S03.E10: Witness

[Umbelina]

34 minutes ago, jenn31 said:

Of course in these showrunners’ world June will excel no matter how idiotic the plan is. This is why viewers are less than enthusiastic as these episodes go along. 

June has fucked up every step of the way, where has she "excelled?" 

I think they are showing that she's finally learned some things along the way, and also she has finally moved from the selfish goal of just her daughters and herself, to a deeper need, a need to help the rest of them as well.

That girl in the hospital, and her promise to OfMathew, and all that time alone to think brought her to this place.

31 minutes ago, Miles said:

Why wouldn't they, if they can get valuable information form the Waterfords for it? The US government has done waaaay worse for waaaay less.

Sigh, you have a point there, I still think it's a ploy on their part...but yeah.

3 minutes ago, mamadrama said:

Yeah, I've seen nothing to inspire confidence, though that won't matter to the show runners. Super June will probably prevail anyway.

Have I missed something? I don't recall seeing anyone on here saying that the kids were better off staying.

It's a post a few posts up about how hard it will be for those children to be ripped from the only home many remember, and that Canada may not have facilities, etc.

I think all of June's mistakes and selfishness have finally led to a larger goal, and she's made contacts and learned things along the way.  She's not doing this alone, those muffins showed that many share this dream of a bigger "underground railroad."

[jenn31]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

June has fucked up every step of the way, where has she "excelled?" 

I think they are showing that she's finally learned some things along the way, and also she has finally moved from the selfish goal of just her daughters and herself, to a deeper need, a need to help the rest of them as well.

That girl in the hospital, and her promise to OfMathew, and all that time alone to think brought her to this place.

Seriously? That’s the whole point. June excels even when she fucks up. She’s excelled in the showrunners’ eyes time and time again. June will screw up again, get another slew of people killed, yet she’ll still put on her smug face (complete with closeup) and everyone will keep following her as if she could do no wrong. The handmaids and Marthas should have all shunned June by now, but instead they always go along with her inane ideas. They keep writing the same crap over and over and patting their backs with pride. 

I don’t think June has learned anything at all. She has just moved from one half-baked scheme to another.

Edited July 27, 2019 by jenn31

[AnswersWanted]

Frankly the message muffins have done more for the resistance than June ever has. 

What's she's supposedly good at again?

Except for getting people killed. But even then she never seems to get the right people killed nearly as often as the good guys so she cannot exactly brag about that little talent of hers. 

She has garnered zero skills to assist with any rescue mission or escape attempt. And it has nothing to do with lack of opportunities, she's had aplenty of those, she's just spent the majority of this season being a dumb ass because the plot called for it. 

Now the plot calls for her to "get active" and suddenly she's coming up with all the ideas absolutely no one else in Gilead ever could or would. It's total bullshit.

These people SHOULD NOT need her ass, full stop.

If anything, they all know June’s history by now, they should keep her as far away from this operation as humanly possibly. Mrs. Lawrence would be far more helpful and less likely to cause a problem at this point. 

There is no way she knows more about potential escape routes as a handmaid. Her travel is incredibly limited and the Marthas' definitely get out more and get to go much farther. The only routes she even knows about personally came through the help of the others in the resistance, June has no new information to offer them.

Not to mention she already has played her hand with Lawrence, which frankly one would assume would have been taken advantage by now but whatever, June is the only one capable of causing the Gilead Grinch's heart to grow 5 sizes bigger, she's a regular miracle worker...

And even when June was on the run or attempting to escape she had to basically be spoon fed at every step, by Nick, Rita, other resistance members, and Lawrence, they all had to come to her aid.

She has never struck out and managed on her own before, not even once. But she's leading the charge based on what? Her breakdown in the hospital has awaken her inner beasty? 

The writing for this couldn't be any lazier if it tried. 

This plan rests solely on the shoulders of active resistance members and Lawrence, that is it, June has shit all to do with whether they succeed or don't.

Hell, if she intends for them to try and grab Hannah she's actually made it even harder now since she got the friendly Martha murdered and Hannah was relocated.

That means they will have no choice but to spend more time and effort to find her again when, if June hadn't fucked up so badly earlier, Hannah would have been a far easier grab to make.

Unless they're going to have June flat out sacrifice herself (dear god if only...) to create some huge diversion so the group can make a run for it, the best she can offer is an ass ton of glares, sneers, snarls, and fuck 'ems.

This entire season June has been a direct hindrance to the cause, not an asset.

And while the show may want to now tie everything up in a neat little bow and make June out to be this sudden brainiac that has figured out what no one else ever has or would without her precious guidance? Fuck that. 

The story is centered around her solely because that is how the show is written, they write Gilead to exist for June, June doesn't actually exist in Gilead anymore and that is the exact opposite of how Atwood wrote this story. 

What she wrote mirrored realistic world issues both past and present, this show reads like some rando Sci-Fi channel show. 

If Gilead is seriously supposed to be reflecting real life in any way, these writers are truly delusional. 

Just like they had June hand hold Lawrence through the ceremony, she either has to be bullet proof June or June who has all the ideas and experience and plans to save the world.

What she no longer is, imho, is a believable Handmaid, and that was once the whole point. 

Edited July 27, 2019 by AnswersWanted

[Lemons]

37 minutes ago, AnswersWanted said:

Frankly the message muffins have done more for the resistance than June ever has. 

What's she's supposedly good at again?

The story is centered around her solely because that is how the show is written, they write Gilead to exist for June, June doesn't actually exist in Gilead anymore and that is the exact opposite of how Atwood wrote this story. 

I agree, the show is being ruined by June being the sole focus and everyone else revolves around her.  

She's good at nothing.  If she was smart she would have escaped to Canada with her baby and the other one.  Took time to plan going back in with an almost fool proof plan with the help of some of the thousands of Gilead refugees to choose from to help her get her child back.  

[Ashforth]

On 7/24/2019 at 2:52 PM, Ms Blue Jay said:

Can we remove spoilers?

use the "flag" icon below the post to report it to the moderators. Third icon from the left.

