

Spoiler

The Frank Report guy seems to think Keith slowly poisoned her, and possibly others.

 

[blixie]

Quote

 We’re also finally told there’s at least one black member of the cult. 

Oh they for sure showed a couple of black folks, a decent amount of NBPOC in the videos of the five days and intensives, but it still is a cult that is overwhelmingly white. 

I'm finding this doc super riveting and I still don't find it "one sided" again for the 100th time a documentary is NOT journalism. It isn't obligated to provide the viewer with "all sides" not that I think Journalism has to do that either. There aren't sides to facts, and bias is inherent to every human endeavor. I WANT journalism and art with a fucking point of view and opinion.

I really love that in all these cult exposes there's always this moment when the person who is now out describes when SHIT got bananas and that they knew they had to make a big decision and guess what they opted and leaned even further into BANANAS. Jane said it, Keith was creeping me out and but then he called me a chicken so I drove into the truck of his dick. I don't feel safe with you, but, am I open to fucking you? YEEEEEES. Paul Haggis has a similar though far less jar dropping response to the secret alien BS with Scientology that he described as an "insanity test" and that he decided to pass/accept said insanity test. As for her not being in ESP, I think for sure it's all more or less a mishmash. That was the reason the first ep went over all the groups/companies that were under Vanguard/Precept because all these different groups were essentially marketing to different kinds of communities fame seeking actors, real artistes, execs-business, SAHM and Grandmas types. Also DOS was special and meant specifically for Keith to get laid and it did operate more or less as an independent stream of membership, but Jane also had to go the New Rome, aka Albany. But once they were in Albany the rest of ESP community became their world/life. 



 

[luckyroll3]

8 minutes ago, Tachi Rocinante said:

More creepy results from research . . .

  Hide contents

The Frank Report guy seems to think Keith slowly poisoned her, and possibly others.

 

Yikes!

30 minutes ago, pigs-in-space said:

Her name is Michele Hatchette - the Frank report as well as a local Brooklyn news site has some stuff on her. She and a few cult members (including Nicki Clyne) are regularly dancing outside the Brooklyn jail where Keith is being held.

 

Yeah, can’t do what, exactly? Sell more MLM self-help propaganda to naive people? Because despite all his patents he doesn’t seem to be doing much besides playing volleyball and taking walks in the middle of the night. 

Thanks for sharing!

And also the dancing outside of the correctional facility - holy shit that is bonkers.

 

[EdnasEdibles]

I know this is likely a sign for disordered eating on my part but man, I would love to have someone who just told me what I can eat and what I can't eat. But with a normal calorie allowance. Like a dietitian, I guess. But a very pushy bossy dietitian. "Hey, can I eat four more of those salted caramel almonds from Aldi?" and she'd be like "NO! Dammit, you just had 4 like 2 minutes ago. What is WRONG with you? Do you want to spend all of your extra money buying new pants?!"

Someone develop a cult like this. But you know, again, with a normal amount of calories based on my height and activity level. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

1 hour ago, luckyroll3 said:

Yikes!

Thanks for sharing!

And also the dancing outside of the correctional facility - holy shit that is bonkers.

 

It looked like people inside the prison were blinking their lights on and off which made me wonder if Keith is using that as a way to communicate with them. It's also possible that I've watched too many episodes of shows like L&O: SVU but the thought still crossed my mind.

7 hours ago, Giant Misfit said:

The only takeaway I'm getting from this show is there seems to be an infinite amount of educated, upper-middle-class people completely devoid of critical thinking skills. 

But with lots of disposable income for the endless classes they have to take and plenty of free time to recruit new members/take 16 day seminars/play volleyball!

5 hours ago, luckyroll3 said:

Speaking of Allison, the part where they meet for the first time is so damn cringey. I had to rewind it a few times because I was having difficulty understanding what Keith was getting at.  "Art is for people who can't do"? What a load of bullshit! And the way he was looking at Allison....how did her creep-dar not immediately go off. She clearly liked it though, and added her own cringiness with her popped cherry comment. Ugh!

I was creeped out by that scene too. Both of them were so cringey (Allison for her obvious eagerness to make a connection with him no matter what she had to do - agree with him, show vulnerability by crying, asking for an EM from him - and Keith for his college freshman getting high and explaining his version of deep philosophy with his roommates act).

[MakingBacon]

CBC’s Uncover has a great multi-episode podcast of the group. Sarah plays a big part in it as she went to school with the narrator/reporter. There are a lot more details in there than I have seen for far from this show. The podcast made me really dislike Sarah and The Vow has done nothing to change that view. It’s obvious she was in it much deeper than she claims. She seems to spin the story in her favor. I also think Sarah was hurt Keith didn’t try to have sec with her. 

I have a lot of respect for Bonnie. I wonder if still working on her music and performing, being around non-KR people while with the group, helped her realize she needed out. I hope she has moved on from Marc because I feel like he is going to jump into any and every group that is selling magic beans. Marc seems to be the type of person who wants to follow someone else and let them make the life decisions. 

It seems as though the hardcore members had no life outside the group. I agree with the other posters. If Keith was bringing so much change to the world, why haven’t we seen it? The only people who seemed to change are the ones who have given everything up for him. 

I am still trying to understand how allowing yourself to be branded, becoming a slave to a woman, maybe getting to have your own female slaves and then having sex with the male head of the cult is somehow empowering as a woman. Do these women not even realize, at the end of the day, it was Keith who had all the power over the women? It’s just as ridiculous those stupid Fifty Shades of Grey books. 

[Door County Cherry]

6 hours ago, luckyroll3 said:

Speaking of Allison, the part where they meet for the first time is so damn cringey. I had to rewind it a few times because I was having difficulty understanding what Keith was getting at.  "Art is for people who can't do"? What a load of bullshit! And the way he was looking at Allison....how did her creep-dar not immediately go off. She clearly liked it though, and added her own cringiness with her popped cherry comment. Ugh!

Right.  The whole "we shouldn't need art to feel what art makes us feel" was just so absurd.  And to see her react as if this were a major epiphany had me laughing out loud because she's an actress. Making yourself feel something you might not otherwise be feeling but do so in order to portray your character is what she does for a living!  

It's just really interesting to me that he's basically saying that we shouldn't need art invalidates what she chose to do with her life and she's all "fuck me!" I guess this is how negging works.  

