S01.E17: A Narrow Escape

[Trini]

Batwoman encounters a new challenge when an old villain resurfaces, testing the heroics of Gotham's most stand-up citizens. Alice's limits are tested.

Paul Wesley directed the episode written by Daphne Miles.

Airdate: 4/26/2020

 

[mtlchick]

“Please Kate, I know you’re Batwoman and I will give reasons that I know why that make sense to me now.”

 

mary is the best.

[Jediknight]

Bruce killed Joker dead.  Holy crap, now that's a revelation.  Now, we gotta wait to see the reveal as to what set him off.

Mary came through with the best Hallway Talk ever.

[CletusMusashi]

Lot of things this week to like, but I do have to ask Alice one question:

That "getting stabbed deliberately in order to re-use the sewing thread" schtick... really? You have time to kill people, skin their faces, and apparently get rid of the bodies without anyone noticing, but you can't just grab some new thread while you're at it? It seems like the most elaborate part of that whole plan was actually the least necessary.

[quarks]

1. Batman killed Joker?

2. Mary remains the absolute best. Staying behind with her patients, giving Kate the needed pep talk (and how awesome is it that Kate defeated her little sister way back when). Not to mention her final scene with Luke and Kate.

3. Batman killed Joker??

4. I realize that part of the point of this episode was to reinforce that Arkham Asylum is not exactly the best run place, but surely someone should have noticed a new dead body or that one of their patients was no longer there?

5. Batman killed Joker???

6. Awwww, Alice daydreams of playing video games with Kate. A plan that might have gone just a leeeetttllleee better if you hadn't killed so many people, Alice.

7. Seriously, Batman killed Joker????

8. Sophie, that was all very heroic, but your boss has been a complete jerk to you. No need to stay by his side. Go be with better people.

9. Are we all absolutely positive that Batman killed Joker? 

10. Absolutely loved that Lucius Fox set up a lockdown system for Wayne Enterprises that could defeat a bomb. Maybe he was the person who really killed Joker. 

[thuganomics85]

The show certainly doesn't believe in wasting time, huh?  Mary now reveals to Kate that she knows about her secret identity and even gives her a nice pep talk to help get her out of her funk!  Yay, Mary!  She's the best!  Really hope this means she'll be getting more involved in the exploits now.  Already cracking up over her and Luke, and his hilariously bad attempts to try and keep the act going.

The Detonator really is some half-assed effort when it comes to villainous code names.  Although, I still hope for the day that they just throw their hands in the air and name someone who kills people with knives "Mr. Stabby McStab" or something.  But once it was revealed to be a copycat and was connected to the Crows, I figured it was the... well, only other Crow member who has lines other than Jacob and Sophie (oh, and Sophie's ex.  Where did he go off too?)  But it looks like Julia Pennyworth is also joining the squad, which should be fun.  And I thought I saw something last episode, but it really feels like something is brewing between Sophie and Julia, which might make things just a bit awkward, since they both were with Kate and all.

Glad Luke got some closure (baring another twist) about his dad.  Camrus Johnson did good work here.

Heh, I love that Alice being locked up allowed them to bring back some other familiar faces like Tommy Elliot and Magpie, but I'm completely unsurprised that she is already playing these fools like chumps.  Yeah, she'll be running the asylum in no time!  But she still yearns for Kate, and dreams of them bonding over Mortal Kombat.  Classic Alice!

So, Batman/Bruce in this universe, actually broke his "no kill" policy over the Joker, it seems.  Interesting.  To be fair, if anyone could pull that off, it would be The Joker.

[Lantern7]

Kate is over the murder! Okay, one probably can never truly escape murdering someone, and it sucks that we can't have images of Kevin Conroy zombie-walking towards Kate in the exoskeleton in a haunting manner. But she gets past it . . . and now Mary is in the loop! And Curtis got to be a badass!

Looks like Alice is taking to her therapy at Arkham. Seriously, has there been any version of that place where the people working there weren't complete sadists? "In this Gotham City, we don't have a retro thing going on like that other show. But this is Arkham, so twenty thousand volts should be enough to cure you, Alice!"

