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BlackberryJam

S02.E05: Tern Haven

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58 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Doesn't it seem likely that Tabitha had those connections and relationships independent of Roman and the Roys, though? She was the one who knew Naomi, not Roman. She certainly doesn't act as if Roman is providing her anything in the way of material comforts she couldn't get elsewhere, as opposed to Willa (her plays) or Tom (the perks Tom crows about to Greg).

Yes, but I think being in a relationship with Roman cements her into the whole scene more than just being friends with someone would. I'm totally agreed that she doesn't seem to be in it for the material comforts.

4 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Didn't have much sympathy for Naomi whining about her life. Maybe if I knew whatever the story was with her not getting back from South Africa in time for her mother's funeral or whatever, but I figured she was probably drowning her sorrows there and it was nobody else's fault she then got a DUI and hurt herself. 

I think a lot of what she was complaining about is that the Roy-owned tabloids posted her whole story for public consumption and really mined and sensationalized her ordeal. Part of it sounded like it was not her fault that she couldn't make it to her mother's funeral but the tabloids made her out to be a cold hearted bitch. Part of it was her own fault for the drug use and getting herself hurt but not everyone who messes up in that way has to deal with the public fallout. That's got to make things harder for anyone to. So yes, she's rich and has a certain amount of fame but maybe she should be allowed some privacy or at least not be a subject of overly judgmental tabloid fodder.

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3 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

It seems to be as if Tabitha has a streak of cruelty in her. She was introduced to the family as one of the ‘provided women’ at Tom’s bachelor party where she gave him a blowie and a snowball. 

She’s not necessarily a hooker, but it seems she was all right with transactional sex.

The weird thing is that she seems pretty salty about not having to have sex.  It would seem like an ideal situation for a woman like Tabitha if the relationship was purely transactional.  I betcha Willa would change places in a minute.  

Maybe she is a socialite from a family who fell on hard times.

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18 hours ago, rue721 said:

Why was Marcia so salty the whole time? What does she even want right now that she's not getting?

I was curious about this too.  When Logan was sick, she seemed to be his biggest champion/supporter/ally.  This episode, she seemed to barely tolerate Logan and seemed to actively be working against his deal (not that his own children were any better). Her complete 180 in this episode seemed to come out of the blue.  I suppose it is possible she no longer feels as needed or important now that Logan's health has improved.  And the character really seems to have been sidelined for most of this season.  I, for one, find her kind of fascinating and would love to get more of her back story.  Didn't she have a child (children?) of her own that we saw briefly in S1?   

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I loved Roman openly admitting at the breakfast what he had spent the night before doing in Gerri's bathroom.  I couldn't quite tell if the other people didn't believe him or just didn't think it was that out of character for him.  Roman, for all of his, um, issues, might be my favorite character.  Well, after Tom.  And Greg, uh Gregory.  And Gerri.  And the woman with the unusual speech cadence who hates Tom.  Heck, I like all of them, even though I would hate to be around any of them in real life.   

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11 minutes ago, Bulldog said:

even though I would hate to be around any of them in real life.   

Me too

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26 minutes ago, Bulldog said:

I was curious about this too.  When Logan was sick, she seemed to be his biggest champion/supporter/ally.  This episode, she seemed to barely tolerate Logan and seemed to actively be working against his deal (not that his own children were any better). Her complete 180 in this episode seemed to come out of the blue.  I suppose it is possible she no longer feels as needed or important now that Logan's health has improved.  And the character really seems to have been sidelined for most of this season.  I, for one, find her kind of fascinating and would love to get more of her back story.  Didn't she have a child (children?) of her own that we saw briefly in S1?   

Logan went from being totally dependent on her and relying on her as a confidant to using her as someone to turn off the Alexa.  My feelings might be a little hurt if I enjoyed being part of the inner circle.

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Logan gave them marching orders but most of them couldn't contain themselves, even Shiv.

I don't know if anyone heard Roman's snarky comments but then he had to defend himself about the book and then Tabitha threw him under the bus about Professor Can't Fuck.

Well Kendall kind of controlled himself, until he went to sleep.  He did flip Naomi's vote and the look they gave each other as he left may hint at a future for them, though she carries a grudge against the Roys.  But who knew Kendall could polidick?

Of course there were too many political and cultural differences between the Roys and the Pierces for them to play nice, just for a weekend.  Yet in the end, money talked.

Forget about management training for Roman.  He needs sex therapy for his dysfunction.

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20 hours ago, rue721 said:

Why was Marcia so salty the whole time? What does she even want right now that she's not getting?

Well for one, imported wines as Logan only stocks domestic, apparently.

Maybe she learned about Logan's promise to Shiv or something, didn't like losing out to one of Logan's children.

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I am not sure what is going on with Roman and Gerri, but it seems to be escalating from weird insult phone sex, to through a door in person jerking off. I love how Roman just casually through out the fact that he jerked off all over hr bathroom floor over breakfast, and she also casually blew it off as him being a gross idiot. I think that people thought he was just being Roman and didnt take it seriously, but you know that shit will hit the fan when this...whatever this is...comes out into the open. 

Logan constantly saying how Gerri could/would never take over the company, and her annoyed looks whenever he says that, makes me think that she is the one who is going to end up making the big play. Of course, anyone who wants the keys to the kingdom will probably have to pry them from Logan's cold dead hands, probably literally!

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17 minutes ago, scrb said:

Well Kendall kind of controlled himself, until he went to sleep.  He did flip Naomi's vote and the look they gave each other as he left may hint at a future for them, though she carries a grudge against the Roys.  But who knew Kendall could polidick?

I hope not, considering their addictions apparently feed on each other.

9 minutes ago, scrb said:

Well for one, imported wines as Logan only stocks domestic, apparently.

Maybe she learned about Logan's promise to Shiv or something, didn't like losing out to one of Logan's children.

I think that Marcia has a problem with Shiv specifically. Remember how she lit into her at the wedding?

What's kind of sad is that Shiv doesn't seem to have a problem with Marcia at all. I actually get the feeling that she'd like it if Marcia treated/saw her as more of a daughter.

