S39.E08: We Made it to the Merge!

[amazingracefan]

17 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I have and always will continue to call shenanigans on the way most of the players "find" hidden immunity idols. Time and time again, it's always the person who needs them the most who finds them. Coincidence? Kellee is suddenly in danger and "poof," she finds an idol. Next thing you know, Janet is the one in danger, a voila! She finds an idol.

Also: "Island of the Idols" was a big fat nothing burger this week. Jamal made up some fake advantage and gave it to Dean and they never even told us what it was supposed to be!!! WTF? 

It was a fake legacy advantage, I didn't really concentrate on what was written, partly as legacy advantages somehow aren't as interesting to me anyway.  Both that and the idols ended up being quickly wasted and pointless as well.  Maybe that's why they concentrated even more on the other stuff.  The real gameplay point of the episodes was that the eliminated contestants simply didn't have trust.  In Kellee's case self-inflicted, in Jamal's it was likely more bad luck.  At least it wasn't picking someone's name out of the bag to go to the island, that was even more silly to me.

Edited November 14, 2019 by amazingracefan

[Josh371982]

53 minutes ago, MVFrostsMyPie said:

What? I don't even know what to make of that last sentence, but I will say that just because someone is laughing/giggling when talking about something awkward/uncomfortable doesn't mean shit and doesn't mean they were okay with it. I often use humor to make others less uncomfortable when I'm discussing something serious, as a coping mechanism and also because people can't handle the ugly truths. I frequently found myself feeling the need to smile a couple weeks ago whenever I had to share with friends and coworkers that my cat had passed away because if I didn't try to smile, I would have started crying instead. It doesn't mean I was happy that my cat died or that I liked it.

I'm sorry I don't mean to dismiss it but after yesterday Liz just seems like Scum to me. I don't and wont  ever dismiss it If a woman comes to me and says a scumbag like Dan was making her uncomfortable. I find Dan Missy and Liz Disgusting. Missy and Liz are examples of why women have trouble coming forward. Despicable what they did to Janet and using it as game. I dont understand why that POS is so important for their games

[Kaiju Ballet]

12 hours ago, BusyOctober said:

Women like Elizabeth and Missy are the reason why sexual harassment will continue to be an issue for years to come.  Women like them want to present themselves as empowered females who can kick ass and take names of any competitors, regardless of gender.  They talk about being women sticking together, and supporting each other and sisterhood.  

However, women like Missy and Elizabeth are the first to turn on other women if they feel they aren’t “worth the risk”, or if they can work the situation into a personal advantage. 

Women like Elizabeth and Missy are the same type of women who will cry with a coworker in the ladies room who tells them she was raped, yet they will be the first people to slut shame that coworker because she was too drunk, or too flirty when they went out for drinks that one time. 

Women like Missy and Elizabeth are the reason why coworkers, acquaintances, supervisors will always question a report of harassment from other women.  When approached by the accused, these types of women will throw the accuser under the bus by reassuring the accused he never made them feel uncomfortable!  He’s just friendly, or like a big brother, or the office teddy bear! That other woman must be crazy, or jealous, or horny! 

Women like Elizabeth and Missy are the reason why victims don’t speak up or report. They are the reason why most females, from 8 to 80 see, feel and understand that “See Something, Say Something!”, and the promise of no reprisals or negative consequences for saying something is 100% absolute bullshit.

Anyone looking for female role models or examples of what real supportive sisterhood is should look for women like Janet.

Thank you for this. I've been processing the episode and had difficulty finding the words and clarity to get through all the emotions that were dredged up. I've been in Kellee's shoes, and what hurt worse --still to this day--was feeling betrayed by the very women I thought would be supportive. While they said all the right things publicly, what was said behind closed doors (in a work version of Tribal Council) was completely the opposite.

I was appalled by what Aaron said, and despite not having been a fan of Jamal's, I was really impressed by the fact that he spoke up, knowing full well that by doing so he was cementing his being sent home.

Was it only days earlier that Tommy and Lauren were trying to put the target on Dan based on hearing what Missy and Elizabeth were saying (and demonstrating) about his gross behavior? Elizabeth's pandering to Dan about wanting him to sleep in the same area made me throw up a little.

2 hours ago, Dbolt said:

I can confirm some of this. I was a supervisors and had multiple women come to me to complain about a coworker. None wanted to confront him and so I went to him and told him that some of the women felt uncomfortable with some of the things he was doing and saying. After our talk, he went to every women in the department and they all assured him that it wasn’t them and they didn’t know what I was talking about. They all decided I was just picking on him. And nothing changed, if anything it got worse. Fortunately I was able to fire him for something else shortly afterwards, but it certainly made me mess enthusiastic about dealing with issues after that it. 

Watching this play out with what they did to Janet was unbelievable.

39 minutes ago, lostmydamnmind said:

I can only imagine Kelle didn't play either idol because WTF wouldn't everyone else vote out a guy that multiple women accused of inappropriately touching them? As cynical as I may be, and having watched most seasons of this show, I'd have probably assumed the same.

I would have as well. Kellee was still visibly affected by talking with the producer and the talk she had with Missy. It's one thing to want to believe that your emotions can be separate from your gameplay, and it's another to still assume basic human decency even in a game that stresses deception. I hope Ponderosa provided some kind of counseling for Kellee, especially after that last tribal.

Janet FTW. And congrats show. You found a way to have me rooting for Noura or Karishma to win if Janet can't.

[iMonrey]

Quote

It was a fake legacy advantage, I didn't really concentrate on what was written, partly as legacy advantages somehow aren't as interesting to me anyway.  Both that and the idols ended up being quickly wasted and pointless as well. 

