S05.E05: Dedicado a Max

[Bannon]

2 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Walter White was a drug kingpin and mass murderer, but they still had  me rooting for him.

Jesse Pinkman was a drug dealer, murderer, drug addict and a guy, who will making $500K peremonth, tried to make a few extra bucks by stealing meth from his boss, and selling it to addicts...a 12 Step meetings.   I still cared about him.

Fring was a villain, but I was thrilled when he took out Eladio and the cartel, and was a little sad when Walt killed him.

On other shows, like "The Wire" and especially "The Sopranos", viewers were made to care deeply about a lot of the murderers and gangsters.   

I think, over the past couple of seasons of BCS, G&G have neglected to give the viewers whatever it is that makes us care about bad people and what happens to them.  

I'm pretty sure Gilligan and Co. were surprised by how many viewers were rooting for Walter White. I know I thought it a bit odd, but then I don't root for or against characters. I just want them to prevail or fail in an interesting way. If these writers don't flesh out Kim's motivations more than they have as of yet, that will be kind of uninteresting to me. We'll see what happens.

[Bryce Lynch]

1 hour ago, scenario said:

Everyone's opinion is valid, up to a point. The show is in its fifth year. It has always stretched things out. I understand some people lose patience with this sort of thing but they shouldn't be surprised that the show continues to do what it always has done. 

To me, its like acting surprised and annoyed that a hospital show has scenes in an operating room or a show about fire fighters has a fire in it. 

Some people like the law scenes with Saul and Kim better. Some like the cartel scenes better. That's fine. But threatening to stop watching because you like one type of scene and are really bored with the other is kind of foolish. That's what the show is. 

This people on this site are quite good. I've just seen too many trolls on other sites who insist on hate watching shows and then complaining about them. Why aren't there more car chases in a hospital show kind of complaints are just too foolish. I've been on Star Trek sites and there are people complaining about the show being set on a star ship. 

BCS was always a bit slower than I'd like.  But, when we were getting to know the characters for the first couple of seasons, I don't think it was a big problem.   Now that we know the characters pretty well, I'd like to see things happen with them a bit more.  Also, I just don't find the stories in the past 2 seasons as interesting as the first 3, at any speed.

BB was nothing like BCS in pacing.  IMO, the only plotlines that even resembled a BCS pace was Walt's relationship with Skyler and maybe the Walt-Jesse-Fring dynamic.   

But, at least one pretty big thing happened in just about every BB episode.  

 

[Irlandesa]

11 hours ago, chick binewski said:

I just loved this episode. Gus understanding what will work on Mike, just like he did with Jesse.

Yes, this was a highlight to see the Gus as the people-manager I loved in Breaking Bad.

12 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

A LOT of us sympathize with the underdog, instead of the golf playing, rich bankers of the world. Probably more of us than they think.

I think that's true.  But not all underdogs are the same and I think most of us wouldn't violate the ethics of our profession just to stick it to the rich guy. 

2 hours ago, Bannon said:

I cannot believe that the writers are only going to give us what we have been given, with regard to Kim's motivations.Jimmy, Chuck, and Mike have all been provided very in depth backstories, which consumed a lot of screen time, to explain their behavior. I

I agree.  Even Gus, with all the mystery surrounding his past, has enough back story to explain why he makes many of the decisions he does.  Kim's motivation is so slight with this story.

It's not like we haven't seen her viciously defend a client or person before even when she knows the client is in the wrong.  It happened a few times with Saul concerning his dealings with Chuck and Howard.  And in some respects, she still took on Mesa Verde even knowing how she got that account. 

I think that was developed better, however, in that it was ultimately connected to the story of Saul. She went along with Jimmy's schemes because she loved him.  She connected with him.  And even though she knew it was wrong, she took advantage of what he gave her.

This isn't. She has brought Saul in but it doesn't feel connected to the overall story.  Maybe it will pay off eventually but right now, I feel lost.

2 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I think, over the past couple of seasons of BCS, G&G have neglected to give the viewers whatever it is that makes us care about bad people and what happens to them.  

Gilligan isn't part of the day-to-day of the show any longer.  While the show is still enjoyable to me and well constructed, I do think there's a marked difference in character development compared to the first few seasons when he was in the writers room.

1 hour ago, scenario said:

It has always stretched things out. I understand some people lose patience with this sort of thing but they shouldn't be surprised that the show continues to do what it always has done.

It is a part of the show but that doesn't mean it's always done well.  Sometimes it really is.  And sometimes it isn't.

[Pike Ludwell]

Kim has really become a low-life sort of person. Because that old coot is on the wrong side of the law, has erroneous expectations, is rude and a total A-H and causing problems for everybody, the only things that can explain her necessity to help him out are issues from a childhood history of evictions or she just plain is super stubborn and she hates to lose . Neither gives me any sympathy for her ethics violations. And then she signs on to efforts to see about destroying her employer's reputation. Then when she is confronted in her office, she lies to the guy and makes a big scene, totally disrupting the office and embarrassing the guy. She could have and should have been fired right there for that: Making a big scene when politely being requested to talk calmly in the office.  But I think things are really about to come to a head in that office. Schweikart is sharper than I had thought and he won't give up. By the way, it wasn't rocket science that Kim's indiscretions could be easily figured out.  Her actions are just wrong on several levels.