I wonder if what happened with Shiv in London had to do with her mom? Not that likely, I guess, but her mother is the only English character on this show so far hahaha

You guys are right, it's hard to know what Tabitha's angle is.

Edited by rue721
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3 hours ago, TimWil said:

I love the casting of Naomi. She’s attractive but not strikingly beautiful in a normal TV series way. She looks damaged. And God knows Naomi is damaged.

Me too! My sister commented how they had the mid-Atlantic rich rehab girl look nailed.

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18 hours ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

Yes, but I think being in a relationship with Roman cements her into the whole scene more than just being friends with someone would. I'm totally agreed that she doesn't seem to be in it for the material comforts.

I think a lot of what she was complaining about is that the Roy-owned tabloids posted her whole story for public consumption and really mined and sensationalized her ordeal. Part of it sounded like it was not her fault that she couldn't make it to her mother's funeral but the tabloids made her out to be a cold hearted bitch. Part of it was her own fault for the drug use and getting herself hurt but not everyone who messes up in that way has to deal with the public fallout. That's got to make things harder for anyone to. So yes, she's rich and has a certain amount of fame but maybe she should be allowed some privacy or at least not be a subject of overly judgmental tabloid fodder.

Oh yeah, I got that's what she was complaining about it and yes, absolutely, the tabloids were cruel and I'd hate to have people hounding me that way. We don't know why she couldn't get to the funeral, though it seems like her car accident was related to her addiction so presumably she wasn't just stuck in an airport because of fog. But I still didn't feel much sympathy for her.

17 hours ago, Bulldog said:

I was curious about this too.  When Logan was sick, she seemed to be his biggest champion/supporter/ally.  This episode, she seemed to barely tolerate Logan and seemed to actively be working against his deal (not that his own children were any better). Her complete 180 in this episode seemed to come out of the blue.  I suppose it is possible she no longer feels as needed or important now that Logan's health has improved.  And the character really seems to have been sidelined for most of this season.  I, for one, find her kind of fascinating and would love to get more of her back story.  Didn't she have a child (children?) of her own that we saw briefly in S1?   

Yes, I think his name is Amir. He definitely still exists, but he doesn't seem to mix with the family much, wise man. There's got to be something coming with Marcia after this ep. The Alexa moment seemed important to me too.

16 hours ago, scrb said:

Logan gave them marching orders but most of them couldn't contain themselves, even Shiv.

Well Kendall kind of controlled himself, until he went to sleep.  He did flip Naomi's vote and the look they gave each other as he left may hint at a future for them, though she carries a grudge against the Roys.  But who knew Kendall could polidick?

But really, them not listening to him wasn't bad. If Kendall had stayed sober he might not have gotten Naomi on board and maybe Shiv's putting herself forward pushed things along too.

To address a comment above about which could run the company I think both Kendall and Shiv are basically competent business people or could be, but I don't think Kendall is any better for it than Shiv is. He knows business fine, but his personality doesn't make him much more suited to that hot seat.

Edited by sistermagpie · Reason: ETA: Accidentally said Kendall *was* suited for the hot seat when I meant the opposite.
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3 hours ago, rue721 said:

I think that Marcia has a problem with Shiv specifically. Remember how she lit into her at the wedding?

What's kind of sad is that Shiv doesn't seem to have a problem with Marcia at all. I actually get the feeling that she'd like it if Marcia treated/saw her as more of a daughter.

Shiv actually had Marcia’s past history investigated last season, didn’t she? So I can see why things are not copacetic between them.

Yes, Marcia has a son named Amir. He was on the Thanksgiving episode last season. He works for the Roy empire in Frankfurt, Germany.

Edited by TimWil
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7 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Was she paid to do that or was she just somebody else at the party where people had random sex with each other? That was my impression of her.

That was my impression too, that she was just another attendee. Like the woman from the startup Kendall was interested in. Plus, most of the Roys disapprove of Connor's relationship with Willa because she's an escort, we haven't seen anything like that with Tabitha. I think she's a part of the same social circle. Who knows why she's still interested in Roman though.

I think Amir was at Shiv's wedding too though i don't remember him saying much. He seems to not be part of the inner circle despite being Marcia's son & working for the company.

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10 hours ago, Princess Sparkle said:

It interesting that when the pressure of being successor is on each of the Roy children, they fall apart (first Kendall, now Shiv, and even Roman can't execute when he thinks his dad is counting on him), but when they aren't in the hot seat, they thrive.

Kendall has a drug problem and is shoplifting. He is not thriving. I think it is the pressure of being Logan Roy’s child that gets to all of them because he is a mean, scary SOB.

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Tabitha comes across to me as a person who is going to be into something as long as it is fun and entertaining. I imagine her going from situation to situation, seeing them as adventures, things to try out, until she gets bored and then she floats on to the next thing. Maybe she needles Roman a bit as part of the fun and because there are no real stakes for her. 

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25 minutes ago, raeb23 said:

I think Amir was at Shiv's wedding too though i don't remember him saying much. He seems to not be part of the inner circle despite being Marcia's son & working for the company.

Yup, Amir was the person who saw Kendall all wet when he was coming back from the pond after the accident.

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4 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Oh yeah, I got that's what she was complaining about it and yes, absolutely, the tabloids were cruel and I'd hate to have people hounding me that way. We don't know why she couldn't get to the funeral, though it seems like her car accident was related to her addiction so presumably she wasn't just stuck in an airport because of fog. But I still didn't feel much sympathy for her.

Yes, I think his name is Amir. He definitely still exists, but he doesn't seem to mix with the family much, wise man. There's got to be something coming with Marcia after this ep. The Alexa moment seemed important to me too.

To address a comment above about which could run the company I think both Kendall and Shiv are basically competent business people or could be, but I don't think Kendall is any better for it than Shiv is. He knows business fine, but his personality makes him much more suited to that hot seat.

I think someone like shiv would be better for me....the consumer because our ideals are in line. 

