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Episode Discussion II: The TFGH


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Culture Check: How can we discuss a character's or actor's appearance without objectifying them? How can we express likes or dislikes and still respect an individual's humanity or be mindful that a character represents a person someone else might relate to or identify with?

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Does anyone remember some dialogue about Curtis yesterday (maybe from Marshall or Stella) to the effect of "Curtis is such a warrior, so he needs to not be in that chair." Probably because someone in my family is paraplegic, it pissed me off so much, but I would imagine I wasn't the only one. 

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Catching up on the last few days, I notice that Ace graduated from "baby brother" to "little brother." And wow, NC has really gotten muscular. I wonder if he is bulking up for his next (and far better) gig. There's really no chemistry anymore between Spencer and Trina. It's like the actors have given up on the couple, too.  

Good Lord, it's like Cody approaches every single thing from the perspective of "how can I be the biggest possible jerk about this."  

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6 hours ago, TVbitch said:

Good Lord, it's like Cody approaches every single thing from the perspective of "how can I be the biggest possible jerk about this."  

I get what you’re saying, but at least now he’s deliberately being an asshole. 

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11 hours ago, perkie1968 said:

That was several layers of HAWT!!  DZ has been knocking it out of the park, first with all the Dante/Anna scenes and the Dante/Charlotte scene when he took her to see Lulu.  still don't understand why he's not leading man.  

Height; Frank doesn’t care for him very much…

7 hours ago, TVbitch said:

There's really no chemistry anymore between Spencer and Trina. 

There really wasn’t any in the first place.

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11 hours ago, Auntie Velvet said:

Does anyone remember some dialogue about Curtis yesterday (maybe from Marshall or Stella) to the effect of "Curtis is such a warrior, so he needs to not be in that chair." Probably because someone in my family is paraplegic, it pissed me off so much, but I would imagine I wasn't the only one. 

I know the show is called General Hospital, but I genuinely wish they'd just close the hospital at this point because they always do something dumb or offensive.

We all know that Curtis will walk again just like we knew Willow would survive her cancer. 

I especially hate it when they bring in extras like the woman in the wheelchair and the man from yesterday to give the woe is me assholes on this show pep talks.

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13 hours ago, Suicidy said:
On 8/21/2023 at 9:46 PM, Artsda said:

Joss has to go Metrocourt pool to sit and study? They have their own. 

New nanny would have been a good Molly instead of even Kristina. Kate Mansi could have been new Lulu. 

 

Show can’t afford two pool sets.  I supposed we’re lucky to have one.

Plus, Joss wouldn't be able to see and be seen and interact with others if she stayed at her own pool.   So..... finances AND plot point.

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32 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

I especially hate it when they bring in extras like the woman in the wheelchair and the man from yesterday to give the woe is me assholes on this show pep talks.

Same. It's so patronizing. If Curtis can't figure out how to lead a fulfilling life, that's on him.

And he's not even a month into his convalescence. Has he even fully recovered from surgery? How about you do the work and then see where you are? Gah.

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This was a pretty boring episode for a Friday.

Sonny and Nina talk endlessly about their wedding and other banalities,

Molly invites Alexis and a very sycophantic Andrea to lunch to get Alexis' opinion; Kristina sees them and runs to the hospital to do some work for her foundation (respect from me, I would be in a dark room sobbing). She runs into Stepford Willow who tells her that everything will work out after the baby is born.

Is that what it takes to get Molly to like you, agree with everything she says and tell her how wonderful she is?

Tracy and Finn play their game, Brook Lynn rushes in and confronts Tracy about destroying Deception.

Gregory tells Elizabeth about his ALS and says that Finn will need her..

Cody talks Sam into being his medical PoA and admit him to the hospital Sasha is at so that he can save her. They're both idiots.

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Willow’s advice to Kristina was terrible but it does seem in character for her to think that way and go along with people when they are being rude or even outright unreasonable 

Ferncliff is supposed to house the criminally insane. How would patients in that environment have access to each other and why wouldn’t Cody just, idk, tell Mac/Dante privately what he suspects is going on with Sasha and why Gladys is manipulating her? He’s a moron

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I wonder if Willow has checked with Michael that it's okay for her to return to work. It gave me great pleasure to hear her say she doesn't want to spend all of her time with Michael and the kids. Suck on that, Michael. Your Stepford Wife might have a mind of her own.