But really, it looks like she was jonesing for him right away. "Pop my cherry." "You're making me blush."  *vomit* 

3 hours ago, blixie said:

I really love that in all these cult exposes there's always this moment when the person who is now out describes when SHIT got bananas and that they knew they had to make a big decision and guess what they opted and leaned even further into BANANAS. Jane said it, Keith was creeping me out and but then he called me a chicken so I drove into the truck of his dick. I don't feel safe with you, but, am I open to fucking you? YEEEEEES. 

There is nothing quite like the sunken cost fallacy.  She was really a follower of "Rachel."  Rachel was cool and her life was what Jane wanted and she probably had a bit of a platonic crush.  She didn't want to be out of Rachel's life so she opened herself up to Keith.  

2 hours ago, EdnasEdibles said:

I know this is likely a sign for disordered eating on my part but man, I would love to have someone who just told me what I can eat and what I can't eat. But with a normal calorie allowance. Like a dietitian, I guess. But a very pushy bossy dietitian.

What you describe sounds like an accountability coach.  This is not an endorsement but rather to inform you that this is a real thing.  

6 hours ago, DanaK said:

I started to get involved in a different church at some point when I was in college (it may have been my freshman year, but I don't recall for sure as it was nearly 40 years ago).

 

13 hours ago, Cheezwiz said:

So much of the filmed word salad training sessions (along with the bullshit forced volleyball games) we see also reminded me of corporate nonsense I have witnessed in the past.

Yes!  I think that's what is so weird about this.  It's so easy to look at this from a distance and wonder what they were thinking.  But for me, what strikes me so much is how familiar it is.  

I've been to retreats that celebrated joining and togetherness and made people feel good about themselves.  I am an introvert so "joining" doesn't hold a special attraction but for those who do, I can see why people get sucked into those good feelings. 

And the blank faces while people clapped for whatever they were celebrating is just like any other meeting or event where clapping feels perfunctory.  That, along with the word salad definitely felt corporatey or things we do at jobs.  I would love to break the performative happiness but the thing is, there are people who really get into it. 

 

[Armchair Critic]

When Mark said something like they stole he and his wife’s marriage I assumed they broke up so I was surprised they are still together. I don’t feel sympathy for Mark, he bugs me.

Also I get a real bitch vibe from Sarah and believe she was involved in bullying others.

I would be sitting on the sofa with a bag of Doritos and not asking for permission from my “Master”. I know they must have kept track of their weight, but unless they had a hidden camera or frequently came over and checked your house they cannot know everything you eat. And screw that having to answer texts immediately shit but I know it was all about control.

Keith looked like an idiot with the ponytail/sweatband combination but I guess it’s like the Emperor who wore no clothes.

Alison Mack has a great smile but boy did she get in deep and ended up being awful.

I am feeling old when I am closer in age to Catherine Oxenberg (who still looks good) than her daughter.

[Door County Cherry]

1 hour ago, Armchair Critic said:

Keith looked like an idiot with the ponytail/sweatband combination but I guess it’s like the Emperor who wore no clothes.

Ha.  There were many reasons I didn't think this documentary was being kind to him but if there were any more doubts, surely the freeze frame of his crazy eyes as he was about to serve would have laid those to rest. 

[blixie]

Vanguard is for sure the creepiest biggest nerd I have ever seen and all the volleyball it's such a Napoleon thing to focus on, most good V-ballers are super tall but he is a short man who will teach YOU a thing or two about how to play the volley ball and find ZE JOY, and even ZE PAIN,  but not ZE suffering. Also fuck art, art is dumb. 

 

[Armchair Critic]

The way Sarah looks for her main interviews reminds me of when a criminal comes into court dressed as the stereotypical mousy librarian (yes I know they don’t all look that way, my SIL was one). It makes me think she wants to appear innocent since she looks different than how she has been shown to usually look.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

The moment in this episode that made me give Sarah the side eye was when she leapt up to show Catherine her brand. She seemed way too eager to show that off. I also noticed that when Catherine said she had done research and learned that branding can cause a disassociative state, Sarah did not pipe up and mention how BADASS she was when she blanked out.

[fountain]

38 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

The moment in this episode that made me give Sarah the side eye was when she leapt up to show Catherine her brand. She seemed way too eager to show that off. I also noticed that when Catherine said she had done research and learned that branding can cause a disassociative state, Sarah did not pipe up and mention how BADASS she was when she blanked out.

I thought that too. Catherine didn’t really seem to want to see it either she kind of begrudgingly said okay. Nippy seemed to have a “good god not this again” look, like Sarah is constantly doing this and he is embarrassed already.

[bilgistic]

I am loving these comments.

I "grew up in church" (Southern Baptist) and always had too many questions to which no one would give me straight answers. I pretty much ran from religion as soon as I left home for college. It's my belief that all religion is a cult of some form. I know that's a controversial take and I don't expect people to agree with it, but the way these people talk is the same way I heard pastors talk for years and years. It's all selling some "better" way of living. Both Keith and Mark give me very uncomfortable 1980s youth pastor vibes.

How anyone doesn't pick up immediately on Keith being a creeper makes me feel sorry for them. The dude oozes slime through my screen and I don't think I ever saw him or knew his name before this series. I just knew there was a Hollywood sex cult that had something to do with actors on the CW.

[luckyroll3]

1 hour ago, bilgistic said:

It's my belief that all religion is a cult of some form. I know that's a controversial take and I don't expect people to agree with it, but the way these people talk is the same way I heard pastors talk for years and years.

It's actually not a controversial take; it's Sociology 101. Although the term now has this extremely nefarious connotation, in the strictest sense of the definition, all churches essentially began as cults. They were small sects that broke off from the main, dominant group and had their own ideology and philosophy and used charismatic leaders to attract new followers and build their memberships. Eventually, many become mainstream enough to coexist, to some extent, or rather to be tolerated to exist. Christianity is one of the most successful cults of all time and it started with 1 guy, his 13 disciples (I'm counting Mary Magdalene), and a radical new take on scriptures/beliefs that had already existed for thousands of years! Now I don't think Jesus was holding midnight volleyball sessions, but if Luke came to tell me that I should come listen to this dude talk because he could walk on water and turn it into wine and he's gonna change the world. I'd be giving the hardest side-eye! 

Edited September 15, 2020 by luckyroll3

[Cheezwiz]

Just finished episode 4.

