S05.E04: Namaste

[Bannon]

4 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

I took Fring's behavior as being his attempt at containment of rage -- he knew the money was going to be confiscated, and that he would be in trouble with the cartel.  And he sure doesn't want Lalo getting the upper hand.  I don't think he was thinking about his employee at all. 

Yeah, Fring was just being a passive aggressive jerk. He looks at the fryer with displeasure, and tells Lyle condescendingly that he may go, and people pleaser Lyle responds by offering to redouble the effort, well past the point of meaningful gain, and then Fring can still only acknowledge the work as acceptable! I can guarantee that there are no cleaner fryers in the Southwest United States!

[Eulipian 5k]

1 hour ago, Ohwell said:

I don't think Lyle was in BB

Lyle IIRC was the PH worker who commented when the Salamancas, incl Hector, came to the Pollos Hermanos to speak to Gus. Wasn't that in Breaking Bad? That's when Gus  had to give a speech to the workers; I think they all got the day off. Back then people were worried Lyle was due for a trip to Belize, lol.

[nodorothyparker]

41 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

But Howard took blame on himself for Chuck's suicide and confessed his guilt to Jimmy. This was at a time when Jimmy knew it was his own actions that pushed him to desperation. Namaste was Howard's attempt to reconcile all of this. He could have blamed Jimmy and his well known feud as the cause for Chuck's death.

Jimmy tipping off the malpractice insurance about Chuck isn't public knowledge.  Nobody knows that but Jimmy.  IIRC, at the time they all thought it probably had to do with his meltdown at the Mesa Verde hearing.  And there's a fair argument to be made that while Jimmy loaded the gun, Howard is the one who pulled the trigger in forcing Chuck out of HHM.  I don't doubt that Jimmy intended to cause Chuck some grief in ratting him out, but he had no way of knowing this would finally be the time Howard stood up to Chuck or that the consequences of it would be so dire.

Howard was falling apart blaming himself after the fire.  The only thing Jimmy did was let him and basically shut down any feelings he had about Chuck or his part in Chuck's death.  In basically offering to handwave away all the terrible things that happened as a result of the Chuck-Jimmy feud, Howard made himself a convenient target because he's still here while Chuck isn't.

[Lonesome Rhodes]

Fring would know that an excellent way to deal with great anxiety is to engage in a physical workout.  That we saw him dealing with the loss of the cash and the new interest from the feds was interesting.  Was he actually feeling a bit overwhelmed?  The Great Gustavo Fring?  Fun question.  Then again, the tactician was on display as he figured out how to avoid having his man captured.  For me, Occam's Razor suggests that if Gus were merely giving into outsized emotional stress, he would have found a way to handle it alone, much as a wounded animal seeks to not show its weakness.  The threat Lalo presents to Gus is very real and quite complex.  Fring would have assessed, imo, that his enemy would be capable of recklessness and it would be right in character for him to try to frame Gus.

With each passing, and precious ep, the longer Kim consciously chooses to be with Saul. the more difficult it will be to buy a plot where she fully separates voluntarily.  G/G are boxing themselves (Kim) in, imo.

On the other side of the coin, I have to give G/G props for having the integrity to present our intrepid heroes in the current unflattering and rapidly darkening light.  With the possible exception of Howard, there is no significant adult character who is good.  For what and whom are the viewers to root?  It is no small feat to present nihilism and keep an audience.

 

 

 

[Irlandesa]

3 hours ago, qtpye said:

I love Gillian and the character of Kim. However, I’m kind of sick of the trope that all lawyers who help the little guys are saviors and those who work for big corporations are evil. Not all little guys deserve to be saved and corporations can provide jobs and economic prosperity.

Thank you for saying this!  I wanted to say something last week about the show leaning into the cliche of "fighting for the underdog" is the only kind of lawyering lawyers would want to do.  Some maybe but a lot do get enjoyment out of basic contract or corporate law.  Gilligan has actually stepped back from the show for the most part and as much as I still enjoy it, I do wonder if his influence is missed with decisions like these.   He was still there when the show decided to make a story about the fight over a corporate client.

They made so much drama out of a typo.   I don't know if Gould would even think of going that small.

Howard has always seemed to appreciate Jimmy’s hustle while Jimmy has always despised Howard. 

For some reason I can't quote the above on my phone.  Anyway, I don't know if Jimmy has always despised Howard.   I think he goes back and forth.  I think he did like him when Howard was suffering but now is angry at him for actually pulling himself out of the spiral.

One thing I loved but forgot to mention until I saw it in Alan Sepinwall's review was everything related to Hank and Gomie.  Their banter was great but I especially loved Hank realizing what they got was probably intentionally small time even though it came with a lot of money.  But then he turned on the bluster to rah rah the troops even with his sense that it wasn't a fully successful operation. 

[Bannon]

11 minutes ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

Fring would know that an excellent way to deal with great anxiety is to engage in a physical workout.  That we saw him dealing with the loss of the cash and the new interest from the feds was interesting.  Was he actually feeling a bit overwhelmed?  The Great Gustavo Fring?  Fun question.  Then again, the tactician was on display as he figured out how to avoid having his man captured.  For me, Occam's Razor suggests that if Gus were merely giving into outsized emotional stress, he would have found a way to handle it alone, much as a wounded animal seeks to not show its weakness.  The threat Lalo presents to Gus is very real and quite complex.  Fring would have assessed, imo, that his enemy would be capable of recklessness and it would be right in character for him to try to frame Gus.

With each passing, and precious ep, the longer Kim consciously chooses to be with Saul. the more difficult it will be to buy a plot where she fully separates voluntarily.  G/G are boxing themselves (Kim) in, imo.

On the other side of the coin, I have to give G/G props for having the integrity to present our intrepid heroes in the current unflattering and rapidly darkening light.  With the possible exception of Howard, there is no significant adult character who is good.  For what and whom are the viewers to root?  It is no small feat to present nihilism and keep an audience.