BUT, for Logan....I think Kendall is the better pick.  Kendall is competent and can be controlled.  He doesn't mind getting his hands dirty and maybe he enjoys it.  He would continue Logan's legacy of not particularly having any overarching journalistic ideals but pretty much ONLY considering the bottom line.  

It also is starting to look like shiv can crack pretty hard under pressure.  This was something fairly small and she kinda went sideways.  With the relentless pressure in the position I don't know if she would crack harder or more often. 

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I just love this show. It did stretch credibility a bit that these well educated rich Roy’s seemed completely unable to work a room. Maybe they are just used to be being the richest in the room so they don’t have to maneuver good graces, that was the only explanation I can come up with. Roman in particular just seems like a cartoon at times the way he blurts these awful things out and no one calls hm on it, is he supposed to be on the spectrum because otherwise I don’t get it. Kendall is my favorite, he’s so broken in a quiet way and the actor really sells the subtle ness of someone depressed and drowning in their own world. 

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11 hours ago, RealReality said:

 It also is starting to look like shiv can crack pretty hard under pressure.  This was something fairly small and she kinda went sideways.  With the relentless pressure in the position I don't know if she would crack harder or more often. 

It's really interesting to see these otherwise confident, self-assured Roy children, accustomed to being given whatever they want and accustomed to getting things with a minimum of effort, absolutely melt down when there is something they desperately want that they can't have the exact instant that they want it. They're all toddlers, and Shiv is no different. She was thrilled to be asked to be the heir, but she insists on being named as soon as possible (even trying to force Logan's hand when she gets impatient), she doesn't want to put in any actual work to be worthy of the gig, despite having no business experience whatsoever, and she wants to succeed immediately (balking at Logan's three year training schedule). 

5 hours ago, sadie said:

I just love this show. It did stretch credibility a bit that these well educated rich Roy’s seemed completely unable to work a room. Maybe they are just used to be being the richest in the room so they don’t have to maneuver good graces, that was the only explanation I can come up with.

I think the idea is that part of the Roys' expression of power is that they don't have to care about being charming, polite, being kind, being well-read, or being cultured. Their gleeful crudeness, rudeness and ignorance (of literature, art, languages, etc.) are their own kind of power move. The point of "fuck you money" is to be able to say "Fuck you" to standards of common decency and knowledge. And when you've spent your whole life not needing to care about being polite or about knowing literature and art, you can't exactly switch gears after a single Logan rant. And of course Logan seems to be an anti-intellectual type (didn't he think that Plato was one of the Marx brothers?), so it's not as if the Roys ever had a father who modeled the correct behaviours, either. Logan generally takes pride in his ignorance, since he succeeded in spite of not being up on his Plato or his Shakespeare (and since all the Pierces' learning yielded to Logan's cold, hard cash), but it does seem like he hates to be reminded that he's lacking in that area (his angry response when Frank  attempted to explain a Coriolanus reference to him, for example).

With the Pierces, they have a different expression of power. Their power move involves shaming others for their ignorance and flaunting their superior knowledge and refinement: literary references thrown in, translating Latin, Shakespeare quotes, casually asking someone you strongly suspect hasn't picked up a book in years what they like to read, etc. And really, while being less openly distasteful, making someone squirm about not reading books is in its way just as rude and nasty as making fun of someone pursuing impractical PhDs.

Edited by Eyes High
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11 hours ago, RealReality said:

BUT, for Logan....I think Kendall is the better pick.  Kendall is competent and can be controlled.  He doesn't mind getting his hands dirty and maybe he enjoys it.  He would continue Logan's legacy of not particularly having any overarching journalistic ideals but pretty much ONLY considering the bottom line.  

Yeah, that's really the thing, isn't it? What is one looking for in an heir? For some it's someone who'd be good for the company, keep it profitable. Be less evil. Be more modern. But none of that has anything to do with what Logan might want. If he was looking for those things why would he be looking to the kids at all? When you're picking between the four of them you've already lowered your standards. 

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

I think the idea is that part of the Roys' expression of power is that they don't have to care about being charming, polite, being kind, being well-read, or being cultured. Their gleeful crudeness, rudeness and ignorance (of literature, art, languages, etc.) are their own kind of power move. The point of "fuck you money" is to be able to say "Fuck you" to standards of common decency and knowledge. And when you've spent your whole life not needing to care about being polite or about knowing literature and art, you can't exactly switch gears after a single Logan rant. And of course Logan seems to be an anti-intellectual type (didn't he think that Plato was one of the Marx brothers?), so it's not as if the Roys ever had a father who modeled the correct behaviours, either.

With the Pierces, they have a different expression of power. Their power move involves shaming others for their ignorance and flaunting their superior knowledge and refinement: literary references thrown in, translating Latin, Shakespeare quotes, etc. And really, while being less openly distasteful, making someone squirm about not reading books is in its way just as rude and nasty as making fun of someone pursuing impractical PhDs.

Absolutely. While some of their behavior was unlikely, imo, the Roys would never have been able to compete with the Pierces on their own terms. Makes much more sense to walk in making fun of their pretensions because if you don't value those things you can't be shamed for not having them. Likewise it's not like the Roys could have pulled their usual shaming on the Pierces about their low thread count sheets because that was part of their own power move.

The Roys trying to be charming etc. makes sense, but it makes sense in a different scenario where they're trying to curry favor with these people and nobody was trying to curry favor with anybody here, they were trying to dominate or not be dominated. In a different show this would happen under a veneer of polite banter where people were keeping their knives hidden but that's never been how the Roys rolled so it would have been like them choosing the Pierce's weapons for a duel, weapons they're not really familiar with themselves. 

And it seems like in a lot of cases it worked well. Shiv's insult about Wikipedia was an issue because the guy wasn't insulting her first, but Tom's line about paying for stuff by telling people he was really concerned about the environment, imo, hit just the right note. It was funny, it wasn't too hostile and yet it defended the Roy's pov by puncturing the whole point of Queen Nan's lecture--and it was coming from Tom who everyone knew had little power, so he was punching up. Again, there, I think Shiv's jumping in to insult Tom over it was a screw up on her part. 

