S12.E10: The Timeless Children (Part 2)

[Jenniferbug]

8 hours ago, futurechemist said:

Now that the season is over, I'm still wondering what the point of Jack's cameo and the Brendan plot last week were for.  The Time Lord / Division sent the Doctor undercover to Ireland to do something that nobody knows about anymore?  Jack gave the companions a message that was promptly ignored?  I was disappointed that Jack didn't show up this episode.

Did everyone else got the impression that "obsessive" Tecteun kept killing the Child to force them to keep regenerating to learn more about it, right?  Or just me?

Yeah Jack's message is sort of odd in retrospect because despite him saying that giving him the Cyberium would be the worst thing ever, it didn't seem that major? He makes some more Cybermen on that one ship, who kill a handful of people, go to Gallifrey, convert the dead Time Lords to Cybermen, and then are quickly stopped by the death particle thing. 

Nope, not just you. I wondered the same thing, which is why it would have made more sense to me if the Master had been the Timeless Child, endlessly experimented on and killed by his "parent". Or if he and the Doctor had both been found as children by the portal. 

Speaking of portals, did we ever get an answer why the portal to safety led to Gallifrey? Or what happened to the people who went through it? 

[QuantumMechanic]

1 hour ago, Eulipian 5k said:

 What confused me was:

• was the death particle supposed to kill all organic life everywhere, or just on one planet?
• How'd the Judoon get into the TARDIS? For that matter, how did Donna (the runaway Bride) get into the TARDIS?

I could have sworn that when Loney and the Master had their conversation that one of them said it would wipe out all organic life everywhere, so I was surprised when the Doctor said "on this planet".  Anyone have that scene on rewind?

[Eulipian 5k]

I thought the Lone Cyberman was removing the Emotion Inhibitors from the other Cybers, but instead it was the organic bits. Between Ravio and Ashad, why is every one cutting up the Cybers, lol? Ashad took out bits of organics and Ravio put a whole human into the others.

Since they spent entire series on The Question, the Gallifreyian name of the Doctor, when will they explore when the Doctor took the name "Doctor". Isn't that what Hartnell's regeneration gave to the Timeless Child? I don't believe Brandon et al ever was a "Doctor"

Like the idea of all these TARDIS's lying around Gallifrey, where's Oprah to do the "You get a TARDIS, any you get a TARDIS...". But since their Chameleon Circuits all work, then Ruth in particular has to be a post Hartnell regen. I guess the pre-Gat scene was showing the new Academy Graduates being assigned their TARDIS, along with the Prime-ish Directive on interference.

7 hours ago, Jenniferbug said:

Nope, not just you. I wondered the same thing, which is why it would have made more sense to me if the Master had been the Timeless Child, endlessly experimented on and killed by his "parent". Or if he and the Doctor had both been found as children by the portal. 

Nice twist! but man, Gallifreyans must be the worst parents ever! "I'll rescue the little child and use her for my eugenics experiments, then I'll toss him on the road in a  basket..."

Edited March 2, 2020 by Eulipian 5k

[Llywela]

34 minutes ago, Jenniferbug said:

Speaking of portals, did we ever get an answer why the portal to safety led to Gallifrey? Or what happened to the people who went through it? 

The portal was said to open in a different location every time, so all those other people would have ended up in different places. Why it led to Gallifrey the one time the Doctor showed up is anyone's guess. Did the Master arrange that? How did he know the Doctor would be there? How long was he hanging around on the other side waiting for her to show up?

For an episode containing so much exposition, there was a hell of a lot left unexplained.

16 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Nice twist! but man, Gallifreyans must be the worst parents ever! "I'll rescue the little child and use her for my eugenics experiments, then I'll toss him on the road in a  basket..."

I don't think the Brendan in Ireland sequence ever actually happened - my impression was that it was some kind of subconscious allegory the Doctor's mind created, like a scab over the redacted memories of the Timeless Child. But it really wasn't made clear. The storytelling in this two-parter was pretty woeful all round, actually, although there was some good stuff in it.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

1 hour ago, DavidJSnyder said:

Why is the Doctor's subconscious Irish?  Is it because people keep asking him if Gallifrey is in Ireland?  https://imgur.com/r/DoctorWhumour/yODhBn3

That wasn't The Doctor's "subconscious." It was The Matrix, which is basically the Time Lords giant supercomputer of history and memories, etc.   According to The Master, Tectaun inserted Brendan's story as clues for what happened to The Doctor in the period that the Time Lords had redacted. In other words, The Doctor's story was in The Matrix but Time Lords erased and/or deleted large swathes of that history. So Tectaun left Brendan's story in there as a road map for The Doctor and she told the story in a way that was so inoffensive, the Time Lords didn't notice (though one would have thought they would have noticed the violent mind-wiping, Irish country-side or no).

So essentially, what we know is that The Doctor was a foundling who, at some point, decided to join the Time Lord version of its police force, survived being shot at and pushed over a cliff (or some metaphorical equivalent), and eventually retired from the Time Lord Irish Guards. And once The Doctor decided to retire, the Time Lords wiped his or her mind clean (only for the cycle to begin again, I guess). At some point, the show suggests that The Doctor may have been forced to revert to childhood form, which is why she has memories of playing with The Master as a child. 

Edited March 2, 2020 by eleanorofaquitaine

[libgirl2]

I do have to have laugh. Everyone who is so down on those of us who weren't thrilled with a female Doctor..... where now we have Ruth a black female Doctor (or whatever the Doctor actually is), when Time Lords can regenerate into either sex, any race. Its interesting that the "previous" incarnations of the Doctor we supposedly saw in Brain of Morbius, that everyone is excited about and pointing to, are all white men. 

