S02.E10: This is Not for Tears

[BlackberryJam]

Just drilling a little deeper, Kendall has gone from "My dad's plan is better" to "My dad is a festering boil on the ass of the company" in his interviews. I'd also have to check, and we didn't see his full testimony, but Kendall may have just outed himself for perjury during the Congressional hearings. 

Shiv's new nightmare is Kira changing her mind again and testifying or giving interviews, and adding in how Shiv manipulated her into not testifying initially.

I don't really see a downside for Roman from Kendall attempting to sacrifice Logan. Roman now seems to realize that he's not actually qualified to be COO and I'm not sure he wants it if he's not in a fight for Logan's love and attention. 

Connor seems unlikely to get that 100 million (just a little money) from Logan now because he's still an embarrassment and Logan won't be able to focus on Connor's problems.

In Season 3, I am hoping for Marcia filing ot invalidate the prenup (because you know there was a prenup) or Logan having signed a revocation of the prenup while recovering from the stroke. Something where Marcia wants either a huge stack of cash or to takeover. 

[smartymarty]

2 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Logan having signed a revocation of the prenup while recovering from the stroke

Are you suggesting he signed while not competent? Because that wouldn't hold up.

[haje]

I just don't buy this idea that certain viewers have that Logan was in on this or somehow knew Kendall would publicly call him out for criminal wrongdoing and provide receipts. It's giving Logan way too much credit. This season in particular showcased how fallible Logan is. He goes by instinct, he's a bully and the times we've seen him "win" is not through master planning but due to sheer force of personality and through money. Maybe when he was younger he was some sort of business genius but that's not the Logan this show has shown us this season especially. And yes Brian Cox thinks otherwise but Brian Cox is going to bat for his character no matter what so of course he thinks that. He also thinks Logan hitting Roman in Argestes was the first time he's ever hit him and I don't buy that at all.

Jesse Armstrong was asked about that theory in another interview and his first reaction was "Okay, wow." (to which the interviewer of said interview mentioned how his reaction definitely felt more of an "Are you kidding me?" but was trying to be polite about it) and then just says "All interpretations are valid".

I'm willing to buy the idea that deep down Logan maybe knew that Kendall would ultimately betray him but to believe that Logan somehow orchestrated this whole thing so his own son would call him out on live television and have documents of Logan covering up criminal wrongdoing (which Logan doesn't even know Greg has) is assuming that Logan has an even an ounce of selflessness in him and I don't believe it at all. He was 100% willing to have Kendall take the fall. He's spent the entire season breaking down Kendall enough so that Kendall would ultimately accept his fate without protest but the moment he called that boy who died an NRPI to Kendall was the moment, I believe, that Kendall decided there was no way he was going to take it lying down. 

Also, Emily Vanderwerff on twitter has a great thread on how this show isn't a show that's about providing twists or revealing that so and so person has a master plan. People seem to think its storytelling is like Game of Thrones or Westworld and build theories upon theories about how so and so character have a secret hidden alliance we haven't seen yet or how so and so character has planned this all along and I just don't think that's the type of show Armstrong and Co. are writing here.

Edited to add a link to an article by Emily where she expands on her points from that twitter thread regarding this show and how it does its storytelling.

Edited October 16, 2019 by haje

[sistermagpie]

17 minutes ago, haje said:

He also thinks Logan hitting Roman in Argestes was the first time he's ever hit him and I don't buy that at all.

The characters themselves mentioned Logan hitting Roman with a shoe for ordering lobster in a restaurant. (And Roman jumped to his defense, explaining that it's rude to order the most expensive thing on the menu when you're a guest!)

19 minutes ago, haje said:

People seem to think its storytelling is like Game of Thrones or Westworld and build theories upon theories about how so and so character have a secret hidden alliance we haven't seen yet or how so and so character has planned this all along and I just don't think that's the type of show Armstrong and Co. are writing here.

Yes, the show always seems to be the opposite of the secret mastermind plots show. People act out of emotions far more than real strategy. Sure sometimes there are strategies and plots, but the show's usually pretty upfront about it.

It reminds me of on The Americans how there were always theories about how characters presented as being one thing with no hints there was anything else going on with them would suddenly be revealed to be undercover spies that were manipulating every event according to their plan--same thing, and just like here, never the kind of thing the show was doing. 

[cardigirl]

I think that if Logan was not "in" on Kendall's betrayal, he was at least "in" on waiting to see what Kendall would do, and that was what that little tiniest of tiny smiles was about at the end of the show. He wanted a killer for the company, and now he knows that he's got one.

