S08.E04: Present Tense

[scarynikki12]

Quote

When a mysterious new Deathstroke appears in Star City, Oliver and Team Arrow insist on taking down this villain themselves.

 

[insomniadreams88]

LOVED LOVED LOVED all the Smoak-Queen family scenes. William coming out and Oliver telling him he and Felicity knew was perfect. Loved the Mia/Oliver scenes.

But really wish we'd at least gotten an off-screen phone call to Felicity. Terrible excuse not to contact her. Also, just reminds me that Felicity spends the next 20 years alone, which I still hate. 

Do I like E2 LL more than E1? Yes. Do I hate that the show is completely ignoring the fact that she was a villain other than a line here and there, without acknowledging all the people she killed? YES. You shouldn't be able to call someone a dick after everything Laurel's done to Oliver and the others. Seriously, she's tried to kill Oliver and Felicity multiple times, yet we're supposed to be all, yay a Mia/Laurel scene? Nope. Wish we'd gotten a Mia/Diggle scene instead. 

Liked the Connor/Diggle stuff, but I also wish we'd get Bronze Tiger again. Give me more Ben Turner!  

Have to admit I rolled my eyes at the last scene. Are we supposed to wonder if Laurel will betray Oliver and then be all "oh my god, such a great hero!" when she doesn't? 

[scarynikki12]

The Monitor certainly knows his audience. Black Siren is the obvious choice to betray Oliver. Hope they follow through. 

Tons of good Family Queen/Smoak stuff. Glad the kids are sticking around. 

3 minutes ago, quarks said:

I refuse to believe that Black Siren is this stupid.

She is but they’ll no doubt have her change her mind in the nick of time so we can all praise her heroics. 
 

2 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Give me more Ben Turner!

YES PLEASE 

[apinknightmare]

I really enjoyed seeing Oliver and the kids together. I hope they stay in the present until the crossover - especially because watching only one timeline is so nice compared to the split. 

I like snarky Laurel, but her never addressing her murdering in any way other than snarky anecdotes and joking about Oliver being a dick without mentioning that he was a dick to her for helping kidnap his son and kill his mother really grates. 

I'm guessing she'll wind up betraying Oliver and that's how

Spoiler

we get the "Reset" for episode 6?

Edited November 6, 2019 by apinknightmare

[UNOSEZ]

Arrow... I swear to  every conceivable name that ppl use for their creator... If you EVER do that hair flip while Mia is shooting an arrow.. I will literally, figuratively, metaphorically and actually end you... Yes I know you aren't a living breathing entity.. I will find a way... 

Otherwise.. Good episode... Loved William and Oliver having their talk.. Loved Dinah getting Rene and Diggle's heads screwed on straight... I loved how competent Connor and William were... I appreciated John and Rene having mini meltdowns... Liked Diggle and Connor coming together at the end.. Liked William and Curtis working together... Loved Rene's speech at the end... Even chuckled at the canaries eating together.. Then I remembered how much they wanted to kill each other and smiled some more... I really enjoyed so much of this episode... 

Except for Mia... She's an ass.. An arrogant impulsive abrasive joke.. Somehow in her let's get revenge for Zoe she failed to mention it was her complete lack of skill that got Zoe killed.. Her horrible plan.. Her nonexistent fighting skills compared to JJ.. She's been bested by him like 3 times... Zoe dies saving her non fighting ass and she wants to run off and fight the guy who trained him.. All alone?  When even more ppl who have more experience than the ppl who previously told you that you couldn't do it alone.. Tell her not to do it all alone... Then her attitude with Ollie... I for a second thought that maybe the kids didn't know about the monitor.. And just know he dissapears... But no William said the monitors name...  So they know the score.. That a damn near God called on Oliver to assist in saving the universe. And  she's out here laying down guilt trips like he was some deadbeat who left to go on a rock tour in the Midwest and started up a new family... 

How the CW thinks this character will carry a show is beyond me.. 

[quarks]

Gotta say, Arrow is having one hell of a last season. While still holding on to its tradition of having plenty of headthunking moments - and not just about the sets, either!

Though having Rene give his speech in the exact same area where Diggle/JJ had just had their Touching Moment of Truth was, even for this show's production values, not an awesome moment, eliminating all my joy at seeing that hospital hallway set in tatters, however temporarily. And I am not looking forward to the next few weeks of watching all of the Batwoman and Arrow characters trot down the same hallways again. AUUGH.

Still mindboggled that of all the people Team Arrow could call for scientific and hacking help - Team Flash, Felicity, Kara and the DEO, Ray and Team Legends, possibly the Time Bureau, Kate (well, ok, Oliver doesn't really believe in the Batman and thus probably doesn't believe in Wayne Tech), everyone else at Argus - they picked Curtis. And it's not that I even mind them telling Curtis - and I'm all for this "let's scoop up all of the former regulars/major guest stars and give them one last appearance" nostalgia thing that Arrow is doing this season - but telling Curtis just highlights that they haven't told the single most powerful being on their planet, Barry Allen, that another universe has just disappeared, and that they haven't bothered to check to see if Kara and her universe are still around, which seems to be a rather important question at this point. Especially since Oliver, at least, knows full well that his deal with the Monitor involved Kara.

