S02.E05: Tern Haven

[BlackberryJam]

Holy fuck. The Roys are awful, awful people. So incapable of being genuine.

Shiv royally screwed herself. 

ETA: As Naomi and Kendall were looking at each other when he boarded the plane, I could see them both thinking “All I want is out from underneath this.”

Roman has some fucked up sexuality. 

Kendall waking up having messed the bed was disgusting, but somehow appropriate.

I get the feeling Marcia might walk out or abandon ship. I’m not sure if it’s ever been mentioned if she has an interest in the company or what’s in her pre-nup.

The Roy children are just so screwed up.

Edited September 9, 2019 by BlackberryJam

[cardigirl]

4 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

Shiv royally screwed herself. 

I kind of hope she did. She’s been bugging me a lot this season.

[BlackberryJam]

Just now, cardigirl said:

I kind of hope she did. She’s been bugging me a lot this season.

Her eyes were looking particularly puffy this episode. I struggle with eyeliner transfer on to my eyelids when I’m tired so I tend to notice this in other people. Shiv would have had her eyeliner smeared off this episode. I don’t know if I’ve noticed her lids being that droopy before.

Shiv’s treatment of Tom has been horrible, but I kind of saw what she got from him emotionally when he was building her up in the hallway.

[The Solution]

I totally ship Roman and Gerri.

[BlackberryJam]

1 minute ago, The Solution said:

I totally ship Roman and Gerri.

I ship myself and Gerri’s pajamas. 

[sistermagpie]

10 minutes ago, The Solution said:

I totally ship Roman and Gerri.

I saw a poll for what to call this ship and the clear winner was Gromulus.

Not sure what new name I loved more tonight, Gregory or Professor Can'tFuck.

Tom's best line for me: What a weird family! Also his genuine looks of concern as Shiv immolated herself. (One could say she and Kendall both shit the bed...)

[tennisgurl]

"What a weird family!" 

The Roy's are such a hot mess, especially when around this super rich intellectual left wing style clan with their Shakespeare quoting and multiple PHDs. The Greeks to their Romans indeed. There were so many awkward moments, but the worst was probably Shiv telling the guy got a HD "instead of just googling something" I mean ouch! Or maybe it was Roman making up a book that he read to sound more literary, and them actually googling it, or whatever Connor was doing at any given second. 

Of course, Shivs real fuck up was prematurely telling everyone that she is getting the keys to the kingdom. I actually gasped when she dropped that one! I knew that her arrogance would cause problems for her, but that is a serious blunder, she will be lucky if Logan lets her be an unpaid intern after that. The scene between her and Tom when he reassured her that she is already at the literal and metaphorical table was a nice insight into what she sees in him, although I still dont think she is anywhere as into him as he is into her. Tom might be with Shiv partially (or mostly) to get into the Roy inner circle, but he also does love her, and she does not have his back at all.

Did Logan actually say "Keep clean this weekend, eh killer?" to Kendall? Holy shit, thats seriously fucked up! Although, after Kendall say what happened when he drank and drove, maybe he should be trying to drink and pilot? 

"I like this sad, why cant we have this dad?"

[RealReality]

I had the feeling that shiv was trotted out to make the deal more palatable.  I don't know that Logan ever had the intention of making her his successor.  And he sure as shit wasn't going to do it at nans behest and after shivs display at dinner. 

Nan knows that she basically sold out the integrity of her family legacy for 30 pieces of silver.  Extra board seats and contracted editorial control are kinda toothless measures.  Having shiv publicly named as waystars successor would have ensured that someone they agreed with would be in charge.  

I want to feel sorry for shiv but I can't. 

Her dismissive "you fucked it" line to tom was so mean.  

How funny that Kendall was probably the most  instrumental in making the deal happen by talking to Naomi.  And she, in turn, spoke to nan. 

Hi cousin Gregory!

Edited September 9, 2019 by RealReality

[rue721]

Jeez, why did Kendall literally shit the bed? Is that from the coke? Weird. The weirdest part is that he had a legitimately good weekend otherwise, so I don't even really know what the show was trying to say. He seemed happier and more together than he has for a long time, practically pulled together the entire Pierce deal, and kept his addiction "within bounds."

Roman cracked me up. I actually felt a little bad for Geri, though. Sometimes it seems like she's kind of into it, and I can see why it would be fun for her to be Roman's secret dominatrix. But while he was in the bathroom jerking off this time, she sometimes had a look on her face like she felt like she kind of had to do this, like from a career strategy perspective.

This thing with Roman not being able to be attracted to Tabitha when there's any sign that she's turned on or attracted to him, though...it's pretty pathological. Something's for real wrong with that guy. Or maybe I'm naive and lots of men are like that hahaha

On the one hand, Shiv screwed herself, but on the other hand, it's not like Logan was ever going to give her the company anyway (or give anyone else the company, either -- this is not a man who is going to willingly give his empire away to anyone, someone is going to have to take it). So while I was embarrassed for her when she told the whole dinner party that she was the successor, and I felt bad for her brothers, I don't feel like there are really any consequences to it. Also, Shiv was going to have to face reality sometime that Logan was not ever going to peacefully transfer power to her, just like he wasn't to Kendall, and isn't to Geri, etc, so might as well face it sooner rather than later.

Also, she's been treating Tom as somewhat of a rival, and Tom initially was seeing her as a rival for the CEO position, too, but now they seem to have discovered that they're actually on the same team. They rise and fall together. Well, Shiv still might not be entirely convinced but Tom is.

That's going to be a problem when shit about (Mo)Lester and the cruises comes out, lol. Since Tom is implicated in that stuff now.