Batman killed Joker? Seems about right. I'm not saying it was the right thing, but at least we know why Bruce cut out. Is it weird to not want any sort of Joker in Batwoman? I mean, we just had Jerome & Jermiah over on Gotham, and Arthur Fleck in Joker. My fear is that we wind up with a "Batman Who Laughs" situation. Short story, that's basically a Batman that has been "Jokerized." There's a lot more, but I'll just suggest clicking the link.

ETA: Detonator: good concept, crap nickname. He must have been a fan of the old-school Doom Patrol . . . or at least their demise, what with the "sacrifice yourself or others" schtick.

Edited April 27, 2020 by Lantern7

[possibilities]

The patients carry knives? And Alice can't find thread?

I liked this episode a lot, though.

[UNOSEZ]

So is Mary to be the MVP every episode?...  Good all around.. Was happy to have the show back

[Lady Calypso]

This was an excellent episode to come back to. I felt like a lot happened and it was just exciting to watch.

Seeing Kate still struggle through killing someone was really good to see. Her having a panic attack in a few of her scenes was really strong. I love that she's being shown to struggle with having her first kill and that it's not an easy thing to just "get over". But I also love how she finally decided to move forward, with both Luke and Mary helping her through it.

Speaking of Mary, of course she's MVP of this episode. I love her coming clean to Kate about knowing her secret, and I LOVED her speech to Kate about Batwoman being needed. 

I also loved Luke in this episode. He was shown to be smart, and also a badass! Who knew? And Kate needed to talk him down from his ledge. And we also got some closure, and also more questions, about his father's death. Yay!

Plus, we got some...Jacob scenes, I guess. He's still being underutilized. But we also got Sophie/Julia and they're clearly setting up a romance there. Which, by the way, is a good thing. Sophie deserves some happiness and I did like the chemistry between the actresses. 

Also, we got the reveal that Batman killed Joker and that's why we'll never see Joker. 

On the Alice/Mouse front, they didn't get a whole lot to do...besides dream about playing video games with Kate, stab a doctor, wear his face, and taunt Tommy Elliot.  It looks like they're still planning their escape, and really, it should be easy now that Mouse has a way to get out of Arkham undetected. Just kill a guard, wear his face, and then walk out the front door! It seems to be THAT easy!

[Featherhat]

5 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

So is Mary to be the MVP every episode?...  Good all around.. Was happy to have the show back

Pretty much. Or at least to me. RS can chew scenery like a boss but Mary's always my MVP. Especially here. She told Kate she knows and adorably chided herself for not realising earlier, gave Kate a comforting yet very firm speech to get back out there, she refused to leave her patients who were too sick to move! And almost broke Luke at the end. 

Really good episode. I liked Kate exploring how she feels after her first official kill. Slid into cliché at times but I'm glad they showed it. I don't actually mind it when heroes kill, it's sometimes a lot more preferable than not making the hard choice and letting a bad guy go to kill others because you want your own hands clean but I'm glad there are emotional consequences as well. 

Luke continues to grow on me week by week "there is no Bat Team HR department" snerk. And his anger and pain in confronting Robles were really good. And swapping pep talks with Kate about the nature of heroism. And babbling futilely about Kate not being Batwoman at the end. 

I liked Julia more this time around and she and Sophie made a good B team with what little screen time they had. Now they're going to be working together. I was wondering if I was supposed to be picking up on attraction/UST hints or not. I hope not, that would be an incredibly soapy triangle. Even if it ended with Julia spelling it out to Kate that she's still in love with Sophie.

Alice and Mouse were good in their C plot escape/decision to be royalty in the asylum. Although that is a lot of trouble to go to get some thread. I did feel sorry for Alice being tortured at the beginning even with all she's done. I enjoyed the group therapy session and Tommy Elliot ranting about Bruce, and now he's connected to Lucius Fox's murder. Hmm. 