Well that's kind of my point: the whole "Island of the Idols" twist has turned out to be a bust. Rob and Sandra didn't even play an active part in the first episode and the part they played in the second was glossed over as irrelevant. I would still like to know what fake advantage Jamal came up with though since it was included in the episode. Otherwise they should have just deleted the entire sequence. 

[Drogo]

My takeaway from this screen was that the producers met with each of the players individually to ask privately if they wanted Dan removed from the game.. but based on the outcome of those discussions, the game continued with Dan in it.

 

2 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I would still like to know what fake advantage Jamal came up with though since it was included in the episode.

He wrote a fake Legacy Advantage (that looked like a page out of a middle school yearbook autograph section) and gifted it to Dean in front of everyone to paint a target on his back.  It was so effective that 4 minutes later everyone forgot Dean existed. 

(TBH I'm not sure why he didn't just bring the blank parchment back with him and pretend it was an Extra Vote Advantage for someone he could give to in private.)

[Bryce Lynch]

So, Aaron issued a tearful, video apology on Twitter.   

Missy, Elizabeth are still silent and Feely Dan made his Twitter account private.  

[Eolivet]

30 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

In Dan's case, we had video evidence of his inappropriate touching and Kellee's earlier complaint and corroboration from multiple women, (before some of them decided to recant to push their own agenda.

Sadly, Elizabeth and Missy demonstrated that a certain percentage of women (a very, small one, I hope) are perfectly willing to lie about such things to advance their goals.  

They didn't lie. They recanted. Huge difference. I know the show is spinning merry tales about them lying for "strategy," but they didn't lie. They changed their stories (for strategy). They were no different than witnesses suddenly having a different recollection of the events on Law & Order or any crime drama. But they didn't make this up, and that's what's galling me about how they're being attacked on Twitter.

Missy and Elizabeth chose to change their stories. Yes, that's on them. But they wouldn't have had to if production had removed the harasser when they had video evidence of his inappropriate touching instead of going "wait, is that bothering you? are you uncomfortable?"

It takes a lot of courage to speak up and do what Kellee did, and what Janet did, but I also understand that it's often easier for women to pretend it didn't happen or they took it the wrong way or it really was fine, really. And they're victims all the same. Victims of Dan and production. They had their reasons, and it's not for me to say why they did what they did. But they were put in the same gross situation as Kellee and Janet -- the only difference was how they handled it.

Personally, I can't sit in judgment of them, because I'm not sure if I would've done the same thing. I like to think I wouldn't, but it's often easier to be all "me? I'm fine -- I'm not the one with the problem, it's not me, ha ha" than to raise a stink in a system that really wants you to keep your mouth shut and go away.

Make no mistake: when production was asking contestants individually, they were hoping they would say "no, it's fine, don't remove him, it's good, I'm fine." Which all the contestants did. Because they knew production wanted this to go away, so the contestants gave them the answer they were hoping for, production patted themselves on the back for "addressing the situation" and the game continued. Exactly as Dan and production wanted.

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, Eolivet said:

They didn't lie. They recanted. Huge difference. I know the show is spinning merry tales about them lying for "strategy," but they didn't lie. They changed their stories (for strategy). They were no different than witnesses suddenly having a different recollection of the events on Law & Order or any crime drama. But they didn't make this up, and that's what's galling me about how they're being attacked on Twitter.

They either lied to Janet and Kellee or lied to Dan and at TC.  Plus, we have video evidence of Missy complaining about Dan's inappropriate touching and Elizabeth cried to Janet about how glad she was back to protect her from Dan.   

"Recanting" almost always involves lying.  Except in rare cases (and this was not one of them), you either lied when you told the original story or are lying when you recant.  

Missy and Elizabeth told big, fat ugly, disgusting lies, about sexual harassment and they did it for strategy.   The lies they told are the type that only the dregs of humanity would tell.  

[Lady Calypso]

2 minutes ago, Eolivet said:

They didn't lie. They recanted. Huge difference. I know the show is spinning merry tales about them lying for "strategy," but they didn't lie. They changed their stories (for strategy). They were no different than witnesses suddenly having a different recollection of the events on Law & Order or any crime drama. But they didn't make this up, and that's what's galling me about how they're being attacked on Twitter.

Well, Missy may have recanted, but Elizabeth lied. She had a long confessional in this episode about how she had no issues with Dan and that she'd use the issues against Dan to her advantage. That's why I'm especially hard on Elizabeth. She's made it clear that she didn't feel uncomfortable around Dan but then lied to people about it. Unless she was lying in her confessional, which I don't see why she would. 

Otherwise, I agree about Missy, hence why I find her the least reprehensible out of the four (Dan, Liz, Aaron, Missy, who are the four worst offenders). She's still bad and deserves the heat put on her, don't get me wrong, but people like Liz and Aaron and Dan are the problems. 

[MissEwa]

41 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I have and always will continue to call shenanigans on the way most of the players "find" hidden immunity idols. Time and time again, it's always the person who needs them the most who finds them. Coincidence? Kellee is suddenly in danger and "poof," she finds an idol. Next thing you know, Janet is the one in danger, a voila! She finds an idol.

30 minutes ago, Sarahsmile416 said:

Usually the convenient finding of idols pisses me off as well, but this week, if it had rained idols on Janet’s head, I would be perfectly fine with that.

Same. My husband was watching when Janet found her idol and he thought it seemed too easy and while I usually find it so annoying when that happens in this case it did not bother me one bit. Maybe they gave Kellee a second one to ensure she'd use one at that tribal, so they could be rid of Dan without having to boot him themselves? Also fine. If that solves a problem without them having to get their hands too dirty, then that's fine. It's just too bad she didn't do it. 