Edited March 2, 2020 by libgirl2

[libgirl2]

And I don't mind Chibnall brining more people of color into the Doctor Who universe but I feel that it is starting to get overused. When Tecteun started to regenerate, I told my husband she would be a black man. And then the child Doctor's first regeneration is Asian, we called that one too. Its starting to get a bit predictable. I don't need it to be all white, but lets not overuse it and cheapen the point. 

[John Potts]

OK, so I guess the Doctor really is immortal then? Granted, he/she was never actually going to die and we only have the Master's word for it that any of what he said was true (the Matrix has lied before - also with the Master's involvement, in fact) and there's still the possibility that instead of a pre-Season 1 Doctor we have a Season 6b situation (that I'd prefer - it explains why Ruth's TARDIS is also a Police Box, for one thing).

Would the Cybermen really confirm whether somebody really was a Cyberman by sight? You'd think they'd have some sort of wireless confirmation. Then again, you'd also think they'd have some sort of targeting system so they can hit their targets occassionally! Though I did like that the Cyber-Lords had their traditional Time Lord headdresses - evidently the Master is a fan.

Overall though, one of the better finales and we even end on a good old fashioned cliffhanger! Also, kinda liked that The Master would be OK with The Doctor killing him. I think there is often along with the meglomaniacal aspect to his personality (or personalities) a desire for self destruction (which might account for how many times he's died!*)

4 hours ago, gail56 said:

So the Doctor is not Gallifreyan? Then why does she have 2 hearts? Presumably her DNA is the same as the others or she or someone else would have discovered long ago that she isn't one of them? Or are we supposed to believe her DNA was used to change the entire DNA of everyone on Gallifrey?

Not all Gallifreyans are Time Lords (as was actually mentioned in this episode) - in fact, not all Time Lords are Gallifreyan (eg River Song). If what was revealed is taken as true (and as I said, I have my doubts - especially if a future Showrunner wants to RetCon it!) then The Doctor's Genes for Regenration (and possibly double heartedness) were spliced into the Time Lord genetic code by Tecteun.

3 hours ago, Eulipian 5k said:

I thought the hesitation was that she would be killing herself.

I doubt it. The Doctor has always been prepared to sacrifice him/herself. I think she doesn't like the idea of killing what was left of her people (until they next come back anyway), however much she isn't a fan of Time Lord culture in general. And The Master has always been portrayed as a Frenemy, who'd be dying with the rest of them.

ETA: And did we really need to rename the CIA (Celestial Intervention Agency, of course)? Or is this a UNIT/Torchwood (or Section 31/Starfleet Intelligence, to switch fandoms) situation where there are two organisations doing essentially the same job? I can't believe the real CIA (Central Intelligence Agency) would complain about how they're portrayed by a BBC show (although I wouldn't have thought the UN would complain about UNIT, but allegedly they did).

* And this time I'm sure it will be permanent, honest!

Edited March 2, 2020 by John Potts

[libgirl2]

6 minutes ago, John Potts said:

OK, so I guess the Doctor really is immortal then? Granted, he/she was never actually going to die and we only have the Master's word for it that any of what he said was true (the Matrix has lied before - also with the Master's involvement, in fact) and there's still the possibility that instead of a pre-Season 1 Doctor we have a Season 6b situation (that I'd prefer - it explains why Ruth's TARDIS is also a Police Box, for one thing).

 

The Master wasted an awful lot of time trying to kill the Doctor! 

[Eulipian 5k]

20 minutes ago, John Potts said:

3 hours ago, Eulipian 5k said:

I thought the hesitation was that she would be killing herself.

I doubt it. The Doctor has always been prepared to sacrifice him/herself. I think she doesn't like the idea of killing what was left of her people (until they next come back anyway)

But the Master said he saved the bodies  (ash and bone) of the Gallifreyans he killed. Setting off the Death Particle would be the same as burning a dead Time Lord's body, which the Tenth did for the Master before, and River or Cantor(?)  did the after the Astronaut killed the Eleventh. The only people to kill were herself and the Master, who had committed the very thing she's spent all these years regretting and forgetting.

BTW: did anyone notice that we got our "Hybrid of two warrior races standing in the ruins of Gallifrey"? Did Moffat have to give consent?

Edited March 2, 2020 by Eulipian 5k

[Sakura12]

4 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

The Master wasted an awful lot of time trying to kill the Doctor! 

That's probably why he's so angry. All that wasted time and the Doctor will never die. 

The Doctor is special in this Universe she may not be special in her own. The death particle was made smaller when the Master tuned the Cyberman into a toy, so now it would only take out a planet not the whole universe. 

[Jenniferbug]

34 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

BTW: did anyone notice that we got our "Hybrid of two warrior races standing in the ruins of Gallifrey"? Did Moffat have to give consent?

It's been a really long time since I watched any of the Moffat years but this sounds vaguely familiar. Can you please explain the reference? 

[Occasional Hope]

I loved it.

I think the Master will have survived because he united with the Cyberium, so even if his organic matter is gone for good, his mind will be there and at some point he will find a way to get a body again.

The ending could be a way to lose the boring companions, if they choose to do so.  Or because they now have a tardis of their own (and I loved that it became an identikit house on a modern housing development, no one would ever notice another one 😉 ) maybe they will rescue the Doctor at the start of the Christmas special before the Daleks invade.

[Prower]

Hui boy. The next shorunner will have to spend a bunch of time retconning this mess.

So Jo Martin's doctor was actually pre Hartnell. Which means it makes no fucking sense that her Tardis was a Police Box. Something fans noticed in 5 seconds and Chibnall didn't notice through writing the script, rewrites, shooting and editing. Great. Really shows how much he knows about Doctor Who if he doesn't even know the first two episodes...

So why was the Master so pissed that it would drive him to kill all the timelords? Because a small part of the doctor is in him? The past few masters would have been extatic about that one. 😏

Maybe the better question would be "How did he kill them?". The timelords are basically gods. That's why their war with the Daleks wiped out half of the universe. If the master feared anybody in the past, it was the timelords and with good reason. They were badass mofos. How did one crazy guy kill all of them?

