S02.E09: Time Stands Still

[SunnyBeBe]

Yeah, it does seem to be that not wanting a child is somehow a bad snag in the relationship and the person against it somehow has a problem that once it is cured, they WILL want a child. So, love has to win out and the only way is for the child rejecting person to see the light.  I mean, if you really open up your heart , you will certainly want a baby, right? lol  My question is if children are so resilient,  why are there so many f'd up adults walking around? 

[tennisgurl]

The older lady knowing that the dog isnt her dog and Gary doing some chores for her in no way makes it alright that he and Maggie stole the women's dog. That was still an awful thing he did, and he is just lucky that things worked out with the shelter dog. And while I dont really like Maggie this season, Gary was a real dick to her not wanting to accept the ring for the engagement that he never even meant to ask her for. It seemed very "you owe me for taking care of you when you were sick!" which seemed like really asshole behavior. 

[gonzosgirrl]

3 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

For all that Gary and Maggie are aggravating, I actually thought the breakup scene was pretty well done, and that they respective "sides" were both valid (though Maggie is not "without cancer," just without imminent threat of death). I hated that Gary went right after a woman, but that has been established as his method of soothing himself.

Doesn't the bolded also apply to Gary as well though? They seem to mostly forget that he also had cancer and chemo, and recurrence is always a possibility. I can almost forgive him Colin and the old lady, as she does seem genuinely happy with not!Colin, and Gary is so very, very messed up. Of all of them though, I feel that he's the most altruistic and least self-centered. I mean yeah, his speech was all about what their group dysfunction was doing to him, but it was also true that fixing him meant fixing them. Regardless of the motivation, he really has been their for all of them since day one of the show.  Even this confrontation of his came about because Gary & Katherine asked him to intervene with Delilah.

You just know that hookup is going to bite him on the ass though. Didn't Maggie say she didn't want to tell anyone about the breakup yet, just in case it didn't take (paraphrased)? I give it until the end of the next episode before she finds out just how fast he, uhh, self-soothed with the barfly.

14 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

And while I dont really like Maggie this season, Gary was a real dick to her not wanting to accept the ring for the engagement that he never even meant to ask her for.

I didn't get that at all. To me, he was hurt/taken aback that she had such an averse reaction to it, even without him actually asking her anything.  Not gonna lie, when he asked her if she said she wanted to spend the rest of her life with him because she thought it was only going to be six months, I died a little for him.

[Brian Cronin]

7 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Doesn't the bolded also apply to Gary as well though? They seem to mostly forget that he also had cancer and chemo, and recurrence is always a possibility.

Technically true, but once you've had a recurrence, the odds go up a lot that you'll have another in the future. Not to the point where she's screwed, of course, just that she and Gary are in much different positions, cancer-wise. 

But yes, you're never truly cured of breast cancer. The only time you're ever actually "cured" is when you die from something else. So yes, it's definitely fair for that to always be in the back of Gary's head. 

[Clanstarling]

26 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Doesn't the bolded also apply to Gary as well though? They seem to mostly forget that he also had cancer and chemo, and recurrence is always a possibility. I can almost forgive him Colin and the old lady, as she does seem genuinely happy with not!Colin, and Gary is so very, very messed up. Of all of them though, I feel that he's the most altruistic and least self-centered. I mean yeah, his speech was all about what their group dysfunction was doing to him, but it was also true that fixing him meant fixing them. Regardless of the motivation, he really has been their for all of them since day one of the show.  Even this confrontation of his came about because Gary & Katherine asked him to intervene with Delilah.

You just know that hookup is going to bite him on the ass though. Didn't Maggie say she didn't want to tell anyone about the breakup yet, just in case it didn't take (paraphrased)? I give it until the end of the next episode before she finds out just how fast he, uhh, self-soothed with the barfly.

I didn't get that at all. To me, he was hurt/taken aback that she had such an averse reaction to it, even without him actually asking her anything.  Not gonna lie, when he asked her if she said she wanted to spend the rest of her life with him because she thought it was only going to be six months, I died a little for him.

Absolutely. They had a scene early on where Gary had his regular checkup and was worried - but then they've pretty much dropped the narrative that he too lives with the threat of a recurrence.

I had the same reaction to his question to Maggie - particularly when she sat there silently for a long time. Not going to lie, as much as Gary can be a bit much, he's my favorite (along with Katherine). He's done and said stupid things, but the actor just brings it for me.

[cardigirl]

4 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I'm not sure I'd lay all property destruction on teenagers (having seen grown ass adults do similar things), but in Sophie's case, I'm kind of okay with it. Guitars were her connection with Eddie, and he betrayed her trust just as deeply as her mother did.

Oh, yes, of course he did, and she'll be allowed to get away with it, because a) she's underage, and b) she's a she.  Unfair but that's the way of the world. 

Plus, if I heard a noise in my studio where I have several tens of thousands of dollars worth of equipment housed, I would have it locked and I would not check it out with a golf club, I would have called the cops on her ass.  