I usually watch Survivor with my eight-year-old and I got the heads up from Twitter this week that maybe I shouldn't, which I'm grateful for. I think much of it would have gone over his head, and some other stuff is probably good to start discussions about consent and listening to people (which we do anyway) but I wouldn't know where to start with the Missy/Elizabeth stuff.

I think they both behaved appallingly, but I do wonder what the truth is of how much they were bothered by Dan. Missy I think maybe actually was. I suspect she opened up to Kellee about it and I think that was genuine. I wonder if afterwards, when she found out that Kellee was targeting her, she assumed that Kellee had been playing her during that conversation, freaked out that she'd made herself so vulnerable, and so flipped it all around, even to herself., Elizabeth, on the other hand... again, I don't know. Some of the ways she talked about it - not just to Janet, but even joking last week - it's like she knew it wasn't great. 

I think there was a degree of self-protection happening. Both Missy and Elizabeth are high-level performers - they think of themselves as strong, bad-ass women. Being powerless doesn't sit well with that. It's like when Elizabeth said she that if she was bothered she would have told him to stop, as though that would have worked and fixed it all - it's uncomfortable and confronting to realise you don't have the power in a situation, and maybe it's easier to tell yourself that there's not a problem than to admit that you might not be able to control it. 

As a late Gen-x nearly cusp millenial, it's something I felt in the early days of MeToo. There were stories people were telling of behaviours that I'd experienced when I was younger, but at the time minimised as someone being 'touchy-feely' or not reading social cues or my own misinterpretations, and my instinct was to brush off those stories as 'really not that bad' rather than deal with the fact that they'd happened to me too, and I hadn't been able to stop them. 

So... I don't know. I don't even know if the above makes sense or I'm being too generous to Missy and Elizabeth. I'm furious with them, but I also agree with the poster above who reminded me that it's not them, it's the system. 

Dan, on the other hand... he deserves every bit of scorn he's getting and a little more. 

[Drogo]

Just now, Lady Calypso said:

Well, Missy may have recanted, but Elizabeth lied. She had a long confessional in this episode about how she had no issues with Dan and that she'd use the issues against Dan to her advantage. That's why I'm especially hard on Elizabeth.

"My job is to do whatever it takes to get on the right side of the numbers. The original Vokai are not the biggest fans of Dan, so if I can play up that card in whatever way possible, I’ll do it.  Honestly, I’ve felt safe this entire time and if I had felt uncomfortable I would have said, ‘Please stop.’’

[MissEwa]

9 minutes ago, Eolivet said:

It takes a lot of courage to speak up and do what Kellee did, and what Janet did, but I also understand that it's often easier for women to pretend it didn't happen or they took it the wrong way or it really was fine, really. And they're victims all the same. Victims of Dan and production. They had their reasons, and it's not for me to say why they did what they did. But they were put in the same gross situation as Kellee and Janet -- the only difference was how they handled it.

Personally, I can't sit in judgment of them, because I'm not sure if I would've done the same thing. I like to think I wouldn't, but it's often easier to be all "me? I'm fine -- I'm not the one with the problem, it's not me, ha ha" than to raise a stink in a system that really wants you to keep your mouth shut and go away.

I think this says what I was trying to say better than I could. I am angry and upset with them, but yeah, I can't say I wouldn't have done the same if it were me. Full credit to Janet for having the strength to fight that instinct. 

[amazingracefan]

The fake legacy advantage says it acts as an immunity idol to be played when 6 or ?? (hidden on camera shot, may be 5 or 7) people left.

Edited November 14, 2019 by amazingracefan

[ProfCrash]

1 minute ago, Lady Calypso said:

Well, Missy may have recanted, but Elizabeth lied. She had a long confessional in this episode about how she had no issues with Dan and that she'd use the issues against Dan to her advantage. That's why I'm especially hard on Elizabeth. She's made it clear that she didn't feel uncomfortable around Dan but then lied to people about it. Unless she was lying in her confessional, which I don't see why she would. 

Otherwise, I agree about Missy, hence why I find her the least reprehensible out of the four (Dan, Liz, Aaron, Missy, who are the four worst offenders). She's still bad and deserves the heat put on her, don't get me wrong, but people like Liz and Aaron and Dan are the problems. 

Missy recanted. Missy also encouraged Elisabeth to pretend that she was upset and uncomfortable to trigger Janet's protective side. Elisabeth 100% lied.

And while I do think that Production should have pulled Dan, Kellee was in a position to say she wanted him gone and I think he would have been gone. But she did not say that. And I think part of that was that while Dan's touching was uncomfortable and inappropriate, I don't think she felt like he was going to hurt her or do something truly sexual in nature. So while he was acting like a creep and someone she wanted to avoid because he was creepy and touchy I don't know that she was afraid of him. Maybe after she knew he was warned and told to leave his hands off of her she felt ok with his being there.

But yeah, Production should have pulled him.

Good on Aaron. Maybe he has learned something from this. He seemed to be understanding the severity of what happened.

[lostmydamnmind]

1 minute ago, ProfCrash said:

Missy recanted. Missy also encouraged Elisabeth to pretend that she was upset and uncomfortable to trigger Janet's protective side. Elisabeth 100% lied.

And while I do think that Production should have pulled Dan, Kellee was in a position to say she wanted him gone and I think he would have been gone. But she did not say that. And I think part of that was that while Dan's touching was uncomfortable and inappropriate, I don't think she felt like he was going to hurt her or do something truly sexual in nature. So while he was acting like a creep and someone she wanted to avoid because he was creepy and touchy I don't know that she was afraid of him. Maybe after she knew he was warned and told to leave his hands off of her she felt ok with his being there.

But yeah, Production should have pulled him.

Good on Aaron. Maybe he has learned something from this. He seemed to be understanding the severity of what happened.

I can imagine how it was presented to her.

Dan is warned by production.