Really, probably the thing that made the Roys look the worst was the way they were so obviously against each other. The Pierces probably have plenty of their own conflicts, but they don't seem to have that central backstabbing directive that the Roys have. At the dinner we had Tabitha taking a shot at Roman, Shiv taking a shot at Tom, Marcia taking a shot at Logan. And then Shiv's announcement that obviously had no support from her family.

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16 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Yeah, that's really the thing, isn't it? What is one looking for in an heir? For some it's someone who'd be good for the company, keep it profitable. Be less evil. Be more modern. But none of that has anything to do with what Logan might want. If he was looking for those things why would he be looking to the kids at all? When you're picking between the four of them you've already lowered your standards. 

Absolutely. While some of their behavior was unlikely, imo, the Roys would never have been able to compete with the Pierces on their own terms. Makes much more sense to walk in making fun of their pretensions because if you don't value those things you can't be shamed for not having them. Likewise it's not like the Roys could have pulled their usual shaming on the Pierces about their low thread count sheets because that was part of their own power move.

The Roys trying to be charming etc. makes sense, but it makes sense in a different scenario where they're trying to curry favor with these people and nobody was trying to curry favor with anybody here, they were trying to dominate or not be dominated. In a different show this would happen under a veneer of polite banter where people were keeping their knives hidden but that's never been how the Roys rolled so it would have been like them choosing the Pierce's weapons for a duel, weapons they're not really familiar with themselves. 

And it seems like in a lot of cases it worked well. Shiv's insult about Wikipedia was an issue because the guy wasn't insulting her first, but Tom's line about paying for stuff by telling people he was really concerned about the environment, imo, hit just the right note. It was funny, it wasn't too hostile and yet it defended the Roy's pov by puncturing the whole point of Queen Nan's lecture--and it was coming from Tom who everyone knew had little power, so he was punching up. Again, there, I think Shiv's jumping in to insult Tom over it was a screw up on her part. 

I think the Pierces knew exactly what sort of people the Roys were. I have to think part or maybe all of the motivation behind the weekend invite was to take gratuitous potshots at the family they despised under a veneer of politeness, in a context where the Roys were courting their approval and unable to fight back. Nan sneered at Logan being a "greedyguts" ("Teasing!") and preened about the Pierces' superior values and noble media empire. ATN and Tom were skewered at the dinner table. Naomi ranted at Kendall over the Roys' tabloids' coverage of her. Maxim snarked on Connor being the "Don Quixote of Iowa." And of course Mark and Marnie called out Roman over his lack of reading. I suspect that Nan and the other Pierces (apart from Naomi) had already made up her mind about accepting the Roys' money, but that they wanted a chance to make them suffer a certain amount of humiliation (if not "Boar on the Floor"-level humiliation) for it.

Edited by Eyes High
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2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

With the Pierces, they have a different expression of power. Their power move involves shaming others for their ignorance and flaunting their superior knowledge and refinement: literary references thrown in, translating Latin, Shakespeare quotes, casually asking someone you strongly suspect hasn't picked up a book in years what they like to read, etc. And really, while being less openly distasteful, making someone squirm about not reading books is in its way just as rude and nasty as making fun of someone pursuing impractical PhDs.

I second this point.  The Pierces are quite as terrible as the Roys.  Who ever heard of quoting Shakespeare instead of saying grace.  No one would have expected the family to begin a meal with a blessing in the first place.  And to take out a phone and check on a book title?  Both families are equally insufferable.  And, when they break down and take the money, we see their moral superiority evaporate.

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16 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I think the Pierces knew exactly what sort of people the Roys were. I have to think part or maybe all of the motivation behind the weekend invite was to take gratuitous potshots at the family they despised under a veneer of politeness, in a context where the Roys were courting their approval and unable to fight back. Nan sneered at Logan being a "greedyguts" ("Teasing!") and preened about the Pierces' superior values and noble media empire. ATN and Tom were skewered at the dinner table. Naomi ranted at Kendall over the Roys' tabloids' coverage of her. Maxim snarked on Connor being the "Don Quixote of Iowa." And of course Mark and Marnie called out Roman over his lack of reading. I suspect that Nan and the other Pierces (apart from Naomi) had already made up her mind about accepting the Roys' money, but that they wanted a chance to make them suffer a certain amount of humiliation (if not "Boar on the Floor"-level humiliation) for it.

Yup, perfect examples of the Pierce doing their power thing. But the thing is, a lot of that stuff wasn't super humiliating to the Roys because none of them were aspiring to be Pierces. They didn't care that their TV station didn't have higher values, they just had to suffer through a speech about it.

That's why it stood out the few times somebody did try to step out of their lane, like Roman's ill-advised attempt to rec a book that got jumped on by Shiv even before Marnie called his bluff by googling. And of course Connor set himself up to look ignorant in front of anybody with government experience or even experience following the news by running for president. Tom even knew before hand he was going to be thrown under the bus by the rest of the Roys.

Oh, and Logan had his bad moment when his wife sided with the Roys over the wine.

The Roys all went in there expecting they'd have to eat some shit, but that was because they wanted something from the Pierces' rather than feeling shamed by them as people most of the time. Most of the time--but not always. The Pierces did get some hits in, but so did the Roys.

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36 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

The Pierces did get some hits in, but so did the Roys.

Eh. Suggesting that there's no reason to get a PhD because Wikipedia exists is so ignorant as to be a pretty spectacular self-own. Not the first glibly idiotic thing Shiv has said in this show, of course.

Quote

I second this point.  The Pierces are quite as terrible as the Roys.

I'd give the Pierces the edge, frankly, since the Roys' celebration of their own ignorance is that appalling. If I have to choose between the people who value knowledge over the people who profess not to care about it (although Logan seems to care a lot when people point out how ignorant he is), I'll take the knowledge seekers every time.

Quote

Who ever heard of quoting Shakespeare instead of saying grace.

