S04.E04: Flip a Coin

[WendyM]

On 10/19/2019 at 1:44 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I have no issue with Cassidy going makeup-free. Yes, there are some people who refuse to leave the house without full hair and makeup, but there are lots of other people who walk around with bare faces and their hair pulled into a ponytail every single day, even people who aren't recovering alcoholics going through divorces who have PTSD - regular people who aren't going through a ton of stress but choose not to go through the ritual of putting on makeup every single day. There is definitely a huge range with the women I know. Some just wear lip gloss. Others put on a full face of makeup (foundation, mascara, eye shadow, concealer, blush, lipstick). Others are somewhere in between. No one HAS to wear makeup. Some people love it and some people can't be bothered, whether it's the time or the money it requires.

I don't have an issue, either. I would actually be surprised if the character wore a full face of makeup. A former soldier who's now going through tough times at home? I wouldn't think makeup would be a priority. She looks like she's in pain and she is in pain.

[Lady Calypso]

Preview talk does NOT belong in the episode threads. Posts have been removed accordingly. Take the preview talk to the appropriate Preview thread.

[gonzosgirrl]

6 hours ago, himela said:

Kate was right being mad at Toby for going to the gym. I get the get healthy motion but he could make his diet better and wait for the gym thing after the baby was a little older. Kate needs all the support possible now and him staying away from the house for more time than needed for his job was inconsiderate in my opinion. 

I can't agree with this. He was (maybe) wrong for not telling her what he was doing, but as another poster so eloquently put it, he was not losing weight at Kate. By all appearances, he's a doting dad, and there has never been any indication he was putting the onus on Kate to take care of the baby or the house in general, alone. He is under just as much stress as she is, so why should he not try a healthy approach to dealing with it? Would it somehow be better for Kate if he decided to literally eat his emotions instead? If his losing weight and getting healthier is somehow a problem, it is Kate's problem, not his. He's shown his willingness to support her and even if it was wrong-headed, he avoided telling her in an effort to spare her feelings. And Kate proved him right, both with her initial reaction, and with her snotty comments to him in the car after the baby-music debacle. Maybe her response is understandable, and she is not (yet) the villain here - but neither is Toby.

[MissLucas]

Yes, it's his body and his health. And things won't get easier when Jack gets older. Quite the contrary - looking after a toddler who's out to explore the world isn't a piece of cake either.

[himela]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I can't agree with this. He was (maybe) wrong for not telling her what he was doing, but as another poster so eloquently put it, he was not losing weight at Kate. By all appearances, he's a doting dad, and there has never been any indication he was putting the onus on Kate to take care of the baby or the house in general, alone. He is under just as much stress as she is, so why should he not try a healthy approach to dealing with it? Would it somehow be better for Kate if he decided to literally eat his emotions instead? If his losing weight and getting healthier is somehow a problem, it is Kate's problem, not his. He's shown his willingness to support her and even if it was wrong-headed, he avoided telling her in an effort to spare her feelings. And Kate proved him right, both with her initial reaction, and with her snotty comments to him in the car after the baby-music debacle. Maybe her response is understandable, and she is not (yet) the villain here - but neither is Toby.

Kate was not angry for him losing weight. She said "the baby loves his monkey doll which you would have known if you spent more time at home and less at the gym". So the way I interpreted it was that she needs help and support with the baby and a man choosing to go to the gym (or wherever else) rather than support his wife is inconsiderate in my opinion. You are commenting on her having a problem with Toby losing weight but I think she has gone past it. Now her problem is that he is not there as soon as his job is over for the day to help with the baby.

[gonzosgirrl]

2 minutes ago, himela said:

She said "the baby loves his monkey doll which you would have known if you spent more time at home and less at the gym".

Yes, she said that (quite bitchily), but it was clear, at least to me, that Toby knew full well that the baby loves the monkey doll. He just forgot it, which was understandable given the long list of things that he did get ready for their trip to the music thing. And then he was the one who went back in for the toy, while Kate didn't really seem to do much of anything except give orders. IMO, the whole 'you would have known' thing was her being her usual passive-aggressive self.