Production tells Kellee,, "hey, we warned him. Do you want him gone?"

Of course if it's presented that way she would be less likely to say yes because the warning should be enough to make it stop.

[Eolivet]

1 minute ago, Lady Calypso said:

She had a long confessional in this episode about how she had no issues with Dan and that she'd use the issues against Dan to her advantage. That's why I'm especially hard on Elizabeth. She's made it clear that she didn't feel uncomfortable around Dan but then lied to people about it.

And we had video evidence last episode of Dan putting his hand on her rear end or her leg or something while sleeping in the shelter and her acting it out the next morning. Saying she lied is saying it didn't happen and we had video evidence that it did happen -- she supposedly wasn't uncomfortable, but it did happen.

That's what I hated about this "individual interview" thing, because it was a big cover-up. It was all about "reactions to what happened" not "what actually freaking happened."

I guess I don't believe Elizabeth maliciously decided to cry assault. I think she knows it happened and yes, decided to use it the only way she knew how -- to her game advantage. It's cold, but she took what she was given in a system that decided this was fine and used it. But the behavior did happen, and to more than one woman. So, even if she manufactured her reaction to it, I fault the people in power over the starving contestant for that one. Because if he's gone, there's no reaction for her to manufacture.

[Lady Calypso]

4 minutes ago, ProfCrash said:

Good on Aaron. Maybe he has learned something from this. He seemed to be understanding the severity of what happened.

I haven't watched his apology videos yet. I'm going to try to keep an open mind and hope that it's a sincere apology, hope he knows what he's done that was completely and utterly wrong, and more importantly, hope that he's learned from this and will be better.

[ProfCrash]

Just now, Lady Calypso said:

I haven't watched his apology videos yet. I'm going to try to keep an open mind and hope that it's a sincere apology, hope he knows what he's done that was completely and utterly wrong, and more importantly, hope that he's learned from this and will be better.

It felt sincere to me and there is a lot of teary I'm sorry, I'm so sorry and no real attempt to explain away his bad behavior.

[Ms Blue Jay]

2 hours ago, himela said:

 Elizabeth, Noura, Lauren, Janet and Karishma seemed to have no issue with Dan.

Don't you think it's possible that some of the women 

1) never interacted with Dan pre merge
2) are bothered by him, but shutting up for the chance to win $1 million

I would never assume to know someone like Noura's feelings on this.  I don't recall anyone asking her.  Or Karishma?

2 hours ago, himela said:

 This is why I said that Janet was the only victim in this story. All the rest were somehow guilty.

LOL .  What is Kellee, for example, guilty of?  

[DannyRugg]

Aaron can choke on the ever-present toothpick or whatever the hell he always has in his mouth during challenges. Can't understand why Tommy instantly decided to ditch his game and follow Aaron's plans.  Also surprised that no one has mentioned the long ago season when Gandhia accused tribemate Ted of "grinding" on her at night, hoping to evade eviction by drawing heat away from herself. She earned the hilarious nickname of "Grindia" for her efforts as well as Clay writing her name on his eviction vote as "Denver Diva." This was the season won by Brian, the sleazy soft porn actor/used car salesman/alleged domestic violence dude.

[Drogo]

Just now, ProfCrash said:

Kellee was in a position to say she wanted him gone and I think he would have been gone. But she did not say that. And I think part of that was that while Dan's touching was uncomfortable and inappropriate, I don't think she felt like he was going to hurt her or do something truly sexual in nature.

And there were bigger targets for her in the game.  

I'm having a hard time feeling too broken up over Kellee's elimination when she herself was so intent on voting out Missy over Dan.  

1 minute ago, lostmydamnmind said:

Production tells Kellee,, "hey, we warned him. Do you want him gone?"

Of course if it's presented that way she would be less likely to say yes because the warning should be enough to make it stop.

Hard disagree.  I think once this was all being discussed in the open CBS was praying that one or more of the players would request Dan's dismissal and they could pull him out of there. 

With no players making a non-game complaint (aka only speaking about their discomfort within The Game as it were) removing him would set precedent for CBS to remove any players this season and future ones for Repeated Nonsexual Touching regardless of whether anyone brought it to their attention.  

[LadyChatts]

34 minutes ago, ProfCrash said:

It felt sincere to me and there is a lot of teary I'm sorry, I'm so sorry and no real attempt to explain away his bad behavior.

I thought it was sincere, too.  His tears sold me, because they seemed genuine.  I didn’t think he needed to throw in ‘my friends and family know who I am’, but I think he felt remorseful.  Some people are applauding him for being the first to come forward and apologize.  And I think he made some stupid mistakes, but I don't think he was the worst last night.  

Edited November 14, 2019 by LadyChatts

[Ms Blue Jay]

Watching the Aaron apologies.  He says:  sorry, he immediately regretted, he's disappointed.  No justifications.  Owning up to it.  He seems totally emotionally distraught and apologizes to his castmates and victims of sexual assault.  He becomes pretty overwhelmed with emotion.

Wow, it seems genuine.  He says he's learned a lot.  Not proud.  If he could go back, he would have done everything differently.  He understands if people don't accept his apology as well.  

9 minutes ago, Drogo said:

With no players making a non-game complaint (aka only speaking about their discomfort within The Game as it were) removing him would set precedent for CBS to remove any players this season and future ones for Repeated Nonsexual Touching regardless of whether anyone brought it to their attention.  

1.  So?
2.  Why are you calling it "nonsexual"?  How did you determine that?  Dan is straight, he says so himself, and he only does it with the women.  How is that not sexual?  

It's unwanted.  That's enough.  Kellee has made that clear.  Kellee doesn't have to say "remove him".  The show gets to do that.  They have 4 million percent of the power.  They can do it, they should have, and they should now.