Edited March 18, 2020 by Pike Ludwell

[Bannon]

14 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

Yes, this was a highlight to see the Gus as the people-manager I loved in Breaking Bad.

I think that's true.  But not all underdogs are the same and I think most of us wouldn't violate the ethics of our profession just to stick it to the rich guy. 

I agree.  Even Gus, with all the mystery surrounding his past, has enough back story to explain why he makes many of the decisions he does.  Kim's motivation is so slight with this story.

It's not like we haven't seen her viciously defend a client or person before even when she knows the client is in the wrong.  It happened a few times with Saul concerning his dealings with Chuck and Howard.  And in some respects, she still took on Mesa Verde even knowing how she got that account. 

I think that was developed better, however, in that it was ultimately connected to the story of Saul. She went along with Jimmy's schemes because she loved him.  She connected with him.  And even though she knew it was wrong, she took advantage of what he gave her.

This isn't. She has brought Saul in but it doesn't feel connected to the overall story.  Maybe it will pay off eventually but right now, I feel lost.

Gilligan isn't part of the day-to-day of the show any longer.  While the show is still enjoyable to me and well constructed, I do think there's a marked difference in character development compared to the first few seasons when he was in the writers room.

It is a part of the show but that doesn't mean it's always done well.  Sometimes it really is.  And sometimes it isn't.

I'm still looking for the reason why Kim gives a damn about Ackers, beyond a generic dislike of evictions, due to childhood experiences, especially since Ackers (who really is just a run of the mill A-hole) tossed that experience back in her face. Or, failing that, some insight as to why she hates Kevin (who, all in all, has been pretty decent to her) so much that she would take risky, unethical, action to harm Mesa Verde. "I love Jimmy" just doesn't work here, because you can love Jimmy with all your heart, and still have no motivation to hook him up with Ackers the A-hole. Really hope the arc has a payoff in terms of illuminating character.

[iMonrey]

Can someone remind me who Max was? Was it Gus's brother? I have only the vaguest recollection of how that all went down, it's been so long since I've seen Breaking Bad. (Feel free to spoiler tag the synopsis if you feel it necessary.) Thanks in advance.

[Bannon]

32 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Can someone remind me who Max was? Was it Gus's brother? I have only the vaguest recollection of how that all went down, it's been so long since I've seen Breaking Bad. (Feel free to spoiler tag the synopsis if you feel it necessary.) Thanks in advance.

Spoiler

Max was Gus' life and business partner, and a brilliant chemist. He and Gus pitched Don Eladio, pre BCS, on the potential of the meth business. Don Eladio had Hector Salamanca shoot Max in the head, with Gus right next to him, to make sure Gus understood who was in charge. This set Gus on his quest for revenge, that eventually.results in Juan Bolsa being killed by the paid off Mexican military, in BB, and Gus, with Mike's and Jesse's assistance poisoning Don Eladio, and a bunch of his henchmen, as Mike garrotes Eladio's chief assassin.

 

Edited March 17, 2020 by Bannon

[ShadowFacts]

49 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I'm still looking for the reason why Kim gives a damn about Ackers, beyond a generic dislike of evictions, due to childhood experiences, especially since Ackers (who really is just a run of the mill A-hole) tossed that experience back in her face. Or, failing that, some insight as to why she hates Kevin (who, all in all, has been pretty decent to her) so much that she would take risky, unethical, action to harm Mesa Verde. "I love Jimmy" just doesn't work here, because you can love Jimmy with all your heart, and still have no motivation to hook him up with Ackers the A-hole. Really hope the arc has a payoff in terms of illuminating character.

We need this filled in.  She was looking triggered by Kevin's rant and I felt it now goes beyond being on Acker's side of things.  She has an anti-authoritarian bent for sure, but there just has to be more in her history.

[le bordel chaud]

 

Spoiler

Max was quite possibly Gus' partner in life/boyfriend as well.

 

[Bannon]

1 minute ago, Victim Noises said:

 

  Hide contents

Max was quite possibly Gus' partner in life/boyfriend as well.

Yes, pretty sure their relationship was romantic as well, given the antigay bigotry Hector directed at Gus.

 

[PeterPirate]

I think Rich knew Kim was pulling a fast one from the start, but was waiting to see if the situation would sort itself out.  When it didn't, he stepped in and tried to get Kevin to go with the alternate site.  When that didn't work, he gave Kim indirect instructions to recuse herself, and when she didn't take the hint he was more forthright.  Rich is circumspect and careful in his actions, but I think he will continue to ramp up his response and do what is needed to protect his firm.  He did a tactical retreat in this episode, but there's always next week.  I'll be surprised if Kim is still at S&C when the season's over.  

I think Kim's actions were triggered by Kevin's insistence that it be she, and nobody else, to confront Acker at his property.  When Jimmy first tried to get Kim to imitate Kevin I thought he was rude to keep her from relating the day's events, but in reality he got her to open up about her feelings.  

[Ellaria]

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

I'm pretty sure Gilligan and Co. were surprised by how many viewers were rooting for Walter White. I know I thought it a bit odd, but then I don't root for or against characters. I just want them to prevail or fail in an interesting way. If these writers don't flesh out Kim's motivations more than they have as of yet, that will be kind of uninteresting to me. We'll see what happens.