LOL that Tracy said food at the MetroCourt had improved since Calry was no longer involved. I liked the room she and Finn were playing backgammon in.

Time is never wasted talking about stationery, Tracy!

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16 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Is that what it takes to get Molly to like you, agree with everything she says and tell her how wonderful she is?

when did Molly become a Carly?  Maybe thats why I can't stand her...

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Willow told Kristina that she was grateful to Liesl for donating so that she could live. I was shocked!  When Willow talks to Carly or Michael, it's always how Drew saved her. That she could tell Kristina, who likes Nina, that she is grateful to Liesl gives me hope that she's not entirely brain dead.

Rant: I'm really tired of female characters saying they want to do something because they want to help people. Willow told Liz that she wants to go back to work so that she can help people, Andrea seemed to endlessly say that she wants to be a surrogate to help Molly/a woman out. You never hear TJ say that he wants to be a doctor to help people even if he does.

2 minutes ago, MarciNJ said:

when did Molly become a Carly?  Maybe thats why I can't stand her...

With the recast and this infertility story I think. Both Molly and and to some extent TJ are showing the characteristics of a Carly. Portia and Curtis have been ones for a while.

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I am so into the Cody and Sam storyline.  They work really well together, Kemo has perked up and is so cute right now.  I don't even know what to say about these Molly scenes, but I do love the new Kristina.  I'm sorry they saddled her with Willow.  Why is Willow going back to work when The Man of the House put the kibosh on that already?  If she is going to tell Michael to get bent she's doing whatever she wants, it will be most interesting thing she's done since being with Chase.  

I have something I want to discuss here.  I can't discuss it anyplace else, like Twitter or Soapcentral because it attracts the racists.  I'm starting to see no sexual chem between Trina and Spencer.  What happened?  Their scenes have gotten so weird.  They are not kissing like lovers, or soon-to-be-lovers.  Their lips are pursed.  It's becoming glaring.  Is it the writing, the direction, something else?  I know TPB cater to the Facebook Frannies, which is rife with racists.  Is this a result of that?  Or do Tabby and Chavez just have no chem?  Was it ever there?  I thought it was, especially during Greenland.  Thoughts?  This seems the safest space to discuss this with rational people. 

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9 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Portia and Curtis have been ones for a while.

I'm not sure what to call them, but I think they are in their own class of.....   shittiness, but somehow different than the Carlys.  They are whiny, manipulative gaslighters, and while I know the same can be said of the Carlys, it comes off differently with these two.  And we can add Marshall to that group as well.  I used to dislike Jordan, but she is looking pretty good to me these days....

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29 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

I wonder if Willow has checked with Michael that it's okay for her to return to work.

I had the exact same thought. I wonder if Willow ran her decision to go back to work by Michael and also Wylie, because his opinion matters too.

Why is the actress talking so fast. Is it meant to convey that Willow is excited or something?

That surrogate is going to try and keep that baby. 

The episode was very meh.

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1 minute ago, YaddaYadda said:

I had the exact same thought. I wonder if Willow ran her decision to go back to work by Michael and also Wylie, because his opinion matters too.

Why is the actress talking so fast. Is it meant to convey that Willow is excited or something?

That surrogate is going to try and keep that baby. 

The episode was very meh.

Oh, she's definitely taking that baby.  Or, she's a scam artist who is going to run with their money.  One way or the other, Kristina is gonna be their surrogate I imagine. 

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Is the surrogate planning to use her own eggs or are they using an egg donor since they can’t use Molly’s? I ffwded the surrogate interviews so I missed it if they mentioned their plan. 

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26 minutes ago, CeChase said:

I am so into the Cody and Sam storyline.  They work really well together, Kemo has perked up and is so cute right now.  I don't even know what to say about these Molly scenes, but I do love the new Kristina.  I'm sorry they saddled her with Willow.  Why is Willow going back to work when The Man of the House put the kibosh on that already?  If she is going to tell Michael to get bent she's doing whatever she wants, it will be most interesting thing she's done since being with Chase.  