Edited November 14, 2019 by Ms Blue Jay

[Madame Crabanda]

It was an amazing reflection about what happens in the real world to see Kellee have to sit there, unable to speak because of the rules of the game, while predator Dan gets to hold forth ad nauseum (with tears in his eyes, no less) about what a great guy he is and how he would never, could never....”Why, I have a wife.” So did Harvey Weinsten have a wife. “Why, I have a daughter.” So did Bill Cosby have a daughter. I’d love to be a fly on the wall of some of his “professional interactions.”

[blackwing]

I don't get Jamal's thinking as to the blank piece of paper.  If his goal was to "sabotage", then why not do it in private to make it sound more real?  Pull Dean aside and say "hey I was told to give this to one person and I want you to have it".  But he had had an idol of the own so probably had the wrapping and paper it came in.  Why not wrap up this piece of paper he created, and "hide" a fake advantage for someone to find?  As it is, nobody believed him at all.  His explanation of why it was handwritten was ok i suppose, but if that was the case, why bother to make it look so flowery and artistic?  Just write the words down.

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

I have and always will continue to call shenanigans on the way most of the players "find" hidden immunity idols. Time and time again, it's always the person who needs them the most who finds them. Coincidence? Kellee is suddenly in danger and "poof," she finds an idol. Next thing you know, Janet is the one in danger, a voila! She finds an idol.

Now, one could argue, "but iMonrey, it's because they know they're in danger so they go looking!" Well, everyone is looking. In fact the thing that prompted Janet to go looking was seeing Missie and Aaron looking. Isn't it a lucky coincidence that the idol was hidden where she was looking instead of where they were looking? 

This just happens way too often.

I don't disagree... the worst example was the producer's darling Ben the Marine.  Ugh.  Thinking about how he found five idols in a row stirs up memories of hatred.

For once I'd like to see footage of someone that desperately needs an idol looking for one for 5 minutes and then coming up with nothing.

21 minutes ago, DannyRugg said:

Also surprised that no one has mentioned the long ago season when Gandhia accused tribemate Ted of "grinding" on her at night, hoping to evade eviction by drawing heat away from herself. She earned the hilarious nickname of "Grindia" for her efforts as well as Clay writing her name on his eviction vote as "Denver Diva." This was the season won by Brian, the sleazy soft porn actor/used car salesman/alleged domestic violence dude.

Ah yes, Ghandia from the Thailand season.  She was really upset from that.  I remember her primal scream on the rocks.  Also of course Sue Hawk who a naked Richard Hatch rubbed his penis against.

Dan should have been pulled from the game.  She was telling the camera how uncomfortable and bothered she was by all of it, he continued to do it, a producer asked her to come to him.  She was doing just that!  She should have insisted he be removed from the game but unfortunately she was probably too nice about it.

[laurakaye]

11 hours ago, colorbars said:

I know jury members can't talk but I really wish they had made an exception this one time and let Kellee speak. I hated that she just had to sit there and listen to all of that.

Agree 100% - they already tipped this episode upside-down by showing us production interaction, giving us the "this is a very special episode" cards to read, and - I'm not quite sure why - showed a brief glimpse of a cameraman and boom operator following someone down the beach.  And yet, they couldn't let Kellee talk.

9 hours ago, Annabel11 said:

But then Missy went on to actually vote for Janet!! With a look of hatred. Why?? That makes her the worst to me. 

This was so gross - all those people patting Janet on the back and telling her how much they love and admire her and then writing her name down to vote her out.  I was so afraid that Janet wouldn't play her idol and get voted out due to feeling assuaged by the "oh Janet but we LOVE you" chorus of liars.  I'm so glad she used it, even if she didn't have to.  I love that she wasn't fooled.

4 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

Right. But damned if I don't think I would've just said pretty much nothing at all. Basically I'm saying I definitely would have been a coward lol. Which is part of why I'm just so impressed with Janet. What a fucking strong ass person.

As a woman Janet's age with a daughter of my own, I would've voted as Janet had - because she thought she was helping protect the younger women who were looking to her as a mother figure, a protector.  And then after she protected them, they made her the outcast and let her sleep alone on the beach.  So while I think I would've voted as Janet did, I'm not sure I would have made it through the night on the beach without removing myself from the game.  And for that, Janet is definitely a bad-ass.

[Sarahsmile416]

20 minutes ago, LadyChatts said:

I thought it was sincere, too.  I didn’t think he needed to throw in ‘my friends and family know who I am’, but I think he felt remorseful.  Some people are applauding him for being the first to come forward and apologize. 

Agreed.   I am glad he truly reflected and understands what he did.  It got a little less sincere for me in the second apology video and I can’t even explain why.  The first video though I truly felt was from the heart.

[Josh371982]

I'm having a hard fucking time understanding why Dan is so important to these horrid womens games? And going to that extreme and laughing and giggling about. No reason to do that to Janet over one fucking guy. Even if they are scared HES ONE GUY. 8 women left that's more than enough to boot the Scumbag. And Missy and Elizabeth are also morons if they think Janet Karishma Noura are bigger threats than Tommy Aaron etc. Elizabeth is a moron if she thinks she can beat Missy and Aaron. But then again I wouldnt mind her getting betrayed by them. She should be ashamed of herself. Shes an Olympian who knows what went down with the Molestation of USA Gymnastics members by that Monster Dr Nassar. Missy is an Air force vet just GRRRRRRRR

[Special K]

20 minutes ago, Drogo said:

 I think once this was all being discussed in the open CBS was praying that one or more of the players would request Dan's dismissal and they could pull him out of there.

If an employee makes a complaint at work, it's not up to that employee to decide whether the offender should be fired or not.

If the producers did indeed not remove Dan because Kellee or any contestant didn't explicitly request his removal -- an unfair burden IMO and a terrible precedent to set -- that's a pretty egregious abdication of their responsibility.