I need at least a throwaway line here to explain why this isn't happening, fun though all of the Queen Family Drama scenes were in this episode.

[Josh371982]

31 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

Arrow... I swear to  every conceivable name that ppl use for their creator... If you EVER do that hair flip while Mia is shooting an arrow.. I will literally, figuratively, metaphorically and actually end you... Yes I know you aren't a living breathing entity.. I will find a way... 

Otherwise.. Good episode... Loved William and Oliver having their talk.. Loved Dinah getting Rene and Diggle's heads screwed on straight... I loved how competent Connor and William were... I appreciated John and Rene having mini meltdowns... Liked Diggle and Connor coming together at the end.. Liked William and Curtis working together... Loved Rene's speech at the end... Even chuckled at the canaries eating together.. Then I remembered how much they wanted to kill each other and smiled some more... I really enjoyed so much of this episode... 

Except for Mia... She's an ass.. An arrogant impulsive abrasive joke.. Somehow in her let's get revenge for Zoe she failed to mention it was her complete lack of skill that got Zoe killed.. Her horrible plan.. Her nonexistent fighting skills compared to JJ.. She's been bested by him like 3 times... Zoe dies saving her non fighting ass and she wants to run off and fight the guy who trained him.. All alone?  When even more ppl who have more experience than the ppl who previously told you that you couldn't do it alone.. Tell her not to do it all alone... Then her attitude with Ollie... I for a second thought that maybe the kids didn't know about the monitor.. And just know he dissapears... But no William said the monitors name...  So they know the score.. That a damn near God called on Oliver to assist in saving the universe. And  she's out here laying down guilt trips like he was some deadbeat who left to go on a rock tour in the Midwest and started up a new family... 

How the CW thinks this character will carry a show is beyond me.. 

Funny I remember Zoe being stupid and turning her back to a guy she only knocked down. Raging over a hair flip? Oh please.

[UNOSEZ]

14 minutes ago, Josh371982 said:

Funny I remember Zoe being stupid and turning her back to a guy she only knocked down. Raging over a hair flip? Oh please.

A guy she knocked down to save Mia.. And while checking on said innocent her head malcontent gets stabbed thru the gut or heart... The stupid things may in fact be William Zoe and Connor all taking orders from the 21 year old with a bad attitude... William and Zoe are in their 30's him about 33 or 34 her 30... 

And I'm raging about the hair flip because it was mad unecessary 

[Trini]

Did they explain the time travel at all? Or did really just want to get into screwing the timeline like the other shows before the end?

[Chaser]

I’m disappointed in how they explained Felicity’s absence. I was hoping they would write in a phone call. The Queen family scenes were so good it just made me painfully aware of what was missing.

I also enjoyed the Diggle and Connor scenes. I would have liked Lyla there as well. 

This episode highlighted how well FTA was casted. The kids all had great chemistry with their parents. Ben is always a standout for me, but Kat did so well this episode.  

I had forgotten the Rene Mayor thing and was genuinely confused for a moment.

I don’t know how the spin off is supposed to work when none of the actresses have any sort of chemistry together. 

[Lantern7]

Time travel makes everything awkward, doesn't it? Too bad the Legends are in the proverbial cornfield. I do think Team Arrow did try to call Central City. "Hi, you have reached STAR Labs. No one is here to take your call, given that Barry Allen is doomed, and everyone here is trying to deal. Please leave your message after the beep. No guarantee we'll call back, though."

Nice to see two generations of vigilantes bond and angst so well. And Curtis is back! I'm guessing not many viewers were overjoyed. At least he has the nice facial hair.

And we get Slade's son! Aaaaaaannnnnd he's shipped off to Gotham. I guess he's Batwoman's problem now. Given how Slade called Oliver "brother" often, I kept waiting for Grant to call him "Uncle."

Dinah sounded impressed at the thought of a "Canary Network." Only thing missing was her turning to the camera and saying, "That would make for a great backdoor pilot, wouldn't it?"

Oliver knew "his" William was gay. I . . . can't see it. Also can't see Rene becoming Mayor . . . but given that Star City has had, like, a dozen Mayors throughout the series, and Oliver had the longest tenure, maybe he does have a shot.

Monitor still being a dick. He's probably testing Laurel-2. She did get some choice snark at his outfit. Maybe she isn't beyond redemption.

[Primal Slayer]

This was one of the tightest episodes in....forever. For once we had one central plot that was able to splinter into multiple minor plots that all lead back to the central plot. 

Having the 2040 kids show up in 2019 was a great choice, I'd rather them stay in present day than go back to the future since it just gives them better storylines and are able to match up with the other shows.

The Deathstroke Gang showing up in the present the same.exact.day. 2040 kids show up was a little bit to much on point but it helped drive the FTA and their storylines with PTA.

The Oliver/William scenes were great and really emotional but Oliver doesn't need to have foresight for everything, wasnt Felicity caught off guard that William was gay? Oliver being supportive is to be expected, is great, but he can be surprised by some things. 

Depending on how I look at it...I can see William referring to Felicity as "mom" since he probably wants that motherly figure after losing his own mom and all the trauma he went through since Oliver entered his life but on the other hand...I feel like it's a bit forced. They spent around a year together, him calling her Felicity idk seems more natural. Same with Diggle/Conner, but same trauma applies to him as well. 

