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Episode Discussion II: The TFGH


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Culture Check: How can we discuss a character's or actor's appearance without objectifying them? How can we express likes or dislikes and still respect an individual's humanity or be mindful that a character represents a person someone else might relate to or identify with?

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16 minutes ago, susannah said:

I don't think Spencer's attitude, not Michael, though his is bad too, is reasonable since he has installed himself as Ace's defacto parent, when he has zero right to. Only Esme can decide who will be in Ace's life, and anyone being all demanding and entitled can be last on the list. Spencer considers himself superior to Esme, including being a better "parent." I wish he would fall off a cliff. 

I hear you but Esme hasn’t objected recently. In the beginning, she did but she’s come to rely on him as her child’s father too. She’s helped him develop that attitude because the boundaries were never made clear and she just let it happen! 
 

It reminds me of Carly’s situation years ago. I (foolishly) thought she would return home and want to get her son away from Jason and remind him he wasn’t the boy’s father. I thought that was gonna be an interesting plot but they took another route. Anyway……Esme should be establishing her independence more and relying less on Spencer but I think she likes him as her son’s father. As Spencer, they have a routine, and Esme is fine with it! Also, the show wants to keep her as a problem for Sprina, which can only go so far. 

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I agree that someone needs to be saying those things to Spencer, what are his life goals? what does he want to do next with his life?  What does he want even now other than being charming to Trina and the occasional babysitting? After all, Esme holds a fulltime job while being a mom to Ace and now Laura and Kevin are back to help.

But it shouldn't be Trina, his new girlfriend. It should be Laura or Alexis since Nik isn't there, or even Valentine if he didn't have his Charlotte problem. Or Stella. I'd even take Portia as much as I don't like her manipulation of Esme and her attitude to Spencer.  Trina should be Spencer's partner, his equal, not his therapist or the adult in his life telling him to grow up.

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1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

I agree that someone needs to be saying those things to Spencer, what are his life goals? what does he want to do next with his life? 

The "what do you want to do with your life?!" makes me think of the beginning of the video for "We're Not Gonna Take It!" by Twisted Sister.

Yes, I know I just dated myself, but there it is. Hee.

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Not sure why Trina didn't already know Spencer had no goals.  He's told her education is just a piece of paper she didn't need, tried to get her to leave during when she was working on a paper, ditch school first week.  All he's interested in is his money and being heir and throwing his entitlement around. 

This isn't suddenly new, unless she was blind to who he is and just thinks she can fix him. 

While it's good he be there to be a big brother, he's not Ace"s father. He has no right to tell Esme how and what to do with Ace.  She should move out of Laura's on her own, she has a job and Ace is in daycare. No reason for her to stay there. 

Sonny's private island was the safe place they'd go when danger and Blaze just randomly walks in? How? Kristina needs better story than Blaze and Molly surrogacy.

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1 hour ago, WendyCR72 said:

The "what do you want to do with your life?!" makes me think of the beginning of the video for "We're Not Gonna Take It!" by Twisted Sister.

Actually, I had the Cindy Lauper moment, "My father yells 'whatcha going to do with your life?'".  And I would pay a huge sum of money to never hear "Girls Just Want to Have Fun" ever again. 

Clothing.  Loved Laura's red blouse.

Jordan, you might want to line-dry rather than put stuff in the dryer.  (I know, it's supposed to look like that, but it's a hideous look.)

MWSnap513.jpg

Edited by ciarra
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2 hours ago, ciarra said:

Jordan, you might want to line-dry rather than put stuff in the dryer.  (I know, it's supposed to look like that, but it's a hideous look.)

OMG I missed seeing that! It totally looks like it shrunk in the dryer. Not a good look.

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It was pleasant( for an episode) not to have to deal with the Carly/Sonny histronics which generally end up bleeding into the next scenes.

Wonderful to have Genie back.  And those scenes with JpS were the jam. Felicia dispensed great advice (but it's always easier to dispense than to mete it out).  While Maxie's brows have improved a bit, they still stick out and could use a bit trimming of trimming and less of a severe arch.  Alexis' office is expanding but am still on the fence about some of the props in her office.  But how realistic is it for a judge going to voluntarily go - without counsel - to an interview at a paper called 'the Invader'? 

Also enjoyed Anna and Jordan scenes.  They seem to work well together. 