[Joana]

If the writers really wanted to go there, then S3 should have started with June returning to Boston determined to get Hannah AND other children out of Gilead. And then the entire season should have been focused on her actively joining the resistance movement and learning from them, making connections, forming alliances, researching the possible escape routes, making difficult decisions (Which child to pick? Which would be too risky?), taking hits in the process and moving on - in short, ACTUAL PLANNING. All that while being smart, keeping a low profile and not drawing unwanted attention to herself, instead of acting like a smug asshole who knows she's protected by plot armour. It might have just worked. 

Now, we have only a few more episodes left to wrap things up and they won't even be entirely devoted to this storyline as we still have Fred/Serena/Baby Nichole/Washington/Canada subplots to attend to, so I really cannot imagine how it's going to be resolved in a remotely satisfactory manner. 

Edited July 27, 2019 by Joana

[Umbelina]

It began with June still only caring about her own child, and intending to find alliances (which she has, mostly due to falling ass-backwards into Lawrence's house.)

She has been trying to learn, from Lawrence, and from his Marthas, but she was still an idiot (the school trip, seriously?) and still only focused on her own child.

Her time in near isolation with the brain dead Natalie, and the numbing horror of going to around 4 executions a week, combined with seeing those poor 12 yeaars olds come in for pelvic exams, already programmed into this "new normal" gave her a new, less selfish goal.  Not just saving her own child, and her own ass, but working with her new allies to form a plan to get all the children out.  Obviously "all" the children can't be rescued, but some can...and that is her new focus, and the new focus of the Martha's and others who have been working to get one person out at a time for so long.

[ferjy]

6 hours ago, mamadrama said:

I don't want the kids in Gilead, but I think this idea is multifaceted when it comes to problems, and I'd like to see the show address this.

Exactly this. It’s like they’re writing a comic book instead of a story for thinking adults. It’s about time they realized the viewers actually have half a brain. Develop your plots please. They come up with a bright (and I use the term loosely) idea but have no idea how to see it through.

[ferjy]

2 hours ago, Joana said:

And then the entire season should have been focused on her actively joining the resistance movement and learning from them, making connections, forming alliances, researching the possible escape routes, making difficult decisions (Which child to pick? Which would be too risky?), taking hits in the process and moving on - in short, ACTUAL PLANNING. All that while being smart, keeping a low profile and not drawing unwanted attention to herself, instead of acting like a smug asshole who knows she's protected by plot armour. It might have just worked. 

How is it that we can all see this and the show runners can’t? They must be blinded by their delusions that the way to go is shock value and a badass hero with untouchable power. And the saddest part is they think that’s what we want and that we’ll root for her, instead of the reality that we’re tired of seeing an unbelievable protagonist and that we’d prefer an interesting developed story rather than needless asinine heroics. 

Edited July 27, 2019 by ferjy

[Trillian]

On 7/14/2019 at 7:08 AM, alexvillage said:

June is messed up because the writers messed her. In the book the character is anyone, a victim of the absurdities of the totalitarian regime. She is also a mystery. The writers in the show just don't know what to do with her, they have no concept of nuance, so the character lacks the same. She is a caricature of the book's character.

I liked the young EM in the West Wing. Small doses of her, her story was cute. When I stopped watching the show on season 5, she was already kind of boring, but that was probably the general failng of the show. I watched the remaining seasons a while after they finished and felt the same meh.

I never watched Mad Men. I am probably the only person who found the show extremely boring. Didn't make it past the first episode and don't even remember much of it. Then I saw EM on Top of the Lake, which I hated. I watched the whole thing out of stubbornness. Her performance was terrible, imo. So I am not impressed.

The fact that she is a cultist makes me very unsympathetic to her. I have seen the stories and the hard choices people who want to leave the cult have to make but I also know that celerities are treated differently. There is no real excuse, with all the information around and the platform she has.

I thought this was such an important an insightful post. I can’t believe it got no response. Maybe it was because it was in the new June thread. There was another post, which I now cannot find, that pointed out that this is the Handmaid’s Tale, not June’s Tale, which I thought was equally insightful.  Kudos to you, poster whom I cannot now find. I gave you a like but I can’t find you again to quote.

I think this latest episode really explifies the issues so many have posted here.  This is not longer Atwood’s Handmaid’s Tale, featuring an anonymous (she didn’t even have a real name) woman in a terrifying new world.  Our June is not afraid of anything - because she knows nothing will happen to her.  She isn’t unafraid of death - she knows she’s the executive producer and will not die. She is the smartest and most capable person around. Even the existing organized resistance bows to her will. No one in the existing resistance ever seems to have considered the possibility of rescuing children. Really? I wanted to slap that maniacal smile off her face as she said the single most obvious thing to people who should realistically have already known it. 

I would so much have preferred that she’s a Katniss Everdeen, co-opted, semi-willingly into an existing resistance movement. June as the saviour isn’t cutting it for me. 

Im not saying this is a bad story. I’m liking it well enough (although I expect to go apoplectic next time they try to get into Canadian law and politics).  But it’s no longer Atwood’s the Handmaid’s Tale and it’s cheap explotation to pretend that it is. 

Edited July 28, 2019 by Trillian
Premature posting

[ElsbethTascioni]

I'm still hate watching over here. I don't care how torn Joseph is about thr ceremony, fuck him. This world exists because od him. Let him suffer. Still doesn't have it was bad as most other people. Same with his wife. She stayed with him knowing exactly what he was. Burn it all down. Janine is the only one who made me feel anything.

[violet and green]

22 hours ago, Joana said:

If the writers really wanted to go there, then S3 should have started with June returning to Boston determined to get Hannah AND other children out of Gilead. And then the entire season should have been focused on her actively joining the resistance movement and learning from them, making connections, forming alliances, researching the possible escape routes, making difficult decisions (Which child to pick? Which would be too risky?), taking hits in the process and moving on - in short, ACTUAL PLANNING. All that while being smart, keeping a low profile and not drawing unwanted attention to herself, instead of acting like a smug asshole who knows she's protected by plot armour. It might have just worked. 

