Book vs. Series: On The Shelf

[Artsda]

16 hours ago, bijoux said:

Eloise would be ready to cut a bitch, but then able to step back and enjoy the show once she saw what Kate was made of. 

I'd love to see her added to the game, she'd be ruthless. I think they need to keep Simon, his one-liners and reaction to the family are so needed to break up the battle. 

[Gwendolyn]

6 hours ago, RachelKM said:

I don't like what Penelope did.  But there were no good options. Possibly Pen could have chosen a better one. But she's a 17 year old girl with only one certain hand to play. 

Penelope's character was sacrificed to the alter of inconsistent characterization and adding the Marina subplot.

For inconsistent characterization, she's made her debut, is supposed to be on the marriage mart, but like all good girls naive about where babies come from (clearly none of these girls when in the country spent a lot of time watching the barnyard animals), yet it's revealed she's Lady Whistledown, so all the sexual innuendo makes it seem like she should know. I'm theorizing all of Lady Whistledown's sex talk was what Pen overheard and not conveyed with full understanding of what she was repeating. I figure they revealed she was Lady Whistledown just in case the show didn't get a second season, just wrap up those loose ends. Now they're going to have to work overtime to win back viewer's sympathies.

Then there's the fact they brought Marina's story from book 5 (where she's just Sir Phillip's backstory) and to jam it in mucked everything else up. I get wanting to show how hard it was for women in 1813, how few options they had and how they had to manipulate the marriage mart for security. Marina was naive in the way that teenagers are, that she knew best, until the reality of her situation hit her with the forged letter. She did turn down opportunities to wed nice young men while she could still pass off George's child and while Lady Featherington seemed cruel, she was right that marrying Marina off to an older man desperate for an heir, who would overlook a 6 month baby, and who would probably leave her a well off widow with an heir to a title. Marina as a young woman didn't see that as an opportunity, so she looked for someone she could build a life with and zeroed in on Colin.

Which led to Pen at the end of her ropes (she did try to warn off Colin vaguely and she proved to Marina that George hadn't dumped her by letter), so she probably did think all that was left was Lady Whisteldown to ensure that no one thought Colin had impregnated and abandoned Marina and to stop the marriage. She clearly wasn't thinking it through as it ruined her as well. They didn't need to do this. They didn't need to out Lady Whistledown like this. They could've had the Featherington's ostracized for other reasons or had Marina back out of the engagement for reasons.

If they hadn't been trying preserve future story options for book 5 and had created a character out of thin air, then they could've married Marina off to anyone (instead of finding story reasons she couldn't marry until Sir Phillip shows up), and let Pen use her alter ego to help. Or better yet not feel the need to out Pen as Lady Whistledown and not use this story as Pen was the only one who knew about Marina, so once it was outed she was with child it narrowed down who the gossip was.

So now we know who Lady Whistledown is early, mucked up with Pen and Colin as characters and how horrible will it be if we get to Eloise's story and learn Marina's fate after knowing her as this passionate young woman? I get they only were guaranteed one season, but they didn't think ahead.

 

[quarks]

On 12/27/2020 at 4:01 PM, ursula said:

 That the Fs eventually relied on Marina’s marriage to Crane to fix their financial quandary and not on the generosity of their cousins, the wealthy Thompsons. 

 

Late to this, but my impression from the show was that neither the Fs nor the Thompsons got any money from Sir Phillip Crane?

That sudden influx of cash came from Lord Featherington wagering the deed to the house on a fixed boxing match, not from Sir Philip. Lady F definitely wanted Marina to get married, but to help Marina, not the Fs finances - and, yes, try to keep the family out of scandal, an attempt which massively flopped. 

[ursula]

2 hours ago, quarks said:

Late to this, but my impression from the show was that neither the Fs nor the Thompsons got any money from Sir Phillip Crane?

 

Mrs F about Sir Phillip: “he has a perfectly adequate estate to support you and perhaps your distant cousins as well.”