So Bruce killer the Joker? Ok. We got a version of his Ferryboat conundrum this ep musing in the nature of humanity and heroism. 

@quarks Has your brain reset and recovered a bit now or are you still trying to find out who really killed the Joker?

Edited April 27, 2020 by Featherhat

[quarks]

1 hour ago, Featherhat said:

 

 

@quarks Has your brain reset and recovered a bit now or are you still trying to find out who really killed the Joker?

I dunno. My brain barely managed to survive the hell that was the Arrow set design (and to answer the question before it's asked, yes, yes, I did notice that this episode used a couple of sets/locations from Arrow and Flash and yes, yes, I'm trying very hard not to think about that) and this revelation may have been Too Much. 

Fortunately I have a week or so to recover before I need to seek out treatment at Arkham Asylum. 

[Rushmoras]

Wait, what? The doctor, who shocks patients, still has a job? Thought that he got arrested. Also, too little Alice, me not like this episode, very boring I find, hard time to pay attention I had.

[Lantern7]

2 hours ago, Rushmoras said:

Wait, what? The doctor, who shocks patients, still has a job? Thought that he got arrested.

This is Arkham Asylum. When that gets into a story, all the old-timey stereotype psych bullshit comes into play . . . shock therapy, multiple personalities that aren’t like in real life, straitjackets, etc,

Edited April 27, 2020 by Lantern7

[Loandbehold]

3 hours ago, Rushmoras said:

Wait, what? The doctor, who shocks patients, still has a job? Thought that he got arrested.

He did. Was declared legally insane and sentenced to time at Arkham. Which had need for a doctor. It's the circle of life in Gotham.

[driver18]

So when Kate was staring at her Bat suit and hearing the voices of Alice and Mary in her head, I was thinking it's like Mary and Alice are the angel and devil on her each shoulder now that Mary knows and Kate *knows* that she knows. I really like that.

I wasn't thrilled with the casting of Ruby Rose as Kate Kane, but the second that I heard that Caroline Dries was doing this I was onboard. I was/am/will always be a huge Vampire Diaries fan, and Dries wrote some of my favorite episodes. And all but one or two of her episodes (literally) are in my top 50 of all TVD episodes. Her seasons as EP of that show are some of my favorite of the show's run as well. I think she's brilliant and so I knew I would love whatever she did with Batwoman and I was going to trust the casting.

She hasn't let me down.

[tennisgurl]

A lot happened in this episode, and it was a really good return for the show, but I am still stuck on Batman finally killing The Joker! I wonder what happened that finally got him to push him to finally do it? Did he kill this universes Jason Todd? Is that why he left Gotham, to figure himself out after he broke his code. I mean, I can hardly blame Bruce (if your going to break your code against killing, The Joker is an understandable person to break it for) for killing him, but as we see here, that can be a tough thing to deal with. 

I really liked the episode, and I am glad that they spent time on Kate dealing with killing someone, and how that ended up tying into the case of the week and Luke and his father. The whole issue of whether or not heroes should kill is one that many stories have dealt with before, and the Batman mythos in particular has often questioned the morality of killing criminals and if its ever appropriate, and what the consequences of killing or not killing can be. I liked how they dealt with it here, and that, as awful as the person she killed was, its still not a simple thing to take a life, especially out of anger and not self defense or something. I am glad that Luke and Mary managed to support her, and I love that what really brought her back was seeing Luke about to cross that line with the guy who killed his father, combined with what Mary said. I also thought the ending message was good, that just because Kate did something very morally questionable, that doesn't mean that she is irretrievably broken or a bad person or has to give up on being a hero, it just means that she has to learn from this, and try to move on. 

Mary is, as always, the best! Staying at her hospital with her patients, giving the wanna be Batwoman a firm but kind talk about running into dangerous situations, and, of course, finally telling Kate that she knows that she is Batwoman with an awesome speech about how much she has supported her over the years and looked up to her (awww Kate taught Mary how to drive) and how she has to just keep going. I hope that this means that Mary will be more involved with the Batwoman plots now and can join the team officially. 

