S05.E02: Between Two Fires

[Athena]

 

Quote

As Jamie continues to hunt Murtagh with the aid of the zealous Lieutenant Hamilton Knox, he's forced to consider whether or not he's on the right side of history.

 

Reminder: The is the book talk thread. This can include spoilers for ALL the books. If you wish to remain unspoiled for any of the books, please leave now and head to the No Book Talk episode thread.

 

[Glaze Crazy]

This episode was a better set up for the season. It seems last week was more of a recap and fan service, showing almost every major character at the wedding, with a little bit of set up.

I did like how this episode really emphasized the way Jamie is treading a difficult line between Gov Tryon (and the King he represents), who has provided Jamie and his family the means and property to make a new start in North Carolina, and the men and principles that Jamie also knows (thanks to his time travelers) will eventually prevail against the Crown in a few years. In the book it's mused about, but I never got the sense that it was all that big of a deal, ultimately, since we only saw Jamie's perspective with no close ties to anyone involved. With Murtagh now in the mix it has definitely made the stakes higher, personally. I was torn at first about keeping Murtagh alive on the screen, but I can see it was another great plot point for the show.

Moving Marsali into the surgeon's assistant role with Claire was also a great change and I approve. So glad the character and actress will be getting a more complex story line with this change. If they skip the whole Malva Christie and brother characters, and their incest ick that's another bonus.

Glad to see Roger found support from Claire about eventually returning to the future. Also that they are waiting to find out if Jemmy can pass through the stones at some point. I was afraid they were going to skip past that whole concern and that it's a big reason Roger and Brianna are still in the past up to this point. I know at some point in the books they choose to stay until other circumstances happen, but at least it's clear that Roger, at least at this point, has plans or desires to return to the future.

Nice to see they kind of kept Brianna's shooting skills in the story but I wish they had touched on how Frank had made a point of teaching her these skills when she was growing up, yet Brianna didn't know why he did, at the time. It just would have been a fun little tidbit to drop on the audience, especially those who are not book readers.

Things I knew happened via book characters telling them to either Jamie or Claire but that I didn't really want to see: The tarring and feathering of the townsmen by the regulators. Bonnet blinding the man in the sword fight.

[Cloudberryjam]

Hello all!  Well, I am one who did not really love last weeks premiere, but I really loved 502.  This is one of my least favorite books of the series and so expectations for me are lowered.  I really just thought 502 was well paced, well acted and gripping. Couldve done w/o the eye-slashing, and generally the ep a bit too violent for me. But i loved Marsalis reaction to the autopsy, Jamies convos w Knox, Jamie between the fires of Tryon and Murtagh, Claire making penicillin, the candle scene, even Sophies acting is much better.  Next week should be good but another gross-out for sure! 

[Eureka]

I was wondering the same thing about if they were replacing Malva with Marsali in the apprentice role. I also have been wondering if it’s only going to be Josiah Beardsley or will his twin (is it Kezzie?) exist on the show. So far we’ve only seen Josiah. I loved in the books how Lizzie is like, yeah, I love them both and everyone in the family accepts it in time.

Edited February 23, 2020 by Eureka

[nodorothyparker]

So tarring and feathering AND eye slashing in the same episode Claire is chopping up a corpse she's playing hide and seek with?  Okay then.

The episode did a pretty solid job of giving us a Jamie who's trying to play both sides while seriously hoping against hope that he can tinker enough within the margins so he doesn't have to act against either and buy time to wait for the revolution he knows is coming.  Keeping Murtagh and thus all his cohorts in the story has really paid off in upping the stakes as opposed to the book where Herman Husband is name dropped and Roger's great great however many times grandfather makes a cameo, but otherwise it's mostly just scenes of Jamie and crew rounding up militia and battling against interchangeable nameless regulators that happens mostly offpage.  While we know that plenty of Scots expatriates did side with the British because they frankly just weren't interested in losing everything to them again, the fury of those who didn't take that track and were extremely put out at seeing Jamie as a fellow Highlander looking relatively prosperous riding around with the redcoats was nicely played.  Even Jamie looked convincingly taken aback when he realized that Murtagh had been part of the tarring and feathering party.