I liked that they had animosity between Rene/Diggle briefly and had them wrap it up quick, though not all these kids have to live the same life their parents lived. 

Laurel/Mia was fun, they can be snarky together and Laurel can help ensure that Mia doesn't go down a similar road to Laurel, Laurels general snark was just on point besides the dislike for Oliver...I just dont get why the writers always have to pit these two against each other. E1 Laurel/Oliver got to a GREAT place in S4 and were working together really well, everything was there but since it was going so good they had to kill her off...and now E2 Laurel has to be pit against Oliver after the constant building blocks the two have gone through with one another since her introduction in S5. 

But overall, one of those rare episodes where they used EVERYONE in the cast, like everyone got good amount of screentime...it isn't that hard writers. 

[insomniadreams88]

5 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

wasnt Felicity caught off guard that William was gay?

I don’t think it ever came up? Only time Felicity mentioned either kid’s love life was her comment about not knowing Mia’s type, I think. 

[JamieLynn832002]

I loved so much about this episode but did they ever tell us if Dr. Schwartz survived the hospital bomb? Her picture was up on a board in the police station (which makes me think maybe not) but that's the only reference to her I caught after the bomb. Of course, I'm still wondering if Ragman and Helena are dead after The Emerald Archer so not telling us isn't exactly unprecedented.

[Soulfire]

 

Bonus:

Edited November 6, 2019 by Soulfire

[Featherhat]

Just a quick one before I go to work:

Guys. You have time travelling friends who meet relatives, past and future selves and mess around with the timeline every week. They are semi professional at what you are going through! You generally all ride in their time ship once a year! CALL THEM or at least mention trying to call them but getting Gideon's message service to ask WTF? Sara's your oldest friend and fake sister! Why call Curtis about this? I mean for EK that he got a reunion and everything but still. 

[JamieLynn832002]

9 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

Guys. You have time travelling friends who meet relatives, past and future selves and mess around with the timeline every week. They are semi professional at what you are going through! You generally all ride in their time ship once a year! CALL THEM or at least mention trying to call them but getting Gideon's message service to ask WTF?

Yeah, that was especially glaring since Oliver mentioned Sara not being able to help with the League/Nyssa/Monitor thing last week. So you think to ask her about a situation that involves her former life but not to give her a call about one that's basically her whole life now?

[theschnauzers]

From what I recall, in Arrow, until now, they didn’t get involved with time travel, and before the monitor, really didn’t get into parallel Earths, except for E2 Laurel, and prior crossovers. So I’m not surprised they didn’t call the time ship and I think William was remembering Felicity left but even he didn’t know about the pocket universe Felicity was placed in by the Monitor in 7-22.

None of that is an issue with me.

Episode itself is clearly the best this season, and maybe one of the best of the series.

[Featherhat]

30 minutes ago, theschnauzers said:

From what I recall, in Arrow, until now, they didn’t get involved with time travel, and before the monitor, really didn’t get into parallel Earths, except for E2 Laurel, and prior crossovers. So I’m not surprised they didn’t call the time ship and I think William was remembering Felicity left but even he didn’t know about the pocket universe Felicity was placed in by the Monitor in 7-22.

None of that is an issue with me.

Episode itself is clearly the best this season, and maybe one of the best of the series.

I'm not surprised there wasn't a quick LOT crossover or anything but mentioning them would have been good. They've talked about it on Arrow itself before and all the characters have been on Waverider. It just seemed a little strange there wasn't even a throw away line. It certainly didn't ruin this great episode for me or anything.

[Lady Calypso]

This was such a great episode. Everyone got a little something to do. And plus, Dinah didn't COMPLETELY piss me off! So...progress? Even for just an episode? 

I mean, Curtis bugged the shit out of me, but at least I can kind of understand why he was there....though not really. 

The Laurel/Mia scene was...alright, I guess. Katie Cassidy does a solid job as Earth 2 Laurel, and she looks really great with her new hairstyle; it makes her look older, but in a good way. Plus, less hair to get in the way during fights! And yes, I did side eye the dumbass hair flip for Mia as she was firing her arrow. It looked cool for a one time thing, but don't do it again, show. 

Ben Lewis was MVP of this episode, by far. I always liked this version of William, but Ben absolutely brought it in his scenes with Stephen. Not that Kat didn't do a good job at Mia, but I think that William had more balance with his emotions and was able to bounce off of other characters better. I just wish William also got to interact with Diggle a little more. 

Speaking of Diggle, I can't blame him for going through a whole cycle of emotions in this episode. Finding out that he adopts Connor, finding out about JJ being evil and killing Zoe, and having to deal with time travel in general? It's a lot to process. I keep forgetting that Diggle and Dinah are kind of friends, which...meh. 

They did utilize Rene and Dinah the best this episode. I mean, it wasn't great, but I didn't leave the episode yelling at them to shut up....that was solely reserved to Curtis this episode. 

Overall, a very tight and coherent episode. When the show has all the characters working together and not have them totally separate, it works better. So I'm super glad for them merging the two groups together in the past. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

Stephen really knocked it out of the park. I need to make sure that my box of Kleenex is next to me as I watch the rest of the episodes.