As Marina’s husband, and a man who clearly takes family responsibilities seriously, Sir Crane will be partly responsible for the welfare of Marina’s now-poor cousins, much as Marina herself was the Fs’s poor cousins before their fortunes reversed. My point was that if Marina’s own family were rich - this whole discussion was about Marina’s social and economic class - Mrs F would have brought that up since  as you can see here, she’s not shy about taking advantage of wealthy connections. 

 

Edited December 30, 2020 by ursula

[bijoux]

Some posts in an episode thread got me thinking about possible illegitimate children for the series hero(s). And Benedict instantly popped to mind. He and Madame Delaxrois seem to have a decent thing going for them. If she ended up pregnant, I can easily see him taking care of the child. And since Sophie is illegitimate, this could add to their future story. Of which there isn't much in the book as far as I'm lead to believe. So the writers could go with Sophie being treated badly in her position to an ending with Benedict's kid being accepted and loved in their home. I know from Eloise's book that they have three sons. One of them could be one Benedict gets in this relationship. 

[quarks]

9 hours ago, ursula said:

Mrs F about Sir Phillip: “he has a perfectly adequate estate to support you and perhaps your distant cousins as well.”

As Marina’s husband, and a man who clearly takes family responsibilities seriously, Sir Crane will be partly responsible for the welfare of Marina’s now-poor cousins, much as Marina herself was the Fs’s poor cousins before their fortunes reversed. My point was that if Marina’s own family were rich - this whole discussion was about Marina’s social and economic class - Mrs F would have brought that up since  as you can see here, she’s not shy about taking advantage of wealthy connections. 

 

Key word there, perhaps.

There is no indication on the show that Sir Philip has handed over any money so far. Not to say that he won't in the future, just that he hasn't so far - and even Lady F doesn't say that he will. Just that he might. 

You've asked us to pay attention to canon, so that's what I'm doing here. Your statement was that the Fs "relied" on Marina's marriage to help them out financially - but that's not what happened on the show. (And in the books, of course, Marina isn't related to the Fs at all and has no reason to help them out at all.) Lady F might be hoping - the same way that she's hoping that cheese guy might return - but she's not counting/relying on the Sir Philip, and neither is her maid/housekeeper or the rest of the Fs. Nor, for that matter, are the two betting guys, who never say, wait, Sir Philip will come to the aid of his distant cousins! Instead they're all like, we have got to get our cash back before that cheating Lord F spends it. And they do - leaving the Fs without cash on hand, and about to lose their house to the new heir, who, based on Lady F's expression in her final scene, is probably not overly inclined to help out the Fs.

If anything, the Fs all seem to be considerably worse off financially at the end of the season despite Marina's marriage, plus still touched by scandal - all made worse by the fact that they no longer have the financial resources to cover up that scandal. 

[ursula]

31 minutes ago, quarks said:

You've asked us to pay attention to canon, so that's what I'm doing here. Your statement was that the Fs "relied" on Marina's marriage to help them out financially - but that's not what happened on the show.

Again this point came up in an argument about Marina’s family economic status. I was pointing out that Mrs F was relying on the Cranes to extend his generosity to Marina’s poor cousins as opposed to Marina’s family themselves.

On my phone so I can’t do quotes so I’ll copy them out in italics:

I’ll just go with what we’re presented. That Marina and Mrs F repeatedly refer to a status gap. That Mrs F felt she had the power to “stop” Marina’s season by just sending her away. That her family didn’t have enough power or influence to “fix” the George problem. That the Fs eventually relied on Marina’s marriage to Crane to fix their financial quandary and not on the generosity of their cousins, the wealthy Thompsons. 
 

And just a few comments above:
 

My point was that if Marina’s own family were rich - this whole discussion was about Marina’s social and economic class - Mrs F would have brought that up since  as you can see here, she’s not shy about taking advantage of wealthy connections. 

Obviously it hasn’t yet happened in the show as Marina’s decision to marry him and then literally riding off with Crane were the Fs’ last scenes of the season. It is a realistic expectation based on both norms and what we’ve seen of Phillip’s character. There are no downsides to a wealthy in law. 
 