In generel, this has to be the worst Master ever, by far. He really grinds my gears. Can Michelle Gomez please take a timeout from being regent of hell and come back? That would be great.

If the timelord bodies on Gallifrey were all dead, wouldn't that by definition mean that all their regenerations were spent? How did the Master cobble together regenerating Cybermen from them? Even if that would make sense (whcih it doesn't) wouldn't they all be lmited to 12 Regenerations max? And their mechanical parts, which they also need, wouldn't regenerate.

Speaking of 12 Regenerations: Why does the Doctor only have 12, when she is the timeless child, that has unlimited regenerations? We saw with Matt Smith, that he got way older than he normaly would have before regenerating, because he had no Regenerations left. My guess? Chibnall forgot or never even knew about the 12 regeneration limit. That's why the sentence in the voice over, that mentions it, feels so clunky. It was likely a last minute edition.

At the beginning it was always said that the death particle would destroy all life in the universe. Then suddenly it was only one planet. Why? Because it was shrunk? That's not how particles work!

So I guess Rassilon and Omega don't exist anymore? Rassilon who was said to have invented Regeneration, btw. Surely even Chibnall would know them, right? He can't know this little about the show he is running.

And then at the end, the cherry on this shit-sundae. The Judoon transmat directly into the Tardis. Through shields that were made by the timelords. Yeah sure. As if Chibnall hadn't fucked the timelords enough this episode already. Also why do they arrest the dcotor now, if the incident happened before even Hartnell? Why didn't they arrest David Tennant. I guess you could argue, from the perspective of the Judoon it happened a week ago, but then why in the fuck was it a "cold case"?!

Argh. I don't think I've rolled my eyes and groaned as much at any episode of TV of any show ever.

[Eulipian 5k]

12 minutes ago, Jenniferbug said:

It's been a really long time since I watched any of the Moffat years but this sounds vaguely familiar. Can you please explain the reference? 

In Series 9, Heaven Sent, the Doctor is imprisoned in the Confession dial by the Time Lords expecting he would confess who the Hybrid is; it was the arc word of Series 9. The Hybrid was feared by the Time Lords because it was described as "The Hybrid of 2 warrior races standing in the ruins of Gallifrey". The Doctor spent billions of years refusing to confess, and went to Gallifrey "the long way round" to where they were hidden at the end of time. The Time Lords thought the Hybrid was a Dalek/TimeLord union, , but the Doctor later said "The Hybrid was me,( or Me) ", but the whole concept just died with Series 9.

 

[AudienceofOne]

4 hours ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Nice twist! but man, Gallifreyans must be the worst parents ever! "I'll rescue the little child and use her for my eugenics experiments, then I'll toss him on the road in a  basket..."

"Like every parent, she wanted to conduct unethical medical experiments on them..."

[Pattycake2]

Just finished watching.  I’m offended.

[AudienceofOne]

3 hours ago, libgirl2 said:

And I don't mind Chibnall brining more people of color into the Doctor Who universe but I feel that it is starting to get overused. When Tecteun started to regenerate, I told my husband she would be a black man. And then the child Doctor's first regeneration is Asian, we called that one too. Its starting to get a bit predictable. I don't need it to be all white, but lets not overuse it and cheapen the point. 

Whereas if they'd all been white men, that would have been 'normal' and therefore unnoticeable...

[Eulipian 5k]

I would guess that Ko Shamus worked for the Division as part of the resistance in the Cyber Wars., and that the Division was still around whenever the Ruth Doctor was working for Commander Gat. Neither of them were said to be pre Hartnell. No one even said that Brendon couldn't be one of the 6B doctors before or after Ruth. But I'm not going to ignore the only bit of evidence they showed us regarding her timeline just so I can build a straw man to burn.

Edited March 2, 2020 by Eulipian 5k
Is he Gallifreyan?

[libgirl2]

I have to say, I was hoping Jack would somehow show up. 

[DavidJSnyder]

3 hours ago, John Potts said:

ETA: And did we really need to rename the CIA (Celestial Intervention Agency, of course)? 

If they did (or just wanted to avoid the CIA joke) "The Agency" seems like it would have been as good a name as "The Division."

[futurechemist]

Ah, it totally went over my head that Brendan was a metaphor, not real.  I suppose that because the show spent so much time on it last week, I was assuming that it would have to play into this week's episode more directly.

New plothole though.  In Fugitive of the Judoon, the Judoon were tracking Ruth-Doctor.  At the end of the Timeless Children, the Judoon appeared to settle for Whitaker-Doctor to finish off their cold case.  So why didn't the Judoon arrest Tennant-Doctor when he was in the hospital on the Moon or when he brought Donna to the Shadow Proclamation?

[Sakura12]

I think they probably erased the Doctor's memory every time he/she regenerated into a child. So the 12 lives she remembers are only from one lifetime. She's had many. So Ruth is part of another lifetime that was erased.  The Doctor wouldn't remember being her just like she doesn't remember being a child experiment. It was probably easier to make the Doctor think she was on her first regeneration/lifetime with Hartnell.  I hardly doubt they wanted the Doctor to know she's an immensely powerful immortal being that has unlimited regenerations. They needed to keep the Doctor in check, because the Time Lords are elitist assholes. They wanted to be the powerful ones. 

For me I think the mystery of the Doctor was already gone. We knew her story and where she came from. This opens the mystique back up again. Now we know nothing. So I'm all for this. 

I also don't remember Ruth saying her Tardis was stuck as a police box, maybe she was just using that because that's the last shape it took before she erased her memory. Plus the First Doctor only has his memories of being the first, so who knows how many times the Tardis could've had a broken chameleon circuit. Maybe they kept giving the Doctor the same Tardis, fixed it and he/she kept breaking it. 