Holy crap, Keith's word-salad seems word-saladier than ever this ep. Re: the religious comparison - yes, I can see that as much as I can see the parallels to the corporate world as well. After all, they are both things people worship. Keith definitely has the air of a stoned philopsophy major pontificating away in a dorm, mixed with an earnest Christian youth pastor - strumming on a guitar or something. YUCK. I was shocked that he actually had a long-term partner.

Others above commented on how cringeworthy Alison Mack's intro to Keith was. I agree, but I think EVERYTHING about her is actually just pure cringe. I think all of the shots of her with her pasted-on ecstatic smile makes my skin crawl even more than the footage Keith. And you can see her shrinking progressively through the course of the episode. She's creepy as hell.

I don't like Sarah. I have no clue why she's so eager to show off her brand - just bizarre. I think she's furiously backpedaling with this documentary hoping to rehabilitate her image or something. I feel kinda bad for Nippy, as he seems fairly straightforward and honest. I don't think she is.

Major props to the poster above who noted their kid's observation that for an organization that's supposed to b world-changing, they never frickin' DO anything! All they do is attend seminars, go for walks, and play volleyball. Did none of the recruits pick up on this?

Really interesting that they left out the info that Catherine Oxenberg was the one who had joined the cult and then introduced her daughter to it. Kind of an important piece of info to omit, no?

 

[Cheezwiz]

Oh, well looky here, via casual net-surfing I've just discovered that Sarah Edmonson has actually written and released a book about her experiences entitled "Scarred: The True Story of How I Escaped NXIVM, The Cult That Bound My Life".

Not gonna bother posting the image, as those of us who have watched the series so far have already seen her badass brand, but GUESS WHAT SHE'S DOING IN HER COVER PHOTO!? 

Something's still seriously wrong with her.

 

 

Edited September 15, 2020 by Cheezwiz
I do my best proofreading after I hit "post".

[mamadrama]

Keith had the amazing ability to talk and talk without saying a single thing.

I'm loving this series. It combines two of my biggest interests: cults and pyramid schemes.

[PotterOtherP]

Allison seemed to know what was expected of her during that conversation, like they were on stage performing a scene. There was a camera and a live audience watching her.

Groups are just the worst. If I may quote Bill Burr: "Who joins a group? What kind of a fuckin' loser..."

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Cheezwiz said:

Really interesting that they left out the info that Catherine Oxenberg was the one who had joined the cult and then introduced her daughter to it. Kind of an important piece of info to omit, no?

I didn't know that! But it shouldn't surprise me because this doc seems hellbent on keeping its main characters shown in the most flattering light possible. It also supports my theory that these interviews that seem like they're happening in real time were all reenactments. 

I really do like the subject matter of this series -- just not the way the material is being presented. 

[blixie]

Quote

Now I don't think Jesus was holding midnight volleyball sessions,

Nor was he charging you 5K for a three day weekend at the Holiday Inn. Sorry I think the worlds major religions are not cults in the modern parlance, cults are largely about the isolation and the bubbling and most of all that the texts are at a fee. Even Scientology starts with BUYING the paperback, paying for auditing and this is the same. You can walk into any Catholic Church in America sit down and read the fucking bible for free, Yes donating money is encouraged even expected but not required. You can not engage with ESP and Scientology without paying out the ass one way (out of you actual bank account)  or the other (or work including sex work). Cults create barriers, religion wants everybody even those people who don't want IT. I'm not arguing even that it's better it's just very different to my mind.

 

Quote

Really interesting that they left out the info that Catherine Oxenberg was the one who had joined the cult and then introduced her daughter to it. 

I think that's overstating a bunch. Oxenberg attended I think a couple of seminars, and took India to one, because heh India was already in funk and wanted direction in her life, tho she was 19 like giver her a minute Amanda Carrington. The line in the cult sand was going to Albany and it doesn't sound like she ever went there. I am not certain but it's possible she was friendly with the Bronfmans they were corporate royalty in London and she was literal royalty in London and so when she knew they were involved she gave it a try. Speaking of I find it weird they've been let off the hook in the documentary so far. The Saltzmans, Allie Mack, and even Nicki Cline have been repeated over and over, but the Bronfmans were a huge part of how successful the cult was, propping Keith up from the start. I guess that's why there are nine episodes they'll get to them soon enough.

 

[fountain]

I think Nxivm thinks it is making a better world the same way all these groups do: 1) by controlling capital so they can make sure it used “morally/ethically” 2) have the “best” people so when there is an apocalypse or aliens come or the government falls, etc. They are in a position to take over and rule with the most “ethical/moral/best”. It is a self-serving good, do for others as long as I get more for me. Not much different than large corporate greed but somehow a more admirable greed.

Really, how much have most religious organizations done to save the world these days? I am sure some do some good things but at least in my city no big churches are out feeding the poor or anything. If there is missionary work it is always in other countries but really that kind of work is a sales drive to spread the religion not cure malaria.

Sarah gets fame out of this. She shows her brand to everyone to keep it front of mind. With her book and publicity she is the “face” of the DOS victim. Without Nxivm she was a D list actress that no one knew.

ETA: most mainstream religious organizations are very wealthy. For an institution that is supposed to be for everyone and help everyone why are they as rich as the CEOs people complain about? Why are people starving when their church sits on billions that accrued from donations and investment gains? They also get to build extreme wealth tax free and no one seems to complain.

Edited September 15, 2020 by fountain

[Cheezwiz]

6 hours ago, PotterOtherP said:

Groups are just the worst. If I may quote Bill Burr: "Who joins a group? What kind of a fuckin' loser..."

I believe George Carlin also said something similar while he was alive.

[LeGrandElephant]

I hate how non-transparent this doc is with what’s a re-enactment and what isn’t. They should have text displayed on each scene clarifying that. Eg “Keith’s actual voice from recorded call, footage is reenactment with an actress” or whatever. The lack of info on that makes it harder to trust them them. 