[Drogo]

3 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Why are you calling it "nonsexual"?

Brushing a hair out of someone's mouth while they're talking, throwing an arm over someone sleeping in your bed while you're both sleeping, touching someone's hair after they just told you how dirty their hair feels, tickling a foot hanging over your head etc. are all touches that wouldn't have been a big deal coming from a player they were closer with or one they didn't find as repulsive as they find Creepy Dan.  Sexual touching is touching done with the intention of flirting with someone; the women have acknowledged they don't think he's doing the touching intentionally.  

Just now, Special K said:

If an employee makes a complaint at work, it's not up to that employee to decide whether the offender should be fired or not.

8 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Kellee has made that clear.  Kellee doesn't have to say "remove him".  The show gets to do that. 

We're missing each other on when and how Kellee made that clear.  What Kellee says during the game of Survivor (while building her on-camera Survivor persona) and what Kellee says in real life (when the cameras are off) can be two different things.  Kellee told the producer that interrupted her tearful TH that she didn't want to make a complaint/ for production to intervene with Dan/she wanted the players to handle it.  The producers saw she was still 'in the game' and so then they privately and off-camera gave each player an opportunity to weigh in on the issue (as themselves, outside of the game.)  

Everyone who was uncomfortable (and everyone who was aware of the discomfort those around them were feeling) should have said "Yes CBS, fuck Dan- you should intervene" to the producers during those non-game meetings.  

[Ms Blue Jay]

22 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Brushing a hair out of someone's mouth while they're talking, throwing an arm over someone sleeping in your bed while you're both sleeping, touching someone's hair after they just told you how dirty their hair feels, tickling a foot hanging over your head etc. are all touches that wouldn't have been a big deal coming from a player they were closer with or one they didn't find as repulsive as they find Creepy Dan.  Sexual touching is touching done with the intention of flirting with someone; the women have acknowledged they don't think he's doing the touching intentionally.  

Why would finding Dan "Creepy" or "repulsive" be about anything besides the fact that he touches them constantly and in a sexual manner?

Non-sexual touching is like, punching another guy lightly on the shoulder.  It's not a straight man touching a woman's hair, or feet or cuddling with a woman while she is sleeping.  That is straight up sexual.  If i'm not in a relationship with a man, he is not to do these things to me.  

How do you know Dan's intention is not to flirt?  

Dan admitted he is touching them intentionally.  He gave lots of reasons for it at Tribal Council.  He listed them.  1)  He was TOUCHING Kellee's hair to see how dirty it was.   2)  He TOUCHES women to move past them.  3)  He TOUCHES women while they were sleeping.  His hands are not moving independently from his brain.  He has reasons for doing his actions, he knows he does them, he states he does - he has intent.

Edited November 14, 2019 by Ms Blue Jay

[mbluecpa]

22 minutes ago, Special K said:

If an employee makes a complaint at work, it's not up to that employee to decide whether the offender should be fired or not.

If the producers did indeed not remove Dan because Kellee or any contestant didn't explicitly request his removal -- an unfair burden IMO and a terrible precedent to set -- that's a pretty egregious abdication of their responsibility.

Totally agree. Add to that the dynamics of Survivor and the tone of TC last night and a request by Kellee for Dan’s removal could’ve easily yielded her getting voted out quickly. 

I knew it was a crazy episode when I realized that Noura was in the small group of people that didn’t cause me rage or make me think were insane. 

Shallowly, Kellee’s overuse of “literally” grated but Dan and her failure to play an idol made me forget that. 

I hope production provides sunscreen. Tommy was in pretty dire need of some in a few of those scenes. 

[ProfCrash]

19 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Brushing a hair out of someone's mouth while they're talking, throwing an arm over someone sleeping in your bed while you're both sleeping, touching someone's hair after they just told you how dirty their hair feels, tickling a foot hanging over your head etc. are all touches that wouldn't have been a big deal coming from a player they were closer with or one they didn't find as repulsive as they find Creepy Dan.  Sexual touching is touching done with the intention of flirting with someone; the women have acknowledged they don't think he's doing the touching intentionally.  

We're missing each other on when and how Kellee made that clear.  What Kellee says during the game of Survivor (while building her on-camera Survivor persona) and what Kellee says in real life (when the cameras are off) can be two different things.  Kellee told the producer that interrupted her tearful TH that she didn't want to make a complaint/ for production to intervene with Dan/she wanted the players to handle it.  The producers saw she was still 'in the game' and so then they privately and off-camera gave each player an opportunity to weigh in on the issue (as themselves, outside of the game.)  

Everyone who was uncomfortable (and everyone who was aware of the discomfort those around them were feeling) should have said "Yes CBS, fuck Dan- you should intervene" to the producers during those non-game meetings.  

Kellee told Dan she did not like being touched and Dan kept touching her. Kelly told Dan not to touch her hair and he tried for a second time complaining that his hands were clean so he should be able to touch her hair. Dan held Kellee's request to not be touched as something to be ignored.

I had a co-worker who was trying to touch my stomach when I was pregnant. I told him to stop, before he was able to touch me. He told me that he wanted to touch new life. I told him he couldn't. He kept walking toward me, with an out stretch hand, protesting. I told him if he touched me I would deck him. He stopped and looked hurt. I would have decked him and had him removed from the contract. I kept my distance from him until he was eventually let go for other reasons.

Both actions were taken by people who think that their desires to touch someone is just fine and that the other persons "no" is meaningless. Both are unacceptable. Both made people feel uncomfortable.