From what I've seen the people that have hated 13 and Chibs since the beginning continue to hate it and the people that liked it continue to like it. So nothing has changed. I hated 11/12's run and continue to hate it while others think it was the best run ever. So again nothing has changed. That's the great thing about this show, if you hate one incarnation wait a few years and you might like the next one. Most other shows don't have the option.  

[angora]

Still processing. I'll start with what I liked and work my way through to the "wait - what?!"

Continue to love Sacha Dhawan as the Master. No matter what happened at the end there, I'm sure it's not the last we've seen of the Master, but I really hope it's not the last we've seen of this version. He's fantastic, and for me, he always reels the crazy in and goes quiet JUST before he hits the too-OTT mark. All his scenes with Jodie just crackled.

Jodie overall killed it in this episode. In addition to her scenes with the Master, I loved her and the Nth Doctor in the Matrix, the solo scene afterwards that culminated in that theme-song-backed brainstorm, and her reunion with the companions. This era of the show has frustrated me at times, because when the writing isn't always up to par, it feels to me like it's holding Thirteen back, but when they really give her something to work with, both Jodie and Thirteen can bring it hard.

Some good scenes with the companions, even if they continue to not feel super well-integrated into the proceedings. I liked Graham and Yaz's heart-to-heart, Graham's idea to hide inside the Cyber armor (and I loved how immediately WEIRD and non-Cyberman-like it looked when they were first moved around in them with their normal human movements,) Ryan's excitement at blowing up the Cybermen with his "basketball" bomb, and Yaz being the first one to march straight through the barrier, no questions asked. She's ride or die, that one.

I loved the look of the Cybermasters. Even if I laughed when I first realized they had cloaks and collars, the overall effect looked really good to me.

The bad, for me, was the usual cop-out of Ko Sharmus showing up to conveniently set off the bomb at the end so the Doctor wouldn't die/could keep up the appearance of keeping her hands clean. That trope always grates, and it was a cheap way to end the episode.

Okay, now let's see if I'm ready to tackle the Timeless Child stuff. I liked the basic set-up of it, interesting but unnerving, and I agree with whoever speculated upthread that the Child went through so many regenerations because Tecteun(sp?) kept killing them so she could study them further. :shiver: But when it was revealed that they were the Doctor, I groaned.

I won't deny that, over the decades, the Doctor has become plenty special, such that they've been Lord President, held the Key to Time, destroyed/saved Gallifrey, and been the subject of multiple prophecies (which, I maintain that prophecies are stupid on a show that involves time travel.) And to be fair, some of that stuff annoyed me too. But this one still leaves a bad taste in my mouth because it frames the Doctor as the Most Specialest One Ever due to something they had nothing to do with, the basic fact of who they were and what their body could do. Way back when One stole a TARDIS and ran away, learning to become involved in the affairs of others and starting a new way of life for him that continued over successive lifetimes, it was the Doctor's choices/actions making them special. This "specialness" was bestowed on the Doctor, making them one of, if not THE most important component in making the Time Lords who they were. And I'm not really interested in that.

Despite that, I DID kind of like how they dealt with it on a personal level. Again, the Doctor-Master-Nth-Doctor scenes were my MVPs of the episode. I liked seeing the Doctor reel, not sure of who she is anymore, and the Nth Doctor helping her realize that not knowing who she used to be doesn't have to change who she is now. And it admittedly does make sense that the Master would be driven mad(der) by learning that so much specialness was apparently attached to the Doctor from the very beginning, especially the idea that it's a little part of the Doctor inside the Master that's allowed them (the Master) to be who THEY are. When he send the Doctor that message at the end of Spyfall, I wondered what would've incensed him to the point where he'd destroy Gallifrey that simultaneously would've made him think the news would destroy the Doctor too, and this tracks. It's just that it's something that had the potential to destroy them both in different ways.

Also, the whole "who knows how many past Doctors there are" thing? My first thought was that Big Finish could have a field day with this.

[elle]

15 hours ago, Llywela said:

Okay, I've had the night to think about it. I've also been hit by some really bad news that puts TV shows into perspective, so. I'm still not sure what my overall opinion is, but I'm leaning toward that I mostly enjoyed the episode as an episode, I'm intrigued to see what Chibnall does with the new mythos he's set up here, but I very much don't like that yet another showrunner has decided to mess about with the Doctor's backstory, because it has been done so many times already and they never manage to reconcile all the details, so every time it just ends up getting more and more messy and I wish they wouldn't, that's all.

I had a lot more thoughts, but I'm too distracted by real life stuff to be able to write them all up right now.

I am very sorry to hear this, Llywela.  I hope everything will be better for you again soon.  Sending you good vibes!

[John Potts]

Weird thought, but given the unlimited backstory we now have for the Doctor, I wonder if this will open up the possibility of the Doctor really having been Merlin (admittedly, a pretty obscure bit of Old-Who Canon to address)?

[Pattycake2]

So, if there were numerous other Doctors, wouldn’t some planet or race had the other Doctors in their history?  And what about the specialest snowflake Clara who was born to save The Doctor?  Did Clara save all The Doctors?  Or were there also Laura’s, Doras, and Floras?  Aw nuts.

 

 

 

[AnimeMania]

There is no telling how many thousands or billions of years old The Doctor is. It would be nice if the doctor could reverse her mind wipes so that she could remember her entire history.