Now, we have only a few more episodes left to wrap things up and they won't even be entirely devoted to this storyline as we still have Fred/Serena/Baby Nichole/Washington/Canada subplots to attend to, so I really cannot imagine how it's going to be resolved in a remotely satisfactory manner. 

Exactly.

If, instead of going for the no doubt exciting to film but mindboggling to watch moment of June getting off the fecking truck, leaving 'Nicole' on it, and glaring demonically with rage into the camera, she'd stayed on board... what a season this might have been.

I feel, 10 whole episodes in, nothing (that makes any sense) has happened. It's been all style over substance, and not even cohesive style. There is no apparent plot; the main characters' motivations make little sense and yet are telegraphed in the most unsubtle manner possible - and Mother of God, whose decision was it to stud the season with innumerable closeups of June gurning angrily, defiantly, disgustedly, etc? Huh? Why? Such a bad decision.

"We haven't got an actual storyline, and we don't know where this thing is going, but ah could ya just glare again, Liz, babe? Oh, that was a scorcher!"

For someone so full of righteous rage, she has done little coherent thinking or planning in the entire season. She has just waltzed about, practically begging to be hung up on the Wall (if only), and this stupid development where she is wiser than all (and yet a total idiot as far as furthering her stated desire to get Hannah out and/or bring Gilead down), and is providing insightful counsel and guidance to all and sundry (ie stating the obvious), argh...

I fully expect, given the way this season has warped the internal universe of the show, Super June to suddenly take off in her plot armor and swoop down out of the sky and snatch Hannah and then fly off at warp speed to safety, at some point. But probably it will just be another three episodes of wandering around sneering.

[Dobian]

The only things June was missing in the opening scene from this week's episode of A Clockwork Handmaiden were a bowler hat and one heavily mascaraed eyelash.

[ElsbethTascioni]

Can someone explain to me why Joseph couldn't just toss off and have June insert his baby batter with her hand? 

[Ashforth]

1 hour ago, ElsbethTascioni said:

Can someone explain to me why Joseph couldn't just toss off and have June insert his baby batter with her hand? 

I had the same thought. At least for the next ceremonies, they can have a turkey baster at the ready.

I was very happy with this episode. I may watch it again. 

[chocolatine]

4 hours ago, ElsbethTascioni said:

Can someone explain to me why Joseph couldn't just toss off and have June insert his baby batter with her hand? 

June was going to be examined by a doctor right after. He'd be able to tell that there hadn't been penetrative sex.

[Nonja]

On 7/24/2019 at 3:25 PM, jenn31 said:

Followed by her... whichever face. The facial expressions have all amalgamated into one in my head at this point. 

Seriously.

[PamelaMaeSnap]

On 7/26/2019 at 6:33 PM, Lemons said:

Then she mentioned one child being in Amherst which means they are scattered over hundreds of miles.

Aren't they in Boston? If so, Amherst is not that far. Less than 100 miles.

[secnarf]

On 7/25/2019 at 12:39 PM, Whimsy said:

That was plan B?  It just looked like a standard pack of birth control pills 

It was. You can take multiple pills of most birth control pills as an emergency contraceptive. The exact number depends on the brand of birth control.

We didn't actually see June take them though. I also was wondering if she would end up pregnant.

I was happy to see the plot actually start to go somewhere. Still think the show needs more Emily and Moira, though.

[AngelaHunter]

On 7/27/2019 at 10:03 PM, Dobian said:

The only things June was missing in the opening scene from this week's episode of A Clockwork Handmaiden were a bowler hat and one heavily mascaraed eyelash.

How true is that? And when she was galumphing through the store, her eyes darting back and forth maniacally, I was wondering when this turned into black comedy. And I often wonder how no guards find it suspicious when two handmaids stand obviously chatting with the fridge doors open and then close them without taking anything.

I truly thought Lawrence's secret was that he's impotent. Even if he's not, the pressure and miserable wailing wife made it hard to imagine how any man - even a young one -  could perform. And doesn't anyone, even a doctor, think about having the handmaids lie on their backs for about an hour after the "Ceremony" (what's in a word? Rape sounds so much more acceptable if given a different and lofty label) with hips elevated to ensure the best chance of pregnancy? It's not rocket science, just gravity. 

I swear I won't complain about anything else if only we could stop spending the majority of the 40 minutes of this show after commercials, on June closeups. I think I know her face better than I know my own by now. 

[Callaphera]

Poor June. June the Martyr, cheerleading the ritualistic rape of herself to bravely save the Lawrences and the Marthas in the house. Poor, brave June, keeping her face forward and staring out with contempt when all the fucking Handmaids had to drop their eyes and look at their feet. Brave, brave June, risking paper-cuts from flipping through all those files - paper-cuts that would no doubt give her away as a closet Reader of Words. Brave, strong June, standing sideways at the freezer doors in the supermarket to talk to her fellow Handmaids when they added extra security to the market and Henchmaid #1 was all, "Dude, heat score much?". 

Poor, brave, strong martyr June, with a half-baked scheme to "get all the children out" which is probably going to result in a lot of dead children, a lot of dead Marthas, and June skipping away, whistlin' Dixie making Indescribable Face #14 (Regret or Trying to Sneak a Fart?) as she avoids punishment.

Brave, brave June. Our hero. 

[SourK]

Serena WHAT. She'd better be tricking Fred somehow. Maybe now that he's important, she's giving him to the Americans so she can leave the country and get her stolen baby back.

I didn't hate this, but my trust with the show is broken, now, so we'll see.

On 7/24/2019 at 1:30 AM, Brn2bwild said:

Also, while the scene with the three handmaids at the freezer section was moving, did anyone else feel like "Noooooooooo, you're being too obvious!"  There's no way the guardians wouldn't suspect them.  But plot armor, I guess.