But again the point being made here is that Mrs F expected a generosity from a brand new in law that she didn’t from Marina’s family and that only makes sense if Marina’s family were less well off in status and finances than the Fs. I literally don’t know how else to explain this.

 

 

Edited December 30, 2020 by ursula

[RachelKM]

1 hour ago, ursula said:

But again the point being made here is that Mrs F expected a generosity from a brand new in law that she didn’t from Marina’s family and that only makes sense if Marina’s family were less well off in status and finances than the Fs. I literally don’t know how else to explain this.

There was never any expectation of Marina's family for a number of reasons.  First, initially, Lady F was unaware of the state of her own family's finances and would not have thought a country gentleman distant cousin would have anything to advantage her in that circumstance.  Later, when she realizes they are broke and her daughters' dowries are gone, she also learns that Marina's father has already lent them money which is why she cannot send Marina back to her father.  It would be bizarre and extremely optimistic for Lady F to think he would consider supporting them when he was already forcing Lord F's hand in such a way.

They have no such history with Sir Philip. And Sir Philip is a Sir.  A Sir with money will always be > a Mister with money as connections go. If nothing else, there is a possibility of Marina attending balls with a higher level of connections. There is little possibility of that from a country gentleman who it appears does not come to London to the point that he evaded the entire season even with his own daughter's come out.

[JunebugWA]

Of all the characters from book to show, I am most disappointed with Colin. Book Colin is charming, witty, and a hoot. Show Colin, so far, is very dull. Maybe it is the writer's fault. Maybe it is the actor's. I was really looking forward to seeing Colin on show and quite disappointed. Benedict, boring in books, is more charming and witty in the show. The Viscount Who Loved Me was my favorite of the books, so hopefully we can have S2 so I can see it alive - providing that they will not deviate much from the book. 

Edited December 30, 2020 by JunebugWA

[Atlanta]

49 minutes ago, JunebugWA said:

Of all the characters from book to show, I am most disappointed with Colin. Book Colin is charming, witty, and a hoot. Show Colin, so far, is very dull. Maybe it is the writer's fault. Maybe it is the actor's. I was really looking forward to seeing Colin on show and quite disappointed. Benedict, boring in books, is more charming and witty in the show. The Viscount Who Loved Me was my favorite of the books, so hopefully we can have S2 so I can see it alive - providing that they will not deviate much from the book. 

And brutal Pall Mall and The Mallet of Death. 😁

[bijoux]

I went to check the excerpt from The Duke and I on Quinn's website, mostly because I wanted to see info about Whistledown, but Anthony and Daphne turned up to be much more interesting to me. 

After nearly two seasons in London... 

... 

Thus far, four men had asked for her hand, but when Daphne had thought about living her days in their company, she just couldn’t do it. There were a number of men she thought might make reasonably good husbands, but the problem was — none of them was interested.

So Daphne had gottwn marriage offers but refused tham, and as we see below, with Anthony’s full blessing. 

Simon... chose to ask, “Has she had any offers, then?”

“A few. I’ve let her refuse them all.”

“That’s rather indulgent of you.” Anthony shrugged. “Love is probably too much to hope for in a marriage these days, but I don’t see why she shouldn’t be happy with her husband. We’ve had offers from two men old enough to be her father, one who is a bit too high in the instep for our often boisterous clan, and then this week, one who was perfectly amiable, but a rather bit dim in the head.”

“Not many brothers would allow their sister such latitude,” Simon said quietly.

Anthony just shrugged again, as if he couldn’t imagine treating his sister in any other way. “She’s been a good sister to me. It’s the least I can do.”

I definitely like this better in the book. 

As for Whistledown, this is the early business model. 

 The mysterious newspaper had arrived on the doorstep of every member of the ton three months earlier. For two weeks it was delivered unbidden every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. And then, on the third Monday, butlers across London waited in vain for the pack of paperboys who normally delivered Whistledown, only to discover that instead of free delivery, they were selling the gossip sheet for the outrageous price of five pennies a paper.

 

Three months earlier would have been in March. The book starts in June. I only point this out because the Season starts in April if I remember my histocal romances lessons correctly. So if this is Daphne's second season, it could at most be Penelope's first. 