I think it might have been more dramatic, even, to have called the cops and then have her screaming at him as they hauled her away.  Fix that Eddie.  

Edited November 22, 2019 by cardigirl

[CindyScott]

On 11/17/2019 at 10:27 AM, nexxie said:

Sounds popcorn-worthy! 🍿

On 11/14/2019 at 5:21 PM, saoirse said:

Airing Thursday, November 21, 2019.

1 hour ago, SpiritSong said:

I don't think Gary is a narcissist, but that dude is seriously messed up. As a therapist or psychologist or whatever the hell Maggie is, shouldn't she have been aware of that? But then, this is a woman who steals an old lady's dog, so... I think the main problem is they're both assholes. But then so are all the other adult characters on the show except Rome, Regina and Katherine.

Add me to the chorus of those disgusted by Regina suddenly wanting to be a mother. Writers on tv shows simply CANNOT wrap their heads around women who do not want to spawn. And I'm certainly no expert, but doesn't it take years to adopt a baby? And from what I've read it's not cheap. Did Rome and Regina come into some money we don't know about? They should take in a foster kid to get an idea of what parenting is like, but of course that would be too realistic for this show. Actually, I'd be good with them learning that there is a 5 year waiting list for an infant, because this show will be cancelled long before then.

[SunnyBeBe]

I know this must have been mentioned on this forum before, but, when I watch this show and look at the title, it always reminds me of the saying,  Death by a million paper cuts.  That's how I feel watching this show.  lol  I think that's what those million little things are supposed to be. 

Edited November 22, 2019 by SunnyBeBe

[iwasish]

3 hours ago, ams1001 said:

My mom had surgery last year and my dad texted us from the waiting room periodically to update us, then she was in the hospital for a few days afterward, and we didn't see her until she got home (I live in the same town and my brother is about half an hour away, and we both easily could have taken time off if we needed to), because she didn't want visitors.

I can't know for sure, not having been in that situation, but I suspect if I were getting chemo I wouldn't want someone like Gary sitting with me the whole time. Might not want anyone, actually, but if I did it would be someone who would just sit quietly and be there. Gary is just too much most of the time.

Also there a lot of other people getting chemo at the same time, some sicker than others, if everyone had a  friend or family member there ( especially a “Gary) it could be too much stimulation. Most folks that I did observe there, either read or sat in quiet thought or perhaps prayer, no one wants a Gary making stupid jokes or gags. 

 

[iwasish]

40 minutes ago, cardigirl said:

Oh, yes, of course he did, and she'll be allowed to get away with it, because a) she's underage, and b) she's a she.  Unfair but that's the way of the world. 

Plus, if I heard a noise in my studio where I have several tens of thousands of dollars worth of equipment housed, I would have it locked and I would not check it out with a golf club, I would have called the cops on her ass.  

I think it might have been more dramatic, even, to have called the cops and then have her screaming at him as they hauled her away.  Fix that Eddie.  

I doubt Eddie is going to press charges. Bad enough he was banging her mom, now she has to look at living breathing proof of it in her little sister.  Then the jackass steps in after her own father kills himself and tries to stand in for him.

I think a lot of Sophie’s reaction also depends on what exactly Delilah told her. Did she say she was planning on dumping Jon for Eddie? Did she say it was a one time thing? Does Sophie believe Jon killed himself because of their relationship.   
 

[tennisgurl]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I didn't get that at all. To me, he was hurt/taken aback that she had such an averse reaction to it, even without him actually asking her anything.  Not gonna lie, when he asked her if she said she wanted to spend the rest of her life with him because she thought it was only going to be six months, I died a little for him.

I can get that, and I have felt for awhile that Maggie is half out the door now that her cancer is in remission, and got super invested in Gary when she thought they didnt have much time together, but he also really overreacted to her reaction. I dont blame her for not wanting to get married after only a year, but the two of them really needed to talk, and he got super angry super quickly and you cant really have a talk at that point. Generally I kind of side with Gary on these kinds of things, but he was pretty harsh pretty quickly here. 

So now her brothers heart guy has yet another secret! When will people learn to stop keeping these huge ass secrets? 

Also, will PJs parents actually take the money so he can go to college now? Or get the help that he needs? Thats almost as bad as the lying to me, maybe even worse. 

[izabella]

7 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

So now her brothers heart guy has yet another secret! When will people learn to stop keeping these huge ass secrets? 

Well, it could be totally ridiculous non-secret, like when Barbara Morgan was so shady about admitting she was Barbara Morgan or that she knew Jon, as if there were something nefarious but there wasn't.

[bybrandy]

1 hour ago, SpiritSong said:

Add me to the chorus of those disgusted by Regina suddenly wanting to be a mother. Writers on tv shows simply CANNOT wrap their heads around women who do not want to spawn. And I'm certainly no expert, but doesn't it take years to adopt a baby? And from what I've read it's not cheap. Did Rome and Regina come into some money we don't know about? They should take in a foster kid to get an idea of what parenting is like, but of course that would be too realistic for this show. Actually, I'd be good with them learning that there is a 5 year waiting list for an infant, because this show will be cancelled long before then.