Given how haphazardly the show has portrayed the perils of time travel, I suppose it makes as much sense as any that the big issue now is "oh we have to wait to see if Jemmy can HEAR the stones."  I want to be sympathetic to Roger, because we know he didn't come with any intention of staying long term, and I'm sure that's what Claire sympathizes with too.  But he seems kind of dismissive of Bree clearly wanting to be near both of her biological parents and have a family for her own child that doesn't exist in the future.  And while what Claire's saying makes sense from a scientific or purely safety standpoint, does Jamie know that she's counseling the family he's waited a lifetime for and is making this huge effort for to hightail it back through the stones the first chance they get?  I know Roger's in a tough spot right now as none of his skills seem to translate terribly well to the world he's currently living in, but he's apparently got plenty of ability to stage fake burials and play hide the body with Claire.  Obviously he's not incapable of learning to adapt.  Do that and then you won't have to spend any more time fretting about how Jamie doesn't respect you.

I'm glad Marsali is getting more to do.  I've really liked the actress in the role and it seems like a natural fit if you're trying to not add a zillion new characters at once.  I did have to laugh at the scene of Claire spreading out umpteen pieces of bread under glass to try to grow mold spores because Gabaldon has already been talking on Facebook this morning about how she tried to tell the showrunners that you're not going to get mold that way, but they apparently were enamored with the pretty glassware.

So we can probably assume we'll be seeing more of Stephen Bonnet than we did at this point in the book.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Fast forward is a wonderful invention. That’s what I utilized during Bonnet’s fight with Marsden. I had no desire to see his raping face if I don’t need to. And that fight didn’t reveal any story.

I’m now wondering if I should reread this buik again, because Swear to God, that never ending Gathering, the Beardsleys and Malva, are the only things I remember. And if they’ve substituted Marsali, then we’ll I’LL be spared (spoiler tags just in case)

Malva’s skanky ass accusing Jamie of having an affair with her, and Claire reacting like a teenager, running down the hill, instead of believing in Jamie

.

Turns out I’m squeamish; I watched through my fingers during the autopsy and especially when Marsali was butchering. UGH.🤢🤢🤢

That Knox was the worst kind of hypocrite. And then turns around and blames Ethan for his giving Ethan a soldier’s death.🤬🤬🤬

He doesn’t even have the temperament to hold in his anger. And they weren’t in combat, and Ethan wasn’t provoking him. I was expecting a Spartacus moment when Ethan admitted he was Murtagh, followed by the other two admitting the same.

MVP was Jamie in this episode.

I’m trying to understand these young regulators’ passion to not be held under the yolk of the British, but Jamie was THERE in Culloden, before these whelps were born. So he knows what he’s talking aboot. Either they’re tae stoopid or filled with stubborn pride tae see Jamie’s walking a thin line—he stood behind Knox and shook his head “no” during the questioning-and I saw that as a sign he wasn’t against them and as a warning. So I was glad Murtagh set them straight at the end.

Sam’s wig looked better in this episode. But I still want tae see his real hair again, DAMMIT!  That hair is as much of a character as Jamie being left-handed is!😆😆😂😂😉

[rxpert14]

2 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

And while what Claire's saying makes sense from a scientific or purely safety standpoint, does Jamie know that she's counseling the family he's waited a lifetime for and is making this huge effort for to hightail it back through the stones the first chance they get? 

It's been quite a while since I've watched 409, but don't Jamie and Claire have a conversation in that ep about Bree going back to her time? If I'm recalling correctly, and I may not be since I have long forgotten S4, Jamie makes a comment that makes me think he's always assumed Bree was not staying in the 18C permanently??? With that info sitting in the back of my mind,  I don't think the idea of B/R/J leaving would be unexpected for Jamie and he would understand & agree with Claire's stance on this. Although it would be much more difficult now that he & Claire have spent so much time together as a family and enjoyed life with a grandson.