I know a lot of people were worried about Tom and what would happen to him, before the episode aired, but I never thought his head on spike would be "big" enough to satisfy the shareholders.  I always thought it would have to be either Logan or Kendall who would have to go, and indeed, that initial scene, where Logan is speaking with an investor and is being told that it has to be him, sets up the rest of the episode. 

Loved that Roman finally got serious and told his father he couldn't save him with the deal. As much as he wanted to believe it was real, he couldn't lie about it. I think that truthfulness touched Logan, so he gave Roman the COO job as a reward.  We'll see if he gets to keep it. 

Shiv couldn't be the killer and sacrifice Tom for the business (although I doubt that would have satisfied anyone). She might get to keep her marriage. 

So Kendall gets sacrificed.  All season long he's been playing "the good son," trying to take care of Dad, and now he gets this opportunity to become something else.  He was broken and remade into what?  A ruthless, driven, businessman, who will take down his own father to save the company.  How long has Kendall been waiting for this opportunity?  When did Greg(ory) share the evidence he had? All valid questions I think.  Kendall is a little different from his father because he expressed some disgust at the cruise line's misadventures and dealings. We'll see if he is serious about cleaning that up, or just grabbing power.

And, I think you can still see some parallels to GOT with this show in that there is a prize to be captured and several players trying to reach it. You have relationships and betrayals and surprises along the way. There are twists involved. I don't think it denigrates Succession to make that comparison at all. People are fighting and betraying each other to get to the top. This just happens to be very rich, very messed up people doing it. 

[Princess Sparkle]

On 10/15/2019 at 3:23 PM, smartymarty said:

Also, how did Kendall find out that Greg has documents?  Also off-screen? And Greg only saved 3-4 pieces of paper. They really are damning enough? Greg, you really should have scanned all of them.)

This has been mentioned a couple times, but they actually set it up in the season 1 finale that Kendall knew about the documents Greg had. Greg came to him at the wedding and told him about it after Greg was trying to make sure he didn't get fired.

I'm not sure if they knew back then that this was how they'd pay it off, but Kendall has had the info in his back pocket for a bit.

[BlackberryJam]

8 hours ago, smartymarty said:

Are you suggesting he signed while not competent? Because that wouldn't hold up.

His competency Is a question of fact to be determined by judge/jury depending on the state law and it could drive the story. I’m just spitballing some fun ideas.

Greg the Egg out there making Tomlettes. I love that pick up from S1.

[RealReality]

SO....I was talking about the finale with a friend of me and he floated a new conspiracy theory.....what if Kendall and Stewie planned the whole thing?

If the proxy battle was to oust Logan, and Stewie thought he might not have the votes, it's a good way to get rid of Logan. And Stewie just happened to be vacationing nearby?  And Kendall had mentioned Stewie prior to Logan agreeing to go.  

I don't remember the show details as accurately as some so I thought I'd bring this theory here first.  Thoughts anyone?,

Edited October 17, 2019 by RealReality

[smartymarty]

17 hours ago, Princess Sparkle said:

they actually set it up in the season 1 finale that Kendall knew about the documents Greg had.

Thank you! I'm thinking of re-watching the whole series now.

[AttackTurtle]

Am I correct in assuming that Greg gave Ken the documents he saved from Tom's mini bonfire?  I'm not sure why he'd give up his "insurance" policy unless his grandfather's words about Logan being worse than "Hitler" finally sunk in.  

I knew that Ken was going to double cross Logan.  Even in amidst his drug binges, he seemed to always be lurking and observing everything.  

Tom is/has been one of my favorites for  a while now.  Roman has also grown on me.  I think Shiv is very smart, but I don't think she as as smart as she thinks she is.  

Logan is absolutely despicable, but the actor is nailing the whole performance so well.  

I only started watching a few days ago (I'm a binger), but I have a feeling that this is HBO's next big hit.  It took a few episodes for me to be fully sold, but I'm in.  Can't wait for Season 3.

ETA:  I totally forgot about Greg telling Ken about his "insurance" policy at Tom and Shiv's wedding.  

Edited October 18, 2019 by AttackTurtle

[tennisgurl]

Maybe “Little Machiavellian Fuck” will be the name of Greg’s biography, instead of “a benign fungus.”

[scrb]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

Maybe “Little Machiavellian Fuck” will be the name of Greg’s biography, instead of “a benign fungus.”

Greg the motherfuckin’ egg.