I think the show has a built-in escape hatch for this issue, in that maybe the guardians are good people who don't want hurt anyone, so they're not, like, actively trying to police very hard -- they just get involved if something super obvious happens and they'd be in trouble if they didn't.

Or maybe there's a really enterprising guard who decided to put a microphone in the freezer. Who knows?

On 7/24/2019 at 4:41 AM, Ariam said:

I hate that it HAD to be Janine’s son who died. And I don’t understand why June had to lie to her. And what’s happy about her son being with a “super nice” commanders wife in Gilead?

If Janine had found out that her son was dead, she might have flipped out and, in the process of flipping out, told everyone the secret plan she had just made (which is a really compelling reason not to include Janine in the secret plan, June). So, it probably seemed safer to tell her that her son was okay, but so far away that he definitely couldn't be part of the escape plan. Telling her he's happy and that his new family is nice to him probably would make her feel better, given that there's nothing she can do for him.

On 7/24/2019 at 4:24 PM, bmoore4026 said:

This episode of The Handmaid's Tale has been brought to you by bread.

"Say it with baked goods."

If you get hungry, can you just ask the Martha network random yes or no questions?

On 7/24/2019 at 11:54 PM, chaifan said:

So here's what I'd love to see (but know won't happen)...  Fred and Comm. Lawrence end up at the Canadian border in a showdown of No!  You can't betray Gilead to save your own ass, I'm going to betray Gilead to save my own ass!  I got here first!  No, I did!  And this goes on as the Canadian border patrol help a bunch of handmaids, marthas and kids out of the (very big) truck, followed by Eleanor.  But as Serena starts to exit, they say "sorry, ma'am, Canada's full".  They shut the doors, shoot Fred, and bring Comm. Lawrence to the Canadian authorities. 

Ugh... as you say this, I think there's a possibility that maybe at the end of this, Lawrence can't make a deal anymore because horrible, horrible Fred gets there first and walks away free. I really hope that doesn't happen.

I wish I had a clearer read on Lawrence's political beliefs. For someone like Serena, I get that she wouldn't want to leave the country and immediately get thrown in jail, because she's okay with at least some parts of Gilead and she's hoping she can carve out a space for herself where she gets the things she wanted. Lawrence seems to think everything's stupid and hate living there, so it's less clear to me why he would choose this horrible life over being a war criminal? Frankly, he's risking execution either way if he's so flippant about resisting everything, so...

[CouchPotatoNoLife]

Can somebody explain to me why Commander Lawrence decided to help found Gilead? Based on what the high Commander (George) said Lawrence was instrumental in founding Gilead. Also before the founding of Gilead they used to be golf buddies.

so far from what I've seen Lawrence is the only one of these commanders that seems to have any genuine affection for his wife. I think one of the major reasons he doesn't like the ceremony is because it hurts his wife.

I just don't get Lawrence. One minute he seems like a decent person. The next minute he seems like a monster. Why has he taken part in running Gilead. Eg. Plotting the military assault on Chicago a few episodes ago.

Does anyone else think Serena is trying to set up Fred? I think Fred managed to charm her back when they were in DC. However she saw how Fred was still obsessed with June and realized everything he told to her in DC was a lie. I think Serena was okay with the ceremony when she believed Fred was just doing the physical act. I think any emotions bother Serena much more. Seeing Fred so preoccupied with June made her realize that all of his words about loving her were lies.

Edited July 29, 2019 by CouchPotatoNoLife

[kieyra]

7 hours ago, CouchPotatoNoLife said:

I just don't get Lawrence. One minute he seems like a decent person. The next minute he seems like a monster. Why has he taken part in running Gilead. Eg. Plotting the military assault on Chicago a few episodes ago.

This show thinks that making the character behave randomly is the same thing as giving a character layers. Plus, they’re hoping that since it’s Bradley Whitford, you won’t notice.

(Oh, and as I’ve said before, one of the show’s key messages is that brutal oppressors are just regular folks with sad flashbacks.)

[Baltimore Betty]

8 hours ago, SourK said:

I hate that it HAD to be Janine’s son who died

That girl cannot catch a break!  She loses and eye, almost gets stoned to death, gets beaten with a can of lobster bisque...June did a nice thing by not telling her something so painful to hear, can you imagine how Janine would become undone? Besides, what could she have done with the knowledge of her child's death? It would be questioned on how she would have found out about that and crazy with grief she might have said June told her.

[Trillian]

8 hours ago, SourK said:

Say it with baked goods."

It’s a Bradley Whitford thing. 

[Ashforth]

I liked that in this episode, we the audience see that June is finally, unquestionably, fully batshit crazy. Her torture in the hospital, and seeing the pubescent girls being prepared to a life of service as babymaking machines, and perhaps Janine pointing out that what happened to Ofmatthew was all her fault, broke her. It isn't that she doesn't give a fuck, she has lost her mind.

Lawrence was also broken while June was in the hospital - but we don't know how. Come on, show. June didn't ask Lawrence or the Martha what happened when she returned to the home stripped of its art, the library dismantled, and Lawrence toeing the line of the leadership? I understand that @Umbelina posted an interview with Feinnes, but I haven't read it, I want that story told to me in the show. Give this a try, showrunners, pretend that your viewer is a captive in an oppressive regime who manages to watch the show but never has access to any of your beloved "extras" or interviews. Tell your story within the confines of the show itself. If you can't do that, you fail as an artist.

Loaves and Fishes: As said before, just BUY SOMETHING out of that freaking refrigerator case! And it is inexplicable that other handmaids would go along with June's plots. When Alma said that June would get herself put on the wall, she should have said "You'll get me put on the wall."

Mrs. Lawrence is a treasure of this show. The rape of her and Lawrence and June by Commander Winslow and the Waterfords was one of the most disturbing and haunting scenes that I have seen in a tv show. June wasn't being a martyr or a hero, imo, in that circumstance she was connecting with Lawrence that they and Eleanor are now all prisoners of the society he helped create and they have to do what it takes to survive. Shoes he has not previously been in even though thousands have died because of his actions.