[Cdh20]

14 hours ago, Glaze Crazy said:

This episode was a better set up for the season. It seems last week was more of a recap and fan service, showing almost every major character at the wedding, with a little bit of set up.

I did like how this episode really emphasized the way Jamie is treading a difficult line between Gov Tryon (and the King he represents), who has provided Jamie and his family the means and property to make a new start in North Carolina, and the men and principles that Jamie also knows (thanks to his time travelers) will eventually prevail against the Crown in a few years. In the book it's mused about, but I never got the sense that it was all that big of a deal, ultimately, since we only saw Jamie's perspective with no close ties to anyone involved. With Murtagh now in the mix it has definitely made the stakes higher, personally. I was torn at first about keeping Murtagh alive on the screen, but I can see it was another great plot point for the show.

Moving Marsali into the surgeon's assistant role with Claire was also a great change and I approve. So glad the character and actress will be getting a more complex story line with this change. If they skip the whole Malva Christie and brother characters, and their incest ick that's another bonus.

Glad to see Roger found support from Claire about eventually returning to the future. Also that they are waiting to find out if Jemmy can pass through the stones at some point. I was afraid they were going to skip past that whole concern and that it's a big reason Roger and Brianna are still in the past up to this point. I know at some point in the books they choose to stay until other circumstances happen, but at least it's clear that Roger, at least at this point, has plans or desires to return to the future.

Nice to see they kind of kept Brianna's shooting skills in the story but I wish they had touched on how Frank had made a point of teaching her these skills when she was growing up, yet Brianna didn't know why he did, at the time. It just would have been a fun little tidbit to drop on the audience, especially those who are not book readers.

Things I knew happened via book characters telling them to either Jamie or Claire but that I didn't really want to see: The tarring and feathering of the townsmen by the regulators. Bonnet blinding the man in the sword fight.

I remember last season ( 409? 410?), when Brianna first shoots a gun & Jamie is amazed, she tells him that her father (Frank), taught her! 

[nodorothyparker]

1 hour ago, rxpert14 said:

Jamie makes a comment that makes me think he's always assumed Bree was not staying in the 18C permanently??? With that info sitting in the back of my mind,  I don't think the idea of B/R/J leaving would be unexpected for Jamie and he would understand & agree with Claire's stance on this. Although it would be much more difficult now that he & Claire have spent so much time together as a family and enjoyed life with a grandson.

Jamie was clearly unhappy with the idea then, at least to Claire, but he made the comment after Bree had only been there a short while and it seemed a given that it was only for a visit prompted by the fire warning.  She has since carried and birthed a child who's beginning to walk, so it's been somewhere in the ballpark of 18 months to twoish years.  They've lived together as a family for much of that time. That conversation might look very different now that he's provided a home for all of them, likely on the assumption of some permanence. 

The show hasn't done much with it, but the books also make a point of reminding that Jem is the first child of Jamie's blood  who wasn't lost to him from the beginning or he had to deny as his.  That's HUGE for Jamie.  He finally has a family he always wanted around him.  Even Murtagh, as far down the rabbit hole as he's gone with revolution and regulators, understands that this and his obligations to the people on the ridge are why Jamie is playing the role he's playing with the British.

[morgan]

I continue to like this new season.  I like that we are getting more of Roger singing.  Will make it all the more poignant when he can’t.  Love that Claire brought up his dad, definitely one of my favorite short stories.  If only they knew what happened to him!  Love that they are being clear about the conflicts about going/staying.
 

Love that Marsali is Claire’s apprentice.  So are they giving up the whole Fergus as printer?  I so want Murtaugh to settle down and avoid all of this activity, but then I have to remind myself that because of men like him, we were able to finally become an independent nation.  
 

As for Bonnet, I watch via the App and think I am just going to ff through his plot.  I hated how dragged out it was in the book and hate it in the show.  
 