That is what Kendall called him at Shivs wedding when Greg told him he had the Cruises evidence.

[sistermagpie]

15 hours ago, AttackTurtle said:

Am I correct in assuming that Greg gave Ken the documents he saved from Tom's mini bonfire?  I'm not sure why he'd give up his "insurance" policy unless his grandfather's words about Logan being worse than "Hitler" finally sunk in.  

It wouldn't be worth much, I imagine, after the whole thing had already been dragged into the light and somebody punished for it.

[scrb]

He took pictures of some documents while he was shredding.

[BrooklynRat]

On 10/15/2019 at 12:50 PM, luckylou said:

Problem is the phone call from the investor demanding his resignation.  Logan knows that he has to go if the family is to stay in control, but of course those on the board are afraid to vote for him to go.  So he  manipulates Ken...forcing Ken to either become that desired “killer” or else to become the sacrifice.  Thus the smile.

So I re-watched the finale and seeing it with the knowledge of how it ends, I have a totally new perspective. I now agree Logan spent the entire episode testing his potential successors, which included goading Ken to turn on him because he (and only he) understood the board would only accept him (Logan) as the sacrifice. 

Going around the table getting everyone’s input and nudging people to throw others under the bus was part of the test. Shiv initially seems like she has the killer instinct he so admired but in the end when she asks for Tom to be spared, she fails the ‘killer’ test. They even have a scene of a cartoonish Logan getting right up in her face saying the decision to sacrifice Tom is just the kind of thing  a worthy successor would be able to do. 

Roman excludes himself by protecting Gerry, and general show of weakness just targeting low level Frank and Greg.  

And so for the last half of the episode you see Logan mercilessly provoking Ken:  he dismisses Naomi out of the blue even though Ken says he was previously ok with it; he out of the blue ask Ken to set up a meeting with Stewy, even though earlier in the episode he won’t consider it. He knows it will involve Ken having to grovel and swallow what’s left of his pride. Add to that, at the actual meeting, without warning, his offer to Stewy includes cutting out Ken. Then when he finally announces to Ken he will in fact have to be the sacrifice, he takes the opportunity to tell him once again what a loser he is, withholds the fatherly approval he know Ken seeks so badly and, mocks him for not having any killer instinct. 

I say his entire plan was to find a way to have himself removed from the board in way that didn’t look like giving up so he could look like an unflinching titan until the end. Any of his kids would have suited him but Ken was the only one to pass his various ‘feats of strength’. 

Just because it was his plan though, doesn’t mean he’ll necessarily love the results (and hates that the board wanted him gone in the first place) and I’m so looking forward to the Season 3 power struggles, betrayals of loyalty and general mind fucks. 

[luckylou]

@BrooklynRat  I agree.  I think if Ken had done as he was told, Logan would have had to either go with Shiv or one of the toadies on the board when it became apparent he could not win the proxy fight unless he designated someone else to   run things.

Hard to believe that is what Logan really wanted. At the hearings Ken emerged as the one closest to being able to take charge.

On the other hand, I wonder if he expected Ken to come down as hard as he did and with the evidence supplied by Greg.

Edited October 21, 2019 by luckylou

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, BrooklynRat said:

I say his entire plan was to find a way to have himself removed from the board in way that didn’t look like giving up so he could look like an unflinching titan until the end. Any of his kids would have suited him but Ken was the only one to pass his various ‘feats of strength’. 

But how is he a Titan if he's thrown out? (Okay, I guess that's exactly what happened to the Titans so point taken!)

But I don't see how he looks stronger this way. In both situations the story is the same: the board is demanding Logan's head and getting it. This way Kendall makes it public they want it and everyone knows that if Logan gives in it's because he lost. If he just bowed out himself he could play it that he was innocent and the board wanted him to stay, but he's such a badass he chose to take the sins of the company onto himself.

[BrooklynRat]

4 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

But I don't see how he looks stronger this way. In both situations the story is the same: the board is demanding Logan's head and getting it. This way Kendall makes it public they want it and everyone knows that if Logan gives in it's because he lost. If he just bowed out himself he could play it that he was innocent and the board wanted him to stay, but he's such a badass he chose to take the sins of the company onto himself.

I think he thinks there’s more honor in being taken down by one of his own than by an outsider. 

[meowmommy]

On 10/15/2019 at 3:55 PM, luckylou said:

Greg probably made copies of all the documents. Those that were burned were probably copies of copies. Why wouldn’t he have done so?  Copy machines are everywhere.