There's more but I can't think of it right now. I need to go to work LOL.

AHHH we are finally getting another glimpse of the Martha network. Muffins mean yes! Hokey though it was, I liked that ending.

[CouchPotatoNoLife]

7 minutes ago, Ashforth said:

I liked that in this episode, we the audience see that June is finally, unquestionably, fully batshit crazy. Her torture in the hospital, and seeing the pubescent girls being prepared to a life of service as babymaking machines, and perhaps Janine pointing out that what happened to Ofmatthew was all her fault, broke her. It isn't that she doesn't give a fuck, she has lost her mind.

Lawrence was also broken while June was in the hospital - but we don't know how. Come on, show. June didn't ask Lawrence or the Martha what happened when she returned to the home stripped of its art, the library dismantled, and Lawrence toeing the line of the leadership? I understand that @Umbelina posted an interview with Feinnes, but I haven't read it, I want that story told to me in the show. Give this a try, showrunners, pretend that your viewer is a captive in an oppressive regime who manages to watch the show but never has access to any of your beloved "extras" or interviews. Tell your story within the confines of the show itself. If you can't do that, you fail as an artist.

Loaves and Fishes: As said before, just BUY SOMETHING out of that freaking refrigerator case! And it is inexplicable that other handmaids would go along with June's plots. When Alma said that June would get herself put on the wall, she should have said "You'll get me put on the wall."

Mrs. Lawrence is a treasure of this show. The rape of her and Lawrence and June by Commander Winslow and the Waterfords was one of the most disturbing and haunting scenes that I have seen in a tv show. June wasn't being a martyr or a hero, imo, in that circumstance she was connecting with Lawrence that they and Eleanor are now all prisoners of the society he helped create and they have to do what it takes to survive. Shoes he has not previously been in even though thousands have died because of his actions.

There's more but I can't think of it right now. I need to go to work LOL.

AHHH we are finally getting another glimpse of the Martha network. Muffins mean yes! Hokey though it was, I liked that ending.

You make a great point I hadn't fully realized. Lawrence redecorating his house and having to go to meetings shows that he has lost a lot of his previous power within the Boston area. in the past he was so important that he was above a lot of the rules and could hoard art and music. The commanders would also have to go to him.

I guess the implication here is Fred's connection to the high Commander has given him a huge boost in power.

I disagree with another part of your post. I don't fully understand the hesitancy to risk your life for handmaids in this society. Why do they care if they get put on the wall? What part of their life is still worth living? I don't feel this way about any other member of this society, but handmaid's have had their children stolen and are ritualistically raped on a monthly basis and are forced to murder people, who are probably working towards goals they would be sympathetic towards. Eg. Why do they fear the wall? Will they miss the ceremony, participating in executions, the salvagings, the beatings, the torture, never seeing their children, having their future children born of rape and being stolen from them? 

Even if June is going to get them killed, at this point what's the big deal?

[greekmom]

9 hours ago, CouchPotatoNoLife said:

Can somebody explain to me why Commander Lawrence decided to help found Gilead? Based on what the high Commander (George) said Lawrence was instrumental in founding Gilead. Also before the founding of Gilead they used to be golf buddies.

I was thinking Lawrence did it for the environmental impact.  I remember a passing comment he made about the air is cleaner for June's daughter?!  Or am I making that up?

I thought it was Fred and co that made the whole ceremony crap fest to appease the wives that they will be sleeping with other women (the Handmaids).  

[AngelaHunter]

14 minutes ago, Ashforth said:

I want that story told to me in the show. Give this a try, showrunners, pretend that your viewer is a captive in an oppressive regime who manages to watch the show but never has access to any of your beloved "extras" or interviews. Tell your story within the confines of the show itself. If you can't do that, you fail as an artist.

Oh, hell yeah. What is the meaning of this? They do the same on The Walking Dead - give us a show that has us saying, "What? How? WHY?" If you want to know what you just watched, then tune in for the aftershow where it will be explained. Another money grab? Horrible writing? But since they obviously know ahead of time that the show will need explaining, I vote for a money grab. Count me out. I'd rather not know what happened. 

I too was puzzled over what happened in the Lawrence home but since TPTB can't or won't get that across in the body of the episode, fuck it.

[chaifan]

10 hours ago, CouchPotatoNoLife said:

Can somebody explain to me why Commander Lawrence decided to help found Gilead? Based on what the high Commander (George) said Lawrence was instrumental in founding Gilead. Also before the founding of Gilead they used to be golf buddies.

so far from what I've seen Lawrence is the only one of these commanders that seems to have any genuine affection for his wife. I think one of the major reasons he doesn't like the ceremony is because it hurts his wife.

I just don't get Lawrence. One minute he seems like a decent person. The next minute he seems like a monster. Why has he taken part in running Gilead. Eg. Plotting the military assault on Chicago a few episodes ago.

Does anyone else think Serena is trying to set up Fred? I think Fred managed to charm her back when they were in DC. However she saw how Fred was still obsessed with June and realized everything he told to her in DC was a lie. I think Serena was okay with the ceremony when she believed Fred was just doing the physical act. I think any emotions bother Serena much more. Seeing Fred so preoccupied with June made her realize that all of his words about loving her were lies.

We don't know what Lawrence's original motivation for creating Gilead, the colonies, etc. was.  That still has to come out.  We do know he regrets it, at least on some level, and is now just playing along to a certain extent. 

Chicago - if you recall, one commander wanted to just bomb the hell out of the city, and Lawrence was all "no, there are children a viable handmaids there, let's do a more targeted attack".  It was his Schindler's moment.  (Not a great comparison for the character overall, but it works in this instance.)

And yes, I really do think Serena is setting up Fred.  At least I'm hoping that is the case.  I'm tired of him as a character, so I'd like him gone/dead, but have Serena stick around, and this is the only plausible way this could happen.  I posted above, I think the mouth rings were appalling to Serena, and the DC commander's mention that they should do that in Boston has pushed her over the edge.  Serena may be enjoying the privileges of being a wife, but she doesn't buy into the "voluntary" BS about being a handmaid. 