I have something I want to discuss here.  I can't discuss it anyplace else, like Twitter or Soapcentral because it attracts the racists.  I'm starting to see no sexual chem between Trina and Spencer.  What happened?  Their scenes have gotten so weird.  They are not kissing like lovers, or soon-to-be-lovers.  Their lips are pursed.  It's becoming glaring.  Is it the writing, the direction, something else?  I know TPB cater to the Facebook Frannies, which is rife with racists.  Is this a result of that?  Or do Tabby and Chavez just have no chem?  Was it ever there?  I thought it was, especially during Greenland.  Thoughts?  This seems the safest space to discuss this with rational people. 

I understand what you are saying. These two have had mad chemistry AFAIWC in the past but Portia is starting to get in the way along with Esmé. 
I have also noticed the difference between the kissing scenes. I get that Jex is supposedly a real couple but still it’s ridiculous that two young people who were so attracted to each other have such puritanical kissing scenes. Either the directors are afraid to let them be normal for their ages or something else is going on 

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57 minutes ago, MarciNJ said:

I'm not sure what to call them, but I think they are in their own class of.....   shittiness, but somehow different than the Carlys.  They are whiny, manipulative gaslighters, and while I know the same can be said of the Carlys, it comes off differently with these two. 

Curtis and Portia aren't Carlys to me because they don't expect the rest of Port Charles to bow down before them and agree with everything they say, no arguing allowed.

 

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3 hours ago, CeChase said:

I am so into the Cody and Sam storyline.  They work really well together, Kemo has perked up and is so cute right now.  I don't even know what to say about these Molly scenes, but I do love the new Kristina.  I'm sorry they saddled her with Willow.  Why is Willow going back to work when The Man of the House put the kibosh on that already?  If she is going to tell Michael to get bent she's doing whatever she wants, it will be most interesting thing she's done since being with Chase.  

I have something I want to discuss here.  I can't discuss it anyplace else, like Twitter or Soapcentral because it attracts the racists.  I'm starting to see no sexual chem between Trina and Spencer.  What happened?  Their scenes have gotten so weird.  They are not kissing like lovers, or soon-to-be-lovers.  Their lips are pursed.  It's becoming glaring.  Is it the writing, the direction, something else?  I know TPB cater to the Facebook Frannies, which is rife with racists.  Is this a result of that?  Or do Tabby and Chavez just have no chem?  Was it ever there?  I thought it was, especially during Greenland.  Thoughts?  This seems the safest space to discuss this with rational people. 

I've never seen any chemistry. More importantly, I think many of their online fans are the same people with multiple accounts.

However, I think I  have high standards when it comes to the "it" factor. I also see people saying  Alexis and Finn  have chemistry and I'm like....really ?

No, they don't. So who am I to say ? But yeah Sprina...they are ordinary/average at best.

 

 

Edited by IWantCandy71
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4 hours ago, statsgirl said:

Tracy and Finn play their game, Brook Lynn rushes in and confronts Tracy about destroying Deception.

Tracy said she's working with some other company that Lucy supposedly stole "The Deceptor" idea from.  Could it be Pikeman? Are they suddenly all over the place? Is Cyrus the power behind the plot to ruin Deception? 🙂

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4 hours ago, ffwbe said:

Is the surrogate planning to use her own eggs or are they using an egg donor since they can’t use Molly’s? I ffwded the surrogate interviews so I missed it if they mentioned their plan. 

Using her own eggs, which I think is a mistake.  But Molly seemed weirdly firm on it.  You would think someone might've suggested it would be a degree of separation for the surrogate if it wasn't her own egg, but nope, everyone is just smiling tightly and agreeing with Molly. 

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The makeup on Molly is very cakey.  Full coverage and concealer so much around her eyes is distracting especially when Kristina and Sam are barely wearing any. Trying to deage new Molly isn't working, they need to find someone else. 

Kate Mansi stuck in scenes with Willow? Quit and go back to being Abby Dimera please!

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I like Cody and Sam’s scenes- I think they work well together.  I don’t know that I see any romantic chemistry, but maybe they are chem testing them in case NuLu comes back.  (Personally, I think Dante and Sam should stay together).

So sick of Willow.  And of NuMolly.

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13 minutes ago, ciarra said:

I don't recall Willow and Kristina interacting before.

Kates' version hasn't, but OG Kristina was at Millow's wedding before Crew were arrested (ha ha ha) and bbefore Willow went into the hospital.  There was a scene of family pictures being taken and Kristina trying to get Joss into the picture but Carly Junior said no way, because icky Sonny was there.  So Kris was all 'bitch please' and shrugged it off.  

