S03.E04: They Can Never Go Home

[Drogo]

Lori returns to New York for an audition and runs into some familiar faces; while searching for actors for her new film, Candy speaks to her critics at a Women Against Pornography meeting; as things heat up with Jennifer, Alston takes a drastic step to deliver for Goldman; Melissa leaves the city; Abby grows closer to Pilar as her relationship with Vincent wanes; Vincent and Frankie celebrate an eventful birthday.

[MCMLXXVII]

I found the Dworkin/WAP/Candy  stuff really interesting. 

[nilyank]

Frankie's luck ran out tonight.

For both of them.

I know that Lori was offended that Vinnie asked for the condom, but I was glad that he did.

[Armchair Critic]

I called Frankie getting killed on the first episode of the season thread but we all saw it coming.

Edited October 1, 2019 by Armchair Critic

[Traveller519]

Definitely not a good night to be named Frankie. Black Frankie definitely gets my sympathy of the two of them though.

Abby looked genuinely happy at the Birthday celebration, which surprised me. Not as happy as when she was with Pilar, but happy. It will be interesting to see how it plays out, especially as Vincent deals with the Frankie fallout.

The Jack Maple stuff continues to make me laugh.

[revbfc]

I was a teenager during the late 80’s, and use of condoms was drilled into us.  The fact that Lori was offended by an act that was (and still is) a show of respect for the health of both people was beyond the pale.

[txhorns79]

3 hours ago, revbfc said:

I was a teenager during the late 80’s, and use of condoms was drilled into us.  The fact that Lori was offended by an act that was (and still is) a show of respect for the health of both people was beyond the pale.

I think you have to see it through Lori's point of view.  It's unlikely she would have had much of any sex education growing up, and she's worked in an industry for decades where condoms are not part of the package  She sees the request to use condoms now as an affront, as she thinks it implies something about her.  

I didn't really understand why Melissa was moving back to Michigan when things seem unstable with her father.  I mean, your mid-30s seem a little old to just give up your life in New York to move back to a place you haven't lived since you were a young teen.       

[tennisgurl]

I guess it was inevitable that Frankie's luck would run out, and I figured he wouldn't make it through the season, but I was still shocked to see it actually go down. Not a good night to be a Frankie indeed. It will be interesting seeing how Vincent deals with this, especially with his kinda relationship with Abbey and if she stays with him through it or they take the opportunity to cut the cord. 

The stuff with the feminist group and Candy is really interesting. That one woman really came there for a fight right away, even Candy seemed surprised at how little any of them wanted to listen to her, with that one woman basically telling Candy that it was her fault that women are being raped. I do wonder what their thoughts on M/M porn are like, or if its something they've even considered. Is that considered ok because women arent usually involved? 

Oh Lori, I dont blame her for walking away from that movie role, it sounded like hot garbage. Very typical of late 70s/early 80s exploitation or low rent movies though, I swear I've seen that exact plot about 30 times in bad thrillers from that time period in old VHS films in the video store! I also get why she was offended that Vincent asked to use a condom, having to real knowledge of safe sex, but it was still head spinning to see! That was actually Vincent being considerate!

Naked woman with crappy dialogue? Porn. Naked women with Shakespeare? Art. 

[revbfc]

3 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I think you have to see it through Lori's point of view.     

AIDS was a death sentence back then that came with an overwhelming social stigma. Lori’s attitude about condoms was out of place for the time, and out of character for someone who was so vigilante about a coworker wearing one during the last episode.  There’s no way I can “See it from her perspective.”  The writers fucked up this one.

[sd dude]

1 minute ago, revbfc said:

Lori’s attitude about condoms was out of place for the time, and out of character for someone who was so vigilante about a coworker wearing one during the last episode.  

Exactly.  I was about to post basically the same thing.  Perhaps the character's mindset was that the "gay-for-pay" performer was high risk to be HIV+ and Vince insisting on using a condom with her was attributing similar risk to her, which she found insulting to be equated with the other porn performer who was doing gay porn.  That might well have been Lori's mindset, but it is completely delusional.  Especially since she gave in to the porn director and agreed to work bareback (he only agreed to condoms for anal sex) so if she thinks the "gay-for-pay" guy was high risk, then I guess so was she!

[Moxie Cat]

Maybe someone can explain the condom scene to me. Why did Lori take the condom as such an affront when just two weeks ago, she had insisted on her porn costar wearing it for the anal sex scene? Did people just think it was needed for anal sex? Or was she offended because she felt Vincent knew her personally? Even if that was the case, Vincent would have been out of his mind to not use it, and she should have realized that too. He knew her, yeah - as CC's prostitute for years, and then again for years as a porn actress. Not exactly someone who hadn't been exposed to many, many partners. I just didn't get that scene. She works in that business, she certainly would have known about AIDS (not to mention other diseases).