I loved his reunion with William. With Mia? Not so much. Look, I get it. She blames Oliver for abandoning her and Felicity, mission over family, blah, blah. But after last week's ending and that tear-filled, emotional "Dad?" I was expecting a hug, DAMMIT. Then she could push away and be angry. But in that moment? I WANTED.A.HUG. Oliver was so ACHING to hold her. So I feel cheated.

That's not the real Monitor, right? He's

The Anti-Monitor

right? After that line about Black Siren has to betray Oliver, and then he'll recover Earth-2? Based on his actions thus far, I'm afraid that he led Felicity to her death at the end of last season. I am NOT pleased. 

I suppose it was to "show" Oliver that Mia wasn't this weakling, but her throwing in his face that Nyssa trained her, had me 🙄 Seriously? And you think your father couldn't counter any of your moves? And while I admit, I've fast forwarded like, 90% of the future scenes, I didn't get the impression that Zoe and Mia were friends. The few scenes I did catch, had them antagonistic toward each other. So unless I missed something (clearly, it looks like I did), I'm not buying Mia's grief--and when I say that, I mean, she's grieving and raging as if Zoe was her bestest friend evah, and she MUST AVENGE her murder. And I didn't see that. If it were William? Then yes. While I realize she's young, she just came off as an obnoxious brat. Maybe it's just my bias because I adore Oliver, even though he demonstrated he was as dumb as a box of rocks in Season Five. 

And FOUL! That we didn't see that phone call with Felicity. After William tells Oliver it could mess up the timeline, what do they do? They tell everyone what happens in the future, who ends up how. So, tell me again why Oliver couldn't contact Felicity, even if it would have been a one sided conversation?

[UNOSEZ]

3 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

, I didn't get the impression that Zoe and Mia were friends. The few scenes I did catch, had them antagonistic toward each other. So unless I missed something (clearly, it looks like I did), I'm not buying Mia's grief--and when I say that, I mean, she's grieving and raging as if Zoe was her bestest friend evah, and she MUST AVENGE her murder. And I didn't see that.

They weren't... Zoe knew William a bit when they were kids.. I'm guessing she knew JJ and Connor... So if anyone should really be emotional about it.. Its Connor... His brother kills his friend.. Because his ex and her hair flipping non fighting self got all of them to join in on her stupid plan

[apinknightmare]

28 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

So unless I missed something (clearly, it looks like I did), I'm not buying Mia's grief--and when I say that, I mean, she's grieving and raging as if Zoe was her bestest friend evah, and she MUST AVENGE her murder.

You don't have to be best friends with someone to want to get revenge for their murder when you feel responsible for it. 

23 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

His brother kills his friend.. Because his ex and her hair flipping non fighting self got all of them to join in on her stupid plan

Non-fighting self? What?

29 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

And FOUL! That we didn't see that phone call with Felicity. After William tells Oliver it could mess up the timeline, what do they do? They tell everyone what happens in the future, who ends up how. So, tell me again why Oliver couldn't contact Felicity, even if it would have been a one sided conversation?

I feel like not telling Felicity about the future is the best option available to the writers. I don't believe for a second that anyone would be able to keep her away from those kids if she knew they were in Star City, so just keeping her in the dark about it explains her absence for however long they wind up being in the present. 

[UNOSEZ]

4 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Non-fighting self? What?

Compared to the ppl she seems to wanna go up against.. Yeah.. JJ has gotten the best of her more than once in one on one fights.. Then she wants to take  run at the guy who trained JJ... And she's even tryna push Ollie... Homegirl has a seriously inflated sense of her skills.. And that inflation got Zoe killed... 

[apinknightmare]

7 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

Compared to the ppl she seems to wanna go up against.. Yeah.. JJ has gotten the best of her more than once in one on one fights.. Then she wants to take  run at the guy who trained JJ... And she's even tryna push Ollie...

Yes, it's like she's an angry, imperfect person in need of learning a few lessons, which is probably why the writers had her meet her dad. 

Quote

Homegirl has a seriously inflated sense of her skills.. And that inflation got Zoe killed... 

Feeling responsible for Zoe's death might be why she's so upset about it.

Edited November 6, 2019 by apinknightmare

[way2interested]

8 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

You don't have to be best friends with someone to want to get revenge for their murder when you feel responsible for it. 

Yeah, plus the same thing happened in 718, Mia wanted to get revenge on the dead Canaries by destroying the Zetas, and she didn't even know them, they were just allies. Now her own teammate that she actually knows is dead so she wants the person responsible (or in 804's case the person who trains the person responsible) dead. Pretty clear connection here.

42 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I suppose it was to "show" Oliver that Mia wasn't this weakling, but her throwing in his face that Nyssa trained her, had me 🙄 Seriously? And you think your father couldn't counter any of your moves?