 

 

 

Oh, absolutely. The challenge of telling  this story was always going to be how inevitably dark it is, and to their credit, they haven't tried to avoid it. However, I do agree with the idea that if Kim does choose self destruction, we need greater insight as to why she makes that choice. Her story to Ackers about her childhood (which I thought absolutely sincere) offers some hints, but that isn't enough for so central a character.

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

So obviously they decided that *this* situation is what would bring this out in Kim and I'm hoping there's some character reveal that will explain that.

Maybe there will be, or maybe it is enough that she was turned out of her homes as a child and as a result just doesn't like evicting people even if it's perfectly legal and the person has been beyond verbally abusive to her.  Up until now she's been doing dry regulatory work, and it could just be that bringing the hammer down on people isn't her thing because it was brought down on her a lot in her past.  If they're going to start showing flashbacks to her past it should be sooner than later. 

[Eulipian 5k]

I too had assumed Gus was setting up an alibi, but, indeed, why?

It now seems Gus was just being Gus. He had to know, 1) if the DEA took the bait, and, 2) if his guys avoided arrest. So he would have to wait by his burner phone. Rather than go home, he remained at work , and as anyone knows, if the boss is stuck at work after hours with something on his mind... he will exert authority on whomever is around. Especially if he is bugged by something he's not in control of.  He 's in total control of Lyle, but not Lalo or the DEA.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

5 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

If Gus did use poor Lyle as an alibi against a frame-up by Lalo with the Feds, what are the odds that poor Lyle will end up dead, perhaps in a culvert?

 

2 hours ago, Tighthead said:

I think Fring was creating an alibi for certain, but the method seemed out of character, 

What would the alibi be for?  That he wasn't the guy scurrying through the culvert?  Why would anyone think that he was?

Edited March 10, 2020 by ItCouldBeWorse

[Lonesome Rhodes]

4 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

 

What would the alibi be for?  That he wasn't the guy scurrying through the culvert?  Why would anyone think that he was?

Because Lalo would use his new connection with Hank and Gomez to put out the word that he was.

If one thinks about it, many moves are made which never result in any particular significance.  A very great problem with being a bigtime mobster is the unceasing need to engage in precautions.  One must always be thinking ahead and taking measures which are taxing and often, wasteful.

Some in this thread have theorized that Lalo had Mike tailed in the hopes of something useful developing.  Boy, has it, if true.  This would be an example of the allocation of resources based on reason, not specific data.  Gus did not survive Chilean machinations and rise to his position in the cartel by merrily rolling along responding to only obvious threats.  He anticipated issues others may have missed.  He may have even created a few.  😉

 

[Dev F]

20 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

Thank you for saying this!  I wanted to say something last week about the show leaning into the cliche of "fighting for the underdog" is the only kind of lawyering lawyers would want to do.  Some maybe but a lot do get enjoyment out of basic contract or corporate law.

That's true, but the show has been pretty clear that Kim is not one of those lawyers. Indeed, a large part of her arc last year was realizing that she isn't, and trying to adjust her life to find a more rewarding outlet. Judge Neelix basically calls her on it in their first conversation -- he knows she's hanging out in his courtroom in the hopes that he'll hook her up with a blameless underdog she can defend against the heartless system.

And Kim takes his point that it would be naive to hope for something so clear-cut, but that doesn't stop her from trolling for criminal defense work. And that's because, it seems to me, she knows that law isn't fair by default but still thinks it can be -- that by really hunkering down and working her butt off, she can make it work for the people who need it most.

And her storyline with Mr. Acker this season seems to be getting at why she so desperately needs that to be true: because she sees herself as someone who clawed her way out from under the unfairness of the system, and she hates that idea that she's now using her considerable legal powers to keep other unfortunate folks from doing the same. Just as Jimmy rejects Howard's gesture of namaste, Kim rejects the idea that she can just sit back and let the system crush these people. She needs to be the one to sweep up the broken glass of their lives.

Which reminds me: I have a theory about what Kim has planned by dragging Jimmy into the Acker situation, but it's based on the preview scene for next week that AMC posted, so there may be vague spoilers:

Spoiler

In the preview scene, Kim makes a big deal to Paige and Kevin about the fact that Acker's new lawyer is Jimmy. I wonder if she's trying to engineer a situation where Mesa Verde will need to move the call center to the alternate site or she'll have to recuse herself.

 

37 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

One thing I loved but forgot to mention until I saw it in Alan Sepinwall's review was everything related to Hank and Gomie.  Their banter was great but I especially loved Hank realizing what they got was probably intentionally small time even though it came with a lot of money.  But then he turned on the bluster to rah rah the troops even with his sense that it wasn't a fully successful operation. 

Yeah, in that way Hank is sort of offering a counterpoint to the main characters' arc: they're actively spurning peace of mind, while he's swallowing his own discontent to reassure his men that all is well.

[ShadowFacts]

8 minutes ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

Because Lalo would use his new connection with Hank and Gomez to put out the word that he was.

Lalo could do that at any time, without the whole Crazy 8/Saul scheming.  But he won't, he wants the cartel to be displeased with the disruption in cash flow from the great producer, Gus.  Gus is valuable, Lalo doesn't want it ever traced back to him that he helped take down their cash cow, he just wants to hurt him in the eyes of Eladio, etc.

[Ohwell]

1 hour ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Lyle IIRC was the PH worker who commented when the Salamancas, incl Hector, came to the Pollos Hermanos to speak to Gus. Wasn't that in Breaking Bad? That's when Gus  had to give a speech to the workers; I think they all got the day off. Back then people were worried Lyle was due for a trip to Belize, lol.

I don't even remember anymore, I just remember the female one.

