S10.E15: The Tower

[nodorothyparker]

Airdate 2020.04.05

Quote

The communities prepare for the final battle of the Whisperer War. Meanwhile, Eugene's group encounters someone new.

 

REMINDER:  This thread is for discussion of what appears onscreen only.  If you didn't see it happen, it does not belong here and your post WILL be removed.  DO NOT DISCUSS CASTING NEWS, including reported cast comings and goings beyond what's onscreen, OR SPOILERS.   That includes what you see in the previews.  We have separate threads for spoilers or the comics.  

[CletusMusashi]

Why is it called "The Tower?" Shouldn't it be called "the mine field" or "the windmill" or "the garage with a bunch of old bikes in it?"

[MrsRafaelBarba]

2 minutes ago, CletusMusashi said:

Why is it called "The Tower?" Shouldn't it be called "the mine field" or "the windmill" or "the garage with a bunch of old bikes in it?"

Or

 

Welcome Back to.Atlanta.

[AngelaHunter]

Show? How dare you give us compassionate, avuncular Negan? Do you think we forgot what he did to the last young girl in his control? What makes Lydia so special that he won't use the same manipulation and coercion with her? Watching her hugging him made me queasy, because we know that to him women and girls are just prey, just things to be used, bartered and traded. 🤢

[BellyLaughter]

32 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

Show? How dare you give us compassionate, avuncular Negan? Do you think we forgot what he did to the last young girl in his control? What makes Lydia so special that he won't use the same manipulation and coercion with her? Watching her hugging him made me queasy, because we know that to him women and girls are just prey, just things to be used, bartered and traded. 🤢

Aren't we supposed to (conveniently) forget that now?? 

[econ07]

With that huge crowd of walkers amassed in front of the hospital, why don't they just shoot gasoline at it (or tree sap) and set it on fire, then duck out the back.  It's not like they care about that site staying upright.

[CrazyDog]

OK, what the *hell* was Beta mumbling about?! I literally got none of it. Where did the cat (kitty!) come from? 

How did Beta find the tower? What city are they all in? I need maps.

I hated Princess at first, but eh, I kind of like the humor she brought out of Ezekiel. She might turn out to be fun. And she has candy! Loved Eugene's reaction.

Kumiko was really dour. She's not the most entertaining character to watch, though she was the smartest one tonight.

Aaron and Aiden, good grief. Is this your first rodeo? I totally thought Beta spotted Aiden before.

Negan, Lydia, whatever. Unnecessary scenes.

I normally like Judith, but she needs a liitle reality check if she's going to join in adult zombie/whisperer time. Daryl owed that whisperer nothing. And I wish she told Daryl about Rick, but I get why she didn't.

Ok episode, but not a lot happened. I am looking forward to the finale though.

[mxc90]

If the horse stepped on a mine, no one heard the explosion earlier to question what's going on? Seems odd the group found out about the mines at that time. 

From last week, I had a feeling princess would be annoying. And she thinks Eugene is the hardest one to beat out of the group???Someone please help her!

[mrspidey]

50 minutes ago, CrazyDog said:

How did Beta find the tower? What city are they all in? I need maps.

 

They're in the Capitol Wasteland and have been for years. Alexandria is that Alexandria. 

On the episode: I liked it. Showing Beta's descent into madness by having him talk to the actual walkers and giving them an imagined voice is really fucking creepy. 

Only issue i have is with the Whisperer's goals. Like, Oceanside? Really? Considering the pace of the herd, that trip would take them weeks. 

Edited April 6, 2020 by mrspidey

[Lamima]

I like princess. As a Survivor watcher, she reminds me of the Queen. A little.

Otherwise, lame episode. 

Edited April 6, 2020 by Lamima

[sigmaforce86]

7 hours ago, mxc90 said:

If the horse stepped on a mine, no one heard the explosion earlier to question what's going on? Seems odd the group found out about the mines at that time. 

Maybe the horse had the same supernatural sound muffling technology as the helicopter that took Rick away with nobody seeing or hearing?

I couldn't understand half of what Beta was whispering mumbling either but I figured it was along the lines of "crazy talk, crazy talk, kill everyone, crazy talk, crazy talk, Alpha is my spirit guide, crazy talk, crazy talk, Cat!"