That would have been smart, but then, why was Greg so panicky when Tom forced him to hand over the documents, and why did he frantically try to salvage a few sheets from the bonfire?

[Mothra]

Oh god in heaven I love this show.  I put it right there up with Deadwood.  I don't even care how Kendall knew about the papers Greg held back or that his father knows Kendall was implicated in the death of that waiter or if Tom is finally sacrificed (oh god I hope he isn't because how delicious to watch him squirm on his pin, not even a butterfly but more of a grub).  What will I do until the season begins?  Sit and twist my handkerchief?  Probably.

[Rockfish]

I just finished a delicious binge of both seasons and am jonesin’ for more. Reading through comments it feels as if I’m the only person not feeling sorry for Tom. Sure, he has feelings for Shiv and gets treated badly, but he’s a bully and is as cruel as the rest of them—he just doesn’t have as much power or wealth, so he holds back from necessity. JMO, not trying to sway anyone.

[scrb]

31 minutes ago, Rockfish said:

I just finished a delicious binge of both seasons and am jonesin’ for more. Reading through comments it feels as if I’m the only person not feeling sorry for Tom. Sure, he has feelings for Shiv and gets treated badly, but he’s a bully and is as cruel as the rest of them—he just doesn’t have as much power or wealth, so he holds back from necessity. JMO, not trying to sway anyone.

He's an entertaining character and McFayden is great.

But I can't muster up too much sympathy for someone who gets bullied and in turn bullies people below him.

No way you can rationalize punching down.

[Roaster]

2 hours ago, Rockfish said:

Reading through comments it feels as if I’m the only person not feeling sorry for Tom.

I feel sorry because he is obviously sad in his marriage and maybe the being super-rich thing isn't what he had hoped for.

But, yeah, he's a horrible person.  Every character on this show is horrible.  He rings true to life, though.  Don't we all know people like that: who suck upwards and bully downwards? It's not a pretty picture of humanity but a lot of people are like that.

[xaxat]

Put me in the "Logan got what he wanted" camp. I don't think it wasn't negotiated with Kendall and it was no sure thing. But I think Logan was baiting Kendall into "rebelling".

Logan knows (from the Facetime with the investor) that he will lose the proxy fight if he does not step down. Stewy and Sandy win. The family loses control.

Logan finds out that  the sovereign wealth fund money is not going to come through and they won't be able to go private. Stewy and Sandy win. The family loses control.

Now Logan could just resign and hand off control to get the votes of the pivotal investors, but he knows that there are a lot of dead bodies (literally) in the company history. Kendall's speech probably means that he has to step down. But they win the proxy fight, the company stays in family control. It also means that he bears the burden of all of the toxic history of the company, not his successor. They can run the post-Logan company with a clean sheet. 

My speculation? The battle next season is between Kendall and Roman, not Logan.

[sistermagpie]

46 minutes ago, xaxat said:

Now Logan could just resign and hand off control to get the votes of the pivotal investors, but he knows that there are a lot of dead bodies (literally) in the company history. Kendall's speech probably means that he has to step down. But they win the proxy fight, the company stays in family control. It also means that he bears the burden of all of the toxic history of the company, not his successor. They can run the post-Logan company with a clean sheet. 

But what would he have done if Kendall, who he's beaten down all season, hadn't suddenly stepped up then? Why not just tell Kendall to do it and work it out with him? 

[scrb]

If Logan truly wanted to sacrifice himself, he wouldn’t bother getting Kendall to throw him under the bus.

He would have just told his family that the investors wanted him out.

Why would he pursue indirect subterfuge?  

First, he hasn’t shown an ounce of selflessness.  When he said family was everything to him, none of the kids bought it.

I don’t buy that he wanted Kendall to turn on him because he wanted Ken to be ruthless.  Because again, he’s not interested in going away or giving up the throne.

Now, if he resigns for public consumption but still tried to run things from behind the scenes, maybe the drama of having Kendall betray him publicly would be a part of the subterfuge.

Don’t see how he’d be forced to resign but still control things because the scandal is very toxic.  One of the key sources of his power is that presidents and other politicians are beholden to him because ATN and other media holdings got them elected.  But if he took the blame for this scandal, he’d lose that influence.

[Rockfish]

9 hours ago, scrb said:

If Logan truly wanted to sacrifice himself, he wouldn’t bother getting Kendall to throw him under the bus.

He would have just told his family that the investors wanted him out....

