S02.E05: Tern Haven

[sistermagpie]

10 hours ago, scrb said:

Roman might be content to lead a sybaritic lifestyle, funded by his inherited wealth.  He might be, if he enjoyed sex or had other pleasures -- he boasted about all the pussy he's drowning in but we've seen that's unlikely.  Instead he's knocking on Gerri's door when he wants to get off.

Connor pretends to not want the job but if he wants to run for president, he could just as well be head of Waystar.  Maybe because the family thinks he's kooky and don't have high expectations of him?  Connor is the one who said they needed to keep the company in the family's hands because any schmuck could have a few million dollars, indicating that it wasn't enough to be wealthy but they had to do something big with that wealth.

That reminds me of something somebody said about the Varsity Blues scandal, that these kids already have enough money that they're guaranteed a good life. If only they (or their parents) hadn't needed to also appear accomplished...

It's interesting how it's like Kendall and Shiv are the kids who openly try to be competent--Kendall at the business and Shiv, previously at least, by having a career in politics. Connor and Roman are the kids who clearly try to protect themselves by saying they don't care about that stuff, iow they're not trying and failing to be dad, they're taking themselves out. And yet it almost seems like those are the two who have the most anxiety about so when they do get some opportunity to prove their worth they go completely overboard, like Connor at the dinner ("Just wanted to say sorry about the butter") and Roman with just about everything, including the satellite. They swing back and forth between the two extremes. Both choose lives of leisure but can't really fully commit themselves to it. They need everyone to believe that they're choosing this leisure rather than suspecting they couldn't do stuff if they tried.

So it's funny that it's Roman who asks Connor if he doesn't think that he shouldn't go straight from "never done nothing" to the most important job in the world without stopping to get some experience, maybe at a CVS. It's exactly what Roman himself is always trying to do. Both of them sit on the sidelines telling themselves they could totally do this stuff and having wholly unrealistic expectations.

Their mistakes at dinner are even similar in contrast to the two other kids. Shiv and Kendall flame out in their own ways, but they're still seen by various Pierces as existing in some significant way, while Connor and Roman are just ridiculous, tossing things off only to have the Pierce casually say something that shows how little they know.

5 minutes ago, scrb said:

TBH, I thought Kendall was kind of a douche in the pilot the way he was playing loud hip hop in the back of the limo.

Yeah, he's obviously weak. Everybody saw him as a guy trying to pretend he was up to his position and not just a kid whose power came from his dad. He tried to prove otherwise and couldn't, because he's not. 

I loved it in this ep where Naomi said something like "You're a little nothing, aren't you?" and he said yes. He's looking his limits in the face now and even used that to talk to Naomi.

[ahpny]

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Why was Marcia so salty the whole time? What does she even want right now that she's not getting?

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Color me confused about Marsha too. I guess she wants her own seat at the table and she has been relegated to "lady who turns off Alexa".

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This episode, she seemed to barely tolerate Logan and seemed to actively be working against his deal (not that his own children were any better). Her complete 180 in this episode seemed to come out of the blue.

This the first time we've seen any significant tension between Logan and Marcia. It definitely means something. But even more was going on with Marcia too. Nan asked about Marcia's background growing up in Lebanon and both Marcia and Logan clumsily deflecting that question and refused to provide any information at all. Something is definitely up with this too. Marcia's backstory could be very interesting (and there's something worth concealing there). Increased tensions between Logan and Marcia also opens the door to all sorts of mischief.

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I'm still not sure why Shiv has been so impatient for her father to declare her.

I'm not sure this has a definitive answer, but my take is that she knows how mercurial her father is, and she's already given up her "day job" with the politician (and his offer of Chief of Staff). Maybe she feels that if she doesn't lock this down soon, the opportunity with evaporate.

[scrb]

I wonder if they have a specific backstory for Marcia.

Remember in season 1, Shiv used her contacts to try to find out about her background or maybe more like dig up dirt on her.

Marcia went to Shiv and said "if you want to know about me, all you have to do is ask me."

But she probably didn't appreciate Logan waving her away to go turn off Alexa when he was sitting down with Shiv earlier this season.

She did protect him when he was sick so even if she doesn't have her own agenda, she may be right to feel that Logan hasn't been grateful enough for her loyalty.

[Dminches]

3 hours ago, ahpny said:

I'm not sure this has a definitive answer, but my take is that she knows how mercurial her father is, and she's already given up her "day job" with the politician (and his offer of Chief of Staff). Maybe she feels that if she doesn't lock this down soon, the opportunity with evaporate.

I think Shiv is anxious because she isn’t sure it is going to happen.  Thus, she is trying to force the issue and basically make Logan says “yes” or “no, I am not going to name you.”