6 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

Lalo could do that at any time, without the whole Crazy 8/Saul scheming.  But he won't, he wants the cartel to be displeased with the disruption in cash flow from the great producer, Gus.  Gus is valuable, Lalo doesn't want it ever traced back to him that he helped take down their cash cow, he just wants to hurt him in the eyes of Eladio, etc.

I'm not ashamed to say that I don't even completely understand the Lalo/Gus/Salamanca/Eladio/Crazy8/Saul shenanigans. 

[qtpye]

6 minutes ago, Dev F said:

That's true, but the show has been pretty clear that Kim is not one of those lawyers. Indeed, a large part of her arc last year was realizing that she isn't, and trying to adjust her life to find a more rewarding outlet. Judge Neelix basically calls her on it in their first conversation -- he knows she's hanging out in his courtroom in the hopes that he'll hook her up with a blameless underdog she can defend against the heartless system.

And Kim takes his point that it would be naive to hope for something so clear-cut, but that doesn't stop her from trolling for criminal defense work. And that's because, it seems to me, she knows that law isn't fair by default but still thinks it can be -- that by really hunkering down and working her butt off, she can make it work for the people who need it most.

And her storyline with Mr. Acker this season seems to be getting at why she so desperately needs that to be true: because she sees herself as someone who clawed her way out from under the unfairness of the system, and she hates that idea that she's now using her considerable legal powers to keep other unfortunate folks from doing the same. Just as Jimmy rejects Howard's gesture of namaste, Kim rejects the idea that she can just sit back and let the system crush these people. She needs to be the one to sweep up the broken glass of their lives.

Which reminds me: I have a theory about what Kim has planned by dragging Jimmy into the Acker situation, but it's based on the preview scene for next week that AMC posted, so there may be vague spoilers:

  Hide contents

In the preview scene, Kim makes a big deal to Paige and Kevin about the fact that Acker's new lawyer is Jimmy. I wonder if she's trying to engineer a situation where Mesa Verde will need to move the call center to the alternate site or she'll have to recuse herself.

 

Yeah, in that way Hank is sort of offering a counterpoint to the main characters' arc: they're actively spurning peace of mind, while he's swallowing his own discontent to reassure his men that all is well.

If Kim is devising a plan to force Mesa to move their location to the flood plain lot solely so Acker can keep his house than she is failing her duty to her client. Jimmy will probably threaten to take the story to the Media and Mesa does not want the bad press. I think this is taking place during the Great Recession and banks were already quite hated.

[sistermagpie]

26 minutes ago, Dev F said:

And her storyline with Mr. Acker this season seems to be getting at why she so desperately needs that to be true: because she sees herself as someone who clawed her way out from under the unfairness of the system, and she hates that idea that she's now using her considerable legal powers to keep other unfortunate folks from doing the same. Just as Jimmy rejects Howard's gesture of namaste, Kim rejects the idea that she can just sit back and let the system crush these people. She needs to be the one to sweep up the broken glass of their lives.

But that's what seems so significant to me, that Acker isn't being crushed by the system. At all. He's just not getting exactly what he wants. It's not just that he's not a blameless underdog, it's that he's demanding and entitled even when the other party is being pretty generous to him. 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

4 hours ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

Because Lalo would use his new connection with Hank and Gomez to put out the word that he was.

I  don't see Lalo ever claiming that Gus was the minion personally collecting bags of cash.  He might say that Gus was running the operation for the Salamancas, in which case an alibi is meaningless.

It's only my opinion, but I think that the interpretation that Gus keeps finding fault with Lyle in order to give himself an alibi (despite the fact that he told Lyle a couple of times that he could leave and seemed intent on doing the job himself) misses the point that I think the writers were trying to show us, which is that the normally cool-as-a-cucumber boss Gus was so beside himself with anxiety, he kept finding fault with the faultless Lyle.

Edited March 10, 2020 by ItCouldBeWorse

[ShadowFacts]

23 minutes ago, Ohwell said:

I'm not ashamed to say that I don't even completely understand the Lalo/Gus/Salamanca/Eladio/Crazy8/Saul shenanigans. 

Yeah, don't feel bad, I have to keep reminding myself of what's going on, and not even sure I have it straight at all times.

Only people who watched the old Andy Griffith show will get this, but Jimmy and the bowling ball throwing was giving me Ernest T. Bass vibes, down to the cap.

[Lonesome Rhodes]

20 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

Lalo could do that at any time, without the whole Crazy 8/Saul scheming.  But he won't, he wants the cartel to be displeased with the disruption in cash flow from the great producer, Gus.  Gus is valuable, Lalo doesn't want it ever traced back to him that he helped take down their cash cow, he just wants to hurt him in the eyes of Eladio, etc.

I apologize for being repetitive.

Gus did not survive and thrive by underestimating the enmity of his enemies.  He knew all too well that irrationality can rear its ugly head at any time.  Sure, it's a bit of a stretch.  Yet, can anyone doubt that Lalo is fully capable of most anything when it comes to a turf war?  This is the nature of his hell.

He'd already decided to sacrifice dang near a million dollars from his putative Eladio ally.  This after being specifically warned to leave him be and not stir feces up.  So, Lalo just sacrificed significant cash, not merely threatened the flow.  Gus rightly sees him as a lethal and wily enemy.

The alibi was easy, hurt nobody important, and cost nothing.    

[ItCouldBeWorse]

31 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

Lalo could do that at any time, without the whole Crazy 8/Saul scheming.  But he won't, he wants the cartel to be displeased with the disruption in cash flow from the great producer, Gus.  Gus is valuable, Lalo doesn't want it ever traced back to him that he helped take down their cash cow, he just wants to hurt him in the eyes of Eladio, etc.

Exactly.

[Ohwell]

I just thought about how careless and irresponsible Kim and Saul are.  They could've hit someone in that parking lot when they were gleefully throwing those beer bottles.  Saul didn't know who was behind Howard's gate and even though it was late, he could have killed someone who just happened to be outside.  So, to me, they are more dangerous than those two numbnuts we saw last night that Saul was talking to.