Since both Aaron and Alden are personal favorites of mine I did not like that they were both in danger the whole time especially at the end.

It wasn't a bad episode, it was definitely a set up for the big finale war to come but since those types of set up episodes seem to always be a little slow I think it was OK as those things go.

Edited April 6, 2020 by sigmaforce86

[nodorothyparker]

I had no idea what Beta was saying either but quickly realized it was probably a bunch of crazy crazy crazy argle bargle and it probably didn't matter beyond that.  Beta is a fairly effective horror movie monster who definitely works better the less we know about him or what supposedly motivates him.  

I've long since mostly stopped watching this show expecting it to be deadly serious or make sense, so I found the Princess introduction kind of entertaining.  I like that Ezekiel, who was introduced as a cosplay king, seemed to immediately get what was going on with her and that Eugene, who entered the canvas also telling lie after lie to the gullible "badasses" who carried him, quickly followed suit.  For all of its many many faults, FTWD gave us one fairly effective portrayal of someone who had muddled along for a very long time alone, and now this show gives us another.  Sure, the presentation is cartoonish, but I would hardly expect someone who's spent the last year and some change completely alone playing dress up with zombies in the ruins of a city to have it all perfectly together. After a season and a half I know absolutely nothing about Yumiko except that she was in a relationship with Magma (And yes, I realize her name is actually Magna for all the difference it makes, but it's funny to me so I'm leaving it.)  and that she seems pretty damn dour and humorless much of the time, so her protestations fell mostly flat with me.  

The rest of it?  Well, as usual, there's crisis looming with an imminent attack, so of course we have plenty of time for everyone to wander off to separate corners to get deep in their feelings.  It might have even been interesting if the show hadn't wasted half of the buildup to the battle of Hilltop doing the exact same thing.  I'm mostly just amused that both Daryl and Negan seem to be experts at catching and cooking possum and that if I didn't know any better I'd think they seem to be heading toward an ending of Miss Daryl and Negan's Home for Abandoned or Orphaned Urchins.

[nodorothyparker]

That was kind of a throwaway, wasn't it?  Princess mentions that she has access to plenty of weapons if they want them, and they just ... don't react at all.  I realize we've been presented with a universe where guns are increasingly scarce, but seriously, none of them thought that was least worth checking out?  It's like they've all gotten so caught up in Eugene's maybe ham radio tinder that none of them are thinking about the Whisperer war they left half finished at home.

[Iguessnot]

Y'all need to turn on closed captioning like us old geezers. Beta was whispering "where are they" a lot. Then he kept whispering "faith". At one point one of the real walkers turned to him and said he would be rewarded. None of this behavior or these actions make any sense.

Once again one of the fellow whisperers tries to converse with Beta and almost gets shanked.

So why didn't Judith tell Daryl about Rick? And why didn't Daryl grill the precocious child about all that was said?

[AngelaHunter]

8 hours ago, CrazyDog said:

OK, what the *hell* was Beta mumbling about?!

I believe I transcribed some of it using my CC: "This is wrong. They are not fools. They expect us. Have faaaaaaith in your strennnnngthhhh. Watch. Learrrrrrrn. We walk. We wait."

1 hour ago, sigmaforce86 said:

Maybe the horse had the same supernatural sound muffling technology as the helicopter that took Rick away with nobody seeing or hearing?

Who knew an invisible helicopter could be so silent? And of course the forest stealth zombies are always totally quiet too - not even snapping a single twig - and no one hearing them stumbling and crashing around until the second their faces get chomped.

 

41 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

If Princes Pinhead had a huge stash of guns and ammo, why didn't Eugene, Yumiko, and Ezekiel, grab up all of the guns and ammo and head back to Alexandria?

Yeah, just like Ricky, a.k.a. "The Brave Man" did to the terrorized Oceanside gang.

9 hours ago, CrazyDog said:

Daryl owed that whisperer nothing.

No, he didn't and had not a moment's hesitation about killing her. But not only did he owe Negan nothing, but had ample reason to kill him when he had the chance. I guess he realized no bolt could penetrate plot armour made of titanium.