Emily Meade is doing a wonderful job portraying Lori as someone who looks at least 20 years older than first-season Lori (only 2 "real" years prior!) Some of it is hair and makeup, but much is also her demeanor. (Compare that to the twins, who seem exactly the same age as the first season.) I also thought her singing was fantastic and was disappointed at the ending, but we've all been in that situation when nothing seems to work out, no matter what you try, so I got her, too. I'm still hopeful that she will end the series as some type of moderately-popular Tori Amos-type musician who does a set at Lilith Fair 10+ years later.

[Lemons]

1 hour ago, revbfc said:

AIDS was a death sentence back then that came with an overwhelming social stigma. Lori’s attitude about condoms was out of place for the time, and out of character for someone who was so vigilante about a coworker wearing one during the last episode.  There’s no way I can “See it from her perspective.”  The writers fucked up this one.

It was 1985. Lori knew it to be a virus affecting gay men.  They still knew hardly anything and I don’t think prostitutes were on the list of high risk people yet. 

[txhorns79]

2 hours ago, Moxie Cat said:

Emily Meade is doing a wonderful job portraying Lori as someone who looks at least 20 years older than first-season Lori (only 2 "real" years prior!) Some of it is hair and makeup, but much is also her demeanor.

That's interesting.  I don't think Lori looks older at all.  Having said that, I think Abby looks significantly older this season, while Eileen hasn't aged at all (even though she presumably has had a much rougher life). 

I did wonder if Alston was having a flashback to Thunder Thighs when he was looking at the heavyset black prostitute during the episode. 

[Moxie Cat]

26 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

Having said that, I think Abby looks significantly older this season, while Eileen hasn't aged at all (even though she presumably has had a much rougher life).

Isn't that interesting! I completely disagree - I think Abby looks about the same (though her hair is WAY better) and Eileen looks just older enough for someone who's now doing well in her career. 

You are absolutely right about Allston and his flashback - "call me Ruby"! That was a lovely and sad moment. 

[Surrealist]

8 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

She sees the request to use condoms now as an affront, as she thinks it implies something about her.  

Bingo. She basically told Vince that he sees her as a dirty whore and nothing more. 

Although she was insistent on condom use with her costar. So, it's kind of weird she would have an issue with Vincent wanting to wear one.

Yeah, the move for Melissa seemed quick, but I kind of understood it too. I think it's likely she would have wound up dead if she had stayed in NY any longer, and perhaps, she realized it too. 

Edited October 2, 2019 by Surrealist

[txhorns79]

1 minute ago, Surrealist said:

Yeah, the move for Melissa seemed quick, but I kind of understood it too. I think it's likely she would have wound up dead if she had stayed in NY any longer, and perhaps, she realized it too. 

I don't know that I agree with that.  To me, her life appeared fairly stable.  She was able to afford a decent looking apartment, she had friends and didn't appear to be hooked on anything.  If anything, I'd say moving back to Michigan was going to destabilize her life.  I mean, she has been away from that place for nearly 20 years.  What kind of life is there for her?   

[DangerousMinds]

22 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I don't know that I agree with that.  To me, her life appeared fairly stable.  She was able to afford a decent looking apartment, she had friends and didn't appear to be hooked on anything.  If anything, I'd say moving back to Michigan was going to destabilize her life.  I mean, she has been away from that place for nearly 20 years.  What kind of life is there for her?   

Something that doesn't involve pornography Or prostitution?

[DoctorAtomic]

10 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

think you have to see it through Lori's point of view.  It's unlikely she would have had much of any sex education growing up, and she's worked in an industry for decades where condoms are not part of the package  She sees the request to use condoms now as an affront, as she thinks it implies something about her.  

But wasn't she complaining about the lack of condoms on set at the house with the pool and the corn? She was complaining that the actor was gay for pay. I think she was really just pissed off all episode and lashing out. Her song was actually quite good. I think the whole thing was about the lack of control over her own life. She didn't want the part, but the guy still stormed out to get it, etc. 

Well, I guess none of us were surprised about Frankie. It's always the drugs. I didn't know the shooter was the son of a made man until . I don't know how that actually works. I guess the surprise is that it wasn't Rudy. 

I didn't know "Andrea" was Dworkin until the subtitles told me. I don't think the "and who are you?" is a particularly good debate tactic, and she came off really condescending. 

[peridot]

Vincent came off as pathetic when he hijacked Abby and Pilar's tryst, and tried to join them.

No surprise about Frankie, glad it finally happened. I just didn't understand his arrogance towards hardened criminals.

Lori gave up on singing and guitar playing too easily. I think if she finally commits to being sober, she could be a successful singer.