 

 

[Featherhat]

Thanks for that @bijoux Nigel is the one that's amiable enough but too dim for Daphne. He's not a harasser or attacker as in the series even though he doesn't take one no for an answer, he's more pathetic than a threat. He probably works well with the lady he ends up with.

 I like that exchange because he wants Daphne to get married and feels responsibility but he's not pushing her into a match against her will or openly scaring suitors away even though Simon thinks three older brothers doesn't help Daphne's cause with some of them. 

I think it fits better with the uneasy psyche of a man who is torn between responsibility, really is close to his family, worshiping his dead father and his absolute certainty that he doesn't have a long life ahead of him. 

It was Penelope's first season in 1813 and she later she laments to Kate that along with everything else she was *fat* and needed an extra year to really grow into a young woman and not a girl with puppy fat but her mother forced her out to get a head start at 17. They commiserate about unflattering clothes and the painful experiences of being an overlooked wallflower. 

Edited December 30, 2020 by Featherhat

[bijoux]

🤦‍♀️Of course it's Penelope's first season. I forgot she mentions that to Kate and I read that book two or three days ago. 

[quarks]

 

Quote

But again the point being made here is that Mrs F expected a generosity from a brand new in law that she didn’t from Marina’s family and that only makes sense if Marina’s family were less well off in status and finances than the Fs. I literally don’t know how else to explain this.

Well, again, she doesn't expect any generosity from Sir Philip. At all. She says "might," not "expects" or "relies."

But Lady F does have a very good reason to assume that the Thompsons - regardless of their economic/social status - will not be very generous:

She knows the Fs still owe the Thompsons money as it is.

That's why Marina is with the Fs in the first place, instead of with another family (or her own family.) It was meant as partial repayment for that loan, which was large enough that even after discovering Marina's pregnancy, the Fs could not send her back, and had to risk - and suffer - major scandal. With Lord F now murdered and the cash stolen/retrieved, the Thompsons now really have no hope of getting paid back. And far from getting repaid for that loan by seeing their daughter properly launched into society, they saw their daughter embroiled in major scandal within months of arriving at the Fs - a scandal that nearly got the Fs thrown out of society, even though they weren't even at the center of it, which doesn't bode well for the Thompsons should they ever try to come to London and to the balls. And as far as we could see, the Fs never once tried to inform the Thompsons about what was going on, or issue some sort or warning/hint. 

We don't, granted, have all that much information about the specific financial status of the Thompson family, though indications are that they are at least well off, even if Daddy Thompson isn't a baron. (After all, Marina gets a lot of suitors, more so at one point than the obviously wealthy daughter of a viscount Daphne, so not only can the Thompsons lend money to the Fs, they can - apparently - give their daughter some sort of dowry. Which is to say, they seem to have some disposable income.) But regardless of their financial status, why on earth would the Thompsons be interested in lending the Fs any more money at this point? 

[Atlanta]

I wonder if they will have the actress who plays Pen lose weight? In the second book, she said she lost 2 stone which is 28 lbs though she's still, unforunately, in yellow.

[scarynikki12]

1 hour ago, Atlanta said:

I wonder if they will have the actress who plays Pen lose weight? In the second book, she said she lost 2 stone which is 28 lbs though she's still, unforunately, in yellow.

I can't see Nicola Coughlan going along with that. I'm wondering if they padded her to later show Pen's weight loss without forcing Nicola to do the same. If they haven't padded her then my guess is that they'll just dress her in more flattering styles to either give the illusion of weight loss or to just maker her more attractive as she already is.

[Mellowyellow]

Which book should I read next? I read book two and LOVED LOVED LOVED IT!!!

I don't need to read them in order so hoping for a recommendation. Something as fun as book 2. I loved Kate, Edwina and Mary!

[bijoux]

My personal favorite is To Sir, Phillip with Love. There are certainly fun bits, certainly when all four Bridgerton boys storm the castle and Eloise's show downs with the twins, but what I most love about it is how it pulls on the heartstrings. I don't know how it will read after watching the show's version of Marina’s story. 