Alice dreams of one day drinking and playing video games with Kate, which would probably be more plausible if Alice would stop killing people. It was fun to see some past bad guys, and it was kind of funny that Mouse actually seemed to be kind of interested in doing the therapy before Alice convinced him to go back to evil stuff! Alice will be running that place in about three days time, as is the way of Arkham. 

So I guess the bad guy saw The Dark Knight, huh? Yeah not surprising that the bad guy in the Crows is one of the only Crows that actually has had lines so far. So are we heading for a Sophie/Julia plot? I think its a good idea, I like Julia a lot and the actresses have chemistry, but its going to be pretty awkward when they both find out they have a history with Kate. 

Everything with Luke was really good, and its great to see him get more to do other than be comic relief and mission control, Camrus Johnson did really good work with this episode. Poor Luke, he was struggling so hard this week, I am glad that Kate was there before he crossed a line. He was really good with Kate too, reminding her over and over that he was there for her, and to give her a pep talk at the end. And his awkward floundering with Mary at the end was hilarious. 

[Rushmoras]

So, rewatched it again with fresh mind, so to speak. Actually mised a couple of important scenes yesterday (Mouse killing the doctor, Fox Jr. implying that Batman killed Joker),  but overall did not miss much. Still, can't say that I found the main plot of the episode compelling enough, I get the dejavu feeling that Jacob Kane is getting abducted quite freaquently in this show. Though, I liked the PTSD portrayal for Kate, but would have liked for it to be extended to a couple more eps (maybe until the final), till she comes to terms with it and not just this: "get over it". So, Lucious died in a extortion gone wrong scenario? Huh.

Edited April 28, 2020 by Rushmoras

[Twilight Man]

On 4/26/2020 at 10:01 PM, quarks said:

Absolutely loved that Lucius Fox set up a lockdown system for Wayne Enterprises that could defeat a bomb.

During the comic book story-line "Cataclysm",

(in which an earthquake rocked Gotham and its immediate after effects)

when the earthquake starts to shake Gotham and all of the skyscrapers,

including the Wayne Foundation, the co-workers inside the Wayne Foundation

start to panic.   Lucius calmly walks to the windows

and tells everyone loudly not to panic.

HE MADE SURE that, despite being on the East Coast

(I mentioned in a previous ep thread that it's in JERSEY),

all of the modern buildings

owned by Bruce Wayne were constructed to withstand earthquakes.

(And I thought Batman was "crazy prepared")

Edited April 29, 2020 by Twilight Man

[RobertDeSneero]

Mary wasn't completely clicking for me as a character until this episode because I never quite understood why Kate's opinion mattered so much to her.   I never perceived Kate as being close enough to Mary to want to teach her to drive.  Actually, I don't think I ever got the impression that Kate cared that much about Mary.  Not that she hated Mary, but it felt more like she tolerated Mary because their parents married.  This episode changed that perception for me.

I don't think the writers were quite sure what they wanted from Mary at the beginning.  She had all the makings of that scrappy, impetuous, and sometimes bratty younger character whose role is to be that sunshiny sidekick who humanizes an overly grim main hero.

[possibilities]

12 hours ago, Rushmoras said:

I get the dejavu feeling that Jacob Kane is getting abducted quite freaquently in this show.

He's the show's chronic damsel in distress.

[Trini]

I'm glad the "secret" is out between Mary and Kate. Mary and Luke are going to be fun together!

Aw, Alice still wants to have fun sister times with Kate despite everything. She really is crazy. But LOL at her ruling Arkham one episode after she got there!

Glad we got a more fleshing out of Luke, and Luke and Kate.

On 4/26/2020 at 9:02 PM, Jediknight said:

Bruce killed Joker dead.  Holy crap, now that's a revelation.  Now, we gotta wait to see the reveal as to what set him off.

I'll be the odd one out and say that I'm not entirely convinced that the Joker is dead and that it was Batman who killed him. If the show lasts long enough, there's a possibility they put a twist on that.