[CouchPotatoNoLife]

31 minutes ago, chaifan said:

We don't know what Lawrence's original motivation for creating Gilead, the colonies, etc. was.  That still has to come out.  We do know he regrets it, at least on some level, and is now just playing along to a certain extent. 

Chicago - if you recall, one commander wanted to just bomb the hell out of the city, and Lawrence was all "no, there are children a viable handmaids there, let's do a more targeted attack".  It was his Schindler's moment.  (Not a great comparison for the character overall, but it works in this instance.)

And yes, I really do think Serena is setting up Fred.  At least I'm hoping that is the case.  I'm tired of him as a character, so I'd like him gone/dead, but have Serena stick around, and this is the only plausible way this could happen.  I posted above, I think the mouth rings were appalling to Serena, and the DC commander's mention that they should do that in Boston has pushed her over the edge.  Serena may be enjoying the privileges of being a wife, but she doesn't buy into the "voluntary" BS about being a handmaid. 

I think you give Serena we way too much credit. She is a villian and for some reason many viewers can't accept that. I think it's because of her physical appearance.

In my interpretation she came back from DC with renewed vigor for Gilead. When she saw all of the children in commander Winslow's family she was convinced. She even says to June at the Lincoln Memorial that she will go back home (meaning the Lawrence household) and they will stay in DC.

I think Fred genuinely tricked her back with his lies in dc. Then she saw how he was still obsessed with June and jealous of Lawrence to such an extent it overrode his cowardice and caused him to challenge Lawrence.

This made her realize her dreams of children and a happy marriage were impossible and caused her switch. To me Serena is an intensely selfish character.

Edited July 29, 2019 by CouchPotatoNoLife

[Umbelina]

3 hours ago, Ashforth said:

Lawrence was also broken while June was in the hospital - but we don't know how. Come on, show. June didn't ask Lawrence or the Martha what happened when she returned to the home stripped of its art, the library dismantled, and Lawrence toeing the line of the leadership? I understand that @Umbelina posted an interview with Feinnes, but I haven't read it, I want that story told to me in the show. Give this a try, showrunners, pretend that your viewer is a captive in an oppressive regime who manages to watch the show but never has access to any of your beloved "extras" or interviews. Tell your story within the confines of the show itself. If you can't do that, you fail as an artist.

Oh, I agree completely with you.   Although I do love my interviews/after the show/commentaries on a bunch of shows, they should never be a sub for what's on screen.

The podcast with Fiennes isn't about that though, or about any  particular episode, he just "spilled" something in passing about his relationship with Lawrence, and about Winslow, while talking about the character of Fred's various rise and fall situations during the seasons.  It touches on his jealousy, and his insecurity, for example, he thinks a pivotal moment in Fred's life was after Serena was shot and she spat at him "Be a MAN!"

It goes on to talk about the rape scene of pregnant June, and how they, as a team/crew gear up for scenes like that, and about playing such a weasley little fuck.

(It's in the media thread by the way, I think it's an Australian team interviewing him IIRC)

3 hours ago, CouchPotatoNoLife said:

You make a great point I hadn't fully realized. Lawrence redecorating his house and having to go to meetings shows that he has lost a lot of his previous power within the Boston area. in the past he was so important that he was above a lot of the rules and could hoard art and music. The commanders would also have to go to him.

I guess the implication here is Fred's connection to the high Commander has given him a huge boost in power.

I disagree with another part of your post. I don't fully understand the hesitancy to risk your life for handmaids in this society. Why do they care if they get put on the wall? What part of their life is still worth living? I don't feel this way about any other member of this society, but handmaid's have had their children stolen and are ritualistically raped on a monthly basis and are forced to murder people, who are probably working towards goals they would be sympathetic towards. Eg. Why do they fear the wall? Will they miss the ceremony, participating in executions, the salvagings, the beatings, the torture, never seeing their children, having their future children born of rape and being stolen from them? 

Even if June is going to get them killed, at this point what's the big deal?

I agree with this completely.  At a certain point, there are things more important than just your own completely miserable life.  For some, they would rather die trying to change things than just stay alive in this horrible system.

3 hours ago, greekmom said:

I was thinking Lawrence did it for the environmental impact.  I remember a passing comment he made about the air is cleaner for June's daughter?!  Or am I making that up?

I thought it was Fred and co that made the whole ceremony crap fest to appease the wives that they will be sleeping with other women (the Handmaids).  

From what I've gathered on the show, Lawrence, a man who seems to live in his head, and has been described as brilliant, wrote a book that became a sort of Bible for a new "economic system" that the organizers of the Coup immediately latched on to, along with Serena's religious fanatic back to the old days/ways popular book.  These were two "foundations" of Gilead.

We learned that Lawrence's included "the colonies" slave/death labor system as well.  We know he was celebrated and honored and I got the idea rather surprised that this theory/system was actually adopted.  Since his was economic, and he doesn't appear to dislike or be threatened by intelligent women, I tend to think that taking about all money and jobs from women was his idea too, but it certainly COULD have been.   I don't know if he had anything at all to do with the creation of handmaids, or the rest of it though.

He is not religious at all that we've seen, so I also doubt he felt "sinners" should be executed or maid into handmaids, or children taken and given to elite families, but again, I can see how those things could work into the economics of Gilead as well.

Was he just another

Spoiler

white supremacist worried that the white race was dying out and

only interested in the birthrate of

Spoiler

white

babies?  That also doesn't sound like him, but the whole slave labor thing could fit in to that somehow, give them a reason to justify genocide, etc.

--

I DO think the show will go into how Fred "rose" and Lawrence "fell" during June's time on her knees at the hospital.  The hints are certainly there with Winslow being in town and chummy with Fred, and with all the modern art gone from Lawrence's house, etc.  I think, and certainly HOPE all of that will play out on screen, and I agree!  I want more answers about Lawrence.