[Cheezwiz]

Really interesting link to an article that Forbes magazine did on Keith Raniere way back in 2003. It exposes some of his past, and his past activities will not come as a surprise to anyone who's watched the documentary so far. I suppose reading this could be considered a bit of a spoiler, so it might be worthwhile to bookmark until later after the whole series has aired:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/willyakowicz/2019/05/15/keith-raniere-the-leader-of-the-nxivm-sex-cult/#4f524a5735a9

[Maysie]

We watched episode four last night. Although we're invested and will see the series through, we thought this episode kind of dragged. But there were a few takeaways:

I rolled my eyes when Bonnie told Catherine of course they want India, because India's beautiful, talented, successful, etc. Yeah, I think they want people who are "successful" so they can mine their funds, but I don't think they want people who are successful in terms of self esteem and confidence. Seems to me they find people who are unsure/unhappy/lacking confidence so they can suck them in (which sounded like India). However, I give Bonnie a bit of a pass on this because I imagine the success criteria makes her feel okay about getting caught up in something that's such an obvious scheme. I think the fact that she had some success on her own and some sense of worth is what actually led her to be able to make the break as cleanly as she did.

Related to all of the "successful" people this group has recruited, maybe it's my age showing (many of these famous people are unfamiliar to me), but it seems to me that at best, these high level famous people are kind of B-list stars. It's bitchy, I know, but it makes it seem even more like a low grade Scientology thing to me.

Why all the focus on India? Is it because she's peripherally famous? Did it make for an easy reenactment? I know she's basically wasting away and in physical and emotional distress, but spending so much time on her and Catherine became a bit boring. At one point my husband said "she doesn't seem all that upset about her daughter, does she?" I had to agree - Catherine didn't seem very emotional or engaged for most of the show.

10 hours ago, Cheezwiz said:

I don't like Sarah. I have no clue why she's so eager to show off her brand - just bizarre. I think she's furiously backpedaling with this documentary hoping to rehabilitate her image or something. I feel kinda bad for Nippy, as he seems fairly straightforward and honest. I don't think she is.

The more I see of Sarah the less I like her. I tried to be charitable and write off her need to show off the brand as some sort of PTSD, but showing the brand to the mother of someone who is likely going to get her own brand seemed grossly insensitive and selfish to me. I moved over to active dislike of Sarah when she decided to make the "sacrifice" of letting Frank have her name as a source. That's when the rubber meets the road, in my opinion; if you're really committed to making it right - trying to help the people you sucked into a bullshit, predatory cult (probably at least hundreds over the years) - it seems to me that putting your name out there to help that along is the least you can do. Fuck you Sarah. I would be interested to see if she and Nippy are still together in five years.

And fuck Mark, too, while I'm at it. He seemed offended when Catherine told him about contacting Frank - almost like there was someone else encroaching on his territory. I understand Frank is a bit sketchy from my googling (tax evasion, I guess), but it sounded like he was taking on the organization before Mark and Sarah got out. Unless he's doing something really awful, why wouldn't you try to work together? Honestly, Mark and Sarah seem like a better match to me, because they seem much more self-serving than Bonnie and Nippy.

Jane Jane Jane . . . I was astonished at how easily and willingly she went along with the master/slave/collateral thing. I wonder how old she is and what her background is. Critical thinking is not her strong point.

I've felt since the second or third episode that Allison Mack comes across as quite disingenuous, and I doubt her sincerity when she's engaging with anyone (a term in my favorite book comes to mind with her: "made for television"). Come to think of it, I doubt Mark and Sarah's sincerity as well; I wonder if this is part of moving up in the organization - being able to bullshit your way through just about anything.

I guess all the word salad really paid off for Keith et al in that they were able to do something that on the face of it is ridiculous: they took a group that is supposed to be about female empowerment and literally enslaved its participants (for life!). Never underestimate the power of doublespeak when you're dealing with people who aren't all that bright.

I hope in the future we'll get some episodes devoted to the finances and actual organizational structure, as well as how this whole setup evolved - was it always meant to be the pyramid scheme it seems to be? Was Keith always on the prowl for young women to bed? What is his deal anyway - what exactly are his qualifications and accomplishments and how was he able to convince people that he's the highest IQ individual, blah blah blah? That's the documentary I want to see. I don't want to see Sarah and Mark on a crusade to salvage their reputations and turn all this into yet another profitable career for them.

[Cheezwiz]

6 minutes ago, Maysie said:

I hope in the future we'll get some episodes devoted to the finances and actual organizational structure, as well as how this whole setup evolved - was it always meant to be the pyramid scheme it seems to be? Was Keith always on the prowl for young women to bed? What is his deal anyway - what exactly are his qualifications and accomplishments and how was he able to convince people that he's the highest IQ individual, blah blah blah? That's the documentary I want to see. I don't want to see Sarah and Mark on a crusade to salvage their reputations and turn all this into yet another profitable career for them.

Yes to all of the above. I really hope the documentary addresses some of the things I've been able to dig up with just cursory browsing on the web. At the moment, it seems like a way for some of the more self-serving former members to burnish their images and make more $$$.

Still very curious about the Bronfmans who bankrolled the whole thing (their father apparently recognized it as a scam from the beginning), and Nancy Salzman and her daughter. Salzman behaved like a true believer when she formed her business partnership with Raniere. Did Salzman actually believe the word salad he was selling? Or were they scheming together to bilk people from the get-go? Did anyone research their backgrounds before signing up?

As others have noted above, this whole organization seems to be filled with well-to-do white people completely devoid of critical thinking skills.

[Pop Tart]

47 minutes ago, Maysie said:

I hope in the future we'll get some episodes devoted to the finances and actual organizational structure, as well as how this whole setup evolved - was it always meant to be the pyramid scheme it seems to be? Was Keith always on the prowl for young women to bed? What is his deal anyway - what exactly are his qualifications and accomplishments and how was he able to convince people that he's the highest IQ individual, blah blah blah? That's the documentary I want to see. I don't want to see Sarah and Mark on a crusade to salvage their reputations and turn all this into yet another profitable career for them.

He's been accused in the past of having sex with underage girls (one only 12 at the time) so yes he was on the prowl for young women. And this fact makes me think his only having sex with them after they'd lost all the weight (at least that was the case with "Jane") has more to do with his need for them to look like pre-pubescent girls in order to be attracted to them. They're even starving themselves to the point that they stop having their periods....

https://www.syracuse.com/state/2018/04/nxivm_keith_raniere_ny_cult_rape.html

I want to give Sarah some grace and think that she just got caught up in being good at this thing. She was an expert recruiter in what she thought was an executive success program. Do I think she should have maybe got an inkling about the pyramid scheme of it all at the least? Yes. But she lived in and with it for years. She was brought into the group by a friend she trusted, Mark. She thought, at least in the beginning, that the organization was meant to do good. So I haven't written her off yet. When she got out, she got out. And from what we've been shown she tried to tell as many people as possible that things were very wrong.