I'll pull up a table of one - but ME/RH are hamming it up and their scenes brings a smile to my face even though there's not much there-there. [And I am one of the ones that routinely complains about this show's generational load balancing issues.] Meanwhile, the bump (Esme) on the highway to happiness for Trina/Spencer, doesn't seem to be headed towards a plot line soon so it'll be more months of this repetitive drivel.   

I liked the painting of birds hanging over Valentin's fireplace (perhaps he bought it from the avian exhibit currently on display at Ava's gallery).

Nice to see GH ranked #8 on Hulu's top 15 shows.   

 

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I think the only storylines available for Esme are; Nicholas returns and wants his son, or she regains her memories and hides it.  Or, both.   So until one or both of those things happens, she is just a bump, that's true.  I find her incredibly boring.  A plot point for Sprina.  

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8 hours ago, sunnyface said:

But how realistic is it for a judge going to voluntarily go - without counsel - to an interview at a paper called 'the Invader'? 

It's an interview, not a deposition, so a lawyer isn't required. And the judge could have said no, but he was sweet-talked into the interview so Alexis could have her gotcha moment.

Also, Alexis has worked pretty hard to change the image of the Invader. It's not the sleazy gossip rag it used to be. Lots of media properties keep their original names even if the focus changes.

8 hours ago, sunnyface said:

Also enjoyed Anna and Jordan scenes.  They seem to work well together.

Does Jordan know that Laura is back? I was sort of chuckling during all of her scenes yesterday because Jordan was acting so large and in charge. Though it's nice for a change to see her get a story that doesn't involve her being completely incompetent.

5 hours ago, CeChase said:

I find [Esme] incredibly boring.  A plot point for Sprina.  

Same, and she's not even an interesting plot point for Spencer and Trina. They've been having the same argument over her since the day Spencer decided he wanted to be in Ace's life.

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1 hour ago, dubbel zout said:

It's an interview, not a deposition, so a lawyer isn't required. And the judge could have said no, but he was sweet-talked into the interview so Alexis could have her gotcha moment.

I'm so over this stupid 'get out of jail free' card they're making up out of thin air for Drew.  So now the judge has to be corrupt/in a billionaire's pocket.  And absolutely no reason why a billionaire would want to be hard on white collar crime, but sure.

Edited by Cheyanne11
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1 hour ago, Cheyanne11 said:

I'm so over this stupid 'get out of jail free' card they're making up out of thin air for Drew.  So now the judge has to be correct/in a billionaire's pocket. 

Half points for trying (lamely) to tie into current events?

It's hard to remember that this nonsense all started with Michael and Drew stupidly trying to merge Aurora and ELQ so they could oust Valentin as CEO. 

Ordinarily I'd say the writers should just give up on writing business/legal stories if they can't be bothered to watch half an hour of CNBC or do the occasional Google search but then all we'd be left with would be babies, illnesses (which they also rarely bother Googling past the first few paragraphs) and the biannual paternity shuffle.  

To be fair, they did okay with Leo's story and have finally delivered on Sprina. They brought back Tracy and I'm mildly interested in where mini-psycho Charlotte's story goes. So there's that?

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32 minutes ago, ciarra said:

Interesting they haven't blathered on about the surrogate pregnancy.  TJ mentioned it, but we haven't been given the manic babbling from Molly.  Yet.

Shh! With any luck, maybe the writers forgot about it. Let's don't remind them! Not only the manic babbling of the world revolving around Molly, and the baby I am feeling very sorry for, but more crucifying of Kristina, for breathing, would follow.

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I couldn't figure out why Drew was asking Liz  about her kids since he barely realizes that he has one of his own, And then I remembered BM's Drew and how involved with the kids he was.

Yeah, like Aiden needs Drew to ask Carly if he can sell his good at her cafe. 1. Aiden should do it himself if he wants to have a business and 2. isn't he Carly's cousin on his own as Lucky's son?

"Why do you think it's revenge rather than justice?"  I'm really tired of Anna's hair shirt.

Alexis really blew it being so ham-handed.  This 'blackmail the judge into a lighter sentence' is such a stupid idea. She was right that she overdid it, Gregory is wrong, and the judge pulling Drew's file is lazy writing. I doubt that the judges that Pro Publica named are reconsidering their files.  Once again, poor, poor Drew and Carly, such overpunishment.