I doubt he had a damn thing to do with that ceremony creation though, and I think the show did make clear that he's never done it, in his 5 years of being in Gilead.

[chaifan]

1 hour ago, CouchPotatoNoLife said:

I think you give Serena we way too much credit. She is a villian and for some reason many viewers can't accept that. I think it's because of her physical appearance.

In my interpretation she came back from DC with renewed vigor for Gilead. When she saw all of the children in commander Winslow's family she was convinced. She even says to June at the Lincoln Memorial that she will go back home (meaning the Lawrence household) and they will stay in DC.

I think Fred genuinely tricked her back with his lies in dc. Then she saw how he was still obsessed with June and jealous of Lawrence to such an extent it overrode his cowardice and caused him to challenge Lawrence.

This made her realize her dreams of children and a happy marriage were impossible and caused her switch. To me Serena is an intensely selfish character.

Oh, I can't say I give Serena "credit" for anything, and I do agree that she's a villian and incredibly "I've got mine, fuck you" selfish.  If she's setting up Fred (I hope!) she's doing it for herself, not for the betterment of Gilead.  I just think she's an interesting character. 

I actually like your interpretation of her motivations, and think that's also highly possible.  And that's what I like about her - either of our takes could end up being right, or a combination of both, or something else altogether.

[chaifan]

Totally unrelated question...  The contemporary, white leather furnished, high rise apartment that they showed Fred, Serena and the DC commander in...  is that Fred & Serena's new home, or the DC commander's apartment?  It is so jarringly out of place amid all the dimly lit Victorian era homes/furnishings.  But it does make Serena's teal outfits pop!

[scrb]

You'd think Lawrence would have gotten one of the Eyes to fuck his handmaids, impregnate one of them.

But I guess the Lawrences were against the ceremony on principle and the forced rapes.

We know he wasn't one of the Commanders involved in coming up with the Ceremony.  I don't know why he wouldn't have defected earlier.

Yes war crimes and all that but the PR value of a top leader of Gilead defecting would be enough.  I don't even think he has to bring children with him and Eleanor but it wouldn't hurt.

How fortunate that he has contraceptives.  Hope some are morning-after pills which are just a high dose of the oral contraceptives.

[Eureka]

1 hour ago, chaifan said:

Totally unrelated question...  The contemporary, white leather furnished, high rise apartment that they showed Fred, Serena and the DC commander in...  is that Fred & Serena's new home, or the DC commander's apartment?  It is so jarringly out of place amid all the dimly lit Victorian era homes/furnishings.  But it does make Serena's teal outfits pop!

I wondered that too but DC has regulations of how tall buildings can be and this one looked taller than I thought it should be. Then again, Gilead may have repealed those. LOL. Yes, I have trouble suspending reality.

[Lemons]

19 hours ago, PamelaMaeSnap said:

Aren't they in Boston? If so, Amherst is not that far. Less than 100 miles.

I assumed the commanders were all located in the close vicinity of Boston. Then she mentions Amherst out in the boondocks so you have to assume children are in other sections too.  I think the summer house one commander had was in New Hampshire or something.   Logistically impossible for them to get all the children out.  

[ferjy]

17 hours ago, Callaphera said:

June, keeping her face forward and staring out with contempt when all the fucking Handmaids had to drop their eyes and look at their feet.

There's so much to complain about, I completely forgot to bring up this scene. Such a WTF moment. How does she get away with such blatant behavior? Was Aunt Lydia's cattle prod at the repair shop?

[AngelaHunter]

6 minutes ago, ferjy said:

There's so much to complain about, I completely forgot to bring up this scene. Such a WTF moment. How does she get away with such blatant behavior?

June didn't even have to clasp her hands in front either, as all the others did. She stood out like a sore thumb, glaring defiantly, hands hanging by her sides, but it's okay because it's June and the rules don't apply to her. 

7 minutes ago, ferjy said:

Was Aunt Lydia's cattle prod at the repair shop?

So it seemed. 🤣

[Callaphera]

10 minutes ago, ferjy said:

There's so much to complain about, I completely forgot to bring up this scene. Such a WTF moment. How does she get away with such blatant behavior? Was Aunt Lydia's cattle prod at the repair shop?

On the one hand, I get it. In a sea of identical red dresses and white caps, how do you make your star actress stand out? In GoT, during the early season scenes at the wall, they put Jon Snow in a black fur cape (thing?) while the rest were in lighter colours. You could always pick him out of the crowd that way. On this show, they have everyone else drop their faces and have June make Indescribable Face #3 (Bitch Face or Did I Turn The Coffee Maker Off When I Left?) while staring straight ahead like she's gonna cut a bitch. In a society where women are supposed to be meek and compliant and look at their damned feet. 

Well, they tried. 

[AngelaHunter]

On a positive note, I do understand June's "coaching' of Joseph. He's probably never raped any of his handmaids and had no intention of doing it this time, had it not been for the doctor checking. June's instruction of (paraphrasing) "Close your eyes. Be someone else doing it. It's not you and it's not me," sounded reasonable since I understand this is a defense used by many who have suffered sexual abuse. They pretend it's not happening to them and leave their bodies, so to speak, just so they can survive mentally. 

[AllyB]

18 hours ago, Ashforth said:

AHHH we are finally getting another glimpse of the Martha network. Muffins mean yes! Hokey though it was, I liked that ending.

This feels like a minor quibble when we have so much to quibble about but I thought it was so, so, so, so stupid that the "scones mean no, muffins mean yes," messaging system hadn't been introduced near the start of the season and been a minor recurring background thing that we'd see every now and then. I'm not going to be awed by baskets and baskets of muffins if right at the start of the scene I have to be told that muffins have a meaning and that the meaning is yes. Especially when we'd only earlier in the episode been told, as a total non sequitur, that scones mean no. It was obvious then that the episode would end with a different delivery meaning yes.