Regina and Rome are non white so their waiting time goes way, way,, way down significantly  If they adopt from foster care the adoption is almost nothing. Private adoption with a black child takes time and costs money but on average nearly  20,000 dollars less than adopting a white child (no, seriously).   A back newborn averages about 16,000 dollars in private adoptin vs 35,000 for a white newborn.   Also while Regina said baby we don't know what they're really looking for if they are looking for a toddler (still often considered babies) their options go up.  If they're looking for children born with health problems or to addicted mothers their odds go up.   in 2015 6% of adoptive families were blak where 24% of children waiting for adoption were black.   So the odds are in Regina and Rome's favor.

But while Regina said baby she also said he wanted to save somebody and to me that indicates somebody a little older who might have less of a shot at being adopted.

Thought the idea that an adoptive parent is saving a child is pretty offensive to a lot of adopted people.   

Edited November 22, 2019 by bybrandy

[Lady Calypso]

11 minutes ago, izabella said:

Well, it could be totally ridiculous non-secret, like when Barbara Morgan was so shady about admitting she was Barbara Morgan or that she knew Jon, as if there were something nefarious but there wasn't.

Maybe it's as simple as him needing to tell Maggie that he's moving away. After her speech about him now being her only friend, I could see that being the reason....super lame, but a reason, nonetheless.

[bybrandy]

29 minutes ago, iwasish said:

I doubt Eddie is going to press charges.

Won't he have to claim the insurance? 

[Brian Cronin]

10 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Maybe it's as simple as him needing to tell Maggie that he's moving away. After her speech about him now being her only friend, I could see that being the reason....super lame, but a reason, nonetheless.

It's got to be the heart failing, right? Heck, they could even SHOCKINGLY kill him off, for some extra hacky drama.

[Lady Calypso]

1 minute ago, Brian Cronin said:

It's got to be the heart failing, right? Heck, they could even SHOCKINGLY kill him off, for some extra hacky drama.

It's either the heart failing or he's leaving town. Those are the only two possible options for me. Him being in love with Maggie would be the lamest of twists....but this show has gone through with lame twists before so watch that be the secret.

[SpiritSong]

1 hour ago, bybrandy said:

Regina and Rome are non white so their waiting time goes way, way,, way down significantly  If they adopt from foster care the adoption is almost nothing. Private adoption with a black child takes time and costs money but on average nearly  20,000 dollars less than adopting a white child (no, seriously).   A back newborn averages about 16,000 dollars in private adoptin vs 35,000 for a white newborn.   Also while Regina said baby we don't know what they're really looking for if they are looking for a toddler (still often considered babies) their options go up.  If they're looking for children born with health problems or to addicted mothers their odds go up.   in 2015 6% of adoptive families were blak where 24% of children waiting for adoption were black.   So the odds are in Regina and Rome's favor.

But while Regina said baby she also said he wanted to save somebody and to me that indicates somebody a little older who might have less of a shot at being adopted.

Thought the idea that an adoptive parent is saving a child is pretty offensive to a lot of adopted people.   

Interesting. Thanks for the info!

[cardigirl]

1 hour ago, iwasish said:

I doubt Eddie is going to press charges. Bad enough he was banging her mom, now she has to look at living breathing proof of it in her little sister.  Then the jackass steps in after her own father kills himself and tries to stand in for him.

I think a lot of Sophie’s reaction also depends on what exactly Delilah told her. Did she say she was planning on dumping Jon for Eddie? Did she say it was a one time thing? Does Sophie believe Jon killed himself because of their relationship.   
 

I understand all of that, and the pain an affair brings (lived it), but it doesn’t excuse further bad behavior on an injured party’s part. While we all can certainly understand an extreme reaction, destruction of property is an awful thing to do as well.

it just really bugged me, and did not make me sympathetic towards Sophie’s pain in the least. I get that this news upsets her, and tears apart her world view, and that is not a small thing, but that kind of reaction is scary. Maybe that’s where her story is heading. 

[readster]

5 hours ago, izabella said:

None of this PJ-Barbara stuff makes any sense.  There was no reason to hide who his father was.  Truly, no reason at all.  Certainly, once he started asking questions, they could and should have told him, but they should have told him when he was young that his stepfather was raising him because his dad died in 9/11. 

The scene last season with Barbara stalking Delilah and watching the house and saying "but they're so happy" makes absolutely no sense.  There was nothing for her to tell Delilah that would make her unhappy, so why was she dithering in the car as though she had gone over there to tell her some big news and chickened out.  What was that scene about?

And then, when PJ got into school, again, why not say there is money, you can go?  If the reason for not telling him who his father is was to protect PJ, how is denying him an opportunity to follow his dreams a good thing that protects PJ?