Why was Marcia so salty the whole time? What does she even want right now that she's not getting?

[showme]

2 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Kendall waking up having messed the bed was disgusting, but somehow appropriate.

Why is it "appropriate"? Is that a known side effect of drug use? If not, what does the particular scene trying to say?

Edited September 9, 2019 by showme

[RedDelicious]

46 minutes ago, showme said:

Why is it "appropriate"? Is that a known side effect of drug use? If not, what does the particular scene trying to say?

I think, literally and figuratively, they were trying to say that everything Kendall does goes to sh*t 😬

[showme]

Just now, RedDelicious said:

I think, literally and figuratively, they were trying to say that everything Kendall does goes to sh*t 😬

Except it didn't, on contrary,  they clearly showed in this episode, Ken saved the day, he got the crucial "yes" vote.

[RedDelicious]

They got the yes vote, but not without a side of yuck for Kendall. He didn’t come away clean 😉 Besides when they left there was no deal, despite the yes vote. Then the Pierces capitulated which was the non-verbal exchange on the helicopter between Logan and Gerri.

[ivygal]

gosh I love this show. almost as good is having an active forum to follow post-show. I've really missed that. Speaking of, is anyone following these guys & their recap podcast : "Number One Boys"?  

 https://twitter.com/i/broadcasts/1OwxWdRDVPRKQ

[Witchz]

4 hours ago, rue721 said:

Jeez, why did Kendall literally shit the bed? Is that from the coke? Weird. The weirdest part is that he had a legitimately good weekend otherwise, so I don't even really know what the show was trying to say. 

Drinking too much will eventually cause a person to lose control of their bowels. It's part of alcohol induced neuropathy- you know when you see a drunk homeless person that smells bad and that has pooped themself I too thought it was cause they dont have a bathroom. As it turns out that is not usually the case. Coke doesnt cause this but other drugs possibly could. Ask any police officer or nurse and they will tell you just how common place it is with drunk people.

[RealReality]

4 hours ago, rue721 said:

Roman cracked me up. I actually felt a little bad for Geri, though. Sometimes it seems like she's kind of into it, and I can see why it would be fun for her to be Roman's secret dominatrix. But while he was in the bathroom jerking off this time, she sometimes had a look on her face like she felt like she kind of had to do this, like from a career strategy perspective.

On the one hand, Shiv screwed herself, but on the other hand, it's not like Logan was ever going to give her the company anyway (or give anyone else the company, either -- this is not a man who is going to willingly give his empire away to anyone, someone is going to have to take it). So while I was embarrassed for her when she told the whole dinner party that she was the successor, and I felt bad for her brothers, I don't feel like there are really any consequences to it. Also, Shiv was going to have to face reality sometime that Logan was not ever going to peacefully transfer power to her, just like he wasn't to Kendall, and isn't to Geri, etc, so might as well face it sooner rather than later.

Why  was Marcia so salty the whole time? What does she even want right now that she's not getting?

At one point it almost looked like Gerri was rolling her eyes to me.  So I agree that it's probably not super hot for her.  

I agree with you in that I always had my doubts that Logan was going to transfer the company to shiv.  Not that Logan gives a shit, but now he has the benefit of being able to pin this fact of shivs behavior instead of just admitting to it.  Logically, if he has to name a successor, at this point I still think Kendall makes the most sense because Logan can control him. 

Color me confused about Marsha too. I guess she wants her own seat at the table and she has been relegated to "lady who turns off Alexa". 

After getting bested, what keeps Nan and her family from going to the biographer with juicy details of the weekend?

Edited September 9, 2019 by RealReality

[terrymct]

10 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Of course, Shivs real fuck up was prematurely telling everyone that she is getting the keys to the kingdom. I actually gasped when she dropped that one! I knew that her arrogance would cause problems for her, but that is a serious blunder, she will be lucky if Logan lets her be an unpaid intern after that.

I think Logan doesn't want to give up control and doesn't want to be seen as being put out to pasture.  He wants Shiv as a successor but not for a long long time and completely on his terms.

[showme]

4 minutes ago, terrymct said:

I think Logan doesn't want to give up control and doesn't want to be seen as being put out to pasture.  He wants Shiv as a successor but not for a long long time and completely on his terms.

Well, clearly Shiv has lost Logan's confidence in her after that huge gaffe at the dinner table. He'd rather lose the deal than announce her to the world. And frankly, if she is that immature, she is not a good choice for that job to begin with.

[Pop Tart]

21 minutes ago, showme said:

Well, clearly Shiv has lost Logan's confidence in her after that huge gaffe at the dinner table. He'd rather lose the deal than announce her to the world. And frankly, if she is that immature, she is not a good choice for that job to begin with.

And she, throughout this whole two day event, made many gaffes and mistakes. As did they all, except for Kendall (who was just mostly awkward, but still kept it together, other then the pooping the bed thing). And though I enjoyed every squirmy moment of all the interactions, I did think it stretched credibility a bit that the Roy offspring were so incapable of polite social behavior. It also seemed unbelievable to me that they all were meeting for the first time. 

Though they clearly come from different ends of the spectrum in terms of wealth - meaning generations of inherited money vs. nouveau riche - they move in a very small, rarified world of the wealthiest of the wealthy and I just don't believe that they wouldn't have encountered each other in schools, events, charities, etc. 

The Roys; Conner, Kendall, Shiv and Roman may have a mom and dad who are terrible, but I don't believe they wouldn't have gone to the best schools and swum in the "best" circles. So their cluelessness about how to interact at a posh party just didn't ring true to me. The occasional gaffe I could understand and their arrogance creeping out makes sense, but the complete inability to make meaningless chit chat? As I said, a bit hard to believe.