[himela]

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Yes, she said that (quite bitchily), but it was clear, at least to me, that Toby knew full well that the baby loves the monkey doll. He just forgot it, which was understandable given the long list of things that he did get ready for their trip to the music thing. And then he was the one who went back in for the toy, while Kate didn't really seem to do much of anything except give orders. IMO, the whole 'you would have known' thing was her being her usual passive-aggressive self.

I don't love Kate but I do feel for her. She had a difficult pregnancy, her baby was premature, he had to stay in the hospital for who knows how long, he is blind.. If I were her I would be even more angry with my husband choosing this period of time to start spending time at the gym. At least he could do some work out at home while helping with the baby. Kate needs his emotional support more than anything. Men usually are the ones that see a problem and they try to fix it, while women would sometimes want them to just hug them and comfort them BEFORE trying to fix the problem. Maybe it's just me. But I understand Kate.

[Crs97]

I don’t recall her saying anything about his being gone too much until she found out where he’s going.  And if this is how she reacts when he is there to help, it’s not surprising that he leaves.

[MissLucas]

But we have no indication that Toby is not helping out at home except that one passive-aggressive line by Kate said in the middle of a fight. I understand Kate's anger but we're talking about forgetting one stuffed animal (while getting everything else ready) that's hardly a sign of being negligent about his parental duties. If anything I think it rather smells of resentment on her part - not just because he's losing weight but because she wishes to get away from time to time too. And that's something she needs to face and put into proper words instead of lashing out during a stressful situation. 

[theatremouse]

43 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Yes, she said that (quite bitchily), but it was clear, at least to me, that Toby knew full well that the baby loves the monkey doll. He just forgot it, which was understandable given the long list of things that he did get ready for their trip to the music thing. 

She was not arguing about his knowing about the baby loving the monkey doll. She was arguing about his not knowing an apparently recent-ish occurrence that the baby no longer finds the secondary replacement monkey doll acceptable. It was only one line but seemed to be intended to cover a whole extra chunk of time that made them even later than just him running back in to grab the original intended doll. It was a stupid argument but the quibbley bit wasn't about forgetting the initial doll but the extra delays by then not being able to find it and whether a suitable alternative existed or not.

[gonzosgirrl]

13 minutes ago, theatremouse said:

She was not arguing about his knowing about the baby loving the monkey doll. She was arguing about his not knowing an apparently recent-ish occurrence that the baby no longer finds the secondary replacement monkey doll acceptable. It was only one line but seemed to be intended to cover a whole extra chunk of time that made them even later than just him running back in to grab the original intended doll. It was a stupid argument but the quibbley bit wasn't about forgetting the initial doll but the extra delays by then not being able to find it and whether a suitable alternative existed or not.

Yes, that was the nastiness in the car after the debacle. My point was, he was clearly 'there' for her and Jack, doing all the work to get them ready to go in the first place. And then when she realized they didn't have the monkey, it was Toby who went back in for it. So yeah, he maybe didn't know there was a newer, more loved monkey, but jeez - he's the one working outside the home every day. Kate is there every day, so it's not a high crime that Toby didn't know about the new one. And regardless, it was bitchy of her to throw it in his face like that just because her plan for the music thing didn't work out this time. I'm willing to bet if he said okay, I'll stay home while you get out for an hour or two, it would not be met with the same resentment. I'd also bet that if he was binge-eating to deal with his stress, she'd have a problem with that, too. Good grief, he just came off a depressive episode - you would think that his wife would be genuinely happy for him dealing this way, like she (dishonestly) told him she was after the initial freakout.

[Scarlett45]

I understand Kate is a new mom and stressed out (like all new Moms can be), but she was 100% in the WRONG regarding the comment she made to Toby about the gym. That was not about Jack or the monkey doll or their relationship, that was about HER and her own insecurities. She needs to really think about why she made that comment and work on herself. 