 

On 4/26/2020 at 10:22 PM, thuganomics85 said:

... (oh, and Sophie's ex.  Where did he go off too?)  But it looks like Julia Pennyworth is also joining the squad, which should be fun.  And I thought I saw something last episode, but it really feels like something is brewing between Sophie and Julia, which might make things just a bit awkward, since they both were with Kate and all. ....

That dude is no longer part of the triangle, so he's just gone. I'm not particularly impressed with Julia. And yeah both of Kate exes dating each other? Messy.

 

On 4/28/2020 at 11:08 PM, RobertDeSneero said:

Mary wasn't completely clicking for me as a character until this episode because I never quite understood why Kate's opinion mattered so much to her.   I never perceived Kate as being close enough to Mary to want to teach her to drive.  Actually, I don't think I ever got the impression that Kate cared that much about Mary.  Not that she hated Mary, but it felt more like she tolerated Mary because their parents married.  This episode changed that perception for me.

The show hasn't really invested much time into the Kate/Mary sister relationship; especially from Kate's side. It's a problem in the writing. Here they actually gave a tiny bit of history for them; but they should have been doing that this whole time.

[Rushmoras]

8 minutes ago, Trini said:

The show hasn't really invested much time into the Kate/Mary sister relationship; especially from Kate's side. It's a problem in the writing. Here they actually gave a tiny bit of history for them; but they should have been doing that this whole time.

I agree. I simply didn't buy anything that she said about Kate, because I, as a viewer, never even saw it. Hell, as a viewer, I only (until this episode) saw how Kate brushes Mary off (just like some annoying relative).

[immortalfrieza]

23 hours ago, Trini said:

I'll be the odd one out and say that I'm not entirely convinced that the Joker is dead and that it was Batman who killed him. If the show lasts long enough, there's a possibility they put a twist on that.

Even if Batman did try to kill Joker I highly doubt that it's a "choked the guy to death in a fit of rage" deal like Kate. I'd bet money Batman threw Joker over a cliff or something and just believed Joker was dead. Even if Batman did kill Joker deader than dead he comes back, he ALWAYS comes back.

Having said that, short of dying or getting thrown into an alternate dimension or something that sounds like the only other possible reason for Bruce to be gone.

[joanne3482]

On 4/30/2020 at 1:29 AM, Rushmoras said:

I agree. I simply didn't buy anything that she said about Kate, because I, as a viewer, never even saw it. Hell, as a viewer, I only (until this episode) saw how Kate brushes Mary off (just like some annoying relative).

My older sister was 10 years older than I am. I'm sure my memory of our times together are different than what hers would have been. I'm sure she brushed me off many times but when you have such hero-worship of an older sibling, you tend to forget the bad. Mary has shown that she still wants Kate's approval because she craves a real sibling relationship with her. Mary may remember Kate teaching her how to drive as this ultimate fun and daring thing, while Kate's view on it could have been, well I've got nothing going on tonight, let's take the car. So, to me, it is possible the truth is both. Mary idolizes Kate and remembers their youth together as one thing and Kate views her as an annoying gnat. 

[Rushmoras]

On 5/1/2020 at 8:44 AM, immortalfrieza said:

Having said that, short of dying or getting thrown into an alternate dimension or something that sounds like the only other possible reason for Bruce to be gone.

Actually, before the worlds merged, I remember Kara telling Kate something along the lines as: 'Huh? You guys also have Bruce Wayne?' So, maybe it was possible that somehow Bruce from Kate's world ended up in Kara's. But after the merge of universes.... who knows what happened to him.*

 

* Short from the fact that it's too costly to use Batman's licence in a show or even create a separate show, I guess (I mean, they're making a new Superman show; so it's not the licencing issue, it's money issue, perhaps).

[possibilities]

Until this episode, I thought Kate hardly even knew Mary, and that they must not have grown up together. I thought maybe one of them had been off at boarding school or something. I'm taking this as a retcon. I'll forgive it if they give us flashbacks, so we can see it. I like the IDEA of the two of them being close, but in a way it makes Kate's recent coldness to her even worse. Yeah, she had a secret, blah blah blah; that means her not trusting Mary would hurt Mary even more, and Kate didn't seen even slightly worried about that.