The scene wasn't about showing Oliver Mia's skills or anything about that. It was about setting up the issue between Oliver and Mia, that she doesn't have familial feelings towards him like William does and feels like he ultimately abandoned them and then she, like Oliver in past seasons, wanted to go out and physically do something to solve a tangential problem. Oliver, recognizing the feelings Mia has because he's lived through s1-s7, wanted to stop her and talk (exactly what Thea told him to when Oliver himself was on an emotional rampage in 410). Mia then threw that training stuff in his face and tried to fight him because that's what Mia has always done with anyone no matter who they are (s7 she wanted to fight through gangs of corrupt cops, the Zetas, and the Deathstroke gang just because they were obstacles even though they vastly outsized and outnumbered her, usually to be stopped or helped instead) standing in her way and it shows her dad was no different than the others in the moment (she even literally says that) and that their relationship needs working on (confirmed by one of the resolution scenes literally being Oliver wanting to have and actual relationship with his daughter).

[UNOSEZ]

23 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Feeling responsible for Zoe's death might be why she's so upset about it.

Except she turns around and does the same thing in wanting to go after grant.. In fact it's worse because she has no idea of this 2019 world.. Who's helping grant etc.

17 minutes ago, way2interested said:

s7 she wanted to fight through gangs of corrupt cops, the Zetas, and the Deathstroke gang just because they were obstacles even though they vastly outsized and outnumbered her,

Yeah that's not particularly admirable if in doing so ppl have to put themselves in danger to save you.. 

From her introduction to now I don't feel she's learned much of anything. She's just a pastiche of  tough kid/ lone wolf/ daddy issues tropes... And maybe it would be bearable if she was a lesser character but as oliver's kid and soon to be star of her own show.. She's really unlikeable... I haven't seen any real fighting skill that sets her apart.. She's had  tough life.. But is it that much tougher than others... She displays no real social skills.. Other than being a really attractive girl the show hasn't given me a reason why Connor is into her... She's been around for a bit now a d its no growth.. And no admitting that how she's doing what she's doing isn't working... 

[calliope1975]

I love Mia. She's the best and worst parts of her parents. Whoever made the story decision to bring the future kids to the past deserves a cookie. (I know the CW ain't throwing out raises.) 

I said this in the live thread, but I'd watch 1000 hours of Oliver being a dad and exasperated by his kids. I like that he had such difficulty connecting with Kid William but had no problem bonding with Adult William and it was Mia that he had trouble reaching. Spec not spoiler but I really need a full family reunion with Felicity. 

Edited November 6, 2019 by calliope1975

[way2interested]

4 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

Yeah that's not particularly admirable if in doing so ppl have to put themselves in danger to save you.. 

Lol it's not supposed to be admirable. That's what character flaws are.

[tennisgurl]

Curse the real world for taking me away from watching this live! 

I LOVE having the Queen/Smoak family together and Oliver getting the time to bond with his kids at last, even if its a rough road. I hated seeing Mia blaming Oliver for not being there (its not like Oliver wanted to die to save the multiverse!) but its certainly in character for how she deals with emotions with anger and lashing out, and they had some really great scenes at the end. I mean, Oliver made them his late nights snacks!!! Oh my heart! SA is just at a new level this season, he has been really great for years, but he is just killing my heart every second with his eye emoting. I really love that William as an adult has moved past his issues with Oliver and has made peace with what Oliver did, that he did it to keep him safe, and that they seem to so easily pick up where they left off when he was a kid and went off to leave with his crappy grandparents. 

Coming back from the crappy future sure is awkward. Diggle is so devastated by JJ turning evil, and I feel so bad for Connor. He comes back and sees his beloved father, only he doesent know him as his son, and is so furious and heartbroken about what happens to his other son in the future, that he takes it out on him and is basically like "your not my son, back off!" when he tells him the truth. I mean, normally I am all about people in this franchise telling each other the truth, but I cant blame the kids for not opening with "JJ is a supervillain, Zoe is dead, William and Mia were separated until recently, and the city you all tried to save sucks even more now." as soon as they showed up. Connors face when Diggle called him son at the end though just...my heart! But of course, everyone can get excited about the flock of canaries! Oh, the ways I do not care. This shows attempts to make Black Canary A Thing truly reaches its climax. 

So of all the people they could call, everyone at Star labs, their friends who literally time travel every single day, who include a super intelligent ship from the future, ARGUS, the Time Beuro, get in touch with Kara and the DEO in the world next door, countless numbers of the most brilliant people in the multiverse who are on Oliver's speed dial, and they call...Curtis. I get that they are trying to bring back as many former characters as they can, but come on! At least have a throw away line about how they tried to get in touch with Sara and the Legends and they were busy or something! Also, your friends future kids just popped up out of nowhere three seconds ago, no one gives a shit about your stupid beard Curtis!

Instead of having Mia and Laurel talking about how much Oliver sucks (while downplaying all the shit she has done, as usual) I would have actually preferred having Renee and Mia talk about Zoe, as they were pretty good friends, or Diggle and Mia, or Diggle and William, or anything else basically! I guess it did set up Laurel meeting The Monitor, and her being asked to betray Oliver. I mean, The Monitor certainly picked the right Judas at least, I cant imagine Laurel angsting too much about betraying Oliver, who she just said she can hardly stand. 

I might not be a big fan of Renee, but I do feel bad for him learning that Zoe is going to die young in the future, killed by an evil future version of cute little JJ. His political aspirations seem pretty random though, am I forgetting this being a thing? "Yes people of the Glades, one day, WE will be the privileged assholes!"