If it did go down this way (Logan manipulating Kendall without Kendall realizing it), then Kendall ends up looking strong and moral—good leadership qualities—because he made the difficult-but-right choice of exposing his father’s sins. This could mean a 180-degree change in public perception of Waystar and also puts the younger generations of Roys in a better spot; Kendall also is strengthened in the eyes of the shareholders.

But I’m usually wrong in my predictions with this show (which makes it fun!), so maybe Kendall actually tried to become a big boy and betrayed his dad all on his on—to the dismay of Logan. 

[sistermagpie]

31 minutes ago, Rockfish said:

If it did go down this way (Logan manipulating Kendall without Kendall realizing it), then Kendall ends up looking strong and moral—good leadership qualities—because he made the difficult-but-right choice of exposing his father’s sins. This could mean a 180-degree change in public perception of Waystar and also puts the younger generations of Roys in a better spot; Kendall also is strengthened in the eyes of the shareholders.

But if that was Logan's thinking (and to be fair, Logan doesn't seem to really believe anybody cares about looking moral) that's even more reason for him to just tell Kendall what to do. There's no reason to try to trick him into it by telling him one thing and hinting you need to be ruthless in the hope that Kendall will respond to that the way he did.

[xaxat]

10 hours ago, scrb said:

 Because again, he’s not interested in going away or giving up the throne.

He (Logan) has to in order to keep the company in family hands. The investor who Face-timed him made it clear that his skull was the price for getting their votes to win the proxy fight for control of the company over Sandy and Stewy.

[RealReality]

22 hours ago, Rockfish said:

I just finished a delicious binge of both seasons and am jonesin’ for more. Reading through comments it feels as if I’m the only person not feeling sorry for Tom. Sure, he has feelings for Shiv and gets treated badly, but he’s a bully and is as cruel as the rest of them—he just doesn’t have as much power or wealth, so he holds back from necessity. JMO, not trying to sway anyone.

Its funny with Tom.  I have some funky short term memory with him. I feel awful for him and then he turns around and does something shitty in the pursuit of power and it's all gone. 

[xaxat]

Tom is so gloriously passive aggressive! 

"Maybe she can watch through the keyhole."

"I see a sea urchin. Let's move on to the next cove."

And, of course

"Thank you for the chicken."

[Snewtsie]

On 10/14/2019 at 2:09 PM, haje said:

Already annoyed by some viewers immediately going the "IT WAS LOGAN'S PLAN ALL ALONG" theorizing route. 

I don't think it was Logan's "plan", per se... but I do think Logan was testing Kendall.  Deep down, would Kendall rise to the occasion?  I'm convinced Logan didn't know how it would play out, and was ready to accept either outcome.  Logan had a hint of a prideful smirk on his face in the final shot, and that was such a powerful scene.  He respected Kendall, at long last.  

[Snewtsie]

On 10/15/2019 at 2:12 PM, DoubleUTeeEff said:

Here's what I think based on skimming the articles that northboundtrain linked to and the way Logan reacted to Kendall's press conference: It's not that Logan planned this whole thing out per se or was in cahoots with anyone, it's just that he knew it was a possibility. He's not playing 3D chess, but he is playing chess. He considered all of the outcomes and chose one that he could live with. Something that he considered was the fact whoever he made the blood sacrifice might possibly turn on him and fight back and he was including his own children in that possibility. We saw what happened at that table when they discussed who it should be. They were fighting amongst themselves but once one of them was chosen, it's not a big leap to consider that they would try and take Logan down as they went down. So Logan deliberately chose his own child because he figured if someone was going to fight back, it would be better for the family if it was one of the family. In other words, it wouldn't look good to the outside world if it seemed the family was circling the wagons while they threw an outsider to the wolves. This way, his family is "clean" and has a better chance of retaining control of the company. Choosing a family member plays better for him whether they fight back or don't but choosing an outsider could lose his family everything. He's hedging his bets.

If Logan were to bet on what Kendall would do before that press conference, I would guess he didn't think Kendall had it in him. I mean, he did give Kendall that whole "killer" speech. In Logan's eyes, did he think he was needling Kendall or was he justifying his actions? I don't know and I'm not sure Logan even knows.

I agree with your theory 100%.  I just posted it, too, and went back to read previous postings (and just saw yours, as well as some of the cast interviews).  I think Logan's "Killer" comment and the "NRPI" comment were made to see if those would push Kendall into fighting back.  I think he was hoping they would, but really didn't know for sure.  