[CletusMusashi]

12 minutes ago, Iguessnot said:

And why didn't Daryl grill the precocious child

Because they still have possums. He's saving her for later.

[mightysparrow]

I agree with the person that said this felt like a 'filler' episode.  Because not one single fucking thing of any importance happened in a whole hour (with ample time taken out for commercials).

Are there viewers who are enjoying Judith?  Is that why she's EVERYWHERE now?  Or is this punishment for all the people who complained about Carl, who I always liked?  Norman Reedus is earning his big paycheck.

I hope Aaron doesn't die.

I'm kind of liking Princess.  The character is absolutely ridiculous, but she's interesting which is something that CAN'T be said about most of the other characters on this show.  Anyone who makes Ezekiel happy is okay with me.  And if Princess does have a big stash of clothes, I hope she has a bright red shirt for Yumiko, because ENOUGH.  And she can take one for Carol too. Shit, I hope she's got a trunk full of them.

 

 

 

Edited April 6, 2020 by mightysparrow

[iMonrey]

I swear I thought I was following this but why are all these people holed up in an abandoned hospital? Why aren't they heading to Alexandria? Do we know if Alexandria still stands?

What the hell were Aaron and Alden doing all episode long? At one point one turned to the other and said "This plan might work." What plan? All they seem to be doing is following Beta's herd.

Oh, so now Lydia and Negan are hugging. Guess what, show? Still not buying your Negan redemption arc. This show really thinks they can make Negan the new lead don't they? It's ridiculous.  Until they get rid of him - and the Whisperers - the show will remain garbage.

It's not unsalvageable. I did kind of like all the Princess scenes, despite my hatred of Eugene. It felt more like old-school Walking Dead. Small group of characters. Good intro of new character too.

Well we've been asking why they don't ride bikes for 10 years now so there's that.

Edited April 6, 2020 by iMonrey

[econ07]

1 hour ago, nodorothyparker said:

That was kind of a throwaway, wasn't it?  Princess mentions that she has access to plenty of weapons if they want them, and they just ... don't react at all.  I realize we've been presented with a universe where guns are increasingly scarce, but seriously, none of them thought that was least worth checking out?  It's like they've all gotten so caught up in Eugene's maybe ham radio tinder that none of them are thinking about the Whisperer war they left half finished at home.

Maybe they figured that if wheels translated to bicycles, then weapons would translate to sling-shots or worse yet, a book of slanderous quotes and insults to hurl at your enemy.

[AngelaHunter]

42 minutes ago, mightysparrow said:

And if Princess does have a big stash of clothes, I hope she has a bright red shirt for Yumiko, because ENOUGH.  And she can take one for Carol too.

Yumiko really is insipid - dull as dishwater and totally personality-free. And Carol can take her endless well of tears and her pills (did her 1hr addiction have any meaning?), her Greta Garbo crap, her obsession with that little shitass Henry, and her claustrophobia and go red-shirt herself as well.

Even Daryl, who I have never disliked, is annoying as he stands there, pointing his bow at Negan's dome and doing sweet fuck all about getting rid of him. And then like an idiot he lets a gang of skinfaces get the jump on him (is his hearing going too?) just so Show can illustrate what a terrifically good guy, a paragon of virtue Negan has become.

[mrspidey]

2 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

That was kind of a throwaway, wasn't it?  Princess mentions that she has access to plenty of weapons if they want them, and they just ... don't react at all.  I realize we've been presented with a universe where guns are increasingly scarce, but seriously, none of them thought that was least worth checking out?  

I guess after all those years, they've gotten acustomed to using bows, crossbows and melee weapons and don't see guns as all that useful anymore. Afterall, everytime you put a bullet in a walker you just attract ten more due to the noise the gun makes. You just never have enough bullets. 

The other issue might be weapon maintenance. 

[CletusMusashi]

When you're fighting a hoard, attracting a few dozen more zombies is the least of your worries.

And weapon maintenance is not a concern on this show. That's why Michonne can resheath a bloody katana, Daryl and Yumiko can keep their bows strung 24/7, and even the stupid whisperers can sleep in wet mud every night without any concern for their firearms.