Agree about not rooting for or against fictional characters. You want their stories to resonate, to mean something, to touch you emotionally. My favorite show is The Wire and that's one of the many things that it did so beautifully. Those characters are unforgettable.

I love Kim but I think that her character's motivations have suffered throughout this show. 

1 hour ago, Irlandesa said:

But not all underdogs are the same and I think most of us wouldn't violate the ethics of our profession just to stick it to the rich guy. 

I agree.  Even Gus, with all the mystery surrounding his past, has enough back story to explain why he makes many of the decisions he does.  Kim's motivation is so slight with this story.

It's not like we haven't seen her viciously defend a client or person before even when she knows the client is in the wrong.  It happened a few times with Saul concerning his dealings with Chuck and Howard.  And in some respects, she still took on Mesa Verde even knowing how she got that account. 

I think that was developed better, however, in that it was ultimately connected to the story of Saul. She went along with Jimmy's schemes because she loved him.  She connected with him.  And even though she knew it was wrong, she took advantage of what he gave her.

This isn't. She has brought Saul in but it doesn't feel connected to the overall story.  Maybe it will pay off eventually but right now, I feel lost.

Gilligan isn't part of the day-to-day of the show any longer.  While the show is still enjoyable to me and well constructed, I do think there's a marked difference in character development compared to the first few seasons when he was in the writers room.

It is a part of the show but that doesn't mean it's always done well.  Sometimes it really is.  And sometimes it isn't.

THIS! Love this entire post.

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

I'm still looking for the reason why Kim gives a damn about Ackers, beyond a generic dislike of evictions, due to childhood experiences, especially since Ackers (who really is just a run of the mill A-hole) tossed that experience back in her face. Or, failing that, some insight as to why she hates Kevin (who, all in all, has been pretty decent to her) so much that she would take risky, unethical, action to harm Mesa Verde. "I love Jimmy" just doesn't work here, because you can love Jimmy with all your heart, and still have no motivation to hook him up with Ackers the A-hole. Really hope the arc has a payoff in terms of illuminating character.

Lots of great points above as to why Kim's motivations are lacking or confusing to some viewers.

[peeayebee]

4 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

I laughed out loud when I saw the spray-painted image of Jesus. 

Me, too! And Jimmy did a pretty good job.

2 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

I'm wondering about Kim's showdown in the public part of the firm with Rich.  It looked like she was working off emotion, didn't plan it, but it was out of character and so unprofessional so I have to wonder. I don't know what Rich meant by "have it your way" if that is what he said.  I think he can't keep her on the case or maybe even at Schweikart so I'll be interested in his next move. 

I'm not quite sure about this scene either. It looked like Kim wanted the argument to be public. Was it to show Rich that she wasn't afraid of him? that he can't intimidate her? that she's in control? that she's strong? I can't really pinpoint it.

However, I don't think her other actions wrt getting a win for Acker are confusing. I think one of the things at play here is the thrill of pulling a con. Everything Jimmy was doing seemed to be working. I think Kim was sure they were "winning." But then Kevin has to be a stubborn SOB (in Kim's view) and refuse to change course. Kim doesn't want to lose. She has committed to winning, to pulling one over on Kevin.

And the idea that Kevin is clean as a whistle probably bothers her. She wants him to have a flaw in order to justify her actions, imo.

And then, of course, there's that last conversation with Acker where she shared a personal and painful story with him in order to bond and to show that she isn't an unfeeling snake of a lawyer, but he rejects that. He accuses her of lying, which I'm sure she wasn't, and says she's just working for The Man. This wounded her and pissed her off. But as she thought about it, she decided to work for The Little Guy, like with the pro bono work. She tried to do it the legal way, by finding other property that Mesa Verde could use instead, but when that didn't work, she enlists Jimmy to do the dirty work. Maybe that is her attempt to keep her distance from any illegality. 

But she's all in. She said she wants to fix this. She'll do it any way she can.

[Ohwell]

Whatever her motivations are, I want to see that ponytail in jail.

[Irlandesa]

45 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

I think Rich knew Kim was pulling a fast one from the start, but was waiting to see if the situation would sort itself out.  When it didn't, he stepped in and tried to get Kevin to go with the alternate site.  When that didn't work, he gave Kim indirect instructions to recuse herself, and when she didn't take the hint he was more forthright.  Rich is circumspect and careful in his actions, but I think he will continue to ramp up his response and do what is needed to protect his firm.  He did a tactical retreat in this episode, but there's always next week.  I'll be surprised if Kim is still at S&C when the season's over. 

Yeah.  Rich is smart but he is in a delicate position with the client.  She technically did disclose her relationship to Jimmy.  If Kim refuses to be pushed aside, then the firm is exposed.  If Rich decides he has to separate Kim from MV, he has to balance convincing them that she's not to be trusted without making them look like idiots for trusting her up until now.

[Adiba]

9 minutes ago, Ohwell said:

Whatever her motivations are, I want to see that ponytail in jail.

Her ponytail doesn’t bother me, but I do want some backstory as to why she is willing to risk her job and reputation by getting in the middle of a pissing contest between two stubborn people.