That's the point and at that point Barbara and idiot husband didn't know that Delilah had an affair with Jon's friend. Even more, Barbara felt horrible because here Jon was dead, Delilah was pregnant with Charlotte. Yet, her husband was: "Let it be, we don't need this!" What the hell was he so worried about? Seriously, they all come off as very stupid, stupid people and shows just how bad Nash's writing really is. 

[snarkylady]

Did they clarify why Jon left money to Barbara Morgan? 

[Brian Cronin]

36 minutes ago, snarkylady said:

Did they clarify why Jon left money to Barbara Morgan? 

Guilt over not being there for her after Dave's death. 

[iwasish]

3 hours ago, cardigirl said:

I understand all of that, and the pain an affair brings (lived it), but it doesn’t excuse further bad behavior on an injured party’s part. While we all can certainly understand an extreme reaction, destruction of property is an awful thing to do as well.

it just really bugged me, and did not make me sympathetic towards Sophie’s pain in the least. I get that this news upsets her, and tears apart her world view, and that is not a small thing, but that kind of reaction is scary. Maybe that’s where her story is heading. 

I give her a bit more of a break In terms of reaction than I would an adult (meaning a actual participant in the affair).I see her, Danny and Theo  as victims of all their parents mistakes, (including Jon and Katherine). All the people they have trusted and been told will look out for them have lied to them. Maybe Sophie should be more mature, but let’s see how Danny and Theo react. See Gary as an example of someone who has massive issues that appear to go back to being abandoned by his mom. 

[iwasish]

3 hours ago, readster said:

That's the point and at that point Barbara and idiot husband didn't know that Delilah had an affair with Jon's friend. Even more, Barbara felt horrible because here Jon was dead, Delilah was pregnant with Charlotte. Yet, her husband was: "Let it be, we don't need this!" What the hell was he so worried about? Seriously, they all come off as very stupid, stupid people and shows just how bad Nash's writing really is. 

Makes me wonder if Nash didn’t change the PJ storyline after reading fans reactions to the first season. The whole sweater/hair thing didn’t make sense. There could have been hairs of many different origins on it, Jon, Dave, Gary, Danny, Delilah etc, even Colin. You would think the DNA testers might have tested more than one single hair.

[alexvillage]

16 hours ago, cardigirl said:

Oh, yes, of course he did, and she'll be allowed to get away with it, because a) she's underage, and b) she's a she.  Unfair but that's the way of the world. 

Don't forget: white.

The reaction was out of character. Sophie is a brooding type and as shocking the reveal might have hit her, I don't think her reaction would be that extreme. I don't buy those fits of rage coming from a character the writers painted in a very different light. She would definitely act out but in a different way. 

But the whole episode was overacted. It is like the writers wanted to distract from all the ridiculous pleas, the nonsense they wrote and leave us (there is a break until next year, right?) with something OMG!Did you see what happened?!? full of WTF? But not the WTF? in a wow way, but in a it doesn't make sense way.

The direction was also terrible. Everybody was overacting. They really wanted us to focus on the exaggerations instead of the plot holes they created. 

I ca't stand Gary. As already pointed out, he made sure to "be there" for everyone now he blames everyone for his lost job. And again, the writers packaged it in a "friendship and family" speech, as if he is not full of bullshit, as if he is a "uniter". But if you pay attention to what he said, all of it was: I did this for you, for him, for her. You should have done that. I was there for you. I lost my job because of you all. Very narcissistic. He pretends to be rallying the "family" while he is just chastising him for not praising him enough. 

And t emphasize, Regina changing her mind is demeaning for all women. This is patriarchy at its best: women must have a desire to care for a child because that's the function of a female. It was a man's actions that made her "see" how wrong her own instincts were and now she needs to fulfill that duty imposed on all women. All this comes disguised as "let's save a child from a terrible future because we are the ones"

[debraran]

On 11/22/2019 at 12:23 PM, SpiritSong said:

I don't think Gary is a narcissist, but that dude is seriously messed up. As a therapist or psychologist or whatever the hell Maggie is, shouldn't she have been aware of that? But then, this is a woman who steals an old lady's dog, so... I think the main problem is they're both assholes. But then so are all the other adult characters on the show except Rome, Regina and Katherine.

Add me to the chorus of those disgusted by Regina suddenly wanting to be a mother. Writers on tv shows simply CANNOT wrap their heads around women who do not want to spawn. And I'm certainly no expert, but doesn't it take years to adopt a baby? And from what I've read it's not cheap. Did Rome and Regina come into some money we don't know about? They should take in a foster kid to get an idea of what parenting is like, but of course that would be too realistic for this show. Actually, I'd be good with them learning that there is a 5 year waiting list for an infant, because this show will be cancelled long before then.

They should talk to Randall on This is US and see how long and how much paper there will be but  I have a feeling in MLT world, it might happen faster or they will get a "hard to place" child that will add drama later. Regina will be busy with the start up of the restaurant and I'm not sure how much time she would have to take off and Rome I guess doesn't work the same so he'd be the main caregiver unless the child went to daycare. Besides a woman not being able to say No to children (because Nash's wife changed her mind) I feel it will be done for drama only and probably not a "real life" scenario. hope that Rome seeing his doctor next show, a Dr Heller is listed, is to make sure he's in a good place to handle that much responsibility and that babies aren't just cute dolls to put in tiny Bruins uniforms.