[Madding crowd]

Still can't wrap my head around Beta being able to talk, leave the hoard at times and act in every way human yet the walkers are fooled because he wears a partial mask. Princess seemed like another comic book character who will stand out for not seeming real much like Abraham did for me and Eugene still does.

I think Judith is only on so much because people complain about no originals and she can remind us of the OGs. Carol seems a shadow of her former self and Daryl seem incapable to doing more than mumbling and stalking around the woods. I do feel sorry for Judith because to have your mother just leave you and your little brother to be cared for mostly by strangers on top of your father disappearing is a lot to handle. I would never, ever leave my child in an ZA. Especially not to help people you just met, your kids come first. 

[rmontro]

Kind of a dull episode, just a setup for the finale basically.

I did like Princess, comic book character that she is.

The interesting thing I learned on Talking Dead this week is that Beta's mask is stitched together with guitar string.  Don't think I ever would have noticed that on my own.

 

4 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

That cat could have been any stray cat, it didn't necessarily mean that the protagonist were nearby.  It wasn't as though the cat had a tag on his/her collar telling Beta who the cat's owner was with an address.

That bugged me too.  It was a cat.  No one has seen a cat in the apocalypse before? 

[Ohwell]

The thing I hate most about Princess, aka Not Cardi B, is those crazy eyes of hers.   It is annoying to look at her.  I was surprised to see her on Talking Dead and that she actually looked nice and normal.  So I don't understand why she makes crazy eyes on the show, unless she's just been alone too long and is, in fact, crazy.    

[iMonrey]

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That was kind of a throwaway, wasn't it?  Princess mentions that she has access to plenty of weapons if they want them, and they just ... don't react at all.

They seemed laser-focused on finding this friend Eugene was talking to, and the fact that there is some narrow window for meeting this person. It's kind of bizarre because they have no idea what they're getting into. It's  quite likely a stash of guns would be more useful right now than some rando Eugene met on the CB radio.

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Still can't wrap my head around Beta being able to talk, leave the hoard at times and act in every way human yet the walkers are fooled because he wears a partial mask.

Well that's never going to make sense because it contradicts everything this show told us about Walkers for the first eight seasons. Does anyone here read the comics? Does it make more sense there?

Quote

Princess seemed like another comic book character who will stand out for not seeming real much like Abraham did for me and Eugene still does.

I wondered whether the recent change to the opening title sequence, which now looks more cartoonish, is a by-product of a deliberate choice to make the show itself more like a comic book and less realistic. It never felt like I was watching something out of a comic book during the first six or seven seasons like it does now.

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The interesting thing I learned on Talking Dead this week is that Beta's mask is stitched together with guitar string.  Don't think I ever would have noticed that on my own.

See, this is the thing that pisses me off. If this were a well-written show I might appreciate these little details more. But since it's not, I get the sense that all the focus is on little Easter Eggs and cool effects rather than trying to tell a decent story that's half-way believable. When they pat theirselves on the backs over shit like this it's very telling where their priorities are.

[mrspidey]

49 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Well that's never going to make sense because it contradicts everything this show told us about Walkers for the first eight seasons. Does anyone here read the comics? Does it make more sense there?

No.

[AngelaHunter]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

Well that's never going to make sense because it contradicts everything this show told us about Walkers for the first eight seasons. Does anyone here read the comics?

I don't read comic books but it makes so little sense I've decided to ignore it. Beta and his followers can stand there, talking and doing all manner of other human things - cooking, eating, killing each other, sleeping, snoring, screwing -  yet the zombies never, ever figure out that they are living people. This has never happened on this show. Ever. Even when someone used the zombie guts to camouflage themselves it has always been shown to be a momentary disguise.  I guess we're supposed to forget all that, the way we should forget that Negan is a sadistic, sicko rapist because TPTB say he's a good guy now.

4 hours ago, rmontro said:

The interesting thing I learned on Talking Dead this week is that Beta's mask is stitched together with guitar string.  Don't think I ever would have noticed that on my own.

And I guess those of use who never watch one second of TTD will just have to remain ignorant (but does it  really matter what he used to stitch together his silly rubber mask?) because we have show runners and writers who prefer to "tell" rather than "show".