[scenario]

I get the feeling that Kim was a criminal who was never really caught in her younger days. She loved it but knew that it was a dead end. She turned to law because it seemed like something where she could do good and make money but never really liked it.

She reminds me of the person whose pushed into a career by their parents that they hate but are really, really good at. Her drive to succeed and work hard won't let her quit but her heart isn't really in it. 

She tried corporate law but doesn't like crushing the little guys. She tries pro bono work but finds out that too many of her clients are guilty as sin and caused their own problems by their own foolishness. She wants a world with nice clean good guys and bad guys and that doesn't exist. She see's Jimmy/Saul as someone whose made the choice that she cannot make and likes him for it. 

Saul was a total jerk by damaging Howard's car but this is a way of distancing the audience from Jimmy. It doesn't make any sense but it does fit with the character's self destructive bent.

Howard is in a no win situation. Jimmy is very talented. He would be a real asset to the company if he could be reigned in. If Chuck hadn't been such a jerk, they might have found a way to harness Jimmy's abilities. I like the idea of setting him up in his own office and throwing him some work that they didn't want or couldn't take. Invite him to parties with a bunch of rich people to be the life of the party and then use him to get access to potential clients. Client likes Jimmy. Jimmy guides him to Howard. Three of them work on a deal. Jimmy gets clients thrown his way and free access to the firms law library and cheap help with stuff. Everyone benefits. But Chuck had to have control. Howard saw the Chuck was screwing Jimmy over but he really couldn't do much. If he tried to tell Jimmy, he'd be getting in the middle of a family fight. 

[qtpye]

1 minute ago, Ohwell said:

I just thought about how careless and irresponsible Kim and Saul are.  They could've hit someone in that parking lot when they were gleefully throwing those beer bottles.  Saul didn't know who was behind Howard's gate and even though it was late, he could have killed someone who just happened to be outside.  So, to me, they are more dangerous than those two numbnuts we saw last night that Saul was talking to.

Yeah, what if someone was walking their dog and Kim/Saul did not see them.

Again, if Kim hates the banking work so much, she needs to stop serving as their counsel instead of making sneaky plans to help an asshole of an old man.

[JudyObscure]

2 hours ago, Bannon said:

Yeah, Fring was just being a passive aggressive jerk. He looks at the fryer with displeasure, and tells Lyle condescendingly that he may go, and people pleaser Lyle responds by offering to redouble the effort, well past the point of meaningful gain, and then Fring can still only acknowledge the work as acceptable! I can guarantee that there are no cleaner fryers in the Southwest United States!

That was the second cruelest thing I've ever seen Fring do.  All Lyle wanted was a, "Well done," and he couldn't give him that.  I  miss the Gus Fring who seemed to really care about his chicken restaurant.  It made such an interesting contrast with his dark dealings and reminded me of Gale, the young chemist he had educated and hired.  Take away Gale's meth manufacturing and he was a truly delightful person.

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Howard deserves the Aggravated Bowling Ball Tossing for the way he treated Kim, and the fact that he wouldn't approach her with the job offer. (or is Hwd dickishly just trying to get a McGill back at HMM?)

Good point about Howard deserving Bowling Balls for his treatment of Kim —although wasn’t that in part because Kim took the fall for Jimmy?

And, yes, I too thought Howard wanted a McGill partner —which Saul probably correctly figures would be In Name Only (hence Howard wanting to still call him Jimmy) and likely with clauses requiring him to not do anything without board approval —despite Howard’s claims to admire Saul/Jimmy’s less traditional approach —but maybe New Namaste Howard would go for Freewheeling Jimmy. Maybe if Howard comes out of the Trial By Flying Bowling Balls Fire with his Namaste intact, Kim will ask for a job if/when she gets fired for having Saul get involved with Acker —because even if she means well for all parties involved, Jimmy/Saul is likely to screw it up —especially now that he has to answer to drug kingpins too. 

Edited March 10, 2020 by shapeshifter

[Dev F]

11 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

But that's what seems so significant to me, that Acker isn't being crushed by the system. At all. He's just not getting exactly what he wants. It's not just that he's not a blameless underdog, it's that he's demanding and entitled even when the other party is being pretty generous to him. 

But Kim doesn't see him just as a prick who's trying to get something for nothing. She sees him as a man who's desperate to hold on to his home in a way she would've been if she'd ever had one. In her angry rant to him last week, she analogizes him to Jimmy, someone who's certainly a scoundrel but whom she still loves dearly.

What Acker may represent to Kim, then, is someone who's been ground down morally by the system -- who's so convinced that the Man is going to eff him over that he refuses to play by his rules, and rejects even her good-faith attempt to do right by him because he assumes it must be a trick. In that way he's very much like Jimmy, whom Kim has watched getting fucked over by his brother, by Howard, by everyone for years, until he finally turned his back on the very idea of being decent and above-board.

So on some unconscious level Kim may see saving Acker as a way to prove that Jimmy himself can be saved -- that if only she works hard enough, she can prove that the law can be fair and generous, and her partner won't have to keep rebelling against it.

41 minutes ago, qtpye said:

If Kim is devising a plan to force Mesa to move their location to the flood plain lot solely so Acker can keep his house than she is failing her duty to her client. Jimmy will probably threaten to take the story to the Media and Mesa does not want the bad press. I think this is taking place during the Great Recession and banks were already quite hated.

Any scheme Kim participates in that involves conspiring with another lawyer to bolster Acker's claim would constitute a failing in her duty to Mesa Verde, though, wouldn't it?

Also, the current time frame in the series is 2004, so we're still right in the middle of the real estate bubble. That's probably a big reason why Kevin is all, Let's build bank branches everywhere! The banks are still handing everyone easy money to buy houses they can't afford, so the media reception would likely be less sympathetic to Acker than during the Great Recession years still to come.