I half-expected that scene to turn into the Pierces forcing everyone to recite their favourite Shakespeare passage by passing the ladle around, which would have been a wonderfully cruel, Logan-worthy exercise.

Personally, I doubt whether the Shakespeare grace wasn't just a one-off thing done to mock the Roys more, particularly since the passage Naomi chose also seems like a choice jab at the Roys and everything they stand for: "The purest treasure mortal times afford is spotless reputation; that away. Men are gilded loam or painted clay. Mine honor is my life; both grow in one. Take honor from me, and my life is done.”

And while we're talking about the Pierces, how absolutely perfect were their names?

"Pierce," of course, for the verb (and the Pierces sure skewered the Roys, although of course the Roys--where "Roy" comes from "roi," the French word for "king"--came out on top).

"Nan" for the matriarch (a charming, folksy, motherly nickname).

"Maxim" (another word for a statement expressing a rule of conduct) for the self-righteous Brookings Institution guy lecturing Connor.

I think of "Marnie" and "Naomi" as glamorous rich girl names. "Mark" and "Peter" who round out the clan have more common names.

Edited by Eyes High
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2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

ATN and Tom were skewered at the dinner table.

But Tom took it. He and Marsha were the only ones of the Roy clan (the only non-bio-Roys) who didn't embarrass themselves at dinner. Tom did exactly as Logan had instructed.

Though Kendall's after-dinner antics paid off, he didn't behave himself. His drug and alcohol party could have resulted in serious damage to that helicopter or also the two of them.

I think it's normal when someone recommends a book to look it up on a phone in case one wants to add it to their reading list. Plus, Roman couldn't remember the author, so it could be helpful. Whether the Pierce did it for that reason, maybe not, but it's not out of range of normal behavior.

I thought the Shakespeare-instead-of-grace highlighted that though the Pierces seemed WASPish (or WASU, as Nan said they were Unitarian), they were in fact atheist. Maybe a stereotype of the godless left contrasting to the stereotype of the moral majority right?

Anyone think that Gregory had been sent on some errand by Logan to help seal the deal? Normally I wouldn't think so, as the show would have shown us. But it seemed strange that he showed up at the end as though he were expected by Logan.

I want to know Tom's prior business experience. When he's with Greg(ory), he's mean and bullying and Greg(ory) seems to have more business insight, but in scenes with Shiv, Tom is quite savvy.

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4 hours ago, smartymarty said:

But Tom took it. He and Marsha were the only ones of the Roy clan (the only non-bio-Roys) who didn't embarrass themselves at dinner. Tom did exactly as Logan had instructed.

Sure, but the Pierces were practically licking their chops at the opportunity to attack the "white nationalist elephant" in the room.

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Though Kendall's after-dinner antics paid off, he didn't behave himself.

Was anyone wondering whether Kendall's seduction of Naomi was a purely calculated attempt to get her to change her vote from "No" to "Yes"? Because I was certainly wondering that; Kendall feigned warm feelings with the Vaulter people as part of a strategy, after all.

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I thought the Shakespeare-instead-of-grace highlighted that though the Pierces seemed WASPish (or WASU, as Nan said they were Unitarian), they were in fact atheist. Maybe a stereotype of the godless left contrasting to the stereotype of the moral majority right?

I don't know how much contrast there is to be had there between the Pierces and the Roys in the religion department: the only gods the Roys worship are money and power. I agree that the Pierces were supposed to be old money WASP stereotypes, and the aggressively frugal aesthetic was dead on. New money's display of wealth is the newest, most expensive and most luxurious cars, clothing, bedding, etc. Old money's display of wealth is using the same cheap sheets for 30 years, driving the same Volvo for 30 years, and wearing the same sweater your grandfather wore, holes and all. I particularly appreciated Nan Pierce's Katharine Hepburn vibe.

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I want to know Tom's prior business experience. When he's with Greg(ory), he's mean and bullying and Greg(ory) seems to have more business insight, but in scenes with Shiv, Tom is quite savvy.

One of the issues I have with this show is that they can't seem to decide whether certain characters are frighteningly shrewd or incredibly dumb. Tom has moments where he's genuinely stupid (apparently believing he had a shot at running the Roy empire) and other moments where he shows startling insight (presciently warning Shiv that her father could just be using her and would do to her what he did to Kendall). Greg was canny enough to preserve copies of incriminating documents but enough of a fool to think it was a good idea to meet with a journalist doing a biography on Logan Roy. Roman and the other Roy siblings are sufficiently witty and have enough good ideas between them to suggest they have some intellectual capacity, but they've all done sufficiently boneheaded things that one tends to agree with Logan when he calls them morons.

Another issue I have is that with Logan, the writers have hinted that he's an anti-intellectual who revels in his literary ignorance (Frank feeling the need to explain his Coriolanus reference, PGM mocking his belief that Plato was a Marx brother, etc.), but in S2 he gives Frank a watch with a line from a Tennyson poem inscribed. Is his ignorance for show, a display for his ATN anti-elite audience? Or is it inconsistency on the part of the writers?

Second-last big question: what happened in London? At the beginning of the episode, Shiv was returning from a trip to London, and we never learned what she doing there. Corporate training at Logan's behest? Was Caroline (the non-Connor Roy siblings' mom) in London? Is "London" some sort of euphemistic code, like on Veep when Selina said she was at a "spa" when she was staying in a psychiatric facility? There was that close shot of Shiv before she greeted Tom, and she looked awfully rattled. (And let me just say, Sarah Snook's acting in this episode is excellent.)

Last big question: what are Logan's true intentions towards Shiv succeeding him? The writers have kept it ambiguous. There are a few possibilities:

1. He genuinely wanted Shiv to succeed him in 2x01 and still wants her to succeed him, but is just playing it close to the vest.

2. He genuinely wanted Shiv to succeed him in 2x01, but he has changed his mind and no longer wants that for whatever reason (Shiv bungling the Rhea negotiation, Shiv trying to force his hand).

3. He never genuinely wanted Shiv to succeed him, but he dangled the carrot to ensure that she left her political career and came back into the fold.