Ah, we get our season first "Make such and such Great Again" from a villain of the season! *drinks* 

This season has actually been really good so far, even with some complaints, and I am so glad the kids are staying longer!

[Featherhat]

If you had told me anything about a Mia/Oliver meet up without any spoilers or actor interviews I would have said it was going to be tense and difficult to start with, always way more so than with William who forgave Felicity everything quickly as well. 

I like Mia, she can be annoying and she's certainly impetuous and somewhat inexperienced and stubborn but this whole season is about her growth as a person and as a fighter leading to the spin off and

Spoiler

leading up to her officially taking on the Green Arrow mantle

and Oliver will be part of that journey.  Her reaction to Zoe's death is largely based on her own guilt. Her reaction to Oliver isn't necessarily rational and logically she knows why he left but it isn't about that, it's about never having a daddy. 

Ben Lewis was definitely an MVP of this episode though. He sold me on all of William's scenes, I loved the late coming out to Oliver and how nervous he was despite being a successful billionaire. 

SA is really killing it this season and his reactions as Dad!Oliver are amazing. 

[LJones41]

Why is William calling Felicity "Mom"?  Why?  This makes no sense.  His mother, Samantha Clayton, had lived long enough for him to remember her before her death.  He had stayed with Oliver and Felicity for roughly a year before returing to his maternal grandparents.  Oliver didn't live very long afterward.  William never met Mia until right before the new Team Arrow was formed.  Which meant, he never really saw Felicity again until he met Mia for the first time.

I don't see anything wrong with him regarding Felicity as a mentor.  But to call her "Mom", despite the minimal interactions between the two?  Seriously?  I realize that this show tends to worship Felicity, but this is just going too far.

Quote

I like Mia, she can be annoying and she's certainly impetuous and somewhat inexperienced and stubborn but this whole season is about her growth as a person 

I don't.  I don't like her one bit.  I don't like these "bull in the china shop" types.  I can barely tolerate Oliver and Felicity some times.  Perhaps that's why I dislike Mia.  She's like an exaggerated example of the worst aspects of Oliver and Felicity's traits.

Edited November 6, 2019 by LJones41

[calliope1975]

William and Felicity spent several months in a high stress, dangerous situation with no one but each other. (Still side eyeing Digg over that nonsense.) I have no problem believing that caused a very quick, intense bond that would result in him calling her mom even though she was later not a part of his life. 

[Featherhat]

I wouldn't mind if William talked about his mother to Oliver, Mia or Connor (or whoever) this season but I don't mind that he calls Felicity "Mom", even though I agree it's a little strong and I wouldn't mind hearing his actual reasoning on this. 

He and Felicity were together in witness protection without Oliver or anyone else and she saved his life at least a couple of times. It also probably made him feel safer "part of" in the tiny family unit the Queen/Smoak/Claytons created in those short years. Maybe he or the writers don't like "Step mom" as a descriptor and "Felicity" is too unfamily-like?

Maybe the writers are trying to forget that whole BDM stupid plotline and the criminal waste of Anna Hopkins. 😉 

[Chaser]

Mentioning Samantha may remind the audience of Laurel’s role in her death and we all know that can’t happen.

Edited November 6, 2019 by Chaser

[tennisgurl]

14 minutes ago, Chaser said:

Mentioning Samantha may remind the audience of Laurel’s role in her death and we all know that can’t happen.

I mean, we cant blame Laurel for Williams mom dying or him being kidnapped and almost murdered or any of those other people she killed in cold blood! Her dad died, and as she is the only person ever who had a relative die, that means everything she did was justified! And she never got her birthday cake! Screw Samantha, will no one thinking about the birthday cake?!?

[Primal Slayer]

17 minutes ago, Chaser said:

Mentioning Samantha may remind the audience of Laurel’s role in her death and we all know that can’t happen.

We know the audience aint gonna remember, especially when the two never interacted with one another. 

[lemotomato]

32 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

We know the audience aint gonna remember, especially when the two never interacted with one another. 

The audience isn’t going to remember because the writers have actively ignored that fact that BS was an unrepentant killer that willingly worked for 3 of the big bads over 2 years. 

[apinknightmare]

1 hour ago, LJones41 said:

Why is William calling Felicity "Mom"?  Why?

Because he wants to. 

[Trisha]

This is really silly. Yes, having a one-sided phone call would be weird, but at least have a throwaway mention that he called her later. Or if not, then a mention that they decided not to call her because she'd want to come immediately and he needs her to stay safe in hiding. But not addressing it after that initial mention was dumb.

[lemotomato]

12 hours ago, LJones41 said:

I don't see anything wrong with him regarding Felicity as a mentor.  But to call her "Mom", despite the minimal interactions between the two?  Seriously?  I realize that this show tends to worship Felicity, but this is just going too far.