--

I'm pretty sure that ECT doesn't cause you to have beautiful lucid dreams or fantasies. I'm pretty sure it blacks you out and gives you headaches. Linking Alice's desire for nice times with Kate to her moments of being tortured is a weird kind of lie for the show to tell us. They could show her having those dreams when she's sleeping, or when her inhibitions are down from drugging, maybe. But to link it to ECT is just bizarrely bullshitty.

[immortalfrieza]

On 5/2/2020 at 1:24 AM, possibilities said:

I'm pretty sure that ECT doesn't cause you to have beautiful lucid dreams or fantasies. I'm pretty sure it blacks you out and gives you headaches. Linking Alice's desire for nice times with Kate to her moments of being tortured is a weird kind of lie for the show to tell us. They could show her having those dreams when she's sleeping, or when her inhibitions are down from drugging, maybe. But to link it to ECT is just bizarrely bullshitty.

Psychiatry in general has been portrayed in fiction as if we were 50-60 years back from where we are with it if not more, and that's if it was ever like that at all. Arkham Asylum in particular has been like something out of a mad scientist laboratory. Electroshock Therapy is actually completely harmless and not painful at all in this day and age, but in fiction it's cold blooded torture. I'm not surprised the doctor's way of making Alice sane involves shocking her repeatedly, and honestly I'm not sad the guy was killed and had his face stolen.

Edited May 3, 2020 by immortalfrieza

[bettername2come]

Batman killed the Joker?! Woohoo! He had it coming all along...So I'm assuming that's why Bruce left Gotham? Killed the Joker, doesn't feel worthy of his city, especially if something happened to Robin, Batgirl or Selina.

That hallucination at the beginning made me think we could believably have those two come to terms and become real sisters again. Honestly, if Kate hadn't put Alice in Gotham at the end of the last episode, they could very well be on the way to that relationship.

I've liked the greater focus on Luke the past couple episodes. It's good, it helps flesh out his character, and he's got nice arms. I loved his babbling breakdown when he found out Mary knew about Kate. More of this trio please? CW superhero shows work best with trios.

And Kate knows that Mary knows! Yay! I liked that moment where she explained it. It had some nice exposition on her relationship with Mary and made me want to see some flashbacks to their teen years. The way Mary talks about Kate it seems like they've had a tighter relationship than we've really seen on screen. I definitely believe that Mary admires Kate, but my interpretation has always been that she's not confident in that relationship - I've thought that since her first appearance where she called Kate and felt like she needed to tell Kate it was Mary, her stepsister. And I can see why Kate would be closed off and make her feel that way after losing her twin. But the bonding they've mentioned sounds like stuff they really would've done together. I'd like to see more of their relationship. Ruby Rose has been improving throughout this show, and I especially enjoyed Kate's conversations with her sisters. 

Alice's plan to get the knife was great. But Bruce Wayne won't appreciate that fanboy stabbing his cousin.

[legaleagle53]

4 hours ago, bettername2come said:

I've liked the greater focus on Luke the past couple episodes. It's good, it helps flesh out his character, and he's got nice arms.

No kidding. I took one look at those arms and thought, "Damn -- no wonder Kara thought the Luke of Earth-99 was hot!"

[sugarbaker design]

So Luke says something and Kate just believes it, with no backup, no back story?  Isn't there a possibility Luke could be wrong?

[BaggythePanther]

On 5/2/2020 at 1:24 AM, possibilities said:

Until this episode, I thought Kate hardly even knew Mary, and that they must not have grown up together. I thought maybe one of them had been off at boarding school or something. I'm taking this as a retcon. I'll forgive it if they give us flashbacks, so we can see it. I like the IDEA of the two of them being close, but in a way it makes Kate's recent coldness to her even worse. Yeah, she had a secret, blah blah blah; that means her not trusting Mary would hurt Mary even more, and Kate didn't seen even slightly worried about that.