Kim went to law school and worked for HHM without getting herself into any major trouble (that we know of). She got Mesa Verde as a client and went out of her way to get herself hired at the new firm. Now she’s willing to throw it all away for a grumpy old man (who, btw, is wrong)? As a viewer, I want to know why— what is her motivation? This is more than a cheap thrill. 

[BetyBee]

What was Jimmy smashing in the gym bag in the kitchen? It seemed like it might be the bowling balls, but surely he didn't retrieve them from Howard's property?

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, peeayebee said:

However, I don't think her other actions wrt getting a win for Acker are confusing. I think one of the things at play here is the thrill of pulling a con. Everything Jimmy was doing seemed to be working. I think Kim was sure they were "winning." But then Kevin has to be a stubborn SOB (in Kim's view) and refuse to change course. Kim doesn't want to lose. She has committed to winning, to pulling one over on Kevin.

It's a funny hill she's picked to die on.  She's as stubborn as both Acker and Kevin here, but all that Jimmy's stupid tricks were ever going to do was delay because there is no legal ground for Acker to stand on.  She already proposed the alternate plan once, he rejected it, nothing has changed legally, the sheriff is coming to evict.  All those tricks were too clever by half.  She's risking her career for . . . what?

[Bryce Lynch]

26 minutes ago, BetyBee said:

What was Jimmy smashing in the gym bag in the kitchen? It seemed like it might be the bowling balls, but surely he didn't retrieve them from Howard's property?

I think it was ceramics that he and Acker buried near Acker's house and were trying to pass off as Native American relics.

 

[JudyObscure]

1 hour ago, peeayebee said:

It looked like Kim wanted the argument to be public. Was it to show Rich that she wasn't afraid of him? that he can't intimidate her? that she's in control? that she's strong? I can't really pinpoint it.

I thought she wanted it to be public, too, and the way she rolled her eyes to the side to make sure the witnesses were paying attention makes me wonder if she chased Richard into the hall for some future  plan or just to make sure Richard would let her stay on the case just to end the public embarrassment.

Why are you doing this  Kim?  I echo all the people who want more explanation of why she wants to defend a nasty old guy who probably spent his life gloating through housing divisions, telling his downtrodden wife to look at all the suckers who paid full price for their property because they weren't smart enough to lease their land like he did. And from all we've seen Kevin is a perfectly nice man.  He's not only squeaky clean from Mr. X's point of view he seems to champion women more than most men of his generation and he's personally been Kim's biggest cheerleader.

Whatever. I'm loving this Kim-centric season even if I am confused and her good ol' boy imitation was worth the whole episode.

 

Edited March 17, 2020 by JudyObscure

[iMonrey]

Quote

Whatever her motivations are, I want to see that ponytail in jail.

I am mesmerized by Kim's perfectly curled ponytail.

[Lonesome Rhodes]

Gilligan frequently spoke of how precious Rhea, and Kim, were to him.  He wasn't really sure where Kim/Giselle would land.  He knew only that he would draw it out much further than he had ever anticipated.  That he has.

It is super easy for me to buy that Kim simply loves the thrill of the con, like Jimmy, did.  Sure, she has a significant streak of righteousness within her.  She is a realist and she still desperately wants to believe in good.  In other words, she is a complex human.  Aren't we all.

Ultimately, we all choose which will be the dominant philosophy by which we live.  Most everyone I have known lives out a multi-faceted life.  I do.  Kim appears to have made the call that fulfillment requires risk.  Safety in service to creature comforts is not what drives her.  Have you ever known anyone like this?  I sure have.

I am intensely curious to see if Gilligan is determined to have an open-ended arc for Kim or if he will opt for a bad-breaking finality.  The trend is obvious.  Happily, this is no guarantee of outcome.   

[gallimaufry]

I think this was the season's best episode although the season is still the weakest so far (as was S4 before it -- all from a very high bar, admittedly) and it's painful to watch Kim and Jimmy self-destruct in a way it just never was with Walt somehow.

I was glad to have a good amount of Mike.  Given the title, I really wanted some Gus backstory so I was surprised he only featured at the end.  I really want to see the rest of this conversation.  Gus' character on BCS feels very underdeveloped -- I rewatched some of his BB episodes recently and I forgot how rich he was and how many questions there were about him.  This had lots of great Mike moments but I didn't feel we dug into his character at all.  I wanted to learn something new about Gus and Max but... guess not.

Howard continues his one-scene wonder trend.  I really want more of Howard and I find it fascinating how Jimmy reacts to Howard.  It's a very different reaction than we've seen with anything else.

Glad to see Nacho and Lalo taking another episode off -- that plot came on way too strong at the start of the season and I'm now excited for when they do fold back in.

Kim though... oh man.  I agree with the sentiments above that we need to know what's behind this.  Are we supposed to feel that Kim is getting revenge on Kevin, by proxy, as the kind of people that forced her out of her home as a child?  I mean, it's all very obscure.  I really think they need to just get to it with Kim.  I liked Rich calling her on her shit.  I kind of enjoyed her impression of Kevin but I also find it so strange... how hard she worked to land Mesa Verde, the chance Kevin gave her... I just can't see he's done anything to deserve this kind of reaction.  The flaws he has are flaws that were always there and she readily accepted to start with.  I also enjoyed Kim seeing a flavour of Jimmy's off-colour contacts.  Still although I liked the PI guy (great reuse of a minor character) I really wish we'd got a Mike/Kim scene.