[IslandGirl]

On 10/14/2019 at 2:11 PM, Pop Tart said:

I was thinking this too. If there'd been any paparazzi cameras around to see them all arriving by boat or helicopter to that massive, billion-dollar yacht for a Mediterranean cruise all while facing massive scandal for what happened on the cruise ships - not a good look at all. 

On another note I'd been thinking of the way in which Logan suddenly had Kendall get Naomi off the boat. It's not that it didn't make sense, as I thought it was pretty dumb of Kendall to bring her in the first place since they were definitely all there to discuss extremely private matters. At first Logan didn't say anything about her being there and then was suddenly making Kendall send her away because he hadn't had notice she was going to be there.

I was thinking that this might have been one of those micro-moments in which Logan does actually care about Kendall and thought that having her sent away was for Kendall's benefit so that Kendall would not have to face her after he's been told he's the blood sacrifice.

I'm probably attributing more thought to it than Logan would ever do, but it did occur to me it might have been an attempt at ta kindness on his part. Of course it was probably really just more of Logan bringing Kendall low.

Sorry I'm late to the party; I just binge watched the 2 seasons this week. I think Logan sent Naomi off the boat because of the intense drugs she & Kendall do together. I think he wanted/needed a sober Kendall for this huge decision. There may have been other side factors as well, but I think it was mostly (& justifiably) drug related.

On 10/14/2019 at 4:50 PM, car54 said:

I think Tom eating Logan's chicken might be my favorite scene of the whole series.   That bite he took said it all.

Heck yeah, that was my second favorite scene, the first being when he threw said chicken back onto the plate after biting it! 🙂 

On 10/14/2019 at 1:46 PM, Dminches said:

This is brilliant.  I can't stop watching it. (Hopefully everyone can link to a twitter video).

Succession take-off

I could kiss you on the lips for posting this! My son & I could not stop laughing & replaying it... 🙂 

[IslandGirl]

I get the bad optics/irony of it all, but I still think one can't compare taking a typical cruise with chartering a yacht which costs more than most people's homes! 🙂 

[IslandGirl]

On 10/14/2019 at 5:14 PM, northboundtrain said:

Well, Brian Cox is actually out in the press today addressing this very subject.

I have a LOT of thoughts, but a question, first, for someone who's already seen this press...would his comments actually count as a spoiler for S3 and therefore out of bounds for this thread? I wanted to err on the side of caution.

Thanks for posting this. Fascinating take Brian Cox has in that article:

"After the Roy family gathers on a yacht in the Mediterranean to choose their blood sacrifice, Logan Roy picks his son Kendall to take the fall for Waystar Royco’s cruise scandal — unless he actually picks him to commit patricide? It all depends on how you see Logan’s ever-so-slight grin in the episode’s final shot, as he watches Kendall declare his father a cancer to the family’s empire, implicating him in the scandal that threatens to destroy the company he built. “Logan is really setting Kendall up to become the man he has not been,” Cox says. The smile, then, is a moment of pride. He’s achieved what he was after. “My son has come of age. He’s now officially a killer."  <end quote>

Makes perfect sense with Logan's calm, shushing his offspring, & the oh so slight smile at the end...

Edited November 2, 2019 by IslandGirl
Because writing is in the editing...

[Snewtsie]

1 hour ago, IslandGirl said:

I could kiss you on the lips for posting this! My son & I could not stop laughing & replaying it... 🙂 

That Succession Take Off video is the best, LOLOLOLOLOL.  I finally just watched it, and the guy nails it!

[Malarkey Hour]

Maybe you guys have already mentioned this a million times but I recently re-watched the season finale and I'm about 99% sure SHIV KNEW exactly what Kendall was gonna do! Ughh..I want more Succession now!

[Slovenly Muse]

On 10/14/2019 at 8:57 AM, Penman61 said:

Dad: You're not a killer. A killer is what I need.

Kendall: [Becomes a killer]

Everyone: Kendall FTW outfoxes Dad!!

Me: Um...that's not outfoxing. That's Kendall still playing Dad's game.

It's funny, looking through this thread that seems to be the general takeaway, but I had a totally different read on that scene. I thought Kendall decided to turn on Logan after the "killer" speech NOT because Kendall was becoming a killer himself, but because he finally allowed himself to accept that even though he was directly responsible for the death of another human being, he really was NOT a "killer." And he didn't deserve to go to prison and suffer for his dad's crimes because of what he himself had done. Rather it was Logan, who threw common people (entertainers, cruise passengers, caterers) to the sharks in droves to maintain his own comfort and shrug it off as "no real people involved," who was the REAL killer, and the one who actually deserved to pay.