[RealReality]

16 hours ago, Dminches said:

I think Shiv is anxious because she isn’t sure it is going to happen.  Thus, she is trying to force the issue and basically make Logan says “yes” or “no, I am not going to name you.”

I think she was trying to force a yes at the dinner table.  I don't think a "no" was really anywhere but in the way back of her mind. 

The problem is that Logan doesn't seem to have told anyone.  He didn't tell kendall, Conner, roman, Gerri, frank or even tom.  

If he said something to anyone outside the waystar family, it would be somewhat public and harder for him to renege on his "plan" to have shiv succeed him.

While I don't fully believe that logan ever planned for shiv to succeed him, even if he did, Logan can now easily dispatch with those plans.  He hadn't told ANYONE that shiv would succeed him.....not within waystar and certainly not to anyone outside of waystar or in the public.  

And, of course, he can blame it on shiv.  Good luck to her on getting that job back with not Bernie Sanders after setting that bridge on fire. 

Maybe she takes over Connors campaign at Logan's behest.  That would certainly be a way to humble and humiliate shiv. 

Edited September 15, 2019 by RealReality

[Dminches]

36 minutes ago, RealReality said:

I think she was trying to force a yes at the dinner table.  I don't think a "no" was really anywhere but in the way back of her mind. 

I do.  In one of the conversations between Shiv and Tom in their apartment she broached the idea that it could never happen.  She knew this wasn't a certainty even before Logan pushed back at dinner.

[RealReality]

4 hours ago, Dminches said:

I do.  In one of the conversations between Shiv and Tom in their apartment she broached the idea that it could never happen.  She knew this wasn't a certainty even before Logan pushed back at dinner.

I think that was shiv desperately trying to be logical.  When it comes to this position though, she is in no way logical.  So, no, I don't think she wanted a solid answer yes or no.....I think she wanted to force Logan into a yes. 

[ladle]

On 9/9/2019 at 10:54 AM, Pop Tart said:

On another note, Jeremey Strong, though he's playing this beaten-down, depressed, shell of a man, just has chemistry with everyone he has a scene with. His interactions with Reya (Rhea?) and his confab with Naomi? So good. Really every moment of every scene he does, he manages to convey so much with the smallest of changes in facial expression or tone of voice.

This cast, pretty much universally is stellar, so I could call them each out for something, but JS just hits me every time.

So much this! I mean, Kieran is great, but I’m shocked that JS hasn’t gotten any nominations for his work on this show. He is SO nuanced and good. 

[TV Diva Queen]

who was the actress that played a Pierce lady that pulled out her phone to check Rom's book title?  Ugh!

[Rockfish]

On 9/8/2019 at 10:50 PM, showme said:

Why is it "appropriate"? Is that a known side effect of drug use? If not, what does the particular scene trying to say?

Back in the day, I heard that coke was often cut with some sort of laxative—don’t know if that’s actually true, but I thought that was part of the reason for him shifting the bed.

About Marcia, I think she sensed Logan had demoted her somewhat. Whereas before she’d been his confidant and coconspirator, here she was just another member of the family meant to perform and follow his instructions; she resented not knowing about his earlier conversation with Shiv.

Edited October 23, 2019 by Rockfish

[RedDelicious]

On 10/23/2019 at 10:51 AM, TV Diva Queen said:

who was the actress that played a Pierce lady that pulled out her phone to check Rom's book title?  Ugh!

I don’t know but I have the exact same (faux) pearl necklace she’s wearing; it’s Kenneth Jay Lane ☺️

[Milburn Stone]

On 9/10/2019 at 10:24 AM, Eyes High said:

With the Pierces, they have a different expression of power. Their power move involves shaming others for their ignorance and flaunting their superior knowledge and refinement: literary references thrown in, translating Latin, Shakespeare quotes, casually asking someone you strongly suspect hasn't picked up a book in years what they like to read, etc. And really, while being less openly distasteful, making someone squirm about not reading books is in its way just as rude and nasty as making fun of someone pursuing impractical PhDs.

This reminds me of my absolute favorite moment in an episode brimming with great ones. It was a small moment, but it revealed much about Nan's character.

It was during the cocktail hour, when she invited the cook to have a drink with the company. While appearing to be egalitarian, it was in fact the ultimate sadistic power move, because she knew the cook would decline, and nothing would underline the tremendous gulf between her and the help like a magnanimous offer the recipient doesn't have the status to possibly accept. It was pure cruelty on Nan's part, all the while supporting her "brand" as a social progressive who doesn't care about class distinctions. She might be worse than Logan Roy, who at least is honest in such matters.

[Wouldofshouldof]

On ‎9‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 9:44 PM, BlackberryJam said:

I ship myself and Gerri’s pajamas. 

And Kendall shipped himself, but without the jammies.