Yea and I agree, you steal a dog for Gary and leave but I'm glad she is not with him. The drama was more over the top lately and let Eric get some of it.  I really had hoped Gary owned up to dog but as time goes on it gets more awkward. She wont handle 2 mastiffs although they might be company for each other. lol  I pictured Gary following Maggie (I know a fantasy) and some shows being in both places and Colin being given back to Edna.  Fans noticed he was missing the last show, maybe he escaped again!

I don't know why the job loss was written in, he's a grown man, I'm sure he was talked too about job performance and why having him jobless is a plot device. A bit much.

I almost look forward to Ashley coming back but I wonder what she will add. Nash said "It's a soap, of course she'll be back" .  Maybe a drama is too much for writers.

 

23 hours ago, cardigirl said:

I understand all of that, and the pain an affair brings (lived it), but it doesn’t excuse further bad behavior on an injured party’s part. While we all can certainly understand an extreme reaction, destruction of property is an awful thing to do as well.

it just really bugged me, and did not make me sympathetic towards Sophie’s pain in the least. I get that this news upsets her, and tears apart her world view, and that is not a small thing, but that kind of reaction is scary. Maybe that’s where her story is heading. 

If I had to write it and I'm not a writer, I'd emphasize how the show never had her mourn, a few tears and hugs but she never processed that her dad, whom she loved, left her life one day, before their dance, on a normal day, and jumped off his balcony at lunch (not a Jon thing to do but it did bring ratings in) I'm sure it was on the news and all over the Internet and no one seemed to care about why? Delilah cared about the house , she banished the only person who knew what happened, and never looked for clues. His apartment sat for weeks (months?) before she went there and the simple letter given to them by Ashley only talked about how wonderful Delilah was (gag) Very little for the children or anything personal for them. The Jon they showed I feel wouldn't have done that.

Then while living with "woe is me" Mom, she uses the friends her dad had to keep going and Eddie is her stand in and guitar teacher and funny uncle of sorts. He loved her dad and so did she. Then she finds out her mom who didn't want to look into dads past (she pushed her) had an affair with Eddie, Charley is Eddies and did a horrible thing to her father despite his depression.  Her mother might have pushed her dad when he was the most vulnerable and I'd be upset too. I would have destroyed Delilah's stuff and taken Jon's diorama down from Charley's wall I put up and maybe just told Eddie off without the destroying his guitars.  That action though took away something he loved and hurt him. Delilah might get off easier, time will tell.

The fact they never showed the kids mourning or having counseling makes the writers over the top drama a bit more understandable but I know that's not why they wrote it that way, it was just bad writing.

Edited November 23, 2019 by debraran

[Madding crowd]

I don’t think I have seen a lot of kid mourning scenes on TV, I assume the whole family did mourn Jon. I was just thinking about Rome telling PJ he is family. That’s nice in a big brother way but PJ had no real connection to these people . I like Chandler Riggs but thought it was ridiculous that he appeared at both Theo’s birthday party and Rome’s moms funeral.

Just like Maggie, PJ will now be at all gatherings. They need a better way to have new people join the cast. I do hope we hear more about Jon and his secret life and I don’t blame Delilah for being hurt and confused that her mostly absent husband had a secret apartment, secret financial dealings, an emotional attachment to his assistant and apparently millions of dollars to give to Barbara Morgan. There has to be more to this all in order for Jon to kill him self. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

26 minutes ago, Madding crowd said:

I like Chandler Riggs but thought it was ridiculous that he appeared at both Theo’s birthday party

The excuse for that was Sophie invited him but that still seemed weird. First of all, why would you invite ANYONE to go to your mom's friend's kid's birthday party? And if you did, why would you invite someone you just met?

[nexxie]

So the sweater was worn and washed for years by Jon, but the dna available was the other guy’s? Maybe PJ and Sophie still have some sleuthing to do.

[gonzosgirrl]

28 minutes ago, nexxie said:

So the sweater was worn and washed for years by Jon, but the dna available was the other guy’s? Maybe PJ and Sophie still have some sleuthing to do.

The DNA was Jon's though. That's why PJ believed he was his father, no?

ETA: ignore me, please. Brain fart.😆

Edited November 23, 2019 by gonzosgirrl

[cardigirl]

2 hours ago, debraran said:

If I had to write it and I'm not a writer, I'd emphasize how the show never had her mourn, a few tears and hugs but she never processed that her dad, whom she loved, left her life one day, before their dance, on a normal day, and jumped off his balcony at lunch (not a Jon thing to do but it did bring ratings in) I'm sure it was on the news and all over the Internet and no one seemed to care about why? Delilah cared about the house , she banished the only person who knew what happened, and never looked for clues. His apartment sat for weeks (months?) before she went there and the simple letter given to them by Ashley only talked about how wonderful Delilah was (gag) Very little for the children or anything personal for them. The Jon they showed I feel wouldn't have done that.