I didn't think Kendall was embracing being the killer his dad wanted, I thought he was taking the first steps to heal from the trauma he experienced, and try to set things right. Whether he will actually take responsibility for his OWN wrongdoing and admit his part in the caterer's death remains to be seen, but acknowledging how deeply it's affected him, and how little the human cost of their business has affected Logan, is a huge first step in the right direction. Kendall didn't do this to be a killer like his father. He did it because he wants to be a better person than his father, and to see the REAL killer taken down.

Did Logan set this in motion? Did he want Kendall to fight back and turn on him? Well, to believe that, I'd have to believe that Logan would be genuinely willing to suffer the consequences of his own actions, rather than see his child suffer in his place, and from everything we've seen of him this entire series, there's not a chance in hell. Logan wanted a human shield, and while he might respect Kendall's play, there's no way this was his plan, or this was what he wanted. He's not capable of that kind of selflessness.

[Nanrad]

On 10/15/2019 at 12:11 AM, ProudMary said:

When Roman was defending Gerri from those who wanted her to be the sacrifice, it was impressive that he seemed to be the only one who realized that it should not be a woman who was thrown to the lions for a corporate scandal where women were the victims.

This was my favorite moment of the ep, BUT he pulled the defense out of his ass. Lol. Great thinking on your feet, Rome. It’s truly amazing that he came up with a compelling and solid reason that some took the heat off of Gerri. His reason for defending her is entirely centered around self interest, but personal and professional.

[Slovenly Muse]

On 12/1/2019 at 11:12 PM, Nanrad said:

This was my favorite moment of the ep, BUT he pulled the defense out of his ass. Lol. Great thinking on your feet, Rome. It’s truly amazing that he came up with a compelling and solid reason that some took the heat off of Gerri. His reason for defending her is entirely centered around self interest, but personal and professional.

Yes. AND it goes to show how smart a player Gerri is. We don't know for sure how she feels about her and Roman's, erm... arrangement. We only see hints of her feelings, and the strongest hint was that it wasn't mutual. She didn't have to participate. She could have laughed it off and pretended it was one of his gross "jokes" and their relationship would have been fine, but by going with it, she cemented an alliance that is so much more than professional. A member of the family, who will probably always take priority over her, is now Ride or Die for Gerri. That is how you play the cards you're dealt to fucking perfection!

[Ellaria]

On 10/14/2019 at 12:20 AM, Bama said:

So, there was a very obvious cut during Kendall’s statement to a manila envelope in Greg’s hands when Kendall said “I’ve got documents that prove what Logan knew”.

Did Greg pick a side and give his Pants Papers to Kendall?

Was Kendall planning this all along? Urging Logan to meet with Stewy, knowing Stewie would tell them to fuck off? Forcing Logan’s hand?

Was Roman in on it? Killing the private money option to also force Logan’s hand?

 I feel like there’s been a lot more private scheming going on to get to this moment than the audience has seen.

Logan’s dismissal of Kendall not being a killer may have given Kendall the fire he needed to eviscerate Logan publicly but I don’t think what we saw was some last minute decision from Kendall.

 I think we’re going to find out a lot of Logan’s “pals” had a hand on the knife.

Brutus didn’t stab Caesar all alone after all.

This raises interesting questions...probably the questions we should be asking. Greg didn't choose to side with Kendall when they left the yacht. He offered the information about the existence of those documents to Kendall in S1. That's when he made his choice. It was a card that Kendall played at the right time.

I thought that the meeting with Stewie was odd and the outcome seemed inevitable. Perhaps that was part of Kendall's plan. However, I don't think Roman - and his honesty about the private money - was. Roman still seems like too much of a wild card to be included in Kendall's plan.

I could believe that Kendall had been plotting something like this for awhile...waiting to see if the pieces fell into place. I'd like to think that someone was playing a long game.

On 10/14/2019 at 1:54 AM, gadzooks said:

I was wondering if Kendall's kiss on Logan's cheek was a sign of upcoming betrayal sort of a "Judas Kiss".    

As I watched it I was reminded of Michael's kiss to Fredo on New Year's Eve in The Godfather II. While not exactly the same circumstances, I thought it indicated that Kendall would betray him.