On another note, Jeremey Strong, though he's playing this beaten-down, depressed, shell of a man, just has chemistry with everyone he has a scene with. His interactions with Reya (Rhea?) and his confab with Naomi? So good. Really every moment of every scene he does, he manages to convey so much with the smallest of changes in facial expression or tone of voice.

This cast, pretty much universally is stellar, so I could call them each out for something, but JS just hits me every time.

Edited September 9, 2019 by Pop Tart

[RealReality]

22 minutes ago, showme said:

Well, clearly Shiv has lost Logan's confidence in her after that huge gaffe at the dinner table. He'd rather lose the deal than announce her to the world. And frankly, if she is that immature, she is not a good choice for that job to begin with.

Does or did he ever really want shiv to succeed him?

He made it a point to tell Tom to call him when his grandson was born.  I think it just shows that no matter what, Logan places more value in men......at the end of the day he may allow a woman to have a position of power (Gerri, cyd) but not the MOST powerful position. 

I also can't remember what brought about that weekend where he told shiv that she would be his successor.....BUT

1.  She was told to keep it secret

2. She was given an incredibly vague timeline and 

3. The family weekend was right before Logan started making noise about acquiring PGM

If Logan wanted PGM, he knew that having shiv on board and actively advocating was important.  Shiv hates the deal and she has some ideals when it comes to giving people something other than entertainment masked as news.  

PGM hates Logan and Nan would have dug her heels in about even meeting if she didn't know that shiv was there and may be the successor since they agree with her point if view.  Which is pretty public since she worked for the Bernie Sanders guy.

So no way does Logan even get a shot without shiv.  It may have been that the ONLY way to get shiv to really show up and advocate for the deal was to make her think she was going to inherit the kingdom. 

But no timelines, no real plans, shiv is only "brought in" as the talks with PGM are bearing fruit, Logan is kinda sexist, she isn't allowed to talk about it to anyone and she has a public profile that the PGM family will love.....just seems fishy.  

For someone as narcissistic as Logan, there will NEVER be anyone who will do the job better than him.  I think he'd announce a younger version of himself as successor if he could......the closest I think he will get is Kendall.  

Edited September 9, 2019 by RealReality

[Princess Sparkle]

I must admit, I literally gasped when Shiv said "tell them its me!" at dinner. She just cracked under the pressure, because now she's the one in the spotlight, not Kendall (or Roman, but Roman was never really on the table as a serious successor IMO).

I did feel bad for Tom knowing that no matter what happened that weekend, he was set to be the sacrificial lamb for getting the deal done. I think no matter what, Logan set him up to be shit on knowing that they could easily say "Oh, he won't be in charge of programming" and make it look like they were giving something up. And MAN did Matthew Macfadyen make my heart break when he told Shiv "You could stop beating up on me too." Tom could've been such a one note buffoon, and MM has really made him into a real person to care for.

Logan should also be careful at how much he shits on Gerri. The constant "She's not going to take over" is going to get him in trouble eventually.

[Pop Tart]

32 minutes ago, RealReality said:

PGM hates Logan and Nan would have dug her heels in about even meeting if she didn't know that shiv was there and may be the successor since they agree with her point if view.  Which is pretty public since she worked for the Bernie Sanders guy.

So no way does Logan even get a shot without shiv.  It may have been that the ONLY way to get shiv to really show up and advocate for the deal was to make her think she was going to inherit the kingdom. 

I do think that his offering Shiv the job and the PGM deal are intertwined. He is definitely someone who is thinking about 100 steps ahead. So at the family get-together in the first episode where they were ostensibly meeting to discuss whether to sell or not was probably about that, but also about getting Shiv into the mix as a palatable addition to a deal with the Pierce's.

As regards Nan Pierce and her demanding Shiv be the successor, I think that was game-playing on her part as well. She needed a fig leaf for making this deal, one that could help her save face for not only selling the company that had been in the family for generations but to do by selling it to the Roy empire (their biggest competitor and enemy). She wanted cover - that's why she demanded Shiv be the named successor. And it's clear that it was only cover because Logan turned her down and walked away and she still made the deal, so clearly it wasn't a deal breaker as she said.

From what she said PGM had been losing money for 8 quarters - that's two years of loss and that ain't good. So I think she was going to make the deal no matter what the Roys did at the get-together. 

So Shiv was being used by both sides - the tragic thing is that one of the sides is her father.

[terrymct]

1 hour ago, Pop Tart said:

And she, throughout this whole two day event, made many gaffes and mistakes. As did they all, except for Kendall (who was just mostly awkward, but still kept it together, other then the pooping the bed thing).

Shiv's making the uncomfortable transition from being the power behind the throne to be actual power.   It's easier to be flippant when you're watching events from backstage than it is to be on the stage.

[NeenerNeener]

If this were real life, Logan would be on death's  door again very soon. Nobody bounces back to 100% after being as sick as he was in Season 1, especially not at his age. It's a lot of gradual decline, with lower and lower functioning becoming the new normal, and then a rapid total collapse.

With all the irons he's got in the fire right now if he dies at the end of this season without actually naming a successor the scrambling for position and all the lawsuits will make season 3 must-see-tv, at least for me.  If he stays alive and just keeps jerking his family around for 5 more seasons I'm going to lose interest.