Mark? I think he was just content. He was getting all the ego strokes he needed without any of the pressure, so it seems, that the women faced. He in fact didn't even seem to do any of the recruitment work, though he opened the Vancouver Center with Sarah. It seems his only job was to film Keith, so of course he didn't see any issues with the group. Totally a 'go along to get along' kind of guy.

 

Edited September 15, 2020 by Pop Tart

[sistermagpie]

31 minutes ago, Maysie said:

Honestly, Mark and Sarah seem like a better match to me, because they seem much more self-serving than Bonnie and Nippy.

That's probably why they're with the other two instead--they both realized they couldn't be someone just like themselves. The found people who seemed to a bit more natural as caregivers.

3 minutes ago, Pop Tart said:

Mark? I think he was just content. He was getting all the ego strokes he needed without any of the pressure, so it seems, that the women faced. He in fact didn't even seem to do any of the recruitment work, though he opened the Vancouver Center with Sarah. It seems his only job was to film Keith, so of course he didn't see any issues with the group. Totally a 'go along to get along' kind of guy.

Yeah, I do at least give Sarah the credit of being the person who said that they got these people in, they had to get them out. I think the scene where she showed her brand was staged and that's why she looked weirdly eager to do it and barely waiting to find out if Catherine wanted to see it first. She's a better salesperson than actress.

[Proclone]

I understand why a lot of people may not get how anyone could get involved with something like this, but I kind of see a certain amount of blaming of the people involved going on here that I don't think is super fair...Maybe it's because I can sympathize with how people get sucked into things like this. 

I've never been a part of a cult, but honestly I fully admit that's more because I was lucky to not have encountered one when I was in my late teens or early twenties (and I do understand that many of these people are much older than that, but I can still sympathize).  I remember seeing ads for Dianetics when I was a kid and if my mother hadn't forbade me from reading it, I might have wound up sucked into something like Scientology.  I remember always feeling like something was missing for me and I went through *a lot* of searching trying to find it.  I got involved with new age-y religions (which thankfully in my case were benign), I read self-help books.  I even went through, what I jokingly refer to now, as my uber religious phase, where I got very involved in Catholicism (I was raised Catholic, but only really nominally so). We're talking not eating meat on Fridays, fasting, going to confession weekly, volunteering a lot at Church, including donating money and even at one point helping to teach Confirmation classes for adults. Sound kind of familiar?  We're talking about it was the to the point, I would feel super guilty for missing Mass, regardless of the reason.  Even for valid reasons, like illness.  Thankfully this also wound up being a fairly benign thing, but if it had been a nefarious cult rather than a more mainstream religion, I could have totally seen myself getting sucked way down a rabbit hole.

Do I think certain personalities and people with certain issues are more likely to get involved in cults, yes.  Do I fully acknowledge I have one of those personalities, yes.  Am I inherently a stupid person, no I don't think I am.  I'm not even sure if I'd describe myself a gullible.  I have some OCD tendencies and things with ritual hold...I'm not sure appeal is the correct word, but it's all I got.  I will also obsess and perseverate on things, to a super unhealthy level (the example of missing Mass).  Put me in setting that reinforces that and...well no good comes from it.  I was also dealing with a ton of self-loathing which in hindsight was due to internalized homophobia, when I was younger.  And I was desperate to find a way not feel like that anymore.  If I had taken a course and even for a little while felt like it made me feel better about myself, you bet I would have dove in head first.  I half wonder if things like that send a lot of people into the arms of things like Scientology...I mean there seem to be more than a few closeted guys involved.  I also think the culture of Hollywood, plays a part in why celebrities often get mixed up in things like this.  You're job already involves taking direction from a (usually) man who quite often in a egomaniac.  And you're already quite often asked to do uncomfortable things.  Actors may already be primed to accept stuff a lot of stuff other people wouldn't.

Anyway, like I said, I don't blame anyone for not getting how people get involved in stuff like this, I just wanted to give a little perspective from what could have easily been the other side.

Edited September 15, 2020 by Proclone

[sistermagpie]

11 minutes ago, Proclone said:

I understand why a lot of people may not get how anyone could get involved with something like this, but I kind of see a certain amount of blaming of the people involved going on here that I don't think is super fair...Maybe it's because I can sympathize with how people get sucked into things like this. 

I've never been a part of a cult, but honestly I fully admit that's more because I was lucky to not have encountered one when I was in my late teens or early twenties (and I do understand that many of these people are much older than that, but I can still sympathize).  I remember seeing ads for Dianetics when I was a kid and if my mother hadn't forbade me from reading it, I might have wound up sucked into something like Scientology.  I remember always feeling like something was missing for me and I went through *a lot* of searching trying to find it.  I got involved with new age-y religions (which thankfully in my case were benign), I read self-help books.  I even went through, what I jokingly refer to now, as my uber religious phase, where I got very involved in Catholicism (I was raised Catholic, but only really nominally so). We're talking not eating meat on Fridays, fasting, going to confession weekly, volunteering a lot at Church, including donating money and even at one point helping to teach Confirmation classes for adults. Sound kind of familiar?  We're talking about it was the to the point, I would feel super guilty for missing Mass, regardless of the reason.  Even for valid reasons, like illness.  Thankfully this also wound up being a fairly benign thing, but if it had been a nefarious cult rather than a more mainstream religion, I could have totally could have seen myself getting sucked way down a rabbit hole.

Do I think certain personalities and people with certain issues are more likely to get involved in cults, yes.  Do I fully acknowledge I have one of those personalities, yes.  Am I inherently a stupid person, no I don't think I am.  I'm not even sure if I'd describe myself a gullible.  I have some OCD tendencies and things with ritual hold...I'm not sure appeal is the correct word, but it's all I got.  I will also obsess and perseverate on things, to a super unhealthy level (the example of missing Mass).  Put me in setting that reinforces that and...well no good comes from it.  I was also dealing with a ton of self-loathing which in hindsight was due to internalized homophobia, when I was younger.  And I was desperate to find a way not feel like that anymore.  If I had taken a course and even for a little while felt like it made me feel better about myself, you bet I would have dove in head first.  I half wonder if things like that send a lot of people into the arms of things like Scientology...I mean there seem to be more than a few closeted guys involved.  I also think the culture of Hollywood, plays a part in why celebrities often get mixed up in things like this.  You're job already involves taking direction from a (usually) man who quite often in a egomaniac.  And you're already quite often asked to do uncomfortable things.  Actors may already be primed to accept stuff a lot of other people wouldn't.