But the glory of the episode is the classic Saul shenanigans with Acker.  Hilarious stuff and the kind of light-hearted mischief that's been missing from the show for a very long time, "Coushatta" notwithstanding.

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, JudyObscure said:

3 hours ago, peeayebee said:

It looked like Kim wanted the argument to be public. Was it to show Rich that she wasn't afraid of him? that he can't intimidate her? that she's in control? that she's strong? I can't really pinpoint it.

I thought she wanted it to be public, too, and the way she rolled her eyes to the side to make sure the witnesses were paying attention makes me wonder if she chased Richard into the hall for some future  plan or just to make sure Richard would let her stay on the case just to end the public embarrassment.

Definitely she made it public on purpose, and I trust we will find out in the next episode what part the public argument played in this latest Bonnie-and-Clyde scheme.

 

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

I am mesmerized by Kim's perfectly curled ponytail.

As am I! If I was at least 15 years younger and not retired, I would be wearing a ponytail like that to work now, in honor of Kim's.

Edited March 17, 2020 by shapeshifter

[PeterPirate]

It occurs to me that none of Jimmy's stunts, except for the address switch, would have kept Mesa Verde from enforcing the eviction notice.  

We saw the impact of Chuck on Jimmy when they were adults.  But Chuck didn't make Jimmy steal from their parents before he was 10, nor did he make Jimmy take a crap into someone else's car.  For me, taking Kim's story of her childhood as more or less true is enough for me to explain why she would be attracted to someone like Jimmy who knew how to skirt the rules.  There's nothing besides childhood poverty to explain why Bonnie Parker decided to go on a murderous rampage with Clyde Barrow.  

12 minutes ago, gallimaufry said:

Kim though... oh man.  I agree with the sentiments above that we need to know what's behind this.  Are we supposed to feel that Kim is getting revenge on Kevin, by proxy, as the kind of people that forced her out of her home as a child?  I mean, it's all very obscure.  I really think they need to just get to it with Kim.  I liked Rich calling her on her shit.  I kind of enjoyed her impression of Kevin but I also find it so strange... how hard she worked to land Mesa Verde, the chance Kevin gave her... I just can't see he's done anything to deserve this kind of reaction.  The flaws he has are flaws that were always there and she readily accepted to start with.  I also enjoyed Kim seeing a flavour of Jimmy's off-colour contacts.  Still although I liked the PI guy (great reuse of a minor character) I really wish we'd got a Mike/Kim scene.

I think the one change is that Kevin insisted that she do the dirty work.  Last season, when he wanted to expand one branch, he deferred to Kim and Paige that it was too late to change the plans.  Given that freedom, she took it upon herself to make things happen.  This time around he's put Kim under his thumb, and she's rebelling.  

Edited March 17, 2020 by PeterPirate

[TVFan17]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I am mesmerized by Kim's perfectly curled ponytail.

It's very 'Cindy Brady'-ish (if Cindy wore a ponytail instead of her signature pigtails).

Edited March 17, 2020 by TVFan17

[Quilt Fairy]

15 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Love the scene of Jimmy and Kim "acting out" the meeting between Kim and Kevin.

On the plus side, I will say that Jimmy and Kim's relationship is one of the most natural and realistic I've ever seen on TV. 

[Ailianna]

1 hour ago, gallimaufry said:

  I wanted to learn something new about Gus and Max but... guess not.

I liked knowing that Gus did positive things in memory of Max, as well as his horribly destructive revenge in memory of Max.  It's a bit of humanization, to me, that he is ensuring that some few others will have a decent life, with Max's memorial part of their daily lives.

[nodorothyparker]

4 hours ago, gallimaufry said:

I kind of enjoyed her impression of Kevin but I also find it so strange... how hard she worked to land Mesa Verde, the chance Kevin gave her... I just can't see he's done anything to deserve this kind of reaction.  The flaws he has are flaws that were always there and she readily accepted to start with. 

I agree with everyone that I'd really like to get something ... anything more at this point out of Kim's backstory to help explain this beyond the blue toes and one step ahead of the landlord yarn she told Acker that I still think was more or less true.  But maybe that's supposed to be enough.  I don't think it really matters to Kim that he's a cantankerous old asshole or that legally he's not in the right.  It's the fact that this has been his home for 40 years and it matters enough to him to make this much of a fuss to fight for it.

If I'm hazarding a guess, it's that Kevin isn't thinking of Acker at all as a person but as an impediment for her to handle that has Kim so riled.  He's now twice been pitched the alternative property that would equally meet Mesa Verde's needs while avoiding this messiness and both times he's dug in his heels that no, it has to be this one for seemingly no other reason than because he can.  In that, Kevin embodies everything indifferently evil she likes to think she's been fighting against in her pro bono work.

[DangerousMinds]

12 hours ago, Blakeston said:

When that kind of mindset is portrayed in a fictional character, I think the writers should give the audience some insight as to what's leading the character to think and act that way.