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Explain this to me like I'm dumb or like I'm Cody, what exactly is his plan?  Give Sam his POA.  She legally has him committed (on what grounds?)  Frencliff is for the criminally insane so how would he automatically be sent there?  Once he's inside, what is his plan?  I'm assuming male and female inmates are not housed together.  Wouldn't they want to sedate him to keep him from chewing the scenery?  How would he have access to Sasha?  Even if he had access to Sasha, what is he planning on doing once he's there?  He can't stop Monty from drugging her.  He can't drag her out of the building?  The whole thing is stupid and because it involves him, is completely uninteresting to me.  

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Kristina keeps stressing that Molly is resentful of her because she can have a baby. Ummm...reality check to Kristina, just because she may get her period regularly and everything appears to be copacetic in her uterine region doesn't automatically guarantee all is perfect. Millions of women would dispute that fact. Of course, this is GH so 🤷‍♀️

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8 minutes ago, zengirl1215 said:

Kristina keeps stressing that Molly is resentful of her because she can have a baby. Ummm...reality check to Kristina, just because she may get her period regularly and everything appears to be copacetic in her uterine region doesn't automatically guarantee all is perfect. Millions of women would dispute that fact. Of course, this is GH so 🤷‍♀️

Kristina got checked after Molly found out she couldn't have children, and she was told she was aokay.

37 minutes ago, perkie1968 said:

Explain this to me like I'm dumb or like I'm Cody, what exactly is his plan?  Give Sam his POA.  She legally has him committed (on what grounds?)  Frencliff is for the criminally insane so how would he automatically be sent there?  Once he's inside, what is his plan?  I'm assuming male and female inmates are not housed together.  Wouldn't they want to sedate him to keep him from chewing the scenery?  How would he have access to Sasha?  Even if he had access to Sasha, what is he planning on doing once he's there?  He can't stop Monty from drugging her.  He can't drag her out of the building?  The whole thing is stupid and because it involves him, is completely uninteresting to me.  

A lot of things don't work for the reasons you mentioned. But since it's Cody and he's on a rescuing mission, then I'm assuming that everything will smoothly for him until it doesn't.

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What I find really dumb about Cody's plan is that Sasha freaked out the last time she saw him at Ferncliffe. Why does he think that wouldn't happen again? Sam is absolutely right that Sasha seeing him could make things worse.

I know, he has to be the big savior. Ugh. I want Sasha to save herself, but that can never happen with the wimmins.

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Cody is being a dummy. What he should be doing is trying to get one of the people that work at Ferncliff to view his concerns about Sasha. Or failing that trying to get a job as an orderly/janitor and see if he could sneak to see Sasha.

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12 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

I know, he has to be the big savior. Ugh. I want Sasha to save herself, but that can never happen with the wimmins.

No the wimminfolk can never help or save themselves, plus they made absolutely certain that Sasha could not do that for herself. 

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Chemistry is subjective, and I do think couples can lose chemistry over time like JaSam for instance. It will be different for everyone though. I still see chemistry w/Sprina. They still make me unconsciously smile. I still like them and would love to see them as a fully realized couple. I think they could be a great together and very entertaining as evidenced by many of their scenes, but the problem is the show is intentionally stalling them. We rarely see them together, and when they are together, they don't do much touching or kissing. It's usually a hug and/or a forehead kiss. It's like the show limits the moments they can act like a couple. 

Last week's scenes were the first ones (in a long time) where we saw them kiss on the lips. It was far too brief. And we got to hear them talk a little about their relationship. I was happy to hear Trina asking Spencer about his plans once Laura returns. I would love for her to be less self-sacrificing when it comes to him and their relationship. She should be questioning his plans, etc.

As I said, I still like them but I can understand others becoming bored by them. GH, as a whole, has been pretty boring to me aside from the Molly/Kristina drama. I haven't been regularly watching. I'm a Sprina fan but given GH's poor treatment of them, I have mostly written them off in my mind. GH is clearly not interested in developing them in any real way. I think they could be good but I doubt we'll ever find out. 