Laura and Kevin each delivering some home truths to the grandkids.

LOL at Giant Baby being on the 99th percentile. Nice lampshading.

Biggest disappointment of the episode -- Robert and Diane in what the show considered to be cute banter and deciding to give their relationship another try.

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1 hour ago, YaddaYadda said:

Judge Kim just rocked my world. Ms Davis you belong in a prison cell next to Drew Cain. Preach.

ETA: Never mind, judge is a wimp.

aww. did he crack too?

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3 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Biggest disappointment of the episode -- Robert and Diane in what the show considered to be cute banter and deciding to give their relationship another try.

It was so uncomfortable to watch those scenes. And why is Diane expecting that wiping the slate clean is going to make a difference? She and Robert have done that before and it didn't work.

The Charlotte-Laura talk was pretty good. I like that the point was made that Charlotte had been away from PC for a while and her friends were in a different place.

Why is Valentin still lying to Anna about Charlotte? Does he really enjoy listening to her whinge and moan about how she deserves all of this? 

2 minutes ago, Daisy said:

aww. did he crack too?

Of course.

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Martin folds like a cheap suit under Michael's ~formidable presence.

Judge cracks even though Alexis goes too OTT.

Where the fuck is the drama when things always go in favor of the Carlys--and we all KNOW that's how it's going to go.  There's never more than a minute when we're like 'oh, will their obscene, bullying luck finally change?'  

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Why would Gregory think that Alexis was "masterful"? That interview/gotcha could have been  done better by a high school kid. Alexis practically blackmailing the judge to get Drew out of jail was the least subtle thing I've seen on TV that wasn't an SNL skit. Is her argument supposed to be "Well, we know you're corrupt, so here's another corrupt thing for you to do so we won't tell everyone that you're corrupt"? When people do this kind of thing successfully, they typically have at least a little finesse - Alexis's way is like trying to catch a fish by madly grabbing at them instead of using a lure.

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I am so over Anna's cowering and whining. That is not who Anna is. Valentin needs to tell her it is his kid after her, so Anna can get on with her life and they get Charlotte some help.

Spencer has gone from "I'm entitled to be in Ace's life" to " I WILL be in Ace's life, whether his mother wants that or not. I will browbeat and control Esme, and I will not listen to anything about having no legal rights."  It's bordering on abuse now. Esme needs to stand up to him more, and tell him what's what, and especially find out that he thinks what he wants is more important than her parental rights. I don't even know why he was allowed to take that parenting class, not being a parent.

The bit with Robert and Diane was cringy and painful. Just no.

I agree that Aiden should ask and contract with Carly himself about selling his cupcakes. I wonder what the law would be about selling food made in a home kitchen in a commercial venue.

I think the pussyfooting around Charlotte needs to stop. They need to be direct with what they know to be true, and not just with a one talk and done either. She needs to make restitution to Anna. So here are questions, should Charlotte face criminal arson charges? Is it Laura's obligation to disclose, as mayor? What would happen if she didn't, and it came out?

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29 minutes ago, susannah said:

Spencer has gone from "I'm entitled to be in Ace's life" to " I WILL be in Ace's life, whether his mother wants that or not. I will browbeat and control Esme, and I will not listen to anything about having no legal rights."

I laughed at how peevish he got with Kevin. Trina gave him an earful about that yesterday, and today Kevin calmly points out that Esmé is exercising her parental rights. Spencer just sputters that he's going to be in Ace's life, DAMMIT. Hee. 

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So, at the end of her illustrious super spy career, a teenager is doing Anna in. Whatev. At this point I AM rooting for Charlotte/Victor. I mean, Anna pathetically trying to chat up her bodyguard and being afraid to be alone in her hotel room is just embarrassing. ...But not as embarrassing as Diane acting like she has "hand"* with Robert.

If Spencer actually had a life, he wouldn't be so laser focused on Ace. He has way too much time on his hands so it's easy for him to obsess. He has become irrational and petulant.

*TM George Constanza 

 

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The more that I think about it, I don’t think Spencer is involved in Ace’s life to give him a father figure. I think he’s trying to give himself the family that he felt he’s lacked all these years because he’s lonely and doesn’t have a lot going on. He has Trina but he can’t follow her around all day and night either. She has school, a job, friends, and parents around so she can’t devote all her time to him. I know he’s not the father but there are actual parents that do that with their kids. Make them their whole world and expect them to give them the family they lacked elsewhere, essentially their emotional support kids. It tends to be as damaging to those kids in a different way because it puts way too much pressure on them to constantly be around and worry about what’ll happen to their parents as they get older and have a life of their own.  