[DanaK]

Assuming one is ok with the reveal and will not stop watching because of it, the neat thing is it doesn’t really change what the show is. The Doctor now has way more to her backstory than she thought, but it doesn’t change who she is now, a traveler who likes to travel and help those in need. We might get some stories of her trying to unravel that past and meeting more unknown selves, but the majority of the stories will still be her adventures with her companions (unless Chibnall or a future showrunner wants to concentrate on the former)

Am I right in assuming the last bomb destroyed the Matrix? If so, that will make it harder for the Doctor to discover her lost past. I also assume the loss of the Matrix will impact any surviving Time Lord who wasn’t on Gallifrey when the Master razed it. It normally should impact the Doctor, but if she naturally regenerates, I guess she doesn’t need Time Lord tech help. On the other hand, we don’t know if her adoptive mother or the other Time Lords messed with her ability. Was she really at the end of her regeneration cycle with 11 or was that a coverup by the Time Lords? The new information has raised a lot of new questions

[libgirl2]

11 hours ago, angora said:

Some good scenes with the companions, even if they continue to not feel super well-integrated into the proceedings. I liked Graham and Yaz's heart-to-heart, Graham's idea to hide inside the Cyber armor (and I loved how immediately WEIRD and non-Cyberman-like it looked when they were first moved around in them with their normal human movements,) Ryan's excitement at blowing up the Cybermen with his "basketball" bomb, and Yaz being the first one to march straight through the barrier, no questions asked. She's ride or die, that one.

I won't deny that, over the decades, the Doctor has become plenty special, such that they've been Lord President, held the Key to Time, destroyed/saved Gallifrey, and been the subject of multiple prophecies (which, I maintain that prophecies are stupid on a show that involves time travel.) And to be fair, some of that stuff annoyed me too. But this one still leaves a bad taste in my mouth because it frames the Doctor as the Most Specialest One Ever due to something they had nothing to do with, the basic fact of who they were and what their body could do. Way back when One stole a TARDIS and ran away, learning to become involved in the affairs of others and starting a new way of life for him that continued over successive lifetimes, it was the Doctor's choices/actions making them special. This "specialness" was bestowed on the Doctor, making them one of, if not THE most important component in making the Time Lords who they were. And I'm not really interested in that.

I loved how Yaz just went in too!!!

I get you what you are saying with the Doctor. I prefer him or her being this brilliant, rebel Time Lord, who bucked society's restraints (and still does so) and took off to explore the universe. I know the Doctor still is but not she is, well quite frankly, like a god.

11 hours ago, John Potts said:

Weird thought, but given the unlimited backstory we now have for the Doctor, I wonder if this will open up the possibility of the Doctor really having been Merlin (admittedly, a pretty obscure bit of Old-Who Canon to address)?

Canon I remember and yes. I don't have a real problem with that. I always thought the Doctor could have dropped in during that time period and have been MErlin.

[Gummo]

I liked it. It was a big noisy mess but I liked it. And since nothing the Master says or does can be trusted, the whole thing can be reverse-engineered out of the story at any time. (Yes, it supposedly came from the Matrix, but how long has he had to mess with the Matrix? We don't know how long it's been since he destroyed Gallifrey (or really, how he did it)).

So now the Doctor is Kal-El, the mysterious orphan saviour from an unknown place whose innate goodness and powers leads her to roam the universe saving people from evil? Not new, but obviously a myth that works, as Superman has endured for 80 years through all sorts of incarnations. And it gives her wanderings an overarching purpose as she searches for clues to her origins.

So, are the companions done? I hope not, I liked Yaz and Graham, though Ryan never had much to do. 

[DanaK]

In that scene where the Doctor threatens to detonate the Death Particle, Sacha is so amazing as the Master pretty much pleads with the Doctor to detonate it. Such fire in that scene between Jodie and Sacha. The Master lamented that the Death Particle didn't take him out when he shrunk the Lone Cyberman. He has such a death wish, but doesn't seem able to bring himself to do the deed himself. But he also wanted to break the Doctor with the Timeless Child info. It  doesn't help his mood that the Doctor tells him the reveal didn't break her like he wanted (at least that's what she's claiming)

[darkestboy]

I neither loved nor hated this finale. I mean it was a step up from the previous series but that's not saying too much.

Doctor being the Timeless Child. There are pros and cons to this but it feels eh at the moment tbh.

I did like seeing Ruth again and I wish that Brendan had been something else but at least one of those two should appear next series .

Sacha Dhawan has been a revelation as the Master and I'm glad we got lots of scenes with him and Jodie Whittaker. I say he also will be back next series.

Lone Cybermen was too easily taken out tbh and the CyberMasters looked ridiculous. Won't be sad they're gone.

I'm hoping the special serves as a proper clearing of the decks with the companions. They do need to go now.

Nice Judoon cameo. Did not expect them to appear, 7/10

[Eulipian 5k]

On 3/2/2020 at 4:23 PM, futurechemist said:

New plothole though.  In Fugitive of the Judoon, the Judoon were tracking Ruth-Doctor.  At the end of the Timeless Children, the Judoon appeared to settle for Whitaker-Doctor to finish off their cold case.  So why didn't the Judoon arrest Tennant-Doctor when he was in the hospital on the Moon or when he brought Donna to the Shadow Proclamation?

I've been assuming that even though Commander Gat is from the past (Gallifrey still stands), she would hire the Judoon after she followed Ruth and Lee to our time. She had followed them to present day through Lee's medal. They came back for the one who didn't point the gun at them, lol.

BTW: Ruth dropped the Doctor off near her (Ruth's) flat , is Ruth still there in Gloucester?

20 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

There is no telling how many thousands or billions of years old The Doctor is. It would be nice if the doctor could reverse her mind wipes so that she could remember her entire history.

"And now that I've seen the error of my ways, let me go back and unwipe Donna, and Ada, and who was that girl with the wide face? "

Edited March 3, 2020 by Eulipian 5k

[DanaK]

Something else I liked was at the end, where first the Doctor says hello to the Tardis ("Hello mate" just really worked), then she enters and sits down, very weary from all that has happened. Before that, she tells the Master that the Timeless Child info didn't break her, but we can see the weight of what happened is on her shoulders for those many seconds before the Judoon show up. I appreciated that beat instead of her just skipping in and being all jokey or acting all normal

[Joe Hellandback]

I just can't wait for the Doctor's sister Dawn to show up having been hanging around in the background of the Tardis for so long!