[luckylou]

1 hour ago, Pop Tart said:

And she, throughout this whole two day event, made many gaffes and mistakes. As did they all, except for Kendall (who was just mostly awkward, but still kept it together, other then the pooping the bed thing). And though I enjoyed every squirmy moment of all the interactions, I did think it stretched credibility a bit that the Roy offspring were so incapable of polite social behavior. It also seemed unbelievable to me that they all were meeting for the first time. 

Though they clearly come from different ends of the spectrum in terms of wealth - meaning generations of inherited money vs. nouveau riche - they move in a very small, rarified world of the wealthiest of the wealthy and I just don't believe that they wouldn't have encountered each other in schools, events, charities, etc. 

The Roys; Conner, Kendall, Shiv and Roman may have a mom and dad who are terrible, but I don't believe they wouldn't have gone to the best schools and swum in the "best" circles. So their cluelessness about how to interact at a posh party just didn't ring true to me. The occasional gaffe I could understand and their arrogance creeping out makes sense, but the complete inability to make meaningless chit chat? As I said, a bit hard to believe.

On another note, Jeremey Strong, though he's playing this beaten-down, depressed, shell of a man, just has chemistry with everyone he has a scene with. His interactions with Reya (Rhea?) and his confab with Naomi? So good. Really every moment of every scene he does, he manages to convey so much with the smallest of changes in facial expression or tone of voice.

This cast, pretty much universally is stellar, so I could call them each out for something, but JS just hits me every time.

Thank you.  I love this show, but I too feel that sometimes incidents shown are so exaggerated as to be unbelievable. Boar on the floor, losing a bet and forcing the looser to be human furniture, throwing bottles...to me, these demonstrate a complete lack of confidence in the audience.  It was already clear, before those incidents, that Tom is a bully and Logan is willing to demonstrate his dominance by publicly humiliating even his family and closest business associates, and that those he humiliates are so desperate to retain their positions they will tolerate any embarrassment.

And, like you, I admire Jeremy Strong’s performance on this show.  This is a great cast.  Plus, some of the lines are really memorable.  

Every episode poses some situation that l leaves me wondering...as in this one..why did Kendall shit the bed?  Maybe to remind him...and us...that no matter what success he achieves, he is still hopelessly dependent on drugs/ alcohol?

[BlackberryJam]

I thought Naomi’s talking Nan into a deal was to get both her and Kendall out. By taking the money, Naomi doesn’t have to care about PGM anymore. If Shiv is named successor, Kendall can walk away. It was an escape for both of them. 

The Logan refused so he can keep control and keep Shiv and Kendall under his thumb. Roman wasn’t even invited to that meeting.

I noticed when Kendall was walking from breakfast to the meeting, one of the maids was carrying down the basket of linen. Nice touch.

I think Marcia spent all that time nursing Logan back to health only for him to go back to his old ways. She probably was looking forward to a more relaxed life and now he’s more of a dick than ever. 

Greg, oh sweet Greg, sorry, Gregory.

[cardigirl]

I'm still not sure why Shiv has been so impatient for her father to declare her. Last week she tried desperately to impose herself onto the negotiations with Rhea, yet Ken still seemed more able to control those better than she did, simply by throwing out numbers.  

And this week, whatever happened in London right before the episode started, clearly shook her up enough that she was, again, desperate to have a seat at the table. But she had no clue who all the moving pieces were.  Ken, again, knew who the major player was. 

I'm not a fan of Shiv, mostly because of the way she has been treating Tom, who for the most part, has her back, and cares about being a decent husband to her, at least from what we've been shown, to the point of where he takes a lot of shit from her family. Yes, he wants a seat at the table too, but he has been shown to be caring. She hasn't really. Last week's hug of her brother, was more him asking for the hug, than her giving it to him. 

And totally off topic, but wouldn't it be a hoot if cousin Greg becomes the successor?  Machiavellian indeed!

[RedDelicious]

I love the subtleties like Nan ceremoniously serving the roast with the chef in the background watching her get the praise and the housekeeper giving Kendall a dirty look with the basket of laundry in her hands.  Lots of things going on in the background in this episode, and that is what I enjoy most on re-watch.  I always watch at least twice to see what I missed the first time around.

[RealReality]

31 minutes ago, NeenerNeener said:

If this were real life, Logan would be on death's  door again very soon. Nobody bounces back to 100% after being as sick as he was in Season 1, especially not at his age. It's a lot of gradual decline, with lower and lower functioning becoming the new normal, and then a rapid total collapse.

With all the irons he's got in the fire right now if he dies at the end of this season without actually naming a successor the scrambling for position and all the lawsuits will make season 3 must-see-tv, at least for me.  If he stays alive and just keeps jerking his family around for 5 more seasons I'm going to lose interest.

I'm interested in seeing how Logan's mental decline bears out.  It's so hard to tell which how much of his assholery is normal Logan and how much is because of his cognitive changes.  

And when is the family going to catch in and what are they going to do and what CAN they do at this point in the middle of a proxy battle and the purchase of a giant new entity like PGM?

Kendall tried overthrowing Logan and it blew up in his face and he is no position to do so again.  Shiv may not be as quick to pick up the clues because she hasn't spent as much time around Logan lately.  Roman?  Maybe with gerris help he could do something but that seems like an outside shot.  Conner isn't even in play. 

18 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

I thought Naomi’s talking Nan into a deal was to get both her and Kendall out. By taking the money, Naomi doesn’t have to care about PGM anymore. If Shiv is named successor, Kendall can walk away. It was an escape for both of them. 

The Logan refused so he can keep control and keep Shiv and Kendall under his thumb. Roman wasn’t even invited to that meeting.