Anyway, like I said, I don't blame anyone for not getting how people get involved in stuff like this, I just wanted to give a little perspective from what could have easily been the other side.

Steven Hassan is an author who writes a lot about cults--he himself was in the Moonies for years so he's very good at describing exactly how it feels to be sucked into one. I think one of the things he points out is that different people can be susceptible to them at different times in their life. As you describe here, there was a time when you were looking for something that would have made you vulnerable. He was in college at the time and his girlfriend had just broken up with him. I actually thought of him when Mark talked about realizing that Keith was lying about something because Steven had a similar moment with Moon where he heard him saying something he knew was exactly the opposite of what he always told the cult. I believe he works a lot with getting people out of cults too--one of the things he says is that just getting the person away from the cult for a little while can be really helpful because they live in a bubble where no other information is allowed to get in there.

Anyway, it's because of things like this that even though I've never been in a cult I never want to say I couldn't be sucked into one--even when, as I said above, I can't imagine myself being bullied into answering texts right away or not getting any sleep. (Every time they showed one of those texts I muttered "fuck you" to the screen.) I feel like saying it could never be me would just doom myself to falling into one to punish me for my hubris or something. LOL. Next thing you know I'm finding girls for some dork in a sweatband, playing volleyball at 4AM and asking permission to eat a Pop Tart. Yipes.

[izabella]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

being bullied into answering texts right away or not getting any sleep

That's where the corporate examples work for me and help me understand getting sucked in.  There have been plenty of times where I have felt I needed to be available and to answer texts or emails from my boss right away, no matter the time, and losing lots of sleep preparing for presentations, meetings, or waiting for flights in some godforsaken airport terminal during a storm.  I used to travel for work and felt lucky I only traveled within the US because they were an international company, which means I could have been losing all kinds of sleep and huge chunks of my life to business travel.  I've also been to lots of "team building" type retreats and learned all the acronyms and double-speak, so get the whole group-think experience.

The main difference, though, is I was getting paid, and I never believed I was doing anything other than working my job so I could get paid, plus bonus.

[TVbitch]

This documentary is not nearly as good as Leah Remini's Scientology series which really lays shit bare for you in detail, including the dollar figures involved. And the interviews are gut-wrenchingly real, versus these reinactments. But I am still riveted!  General Hospital did a storyline based on NXIVM last year so it is also interesting to me from that perspective.

I went to a couple classes given by a group called Omega back in my 30's. I was rather open spiritually and had some pretty woo woo friends. Anyway, in the Omega class the manipulation of everyone's energy was amazing. They were yelling at us one minute and had people bawling into each others arms the next minute. I found it fascinating. My vigilance was fully operating and had moved me to a place of detached observation, but they really got most of the people worked up and excited. I think for a lot of people, just being in a room and connecting with other humans on a deeper level can be extremely intense and energizing. It's not often one get to express themself on that kind of an intimate level. You are feeling heard and connected and accepted, and it can really be a buzz and make you want more. ...which is the point! Cuz then they want you to sign up for more classes! RIGHT NOW!!!

I wasn't parting with any money, and I did not care for some of the more manipulative things they were doing, so I peaced out. But I can see how people get sucked in. 

[Proclone]

On 9/14/2020 at 3:39 AM, Cheezwiz said:

 

I don't know if the documentary will address it (I sure hope so, 'cause it's 9 episodes LONG), but I want to know the REAL backgrounds of Keith and Nancy Salzman. What was the nature of their relationship? How did they meet, and start these BS training seminars? Did it start out organically, or did they cook up a masterplan to bilk people from the get-go? Clearly Keith lied about his background, so who is he really? I'm just not seeing what others found so compelling about him, and I'd like the portrait he presented to recruits to be picked apart systematically.

 

Keith got in trouble for running another MLM before NXIVM that was shut down for being a pyramid scheme.  The elder Salzman was certainly aware of this and I think met him very shortly after he had to pay pretty a big fine.  She was also a psych nurse, and a hypnotist, so I think it's fairly safe to say that she was perfectly aware that Keith is a con-man.  I'm not sure if she thought it was going to turn into a sex cult, but I'm pretty sure she was in on the plan to create another pyramid scheme.  Also from what I've read she met Keith through one of his (then) girlfriends (not the one that passed away).

 

On 9/14/2020 at 10:30 AM, luckyroll3 said:

 

Speaking of Allison, the part where they meet for the first time is so damn cringey. I had to rewind it a few times because I was having difficulty understanding what Keith was getting at.  "Art is for people who can't do"? What a load of bullshit! And the way he was looking at Allison....how did her creep-dar not immediately go off. She clearly liked it though, and added her own cringiness with her popped cherry comment. Ugh!

As a random side note, I do wonder what time that meeting happened?  We know from Mark and Sarah that volleyball started rather late in the evening and that Keith would show up even later.  I can see how all that BS seems much more profound when you're sleep deprived and maybe jet lagged (I was under the impression Mack had just come from Vancouver).  I think that's half the reason he did it.  He'd have people work all day and then tire themselves out playing a stupid game for hours before he'd show up to pontificate BS.  Everyone would be exhausted and sweaty and suddenly the nerdy guy in the sweatbands seems a lot more appealing.   From how easily she lapsed into a crying jag, I feel like she was already primed in some way (sleep deprivation and/or jet lag) to be emotional.  I know I'll cry over the stupidest things when I'm really tired.

I honestly don't know what to feel about Mack in general.  I haven't since I heard about this cult at the start.  Was she just one more person Keith manipulated, or is she just as evil as he is? Somewhere in the middle, maybe? Where he manipulated her into giving into some really dark parts of herself.  I'm also curious about the younger Salzman.  Did she drink the cool-aid or was she just as aware as her mother of what was going on?  On the one hand I want to think these women are victims too, like Bonnie, Jane and India.  But on the other hand, Mack brought other women to her house and branded them...with a version of her initials.  I'm not sure there's any level of brainwashing that absolves you of that.

[luckyroll3]

16 hours ago, Maysie said:

Why all the focus on India? Is it because she's peripherally famous? Did it make for an easy reenactment? I know she's basically wasting away and in physical and emotional distress, but spending so much time on her and Catherine became a bit boring. At one point my husband said "she doesn't seem all that upset about her daughter, does she?" I had to agree - Catherine didn't seem very emotional or engaged for most of the show.