4. He never genuinely wanted Shiv to succeed him and is doing all this as elaborate punishment for her "treason" with Gil Eavis in S1.

I do think that the fact that not even Marcia knew about his planning with Shiv--a snippet of the actual episode script which was posted on Vulture showed had Marcia whispering to Logan "Is it true?" after Shiv drops her bombshell--suggests that Logan was genuine. Is all this jerking Shiv around a power move designed to take her down a peg, though, or is he truly indifferent to her succeeding him?

Edited by Eyes High
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COUSIN! LARRY!! APPLETON!!!

I'm only a few minutes in, but that just made me audibly squee!

ETA: Another stellar episode! I could still be on a Mark Linn-Baker giddy high, though. Gosh it was great to see him! I really, REALLY wish we could have seen Connor getting drunk and offering him the state department on camera, but alas.

Yeah, the Pierces suck. Nan's little "have a drink with us, Rosa! Aw, she never treats herself!", I'm-besties-with-the-help song and dance was condescending and shitty, and re-emphasized when she took the applause for the roast at dinner. But it set the tone right away. I think the Roys appeared uncharacteristically uncomfortable because they were. It probably isn't very often that they run into people who are their financial equals, and in this case, holding something that they want/need and can't necessarily get with a snap of their fingers.

I will admit, my heart started beating a million miles a minute when Kendall started up the helicopter. Well done, show. I also gasped when Shiv let it all out at dinner--holy crap, that was one of the most uncomfortable moments of television I have ever seen. I did laugh at Tom afterward, though --  "That was the most Roy thing I have ever seen! It's like I got a quart of Roy injected into my eyeball!"

Of all the loathsome people on the show, I loathe Gerri the least. She's sort of becoming my hero. Logan's right-hand woman and Roman's domme--maybe she really will walk away with the whole thing!

Edited by Aja · Reason: watched the whole thing
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12 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

That's why it stood out the few times somebody did try to step out of their lane, like Roman's ill-advised attempt to rec a book that got jumped on by Shiv even before Marnie called his bluff by googling

Oh, and Logan had his bad moment when his wife sided with the Roys over the wine.

The Roys all went in there expecting they'd have to eat some shit, but that was because they wanted something from the Pierces' rather than feeling shamed by them as people most of the time. Most of the time--but not always. The Pierces did get some hits in, but so did the Roys.

I did think Roman’s “Circus of Elephants” was a nice bit of satire on so many of the literary fads of the day.  Roman is a business idiot, but he is also frequently an astute critic of pretentious nonsense.  His snide translations of the Latin motto can be seen either as ignorance or as a commentary on the sheer pomposity of having such a motto In the first place.

And I cannot resist commenting on the peculiarity of serving the roast in the baking pan...  who the heck carved it, I wonder?  

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10 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

I'm wondering if we see Logan stroke out in the finale leaving Gerri as the woman on the docs as successor. I'd love it.

I could see that and it would be great.  After that conversation with his doctor I think something is going to happen with his health.

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11 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

I'm wondering if we see Logan stroke out in the finale leaving Gerri as the woman on the docs as successor. I'd love it.

I'm curious when or even if Logan is going to die during the course of the series. He's sort of the emotional centre of the show, at this point, and he's more intelligent, charismatic and dramatically compelling than all four of his ridiculous, feckless children put together. He's the beating, brutal heart of the show, the Malcolm Tucker (from The Thick of It) of Succession, and Malcolm's downfall didn't occur until the very end of the show.

With all that said, I don't know if the real character arcs of Kendall, Shiv and Roman can really truly begin until he actually dies. As long as Logan is alive, they'll forever be stuck in his orbit in the same cycle: seeking his approval, getting angry when he denies it, lashing out or doubling down on their efforts to please him, being shattered when they inevitably disappoint him, and then trying to redeem themselves in his eyes by again seeking his approval. None of the children seem to have the wherewithal to mature--even Shiv, who at least tried to forge a career for herself outside the family--until Logan dies. It seems to be too late for Connor either way, but I think there's still hope for Shiv, Kendall and Roman. And to watch Shiv, Kendall and Roman go through the same cycle over and over again provides thin gruel in a dramatic sense. If they can't evolve or change and just keeping doing the same thing--and indeed Shiv's S2 arc so far seems to be echoing Kendall's in S1--then where's the story? Where's the narrative interest? The only way it works in my opinion is if either Logan dies or one of the children truly breaks free, not "separate career" free (which is a very tenuous thing as we saw with Shiv and Gil) or "coup attempt" free (also very tenuous), but "irrevocably severs all ties to the family and Waystar" free. I don't think any of the Roy children are capable of such drastic action, though.

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There is plenty of room for the divorce from Marcia and fear of Logan marrying a new, younger, ambitious woman and the reveal of the fifth child who has issues and has been shunted off for years and the sixth one from a fling Logan had years ago who will try to steal the company...

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On 9/11/2019 at 2:56 AM, luckylou said:

I did think Roman’s “Circus of Elephants” was a nice bit of satire on so many of the literary fads of the day.  Roman is a business idiot, but he is also frequently an astute critic of pretentious nonsense.  His snide translations of the Latin motto can be seen either as ignorance or as a commentary on the sheer pomposity of having such a motto In the first place.

Fun fact, I listened to a podcast where someone suggested that it was a real book and he'd just remembered the name wrong. He said it was "Electric Circus" but it may have been "Invisible Circus" by Jennifer Egan, since the plot seems right.

It would fit Roman to be excited to have actually read a book, or heard someone talk about a book, or read a blurb about a book and want to whip it out to impress his family (rather than the Pierces) only to wind up climbing out on a limb with Shiv sawing behind him.

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On 9/9/2019 at 10:54 AM, Pop Tart said:

On another note, Jeremey Strong, though he's playing this beaten-down, depressed, shell of a man, just has chemistry with everyone he has a scene with. His interactions with Reya (Rhea?) and his confab with Naomi? So good. Really every moment of every scene he does, he manages to convey so much with the smallest of changes in facial expression or tone of voice.