I noticed when Kendall was walking from breakfast to the meeting, one of the maids was carrying down the basket of linen. Nice touch.

Interesting take on Naomi's motive.  That would be pretty neat.

That was a nice touch with Kendall and the maid.  She was for sure side eyeing him and he looked ashamed.  

11 minutes ago, cardigirl said:

And totally off topic, but wouldn't it be a hoot if cousin Greg becomes the successor?  Machiavellian indeed!

Who is this Greg you speak of?  I only know of cousin Gregory! 😉

[Princess Sparkle]

20 minutes ago, cardigirl said:

I'm still not sure why Shiv has been so impatient for her father to declare her. Last week she tried desperately to impose herself onto the negotiations with Rhea, yet Ken still seemed more able to control those better than she did, simply by throwing out numbers.  

And this week, whatever happened in London right before the episode started, clearly shook her up enough that she was, again, desperate to have a seat at the table. But she had no clue who all the moving pieces were.  Ken, again, knew who the major player was. 

It interesting that when the pressure of being successor is on each of the Roy children, they fall apart (first Kendall, now Shiv, and even Roman can't execute when he thinks his dad is counting on him), but when they aren't in the hot seat, they thrive.

And I guarantee that comes from Logan's obsessive focus on winning - he never set his children up to truly succeed because he doesn't want them to "beat" him.

19 minutes ago, RedDelicious said:

I love the subtleties like Nan ceremoniously serving the roast with the chef in the background watching her get the praise and the housekeeper giving Kendall a dirty look with the basket of laundry in her hands.  Lots of things going on in the background in this episode, and that is what I enjoy most on re-watch.  I always watch at least twice to see what I missed the first time around.

The part with Nan killed me, because she made such a big show earlier of making sure the chef should take some time off and telling her she worked hard, but when it came down to it, she didn't acknowledge her in front of the whole group. She was putting on a show as much as The Roys were.

[cardigirl]

3 minutes ago, RealReality said:

Who is this Greg you speak of?  I only know of cousin Gregory! 😉

Oh yes, I forgot, he goes by Gregory now! 

22 minutes ago, RedDelicious said:

I love the subtleties like Nan ceremoniously serving the roast with the chef in the background watching her get the praise and the housekeeper giving Kendall a dirty look with the basket of laundry in her hands.  Lots of things going on in the background in this episode, and that is what I enjoy most on re-watch.  I always watch at least twice to see what I missed the first time around.

She also asked the chef to have a drink with them, almost bullying her to comply, which I thought was interesting.

[preeya]

2 hours ago, showme said:

Well, clearly Shiv has lost Logan's confidence in her after that huge gaffe at the dinner table. He'd rather lose the deal than announce her to the world. And frankly, if she is that immature, she is not a good choice for that job to begin with.

Quite frankly, NONE of his offspring are worthy of taking the reins of his multi-billion dollar empire. We are not talking about a Mom & Pop candy store here.

[preeya]

34 minutes ago, cardigirl said:

And totally off topic, but wouldn't it be a hoot if cousin Greg becomes the successor?  Machiavellian indeed!

I had that same thought when he entered at the end of the episode.

[sistermagpie]

12 hours ago, showme said:

Except it didn't, on contrary,  they clearly showed in this episode, Ken saved the day, he got the crucial "yes" vote.

I thought his shitting the bed was a good way of showing that he was still falling apart and nobody really cared. He was following dad's orders by keeping it together but there was no one to care if he personally was sitting in his own shit.

I had missed the maid with the laundry. If it were me (which thank goodness it never has been!) I would have crammed those sheets into my suitcase so nobody would see them (after I rinsed them thoroughly) but I don't even think it was just his depressed state that made Kendall just give them to the maid!

1 hour ago, Princess Sparkle said:

It interesting that when the pressure of being successor is on each of the Roy children, they fall apart (first Kendall, now Shiv, and even Roman can't execute when he thinks his dad is counting on him), but when they aren't in the hot seat, they thrive.

I don't know if I'd say they *thrive* exactly, but it's definitely better when Dad's not focused on you.

Quote

he part with Nan killed me, because she made such a big show earlier of making sure the chef should take some time off and telling her she worked hard, but when it came down to it, she didn't acknowledge her in front of the whole group. She was putting on a show as much as The Roys were.

1 hour ago, cardigirl said:

Oh yes, I forgot, he goes by Gregory now! 

She also asked the chef to have a drink with them, almost bullying her to comply, which I thought was interesting.

I think they were both acts. The cook knows she'll get in trouble if everything isn't done, so the wife making a big show of treating her like "family" is a shallow gesture. If the cook accepts she won't have everything ready for mom to walk in with the roast, but it looks like she's "regular people" because look how she treats the help and invites them to eat with her! Kind of like Connor's version of "regular people."

I like what the show did with the guy getting his second PhD. Movies always use "multiple PhDs" as a shorthand for somebody being really smart as if each PhD is another level of smart, but really that's like a person being in college for 12 years because they keep changing their major and starting over. It's just a weird thing to do. So I loved how this show seemed to really get that--the guy was getting a second degree because he's a rich guy who can just study to amuse himself. He's not an academic going on to a career doing research or whatever.

Didn't have much sympathy for Naomi whining about her life. Maybe if I knew whatever the story was with her not getting back from South Africa in time for her mother's funeral or whatever, but I figured she was probably drowning her sorrows there and it was nobody else's fault she then got a DUI and hurt herself. 

I was also confused that they'd never met these people before--even Tabitha had had a brief affair with one of them. I didn't think they were exactly inept at polite banter, they just couldn't keep the bite out of it.