I was glad to see she was able to get comfort from Mike, and thought Vincent would be decent enough not to come on to her. 

[txhorns79]

17 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

Something that doesn't involve pornography Or prostitution?

She could find work in New York that doesn't involve prostitution or pornography.  I'm just looking at the larger picture for her.  Her father seems unable to move beyond her past in a way that does not portend well for their relationship.  You also have to figure that people in her hometown will eventually find out what she has done, which would likely not go well for her, and without a built up support system there, things could go off the rails pretty quickly.  I think part of this is just that we were not given much insight into her decision making, so we are left to guess as to what her goals are here.          

[sadie]

I thought the scene with Candy and the WAP group was fascinating. Both sides had valid points and I kinda understood the one woman’s hostility, as much as Candy is trying to raise the bar and treats her “cast” well, most of the women we’ve seen in this industry ARE being used, mistreated and abused. I think part of it did resonate with Candy but she just didn’t want to acknowledge it. Angry feminist woman was right, for every “Candy” there are two dozen “Ruby’s”. And Abby’s point that just criminalizing porn and banning free speech altogether is NOT the answer. The sex industry is a very complex topic and I like that this show understands that and does a good job depicting that. There is no black and white easy answer. 

[Joimiaroxeu]

Five-five and three and a half quarters? What does that mean? Was Lori just blathering because she was on a coke high?

Loved Eileen's leather bustier.

That was quite a takedown of Eileen. "Feminist porn" does seem almost like an oxymoron to me.

Yikes, Frankie getting killed on his birthday. That's going to be extra tough for Vincent for the next few years if not the rest of his life.

[Maysie]

Re Lori and the condom: In 1985 I was finishing college, and at my time and place (meaning not NYC or another major city), HIV/AIDS was not a major thing yet. I remember late 1986/early 1987 talking to one of my friends who was very sexually active and she was just starting to change her behavior because the disease was finally getting on the national radar. If I had to guess, Lori was among those who still associated the virus with gay men, which may be why she wanted the condom while she was working. I also think she wanted some sort of control or say over her work life. I sense she isn't real savvy - I think she's given up so much control over her life to other people (and using enough coke), that I doubt that she's really dialed into the possibility that the virus may extend to other people outside of the gay community or sex trade.

My take on the episode with Vince is that she was craving some sort of intimacy with someone and when Vince wanted the condom, that was ruined - it turned it professional (see above) and made her feel like a whore again. I think Lori is beginning to feel that her only worth is as a body for someone else to use or feel gratification with. I was surprised that she sang so well. I guess because she's used to adulation in her film career that she was expecting instant approval in her singing career, so she was deeply disappointed in a lukewarm response, which was sad (I didn't think the response was all that bad - at least some people clapped for her). Finally, I was surprised that her creepy manager/boyfriend and the lady agent were there for her performance - I did not see that they would be supportive of her in something that didn't have the opportunity for immediate payoff/exploitation of her.

Also unsurprised by Frankie's death. I was pleased beyond measure that he called Bobby out on the rug before he left this world.

I liked the scene between Eileen and the WAP. I have a lot of mixed feelings about the situation and I thought that scene did a great job of bringing up the issues. I don't know why, but somehow I thought that somehow Eileen was going to convince at least one woman of her point of view - I guess because she's been on such a roll, being successful in such a male-dominated world. However, I think the way it played out was much more realistic and as harsh as Andrea was (and rude, and condescending), I think it had an impact on Eileen. I'm more interested in this element of her story than I am in how much more porn can Eileen make and where will she find her money and actors?

[chick binewski]

On 10/1/2019 at 5:29 PM, revbfc said:

AIDS was a death sentence back then that came with an overwhelming social stigma. Lori’s attitude about condoms was out of place for the time, and out of character for someone who was so vigilante about a coworker wearing one during the last episode.  There’s no way I can “See it from her perspective.”  The writers fucked up this one.

20 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I did wonder if Alston was having a flashback to Thunder Thighs when he was looking at the heavyset black prostitute during the episode. 

The condom scene didn't make a lot of sense to me either. I know I've mentioned before how I'm a bit confused how the writers are depicting AIDS - by this time ads promoting condom use for everyone were everywhere. And Lori is a sex worker; if they wanted to play some kind of conflict with her choosing to have sex for pleasure/comfort/whatever they might have taken a different approach.

I also think the writers have kind of screwed up by not showing the kind of opposition they heard from Dworkin until now. Candy (and Gyllenhaal when speaking of the character) talk about honesty and lack of judgment. Abby blathers on about "raising awareness". How does a lack of judgment keep you out of dangerous situations? What is one to do with awareness once it's gained? While I definitely believe Alston was thinking of Ruby when he was in the car, I was hoping Candy was doing the same when Dworkin was drilling her about how most prostitutes end up.