 

[rxpert14]

34 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

Jamie was clearly unhappy with the idea then, at least to Claire, but he made the comment after Bree had only been there a short while and it seemed a given that it was only for a visit prompted by the fire warning.  She has since carried and birthed a child who's beginning to walk, so it's been somewhere in the ballpark of 18 months to twoish years.  They've lived together as a family for much of that time. That conversation might look very different now that he's provided a home for all of them, likely on the assumption of some permanence. 

The show hasn't done much with it, but the books also make a point of reminding that Jem is the first child of Jamie's blood  who wasn't lost to him from the beginning or he had to deny as his.  That's HUGE for Jamie.  He finally has a family he always wanted around him.  Even Murtagh, as far down the rabbit hole as he's gone with revolution and regulators, understands that this and his obligations to the people on the ridge are why Jamie is playing the role he's playing with the British.

Agree that Jamie would be absolutely devastated. In my mind he wouldn't blame Claire for encouraging it (at least I hope he doesn't).

[theschnauzers]

It was apparent to me that when the print shop burned and that printing press burned and wasn’t saved, that particular book story line was being skipped.

[anamika]

I find myself getting bored with the whole Regulators plot already. Maybe because I am finding it hard to care about the guys tarring and feathering folks as payback or the guys who are after them for unpaid taxes.

I wanted to see more of Roger, Bree and their little family. It was interesting to see Roger's conflict about going back if he can go back, and his feelings of uselessness, Tufty the squirrel and references to Nancy Drew! And more of Roger and Claire scenes please.

It was funny when both Bree and Marsali had to enter the room and see the body before recoiling - apparently they can't smell the stench of a dead body with all that blood and opened guts, they can only see it. And while I understand Claire's need to study and understand diseases to treat her patients, she already knew it was appendicitis - what more was she expecting to learn by digging in his guts? But good on her for trying to make Penicillin.

Good episode, but last week's was more enjoyable mainly because I found this week's Regulator plot a bit of a drag.

[Haleth]

2 hours ago, morgan said:

I like that we are getting more of Roger singing.  Will make it all the more poignant when he can’t. 

I was wondering if this incident was going to be in the show. Didn’t it happen during the Gathering?  I wouldn’t mind passing on more Roger torture.

Loved the scenes on the ridge and love that Marsali will be learning to assist Claire. I’m not so interested in the Regulators. And thanks to posters who mentioned the Bonnet fight so I could check my phone instead of watch. 

[Clawdette]

I have a mental image of tiny jugglers in Jamie’s brain in constant motion trying to keep his thoughts straight and his plans one step ahead of everyone else’s. He must be exhausted. 

[Rilla-my-Rilla]

7 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Malva

All that Malva stuff you're thinking of happens in the next book. She only has one scene in The Fiery Cross and that's when Roger tells the family they can be tenants. I mean, who knows if they'll move stuff around or still cut.

 

11 hours ago, Eureka said:

I was wondering the same thing about if they were replacing Malva with Marsali in the apprentice role. I also have been wondering if it’s only going to be Josiah Beardsley or will his twin (is it Kezzie?) exist on the show. So far we’ve only seen Josiah. I loved in the books how Lizzie is like, yeah, I love them both and everyone in the family accepts it in time.

43 minutes ago, Haleth said:

I was wondering if this incident was going to be in the show. Didn’t it happen during the Gathering?  I wouldn’t mind passing on more Roger torture.

No, it's way after the Gathering. Something like 60% into the book. (I just finished a reread last week) Bree and Roger get married at the end of the Gathering. 

Kezzie shows up a bit after Josiah does in the book so maybe he'll still show up on screen. 

[Haleth]

9 hours ago, Rilla-my-Rilla said:

No, it's way after the Gathering. Something like 60% into the book.

So my first thought was 60% could still be during the Gathering. 🤣

[Rilla-my-Rilla]

2 hours ago, Haleth said:

So my first thought was 60% could still be during the Gathering. 🤣

🤣🤣 Touche! 