2 hours ago, MissLucas said:

If anything I think it rather smells of resentment on her part - not just because he's losing weight but because she wishes to get away from time to time too. And that's something she needs to face and put into proper words instead of lashing out during a stressful situation. 

I agree with you. She’s very resentful, but how she spoke to Toby wasn’t okay. 
 

11 hours ago, himela said:

A general comment, I think most people dislike Kate not because of her behavior but because of her being obese. In real life, people seem to take it really personally when an obese oerson doesn't really try to lose weight. I don't know why that is. They can see an obese person eating and say "OMG their health..." and be angry at them but if they see a really skinny, close to anorexic person, they will just feel sorry for them. 

I agree with this part of your post. When someone doesn’t like what a woman is doing (rightly or wrongly) the first thing people do is call her a slut or talk about her weight (whether she is obese or not). People are allowed to do all sorts of “not the most healthy things” to themselves, but only when it comes to being fat does society feel it’s has the right to constantly criticize someone for it (I think smoking is only 2nd place because it’s not always possible to tell if someone smokes and you can only smoke in certain spaces). If a fat person has a problem, it’s always related to them being fat (which is aggravating, fat people have regular lives like everyone else). That being said, Kate’s insecurities about her weight aren’t an excuse to lash out at her husband, the one person who’s supposed  to be on her side no matter what, and has been on her side since they met. 

[Ohmo]

On 10/18/2019 at 9:32 PM, CrystalBlue said:

Beth's dance demo just looked out of place in the parking lot, but they made it part of the story. 

I think what also made it out of place was that we've always seen Beth dance ballet.  As a child, teenager, and young woman she appeared to be highly classically trained.  When she was teaching when they lived in their old house, that was also a ballet studio or at least a very formal school.  The flash forwards have also shown her to be in charge of what looks to me to be a very formal setting.  Her dance in the parking lot seemed like a big departure from the type of dance (ballet) that Beth has always been associated with up to now.

[DebbieM4]

On 10/16/2019 at 7:16 AM, JudyObscure said:

Thank you.  That perpetual self-satisfied smirk was why I couldn't watch the Cosby show even before the scandal. I also didn't like the character she was playing, letting Rebecca talk on about her loss for awhile and then flatly stating that she had lost her husband months before, like some sort of one-upmanship move  Then while poor Rebecca falls all over herself apologizing, she doesn't say something like, "That's okay, you couldn't have known."  She just sits there with that superior condescending smile.

I agree.  I've never been a fan of hers.  She always seems to play the same kind of character, using the same two or three facial expressions.   I did watch the Cosby Show occasionally, but never enjoyed her at all.  She's okay on this show.  Very one-note and nothing we haven't seen her do before, though.

On 10/16/2019 at 2:16 PM, Kktjones said:

And I have to add that my favorite thing about the episode was NO Jack! (runs and hides)

You don't need to run away from me.  I'm with you 100%.  🙂

[Pallas]

On 10/19/2019 at 8:08 AM, icemiser69 said:

I fully expected Randall to spiral into a full blown anxiety attack when Rebecca basically forced him along with herself to go sit with Beth and Beth's mom (Carole).   That anxiety attack didn't happen when I think it should have.

When Randall is in control of any given situation, he seems to have the self-confidence to push through. 

I'm not sure. Young Randall relies on his family for direct help with negotiating his romantic life, and life in general. Here, he's made a goal of Beth Clarke; he's used to having his parents support his goals, and he knows that right now, his campaign to win Beth is stymied. 

Randall's anxiety attacks seem to be connected to performance, not shame. He's triggered by his fear of failing some quantifiable, establishment standard: a standard he recognizes -- despite his awkwardness -- and therefore fetishizes. At school? Perfect attendance, conduct and grades. On the job? Perfect results and reports. When he know or fears he's failed to meet this standard, the door's unbarred to his greatest terror: life's randomness. (What was his former career? "Weather futures.")  