 

[heisenberg]

56 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Those bicycles haven't been used for a very long time.   At a minimum, the tires are most likely flat.   The chains could also be rusty.

They could have gone to a bike shop or a store and make some brand new ones operational,  they are in a town...

Edited April 7, 2020 by heisenberg

[heisenberg]

4 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I wondered whether the recent change to the opening title sequence, which now looks more cartoonish, is a by-product of a deliberate choice to make the show itself more like a comic book and less realistic. It never felt like I was watching something out of a comic book during the first six or seven seasons like it does now.

My take on this is that they are stretching the story too long.   The whisperers in the comic did not have so long of exposure,  so you saw less of the flaws of the hole thing. 

If the whisperers had last only one season they would still have been silly but we would be somewhere else and forgot most of it.  Now after two seasons it is just ridiculous.

[tennisgurl]

I mean, at least Princess is interesting, which is certainly better than a lot of the randos that they introduce on this show. She is super over the top in a comic book kind of way...which makes sense considering this is a comic book adaptation, but it is weird to see this super over the top character in this world that aims (with varying degrees of success) for realism. Maybe thats why they stuck her with Eugene and Ezekiel, who are a bit more theatrical and over the top than much of the cast. 

Please, for Gods sake, could The Whispers just say a freaking sentence without mumbling? God, if its not Negan rambling on about his own dick, its the Whispers and their eternal hairball.

[Iguessnot]

7 hours ago, iMonrey said:

 

See, this is the thing that pisses me off. If this were a well-written show I might appreciate these little details more. But since it's not, I get the sense that all the focus is on little Easter Eggs and cool effects rather than trying to tell a decent story that's half-way believable. When they pat theirselves on the backs over shit like this it's very telling where their priorities are.

Heck I can't figure out why his former career is even important. Maybe he played his records backwards thus causing the zombie apocalypse and giving him magical powers over corpses. That's all I got.

[Nashville]

4 hours ago, Iguessnot said:

Heck I can't figure out why his former career is even important. Maybe he played his records backwards thus causing the zombie apocalypse and giving him magical powers over corpses. That's all I got.

I dunno; I live in Nashville, so the notion of country music turning people into mindless zombies doesn’t seem all that far-fetched to me....

[mrspidey]

15 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

I don't read comic books but it makes so little sense I've decided to ignore it. Beta and his followers can stand there, talking and doing all manner of other human things - cooking, eating, killing each other, sleeping, snoring, screwing -  yet the zombies never, ever figure out that they are living people.

 

Well, it's not like they sleep and live amidst walkers. We've seen them keeping their herds well outside their camp's perimeter, shepparded by "On-Duty-Whisperers".  This not only prevents the walkers from eating them, they also act as a shield for the camp. 

This is the same in both, comics and show.

What doesn't make sense is how they pass as walkers simply by wearing a mask. 

Edited April 7, 2020 by mrspidey

[AngelaHunter]

1 hour ago, mrspidey said:

. We've seen them keeping their herds well outside their camp's perimeter, shepparded by "On-Duty-Whisperers". 

Yeah, and how do they do that - keep an enormous number of zombies standing in one place, away from the group of juicy humans and avoid being eaten themselves? Oh, right. they have some dead skin on their faces.

Warning: This technique works only for Whisperers. Do not try this at home, kids.

5 hours ago, Nashville said:

I dunno; I live in Nashville, so the notion of country music turning people into mindless zombies doesn’t seem all that far-fetched to me....

Some of it could shut my brain down. 😅

[Sam Spayaid]

I agree that this was not much of an episode so that's par for the course with the way this show has been going.

I thought that Judith's insistence of a make shift funeral was stupid indeed. Seeing as she was born into this world and has not known anything else, then why all of a sudden would she want someone buried? She should know by now that is rarely done.

Is it just me or is this show starting to feel like it is running out of story lines? Let me rephrase....GOOD story lines?

[Mr. Sparkle]

49 minutes ago, Sam Spayaid said:

Is it just me or is this show starting to feel like it is running out of story lines? Let me rephrase....GOOD story lines?

"Starting" is the only word I question here. 

[Iguessnot]

Ok, why is there a minefield in the middle of a residential or business neighborhood?