As great as I find the Gromulus pairing, I'm interested in Tabitha and Roman too. It surprises me it's okay with him when she announces to anybody who cares that they don't have sex--does he like the humiliation of that too? When Gerri ordered him into the bathroom I wondered if she was recreating the dog cage game he liked as a kid, but I guess at this point she still just doesn't want to watch him jerk off. I hope she stays that way.

Quote

Thank you.  I love this show, but I too feel that sometimes incidents shown are so exaggerated as to be unbelievable. Boar on the floor, losing a bet and forcing the looser to be human furniture, throwing bottles...to me, these demonstrate a complete lack of confidence in the audience.  It was already clear, before those incidents, that Tom is a bully and Logan is willing to demonstrate his dominance by publicly humiliating even his family and closest business associates, and that those he humiliates are so desperate to retain their positions they will tolerate any embarrassment.

I disagree. Logan is a cruel man with all the money and power in the world at his disposal. That's exactly what that would look like, imo. He's not going to be subtle, the cruelty is just going to get more and more elaborate. That's his entertainment.

Edited September 9, 2019 by sistermagpie
Typo: dumb =/ = done

[Maire]

This show is so great because it is  so awkward and cringey. I love it even though I had to turn it off and take a breath when Shiv made her dinner announcement.

[Eyes High]

50 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I like what the show did with the guy getting his second PhD. Movies always use "multiple PhDs" as a shorthand for somebody being really smart as if each PhD is another level of smart, but really that's like a person being in college for 12 years because they keep changing their major and starting over. It's just a weird thing to do. So I loved how this show seemed to really get that--the guy was getting a second degree because he's a rich guy who can just study to amuse himself. He's not an academic going on to a career doing research or whatever.

I've met at least one wealthy person who collected graduate degrees the way other people collect art, but it's not at all rare for working professionals to have three or more degrees, such as lawyers (BA, MA/MSc/MBA, JD, etc.) and doctors (BSc, MSc, MD, PhD), etc, and it takes quite a lot of time to get three degrees, even if you fast-track. And while I wouldn't say that education equals intelligence, successfully completing multiple graduate degrees says something about your discipline, motivation and work ethic. PhDs are not for the faint of heart.

Honestly, while all the superficial aspects seemed to be spot on (the house, the decor, the WASP-perfect clothes), the Pierces seemed like a lazy caricature of the sort of monsters the ATN types of the world imagine "elite liberals" to be. There's the Shakespeare quoting and gratuitous shaming over intellectual shortcomings. There's the clueless white guy with a PhD in African studies from Brown. There's the drug-addled, promiscuous, and deeply troubled party girl. There's the hypocritical matriarch chiding the chef she employs who's currently preparing an enormous meal for not taking a break and treating herself. 

...And in the end, despite all their supposed principles and morals, the Pierces were for sale. Connor bought Maxim's good will with an offer of the State Department in his (hopefully theoretical) government. Naomi got over her anger at the Pierces when Kendall pointed out that the money from the sale would free her. And Logan pointed out that the Pierces' virtue had a price.

Quote

As great as I find the Gromulus pairing, I'm interested in Tabitha and Roman too. 

Tabitha to me is such an interesting character, second only to Marcia. It seems as if she has a job (she mentions having a big meeting on Monday in this episode), but I don't know if it was ever stated what that job is. She's friendly with both the old money Pierces and the new money Roys and can navigate effortlessly in both circles, suggesting that she's from money herself. She has slept with a lot of guys (as she told Roman) and at least one woman (Naomi). She coolly tolerates all of Roman's bullshit and even seems amused at his damage. What is her story?

[sistermagpie]

16 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I've met at least one wealthy person who collected graduate degrees the way other people collect art, but it's not at all rare for working professionals to have three or more degrees, such as lawyers (BA, MA/MSc/MBA, JD, etc.) and doctors (BSc, MSc, MD, PhD), etc, and it takes quite a lot of time to get three degrees, even if you fast-track. And while I wouldn't say that education equals intelligence, successfully completing multiple graduate degrees says something about your discipline, motivation and work ethic. PhDs are not for the faint of heart.

Oh yes--I don't mean to dismiss getting even one degree as not requiring work! And I'm sure there's plenty of positions where each one is helpful and they work together. But so often in movies it's just listed as part of a character's biography to say they're supposed to be super smart and impressive (as if the degree is about brilliance rather than effort and time and interest), here it was clearly a guy who got interested in things for the sake of being interested in them and had the time and money to get the degree because he wanted to study it. I thought Shiv's joke about him saving 12 seconds fell pretty flat. I can't remember if he said what his degrees were in--were they at all related to each other?

I mean, you're right the whole affect of people quoting Shakespeare and getting degrees etc. was cliche and a bit cloying (and the low thread count sheets as well!) but I have to admit I appreciate that this guy used his wealth to do something he enjoyed in studying subjects that interested him. That's totally what I would do if I was incredibly rich!

16 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Tabitha to me is such an interesting character, second only to Marcia. It seems as if she has a job (she mentions having a big meeting on Monday in this episode), but I don't know if it was ever stated what that job is. She's friendly with both the old money Pierces and the new money Roys and can navigate effortlessly in both circles, suggesting that she's from money herself. She has slept with a lot of guys (as she told Roman) and at least one woman (Naomi). She coolly tolerates all of Roman's bullshit and even seems amused at his damage. What is her story?

Yes, I can't remember exactly what she said but something like that she was interested in solving him as a puzzle. She doesn't seem to have the kind of vulnerability that Tom or Willa have.