We don’t get to see a lot of family scenes in general because that’s the nature of the show, but the show spent as much time as it could showing how much quality time Felicity and a William spent together in season 6. She was helping him out with homework and giving him advice about school (603) and spending time with him while Oliver was helping Slade (605/606), baking cookies with him and helping him with his science project and otherwise doing everything a parent would do for their kid. Not to mention how she was the only parent he had for months in that summer between season 6 and 7. In fact, William probably spent more time with Felicity than he did with Oliver while they had custody of him. And then they spent time together when they met up again in the future, which was when William found out Felicity had been keeping an eye on him the whole time and was an angel investor when he was starting up his tech empire. That’s hardly “minimal interactions”.

Edited November 7, 2019 by lemotomato

[apinknightmare]

I don't think the Mom thing is really that weird or deep. William's bio mom died when he was young, Felicity was the first parental figure he bonded with after her death, when he was having a hard time relating to his father. He went to live with his grandparents, and while it seems like they took good care of him, he missed out on a parental connection for all those years. He sees that this woman who had an immense impact on him is alive, he finds out that he has a sister through her...William calling her Mom is probably just another way of making himself feel a part of their family unit, even if it is an unconventional one.

Edited November 6, 2019 by apinknightmare

[quarks]

58 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

We know the audience aint gonna remember, especially when the two never interacted with one another. 

Real Laurel and Samantha did have a brief interaction in episode 415 - an interaction that suggested that they also had at least met back when Oliver had his fling with Samantha. 

Not Laurel and Samantha presumably interacted at least briefly at the end of season 5.

That said, if Arrow wants to pretend that episode 415 never happened, I for one can live with that decision.

[GHScorpiosRule]

4 hours ago, way2interested said:

Oliver, recognizing the feelings Mia has because he's lived through s1-s7, wanted to stop her and talk (exactly what Thea told him to when Oliver himself was on an emotional rampage in 410).

I realize this. And I saw what Oliver was trying to show Mia. And I get why she's angry. But like I posted above, in that initial meeting, after she said "Dad?" at the end last week, I wanted a hug between them. And I'm pissed I didn't get that.

And since I have no desire whatsoever to watch the new show, if there is one (I don't know, I don't read the spoilers), I don't care about Mia's growth, or what future these three will end up in when they return to their present.

I'm just not as happy as everyone else with what took place. And to be clear, I wasn't expecting red bow ties, happy endings or rainbows.

[BkWurm1]

Quote

Oliver knew "his" William was gay. I . . . can't see it. 

It was implied that the reason William got kicked out of boarding school was because of an incident somehow connected to him being gay. They were late to the party in knowing what happened but I can't see them NOT finding out.  And I can totally see them holding that knowledge waiting for him to come to them about it when he's comfortable.  They STILL have never explained at all why William never saw Felicity again.  But that's never going to be answered because I'm pretty sure the writers never figured it out either.  

15 hours ago, Trini said:

Did they explain the time travel at all? Or did really just want to get into screwing the timeline like the other shows before the end?

Some god like figure zapped them from the future for "reasons." That about covers it.  

[RS3]

The episode was good. The emotional punch was at the beginning and it seemed to fall flat after that. William coming out was a standout, followed closely by the first scene. FANTASTIC job by Stephe, Kat and Ben with a special shoutout to Joseph. I loved how they're slowly and realistically approaching Mia's relationship with her dad. I was apprehensive of the Rene/Zoe story but it was actually okay. Connor is a soft little cutie and I want him to get all the hugs.

But some people weren't necessary in the episode. Dinah, not needed. Curtis wasn't needed (no offense to Echo who was shadowing but a quick cameo in the series finale would have sufficed). Siren wasn't needed. And no she did not convince Felicity to stop killing because there was another way or whatever she said to Mia to sell a spinoff. Felicity didn't kill him the first time to get Oliver out of prison and the second time because of the discussion she had with Oliver, to start fresh. So much retcon with that character. She did however stop Felicity from torturing one of the side villains and to use her genuis brain instead. That was good advice. 1 point for her. 

57 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

The audience isn’t going to remember because the writers have actively ignored that fact that BS was an unrepentant killer that willingly worked for 3 of the big bads over 2 years. 

They did seem to forget she left her earth for 3 years to terrorize E1 but suddenly she's grieving the E2 people including Adrian who - if I assume was playing for team hero since he's GA - only worked with her since 718? Anyways. It still irks me how their justification for this redemption is Oliver's own kills when he's never gotten off on killing like Laurel did when she snapped that unarmed begging guard, for example. Too bad she can't hear her poor little victims scream. Can't wait for future William to ask her how it was like to work side by side with the non-meta villain who murdered his mother! Hey, maybe that's why Oliver was/is a d*ck to you. 

[Josh371982]

5 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

Compared to the ppl she seems to wanna go up against.. Yeah.. JJ has gotten the best of her more than once in one on one fights.. Then she wants to take  run at the guy who trained JJ... And she's even tryna push Ollie... Homegirl has a seriously inflated sense of her skills.. And that inflation got Zoe killed... 

Turning her back to a killer after only knocking him down helped with that. 

[BkWurm1]

1 hour ago, lemotomato said:

We don’t get to see a lot of family scenes in general because that’s the nature of the show, but the show spent as much time as it could showing how much quality time Felicity and a William spent together in season 6. She was helping him out with homework and giving him advice about school (603) and spending time with him while Oliver was helping Slade (605/606), baking cookies with him and helping him with his science project and otherwise doing everything a parent would do for their kid. Not to mention how she was the only parent he had for months in that summer between season 6 and 7. In fact, William probably spent more time with Felicity than he did with Oliver while they had custody of him. That’s hardly “minimal interactions”.