I'm w/those who hate nuMolly. She's awful I do find her drama w/Kristina to be one of the show's more interesting plots but I still hate her. It's funny b/c I liked HP's Molly. Now, Molly (and TJ) are ppl I cannot stand. I'm fully TeamKristina. 

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7 hours ago, perkie1968 said:

Explain this to me like I'm dumb or like I'm Cody, what exactly is his plan?  Give Sam his POA.  She legally has him committed (on what grounds?)  Frencliff is for the criminally insane so how would he automatically be sent there?  Once he's inside, what is his plan?  I'm assuming male and female inmates are not housed together.  Wouldn't they want to sedate him to keep him from chewing the scenery?  How would he have access to Sasha?  Even if he had access to Sasha, what is he planning on doing once he's there?  He can't stop Monty from drugging her.  He can't drag her out of the building?  The whole thing is stupid and because it involves him, is completely uninteresting to me.  

They’re so set on Cody being Sasha’s hero that I don’t think they realize quite how dumb this SL is. What makes this entire thing stranger is we haven’t seen enough of Cody and Sasha together to be invested in them and to show us why Cody willing to do this much for her. I think they were kind of cute during their first scene together but that was months ago and it was the only substantive scene I recall them having. Cody has shared the majority of his scenes with Sam or Dante since Britt died. 

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I can't believe it took the show four months to get Tracy and Finn together to play games. It's the kind of scene, with lesser actors with lesser chemistry and history, that could be considered filler.

There's actually so much there, though. I am starting to wonder, like some others have, if she isn't part of Pikeman. I can't see her trusting a non Q in that way, though. Full stop. Unless they are holding Luke hostage and she has no choice.

Tracy's greedy, but there has to be another reason.

If this were a movie on IFC, the scene with Tracy and her long  gray  hair down, and the scene the very next ep with Cyrus and his long gray hair down, would be *foreshadowing*.

Like the moment in the Usual Suspects when Chazz Palminteri is looking at the  corkboard in the squad room and has the light bulb moment.

Forgive me. I ramble.

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On 8/25/2023 at 3:09 PM, CeChase said:

I am so into the Cody and Sam storyline.  They work really well together, Kemo has perked up and is so cute right now.  I don't even know what to say about these Molly scenes, but I do love the new Kristina.  I'm sorry they saddled her with Willow.  Why is Willow going back to work when The Man of the House put the kibosh on that already?  If she is going to tell Michael to get bent she's doing whatever she wants, it will be most interesting thing she's done since being with Chase.  

I have something I want to discuss here.  I can't discuss it anyplace else, like Twitter or Soapcentral because it attracts the racists.  I'm starting to see no sexual chem between Trina and Spencer.  What happened?  Their scenes have gotten so weird.  They are not kissing like lovers, or soon-to-be-lovers.  Their lips are pursed.  It's becoming glaring.  Is it the writing, the direction, something else?  I know TPB cater to the Facebook Frannies, which is rife with racists.  Is this a result of that?  Or do Tabby and Chavez just have no chem?  Was it ever there?  I thought it was, especially during Greenland.  Thoughts?  This seems the safest space to discuss this with rational people. 

You read my mind-I thought to myself on Friday that they've drained the passion from this couple! And there definitely was chemistry between them before. I'm pretty old, but it reminded me of what things were like back in the day when the first storylines appeared featuring mixed race couples. Everyone walked on eggshells anticipating sponsors' reaction and those of viewers in the south. Is this what we're back to? Sprina used to kiss like they really cared for each other. I really don't get it-😞

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Joss looked down on Spencer when he worked at Kelly's but now that Carly owns it, she's happy to work there. Carly looked down on Kelly's but now that it's hers, the people are better than at the Metro Court. You have to give them points for looking at the best of things.

On the other hand, Carly trying to get Diane to fiddle with the legal system for Drew without Drew knowing about it is very Carly.

It's a hard competition on this show but Curtis gets the prize for being the biggest baby, pushing Portia away and not even telling her he's planning to move back in with her, and refusing information from a therapist because "a therapist doesn't know me." They did better later in the episode but it's a real contrast (unconscious?) with how Gregory is handling his diagnosis with acceptance rather than 'troubling deaf heaven with bootless cries.'

As much as I disliked Carly expecting Joss to always be there for her, I HATE how Trina is taking the responsibility for the problems that Curtis and Portia are having. A second good point to Joss (is it upside down day?) for telling Trina that it's not her situation to fix.