For the last few years Kate had been traveling the world training and before that she was away at military school. I’m not sure how long Kate and Mary lived in the same house before Kate went away to military school. I think Kate is probably about 10 years older than Mary so I can see a situation like @joanne3482 describes, where Kate tolerated Mary during the time they lived together but Mary idolized Kate. It’s only now that Kate is learning to appreciate Mary. 

I want to know what happened to Mary’s birth father. He’s never mentioned so he could be dead but in a town like Gotham I feel like there is more to it.

[possibilities]

 thought Jacob was Mary's birth father? She and Kate/Beth all have the same father, don't they?

[Trini]

20 minutes ago, possibilities said:

 thought Jacob was Mary's birth father? She and Kate/Beth all have the same father, don't they?

No, or Mary would be a lot younger. The car crash (before Jacob married Catherine) happened 12-15(?) years ago. Plus, I think the early episodes acknowledged that they they were stepsisters.

[Joe Hellandback]

On 4/27/2020 at 2:02 AM, Jediknight said:

Bruce killed Joker dead.  Holy crap, now that's a revelation.  Now, we gotta wait to see the reveal as to what set him off.

Mary came through with the best Hallway Talk ever.

Maybe he didn't? Maybe with the devil's strength he twists?

On 4/27/2020 at 2:24 AM, CletusMusashi said:

Lot of things this week to like, but I do have to ask Alice one question:

That "getting stabbed deliberately in order to re-use the sewing thread" schtick... really? You have time to kill people, skin their faces, and apparently get rid of the bodies without anyone noticing, but you can't just grab some new thread while you're at it? It seems like the most elaborate part of that whole plan was actually the least necessary.

And also to get Tommy's shiv in the first place?

On 4/27/2020 at 3:01 AM, quarks said:

1. Batman killed Joker?

2. Mary remains the absolute best. Staying behind with her patients, giving Kate the needed pep talk (and how awesome is it that Kate defeated her little sister way back when). Not to mention her final scene with Luke and Kate.

3. Batman killed Joker??

4. I realize that part of the point of this episode was to reinforce that Arkham Asylum is not exactly the best run place, but surely someone should have noticed a new dead body or that one of their patients was no longer there?

5. Batman killed Joker???

6. Awwww, Alice daydreams of playing video games with Kate. A plan that might have gone just a leeeetttllleee better if you hadn't killed so many people, Alice.

7. Seriously, Batman killed Joker????

8. Sophie, that was all very heroic, but your boss has been a complete jerk to you. No need to stay by his side. Go be with better people.

9. Are we all absolutely positive that Batman killed Joker? 

10. Absolutely loved that Lucius Fox set up a lockdown system for Wayne Enterprises that could defeat a bomb. Maybe he was the person who really killed Joker. 

You really think so? Jacob treats Sophie like a surrogate daughter? 

[Joe Hellandback]

On 4/27/2020 at 8:15 PM, Rushmoras said:

Wait, what? The doctor, who shocks patients, still has a job? Thought that he got arrested. Also, too little Alice, me not like this episode, very boring I find, hard time to pay attention I had.

It's not torture it's ECT, considering how far they are gone?

On 4/29/2020 at 4:08 AM, RobertDeSneero said:

Mary wasn't completely clicking for me as a character until this episode because I never quite understood why Kate's opinion mattered so much to her.   I never perceived Kate as being close enough to Mary to want to teach her to drive.  Actually, I don't think I ever got the impression that Kate cared that much about Mary.  Not that she hated Mary, but it felt more like she tolerated Mary because their parents married.  This episode changed that perception for me.

I don't think the writers were quite sure what they wanted from Mary at the beginning.  She had all the makings of that scrappy, impetuous, and sometimes bratty younger character whose role is to be that sunshiny sidekick who humanizes an overly grim main hero.

Wonder if it was a female cop who pulled them over? A female motorcycle cop? 

On 5/8/2020 at 7:41 AM, Trini said:

No, or Mary would be a lot younger. The car crash (before Jacob married Catherine) happened 12-15(?) years ago. Plus, I think the early episodes acknowledged that they they were stepsisters.