I swear I gushed about him last season, but he is just knocking it out of the park again this season.  I mean, he is nearly catatonic in the majority of his scenes but he is just so watchable.  I absolutely shouldn't root for him, and yet I do.  I was so excited to see him smile again, but of course it was under the worst possible circumstances.  I want to believe that his behavior since the accident shows that he must somewhere deep down have some semblance of a soul or conscience, but it could also just be his general humiliation and the fact that his father has one more thing to hold over him.  But I can't see Shiv, Connor or Roman getting suicidal thoughts from something like that.  Especially Roman.  Hell at this point, I'm not even sure I can imagine Tom or Gregory to be overly affected by it.

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4 hours ago, Deanie87 said:

I swear I gushed about him last season, but he is just knocking it out of the park again this season.  I mean, he is nearly catatonic in the majority of his scenes but he is just so watchable.  I absolutely shouldn't root for him, and yet I do.  I was so excited to see him smile again, but of course it was under the worst possible circumstances.  I want to believe that his behavior since the accident shows that he must somewhere deep down have some semblance of a soul or conscience, but it could also just be his general humiliation and the fact that his father has one more thing to hold over him.  But I can't see Shiv, Connor or Roman getting suicidal thoughts from something like that.  Especially Roman.  Hell at this point, I'm not even sure I can imagine Tom or Gregory to be overly affected by it.

And while I don't necessarily find Kendall physically attractive, I loooove his voice.  Oh, daddy...

How is that voice coming out of that little guy?  😍

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8 hours ago, Deanie87 said:

I swear I gushed about him last season, but he is just knocking it out of the park again this season.  I mean, he is nearly catatonic in the majority of his scenes but he is just so watchable.  I absolutely shouldn't root for him, and yet I do.  I was so excited to see him smile again, but of course it was under the worst possible circumstances.  I want to believe that his behavior since the accident shows that he must somewhere deep down have some semblance of a soul or conscience, but it could also just be his general humiliation and the fact that his father has one more thing to hold over him.  But I can't see Shiv, Connor or Roman getting suicidal thoughts from something like that.  Especially Roman.  Hell at this point, I'm not even sure I can imagine Tom or Gregory to be overly affected by it.

OTOH though, he did try to play it off like he wasn't involved.

He didn't report to authorities.

So if Logan didn't confront him with the evidence, would Kendall have eventually come forward?

Would he have felt guilty?

Does he feel guilty now or he's just in this state more because of being under Logan's thumb than his conscience?

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1 hour ago, scrb said:

OTOH though, he did try to play it off like he wasn't involved.

He didn't report to authorities.

So if Logan didn't confront him with the evidence, would Kendall have eventually come forward?

Would he have felt guilty?

Does he feel guilty now or he's just in this state more because of being under Logan's thumb than his conscience?

I don't think Kendall would have turned himself in, but I think he would still feel as guilty as he does. 

I think the guilt would have  either led to self destructive behavior or turning himself in.  Probably the former 😞 

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9 hours ago, RealReality said:

I think the guilt would have  either led to self destructive behavior or turning himself in.  Probably the former

This still drives me crazy since the whole thing was an accident! The guy swerved to avoid a deer in the road. Kendall tried to save him, but couldn't. Had he notified the police, I can't see him convicted for anything. (He didn't leave the scene of a crime if no crime was committed.)

If he went to a therapist about his guilt, I think he might realize this. Now, he and his father would still want his involvement covered up because it doesn't look good for Waystar to have its CEO's son's drug addiction known. But then Kendall would be under his father's thumb for that only, which possibly would not result in Kendall engagint in self-destructive behavior.

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37 minutes ago, smartymarty said:

This still drives me crazy since the whole thing was an accident! The guy swerved to avoid a deer in the road. Kendall tried to save him, but couldn't. Had he notified the police, I can't see him convicted for anything. (He didn't leave the scene of a crime if no crime was committed.)

If he went to a therapist about his guilt, I think he might realize this. Now, he and his father would still want his involvement covered up because it doesn't look good for Waystar to have its CEO's son's drug addiction known. But then Kendall would be under his father's thumb for that only, which possibly would not result in Kendall engagint in self-destructive behavior.

If he had reported it right after the accident and they did a blood or urine test it would have shown that he had drugs in his system.  I assume that is illegal in the UK as well.

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12 hours ago, scrb said:

OTOH though, he did try to play it off like he wasn't involved.

He didn't report to authorities.

So if Logan didn't confront him with the evidence, would Kendall have eventually come forward?

Would he have felt guilty?

Does he feel guilty now or he's just in this state more because of being under Logan's thumb than his conscience?

I definitely don't think he would turn himself in, but I do think that he feels guilty.  That may not be his only emotion, but I think its a significant one.  If Logan hadn't found out, I still think that the guilt would eat away at him.  But I'm sure that adding Logan to the mix of anything in Kendall's life just makes it that much more excruciating and muddled.  My question is whether or not Logan actually feels compassion toward his son in any measure at all, or if he is just playing on Kendall's guilt and weakness.  I think it is probably mostly the latter, but a little bit of the former.  What I like is that I can find a shred of humanity in all the characters, as terrible as they are.  Except for Tom for some reason LOL!

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I'm not sure if he feels guilty or not. I don't think he's somebody who cares so little about other people that he doesn't care, exactly, but I feel like if he had gotten away with it he would have been able to walk away from it and not always be bothered by it because it would just start to feel like a dream. So I feel like he probably feels some sense of dread about the whole thing, but those kinds of feelings just aren't developed in him enough to reach a level of guilt or remorse. He's like a child that way, which is exactly how he acted after the accident happened. He tried to just walk away and pretend it hadn't happened. (It's reminding me of something in the movie Hereditary, for anyone who's seen that--only in that case the person involved is still a teenager and they do feel guilt.)

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On 9/11/2019 at 10:40 AM, sistermagpie said:

Fun fact, I listened to a podcast where someone suggested that it was a real book and he'd just remembered the name wrong. He said it was "Electric Circus" but it may have been "Invisible Circus" by Jennifer Egan, since the plot seems right.