Robert asks Anna what she wants from him; she answers, a favour of course. TR is playing it as Robert is still very into of Anna while FH is playing that Anna has so moved on.

Robert and Diane -- just give up on it, show Bad fit, not pleasant to watch.

On 8/26/2023 at 1:46 PM, perkie1968 said:

Wouldn't they want to sedate him to keep him from chewing the scenery?

🤣🤣🤣🤣

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I am enjoying that we're getting longer, deeper conversations among the characters.  The ability to do that is unique to soaps, and I'm glad the current writers are taking advantage of it.  It's key to character development and to getting us to care about them.  Hoping it won't change when the strike ends.

But.... there needs to be some lightness.  Some set of characters that are celebrating, or even a set that is there purely for their comedy (a la the late and great Arlene Sorkin on Days).  Today's episode was so unrelentingly full of heaviness that I'm not at all sure I want to tune in again tomorrow.  I will, no doubt, from habit.  But not from anticipation.  

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2 hours ago, Bunnyto4 said:

hat they've drained the passion from this couple! And there definitely was chemistry between them before

I think it has to do with NAC leaving, even if it's not permanent.  why go full speed ahead if one of the them will be gone and likely recast.  

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Wasn’t Drew’s deal supposed to be a terrible one for him because he was making sure Carly skated? It had nothing to do with the judge being biased. I never got how that made sense but they made it clear that the deal he agreed to was more about falling on his sword for her. 

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11 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Joss looked down on Spencer when he worked at Kelly's but now that Carly owns it, she's happy to work there. Carly looked down on Kelly's but now that it's hers, the people are better than at the Metro Court. You have to give them points for looking at the best of things.

They are both so awful. Carly prattling on about how the Kelly's customers are "the salt of the earth"? Everyone goes to Kelly's, you ding-dong. You can't get a decent BLT at the MetroCourt! That comment is also grossly condescending, not that I'm surprised. 

16 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Curtis gets the prize for being the biggest baby

I just can't with him.

Thank you, Marshall, for explaining to Portia, the doctor, why Curtis is acting like such an asshole. I'm not sure comparing Marshall's diagnosis with Curtis's works, though. There is a lot more information about paralysis now than there was for schizophrenia back then, and paralysis isn't genetic.

5 minutes ago, ffwbe said:

Wasn’t Drew’s deal supposed to be a terrible one for him because he was making sure Carly skated? It had nothing to do with the judge being biased. I never got how that made sense but they made it clear that the deal he agreed to was more about falling on his sword for her. 

The original plea bargain, yes. Everyone was surprised he was sentenced to a lot more time and to Pentonville instead of the country club prison.

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More about Marshall explaining Curtis to Portia: I'm irritated we haven't seen any onscreen discussion with Curtis about him maybe not being able to get it up. We can talk about the wimmins infertility issues in minute detail, but Jasus forbid the word impotence is said aloud. No, we have to tap-dance around it. 

Grow up, Show.

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1 hour ago, dubbel zout said:

I'm irritated we haven't seen any onscreen discussion with Curtis about him maybe not being able to get it up.

Given how Curtis is reacting to his inability to box and other sports  activities he used to do, I'm not sure I'd want to see his reaction to that.

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I read an article earlier today about viewers complaining about the terrible writing ( since the strike) on GH and Y&R. I cannot disagree about that but the worst writing for years IMO is for B&B. They’ll go for weeks and weeks saying the same lines. I have said before that when they have the table reads every day, their scripts say “Ditto”.

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1 hour ago, statsgirl said:
3 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

I'm irritated we haven't seen any onscreen discussion with Curtis about him maybe not being able to get it up.

Given how Curtis is reacting to his inability to box and other sports  activities he used to do, I'm not sure I'd want to see his reaction to that.

He'll be insufferable, as always. What bothers me is the lack of parity in these kinds of issues. Of course, I'm pretty sure whatever problems he has will be quickly resolved, even before he starts to walk again, because the show refuses to let the men show any sort of sexual problems.

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Culture Check: How can we discuss a character's or actor's appearance without objectifying them? How can we express likes or dislikes and still respect an individual's humanity or be mindful that a character represents a person someone else might relate to or identify with?

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