Yes, they're step sisters. 

[Joe Hellandback]

On 5/8/2020 at 1:04 AM, BaggythePanther said:

For the last few years Kate had been traveling the world training and before that she was away at military school. I’m not sure how long Kate and Mary lived in the same house before Kate went away to military school. I think Kate is probably about 10 years older than Mary so I can see a situation like @joanne3482 describes, where Kate tolerated Mary during the time they lived together but Mary idolized Kate. It’s only now that Kate is learning to appreciate Mary. 

I want to know what happened to Mary’s birth father. He’s never mentioned so he could be dead but in a town like Gotham I feel like there is more to it.

Good point, never considered that?

[Joe Hellandback]

On 4/29/2020 at 8:26 AM, possibilities said:

He's the show's chronic damsel in distress.

Or Steve Trevor? 

[Joe Hellandback]

1. Wow, check out Apollo Fox! I think he just had his Diana Prince moment.  

2. So Alice's happy place is just having a normal life with her beloved Kate? You wonder if Kate had let her and mouse go if they would they still have been villains.  

3. Julia and Sophie, trading burgers! 

4. You know if you just removed the detonators from the blocks of C4 they would still go off but the main charge wouldn't explode. 

5. Nice to see Tommy Eliott and Magpie again, old villains resurfacing is always joy. One of the reasons Batman is better than Superman is that he has more interesting enemies.

6. Boy it sure is convenient that everyone Mouse has to impersonate is the same height and build as him? 

7. Kate seems to get over her PTSD pretty quick? Nice scene where she thinks she's accidentally killed the burglar, you always thought that even with non-lethal weapons that would happen some time? But why is she letting him go? Surely tie him up and leave him for the GCPD?  

8. I rather got the impression that Mouse was for real in Arkham, with his dad dead they could have cured him, if only they'd have separated him from Alice. 

9. Nice bit with the Easter Egg, quite realistic. 

10. Julia joins the Crows, they obviously listen to the fans. 

11. So now Alice will turn Arkham into her powerbase? Clever, as is her playing on Tommy's fears.

12. So Batman killed the Joker? I remain to be convinced 

7/10

[John Potts]

OK, I'm liking Julia. More people should go, "Get a hold of yourself!" Less impressed with Luke - he does know Kate is Batmanning because she chooses to. Is she not allowed any time to herself? Though he is working through his own issues, so I'll cut him a little slack.

"This was never released to the public, so we know it's not a copycat." I saw the flaw in that as soon as he said it, though I thought it would be somebody who knew the Detonator (agreed, it's a terrible name - why not "Midnight Bomber that Bombs at Midnight" if you're going to be that unoriginal?). The fact that it was never revealed to the public merely means you want to start looking at him first, them at those with a connection to him or the case next. Though I couldn't help wondering if he wasn't a fan of the Saw movies, what with how he leaves a tape that offers his victims a Sadistic Choice.

22 minutes is a long time to defuse a bomb, relatively speaking - apparently enough time to evacuate the buildings under threat. You'd think the mad bomber would say they weren't allowed to do that.

On 4/27/2020 at 6:23 PM, Featherhat said:

I liked Kate exploring how she feels after her first official kill. Slid into cliché at times but I'm glad they showed it. I don't actually mind it when heroes kill, it's sometimes a lot more preferable than not making the hard choice and letting a bad guy go to kill others because you want your own hands clean but I'm glad there are emotional consequences as well. 

Agreed. I don't mind the fact that Kate has killed, but I'm glad it wasn't just brushed off as nothing. I'm sure her PTSD will be unrealistically be resolved before the next episode, but I'm glad it was at least addressed.

On 4/27/2020 at 10:35 PM, Lantern7 said:

This is Arkham Asylum. When that gets into a story, all the old-timey stereotype psych bullshit comes into play.

I assume adverts for Arkham say, "Come work at Arkham Asylum! Low pay. Psychopaths welcome!"