Edited September 9, 2019 by sistermagpie

[BlackberryJam]

It seems to be as if Tabitha has a streak of cruelty in her. She was introduced to the family as one of the ‘provided women’ at Tom’s bachelor party where she gave him a blowie and a snowball. 

She may also have a real job, modeling, design work, acting, but she seems to me to have traveled in the moneyed world for the ‘benefits.’

She’s not necessarily a hooker, but it seems she was all right with transactional sex.

[sistermagpie]

15 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

It seems to be as if Tabitha has a streak of cruelty in her. She was introduced to the family as one of the ‘provided women’ at Tom’s bachelor party where she gave him a blowie and a snowball. 

Was she paid to do that or was she just somebody else at the party where people had random sex with each other? That was my impression of her.

[Caseysgirl]

I’m trying to remember from the first season ;I thought Gerri had told Kendall that they were in trouble financially - I’m guessing I forgot how they avoided that crisis and now have all this money to buy out the Pierces.

[DoubleUTeeEff]

2 hours ago, preeya said:

Quite frankly, NONE of his offspring are worthy of taking the reins of his multi-billion dollar empire. We are not talking about a Mom & Pop candy store here.

I think Kendall would be capable of it if he could kick his drug habit. I think he mostly uses in order to deal with Logan and of course Logan needs him now so he doesn't have the luxury of going to rehab like he desperately needs. Of course, I always forget that he left someone to drown recently, so he would need to deal with that for his mental health as well. If you can even deal with something like that.

I agree that the other three are absolutely are incapable of handling it. Shiv I was on the fence about until this episode. She completely cracked under the pressure. She should be able to bide her time but is just not capable of it. Obviously Logan wants to stay in control for as long as possible. That's just a fact she would have to deal with if she wants to be the eventual successor. But she just can't help wanting to pin it down. How long has it been? She needs to ingratiate herself behind the scenes until she's indispensable and then when Logan's health fails, make her move.

Roman and Conner are not even worth mentioning they are so helpless.

20 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

She’s not necessarily a hooker, but it seems she was all right with transactional sex.

Yes, 3 out of 4 of the kids have very transactional relationships. It's very sad for all of them. Tom/Shiv, Conner and his actual call girl and Roman/Tabitha. To me, Tabitha seems to like having access to the whole rich lifestyle. The parties, outings and people. Connor's girlfriend seems to like the more concrete benefits of money and her play being funded while Tabitha likes the less concrete aspects of what Roman's lifestyle can give her including the connections and relationships with powerful people.

I have to say I kind of like Nan Pierce. I liked when she basically told the Roys that they were awful people and that she's not stupid-she never expected different. I can see why she would turn to them to continue her business. She thinks she's doing something important and wants to stay afloat. I can't help hoping that the whole deal comes crashing down around Logan though. I don't want money to always win.

[luckylou]

13 minutes ago, Caseysgirl said:

I’m trying to remember from the first season ;I thought Gerri had told Kendall that they were in trouble financially - I’m guessing I forgot how they avoided that crisis and now have all this money to buy out the Pierces.

I believe the problem in Season One was that Logan had borrowed a considerable amount of money that would fall due if the stock fell below a certain amount, a situation likely to happen when Logan had his stroke. So Kendall convinced his “friend” to bail them out by investing in  Waystar.  Turns out arch enemy Sandy is secretly behind the loan, setting the stage for Kendall’s attempted takeover of the company later in the season.

Edited September 9, 2019 by luckylou

[BlackberryJam]

It was my understanding that the women, in particular, at the club for Tom’s party were ‘available.’ Now what that meant for any of the given women, who knows, but Tabitha is definitely using Roman for the access, and she doesn’t even have to sleep with him. That doesn’t explain why she’s alienating him though. I don’t think she ‘needs’ the Roy access/money as much as she enjoys the lifestyle. It opens doors for her. I suspect she’s got some tapes of Roman saying things so that if he tries to burn her, she’ll fire back. She’s not at all stupid. I’m just not sure where her ambition lies. 

Maybe she’s working for Stewy or Sandy Furness? Who knows.

All of these characters have so many layers.

I was surprised at Shiv’s inability to rub elbows and smile. She works in politics; this should be second nature to her. At one point talking to Tom she did say she knew she was screwing up and didn’t know why. 

I do wonder if when they are outside the presence of each other and Logan if the Roy children can behave normally, but when Logan is in the room, they revert back to sniping and backstabbing. 

The loan payment which was the big deal in S1, well, Stewy and Sandy bailed them out, but that’s what this proxy vote is about, right? It’s not well-explained by the point seems to be that the Roys took money from outside sources who now what control to match their investment. Logan is trying to prove he is still able to head the company.

[teddysmom]

3 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Greg, oh sweet Greg, sorry, Gregory.

This reminded me of Andy Bernard on The Office when he returned from anger management classes and wanted everyone to call him "Drew". 

Jim was like "yeah I'm not doing that". 

Two mysteries this week: what happened to Shiv in London, and why is Greg now Gregory? 

[Eyes High]

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Oh yes--I don't mean to dismiss getting even one degree as not requiring work! And I'm sure there's plenty of positions where each one is helpful and they work together. But so often in movies it's just listed as part of a character's biography to say they're supposed to be super smart and impressive (as if the degree is about brilliance rather than effort and time and interest)

Hee, Aaron Sorkin Syndrome. 

2 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

It seems to be as if Tabitha has a streak of cruelty in her. She was introduced to the family as one of the ‘provided women’ at Tom’s bachelor party where she gave him a blowie and a snowball. 