Meanwhile, he's not only devoted to his mother, he trusts her, fundamentally. I don't recall ever seeing Randall embarrassed by Rebecca, even as a teen. He'll be blithely inviting her along on dates into his and Beth's mid-20's. I think this is something Carol immediately senses and holds against him: his attachment to his mother, and what that could mean for his girlfriend. (Along with the boy's complicated background, and her appraisal that his mother lacks a vocation, emotional reserve and inner resources.)   

Randall is the child who knows he won the greater part of his mother's heart; he also absorbed Jack Pearson's rulebook as a way of life. When it comes to girls his own age, he may not know the opening moves, but he knows where to go to get the answers. And he thinks there are answers; he thinks there is a golden, proven strategy, and that success is inevitable, if he works hard enough. He thinks of girls and women as a puzzle, and he's the boy who solves Rubik's cube.

[ShadowFacts]

13 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

I understand Kate is a new mom and stressed out (like all new Moms can be), but she was 100% in the WRONG regarding the comment she made to Toby about the gym. That was not about Jack or the monkey doll or their relationship, that was about HER and her own insecurities. She needs to really think about why she made that comment and work on herself. 

Exactly.  It wasn't about the monkey or that Toby wasn't around enough, it was about her own negative feelings about herself.  She said it out loud a couple episodes ago when everyone was over to their house, words to the effect of 'Toby was busy losing weight while I'm busy stress eating.'  She recognizes the problem, but hasn't yet taken steps to start to address it (she has a little bit, with the walks with her neighbor).  She has her mother right there, who specifically moved to be a help to her, who takes assiduous notes about Jack's care, and she needs to utilize that help.  Having breaks where she gets out of the house, or even just has Rebecca there with her, will do a lot and I hope we see that.

27 minutes ago, Pallas said:

Randall is the child who knows he won the greater part of his mother's heart; he also absorbed the Jack Pearson's rulebook as a way of life. When it comes to girls his own age, he may not know the opening moves, but he knows where to go to get the answers. And he thinks there are answers; he thinks there is a golden, proven strategy, and that success is inevitable, if he works hard enough. He thinks of girls and women as a puzzle, and he's the boy who solves Rubik's cube.

Wow, so insightful!  Yes, he thinks females are a puzzle to this day, and he's going to be working overtime on Deja and Tess, and eventually Annie, unless Annie adopts the Jack/Randall playbook, which she might do (or flame way out).

[kili]

Quote

And he thinks there are answers; he thinks there is a golden, proven strategy, and that success is inevitable, if he works hard enough. He thinks of girls and women as a puzzle, and he's the boy who solves Rubik's cube.

That explains so much about Randall. He also thought that curing William's cancer and finding William's "her" was a puzzle to solve. The answer is out there, if you just research and work hard enough. He could fix William's building if he just worked at hard enough. He can fix the neighbourhood if he just gets elected and he will get elected if he just works hard enough to figure out the electorate. 

It's a complete recipe for over work and pitt bull intensity on problems. It also explains why he works himself into mental breakdowns and goes of on epic obsessive quests. It results in him solving the "Problem of the Dance Studio Opossum" this week, but it also meant that he was never going to give up on that election last year no matter what he promised Beth.

This behaviour is in his nature, but it was fostered by his parents who accommodated it rather than re-directed it (e.g. the Hallowe'en treat map he had to follow and letting do homework all night in his bed)

[Higgins]

On 10/16/2019 at 12:40 PM, qtpye said:

'm sorry, but Beth thought Randall was creepy as hell until her mother said she did not like him. His obsession with a girl that has openly told him that she is not interested is not romantic and should not be presented as such.

If my husband didn't keep trying when I turned him down, I would have missed out on a wonderful life with a wonder husband and father. Nothing creepy about it. 

[Higgins]

On 10/18/2019 at 9:59 PM, Joana said:

Yup, that sums up my thoughts as well. I didn't think she was being overly and inappropriately sexual or anything - in fact, I thought she looked great! - it's just that her dancing didn't seem really... professional. It looked more like a random person suddenly breaking into a dance than a qualified instructor showing off their skills. I don't see why it would get people to sign up for her class either. 