I don't care that Dan did not try and have sex or force sex on Kellee. I don't care that Dan did not touch her breast. I do care that Dan was touching other womens butts and hugging so that he was very close to their breasts. I do care that Dan did not understand the word no. I do care that Kellee told him No and Dan ignored Kellee. I do care that Kellee was uncomfortable. I really care that Dan was warned by Production and his behavior and that Dan still was clueless that his behavior was abhorrent.

Dan should have been removed.

[Special K]

4 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Non-sexual touching is like, punching another guy lightly on the shoulder.  It's not a straight man touching a woman's hair, or feet or cuddling with a woman while she is sleeping.  That is straight up sexual.  Men who I'm not in relationships with don't do these things to me.

The one clip of him moving hair off Kellee's face -- that action might not seem sexual to some, but it was certainly intimate.  And this with a woman who had repeatedly told him she didn't want him to touch her. 

[JudyObscure]

Aaron has made me feel better about humanity and I needed that today.  So many times, after the show has aired and someone has been shown acting like a jerk, I expect an apology the next day and all that happens is a lot of defensive attempts at justification or the famous, "I didn't do anything wrong, I'm proud of the game I played, I wouldn't change anything."  Aaron didn't do any of those things and sounded very  sincere to me.  I believe the young man does have sisters.

[Lamima]

20 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Why would finding Dan "Creepy" or "repulsive" be about anything besides the fact that he touches them constantly and in a sexual manner?

Non-sexual touching is like, punching another guy lightly on the shoulder.  It's not a straight man touching a woman's hair, or feet or  cuddling with a woman while she is sleeping.  That is straight up sexual.

How do you know Dan's intention is not to flirt?  

How do you KNOW it is?

[Ms Blue Jay]

21 minutes ago, ProfCrash said:

I don't care that Dan did not try and have sex or force sex on Kellee. I don't care that Dan did not touch her breast. I do care that Dan was touching other womens butts and hugging so that he was very close to their breasts. I do care that Dan did not understand the word no. I do care that Kellee told him No and Dan ignored Kellee. I do care that Kellee was uncomfortable. I really care that Dan was warned by Production and his behavior and that Dan still was clueless that his behavior was abhorrent.

Thank you!  When does it become "sexual touching"?  You have to touch a woman's breasts or vagina??  NO!  Unwanted touching by men to women is sexual!   Let's not sugarcoat it, dismiss it, pretend it's something that it's not.

He's only doing it to women, people!   It's sexual!  Do people really go around touching other people's feet and hair and you all find this okay?  I'm honestly… shocked.  

11 minutes ago, Lamima said:

How do you KNOW it is?

I never saw it WAS.  I said that you can't know it's NOT.  There is a difference.

Edited November 14, 2019 by Ms Blue Jay

[Bryce Lynch]

14 minutes ago, Special K said:

The one clip of him moving hair off Kellee's face -- that action might not seem sexual to some, but it was certainly intimate.  And this with a woman who had repeatedly told him she didn't want him to touch her. 

Not only that, she had specifically told him not to touch her hair.  

[Lamima]

20 minutes ago, Special K said:

The one clip of him moving hair off Kellee's face -- that action might not seem sexual to some, but it was certainly intimate.  And this with a woman who had repeatedly told him she didn't want him to touch her. 

This is the issue. She told him not to and he still did. However, her body language did not show that she was uncomfortable. She didn't smack his hand or pull away. I think she wanted to talk game with him. But if his actions were some sort of come ons that she didn't want, she would have pulled away. I would think. I say that knowing that's what I'd do...even in a game for big $$$. I really don't think he is coming on. I think he is trying to gain them on his side. I recall a BB recently where a guy was trying to use his flirtiness to gain girls' trust and confidences so he could use it for game....can't remember who. And Peachy's FAVE, Parvati, used her flirty feminine wiles to gain the fellas confidences. Nobody cried fowl there. I could be wrong...the guy could be a total perv and was just trying to cop'a feel every chance he could (we all know those types). But we can't KNOW for sure either way. Yet the show kinda leads us to think he was a perv the way Peachy went at him. But the show didn't boot him...I am just perplexed.

Edited November 14, 2019 by Lamima

[seacliffsal]

I think that one reason this episode resonates so much to me, is that I see more and more often that people who are told "no" believe that what they want to do supersedes another person's right to say "no."  ProfCrash's story affirms this as does the footage of Dan trying to touch Kelley's hair again AFTER she said "no."  I think there's an aspect of "nobody tells me what to do..." that goes along with this.  

Also, Dan's "apology" at TC was a non-apology.  It was completely "if when I had a very good reason to touch somebody because I wanted to, and it bothered them, I would be so truly sorry..."  He defended himself through a series of justifications although what we saw in various scenes did not match up with his examples and justifications.  

Like others, I have now put Noura in my "I'd be okay if she won" category after I soooo wanted her gone after the first few episodes.  I hope Janet goes far this season, but I think that Elizabeth, Missy, and Lauren will really be trying to vote her out as she represents integrity in action and truth in words.  

I'm not a producer apologist, but I can understand not taking Dan out without survivors (even just one) asking them to do so.  We saw that Elizabeth said she would use stories about Dan however it best worked for her, and production may need verification that what people say is actually how they feel/believe-not part of a story line or strategy they are creating for themselves.  Players often use their interviews to justify their play, etc.; they are not necessarily always representing the truth.  I also think that eliminating him without verification from the players would set a dangerous precedent in that from that point on whenever someone had a complaint about how someone else was acting, action would have to be taken.  Please note that I totally think Dan was touching women inappropriately (I have already posted several responses about that).  I just think it's not quite as clear about production's options-especially if none of the players requested his removal.  

[iMonrey]

Quote

Aaron can choke on the ever-present toothpick or whatever the hell he always has in his mouth during challenges. 