[PeterPirate]

Lyle did not appear in BB. Here's the bio on the actor who plays him.   Fwiw, he's son of Dave Thomas.

https://breakingbad.fandom.com/wiki/Harrison_Thomas

 

[sistermagpie]

21 minutes ago, Dev F said:

But Kim doesn't see him just as a prick who's trying to get something for nothing. She sees him as a man who's desperate to hold on to his home in a way she would've been if she'd ever had one. In her angry rant to him last week, she analogizes him to Jimmy, someone who's certainly a scoundrel but whom she still loves dearly.

What Acker may represent to Kim, then, is someone who's been ground down morally by the system -- who's so convinced that the Man is going to eff him over that he refuses to play by his rules, and rejects even her good-faith attempt to do right by him because he assumes it must be a trick. In that way he's very much like Jimmy, whom Kim has watched getting fucked over by his brother, by Howard, by everyone for years, until he finally turned his back on the very idea of being decent and above-board.

So on some unconscious level Kim may see saving Acker as a way to prove that Jimmy himself can be saved -- that if only she works hard enough, she can prove that the law can be fair and generous, and her partner won't have to keep rebelling against it.

I agree--although I'm not sure about the middle part in terms of exactly what he's representing to Kim. But I totally agree it's very important that the person they wrote here for Kim isn't somebody written to be an innocent victim she just feels bad unjustly stomping on. He's a stubborn guy who's rejecting the very solutions that hypothetical victim would gladly accept. A guy who had been just cheated by the system might have been relieved at Mesa Verde offering more money and gratefully accepted Kim's help in finding a new place to live if they were feeling overwhelmed in their situation.

But Acker spits on both those things, can't accept any help. He's just stubbornly refusing to budge and declaring himself outside of contracts. Jimmy, too, ignores the rules. Early Jimmy might have seemed to have more in common with that hypothetical victim, the guy who put himself through law school and worked in the mail room in the hopes of winning his brother's respect, but Saul Goodman is just ready to screw the system whatever it's doing. 

Of course, we should probably also remember that Acker is the guy who told her she was one of the bad guys, so that may have gotten under her skin to the point where she's not so much proving the system or the law can be fair as proving to Acker that she is one of the good guys even if he's too blind to see it. If he thinks she's one of them, she'll send over her worse half. (All of which might line up with a father figure, for instance, who considered her a sell-out.)

Edited March 10, 2020 by sistermagpie

[peeayebee]

16 hours ago, SoMuchTV said:

Somebody called that last week. Please come back and claim your credit!

✋ It was I. 

 

14 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

I'm really not sure how the show wants me to read the bowling ball situation with Jimmy and Howard.  Am I supposed to root for Jimmy because he has been portrayed as the underdog for much of this series while Howard happens to be very privileged? 

I'm sure some people were happy to see Jimmy pull that stunt. I can't say what the show's intent was, but I don't see his actions in a positive light.

We know how Chuck's death affected Howard. He even went into therapy. Obviously he has looked deeply into himself and all he's done in his life. He's trying to make amends with Jimmy. Jimmy sees it as too little too late. Might be. At first I thought, Hey, this is your chance to save yourself and stop working for drug dealers, but Lalo already has him on his payroll, so to speak. Maybe Jimmy thought about that himself. It's easy for Howard to give him a hug and say no hard feelings come work with me, but Jimmy has associated himself with dangerous people. He might not be able to extract himself from that world now.

So then comes his OTT screw-you to Howard. I think I understand where that came from.

11 hours ago, TVFan17 said:

The Gus-Lyle dynamic is changing as Gus becomes more intense and more focused on dealing with his adversaries.  When we first met Lyle (who is apparently a hardworking, loyal, reliable employee) in an earlier season of Better Call Saul, Gus was pleasant and supportive -- almost protective of his employees when they felt threatened, in an odd sort of way.  Now he seems to be losing patience with Lyle, just as we saw him lose patience with the people he dealt with in Breaking Bad.

I agree with other people here that this really had nothing to do with Lyle. Gus was on edge, anxious, and angry. He couldn't just sit there for hours helplessly staring at his phone. I imagine he got up and wandered around his kitchen inspecting things. Maybe he fixated on a smudge. Lyle happened along and got pulled into Gus's need for distraction and for a sense of control.

I also don't see any of this related to an alibi. That doesn't make sense to me.

Some have talked here about Kim being self-destructive. I don't see that either. We know that she grew up poor and was ashamed of her homelessness. She doesn't want that for Mr Acker. I think she also wants to help him, but he refuses to be helped. Also, he wounded her deeply when he accused her of lying about something so personal and painful as her homelessness. So she wants to help him and she wants to prove that she's a good person who cares about people, and is not just a rich bitch doing the dirty work for a big corporation.

As far as Mike goes, I'm eager to find out where he is and who brought him there. I'm not seeking spoilers.

[JudyObscure]

9 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

It was I. 

Namaste

[TVFan17]

13 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

 

I agree with other people here that this really had nothing to do with Lyle. Gus was on edge, anxious, and angry. He couldn't just sit there for hours helplessly staring at his phone. I imagine he got up and wandered around his kitchen inspecting things. Maybe he fixated on a smudge. Lyle happened along and got pulled into Gus's need for distraction and for a sense of control.

 

 

The way Gus was acting had nothing to do with Lyle.  I agree with that.  I just said that their dynamic is changing (compared to what it was when we first met Lyle and saw him interact with Gus on this show) as Gus becomes more intense and more focused on his adversaries.  Gus is losing patience.  Gus is the one who is changing.  Lyle is still the same hardworking, loyal, helpful employee that he seemed to be in earlier episodes. 

In other words, we're saying the same thing, but in different ways.

Edited March 10, 2020 by TVFan17

[Eulipian 5k]

Lyle was in Season 3 of BCS: Sabrosito, not BB.