Her dancing was pedestrian. Not good enough to showcase her teaching skill.

[Blakeston]

On 10/19/2019 at 4:40 PM, momma2seven said:

Pretty sure Kevin

Are you thinking of Justin Hartley in the movie Bad Moms, by any chance? I don't think Kevin's been naked on this show. Your point still stands, of course.

Re: Toby and the gym - wouldn't it make a whole lot more sense if he was hitting the gym during the workday? Anyone with half a brain who's trying to hide their exercising from their wife, and works outside the home, would do it on their lunch break.

That makes a lot more sense than saying you're running mysterious late night errands.

[qtpye]

1 hour ago, Higgins said:

If my husband didn't keep trying when I turned him down, I would have missed out on a wonderful life with a wonder husband and father. Nothing creepy about it. 

There is a whole Metoo movement that would disagree. Just because you enjoyed being pursued in this manner does not mean everyone does.  I have been pursued by men who would not take no for an answer and found threatening and harassing. There is a man that still hits me up though we only went out on a couple of dates and both of us are married with children. 

As a woman I knew who I wanted to be with. No one had to “convince me otherwise”. We just have to disagree on this point.

[Higgins]

13 minutes ago, qtpye said:

There is a whole Metoo movement that would disagree. Just because you enjoyed being pursued in this manner does not mean everyone does.  I have been pursued by men who would not take no for an answer and found threatening and harassing. There is a man that still hits me up though we only went out on a couple of dates and both of us are married with children. 

As a woman I knew who I wanted to be with. No one had to “convince me otherwise”. We just have to disagree on this point.

That's not what happened on this show. On this show a young man swayed a young woman and they married. There was nothing creepy about it. The Meetoo  movement has nothing to do with this scenario.

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, Higgins said:

That's not what happened on this show. On this show a young man swayed a young woman and they married. There was nothing creepy about it. The Meetoo  movement has nothing to do with this scenario.

There was a small thing written into this episode where Randall puts his lemon wedge on Beth's tray, and she later asks him why.  He says he noticed she had a lemon in her Coke before.  I think this was a bit of subtlety (that can be lacking in this show) that worked to demonstrate how Beth may have been impressed by having someone care what her likes and dislikes were, unlike her mother.  She wasn't just rebelling against her mother, she was being drawn in by his caring gesture.  She's possibly seeing in him some of her own father. 

[PepSinger]

On 10/18/2019 at 9:12 AM, Mars477 said:

Yeah, slut shaming a woman, particularly a black women (albeit a fictional character) for doing something mundane as dancing while wearing a dress that more or less reaches her ankles is pretty yikes.  Maybe if this was a show set in the 50s (the 1850s, that is) the pearl clutching would be warranted.  But Beth wasn’t twerking or grinding up on anybody, she was doing a traditional dance.

Guess we’re shaming Beth for doing a salsa,  shaming Cassidy for having stress lines, and shaming Kate for being obese.  Did I miss anyone?

On 10/18/2019 at 8:08 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Seriously. Beth wasn't being overtly sexual or inappropriate in her dance demo. I've seen far more hip grinding on DWTS. And she was more covered up than if she were wearing a bathing suit at the beach and WAY more covered up than many of the female pros on DWTS who wear costumes that are little more than a string of sequins (and for the record, I'm fine with those costumes too).

Hell, she was pretty covered up considering that she was at a dance studio. The most common outfit you see at dance classes these days are sports bras with booty shorts (which, again, still cover more than girls in bikinis at the pool). I keep thinking that we've moved past slut shaming women for the way they dress, the way they look, the way they dance, etc. but apparently not.