I don't really remember much about it, but I seem to recall Hyacinth's book, number seven, being pretty light hearted. And it should feature plenty of Lady Danburry, because the hero is her grandson. 

[Featherhat]

3 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

Which book should I read next? I read book two and LOVED LOVED LOVED IT!!!

I don't need to read them in order so hoping for a recommendation. Something as fun as book 2. I loved Kate, Edwina and Mary!

Hmm. Well Benedict's is a Cinderella story and deals quite well with some class and illegitimacy issues as well as gets pretty angsty and emotional.  

As @bijoux says Eloise's actually has some great Bridgerton family interaction and deals with loss, mental health and children in a kind of period way. But be warned it might be jarring having watched the show version of Marina. 

Hycanith's is a treasure hunt and fairly light hearted. 

Gregory's is quite melodramatic and OTT although I do like his heroine.

Francesca's is often a popular one, dealing with a Bridgerton who's happily ever after comes with her *second* marriage and involves cousin swapping and grief. 

Colin and Pelenope's deals with a lot of Whistledown issues and you get a better look at the Featheringtons  and what it means to not be a Diamond or get married your first 3 seasons out and a Colin character study. 

I'm almost tempted to suggest that you might like the Bevelstoke series (books 2 and 3 are way better than 1) which are a lot of fun as well "What Happens in London" and "10 Things I love About You". I think you'd like Sebastian Grey as a character.

But knowing what you've said you like from the Arrow board I think you could find a lot to enjoy about any one of them, although the first half of the series has better writing in general than the last couple of books IMO. 

Edited December 31, 2020 by Featherhat

[Scatterbrained]

I thought the show seemed garish.  The fabrics and jewelry seemed cheap (Claire’s collab?), ballrooms seemed cramped, people’s facial expressions seemed pinched (angry Legos!), the sex scenes were like PG-13 pornos with frenetic thrashing about and gasping (like fish on land).  I also didn’t like all the smoking (tobacco company $?).

UGH!!!

[scarynikki12]

3 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

Which book should I read next? I read book two and LOVED LOVED LOVED IT!!!

I don't need to read them in order so hoping for a recommendation. Something as fun as book 2. I loved Kate, Edwina and Mary!

After 4 (Colin and Penelope) I only remember Francesca and Gregory’s stories. Hers includes a second marriage to her late husband’s cousin Michael who has been in love with her since they met. He didn’t pursue out of love for his cousin and respect for their relationship. Gregory seemingly falls in love at first sight with a pretty face but gets to know her cousin/friend (drawing a blank) Lucy along the way and then drama ensues as he realizes his real feelings. I read Eloise and Hyacinth but cannot tell you a single thing about their books.

[pigs-in-space]

8 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

Which book should I read next? I read book two and LOVED LOVED LOVED IT!!!

I don't need to read them in order so hoping for a recommendation. Something as fun as book 2. I loved Kate, Edwina and Mary!

If you liked those three characters, I feel like you might really dig The Duchess Deal or The Governess Game by Tessa Dare. I don't know exactly why but something about that trio (plus Newton) reminds me of the shenanigans in those two (especially the latter).

Personally book 2 in the Bridgertons was the only one of the series I liked. Books 3 and 4 I managed to finish but they weren't my faves. I do like her prequel series of the Bridgertons though. Haven't read the latest but the rest were all enjoyable.

[ouinason]

The prequel books for the Bridgertons are quite good, even if the later books of the main series sort of drop off in awesome.

[Gwendolyn]

3 hours ago, ursula said:

I’ve seen enough book fans complaining about the Marina expose to believe that it’s really not just about residual fondness for book Penelope but the idea that Penelope being fat - and perceived as less attractive than Marina*, she’s automatically the underdog. 

Re-reading The Viscount Who Loved Me, Pen doesn't stay fat (Pen tells Kate she lost 28 lbs), so as a book reader this isn't a case of fat girls sticking together. She does stay short though. And she's the under dog because she's Lady F's daughter and Lady F is making it harder for her daughters to find husbands by not having a clue how they look in the clothes she picks or how she talks about them and to others.