Edited by ffwbe
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4 hours ago, statsgirl said:

Alexis really blew it being so ham-handed.  This 'blackmail the judge into a lighter sentence' is such a stupid idea

I;m not sure that it made any sense:

Alexis:  Did you go on a fishing trip with some rich muckety muck

Kim:  None of your business

Alexis:  You need to release Drew immediately or I will expose this interview 

Me  What interview?  You asked a question, he said no.  

4 hours ago, statsgirl said:

the judge pulling Drew's file is lazy writing

How hilarious would it be iif he pulled the file in order to give Drew more time rather than less.  

4 hours ago, statsgirl said:

Kevin each delivering some home truths to the grandkids

I thought Spencer was being a complete douchebag to Kevin.  Spencer honey, Grandma and Step grandpa let you live in their house rent free.  Shut your pie hole and be respectful to Grandpa Kevin.  

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Everything with Spencer and his sense of entitlement with Ace is annoying.  He's thisclose to pissing on Cute Giant Baby's leg to mark him.

Legit loathe that Alexis became a Carly today with blackmailing a judge.  Not a good look.

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1 hour ago, ffwbe said:

The more that I think about it, I don’t think Spencer is involved in Ace’s life to give him a father figure. I think he’s trying to give himself the family that he felt he’s lacked all these years because he’s lonely and doesn’t have a lot going on.

Exactly what came to my mind as I watched the today's scenes with Kevin.   Spencer just wants a stable family life and he thinks he can have that with his brother.   I see a battle coming with Esme.  I sure hope it doesn't lead to Spencer deciding to promise Esme they'll be together just as a way to keep Ace in his life.   

I was afraid that poor baby was going to start crying each time Nicholas interacted with him.   He should tone that down a bit; that poor kid looked scared to death a couple of times.  

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Spencer had no right to have to be informed of doctors appointments. Good for Esme and Kevin for pointing that out.  

Spencer says he gets it, but he really doesn't.  He is making Esme the likable one.  He's also way too over the top with the baby. 

Ugh at Diane and Robert, bring back Holly or put him with Anna. 

Liz and Drew are better than him and Carly, but his asking about the boys seems so fake when it was so real and natural with real Drew. 

Edited by Artsda
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3 hours ago, ffwbe said:

The more that I think about it, I don’t think Spencer is involved in Ace’s life to give him a father figure. I think he’s trying to give himself the family that he felt he’s lacked all these years because he’s lonely and doesn’t have a lot going on.

I was thinking that too. And as Kevin the psychiatrist was no doubt thinking, Spencer is probably trying to soothe his own inner child by lavishing this love on Ace. Ordinarily the motive wouldn't matter because Ace would benefit, but it just seems to be making Spencer erratic. 

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Laura and Charlotte.

Laura is clearly on a fishing expedition, questioning Charlotte by not questioning her.  IDK, I think teens, especially these days, are more perceptive. 

I also found it awkward how Laura brought up her teenage past without mentioning that time she accidentally(?) murdered someone. 

Seriously, Robert, you can do better.  Anyone warm and breathing would be better than Diane Miller, defender of mobsters.  Oh, and that Olivia woman, no, not her.

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2 hours ago, ciarra said:

Seriously, Robert, you can do better.  Anyone warm and breathing would be better than Diane Miller, defender of mobsters.  Oh, and that Olivia woman, no, not her.

Molly, Portia, Lois and Lucy would be just as horrible. Robert's good choices are Holly or Anna, preferably Holly.

I don't think Spencer is showing love to Ace, he is showing his dominance over him, and I think someone mentioned that the baby looked frightened when Spencer was grabbing at him. I agree.

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Is it possible they are getting to Spencer having some kind of breakdown? All of a sudden he is off with his behavior and expectations with Ace.  And the big sign for me is his hair.  It’s all puffy and crazy. He was always very neat. J like the look but are they trying to convey some crazy coming?  

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13 hours ago, ciarra said:

I also found it awkward how Laura brought up her teenage past without mentioning that time she accidentally(?) murdered someone. 