(It's also stupid that the Marthas would communicate this way in the first place. The Marthas don't get to decide to give gifts of baked goods in baskets to other households. At best the Wives and Commanders would see it as potentially problematic if the Martha sent a basket to the house of a Commander/Wife that her Commander/Wife had a problem with or never sent them to the household of a good friend and caused an insult. At worst all but the stupidest of Wives and Commanders would consider it weird and suspicious.)

Edited July 30, 2019 by AllyB

[SourK]

1 hour ago, ferjy said:

There's so much to complain about, I completely forgot to bring up this scene. Such a WTF moment. How does she get away with such blatant behavior? Was Aunt Lydia's cattle prod at the repair shop?

That scene stood out to me, too, mostly because I knew it would bug the forums. 🙂

In all seriousness, it feels like a little bit of lazy directing when that happens -- basically, the show is anticipating that the other actors are going to approach Elizabeth Moss in the scene, so she's already looking up when they do, and nobody thinks about the world building and relationships.

That said, part of me likes the idea that, the longer this particular group of people keeps interacting with each other (June, the Waterfords, Aunt Lydia), the more familiar they get, and the more the boundaries around their interactions get blurred. For example, I kind of like that moment where they see the doctors in the hall, and June goes, "Aunt Lydia?" as if, for a moment, she actually expected Lydia to have her interests in mind and protect her -- much like I liked how June and Serena used to get confused about whether they were friends or not.

But I wish the show were dramatizing that kind of thing more deliberately rather than having the characters act random.

[Ashforth]

46 minutes ago, SourK said:

That said, part of me likes the idea that, the longer this particular group of people keeps interacting with each other (June, the Waterfords, Aunt Lydia), the more familiar they get, and the more the boundaries around their interactions get blurred. For example, I kind of like that moment where they see the doctors in the hall, and June goes, "Aunt Lydia?" as if, for a moment, she actually expected Lydia to have her interests in mind and protect her -- much like I liked how June and Serena used to get confused about whether they were friends or not.

Exactly this. 

Another thing in this episode was Serena feeling so confident that she thought she could participate in a political discussion, only to have Winslow shoot Fred a look - who does this mere woman think she is? Serena quickly realized her mistake and backed off - no losing another body part this time.  And even though she seemed fine beforehand with "bearing witness to the Ceremony," she was obviously not fine with it afterward.

Serena approaching Fred with a demand for Nicole's return and dropping the American spy/satellite phone bomb was out of the blue because there is SO MUCH we haven't seen. But, like June, she's reaching or has reached her breaking point with Gilead.

[Ashforth]

8 hours ago, chaifan said:

Totally unrelated question...  The contemporary, white leather furnished, high rise apartment that they showed Fred, Serena and the DC commander in...  is that Fred & Serena's new home, or the DC commander's apartment?  It is so jarringly out of place amid all the dimly lit Victorian era homes/furnishings.  But it does make Serena's teal outfits pop!

I got the idea that it was the Waterford's swanky new digs, but who knows?

Maybe they're staying there with Winslow, Serena has her own room and Fred shares a bed with the High (and hard) Commander.

Edited July 30, 2019 by Ashforth

[PamelaMaeSnap]

7 hours ago, Lemons said:

I assumed the commanders were all located in the close vicinity of Boston. Then she mentions Amherst out in the boondocks so you have to assume children are in other sections too.  I think the summer house one commander had was in New Hampshire or something.   Logistically impossible for them to get all the children out

It makes me wonder (idly) what, if any, kind of oversight was made (as in overseeing things, not as in missing them) in terms of where commanders who had families (i.e., young children) lived. Were they required to stay in Boston? Were they given outposts such as Amherst, et al? Did they indeed have houses on the lake so they could have almost normal lives? Were these the "lesser" commanders perhaps? 

I confess to having a more personal curiosity, having lived in Amherst for four years and thinking that in ANY society I'd rather live there than almost anywhere else in the world (okay, Anguilla might edge it out, as would a cute little place in Kitsilano if it was given to me for free). 

[mamadrama]

1 hour ago, Ashforth said:

I got the idea that it was the Waterford's swanky new digs, but who knows?

Maybe they're staying there with Winslow, Serena has her own room and Fred shares a bed with the High (and hard) Commander.

Is it wrong that I'd watch the hell out of THAT show?

[AllyB]

15 hours ago, chaifan said:

The contemporary, white leather furnished, high rise apartment that they showed Fred, Serena and the DC commander in...  is that Fred & Serena's new home, or the DC commander's apartment?  It is so jarringly out of place amid all the dimly lit Victorian era homes/furnishings. 

I was under the impression that it was their hotel/temporary accommodation for their visit to Boston.

[Ashforth]

14 hours ago, AllyB said:

This feels like a minor quibble when we have so much to quibble about but I thought it was so, so, so, so stupid that the "scones mean no, muffins mean yes," messaging system hadn't been introduced near the start of the season and been a minor recurring background thing that we'd see every now and then. I'm not going to be awed by baskets and baskets of muffins if right at the start of the scene I have to be told that muffins have a meaning and that the meaning is yes. Especially when we'd only earlier in the episode been told, as a total non sequitur, that scones mean no. It was obvious then that the episode would end with a different delivery meaning yes.

(It's also stupid that the Marthas would communicate this way in the first place. The Marthas don't get to decide to give gifts of baked goods in baskets to other households. At best the Wives and Commanders would see it as potentially problematic if the Martha sent a basket to the house of a Commander/Wife that her Commander/Wife had a problem with or never sent them to the household of a good friend and caused an insult. At worst all but the stupidest of Wives and Commanders would consider it weird and suspicious.)

So much logic! Which clearly has no place anywhere near this show! LOL

The Martha's have to communicate somehow. They can't pass notes, so sharing baked goods among households could make sense. Not the massive, "I spent $100 at Whole Foods" baskets, but a couple of muffins for the Mr. & Mrs.

Of course, that could lead to the question of why all of the Marthas are making scones. Or muffins. Or cinnamon rolls. 

mmmmm cinnamon rolls.