In the book she's a different character, the show did her a dirty with the Lady Whistledown reveal here.  The writers set the character up to fail. I get I'm coming from the POV of a middle aged white lady, so I have a different perspective to both book and show Pen than @ursula, who's opinion really has made me think about this show and how they're writing this character.

I do not think Lady Whistledown is evil or that Pen is a sociopath, but the writers have set her up to fail.

First they bring forward a character from book 5 and throw story blockades here to keep that story in tact. Marina could've accepted a proposal from about 20 guys based on the scenes in ep one, guys as young, hot, and rich as Colin, but nooooooo plot reasons she wouldn't give them the time of day. Then Lady F discovers she's not having her monthly (women weren't regular back then due to diet, hell women aren't regular now. All Marina had to do was tell the Lady F when she accused her of having a bun in the oven, she wasn't regular and bought herself another 6 wks).  So Lady F tries to force her to marry old fogies to get her out of the house, again Marina rebels for plot reasons. Finally realizing the secret is about to be obvious (umm...empire waist gowns seem ideal for hiding a growing bump) the writers have her zone in on Colin. Why? Because it's the one person Pen would care about. The one person Lady W would out Marina's secret for.

So the writers could say "look we laid out clues about who could be Lady Whistledown".

Secondly, to preserve book continuity, Marina cannot marry anyone until Sir Phillip shows up, so they were not going to let her marry Colin and sacrificed Pen/Lady W to that necessity. If they were going to basically create a character out of thin air, why choose one that is part of another character's future (in this case Eloise). Just create one. Book Marina isn't related to the Featheringtons (who are also not titled in the books, so no better than Marina, so why are they adding that extra class level here? Again making Pen look worse). Book Marina is white, so if they wanted to tell a story about race here, create a character where you can explore that without the weight of the books future continuity driving the story decisions.

My question is why didn't someone in the writer's room or in casting note the optics of these decisions and how they would affect viewers opinions of the characters and make the writers stretch? Come up with a way to out Pen in season 1 in case the show flopped and there was no season 2 that doesn't make her a total Karen (or better yet, just leave Lady W a mystery, unless there was a 4 book deal, even the author wasn't guaranteed Pen would've been outed in the series). Create a new character for Ruby Barker to rock and address the issues about race, unwed mothers in the Regency.

Or better yet, preserve book Lady W who doesn't punch down. She only gossips about the rich and privileged in the books and I don't remember her destroying anyone's life in the books, instead she just puts in writing, with full names, what everyone is already talking about.  Here she ruins Marina and sends Lord Berbank running. The writers of the series need to decide if they want Pen to be likeable and course correct or do they want to make her evil and then how they going to justify her HEA with Colin? 

 

[bijoux]

14 hours ago, pigs-in-space said:

If you liked those three characters, I feel like you might really dig The Duchess Deal or The Governess Game by Tessa Dare. I don't know exactly why but something about that trio (plus Newton) reminds me of the shenanigans in those two (especially the latter).

If we're talking Tessa Dare, I remember A Week to Be Wicked as immensely fun. So much fun that I could accept the super tight time frame. This puts me in mind of Meredith Duran's Wicked Becomes You, which shares the premise falling for your older brother's BFF, and Loretta Chase's Mr. Impossible, which is sort of like The Mummy in book form squared. I cannot recommend it enough. 

[Brn2bwild]

On 12/30/2020 at 11:15 AM, JunebugWA said:

Of all the characters from book to show, I am most disappointed with Colin. Book Colin is charming, witty, and a hoot. Show Colin, so far, is very dull. Maybe it is the writer's fault. Maybe it is the actor's. I was really looking forward to seeing Colin on show and quite disappointed. Benedict, boring in books, is more charming and witty in the show. The Viscount Who Loved Me was my favorite of the books, so hopefully we can have S2 so I can see it alive - providing that they will not deviate much from the book. 