I started taking dance classes when I was three and I continued dancing until well into my 30s. Most of my dance teachers wore leotards, sports bras, etc. What Beth was wearing covered far more than that. I would have no problem with my husband or son seeing a woman dancing while wearing a long wrap dress. The outfit in question:

I just want to thank you both for stating so eloquently what was beginning to enrage me. Thank you. 

[Crs97]

Rewatched the Kate/Toby scene.  Toby knew about the monkey and at one point had it in hand, but when he was grabbing the extra milk he accidentally set the monkey in the fridge. Kate was mad that he didn’t pack the monkey first.  He then said the second monkey would have been fine, and she said no.  He showed amazing patience because hearing her yell at him after watching him run around while she was out for a stroll with the neighbor . . .

[memememe76]

Teen Randall wasn’t inserting himself into Beth’s life despite her protestations. Rebecca went to the table first. Then Teen Beth came to him to ask about the lemon wedge. And she kissed him. This is not a Metoo instance.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Carol gives Randall some serious props

Nicky tells Kevin and Cassidy about a lost love

[cameron]

On 10/17/2019 at 3:10 PM, Evagirl said:

I been reading that Chrissy Metz has lost over a 100 pounds.  It must have happened after the current season was filmed.  To me she looks heavier than she's ever been, especially in the face.  It's even difficult for her to comfortably hold the baby in the show.

I really, really, really do hope she's lost some weight.  The way she carries the excess weight just can't be doing her heart any favors.  She's such a lovely woman.  I've seen pictures of her about 100 pounds lighter but I don't know if they're current (yeah!!!!!) or past pics.

Maybe it's just me, but she looks huge this season.

Totally agree.  She actually waddles instead of walking.

[MJS]

On 10/16/2019 at 2:45 AM, MsJamieDornan said:

I took it as Kevin was showing her that even though you're having a shitty day, you can be nice to people.

I saw it as he’s not allowed to not be nice to people- he has to be on all the time for his fans. She actually has a luxury he doesn’t. Maybe she can have some empathy for the fact he always has to be this certain persona. 

[Mars477]

3 hours ago, MJS said:

I saw it as he’s not allowed to not be nice to people- he has to be on all the time for his fans. She actually has a luxury he doesn’t. Maybe she can have some empathy for the fact he always has to be this certain persona. 

She does.  The second she sees him have to snap his friendly celebrity setting to “on” she realizes she’s being a dick to him and apologizes.

[MJS]

4 hours ago, Mars477 said:

She does.  The second she sees him have to snap his friendly celebrity setting to “on” she realizes she’s being a dick to him and apologizes.

Yes, that was exactly my point. That she realized she could have empathy for him when she realized that. 

[maddie965]

On 10/18/2019 at 11:26 PM, MsJamieDornan said:

Because she is not your average everyday overweight person. She is not even a 100 lbs overweight  person. I won't say how much over I think she is but, she is not going to live long.

How is that even allowed in this board?

I still love the twins, but I skip all the scenes with Randall. Tks, show, fir ruining my second favorite character. Thank God for Kevin!

Edited March 11, 2020 by maddie965

[millennium]

Kevin was everything I like about Kevin in this episode.   I admire his ability to get out of his own way.

Don't like Mama C.   Can't separate her from Phylicia Rashad and her support for Bill Cosby.

I know it's not the same at all, maybe it was just the camera angle or that she was outside or whatever but when Beth was performing her dance exhibition sort of in the background all I could think of was Elaine Benes.

Relieved to see Randall didn't become a stalker after all and that Beth getting together with him was her idea. 

Randall telling Malik he can physically squash him like a bug was okay for a sitcom, but in real life, a father saying that to a teenage boy would be reprehensible. 

That tense scene with Toby and Kate in the car after the disastrous music session and they're sniping at each other about Monkey and Other Monkey ... probably the most realistic scene in this entire series, unfortunately.   What is it about cars and tension?  The confinement?   The irony that even though you're moving you can't get away from the person you're arguing with or the problems you're arguing about?  Ugh.

Cassidy Sharp and Nicky ... nope, still don't care.

Edited June 12, 2022 by millennium