Maybe she didn't want to "normalize" murder for Charlotte. She doesn't want Charlotte to think, "If Grandma did it and she's ok, then maybe it wouldn't be too bad; after all, I'm sure I'm smarter than Grandma, I probably wouldn't even get caught".

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5 hours ago, jacourt said:

Is it possible they are getting to Spencer having some kind of breakdown? All of a sudden he is off with his behavior and expectations with Ace.  And the big sign for me is his hair.  It’s all puffy and crazy. He was always very neat. J like the look but are they trying to convey some crazy coming?  

I thought Spencer's head was going to expand and he was going to start spitting venom, like a cobra or something, at Kevin.

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The problem is that Spencer has nothing in his life other than his anger at his father, which makes him want to take care of Ace, and his relationship with Trina so he invests far too much time and energy into those two things. Now that they are back, Laura and maybe Kevin need to sit him down and  come up with a life plan for him other than spending his trust fund. At the very least take some finance classes so that he can properly handle the Cassadine estate till Nik takes it back.

13 hours ago, susannah said:

Molly, Portia, Lois and Lucy would be just as horrible. Robert's good choices are Holly or Anna, preferably Holly.

Maxie is too young but Alexis is free at the moment when she's not helping Gregory cross things off his bucket list. So is Tracy since it looks like JE is sticking around for a while. Ava's relationship with Austin is a dud so she's available as well.

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I'm glad that Kevin had Esme's back with Ace's doctor appointment.  It was the right thing to do for both Spencer and Esme.  And it's easier to imagine them developing a relationship,  even if we never get to see it onscreen.  Kevin is the only normal family member she has besides Ace and maybe someday Steven Lars. And Kevin hasn't been doing much besides holding Laura's pocketbook. 🙂

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20 hours ago, Cheyanne11 said:

Legit loathe that Alexis became a Carly today with blackmailing a judge.  Not a good look.

totally agree.  I wanted it to come out that she got bad info and that the judge was going to turn her in for blackmail.  that would have been hilarious.  And I honestly don't know the answer to this question. Can a judge commute a sentence that has already been imposed?

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3 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Can a judge commute a sentence that has already been imposed?

I'm not sure if the sentencing judge can do it, but it can be done. Of course it helps to be innocent (which Drew most definitely is not) or there was some travesty of justice (ditto). 

 

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5 hours ago, Katy M said:

totally agree.  I wanted it to come out that she got bad info and that the judge was going to turn her in for blackmail.  that would have been hilarious.  And I honestly don't know the answer to this question. Can a judge commute a sentence that has already been imposed?

That's how Michael got out of prison. Dante went to see the judge that threw him in jail and he got Michael released into his custody.

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6 hours ago, tessaray said:

I'm glad that Kevin had Esme's back with Ace's doctor appointment. ...Kevin is the only normal family member she has besides Ace

I forget about Kevin being related and that both Kevin and Laura are related to Ace.

6 hours ago, Katy M said:

Maxie with Robert would be superweird. 

Especially since I think the writers believe that Robert is too old for Anna.

9 hours ago, KittyQ said:

Maybe she didn't want to "normalize" murder for Charlotte. She doesn't want Charlotte to think, "If Grandma did it and she's ok, then maybe it wouldn't be too bad

I thought it was weird, Laura bringing up her teenage years at all.  I didn't find Laura's evasive, tangential speech was very helpful in finding out what's going on with Charlotte.

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On 10/18/2023 at 11:08 AM, tessaray said:

Cyrus was lurking in the hospital corridors when I came off the barge a couple of years ago and now he's back. I didn't miss him roaming around threatening people. (I do miss the pony tail and scruff.) And wimpy cringing doesn't suit RoHo. Two thumbs down for this development.

And can I borrow a couple of thumbs down for Mason still being alive? I really wanted Ava to grab Dante's gun and finish him off. 🙂

 

It got really tiresome when Martin moved their mother to a secret location and Cyrus was strong arming every other random character to find her for them.  Mostly people who were not investigators and had no involvement with it.

cyrus is a good character played by a decent actor.  But sadly hamstrung by weak, lazy writing.

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On 10/18/2023 at 12:54 PM, Winston Wolfe said:

Martin was pretty chill until he folded like a wet paper bag under Dumbdelore's weak threats. Now he's ruined and I no longer crave Hummingbird Cake. Although with my a1c level, that was probably always a no-no.