I'm not sure, but I did learn on Monday that Lifetime already did a NXIVM movie that was released last fall (starring Perter Facinelli!) that was based on Catherine's journey to free India.  

[DanaK]

18 hours ago, Maysie said:

Why all the focus on India? Is it because she's peripherally famous? Did it make for an easy reenactment? I know she's basically wasting away and in physical and emotional distress, but spending so much time on her and Catherine became a bit boring. At one point my husband said "she doesn't seem all that upset about her daughter, does she?" I had to agree - Catherine didn't seem very emotional or engaged for most of the show.

Wasn’t Catherine the one who went to the New York Times which did the expose that blew the cult’s dirty stuff wide open? At the very least, I think she went public about it to try to get her daughter out

I kind of felt she was feeling very emotional about her daughter’s plight but was just managing to keep it together

[blixie]

Yes Catherine was one of the first people outside the cult with any real clout who was super vocal about it, before the sex cult aspect even came to her knowledge I think?

I think Allison Mack was for sure manipulated/victim, but also relative to the rest of the participants had a lot of power because Keith was obviously into her from the get, I think she deserved to be held accountable, but not at the same level as the Saltzmans/Bronfmans/Raniere.

I think that for sure Sarah is to some degree annoyed not so much that Keith didn't want to sleep with her, but that sleeping with him allowed all these women who hadn't "worked' as hard to be brought in closer to "achieve" more within ESP (since getting more time with Keith's wisdom was the peak achievement). Like Jane didn't have to spend thousands of dollars to meet Keith she just just had to become his great grand slave. And can get why she resents that they really really were only passing her up the line not to get her deeper into the spiritual engagement with Vanguard, but to bring him more hot Vancouver actress chicks to bang. I actually really like Sarah and think she is pretty bravely reconciling with her own narcissism and how it fed a bunch of people to a monster. Same with Mark his obliviousness and narcissism blinded him to what was happening with his own wife and other women in the cult.

 

Quote

The main difference, though, is I was getting paid, and I never believed I was doing anything other than working my job so I could get paid, plus bonus.

Well since ESP was an MLM they too were getting paid, but of course at the expense of those below them getting sucked in to the same rat race.

[geekgirl921]

On 9/8/2020 at 11:09 AM, blixie said:

Almost certainly they are going after Keith in the show, but they want to destroy him piece by piece.
 

Yeah I was super biased against Mark from the start because his movie, What the Bleep Do We Know is basically all about this same kind of dumb new age-y shit and pretty sure it included anti-vax type stuff. It was Goop before Goop Gooped. So his kind of commitment to all this was very unsurprising, though I do think he's a genuine seeker he has no real sense of like science, he wants to treat all claims of health/spiritual/psychological healing as equal. NOPE. I did have to keep saying out loud every time someone was going off about how great it was with either "until they told me to fuck Keith" I never saw it, because "they never told me to fuck Keith". I still really appreciate that Bonnie saw all of the over working and weight management as clear blazing red flags of cult control and bugged out within a couple of years, and she had fallen in love with this guy who was gaga about it so that is also head clouder so that's why it even took her that long.

Yes, I think that's a big reason that Mark fell so hard for it. His movie was and him are very new age-y and he is very susceptible to woo! 

[geekgirl921]

On 9/10/2020 at 11:29 AM, EdnasEdibles said:

I absolutely think that was the case with Sarah. She was not really a successful actress. The clip of that vampire show is cringey. This allowed her to make money and perform and be on stage and be famous in a small circle. There's even that scene of Keith directing her and being like "No, you need to be bigger and say 'GOOD MORNING!'" and it was probably like getting notes from a director. I think she loved that aspect of it. 

In the podcast she talked about how she'd convince people to join and be like "It's only $2,000!" and if they were like "But I don't have that" she'd then come back with "But if you needed surgery and that surgery was $2,000, wouldn't you be able to find that money? Talk to the friends who you think would help you with that. Sell your car. Do what you have to do because you're creating your future!" -- really icky stuff like that and she didn't see any problem with that. So, knowing stuff like that is keeping me from feeling really sorry for her. I know that people change and they learn more but Bonnie is kind of my hero in this. It took Bonnie very little time to be like "The hell? This is messed up!" and I applaud her for that. 

I do laugh at the fact that Allison Mack is the Tom Cruise of this cult. Like  . . . her? That's as big as you could get? Her? I can't help but think that the Smallville set must have been a terrible place when she and Kristen joined up. Poor Tom Welling. The stories he could tell.

 

 

It's kind of interesting to me, I have actually seen Sarah in a couple of small parts in tv movies. I think I notice her more because of this documentary.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

On 9/15/2020 at 11:43 AM, Maysie said:

Why all the focus on India? Is it because she's peripherally famous? Did it make for an easy reenactment? I know she's basically wasting away and in physical and emotional distress, but spending so much time on her and Catherine became a bit boring.

I think it's partly because there were only so many people willing to go on camera and Catherine was one of them. Because of her cooperation, they had more background for India's story (childhood pictures, Catherine looking through her stuff) in addition to whatever footage Mark had from Albany/NXIVM.

[kitmerlot1213]

Man, but after seeing the first meeting between Allison Mack and Raniere. I'm stunned at how easily he manipulated her with his word salad, "art is bogus and self-condemning" --he knew he had her hooked when she started crying and agreeing with him.  I felt embarrassed for her and I'm actually saddened at how needy she was and in 2006 she would have been about 23 or 24 years old--never let it be said that KR isn't an expert conman.

Re: the women who because slaves/member of DOS, there is no way they had actual jobs out of the cult--if you worked in an office, medical profession or food service, you wouldn't have time to constantly answer random texts from your master or ask permission to eat etc.  The cult must have been their entire life--DAMN!

Edited September 17, 2020 by kitmerlot1213

[MicheleinPhilly]

I have no idea who Alison Mack is outside of this documentary - I've literally never heard of her - but her initial meeting with Keith was laughable. Literally. We were cackling the entire time. Some random, sweaty, serial killer looking creeper gets up in your face and starts spouting nonsense about art and you're moved to tears??? Good grief. 