In Kim's case, we've always known she takes risks, but she's never done anything half as risky as this. And she's taking this huge risk on behalf of a repulsive person (Acker) who she knows is in the wrong. And she's never shown animosity toward Kevin in the past.

For her recklessness to suddenly escalate like this, it would be nice to know what's behind it. The only clues we've been given are that Acker seemingly got under her skin by saying that she works for "the man," and that speech she gave about her childhood. Neither are good enough explanations, IMO. I'm hoping there's something better coming.

Imo Kevin showed himself as particularly repulsive when presented with a way out of all this nonsense, to simply use the other land (that’s still available and that wouldn’t lose them any money) , he chose to dig his heels in just to spite an old man who wants to stay in his home of 50 years. Maybe Kim had some contempt for that. 

[Ohwell]

Kevin might be a jerk about this issue but it is still his right to want to build the call center on that land.  The old coot needs to respect the law(s).

[Irlandesa]

14 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

I agree with everyone that I'd really like to get something ... anything more at this point out of Kim's backstory to help explain this beyond the blue toes and one step ahead of the landlord yarn she told Acker that I still think was more or less true.  But maybe that's supposed to be enough.

Maybe.  But the short explanation not really anchored in much history we've seen from Kim makes it feel like cheap exposition. 

 

[Milburn Stone]

12 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

I'm wondering about Kim's showdown in the public part of the firm with Rich.  It looked like she was working off emotion, didn't plan it, but it was out of character and so unprofessional so I have to wonder. I don't know what Rich meant by "have it your way" if that is what he said.  I think he can't keep her on the case or maybe even at Schweikart so I'll be interested in his next move. 

There was zero doubt in my mind that she was under perfect control and was playing the "indignantly offended" act to convince him (and all onlookers) that his suspicions were wrong. And to back him into a blackmail-able corner when his suspicions turn out to be right. She dared him to say his accusation out loud; he was afraid to take the dare; and by shrinking back, he'll be party to any malfeasance, should any become known. He'll have to cover it up.

Regarding Kim's motivation to risk it all, the only thing I can come up with is the almost sexual thrill she gets from conning people of privilege, which we saw back in that posh bar in Season 1 I think. That's just a part of her that she can't expunge.

Edited March 18, 2020 by Milburn Stone

[LittleIggy]

14 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Walter White was a drug kingpin and mass murderer, but they still had  me rooting for him.

Jesse Pinkman was a drug dealer, murderer, drug addict and a guy, who will making $500K peremonth, tried to make a few extra bucks by stealing meth from his boss, and selling it to addicts...a 12 Step meetings.   I still cared about him.

Fring was a villain, but I was thrilled when he took out Eladio and the cartel, and was a little sad when Walt killed him.

Tio Hector Salamanca killed Gus Fring. Blowed him up good! Blowed him up real good!

[qtpye]

Some interesting observations

[ShadowFacts]

8 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

There was zero doubt in my mind that she was under perfect control and was playing the "indignantly offended" act to convince him (and all onlookers) that his suspicions were wrong. And to back him into a blackmail-able corner when his suspicions turn out to be right. She dared him to say his accusation out loud; he was afraid to take the dare; and by shrinking back, he'll be party to any malfeasance, should any become known. He'll have to cover it up.

Regarding Kim's motivation to risk it all, the only thing I can come up with is the almost sexual thrill she gets from conning people of privilege, which we saw back in that posh bar in Season 1 I think. That's just a part of her that she can't expunge.

That kind of public scene from someone so professional can also look like she doth protest too much.  I am unsure what Rich meant by have it your way (I can't remember what he exactly said).  Was he shrinking away, or ending the public drama and the next thing she knows her obstinance has her out of a job?  This could be a parting of the ways as easily as a Kim victory.  You never know where they're going with these characters.  Maybe Howard brings her back to HHM.

I agree about Kim's thrill-seeking behavior, and the sexual undertone.  She has been buttoned up for the first several seasons, almost seemed like just roomies with Jimmy, and now they're showing us two or three times this season that she gets turned on by their exploits.

 

[Pike Ludwell]

Schweikart can't prove his concerns about Kim yet. The most he could say is he's "just not buying it". So, when she angrily confronted him in front of everyone he couldn't exactly accuse her of something he has no direct proof of. He could only ask her to come into his office and talk quietly. When she refused, and continues making a scene, he tells her "If that's the way you want it." Meaning he's not giving up on this. I suspect he'll meet with Mesa Verde and carefully discuss the Kim situation. Maybe plant seeds in Kevin's head and have Kevin ask Schweikart for  a different attorney. Then Schweikart fires Kim, for at the very least unprofessional conduct, creating a scene in the office, and humiliating him in front of everybody. At least I hope it plays out with Schweikart winning and Kim losing.

Edited March 18, 2020 by Pike Ludwell

[nodorothyparker]

58 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

I agree about Kim's thrill-seeking behavior, and the sexual undertone.  She has been buttoned up for the first several seasons, almost seemed like just roomies with Jimmy, and now they're showing us two or three times this season that she gets turned on by their exploits.