Finally, James Franco hugging James Franco in a scene directed by James Franco might be the most James Franco thing ever.

[Armchair Critic]

Last episode I was worried about Melissa letting her father in and then him becoming violent with her. Glad that didn't happen but it does seem like he is not going to be able to let her past go and she won't find it easy going back to life where she grew up.

[DoctorAtomic]

2 hours ago, chick binewski said:

Finally, James Franco hugging James Franco in a scene directed by James Franco might be the most James Franco thing ever.

I didn't realize he directed too. The Deuce indeed.

[The Ringo Kidd]

I think Melissa will be back on the Deuce before the season is over.

[buttercupia]

Andrea really made Eileen think. That's been the breaking point for a lot of former porn consumers-how do you know that person isn't being raped, abused, or trafficked? Eileen said she maybe needed to hear that, and frankly I was surprised to see such an honest take on this show.

Andrea Dworkin was radical and harsh and difficult, but she was right about porn.

[The Ringo Kidd]

It’s kinda like eating a sausage and pepper hero.

If you think above how the pigs live and how they are slaughtered you would never buy one at the feast of San Gennero.

You never look at how the sausage was made. Everybody knows that!

[Slovenly Muse]

On 10/2/2019 at 2:46 PM, Maysie said:

My take on the episode with Vince is that she was craving some sort of intimacy with someone and when Vince wanted the condom, that was ruined - it turned it professional (see above) and made her feel like a whore again. I think Lori is beginning to feel that her only worth is as a body for someone else to use or feel gratification with.

This is exactly it. That condom scene was brilliant, I thought. Previously, Lori was on set insisting her co-stars wear condoms because she saw them as prostitutes or porn actors who might give her something nasty they picked up on a "gay for pay" film. And when Vince asked her to use a condom, even though he was absolutely right to ask that, it made total sense for Lori to feel like he saw HER as a dirty prostitute/porn star who might give him something. Especially since she's trying to move away from that chapter of her life and be seen as just a woman who is valued and desired for who she is, rather than what she'll do for money. It was a reminder that she'll never be anything but a whore in some people's eyes. So, while Vince was right to ask, you can't say Lori was "wrong" to feel the way she did. It makes perfect sense to me, and people don't always FEEL in ways that are sensible or logical. I thought both of their actions and reactions in that scene were spot-on and perfectly in character.

R.I.P Frankie, I guess. Even though I never understood why his character existed in the first place, and never felt much of a brotherly bond between the Francos who never actually acted opposite each other because they're the same person, I guess he will be missed? (Seriously. I have not understood, even from the beginning, why the show would go to the trouble and expense of having Franco play a dual role, for so little artistic reward (and the detriment of distracting us from the story by making us wonder about how scenes were filmed). If they really wanted brothers, why not make them brothers who are NOT twins and cast different actors, so we could at least get some familial chemistry going on? The only reason the show has needed them to be twins, was so they could be confused for each other in the pilot and Vince would end up tied to the mob, but that could have happened regardless! Same with this hit, if maybe Vince was supposed to be the real target (just guessing), it wasn't really necessary for them to be twins. And, I know this is just nitpicking, and it always bothers me when I see one actor playing twins, but the Francos didn't look DIFFERENT enough from each other to be realistic twins. Very few adult twins are actually perfectly identical. They have slightly different facial features, not just different hairstyles. Anyway, I guess when I say Frankie will be missed, I mean... not by me.) But I'm definitely interested to see how these last few episodes play out without him!

[AgentRXS]

7 minutes ago, Slovenly Muse said:

. If they really wanted brothers, why not make them brothers who are NOT twins and cast different actors, so we could at least get some familial chemistry going on?

The real life Vincent, who provided much of the background material on this show, was a twin. The events surrounding Frankie's death on the show happened in real life, except the real life Frankie didn't die as a result of the shooting.

[Slovenly Muse]

Wow, thanks @AgentRXS! I had no idea the characters were based on real people! That makes so much sense, and it actually helps a lot to explain some of the creative decisions that have confused me (see above). Appreciate the background!

[PamelaMaeSnap]

On 10/1/2019 at 9:20 PM, Moxie Cat said:

Isn't that interesting! I completely disagree - I think Abby looks about the same (though her hair is WAY better) and Eileen looks just older enough for someone who's now doing well in her career. 

You are absolutely right about Allston and his flashback - "call me Ruby"! That was a lovely and sad moment. 

I was wondering about that moment as well ... I even looked for the name of the actress who played Ruby in the credits!

[Nande]

As Vincent is seen crying over Frankie and the scene fades to black, who the hell thought it was a good idea to play the upbeat outro song. 😂