It would fit Roman to be excited to have actually read a book, or heard someone talk about a book, or read a book and want to whip it out to impress his family (rather than the Pierces) only to wind up climbing out on a limb with Shiv sawing behind him.

Oh, I love this possibility.  Most likely he himself had heard of the book...I just cannot believe he would have read anything, and somehow seems more likely than making something up from whole cloth. 

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3 minutes ago, luckylou said:

Oh, I love this possibility.  Most likely he himself had heard of the book...I just cannot believe he would have read anything, and somehow seems more likely than making something up from whole cloth. 

That's where I land too. I don't think he actually read it, but I can imagine him hearing someone talk about it on TV or in some group he was in or even picking it up off a coffee table and reading the dust jacket and remembering some details. It really doesn't seem like he'd make it up out of whole cloth--or that if he was going to try that that he'd come up with two separate time periods and two sisters. It came from somewhere. If he'd actually read it he'd have recalled some details, probably, even if they were odd ones.

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4 hours ago, Dminches said:

If he had reported it right after the accident and they did a blood or urine test it would have shown that he had drugs in his system.  I assume that is illegal in the UK as well.

I think it's drug possession, manufacture or sale that are illegal, not swallowing illegal drugs. He wasn't behind the wheel, so it wasn't a DWI.

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1 hour ago, smartymarty said:

I think it's drug possession, manufacture or sale that are illegal, not swallowing illegal drugs. He wasn't behind the wheel, so it wasn't a DWI.

Kendall was absolutely driving.  The waiter said he couldn't drive so Kendall got behind the wheel.  It was definitely a DUI.

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I’ve watched the episode a number of times now and a couple more things occurred to me. The first is funny. Roman, after he asked Tabitha to play dead, goes to Geri’s room and his knock is in the beat of the song (poem?) “pray for the dead and the dead will pray for you”. Nice touch writers.

The other thing that struck me about the siblings is that they do as my siblings and I do (all of us long-time adults), and that is to revert to our childhood roles and behaviors when in the presence of a parent. I think Eyes High has it right, Kendall, Shiv, Roman and Conner will never be different in the work place as long as Logan’s around. Away from Logan they might be better-functioning adults, but will revert when they’re in the vicinity of their dad.

Even when Shiv was supposed to be selling the deal and the family at the dinner she’s still needling Roman. She was the one who kept pushing him to describe the plot of the book, etc. And Roman made multiple snide comments to and about Kendall in front of the Pierces, while he was also supposed to be trying to help seal the deal.

Logan has clearly always made them compete for his attention and so that’s what they do. That and put each other down to make themselves look better in comparison.

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3 hours ago, Pop Tart said:

Logan has clearly always made them compete for his attention and so that’s what they do. That and put each other down to make themselves look better in comparison.

Sibling rivalry may be the only explanation for why someone like Roman, who's clearly never applied himself to be good at anything, is interested at all in inheriting control of Waystar.

Because he doesn't want his brothers or sister to get it.

Kendall may have gone to business school or has some knowledge about finance and media markets.  Shiv became a fairly successful political consultant.

But what skill does Roman bring to the table?  Ability to snark and adopt a mocking persona?

They're each worth at least several hundred million dollars.  So Roman seems to be the type of idle spoiled rich kid who wouldn't care about trying to accomplish anything on his own.

Roman might be content to lead a sybaritic lifestyle, funded by his inherited wealth.  He might be, if he enjoyed sex or had other pleasures -- he boasted about all the pussy he's drowning in but we've seen that's unlikely.  Instead he's knocking on Gerri's door when he wants to get off.

Connor pretends to not want the job but if he wants to run for president, he could just as well be head of Waystar.  Maybe because the family thinks he's kooky and don't have high expectations of him?  Connor is the one who said they needed to keep the company in the family's hands because any schmuck could have a few million dollars, indicating that it wasn't enough to be wealthy but they had to do something big with that wealth.

Not sure if Roman thinks that way or he just doesn't want his brother or sister to get the big prize.

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8 hours ago, Pop Tart said:

The other thing that struck me about the siblings is that they do as my siblings and I do (all of us long-time adults), and that is to revert to our childhood roles and behaviors when in the presence of a parent. I think Eyes High has it right, Kendall, Shiv, Roman and Conner will never be different in the work place as long as Logan’s around. Away from Logan they might be better-functioning adults, but will revert when they’re in the vicinity of their dad.

Even when Shiv was supposed to be selling the deal and the family at the dinner she’s still needling Roman. She was the one who kept pushing him to describe the plot of the book, etc. And Roman made multiple snide comments to and about Kendall in front of the Pierces, while he was also supposed to be trying to help seal the deal.

Good points @Pop Tart.  It also stood out to me, when Conner was about to go off on Maxim at the dinner, Kendall gently placed a hand on his shoulder to quiet him, rather than mocking or attacking him.  Or when Shiv basically insulted ATN by praising the Pierce news operation, and Kendall politely disagreed by pointing out some ATN virtues, rather than eviscerating Shiv at the dinner table.

All of which is to say that even in Kendall's current state (semi-suicidal, under his dad's thumb, self-medicated, possibly tormented by the waiter's drowning) he's got a better head on him than any of the other kids when it matters most.  

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TBH, I thought Kendall was kind of a douche in the pilot the way he was playing loud hip hop in the back of the limo.

A middle-aged wigga?

Then he was talking all kinds of trash with the Vaulter guy.

He could have forced himself on that ATN anchor who was ordered to "show him a good time" at the charity event.

He tried to be good with his ex Rava for awhile but then burned his bridges over the the divorce settlement.

He tried to be friendly with that art startup chick but then when they turned his investment down, he told Frank to burn them, spread rumors about her being a junkie slut or something.

He's not quite the big-dick swinger that Logan is but he can be an asshole.  He tried to reason with the board members to vote against Logan whereas Logan just bullied them into voting for him.

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