So unrealistic.  A real lawyer, especially a prominent attorney like Martin, would verbally destroy SLS for his weak, empty threat.  Especially since SLS has deep pockets.  Seriously, can anyone imagine someone like Alan Dershowitz caving into a whiney little bitch like Michael? 
 

Not a chance.

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On 10/18/2023 at 1:02 PM, Katy M said:

Yes, thanks for reminding me. I'm always a day behind, but yesterday when I watched Monday, I couldn't believe how much of a snivelling coward he was.  And, you know what, Martin. If you get disbarred, that's your own fault. If Sonny were actually torturing him, or Michael had a gun on him, that would have been different, but he was in no immediate danger.  I don't even know if that would be something Sonny would be willing to kill or torture a lawyer over anyway.  I mean, yeah, Sonny's a bad guy, but he does have his own imposed limits that he doesn't seem to be willing to cross.

I don’t see Sonny resorting to torture to sweat a lawyer like Martin for doing his job honorably.  But with these writers, who knows?

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On 10/19/2023 at 7:38 PM, Artsda said:

Not sure why Trina didn't already know Spencer had no goals.  He's told her education is just a piece of paper she didn't need, tried to get her to leave during when she was working on a paper, ditch school first week.  All he's interested in is his money and being heir and throwing his entitlement around. 

This isn't suddenly new, unless she was blind to who he is and just thinks she can fix him. 

While it's good he be there to be a big brother, he's not Ace"s father. He has no right to tell Esme how and what to do with Ace.  She should move out of Laura's on her own, she has a job and Ace is in daycare. No reason for her to stay there. 

Sonny's private island was the safe place they'd go when danger and Blaze just randomly walks in? How? Kristina needs better story than Blaze and Molly surrogacy.

True.  Spencer has no goals, other than trying to de facto parent his baby brother.  Usually people like him get into a prestigious college and take some kind of degree.  He should be learning to run Cassadine businesses, or at least be invoked with some large scale philanthropic organization.  Again, he’s another character hobbled by weak writing.

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On 10/18/2023 at 3:17 PM, TVbitch said:

Portia is too thirsty. Girl, get a Good Vibrations catalog and let Curtis adjust.

Glad Dante was put on leave. I mean, he shows up at the cliff, shoots Mason, then instead of waiting for local law enforcement and EMTs, or escorting the perp and the hostage to the hospital, or examining the scene, or having the hostage give an official statement... he TAKES THE HOSTAGE TO CARLY'S HOUSE to see Avery?! Where he sits and explains the entire event... TO CARLY?!! Dante, you are my kind of sexy, but you are losing me as a cop. 

Nothing is a higher priority for any business event or law enforcement situation than keeping Carly apprised, and getting her approval.

 

Seriously, can we get the writers replaced?  I can write better shit than this.

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12 hours ago, Suicidy said:

Nothing is a higher priority for any business event or law enforcement situation than keeping Carly apprised, and getting her approval.

 

Seriously, can we get the writers replaced?  I can write better shit than this.

the episodes with the regular writers will be starting soon, but honestly, I think I'll miss the scabs.

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On 10/18/2023 at 11:42 AM, susannah said:

Ava could  have jammed a lollipop down Mason's throat, also! 

OLTL had Chandy (the chandelier that did in one of the Ford brothers), I think we need Lolly.

Friday had promise since it was devoid of Carlys, though not sure if Drew is a true Carly or just adjacent.  CH and TR have good chemistry together, but the flirting/not flirting writing is just so one-note.  Diane is pretty lightly recurring so this little sub-plot isn’t really one that I care about because I don’t think it’s going anywhere.  

It really does annoy me that the writers had Elizabeth hand-wave Charlotte’s bullying of Aiden with a line or two at Drew’s bedside. Contrast this to the months of histrionics from others surrounding reporting of a crime.  In the GH in my head, Elizabeth would be very skeptical of Charlotte and be the one who unravels her involvement (if any - I’m still not fully convinced this isn’t a big red herring) in terrorizing Anna.  Speaking of, I enjoy watching FH but sad/paranoid Anna isn’t my favorite.  Bring on Badass Anna, please.

I like the Valentin living room set, but that coffee table is crowded.  I do really think they could lose the oversized ashtray in 2023.

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