From the Breaking Bad Wiki:

"Act II

The following morning, Gus addresses his employees and apologizes for the distress caused by the previous day's events. After some silence, Lyle asks Gus who those men were, and he tells them that Hector and his men were extortionists he encountered during his restaurant's early years in Mexico and that he refused their renewed demands for money. After giving a rousing speech about how in America the righteous have no reason to fear and how those men no longer have power over him, Gus wins the moral support of his employees."

So Lyle goes into the column of "Didn't make it to BB", maybe he becomes a restaurant inspector; he knows what an adequate clean-up looks like.

PS. He dooes loook like Dave Thomas, eh?

Edited March 10, 2020 by Eulipian 5k

[TVFan17]

Did someone else here say that Lyle was on BB (I might have easily missed it)? 

Just for the record, I never said Lyle was on BB!  lol  I knew he was only on BCS, so my references to his previous interactions with Gus were based on his scenes with Gus on BCS.   I think that Gus is losing patience with Lyle (due to nothing that Lyle did wrong), just as we would see him lose patience with his people on Breaking Bad.  It's his issue, though -- it's not Lyle's fault.

However, Lyle should run for the hills if impatient, frustrated Gus gets near any sharp tools in the kitchen.

Edited March 10, 2020 by TVFan17

[Eulipian 5k]

7 minutes ago, TVFan17 said:

Did someone else here say that Lyle was on BB (I might have easily missed it)? 

 

40 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

✋ It was I. 

Now that's a frame job worthy of Saul Goodman! lol

Honestly, TVFAN17, I confess, my post of Lyle being on BB is corrected above

[Adiba]

1 hour ago, Ohwell said:

I just thought about how careless and irresponsible Kim and Saul are.  They could've hit someone in that parking lot when they were gleefully throwing those beer bottles.  Saul didn't know who was behind Howard's gate and even though it was late, he could have killed someone who just happened to be outside.  So, to me, they are more dangerous than those two numbnuts we saw last night that Saul was talking to.

I thought the same as I was watching the episode. Howard may have deserved to have been told, “No, take your job and shove it,” but he didn’t deserve to have his car vandalized, much less potentially have a bowling ball bean him on the head. It was a very immature and reckless act, imo. Jimmy/Saul is emotionally stunted. Ymmv

Also, how did Saul know that Howard doesn’t park his car in the garage? A house that size likely has a three-car garage.

[dabbrusc]

1 minute ago, Adiba said:

Also, how did Saul know that Howard doesn’t park his car in the garage? A house that size likely has a three-car garage.

He peeked over the gate to make sure it was there. You see him looking over the gate after the first bowling ball misses.

[gallimaufry]

A good episode and the storylines are starting to feel more balanced.  Very happy to have a brief rest from Nacho and Lalo.

I really like Howard and I think he's one of the most underrated characters.  I never really rated Patrick Fabian in other roles I've seen him in before this but I was really wrong.  With very little screentime since the end of Season 3, he's taken this character on a tremendous arc.  Clearly he's not done grieving Chuck and my interpretation was that his wish to make amends with Jimmy was driven by guilt over Chuck.  I worry that he's going to be a very ready dupe for Saul in some scheme in the not-too-distant future but I hope he comes out of all this okay.  He's a great and likeable character.  The bowling ball thing... I mean, I get it from Jimmy but man, it's tough to watch.  My thought with the third ball was that someone could get really hurt.  I did wonder though if we were supposed to make the connection between Kim throwing the beer bottles at nobody in frustration but cleaning it up but Jimmy throwing bowling balls very deliberately.  I'm intrigued to see where Howard's arc goes next.

Gus... I like the scene.  Tense, great to see Lyle, lots of great Hank/Gomez stuff.  That said, I do feel like Gus in BCS is underdeveloped compared to BB.  I think he must have had about as much screentime in BCS as BB by now but we seemed to know a lot more about Gus, and had a lot more hints at mysteries concerning him, in BB than BCS.  This was great procedural stuff but I feel like there's more to mine.

Saul in court - brilliant.  I even liked him with the nitwits who are irritating but the scene was good.  And the horse picture... just incredible.  They're doing a great job of writing Saul as this larger than life character and Jimmy underneath.

Kim... on the one hand, I'm enjoying her story.  But it does feel vaguely pointless.  The guy she's trying to help basically doesn't deserve her time or her sympathy.  I can only assume that what we found out about her last week cut deep and that she's desperately trying to correct being made homeless as a child, another case of trying to fix something that can't be fixed.  But without knowing more about her circumstances, it's difficult to really make much sense of it all.  And as Mesa Verde know how close she is to Jimmy, she really is playing with fire.

And finally Mike... I really liked the scene with Stacey which had a perfect balance for her of concern, forgiveness and firmness.  Mike getting stabbed was a surprise.  And the end... well, I assume it has to be either Lalo or Gus that's saved him.  Gus makes more sense given where he ends up but the location reminds me a lot more of Tuco's place in Breaking Bad S2.  Interesting.

Still don't feel the show has quite hit its stride again this season but it feels like it's part of the same cloth again which is good.

[SoMuchTV]

18 hours ago, Sharper2002 said:

If I were Lyle, I’d walk across the street and apply at the KFC. Poor guy. 

On the one hand, yeah! Run, Lyle. On the other hand, that’s one fast food restaurant where I wouldn’t have to worry about food poisoning!  Just random cartel drop-bys, so maybe not worth the trade off. 

[Ohwell]

2 hours ago, TVFan17 said:

Did someone else here say that Lyle was on BB (I might have easily missed it)? 

✋  I think I was the first one who initially said it, then I corrected my post.

1 hour ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Honestly, TVFAN17, I confess, my post of Lyle being on BB is corrected above

Wow, I didn't know someone else was guilty too!

[peeayebee]

2 hours ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Now that's a frame job worthy of Saul Goodman! lol

HEY!