Then while living with "woe is me" Mom, she uses the friends her dad had to keep going and Eddie is her stand in and guitar teacher and funny uncle of sorts. He loved her dad and so did she. Then she finds out her mom who didn't want to look into dads past (she pushed her) had an affair with Eddie, Charley is Eddies and did a horrible thing to her father despite his depression.  Her mother might have pushed her dad when he was the most vulnerable and I'd be upset too. I would have destroyed Delilah's stuff and taken Jon's diorama down from Charley's wall I put up and maybe just told Eddie off without the destroying his guitars.  That action though took away something he loved and hurt him. Delilah might get off easier, time will tell.

The fact they never showed the kids mourning or having counseling makes the writers over the top drama a bit more understandable but I know that's not why they wrote it that way, it was just bad writing.

Yes, very true, Jon and Delilah's children have not been allowed to show their own grieving.  

I worry about extreme reactions to being hurt by someone though.  Tit for tat sort of thing, you destroyed something I loved, so I will destroy something of yours.  It's a dangerous way of thinking. And people who say "I don't blame her for wanting to do it" ignore the fact that actually doing it is destructive and dangerous. Extreme reactions to the pain of betrayal can lead to things that can never be taken back. Katherine, I'm sure, felt extreme pain, but she didn't try to destroy anyone (although it sounds like she's going to be feeling some guilt over pushing for the reveal and the way Jon's two other children are responding to the info. Boo.) 

Anyway, I hope it is addressed at some point, that her anger and pain, while understandable, have much more acceptable ways of being addressed. With this show, I'm not sure they will.

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

The DNA was Jon's though. That's why PJ believed he was his father, no? 

PJ's DNA matched the DNA on the sweater, but that DNA was supposedly NOT Jon's, but his best friend's. Apparently, Jon kept the sweater as a memento.

[gonzosgirrl]

3 minutes ago, cardigirl said:

PJ's DNA matched the DNA on the sweater, but that DNA was supposedly NOT Jon's, but his best friend's. Apparently, Jon kept the sweater as a memento.

Doh! Of course you're right. I need coffee, sorry!

Edited November 23, 2019 by gonzosgirrl

[izabella]

15 minutes ago, nexxie said:

So the sweater was worn and washed for years by Jon, but the dna available was the other guy’s? Maybe PJ and Sophie still have some sleuthing to do.

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

The DNA was Jon's though. That's why PJ believed he was his father, no? 

I think the story they are trying to make us believe is that it was Dave's sweater, that was the only thing Jon wanted of Dave's after Dave died, that Jon didn't wear/wash the sweater, and it still had some of Dave's hair on it. 

It's hard for me to believe.  If that is true, it really does not explain why Barbara was so cagey about admitting she was Barbara and that she knew Jon, and all the other cagey things about her story.

If I were PJ, Sophie and Danny, I'd be demanding they, and Charley, all be blood tested to see who is actually related to whom.

[Clanstarling]

33 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

The excuse for that was Sophie invited him but that still seemed weird. First of all, why would you invite ANYONE to go to your mom's friend's kid's birthday party? And if you did, why would you invite someone you just met?

Possibly because you're going to be the only teenager at a kiddie birthday party you're forced to go to by your mom, and you met this guy you think is cute?

22 minutes ago, nexxie said:

So the sweater was worn and washed for years by Jon, but the dna available was the other guy’s? Maybe PJ and Sophie still have some sleuthing to do.

Maybe it was never washed. A stretch - but in some cases, people don't wash items people they loved wore at one time. Does anyone remember if Jon actually wore the sweater, or was it just laying around - or hung up the way his jersey was in Charley's room.

And yeah, the initial caginess and weirdness regarding Barbara Morgan and the father doesn't really fit with this result. Nor does Delilah's blithely living without a care in their house. If I remember correctly, she did get the house back, but there were still money issues.

Edited November 23, 2019 by Clanstarling

[Dowel Jones]

Or maybe Jon and his best friend were long lost, separated fraternal twins and they didn't even know it.  I can see the show going that far over the top.

[mikem]

23 hours ago, iwasish said:

These people are all too enmeshed in each other’s lives, especially Gary.

Yes, a thousand times yes.  I'm sure that DJ Nash thinks that Gary's "You're my family" speech is supposed to be stirring, but it made me feel like the guy has major issues.  He has issues with his mom and doesn't seem to have any blood relatives he is close with, he's had lifelong commitment/intimacy issues with a partner before Maggie, and he's way too invested in this friend group, way more than would be healthy.  And rather than learning something from losing his job, he says he would do it again?  He gets defensive when Maggie wears her "I'm a psychologist and you have issues stemming from your mother" hat, but he really would benefit from meeting with a therapist.

I kind of chuckled at Rome's "You're part of my family now" speech to PJ, because now that PJ is not Jon's son, there's no reason for him to be on the show, and we'll probably never see PJ again.