[DanaK]

Now that we are a few days past the finale, here are my thoughts and rankings (out of 10) for the Series 12 episodes. Just to note, I’m reluctant to give out 10s very often, which is why I give some fractions close to 10 and why there’s only one real 10

Spyfall Part 1 - 9.5

i really enjoyed this, especially the reveal of the Master at the end. Loved the tux costumes, especially Jodie’s. Loved the spy motif and the music. Jodie and Sacha were really great. Just really enjoyable all around

Spyfall Part 2 - 9-9.5

Yes, the Kasaavin/Barton stuff kind of fell apart at the end and the resolution was rushed, but I enjoyed so much about this episode, especially the Doctor/Master scenes. Jodie and Sacha have so much chemistry. Also enjoyed Ada and her antics and the companions did well. I’m just not sure whether to give it a 9 or 9.5, though I suppose it could lose a half point for the K/Barton messiness

Orphan 55 - 6

There were a lot of catcalls thrown at this episode, and I don’t necessarily disagree with the criticisms, but I still enjoyed it. The Doctor was strong and Jodie gave a great performance. I think a 6 probably manages to capture the essence of the messy/fun dual nature of the episode

Nikola Tesla’s Night Of Terror - 8

This was an enjoyable and fun historical. Goran was great as Tesla and Jodie was strong 

Fugitive of the Judoon - 9.5

This is my personal favorite of the season. There was just so much fun and surprises in this episode, from the Judoon to the RuthDoc reveal to Jack’s cameo. I just can’t decide whether to leave this at 9.5 or give it a 10

Praxeus - 6

Like Orphan, there are a lot of bricks one can throw at this episode, and I would agree with them. But there is a lot to like about the episode. The Doctor was strong, the companions had a lot to do and I think Mandip shone here, and I liked Jake and his husband though Jake stood out more

Can You Hear Me? - 8

A really good, well directed episode with a good focus on mental health. Zellin was a strong villain and the topic of mental health was emotional and handled well. The animation sequence was really clever

The Haunting of Villa Diodati - 9

This was a really enjoyable episode with outstanding direction, costumes and great lighting, especially given it was mostly by candlelight. Jodie was very strong here as was the guy playing the Lone Cyberman. The rest of the cast was good too. Another one where I’m waffling between a 9 and 9.5 score

Ascension of the Cybermen - 9.5

A really fun, tense, exciting beginning to the finale. The Doctor/Lone Cyberman face-off on the ship was great and they separately were great

The Timeless Children - 10

This was clearly a divisive episode, but I thought it was a great finale. Sacha was fantastic here and Jodie was a great foil for him. I love their chemistry. The scene where the Doctor threatened to unleash the Death Particle and the Master kept goading her to do it was utterly great. He wanted to die, but only if the Doctor did it, so he could see her destroyed by taking that act. Jodie and Sacha were fantastic here. The whole Timeless Child reveal was game changing and audacious, changing the Doctor’s past history, but without really changing the theme of the show or who the Doctor is now. All those elements together make this the only outright 10 of the season for me

All in all, it was a really enjoyable season for me, several steps up from Series 11. It seems like the cast and crew had more confidence and the Doctor showed her darker side and had more heartbreak and pressure that she didn’t have in Series 11.

The Doctor was more front and center this season than last and Jodie really shined. Sacha was a wonder as the Master and he and Jodie really played well off each other. The Lone Cyberman was a great villain, probably second behind the Master. Mandip was allowed to do more this season and gave Yaz some solid stuff, including some recklessness. I thought the companions as a whole were used better plot wise, though I do think 3 is too many to get a good handle on them individually

Edited March 4, 2020 by DanaK

[taanja]

Well I freakin' loved it!

This season has really made me love this Doctor and I actually like all the companions (after a slow warm-up)

The Doctor is the original timeless child? Or is She/He?

Cuz the Master is an unreliable narrator so we really can't believe a word out of His/Her mouth.

Either way I am down with it!

Oh and I'm just going to add that I thought having to Doctor locked up in prison (probs cuz the universe thinks she is the one that blew up Gallifrey when we--- the audience---- know it was the old Dumbledore dude!) 

Irony!

How will she escape! Tune in next season!!!!!

 

On 3/2/2020 at 9:17 AM, Chaos Theory said:

Besides like it or not The Doctor has always been an unreliable narrator.    

and so is the Master!

[angora]

On 3/3/2020 at 10:13 AM, DanaK said:

In that scene where the Doctor threatens to detonate the Death Particle, Sacha is so amazing as the Master pretty much pleads with the Doctor to detonate it. Such fire in that scene between Jodie and Sacha. The Master lamented that the Death Particle didn't take him out when he shrunk the Lone Cyberman. He has such a death wish, but doesn't seem able to bring himself to do the deed himself. But he also wanted to break the Doctor with the Timeless Child info. It  doesn't help his mood that the Doctor tells him the reveal didn't break her like he wanted (at least that's what she's claiming)

It’s so interesting, because in many ways, the Master will do anything NOT to die (before getting a new regeneration cycle in the Time War, they stole multiple bodies to cheat death.) They remind me a little of Voldemort that way - for all the villainy and destruction, they’re partly motivated simply by the terror of dying. And yet, they seem willing and ready to die if that can somehow be contrived to mean they win and the Doctor loses. We saw it in “The Last of the Time Lords,” when he opted not to regenerate after being shot purely because the Doctor didn’t want to be the only one left (even though he did have contingencies in place,) and we saw it here with the Death Particle.