It is the longest day ever and helps make this my least favorite book in the series, but the Gathering ends around 17%. (I was keeping track of these things for some friends that have read the books, but weren't rereading this go around)

[Wouldofshouldof]

If I remember correctly, part of why Roger

Spoiler

became a minister

was because he could no longer sing, so it'll probably be included.

[Jodithgrace]

Did they just decide to skip the part where Bree discovers a birthmark on Jem, which is the same as one on Roger, thus ending his endless agony over whether Jem was his or not?  Roger seems to have accepted Jem fully without that, plus it seems much too late to suddenly notice it.  

[Ziggy]

1 hour ago, Jodithgrace said:

Did they just decide to skip the part where Bree discovers a birthmark on Jem, which is the same as one on Roger, thus ending his endless agony over whether Jem was his or not?  Roger seems to have accepted Jem fully without that, plus it seems much too late to suddenly notice it.  

Just haven’t gotten to it yet. Does that even happen in this book? I was thinking that was later. Although, I have heard they are including parts of Book 6 this season. I hope Season 6 isn’t the last one.

[iMonrey]

Wherever that tarring and feathering was supposed to take place, they used the same "town" as an establishing shot that they used last season for Wilmington. I take it they only have one colonial-era looking town set to use but the street with the buildings on either side and the one at the end is very familiar. I think I've seen it used in other shows too.

 

[SassAndSnacks]

3 hours ago, Jodithgrace said:

Did they just decide to skip the part where Bree discovers a birthmark on Jem, which is the same as one on Roger, thus ending his endless agony over whether Jem was his or not?  Roger seems to have accepted Jem fully without that, plus it seems much too late to suddenly notice it.  

This happens in Book 6 after Jem picks up lice from one of the other boys and they have to shave his head.  Roger shaves his head, too, in solidarity.  

[Haleth]

Are birthmarks hereditary?  I gave Diana the side eye for that plot device. 

Edited February 24, 2020 by Haleth

[SassAndSnacks]

1 hour ago, Haleth said:

Are birthmarks hereditary?  I gave Diana the side eye for that plot device. 

I think it’s a special type of birthmark. My grandfather, father, and I all have a marking in the same spot on the back of our necks. My grandmother always called it a “strawberry” as if that was some medically accepted term. Whatever the case, I picked up what Diana was putting down with Jem and Roger for that reason.

[aemom]

16 hours ago, Haleth said:

Are birthmarks hereditary?  I gave Diana the side eye for that plot device. 

They can be, but there's no real hard or fast rule I don't think.

My mother and I have one in the same place.

[toolazy]

Isn't there something in one of the earlier books about Brianna having a birthmark behind her ear?  It's one of the woowoo dreams that Jamie has.  

[bluestocking]

I wish SOMEBODY has mentioned Ian--it's like he never existed.  Just a "I wish Ian were here; I wonder where he is?" line at the wedding would have been good.

[pootlus]

On 2/24/2020 at 5:15 AM, nodorothyparker said:

I did have to laugh at the scene of Claire spreading out umpteen pieces of bread under glass to try to grow mold spores because Gabaldon has already been talking on Facebook this morning about how she tried to tell the showrunners that you're not going to get mold that way, but they apparently were enamored with the pretty glassware.

I almost shouted "how are you going to get penicillin in airtight jars you ninny?".  They could have used pretty glass *bowls*.

I also think the keeping Murtagh alive plot has worked out really well (I don't know if they thought that far ahead when they made the call, does anyone know?).  I struggled to connect to the Regulator plot in the books but this makes it much more high stakes.  I hope they don't go down the cliche route of "Jamie is forced to kill Murtagh, but Murtagh gives him an approving farewell nod just before he does it".  If Murtagh is going to die this season (which I strongly suspect) he deserves something a little more original/heroic.

[Cdh20]

12 hours ago, pootlus said:

I almost shouted "how are you going to get penicillin in airtight jars you ninny?".  They could have used pretty glass *bowls*.