I'm working on being less judgmental of these folks because I recognize that most if not all of them were terribly lonely and feeling lost but I fail to see an ounce of charisma in Keith. That and the corporate B.S./Chicken Soup for the Soul level "philosophizing" makes it very difficult for me to fathom how this group existed as long as it did. As others have pointed out, it's a B-level (more like D-level) rip-off of Scientology. At least with Scientology they have a "goal" or "purpose" - clearing the planet (*insert eye roll emoji). What is this group's purpose? 

 

[Maysie]

4 hours ago, MicheleinPhilly said:

I'm working on being less judgmental of these folks because I recognize that most if not all of them were terribly lonely and feeling lost but I fail to see an ounce of charisma in Keith. That and the corporate B.S./Chicken Soup for the Soul level "philosophizing" makes it very difficult for me to fathom how this group existed as long as it did. As others have pointed out, it's a B-level (more like D-level) rip-off of Scientology. At least with Scientology they have a "goal" or "purpose" - clearing the planet (*insert eye roll emoji). What is this group's purpose? 

I'm trying to save most of my disdain for Keith and Nancy because you're right - so many of these people are victims. I have no way to know what they experienced in their lives until they found NXIVM; I can only imagine what it's like to feel so lost or empty that when presented with some pretty basic common sense ideas, you believe that what you're hearing is groundbreaking.

However...there is a line and some of the people who got caught up in the organization crossed that line (such as Allison and Lauren). It's creepy and a little pathetic to see the video of Allison's first meeting with Keith, but she went way beyond staying engaged and active like someone who was sucked into the organization (the Janes, Sarahs, etc). She actively solicited other vulnerable young women to be slaves and actually branded them. That crosses a line for me because it goes against the premise of right and wrong, and most functioning people have a basic understanding of the difference. And don't even get me started on how these groups actually profess to empower the people they're actively subjugating.

There are so many contradictions in this whole mess and I wonder if Keith, Nancy and the other players were actively aware of them and had their playbook for how to overcome them. It makes me question whether that was part of the game/allure for him - to be so blatant in these conflicting things (e.g., empowering women to enslave them) but have so much power that people were willing to deny what was really right in front of them.

In the next episodes, I hope we see less about these front and center personalities that we've been seeing so far (Mark, Bonnie, Sarah, Nippy and India) and start to learn more about the organization. Yes, they are victims, and the stories need telling, but I am more interested in finding out how Keith came to be, where Nancy fits in, how the organization was structured and funded, etc. After a while the stories begin to sound the same. I want to know who Keith and Nancy are and what their motivation is? And how does Nancy live with involving her own daughter so deeply in this mess?

[MicheleinPhilly]

12 minutes ago, Maysie said:

However...there is a line and some of the people who got caught up in the organization crossed that line (such as Allison and Lauren). It's creepy and a little pathetic to see the video of Allison's first meeting with Keith, but she went way beyond staying engaged and active like someone who was sucked into the organization (the Janes, Sarahs, etc). She actively solicited other vulnerable young women to be slaves and actually branded them. That crosses a line for me because it goes against the premise of right and wrong, and most functioning people have a basic understanding of the difference. And don't even get me started on how these groups actually profess to empower the people they're actively subjugating.

 

Oh we're 100% in agreement on that. I was thinking of the Janes and Bonnies (I have a bit less sympathy for Sarah because something about her just rubs me the wrong way), not the "higher-ups" that actively recruited people and then made them their "slaves." They can all go to jail as far as I'm concerned. 

[Maysie]

1 hour ago, MicheleinPhilly said:

Oh we're 100% in agreement on that. I was thinking of the Janes and Bonnies (I have a bit less sympathy for Sarah because something about her just rubs me the wrong way), not the "higher-ups" that actively recruited people and then made them their "slaves." They can all go to jail as far as I'm concerned. 

As an old friend would say, I think we're in "violent agreement."  I would actually like to understand a bit more about Allison's journey in all of this, because the more I think about it, and then read additional thoughts and takes on it, such as the post below, I end up with more questions.

7 hours ago, kitmerlot1213 said:

Man, but after seeing the first meeting between Allison Mack and Raniere. I'm stunned at how easily he manipulated her with his word salad, "art is bogus and self-condemning" --he knew he had her hooked when she started crying and agreeing with him.  I felt embarrassed for her and I'm actually saddened at how needy she was and in 2006 she would have been about 23 or 24 years old--never let it be said that KR isn't an expert conman.

What I've learned with Sarah, Mark, Bonnie, Jane and India is that they all had some voids in their lives that NXIVM filled - it gave them confidence, purpose and family, and in the case of at least Sarah, a damn good livelihood. But they didn't cross that line into straight up abuse and Allison made that leap. So what was it about her (and Lauren and whoever else) that Keith saw and developed to turn her from a vulnerable young woman into essentially a predator/pimp? What didn't the others have - especially Sarah - that he was less confident in them? Was there an age limit? A physical type? I kind of feel like Bonnie wouldn't have stuck around for any of that, and it seems like he left men out of the scheme (though I guess we'll find out as we go on). I wonder if women recruiting other women somehow made it seem less icky and that they could label it "female empowerment" because it was women recruiting other women? So many questions!

[Cheezwiz]

9 hours ago, Maysie said:

I wonder if women recruiting other women somehow made it seem less icky and that they could label it "female empowerment" because it was women recruiting other women? So many questions!

I think that's the key to how he got away with things for so long. Keith pretended to have no involvement - only tacit "approval". Women tend to trust other women, and most of these women were probably already 3/4 brainwashed to begin with. It also seems not all of the "masters" had knowledge of Keith's predatory behaviour either, so there was some compartmentalizing going on even within the DOS secret sorority.

Knowing what we know about the manipulation that was happening, I'm more and more impressed with Bonnie for trusting her instincts and bailing early on.

I'm interested in why some people crossed the line into predation and abuse, and why others were able to put the brakes on and get out.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

The other day, I saw that Teddi Mellencamp, daughter of John not a cougar Mellencamp has some kind of MLM (she calls it "accountability coaching") where people pay $600 to be told they can only eat 500 calories per day and have to do 1 hour of cardio per day. A former participant said, "You have to send photos of your weight and each meal and proof of your 60 minute cardio workout everyday. You cannot drink alcohol or you are immediately dropped from the program with no refund. I calculated the calories to be 400-500 per day. I would text my accountability coaches that I was starving and they would just tell me to drink more water.” It immediately reminded me of the DOS diet.

Edited September 18, 2020 by ElectricBoogaloo