They showed us that a couple of times last season too.  I remember realizing around the point of the Coushetta scam that for all of Chuck's and to a lesser degree Howard's concerns that Jimmy would "ruin" Kim, that she was actually the more sexually aggressive of the two in driving that relationship.  We saw her clearly turned on when they successfully pulled that one off.

[Bryce Lynch]

5 hours ago, qtpye said:

Some interesting observations

He has some interesting insights, but I think he was too tough on Kim and way too easy on Saul.

I think he shares the common wrong idea that hypocrisy is the greatest of all sins.  The fact the Saul is more comfortable being a scumbag and more self aware about it than Kim, makes him a worse person, not a better one.

He does make good points about Kim being a big influence on Jimmy.  I think just about the only thing restraining Jimmy from going full "chimp with a machine gun, was his desire to be respected by Kim and previously, by Chuck.  

With Kim getting off on pulling stupid scams with Jimmy/Saul, she has gone from being a good influence on him, to a bad one.   

[qtpye]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

He has some interesting insights, but I think he was too tough on Kim and way too easy on Saul.

I think he shares the common wrong idea that hypocrisy is the greatest of all sins.  The fact the Saul is more comfortable being a scumbag and more self aware about it than Kim, makes him a worse person, not a better one.

He does make good points about Kim being a big influence on Jimmy.  I think just about the only thing restraining Jimmy from going full "chimp with a machine gun, was his desire to be respected by Kim and previously, by Chuck.  

With Kim getting off on pulling stupid scams with Jimmy/Saul, she has gone from being a good influence on him, to a bad one.   

So true. I guess I had always been under the opinion that Jimmy was so damn lucky to have a woman like Kim in his life that it never occurred to me that she would become the problem.

i do remember when he he pulled of the whole Kettlemen thing just for her.

Does anyone else think it was stupid for Kim to show Mr. X her face? 

[PeterPirate]

Kim was noticeably perturbed in her office, both just before and just after her confrontation with Rich in the common area.  If she was acting, the show is pulling a big fake-out on us. 

One thing I've been thinking about is the show has always let us know when a character was lying to someone else.  It's just us suspicious viewers who have to question everything.  

***

That video is pretty accurate.  One thing I would add is that from the start of the show, it's been Jimmy who has pursued Kim, to the extent that Kim is the reason Jimmy decided to go to law school.  Jimmy is the Emperor and Kim is Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader, not the other way around.  Mileage will vary about which character is ultimately more reprehensible.  

Another thing I would add is that Kim took responsibility for her part in Jimmy's commercial for Davis & Main, and accepted her banishment to the Cornfield.  That was something Jimmy could not understand.  

I take strong exception to the guy's final contention that Jimmy would be better off without Kim.  Kim has worked to pull Jimmy's chestnuts from the fire more than once.  And frankly, I am bothered by this guy's willingness to use such strong, judgmental  language about Kim, but not Jimmy.  They are the Sith--always there are two. 

Edited March 18, 2020 by PeterPirate

[shapeshifter]

20 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

Kim was noticeably perturbed in her office, both just before and just after her confrontation with Rich in the common area.  If she was acting, the show is pulling a big fake-out on us. 

One thing I've been thinking about is the show has always let us know when a character was lying to someone else.  It's just us suspicious viewers who have to question everything.  

***

That video is pretty accurate

Meh, I don’t agree with Geoffrey Ciani’s interpretation of Kim’s character in his “review” video. And I feel free to disagree with him because (a) he’s not affiliated with the show, and because (b) he repeatedly refers to her as a “bitch,” which is not, IMO, a characterization of a woman that we have seen from Vince Gilligan, except perhaps at times with Skylar —whose husband arguably behaved in ways to bring out the B-like attitude in her. 
 

And I do think it is obvious to the audience that Kim is “acting” when she is publicly ranting at her boss, simply because she is doing it in public.  Toward what end her performance is driving, we don’t yet know, but stay tuned, BCS amigos. 😉

</end_shapeshifter_opinion>

[Bannon]

15 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

Maybe.  But the short explanation not really anchored in much history we've seen from Kim makes it feel like cheap exposition. 

 

Yeah, compared to how carefully the psychology of Jimmy, Chuck, Mike, and even Gus (in BB) has been constructed, what has been done with Kim's seems really slipshod, if what we have seen so far is all that is done. The sexual thrill of the con might be an interesting angle, but it just doesn't seem quite right in this context; perhaps due to the age of the characters. I hope this gets fixed somehow.

[Bannon]

39 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

Kim was noticeably perturbed in her office, both just before and just after her confrontation with Rich in the common area.  If she was acting, the show is pulling a big fake-out on us. 

One thing I've been thinking about is the show has always let us know when a character was lying to someone else.  It's just us suspicious viewers who have to question everything.  

***

That video is pretty accurate.  One thing I would add is that from the start of the show, it's been Jimmy who has pursued Kim, to the extent that Kim is the reason Jimmy decided to go to law school.  Jimmy is the Emperor and Kim is Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader, not the other way around.  Mileage will vary about which character is ultimately more reprehensible.  

Another thing I would add is that Kim took responsibility for her part in Jimmy's commercial for Davis & Main, and accepted her banishment to the Cornfield.  That was something Jimmy could not understand.  