While they were in witness protection it's also reasonable to think undercover he had to call her mom.  After 6 months that probably came more naturally than Felicity.  And I also think he doubled down on it after he reconnected to her.  And it's easy to call her mom when that's how Mia thinks of her too.  

I really enjoyed how naturally it sounded when he said it.  Doesn't matter what anyone looking outside in might think, to William, she's his mom.  Doesn't mean he forgot his other mom but it's clear he loved Felicity and thinks of her that way.  And how adorable was it when he and Oliver were talking about Mia's stubborn broody self and they blamed Felicity and then broke out into giggles about it.   

William was the glue that made so much of this episode work.  Every scene between him and Oliver felt genuine.  And he made IMO Mia and Oliver's scenes work better, helping the audience and Oliver to better understand what she's feeling.  

He also called Curtis really annoying so I laughed hard at that.  

It was a very good episode.  I was also surprised how invested I was with Diggle and Connor's relationship.  So freaking complicated.  It was really well done and great acting from both parties.

I appreciated Dinah telling Rene he can change the future.  Sure, save Zoe but save the city too thank you very much (and give me Lucas as a bonus, lol).  Rene and his pain over Zoe was good but Rene finds out he was a corrupt politician and his part in the destruction of the city led to all the crime and yes, to Zoe's death but  he didn't seem to spare a second on that part of it.  

Apart from Laurel's dumb line about her finding Oliver a dick (like we were supposed to laugh WITH her?) I liked her talk with Mia.  It worked.  The only thing that didn't work in the end was locking Wade up when Mia just told everyone he ALWAY breaks out an that's part of what builds up his fan base.  Mia wants to find another way so great, but show, how about actually come up with another option?  As it was left I think we are to hope by taking him down sooner than the first time it changes everything?  That's pretty nebulous of a change.  

Still, I'll take it if they undo all the crap we saw happen,lol.  I won't care then if it was a good plan or not, just as long as it works.  

Quote

I realize this. And I saw what Oliver was trying to show Mia. And I get why she's angry. But like I posted above, in that initial meeting, after she said "Dad?" at the end last week, I wanted a hug between them. And I'm pissed I didn't get that.

I loved that we could see how much Mia DID want to just run and hug her dad, that was her first instinct cause she has both of her parent's hearts, but she has all of their insecurities too without the earned maturity and experience.  That moment when Oliver stepped toward her and she flinched and backed out of reach, that was one of my favorite moments.  It was so true to her character.  Her heart is in her eyes but she feels so deeply that it's not that easy.     

My heart broke for both her and Oliver.  And I can't wait to watch as they get closer and closer.  The hug is still coming, I'm sure of it.  

Edited November 6, 2019 by BkWurm1

[Josh371982]

4 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

Except she turns around and does the same thing in wanting to go after grant.. In fact it's worse because she has no idea of this 2019 world.. Who's helping grant etc.

Yeah that's not particularly admirable if in doing so ppl have to put themselves in danger to save you.. 

From her introduction to now I don't feel she's learned much of anything. She's just a pastiche of  tough kid/ lone wolf/ daddy issues tropes... And maybe it would be bearable if she was a lesser character but as oliver's kid and soon to be star of her own show.. She's really unlikeable... I haven't seen any real fighting skill that sets her apart.. She's had  tough life.. But is it that much tougher than others... She displays no real social skills.. Other than being a really attractive girl the show hasn't given me a reason why Connor is into her... She's been around for a bit now a d its no growth.. And no admitting that how she's doing what she's doing isn't working... 

They didn't HAVE to put themselves in danger they CHOSE to. Mia hasnt made anyone do a goddamm thing.

[Josh371982]

3 hours ago, LJones41 said:

Why is William calling Felicity "Mom"?  Why?  This makes no sense.  His mother, Samantha Clayton, had lived long enough for him to remember her before her death.  He had stayed with Oliver and Felicity for roughly a year before returing to his maternal grandparents.  Oliver didn't live very long afterward.  William never met Mia until right before the new Team Arrow was formed.  Which meant, he never really saw Felicity again until he met Mia for the first time.

I don't see anything wrong with him regarding Felicity as a mentor.  But to call her "Mom", despite the minimal interactions between the two?  Seriously?  I realize that this show tends to worship Felicity, but this is just going too far.

I don't.  I don't like her one bit.  I don't like these "bull in the china shop" types.  I can barely tolerate Oliver and Felicity some times.  Perhaps that's why I dislike Mia.  She's like an exaggerated example of the worst aspects of Oliver and Felicity's traits.

He calls her mom cause she took care of him when his father was in Jail and they bonded got closer. Hes more than allowed too. And Oliver and Felicity(and Mia) at their worst are still better people than the mass murderer they "redeemed" and ignore that she killed people just for the hell of it. And the two other people on the team who acted all high and mighty two seasons ago and got all mad cause Oliver put one of them in the hospital for defending himself when getting swung on by an AX. That's just one example