3 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

Fwiw, he's son of Dave Thomas.

I had to check to see if that was SCTV Dave Thomas or Wendy's Dave Thomas.

[PeterPirate]

3 hours ago, gallimaufry said:

I really like Howard and I think he's one of the most underrated characters.  I never really rated Patrick Fabian in other roles I've seen him in before this but I was really wrong.  With very little screentime since the end of Season 3, he's taken this character on a tremendous arc.  Clearly he's not done grieving Chuck and my interpretation was that his wish to make amends with Jimmy was driven by guilt over Chuck.  I worry that he's going to be a very ready dupe for Saul in some scheme in the not-too-distant future but I hope he comes out of all this okay.  He's a great and likeable character.  The bowling ball thing... I mean, I get it from Jimmy but man, it's tough to watch.  My thought with the third ball was that someone could get really hurt.  I did wonder though if we were supposed to make the connection between Kim throwing the beer bottles at nobody in frustration but cleaning it up but Jimmy throwing bowling balls very deliberately.  I'm intrigued to see where Howard's arc goes next.

Agree with all this.  

Going back to the term TPTB, I would include the network as well as the people who create the show.  It is my theory that we didn't see Howard much last season because AMC didn't renew BCS for its fourth season until well after season 3 finished broadcasting.  So the story lines were somewhat disjointed, and some actors like Patrick Fabian were not as available.  In contrast, BCS was renewed to both seasons 5 and 6 pretty early on.  That gave the show's production team time to weave together a complicated tapestry, which is now being rolled out before us.  Each episode might seem slow, but overall the story is mind-bogglingly complex. And we will probably get a lot more Howard compared to last season.    

 

1 hour ago, peeayebee said:

I had to check to see if that was SCTV Dave Thomas or Wendy's Dave Thomas.

Namaste!  I forgot the founder of Wendy's was also named Dave Thomas.  

Edited March 11, 2020 by PeterPirate

[shapeshifter]

4 hours ago, peeayebee said:

At first I thought, Hey, this is your chance to save yourself and stop working for drug dealers, but Lalo already has him on his payroll, so to speak. Maybe Jimmy thought about that himself. It's easy for Howard to give him a hug and say no hard feelings come work with me, but Jimmy has associated himself with dangerous people. He might not be able to extract himself from that world now.

3 hours ago, Adiba said:

Howard may have deserved to have been told, “No, take your job and shove it,” but he didn’t deserve to have his car vandalized, much less potentially have a bowling ball bean him on the head. It was a very immature and reckless act, imo. Jimmy/Saul is emotionally stunted. Ymmv

An either intended or unintended consequence of Jimmy/Saul Bowling Balling Howard’s car could be saving Howard from getting involved with the cartel/drug dealers/Gus/Lalo —assuming the Bowling Ball Action cements in Jimmy/Saul’s mind that he will never work for or with Howard. 
Anyway, it was designed not to physically harm Howard, and his car insurance will cover it. He will be a little inconvenienced, but not much. 
 

 

 

[Irlandesa]

7 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Good point about Howard deserving Bowling Balls for his treatment of Kim —although wasn’t that in part because Kim took the fall for Jimmy?

 

IIRC, she didn't exactly "take the fall" for Jimmy but it was one of the first instances we saw of Kim choosing not to distance herself from something Jimmy did even though she disapproved of it. 

Howard trusted Kim.  IIRC, she was the first person he told the truth to about why Jimmy wasn't going to be hired at HHM. And he vouched for Jimmy with Davis & Main because Kim vouched for Jimmy which made him look like a fool when Jimmy pulled the commercial stunt.

I always did find it interesting that Kim chose not to defend herself by saying she didn't know Jimmy was going to do what he did--or that he lied to her about getting approval. 

I also look at that punishment in retrospect a bit differently.  While it was definitely harsh, her trajectory wouldn't be as worrisome as it is now if she had really considered the consequences of throwing in with Jimmy's schemes.

Quote

And, yes, I too thought Howard wanted a McGill partner —which Saul probably correctly figures would be In Name Only (hence Howard wanting to still call him Jimmy)—

Unless we learn more in the next episode (which is possible) I think Howard's invitation to work at HHM is pretty straight forward.  In fact, having it be a pure and honest job offer is what makes Jimmy's reaction more interesting. 

His firm is reportedly doing well.  He doesn't need a McGill.  He didn't indicate that he wanted Jimmy to return to using Jimmy McGill professionally; he just had a natural curiosity about why Jimmy wanted to change his name.  I also think the only reason he wanted to call Jimmy "Jimmy" is because names are a hard habit to break.  Obviously it's important to put in the effort if someone is truly leaving behind the old name but that isn't the case with Jimmy---yet. 

[Ottis]

On 3/9/2020 at 10:39 PM, Irlandesa said:

I'm really not sure how the show wants me to read the bowling ball situation with Jimmy and Howard.  Am I supposed to root for Jimmy because he has been portrayed as the underdog for much of this series while Howard happens to be very privileged? 

I just can't.  Howard liked Jimmy but he had a strong objection from a founding partner who knew Jimmy well.  While sure standing up for Jimmy might have been a good thing to do.  Not doing so doesn't make him wrong either. 

In fact, the whole time he was offering Jimmy a job, I thought he had lost his damn mind. 

I think the character of Howard is an example of the genius of this series. He isn't bad or good, he's both. As someone who has worked in the corporate world for 30+ years, I see Howard as the epitome of what the soulless corporate overlords desire as a "good leader." He handled the meeting with Jimmy by the book, even admitted he had made a mistake with Jimmy. And I'm sure Howard felt he was the good guy, coming to Jimmy with a job offer (though you could see in Howard's eyes that he wasn't sure how Jimmy would react, which is a clue to the next part). 