On 10/16/2019 at 1:59 PM, haje said:

I just don't buy this idea that certain viewers have that Logan was in on this or somehow knew Kendall would publicly call him out for criminal wrongdoing and provide receipts. It's giving Logan way too much credit. This season in particular showcased how fallible Logan is. He goes by instinct, he's a bully and the times we've seen him "win" is not through master planning but due to sheer force of personality and through money. Maybe when he was younger he was some sort of business genius but that's not the Logan this show has shown us this season especially.  

I don't buy it, either, because it would invalidate much of the scene where Logan tells Kendall that he isn't a killer. It assigns a certain amount of self-awareness to Logan that I don't believe that he possesses. He is abusive and a bully and personally needs to win all the time.

Rather, as mentioned above, I could believe that Kendall may have been planning this for awhile, depending how circumstances played out.

Other moments that stood out:

• Tom's "sadness" comment. Finally!
• Shiv's reaction to that comment.
• Marcia's absence and Logan's regret. (I missed her, too.)
• Roman's defense of Gerri.
• THAT YACHT!

Edited December 15, 2019 by Ellaria Sand

[Ms Blue Jay]

On 10/17/2019 at 10:54 PM, AttackTurtle said:

Am I correct in assuming that Greg gave Ken the documents he saved from Tom's mini bonfire?  I'm not sure why he'd give up his "insurance" policy unless his grandfather's words about Logan being worse than "Hitler" finally sunk in.  

He can give Ken the documents but still make copies of them before doing so.

[Wouldofshouldof]

On 10/14/2019 at 12:55 AM, RedDelicious said:

Sidebar can we acknowledge how hot Matthew McFayden looked swimming off the yacht 🔥

Eh, you can have him.  I'll take that yacht!

[Milburn Stone]

On 11/2/2019 at 9:55 AM, IslandGirl said:

I get the bad optics/irony of it all, but I still think one can't compare taking a typical cruise with chartering a yacht which costs more than most people's homes! 🙂 

Was the yacht chartered? I assumed Waystar Royco owned it. Which makes it even more deliciously obscene.

[FemmyV]

On 10/14/2019 at 12:55 AM, RedDelicious said:

Sidebar can we acknowledge how hot Matthew McFayden looked swimming off the yacht 🔥

I'm still marveling that this is the same dude who played Mr. Darcy. Excellent actor but damn, Tom's selective morality is annoying AF. The "unhappier" line was absolutely brilliant but the Minnesota boy-scout act wears thin when I consider his enthusiasm for setting Greg up to be his fall guy. 

[FemmyV]

On 10/14/2019 at 10:10 AM, BlackberryJam said:

Was the investor on the phone with Logan played by Julian Sands? I checked IMDb and couldn’t find a credit at all. It was blurry video calling, but I had a Julian Sands vibe from the voice.

 

I also thought it sounded like Sands but

 

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0942202/

[DrSparkles]

I just binge re-watched seasons one and two in preparation for season three, and I kind of giggled at all the comments on how people can’t wait until 2020 for the new season ☹️

[Milburn Stone]

4 hours ago, DrSparkles said:

I just binge re-watched seasons one and two in preparation for season three, and I kind of giggled at all the comments on how people can’t wait until 2020 for the new season ☹️

It has been so long since this episode aired that I unknowingly watched it two nights ago thinking it was the opener of S3! That's right, I watched the entire thing without even a faint sense of deja vu--that's how much it had vanished from my consciousness.

(Not sorry I did, though, because it set up S3E1 nicely.)

[Macbeth]

One of the biggest WTFs for me was the fact that Logan had no problem going through with the foreign investment even though his son was held hostage at gunpoint.  The deal was struck with a gun pointed at Roman.  And Logan was fine with that showed what a true monster he is.  Kendall tried to oust him - so Kendall going to jail for his crimes works for him.  That's tit for tat.  But Roman?  But let's face it - all of the kids are hostages to Logan seeking approval and love.  His own kids are hostages to him.

From a business stand point it didn't make sense at all either.  Obviously that government is in flux and you don't make deals with people who point a gun at you.  And pointing a gun at Roman is the same as pointing it Logan even though Logan doesn't understand that.  So whatever savy Logan has - he's lost it.  

Karl is just going through one ptsd moment after another - and he would never fight Logan.  Laird's pissed because to him - after nearly being killed he expected to at least get paid.  So it was up to Roman to tank the deal.  

The only way Roman could do that was to claim that the person he was negotiating with was high on coke.  And thus couldn't be trusted.  Like Kendall.  And Logan definitely doesn't want another Kendall in his life.

Edited January 23, 2022 by Macbeth