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

It was during the cocktail hour, when she invited the cook to have a drink with the company. While appearing to be egalitarian, it was in fact the ultimate sadistic power move, because she knew the cook would decline, and nothing would underline the tremendous gulf between her and the help like a magnanimous offer the recipient doesn't have the status to possibly accept. It was pure cruelty on Nan's part, all the while supporting her "brand" as a social progressive who doesn't care about class distinctions. She might be worse than Logan Roy, who at least is honest in such matters.

I didn't even take it as sadistic so much as just careless. She wanted to make a show of how egalitarian she was, and in that moment she probably thought she really was inviting the woman to join them, but of course it's not like she was giving the woman extra time to get dinner on the table and Nan's not going to waste any thought on how those things are supposed to work together. In that moment Nan's offering to have a drink with the cook and that makes her a great person in her own mind. She doesn't really think about any of these people as equals, but she's proud of thinking of them as equals.

So for me the different with Logan is that Logan revels in announcing his superiority where as Nan demands on an extra layer of performance by the help where they pretend she makes them feel like equals when of course she does not. Logan would rather be feared, Nan demands to be loved, even if it's fake.

Edited February 7, 2020 by sistermagpie

[Milburn Stone]

47 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I didn't even take it as sadistic so much as just careless. She wanted to make a show of how egalitarian she was, and in that moment she probably thought she really was inviting the woman to join them, but of course it's not like she was giving the woman extra time to get dinner on the table and Nan's not going to waste any thought on how those things are supposed to work together. In that moment Nan's offering to have a drink with the cook and that makes her a great person in her own mind. She doesn't really think about any of these people as equals, but she's proud of thinking of them as equals.

So for me the different with Logan is that Logan revels in announcing his superiority where as Nan demands on an extra layer of performance by the help where they pretend she makes them feel like equals when of course she does not. Logan would rather be feared, Nan demands to be loved, even if it's fake.

I think we're pretty close on this. It was thoughtlessness of a sort, but thoughtlessness that any decent person would have thought about and not done! 

Nan can't possibly think that the cook would feel comfortable being complicit in the lie that she's their "equal." The result of Nan's gesture could only be humiliation. But possibly Nan is so self-unaware that she doesn't think about this. (I'm not convinced of that, but it is possible.) The uber-rich can afford to be clueless.

[sistermagpie]

32 minutes ago, Milburn Stone said:

I think we're pretty close on this. It was thoughtlessness of a sort, but thoughtlessness that any decent person would have thought about and not done! 

Nan can't possibly think that the cook would feel comfortable being complicit in the lie that she's their "equal." The result of Nan's gesture could only be humiliation. But possibly Nan is so self-unaware that she doesn't think about this. (I'm not convinced of that, but it is possible.) The uber-rich can afford to be clueless.

Yes, I agree. It's basically that she's so rich she doesn't even have to own her cruelty--and this probably also comes from them being an old money family as well. Logan is still being more honest about it, but just the way her family "hides" their money by using sheets with low thread count they also "hide" their absolute power by being cozy. Her iron fist is just as solid as Logan's, she just finds it amusing to put a velvet glove on it.

[Milburn Stone]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

...just the way her family "hides" their money by using sheets with low thread count they also "hide" their absolute power by being cozy.

Good observation on the low thread count. There's no better way of virtue-signaling!

[scrb]

Is that a real thing?

Rich people with expansive estates but they go cheap on the linen to be what, seen as being unconcerned about comfort?

[Milburn Stone]

10 hours ago, scrb said:

Is that a real thing?

Rich people with expansive estates but they go cheap on the linen to be what, seen as being unconcerned about comfort?

Some sort of New England Puritan "pleasures of the flesh are sinful" thing mixed with a delusion that they're hardy pioneers mixed with "we're rich, not wasteful," mixed with "we're better than people who need high thread counts" mixed with "concern for the planet." (I'm not sure how that last one ties in but I'm sure it does.)

[Blakeston]

Marcia's anger about Shiv makes me think that she's like Livia from I, Claudius - angling for her son to inherit his stepfather's empire, but too savvy to just come out and say so.

[KittyQ]

On 9/10/2019 at 8:24 AM, Eyes High said:

Logan generally takes pride in his ignorance, since he succeeded in spite of not being up on his Plato or his Shakespeare (and since all the Pierces' learning yielded to Logan's cold, hard cash), but it does seem like he hates to be reminded that he's lacking in that area (his angry response when Frank  attempted to explain a Coriolanus reference to him, for example).

I think Logan's tactic is to turn the negative (lack of refinement, culture, etc.) into a positive where he flaunts his crudeness, painting the other side as lame effetes, not full-blooded people of action. (Think of those Western movies where the Eastern dandy goes up against the rough and ready cowboys.)

It does seem to bug him when someone casually says something in a way that suggests "anyone should know this".