Why shouldn't Eric have secrets from Maggie?  They hardly know each other, and she's way overstepped boundaries already.

Given that Mitch lied and tried to send Delilah away when she showed up on their doorstep, I'm not sure what Jon was supposed to be doing to be supportive of Barbara that he feels so guilty about.

I agree with the comments above that Barbara Morgan's "Delilah's pregnant, and that makes a difference" remark makes absolutely no sense.

Edited November 23, 2019 by mikem

[debraran]

21 minutes ago, izabella said:

I think the story they are trying to make us believe is that it was Dave's sweater, that was the only thing Jon wanted of Dave's after Dave died, that Jon didn't wear/wash the sweater, and it still had some of Dave's hair on it. 

It's hard for me to believe.  If that is true, it really does not explain why Barbara was so cagey about admitting she was Barbara and that she knew Jon, and all the other cagey things about her story.

If I were PJ, Sophie and Danny, I'd be demanding they, and Charley, all be blood tested to see who is actually related to whom.

Correct me if I'm wrong, the DNA was not Jon's it was an anonymous hair on the sweater PJ thought was Jon's. It didn't come from Jon's hair brush or whatever. So the hair was Dave's. They just said it was a match for PJ's DNA, not that it matched Jon's.

It was a very unscientific test that most of them should have known with all the DNA info the last couple of decades. I don't think it's odd Jon never washed the sweater, I think fans are forgetting that sweater wasn't in his home most of the time, it was in his hidden apartment. Nothing there was washed. We never got a tour, only saw part of living room. I personally would have loved to see the bedroom, etc and any other stuff he had around. More interesting than Who is Barbara Morgan drama. : )

[Starlight925]

When Gary was giving his "What about THIS family???" speech, I wanted to throw things at the t.v.

The focus should be completely on Charlie, and Charlie's well-being alone.  Charlie is the innocent child in all of this mess.

I find this show to be so contrived, and unfortunately not the Thirtysomething, This is Us type of grown-up friendships/family that I was hoping for.  I continue to watch, but I'm constantly struggling to stay interested.  Like, I leave each episode on my DVR longer each time before watching.

Edited November 23, 2019 by Sterling

[Mrs Shibbles]

4 hours ago, izabella said:

If I were PJ, Sophie and Danny, I'd be demanding they, and Charley, all be blood tested to see who is actually related to whom.

I can't believe they stopped the Charley blood test.  What if she is not even Eddie's?  That could have saved a lot of heartache from the get go.

This show should be called "A Million Little A-Holes", because I am growing to dislike almost everybody on it.

[cinsays]

1 minute ago, Mrs Shibbles said:

I can't believe they stopped the Charley blood test.  What if she is not even Eddie's?  That could have saved a lot of heartache from the get go.

This show should be called "A Million Little A-Holes", because I am growing to dislike almost everybody on it.

Since they seem to bring Charley over to be cared for by Katherine, she has an opportunity to get some DNA and have it tested, whether Delilah likes it or not.

[alexvillage]

5 hours ago, izabella said:

I think the story they are trying to make us believe is that it was Dave's sweater, that was the only thing Jon wanted of Dave's after Dave died, that Jon didn't wear/wash the sweater, and it still had some of Dave's hair on it. 

It's hard for me to believe.  If that is true, it really does not explain why Barbara was so cagey about admitting she was Barbara and that she knew Jon, and all the other cagey things about her story.

I know nothing about forensics but I believe that DNA deteriorates with time if not kept in a sealed container. I don't think it would be possible for anyone to check from DNA on some hair in a shirt after 17 years, even if Jon had never washed it. But this show. I guess we just have to roll our eyes, bang our heads somewhere, yell at the TV and come here to vent.

The character of Barbara Morgan is one of the worst ever written. There is no reason for the character to exist, she is unlikable and a liar, and the acting is pretty bad to. So much drama to conceal friendship. 

[hoodooznoodooz]

Have they told us the significance of the Constance Zimmer character yet?

[Fable]

1 hour ago, hoodooznoodooz said:

Have they told us the significance of the Constance Zimmer character yet?

Having watched this show, I am going to doubt there is a story there.  Constance was probably on the ABC lot, and they asked her to shoot a few scenes.  

[ams1001]

She was the city council member who told Jon that he wouldn't get the subway vote he needed to save the building with his college apartment in it.

(lifted from a TV Guide article)

[ElectricBoogaloo]

4 hours ago, alexvillage said:

I know nothing about forensics but I believe that DNA deteriorates with time if not kept in a sealed container.

Hahaha, which is exactly why Rome scolded PJ for not putting Jon's sweater into a plastic bag!

[debraran]

Constance was well known and a bait and switch type of thing. Being famous, most thought she had to have a larger part, but she was too classy and well known on the show to be Barbara.