I take strong exception to the guy's final contention that Jimmy would be better off without Kim.  Kim has worked to pull Jimmy's chestnuts from the fire more than once.  And frankly, I am bothered by this guy's willingness to use such strong, judgmental  language about Kim, but not Jimmy.  They are the Sith--always there are two. 

Given we know that Saul eventually gets to a place where he proposes having people murdered as problem solving technique, it's gonna be pretty hard for Kim to be worse than him. I agree with Bryce above; the idea that hypocrisy is among the worst of sins is really off-base.  Carmela Soprano and Skyler White were not nearly as awful their husbands, even if some fans of those shows rooted hard for those husbands, while hurling some really strange (imho) invective at the wives. I can't figure people out sometimes.

[Lonesome Rhodes]

Excellent video.  

If we are comparing culpability and disordered thinking, Kim is worse than Saul.  

Saul is about selfish outcomes.  Kim is about the process.  The more twisted, the greater the satisfaction and thrill.  Saul just wants to get through the task at hand with minimal damage.

This was on display in the scene where Saul seemingly went completely against his typical MO of figuring out a path to a win and instead strongly urged a total surrender.  Kim would not give up the ghost.  To what end?  To save a not-great guy like Acker?  To make Kevin pay for acting legally?  Then she risks her entire professional career when Rich calls her out.  She does. Not. Care.  This is irrationality.  This is a disordered mind.

It's one thing to be, say, an MMA fighter who wants to be a champion and/or make bank.  It's quite another to actually enjoy the pain involved.

[Mezzaluna]

On 3/17/2020 at 10:48 AM, scenario said:

I agree that there should be more backstory about Kim. My head cannon is that she has a similar back story to Jimmy and that's why she's attracted to him. Two peas in a pod. 

 

Back when Kim first interviewed at Mesa Verde, the interviewer asked her about herself, and she was short on details. Ever since, I have maintained that Kim had an effed-up childhood and she's hiding something big, maybe even her real identity. perhaps she was even as much a grifter as Jimmy.

[Bannon]

1 minute ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

Excellent video.  

If we are comparing culpability and disordered thinking, Kim is worse than Saul.  

Saul is about selfish outcomes.  Kim is about the process.  The more twisted, the greater the satisfaction and thrill.  Saul just wants to get through the task at hand with minimal damage.

This was on display in the scene where Saul seemingly went completely against his typical MO of figuring out a path to a win and instead strongly urged a total surrender.  Kim would not give up the ghost.  To what end?  To save a not-great guy like Acker?  To make Kevin pay for acting legally?  Then she risks her entire professional career when Rich calls her out.  She does. Not. Care.  This is irrationality.  This is a disordered mind.

It's one thing to be, say, an MMA fighter who wants to be a champion and/or make bank.  It's quite another to actually enjoy the pain involved.

This is why I really hope the writers give us more, because otherwise they are headed in the direction of the laziest habit in heavily serialized drama; having characters be stupid/have a disordered mind when convenient, for purposes of plot advancement. Now, even television writing at it's peak cannot avoid this completely: Gus and Mike got stupid and let Jesse Pinkman live, because the writers were shocked to learn that the character was hugely popular with the audience (which is real tribute to Aaron Paul). If we don't get more about Kim, however, I will see that as an unforced error in writing, which would be unfortunate.

[qtpye]

4 minutes ago, Mezzaluna said:

Back when Kim first interviewed at Mesa Verde, the interviewer asked her about herself, and she was short on details. Ever since, I have maintained that Kim had an effed-up childhood and she's hiding something big, maybe even her real identity. perhaps she was even as much a grifter as Jimmy.

Maybe Kim is a Traveler?
 

They are a group of Irish Gypsies, that settled in America, who are known for having child brides and conning the elderly.

[PeterPirate]

45 minutes ago, Bannon said:

This is why I really hope the writers give us more, because otherwise they are headed in the direction of the laziest habit in heavily serialized drama; having characters be stupid/have a disordered mind when convenient, for purposes of plot advancement. Now, even television writing at it's peak cannot avoid this completely: Gus and Mike got stupid and let Jesse Pinkman live, because the writers were shocked to learn that the character was hugely popular with the audience (which is real tribute to Aaron Paul). If we don't get more about Kim, however, I will see that as an unforced error in writing, which would be unfortunate.

As the story was presented, Gus couldn't kill Jesse because Walt insisted he would stop working for Gus.  I didn't watch BB when it aired and I avoided the online discussions.  I wonder if people at the time thought 1) Walt's willingness to stand up to Gus over Jesse was a plot device to keep Aaron Paul on the show; and 2) if it was bad writing. 

[Bannon]

17 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

As the story was presented, Gus couldn't kill Jesse because Walt insisted he would stop working for Gus.  I didn't watch BB when it aired and I avoided the online discussions.  I wonder if people at the time thought 1) Walt's willingness to stand up to Gus over Jesse was a plot device to keep Aaron Paul on the show; and 2) if it was bad writing. 

Yes, but this was happening at a time when Jesse was shooting up and crashing in drug houses, and Gus had Mike watching Jesse do it, prior to Mike developing some protective feelings for Jesse. The easiest thing in the world would have been for Jesse to have an "accidental" od.