Ugh, I was going to comment on this too. I suppose a case could be made that it keeps him focused during challenges, but I generally dislike guys who always have a toothpick-like thing hanging out of their mouths. I think they mostly do it because they think it makes them look like Clint Eastwood or something.

[ProfCrash]

3 minutes ago, Lamima said:

This is the issue. She told him not to and he still did. However, her body language did not show that she was uncomfortable. She didn't smack his hand or pull away. I think she wanted to talk game with him. But if his actions were some sort of come ons that she didn't want, she would have pulled away. I would think. Knowing what I'd do...even in a game for big $$$. I really don't think he is coming on. I think he is trying to gain them on his side. I recall a BB recently where a guy was trying to use his flirtiness to gain girls' trust and confidences so he could use it for game....can't remember who. And Peachy's FAVE, Parvati, used her flirty feminine wiles to gain the fellas confidences. Nobody cried fowl there. I could be wrong...the guy could be a total perv and was just trying to cop'a feel every chance he could (we all know those types). But we can't KNOW for sure either way. Yet the show kinda leads us to think he was a perv the way Peachy went at him. But the show didn't boot him...I am just perplexed.

When he touched her hair, she smacked his hand away and said no. He tried again as she was giving a stiff arm and walking away from him. So there are good examples of her physically and verbally telling him no.

I also know women who have been so surprised by what was happening that they did nothing. I had a friend who was french kissed by a stranger as we walked through a park together. She froze, I grabbed him and threw him off of her, grabbed her arm and we ran away. The guys friends were busily cat calling and where angry with me for hitting their friend.

No means no. No doesn't mean yes if the person doesn't physically disengage immediately or deck you.

ETA: Did any of the men complain about Parvati or state on multiple occasions that she made them uncomfortable? The answer is no, none of them did. So she was fine. If someone told her to stop it and she did not, she would not have been fine. And plenty of people trashed Parvati's game became it was demeaning to see a women try and use her sexuality to manipulate people.

Edited November 14, 2019 by ProfCrash

[Lamima]

2 minutes ago, ProfCrash said:

When he touched her hair, she smacked his hand away and said no. He tried again as she was giving a stiff arm and walking away from him. So there are good examples of her physically and verbally telling him no.

I also know women who have been so surprised by what was happening that they did nothing. I had a friend who was french kissed by a stranger as we walked through a park together. She froze, I grabbed him and threw him off of her, grabbed her arm and we ran away. The guys friends were busily cat calling and where angry with me for hitting their friend.

No means no. No doesn't mean yes if the person doesn't physically disengage immediately or deck you.

Not the pushing hair out of face scene at the merge feast. She didn't smack hand or pull away at all. The hair beach scene was likely after her chat with Missy and she was on alert...and trying to make it clear NOT to touch her. But she didn't seem too bothered at the merge feast as I think she was more interested in talking game with him again. 

He was way wrong to keep touching. Way! But I don't think it was pervy, just too touchy feely type of guy and was using that to show gain their confidences. JMO anyway. Geesh, if every touch or bump is pervy then the 2-4 times a year I'm at Disney and in line with many various cultures that have no concept of personal space I am being molested. 

Edited November 14, 2019 by Lamima

[Bryce Lynch]

Just now, Lamima said:

Not the pushing hair out of face scene at the merge feast. She didn't smack hand or pull away at all.

How many times does she need to smack the predator's hand away or tell him to stop effing touching her?

Answer: ONE

[ProfCrash]

Just now, Lamima said:

Not the pushing hair out of face scene at the merge feast. She didn't smack hand or pull away at all.

I see. So every time Dan touched her after she asked him to not touch her she had to hit him, walk away or repeat her no? Are we going to start questioning her clothing as well?

She told Dan no. On many occasions she told Dan no. Dan is responsible for honoring her no. She should not have to repeat it every time. She should not have to physically stop him every time. She said no. More then once.

This is on Dan not Kellee.

[Ms Blue Jay]

3 minutes ago, Lamima said:

Not the pushing hair out of face scene at the merge feast. She didn't smack hand or pull away at all.

So after Kelly had a long talk with Dan at the beginning of the game saying "I do not like to be touched", you think that Dan had implicit permission to continue to touch Kellee every single day and that the burden was on Kellee to repeat that she didn't like it?

Suffice it to say I 100% disagree.  I agree with the poster a few pages ago who said just assume everyone DOES NOT WANT you to touch them, and live life that way.

[Lamima]

4 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

How many times does she need to smack the predator's hand away or tell him to stop effing touching her?

Answer: ONE

Agreed except I don't think he's a predator. My opinion. But the 1st time she said not to touch should have been the ONLY and he should stop.

[Bryce Lynch]

2 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Suffice it to say I 100% disagree.  I agree with the poster a few pages ago who said just assume everyone DOES NOT WANT you to touch them, and live life that way.

^THIS!   

To all the Feely Dans and Feely Dan apologists out there, nobody is going to be hurt or disappointed that you didn't touch them without their consent.  

[Lamima]

4 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

So after Kelly had a long talk with Dan at the beginning of the game saying "I do not like to be touched", you think that Dan had implicit permission to continue to touch Kellee every single day and that the burden was on Kellee to repeat that she didn't like it?

Suffice it to say I 100% disagree.  I agree with the poster a few pages ago who said just assume everyone DOES NOT WANT you to touch them, and live life that way.

I agree with you. But to call him a predator or pervert as if we KNOW he was doing it as a sexual advance. I just don't think he was. 

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, Lamima said:

Agreed except I don't think he's a predator. My opinion. But the 1st time she said not to touch should have been the ONLY and he should stop.

Predator is kind of a subjective term. He is clearly a serial inappropriate toucher of women, at a minimum.   

And that is what he does ON CAMERA.  It makes one wonder what he does when he thinks nobody is watching.