Speaking of the Death Particle, I didn’t like that that was the Lone Cyberman’s plan. As with last week, the humans’ biggest fear was being captured and converted, but the Lone Cyberman was like, “Forget that conversion nonsense, I’m just gonna kill you all.”

[DanaK]

Something I forgot to highlight was the Master’s info dump to the Doctor about the Timeless Child. A lot of people didn’t like it because he dumped a lot of info, but I thought those sequences were well done because instead of just talk, they were illustrated without (almost no) dialog. The sequence of the however long it took building of the citadel/capitol city was especially well done. It’s yet another example of the season’s creative ways to do an info dump

13 hours ago, angora said:

And yet, they seem willing and ready to die if that can somehow be contrived to mean they win and the Doctor loses. We saw it in “The Last of the Time Lords,” when he opted not to regenerate after being shot purely because the Doctor didn’t want to be the only one left (even though he did have contingencies in place,) and we saw it here with the Death Particle.

Exactly. You make a great point I forgot about, that the Master usually does anything he can to survive. But in this case especially, he was ready to die if he could goad the Doctor to lower herself to do the deed; he certainly didn’t want Ko Sharmus to do it.

[DoctorAtomic]

On 3/2/2020 at 5:22 PM, Sakura12 said:

They needed to keep the Doctor in check, because the Time Lords are elitist assholes. They wanted to be the powerful ones.

That's a good enough explanation for me. Continuity isn't the show's strong point, and I don't really care because I want it to be on television till the end of time. But, conceptually, I like that it's fairly in line with One leaving and the Doctor being a thorn to the Time Lords. 

I can't believe none of the Companions died! I was holding my breath. I really, really like them stepping up and getting it done without the Doctor around. This is really what the show is about for me, and I really think this is a great theme for kids. 

I was hoping for Jack too. 

I actually disagree with the suggestion that the Master should have been the timeless child. This trend of explaining away bad people because of their circumstances is stale. They did that with Simm about hearing the drums all the time too. Some people are just assholes. 

On 3/3/2020 at 1:14 AM, AnimeMania said:

There is no telling how many thousands or billions of years old The Doctor is. It would be nice if the doctor could reverse her mind wipes so that she could remember her entire history.

I tend to think that much information might fry her brain. More fun to meet other 'old' Doctors pre-taking the name Doctor. 

 

On 3/1/2020 at 7:08 PM, Sakura12 said:

What prison is she in. Is River there? Or maybe Jack.

Please let Jack break her out. I want all of that. 

[truther]

On 3/4/2020 at 10:13 AM, DanaK said:

Now that we are a few days past the finale, here are my thoughts and rankings (out of 10) for the Series 12 episodes. Just to note, I’m reluctant to give out 10s very often, which is why I give some fractions close to 10 and why there’s only one real 10

* * *

All in all, it was a really enjoyable season for me, several steps up from Series 11. It seems like the cast and crew had more confidence and the Doctor showed her darker side and had more heartbreak and pressure that she didn’t have in Series 11.

The Doctor was more front and center this season than last and Jodie really shined. Sacha was a wonder as the Master and he and Jodie really played well off each other. The Lone Cyberman was a great villain, probably second behind the Master. Mandip was allowed to do more this season and gave Yaz some solid stuff, including some recklessness. I thought the companions as a whole were used better plot wise, though I do think 3 is too many to get a good handle on them individually

Thanks to some recent flights on Delta, where for some reason they had the final four episodes from season 11, I had a chance to re-watch those episodes plus most of this season.  They've done some really good work with Jodie's Doctor.  My ratings would generally be a step lower than yours across the board -- 7s and 8s instead of 9s and 10s -- but I agree that Orphan 55 and Praxeus were the weakest in a season that otherwise soared pretty high.  

My main complaints are about the show's structure.  I don't think the companions have really added much at all.  They're like the characters in the new Star Wars or Marvel movies, just sort of moving from one scene to the next without really growing or changing in any way.  Yaz, after two seasons, is just getting up the courage to do what Amy or Donna did after 10 minutes.  Ryan, in particular, is just kind of this guy who occasionally says or does something to advance the plot.  The companions have this recurring bit where they try to challenge the Doctor and she tells them to know their place because she's all old and broody and whatnot, and it seems like they've had that scene 3 or 4 times.  Even Graham, my favorite of the three, is kind of just running in place.  

I also wish they could produce more episodes.  Twenty in three years is pretty weak.  

But I've decided, on reflection, that I liked the ending to this season.  I'm instinctively somebody who wants things to stay as they are, so I'm not happy about the Timeless Child storyline or Gallifrey being destroyed, but the show actually pulled it off really well, with nuggets in the earlier episodes and some great possibilities going forward.  Sacha was incredible.  I'm happy about what they did this year.  

[Eulipian 5k]

On 3/4/2020 at 10:13 AM, DanaK said:

The whole Timeless Child reveal was game changing and audacious, changing the Doctor’s past history, but without really changing the theme of the show or who the Doctor is now

The use of the Brandon story as a sanitized synopsis of what had been happening to the Timeless Child was a "show not tell" some of us missed on first watch; really well done.

Regarding all the pre-Hartnell regenerations, it should not change who the Doctor is. Wasn't the name chosen by the Hartnell regeneration that stole a TARDIS and ran away from Gallifrey? All Time Lords are not the Doctor and all regenerations of the Timeless child are not the Doctor, (the Hurt Doctor is a regen that was not considered a Doctor, except for one moment that he will forget).  They only became the Doctor after Hartnell.

Ruth is post Hartnell, hence the Police Box, so she is a "Doctor", who was brain wiped. It doesn't screw up the number of regen's because the Timeless child doesn't need to count their regens; only TV viewers and show runners, (and Clara too), refer to the Doctor as a number/"hour". (and the Trenzalore #11, but all that was Time Lord chicanery anyway)

I think it's great writing that the little child that wandered/ran/ or was thrown through the portal became the Doctor who ran away again from his home; just as Ruth did also.