She may also have a real job, modeling, design work, acting, but she seems to me to have traveled in the moneyed world for the ‘benefits.’

She’s not necessarily a hooker, but it seems she was all right with transactional sex.

I don't get the sense that she relies on the relationship the way Tom and Willa rely on their respective partners and the influence their partners provide them. Tabitha coolly shrugged off Roman's marriage proposal in S1, not something she would have done if she was at all reliant on him or addicted to the perks their relationship affords. Tom, Greg and Willa are all anxious to please the Roys, to the point of obsequiousness. I don’t get the sense that Tabitha needs the Roys’ good will in the way that they do.

1 hour ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

I agree that the other three are absolutely are incapable of handling it. Shiv I was on the fence about until this episode. She completely cracked under the pressure. She should be able to bide her time but is just not capable of it.

Shiv's problem is that she wants the job too much. She knows that it makes her look desperate and insecure, but she can't help herself. She looked cunning and savvy when she was tossing off suggestions in 2x01 about the company. It's only now that she's truly invested that she is making mistakes left and right (the negotiation with Rhea, the flatfooted jokes and attempts to force Logan's hand in 2x05). To be fair, Kendall had the same problem in S1: his insecurity and desperation led him to trip up. Look at how ruthlessly effective Kendall is in S2 now that he has given up all hope of inheriting the family business.

Quote

Yes, 3 out of 4 of the kids have very transactional relationships. It's very sad for all of them. Tom/Shiv, Conner and his actual call girl and Roman/Tabitha. To me, Tabitha seems to like having access to the whole rich lifestyle. The parties, outings and people. Connor's girlfriend seems to like the more concrete benefits of money and her play being funded while Tabitha likes the less concrete aspects of what Roman's lifestyle can give her including the connections and relationships with powerful people.

Doesn't it seem likely that Tabitha had those connections and relationships independent of Roman and the Roys, though? She was the one who knew Naomi, not Roman. She certainly doesn't act as if Roman is providing her anything in the way of material comforts she couldn't get elsewhere, as opposed to Willa (her plays) or Tom (the perks Tom crows about to Greg).

1 hour ago, BlackberryJam said:

I was surprised at Shiv’s inability to rub elbows and smile. She works in politics; this should be second nature to her. At one point talking to Tom she did say she knew she was screwing up and didn’t know why. 

I think it's because she's desperate to succeed and insecure about getting the job. She can feel it slipping away every time Logan says something dismissive or refuses to acknowledge her, so it makes her hold on tighter (and paradoxically makes her position that much more precarious). If she didn't care about the deal or her success, I'm sure she'd be as coolly confident as she has been for most of the show. Wanting the job too much is her downfall, as it was Kendall's, I think. Kendall, too, was sick of being jerked around by Logan and was impatient about the lack of acknowledgment. 

Quote

Two mysteries this week: what happened to Shiv in London, and why is Greg now Gregory? 

I assume Greg insisting on being called "Gregory" is Greg's attempt to be taken more seriously. It's hard for me to see any outcome other than Tom and the others doubling down on "Greg" to be dicks, though. Don't ever let people who bully you know that you care deeply about anything.

Edited September 9, 2019 by Eyes High

[rue721]

19 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Don't ever let people who bully you know that you care deeply about anything.

If only Shiv had followed that advice when it came to Logan!

Edited September 9, 2019 by rue721

[Eyes High]

40 minutes ago, rue721 said:

If only Shiv had followed that advice when it came to Logan!

Yup. Logan has Shiv insecure, grasping for his approval, desperate for his acknowledgment, painfully aware of the precariousness of her position, and completely under his thumb. In other words, right where he wants her.

Shiv knows very well that there’s a good chance that Logan is toying with her, but she can’t walk away because she does want the company and she doesn’t want to blow the opportunity because she secondguessed Logan. It would be horribly sad and tragic if Shiv weren’t an awful person.

The saddest line in the episode was when Connor, hearing Logan magnanimously talk to the Pierces, mournfully said "I like this dad. Why couldn't this dad be Dad?" Ouch.

Edited September 9, 2019 by Eyes High

[Princess Sparkle]

31 minutes ago, teddysmom said:

Two mysteries this week: what happened to Shiv in London, and why is Greg now Gregory? 

"Gregory" killed me and I bet now that he got a better job and more money (per Tom last week), he's trying to go by a more formal name to seem more serious. 

[TimWil]

4 hours ago, RedDelicious said:

I love the subtleties like Nan ceremoniously serving the roast with the chef in the background watching her get the praise and the housekeeper giving Kendall a dirty look with the basket of laundry in her hands.  Lots of things going on in the background in this episode, and that is what I enjoy most on re-watch.  I always watch at least twice to see what I missed the first time around.

Sorry, I know this has already been mentioned but I also enjoyed the moment when chef/cook/head housekeeper Rosa was asked by Nan to stay for a drink and she said “No, no, I have to get dinner going” or something like that. And she goes away and Nan says “Poor Rosa, she never treats herself.” I somehow doubt Richard (the head of house) would ever be invited to enjoy a drink in the Roy household with the upstairs gang and Nan is aware of this.

I love the casting of Naomi. She’s attractive but not strikingly beautiful in a normal TV series way. She looks damaged. And God knows Naomi is damaged.

Edited September 9, 2019 by TimWil

[showme]

5 minutes ago, TimWil said:

I love the casting of Naomi. She’s attractive but not strikingly beautiful in a normal TV series way. She looks damaged. And God knows Naomi is damaged.

She is damaged, sure, but she is a billionaire, so she doesn't need my sympathy, and I wouldn't give her any.