I also think the keeping Murtagh alive plot has worked out really well (I don't know if they thought that far ahead when they made the call, does anyone know?).  I struggled to connect to the Regulator plot in the books but this makes it much more high stakes.  I hope they don't go down the cliche route of "Jamie is forced to kill Murtagh, but Murtagh gives him an approving farewell nod just before he does it".  If Murtagh is going to die this season (which I strongly suspect) he deserves something a little more original/heroic.

SO agree-it better not be Jamie!

[mammaM]

On 2/28/2020 at 8:58 AM, Cdh20 said:

SO agree-it better not be Jamie!

Of COURSE it's going to be Jamie!

Books or show, he's not allowed to be happy for more than a day or two, then it's back to grief and sorrow and murder, etc.

[areca]

4 hours ago, mammaM said:

Of COURSE it's going to be Jamie!

It will be Jamie, just as it was Dougal's responsibility, Jamie will take it as his.

[tennisgurl]

Jamie must be absolutely exhausted every second of the day, trying to keep track of everyone who is working for who and for what reason as he tries to figure out how to deescalate the situation as much as possible and keep everyone from killing each other, while keeping what he is doing on the down low, meanwhile both sides keep escalating to more violence...on the grounds that the other side has escalated to more violence, while he makes excuses as to why he hasn't found Murtagh yet, all the while having future knowledge of how all of this will end, more or less! The poor guy must pass out the second he gets to bed every night...until the baby starts up of course!

[WatchrTina]

On 2/23/2020 at 1:33 PM, GHScorpiosRule said:

I was expecting a Spartacus moment when Ethan admitted he was Murtagh, followed by the other two admitting the same.

I was expecting Jamie to count his blessings that he could pretend that "Murtagh Fitzgibbon" was now dead so that he could stop hunting him.  Why on earth didn't he maintain the lie?

I'm late to this conversation -- finally getting to see the ep today -- and I have to say I don't plan to EVER watch it again.  I don't recall Stephen Bonnet blinding and crippling someone in the book and I sure as HELL didn't need to see it. I DO recall someone being tarred and feathered in the book but I'm really sorry I had to see it AGAIN.  (The HBO show Carnival had depicted the particulars of that horrible historical atrocity years ago and I hated seeing it then.)  I also hated the prolonged autopsy plot-line.  That body would STINK by now.  Everyone working in the big house (and there were a lot of them) would know that something was rotting in Claire's surgery.  So the gross-out factor of this episode is regrettably high.  But for me it was the wanton cruelty of Stephen Bonnet that pushed this ep into the "too much" category.

I'm delighted that the actress playing Marsali has been given more to do (and if that means the "Malva" plot-line dies, all the better).  I'm delighted that Duncan Lacroix (as Murtagh) has been given more to do.  I'm delighted to see the actor Billy Boyd back as Gerald Forbes because I'm a Lord of the Rings fan (he played Pippin).  And it's actually quite fun that -- as a reader -- I have no idea how all this off-book stuff is going to play out.  But I can't say I actually *enjoyed* this episode.

Edited March 10, 2020 by WatchrTina

[Kim0820]

Brianna seems to be much better than Claire about living in the 18th century and accepting that it is the 18th century.  Warning Claire not to mess too much with the timeline of the universe or doing something to get accused of witchcraft.  

Claire was clever to put her advice under a man's name, though.  

Perhaps Claire could have treated the body so that it did not stink:  I suppose they do something to them in the morgue so they don't.  Alcohol perhaps?  Though she did not need the autopsy to know the cause of death.  And having been through medical school, she doesn't need to study cadavers to learn about the inner workings of the human body.   

Jamie seeing Brianna and Jem is probably more than he ever expected to do.  

Roger could have just practiced.  He has Claire examine his eyes because he can't shoot?  Doesn't he realize he could practice and get better?  Dumb.  Not sure why he wants to go back - even he does not complain about the lack of 20th century conveniences.  Brianna and Claire were talking about them in an earlier episode, but both really don't seem to mind not having them.  If Claire minds, it is only expressed where it hinders her helping someone medically less than she knows she could.