As far as Jimmy is concerned, Howard was the guy who didn't help him in the past or support Chuck when Chuck needed it. Whatever Howard did do was offered at a proper distance, like the corporate world demands. To Jimmy, Howard isn't a real human being. He's a construct who acts out of his own self-interests and who refuses to get in the dirt when it is needed. You can't depend on Howard when the going gets tough.

BTW, Kim sits between these two perspectives, sees them both and remains conflicted on which way she should go (in her own, more moral, way, she is more like Jimmy than Howard). All IMO, of course.

20 hours ago, Tighthead said:

The Acker subplot just doesn't ring true, and Kim jeopardizing her ethics for his sake is just too much.  She's an experienced lawyer at this point, taking hard lines against sympathetic people is something you learn to get over in the first two years of your career,  Furthermore, Acker isn't that sympathetic.  It's just off, to me.  Also Kim doing pro bono stuff to the extent she does is just not realistic.  

See my comment above. You could argue that what Kim did *supports* her ethics, and is far more ethical than "being a lawyer." She's still in flux as a character and as a person on the show. 

[khyber]

Mr. Khyber is worried that Kim will be killed at some point. I told him that I thought they would "dispose" of the character some other way.

[DoctorAtomic]

Given how we know this entire show universe plays out, I think that's even too dark. I think she just disappears. I kind of hope she makes off with a truckload of cash though.

[Bryce Lynch]

23 hours ago, Bannon said:

Mesa Verde Kevin is fine. He's running a business, which means you can't please everybody. I've not seen any evidence of mistreating employees or being fraudulent with customers, so if Mesa Verde is thriving, it means Kevin's work is a huge net positive for society. He was willing to think outside the box, and hire Kim as a one woman law firm.

Until this season, Kevin, by what we've seen was a much better business manager than Howard.

 

I also think Mesa Verde Kevin has been fine,  But, I kind of suspect the writers are setting him up to have some major subprime mortgage issues.  

I agree he is smarter than Howard.  Kevin would never be foolish and reckless enough to offer a job to  Jimmy McGill/Saul Goodman.  

Edited March 11, 2020 by Bryce Lynch

[Bannon]

43 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I also think Mesa Verde Kevin has been fine,  But, I kind of suspect the writers are setting him up to have some major subprime mortgage issues.  

I agree he is smarter than Howard.  Kevin would never be foolish and reckless enough to offer a job to  Jimmy McGill/Saul Goodman.  

He would have hired "6 years in the mailroom Jimmy". And then Kevin, unlike Howard, would have tried to earn his large salary by, ya' know, effectively managing an employee. If it doesn't work out, then you fire him. What you don't do is defer to your partner, who obviously is in the throes of a severe mental illness, for years, to the point where the business is at risk.

Howard's actually been managing HHM since Chuck's death, and Jimmy's verbal a$$-kicking, and whattaya' know? Business is better? Who'da' thunk it!

It's certainly possible that Mesa Verde's growth is being fueled by poor/fraudulent lending practices, and if it is, that's good writing. I don't know if the timelines allow for that depiction. The BB universe starts when? 2007? January 2008, when the show began? The toxic mortgage tsunami didn't become obvious to everyone until about spring 2008 or later. Then again, Saul wasn't introduced to the BB universe right away, so there is some possibility of overlap. If they credibly weave that element into this story, that'll really be impressive!

Edited March 11, 2020 by Bannon
more stuff

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I also think Mesa Verde Kevin has been fine,  But, I kind of suspect the writers are setting him up to have some major subprime mortgage issues.  

I agree he is smarter than Howard.  Kevin would never be foolish and reckless enough to offer a job to  Jimmy McGill/Saul Goodman.  

Now that I think about it, it would really make sense for the shows to overlap. Saul doesn't have to get into his cheesy office until when? After Walt and Jesse have begun cooking in the Winnebago?

(edit) Answering my own question, Saul doesn't appear until Hank has returned from El Paso, Jesse has become Jane's tenant, and the name "Heisenberg" has become widely known in Albuquerque's meth underground. Yeah, there's plenty of time for the shows to overlap. Which means Mesa Verde's growth could definitely be fueled by what will be publicly revealed to be fraudulent lending practices.

 

Edited March 11, 2020 by Bannon

[BradandJanet]

22 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

That was the second cruelest thing I've ever seen Fring do.  All Lyle wanted was a, "Well done," and he couldn't give him that.  I  miss the Gus Fring who seemed to really care about his chicken restaurant.  It made such an interesting contrast with his dark dealings and reminded me of Gale, the young chemist he had educated and hired.  Take away Gale's meth manufacturing and he was a truly delightful person.

While I am fascinated by Gus, I have always felt he has a constant intense anger that he keeps under very tight control. It's understandable given his backstory. Everything he does is calculated, including being a model businessman, but his self control slipped a bit with Lyle--something Gus will be angry with himself for allowing to happen.

The writers found an excellent metaphor for Gus's end in Breaking Bad.

[PeterPirate]

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

Which means Mesa Verde's growth could definitely be fueled by what will be publicly revealed to be fraudulent lending practices.

Mesa Verde could be on the up-and-up (more or less) and still get caught in the financial crisis.  Imho, that crisis was fueled by government policies that made it easier for low-income people to get home loans.  This led to a bubble that eventually burst.  All of the funny mortgage-backed securities were a symptom of the problem, not the cause.  

(I say "more or less" because Mesa Verde could have ventured into the "usual" gray areas of mortgage lending, such as the overvaluation of land or the overstatement of income, without getting involved with the really bad stuff like the bundling of toxic assets.)  

 

2 hours ago, Bannon said:

What you don't do is defer to your partner, who obviously is in the throes of a severe mental illness, for years, to the point where the business is at risk.

That presumes that Howard had the power to effect his own business decisions, at least on issues that affected Chuck directly, like Jimmy's place at HHM.  We already know that he had to take on personal debt in order to push Chuck out of the way.  

Edited March 11, 2020 by PeterPirate