Chibnall took his shot from the halfway line and caught all the goalies off their line! Goooaalll!

Lastly, I think the invasion of the TARDIS, (what?) is now an inside joke only reserved for series finales. No one demanded an explanation for Donna appearing on the TARDIS as a Runaway Bride, (whot!), or the friggin Titanic in Voyage of the Damned, (what?), so I'll just roll with it.

 

 

Edited March 9, 2020 by Eulipian 5k

[Llywela]

23 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Ruth is post Hartnell, hence the Police Box, so she is a "Doctor", who was brain wiped. It doesn't screw up the number of regen's because the Timeless child doesn't need to count their regens; only TV viewers and show runners, (and Clara too), refer to the Doctor as a number/"hour". (and the Trenzalore #11, but all that was Time Lord chicanery anyway)

We don't know that Ruth is post-Hartnell. In fact, the story we were told in the finale strongly implies that she is pre-Hartnell, which is why her calling herself the Doctor and having a police box TARDIS is anachronistic. If she is post-Hartnell, there aren't any gaps in the sequence to wedge her into, except for very possibly between Two and Three with a memory wipe to explain why later Doctors don't remember her. We've seen every other regeneration on-screen. But we don't know for sure - we don't really know anything about her for sure. That will be a story for a later season, and only time will tell what that story is.

The number of regenerations does count, in a way, because the Doctor didn't know he had limitless lives and was counting, but it amuses me enormously to think of the convolutions Moffat went through to have Eleven be the one to think he had run out of regenerations, with Clara desperately pleading through a crack in the wall for the bubble universe Time Lords to take pity on him and grant a new regeneration cycle, only for it now to be revealed that none of that ever mattered anyway. 😄 

[Eulipian 5k]

42 minutes ago, Llywela said:

We don't know that Ruth is post-Hartnell. In fact, the story we were told in the finale strongly implies that she is pre-Hartnell, which is why her calling herself the Doctor and having a police box TARDIS is anachronistic.

The revelation was that the Division existed and some think that's a reference to Gat and Ruth, but I think that was long before Ruth and Gat. Jack referred to "the Alliance" sending the (Cyberium) back in time, and the 6B scenario, how many Gallifreyan years later, refers to the Doctor being forced to work for the C.I.A. (Alliance); sounds like a job/"service" Ruth would run away from. (Ko-Sharmus kind of left the Alliance also, to wait as Gate Keeper of the portal)

42 minutes ago, Llywela said:

it amuses me enormously to think of the convolutions Moffat went through to have Eleven be the one to think he had run out of regenerations, with Clara desperately pleading through a crack in the wall for the bubble universe Time Lords to take pity on him and grant a new regeneration cycle, only for it now to be revealed that none of that ever mattered anyway. 😄 

Heh, I'd rather ignore this bit of Time Lord chicanery, because we now know it was a lie that the Time Lords had to ret-con for the Doctor's benefit because some of them knew he was going to regenerate anyway.

Chibnall said Ruth was written as "The Doctor", we have not heard of anyone referring to themselves as the Doctor who wasn't after Hartnell and we have never seen a Time Lord TARDIS stuck as a Police Box except after Hartnell. Why guess when they showed us?

Fantastic! Isn't this the type of controversy we all want from a Dr Who episode? You could almost hear the Chibbers cackling when the Master said "This is going to hurt..."

Heh, you said "anachronistic" about a Time Lord.

Edited March 9, 2020 by Eulipian 5k

[AncientNewbie]

Apart from the Cybermen not lighting Ko Sharmus up like a Christmas tree during his lengthy entrance exposition, I have to say I still enjoyed it on rewatch this weekend. 

In the same breath I forgive this show for a lot and say I just enjoy it like a soap opera's nonsense (which, fyi, I also do really enjoy) my nagging question is why Time Lord regeneration could repair Cybermasters without regenerating whole Time Lords. If they were too dead to regenerate, what allowed the ash and bone to spark up the tin cans? 

[DanaK]

Ratings catch up:

Overnights: 3.70 million viewers; I think it was 7th for the night. AI: 82

7 days: 4.69 million viewers. Rank: 30th for the week

Edited March 9, 2020 by DanaK

[Eulipian 5k]

The Master repurposing the bodies of the dead Time Lords suggests that regeneration is in the flesh itself, not the living TL passing energy on to the next regeneration .

Is that why the custom is to burn the bodies of the Doctor (11) and the Master (Simms) when they die? Has that ever come up in classic Who?

Edited March 12, 2020 by Eulipian 5k

[Llywela]

3 hours ago, Eulipian 5k said:

The Master repurposing the bodies of the dead Time Lords suggests that regeneration is in the flesh itself, not the living TL passing energy on to the next regeneration .

Is that why the custom is to burn the bodies of the Doctor (11) and the Master (Simms) when they die? Has that ever come up in classic Who?

No, that was never a thing in classic Who. We did see Time Lords die in the classic series, properly die without regenerating I mean, but there was never any focus on what happened to the bodies afterward. The existence of the Tomb of Rassilon implied burial rather than cremation, but we can't really infer the funerary customs of the entire Time Lord race from what Rassilon did, since he always was a special case.

[Eulipian 5k]

7 hours ago, Llywela said:

The existence of the Tomb of Rassilon implied burial rather than cremation, but we can't really infer the funerary customs of the entire Time Lord race from what Rassilon did, since he always was a special case.

Thx. I was thrown off by the fact that the 10th burned Simm's Master when he died, and Cantor(?) showed up to burn the 11th when he was shot, they were the only dead T/Ls seen in Nu Who.

The Cyberium/Master must have a way to regenerate dead T/L flesh without getting the whole Time Lord back? (Same question as the AncientNewbie)

Edited March 12, 2020 by Eulipian 5k
wrong post/ repost