[Mr. Sparkle]

47 minutes ago, Iguessnot said:

Ok, why is there a minefield in the middle of a residential or business neighborhood?

And why haven't the mines been set off by the walkers in the last 6-8 years since the ZA began? 

[mrspidey]

2 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

 

Princess was stalling around for some reason.  I don't know if she has a group of people or not, but it seems more than likely that she does. Otherwise, there was no reason why she wouldn't lead the trio directly to the bicycles immediately.

 

Yes there was. She explained it. She didn't want to be alone. She had been for over a year.

Even after mere 4 weeks of lockdown i can already emphasize. And i'm an introvert...

Edited April 7, 2020 by mrspidey

[AngelaHunter]

4 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

I can see boredom being an issue, which is probably why she dressed up some of the walkers

I'm wondering how she managed to do that all by herself. Are walkers now as harmless as store mannequins? Negan got taken down onto the ground by a walker recently, didn't he? Yet our Princess has no trouble wrangling them all and dressing them up without any injuring to herself. Okay.

[seacliffsal]

So much stupid this episode.  But the stupid that takes the cake is why Eugene and the woman were not holding the reins of their horses while talking to Princess.  Then the woman gets all irate at Princess.  No, yoou're the one who let go of the reins.

And, I'm included in the stupid (well for more than even watching this show anymore...) as I have no idea whatsoever why they have abandoned Alexandria.  

After all the greatness of this show and the ever increasing nonsense with characters I don't know or care about, it may finally be over for me and I may actually be able to walk away.

[seacliffsal]

Oh, and recycled plot lines-wasn't there a time when the Governor went to attack the prison and they had left?  Just like Beta going to attack Alexandria and they left.

[Starchild]

I like Princess, she makes me laugh.

I heard the finale is indefinitely postponed, is that true? If so, why?

[Mr. Sparkle]

27 minutes ago, Starchild said:

I heard the finale is indefinitely postponed, is that true? If so, why?

They weren't able to do the post-production remotely. 

[Sam Spayaid]

21 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

And given the way everyone involved with this series seems to be constantly patting themselves on the back every time a walker farts, I don't see any pressure on the writers or the showrunner to do better.

That's all that "Talking Dead" has become...one big love fest where Nicotero and Kang gush over how clever a certain camera angle or effect was when meanwhile ignoring the most crucial element of all and that is, the writing. Artsy angles is not going to help a boring, convoluted story line. 

Does anyone think that maybe this show is just plain all played out and it really needs to start thinking about it's exit strategy? 

[Red Bridey]

I am completely confused by where that actually are. The Kingdom crashed and is no more, right? Alexandria got burned to the ground during the battle with the Saviors, right? Hilltop just got burned down by the Whisperers, right? Is this the same hospital that Beth got murdered in? I am so confused. Is Oceanside still a thing? Please, someone who pays more attention, catch me up!

[Ohwell]

4 hours ago, Sam Spayaid said:

Does anyone think that maybe this show is just plain all played out and it really needs to start thinking about it's exit strategy? 

✋

[AngelaHunter]

On 4/7/2020 at 7:02 PM, seacliffsal said:

But the stupid that takes the cake is why Eugene and the woman were not holding the reins of their horses while talking to Princess.

What I said. They stood there like idiots and watched the horses take off and no one cared. Oh, well. Forget them. They're gone. There's an endless supply of horses and gear where they came from, I guess.

On 4/7/2020 at 7:08 PM, seacliffsal said:

Oh, and recycled plot lines-wasn't there a time when the Governor went to attack the prison and they had left? 

IIRC, they all left during the attack. I do think I remember that because of how shocking it was seeing those two little girls aiming guns at the Woodbury woman's head and pulling the triggers. Ah, the good ol' days when this show was NOT cartoon-y.

Edited April 8, 2020 by AngelaHunter
Missed an essential word because too much wine

[rmontro]

7 hours ago, Red Bridey said:

Is this the same hospital that Beth got murdered in?

I wondered that myself, it looked similar.  I'm guessing probably not, because if it was, they would have trumpeted it on Talking Dead as some sort of genius callback to previous episodes.  Or maybe they even did, but I wasn't paying attention.

I like Princess, but they need to write her a little less stupid.