I wonder about the apartment an the sweet woman who lived nearby who knew Jon. Gary or Delilah never did talk to her. Seems his stuff is in garage now. lol

I saw old pics of apartment with "clues" Nash said were so important. What was the Sacred Heart megaphone? Too old for Sophie and she'd have hers, was it a sister, another friend? He kept pointing out things that fell flat. Just the wine made sense.

I always felt the 911 part was not as important and if Jon didn't mortgage his house away and feel his last big business deal was a bust, he'd still be alive. He lived through over a decade of anniversaries of that day, talking about it I'm sure with the kids, having a lot of fun with his friends and it was only 2 years before his death, it came crashing down.  He did make rash decisions but believing Delilah never asked him much about his past is believable now but then seemed odd.

[readster]

58 minutes ago, debraran said:

Constance was well known and a bait and switch type of thing. Being famous, most thought she had to have a larger part, but she was too classy and well known on the show to be Barbara.

I wonder about the apartment an the sweet woman who lived nearby who knew Jon. Gary or Delilah never did talk to her. Seems his stuff is in garage now. lol

I saw old pics of apartment with "clues" Nash said were so important. What was the Sacred Heart megaphone? Too old for Sophie and she'd have hers, was it a sister, another friend? He kept pointing out things that fell flat. Just the wine made sense.

I always felt the 911 part was not as important and if Jon didn't mortgage his house away and feel his last big business deal was a bust, he'd still be alive. He lived through over a decade of anniversaries of that day, talking about it I'm sure with the kids, having a lot of fun with his friends and it was only 2 years before his death, it came crashing down.  He did make rash decisions but believing Delilah never asked him much about his past is believable now but then seemed odd.

It is also that NO ONE else knew about things from Jon. Even after they found the apartment, Gary really wanted to know what the hell was going on and Delilah and everyone else was; "no, forget about it." I mean Jon didn't want the place destroyed by the city. Then why didn't he just move everything to a "secret" storage locker and pay for that. Nash painted it that Jon NEEDED to have the apartment alive and not touched FOREVER. Why? Same goes with Barbara and her husband's reasons for not telling PJ the truth because it would be "hard to tell the truth". No, hell 15 children of fallen firefighters from 9/11 just graduated as firefighters and two as police officers. One of them was barely 2 years old when it happened. He knew the truth. Yet, everyone acted like PJ would put himself in a coma if he knew. 

[debraran]

23 minutes ago, readster said:

It is also that NO ONE else knew about things from Jon. Even after they found the apartment, Gary really wanted to know what the hell was going on and Delilah and everyone else was; "no, forget about it." I mean Jon didn't want the place destroyed by the city. Then why didn't he just move everything to a "secret" storage locker and pay for that. Nash painted it that Jon NEEDED to have the apartment alive and not touched FOREVER. Why? Same goes with Barbara and her husband's reasons for not telling PJ the truth because it would be "hard to tell the truth". No, hell 15 children of fallen firefighters from 9/11 just graduated as firefighters and two as police officers. One of them was barely 2 years old when it happened. He knew the truth. Yet, everyone acted like PJ would put himself in a coma if he knew. 

Yes, Jon wanted his apartment like some hold onto parent's home for the memory, but only Gary barely scratched the surface. How could you love someone and not want to know? No one looked for clues on his computer or phone or anything. The house was the most important thing because she needs that large home.

The PJ thing was just very bad writing. If she had an affair with a married man, a famous married man, yeah maybe wanted to keep that a secret, but the man I loved died in 911, something PJ heard a lot about, then I met your "dad" and he loved you like his own. Geez, it's not a secret thing. I note too the writers didn't give Barbara any other children maybe for plot purposes or they felt she was too poor. I doubt she just painted for a living but her life has been hidden like they were on the run and undercover.

Edited November 24, 2019 by debraran

[mikem]

I have forgotten:  did they ever try to explain why Jon kept the college apartment a secret from everyone?  I don't have the impression that Delilah would have cared one way or the other (or been curious about it, if he was worried about her asking questions), and there's never been an indication that the cost of keeping it, which is the only thing I can think of, was a factor in terms of it being a secret.

[debraran]

40 minutes ago, mikem said:

I have forgotten:  did they ever try to explain why Jon kept the college apartment a secret from everyone?  I don't have the impression that Delilah would have cared one way or the other (or been curious about it, if he was worried about her asking questions), and there's never been an indication that the cost of keeping it, which is the only thing I can think of, was a factor in terms of it being a secret.

I felt as odd as it was, this nucleus was all they had, he started living with her and his past or family etc was not part of the show. He compartmentalized but as a wife, I would want to know all I could about my husband. With google, I can't see how much is hidden anymore but he is the only one without a past really. Dave was one friend, I'm sure he had more. 

If he told her he kept an old apartment, maybe she'd brush it off or maybe she'd want to see it and he didn't want to mention who everyone was re the memorabilia. I honestly don't see her caring though if it wasn't about her. They had D closing a photo album and pretty much saying "I'm not in here or I don't know these people" something like that, and she closed it. And that was that.  I would have been pouring over it but it was written that way.