I've tried to read all the posts in this thread in order to make sure my question hasn't been answered, so hopefully this isn't redundant.  But in the books, are Benedict and Colin going into the army/navy or the Church?  It's strange to me that the younger 20-something brothers of a viscount would be allowed to just hang around the house and suck up family money instead of being pushed to make their own way in the world.  In real life, it seems like Anthony would have pushed them out, given them an allowance, and told them they had to find careers.

[EyewatchTV211]

13 hours ago, Gwendolyn said:

Re-reading The Viscount Who Loved Me, Pen doesn't stay fat (Pen tells Kate she lost 28 lbs), so as a book reader this isn't a case of fat girls sticking together. She does stay short though. And she's the under dog because she's Lady F's daughter and Lady F is making it harder for her daughters to find husbands by not having a clue how they look in the clothes she picks or how she talks about them and to others.

In Romancing Mister Bridgerton, Pen says she lost nearly two stone, but she still describes herself as not being thin. She "...could now call herself 'pleasantly rounded' rather than a 'hideous pudge.' She was still nowhere near the slender ideal of womanhood that ruled the day..." So I guess people could still say that they relate to her because of that. I didn't see that many people using her weight as an excuse, though. I relate to book Penelope more primarily due to personality traits and also somewhat to my own physical insecurity that isn't related to weight but to other aspects of my appearance. Speaking for myself, I would put myself in the boat that someone else on this thread (or maybe the Lady W thread) already described - I still see it more as me supporting book Penelope, who I see as true canon, and being disappointed that the show messed that up as opposed to me just excusing show Penelope because she's fat. And suspecting that the show creators didn't realize that they messed her up and probably weren't intending to. 

55 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

I've tried to read all the posts in this thread in order to make sure my question hasn't been answered, so hopefully this isn't redundant.  But in the books, are Benedict and Colin going into the army/navy or the Church?  It's strange to me that the younger 20-something brothers of a viscount would be allowed to just hang around the house and suck up family money instead of being pushed to make their own way in the world.  In real life, it seems like Anthony would have pushed them out, given them an allowance, and told them they had to find careers.

I remembered this being referenced in Colin/Penelope's book and went back to check. In the books, Colin does in fact spend a lot of time traveling, as he heads off to do after season 1 of the show. It isn't spurred by the events of the show, but he does travel. When he returns in the book, there's exploration of his seeming "need" to travel and difficulty staying home for long periods of time and not knowing exactly why. There's one section that says, "Every now and then, he simply had to get away. There was no other way to describe it. Away from the ton, who thought him a charming rogue and nothing else, away from England, which encouraged younger sons to enter the military or the clergy, neither of which suited his temperament." So I think he doesn't want to do those things and is able to get away with not doing those things because the family is well off enough that he doesn't have to and is more understanding of his choices than the typical family like theirs might be. They just want him to be happy. Colin is trying to figure out his path. And as the show has already started showing with Benedict, he is able to find his path with his art. 

[Artsda]

14 hours ago, Gwendolyn said:

She only gossips about the rich and privileged in the books and I don't remember her destroying anyone's life in the books, instead she just puts in writing, with full names, what everyone is already talking about.  Here she ruins Marina and sends Lord Berbank running. The writers of the series need to decide if they want Pen to be likeable and course correct or do they want to make her evil and then how they going to justify her HEA with Colin? 

 

It going to seem like rewarding her public outing of Marina and sending her to the point of making tea for abort the child if she gets Colin in the end.  She shouldn't get Colin. I don't want to see her mother get what she plotted for either, someone in her home married to a Bridgerton to pay off their debts.

This version of LW has contempt against her from the town, even Simon. I can't see anyone clapping for her outing either like what happens in the books. I don't want to see any Featherington+Marina win.

They've done a lot of damage to Colin too  with this Marina plot too that, they inserted this daytime soap who is the daddy type plot to make him look like a fool who is only spared through Penn's outting of Marina. 

The whole Marina plot never should have happened. They took Eloise's story and a small backstory and turned it into something that wasn't needed and just did more damage.

[bijoux]

1 hour ago, Brn2bwild said:

I've tried to read all the posts in this thread in order to make sure my question hasn't been answered, so hopefully this isn't redundant.  But in the books, are Benedict and Colin going into the army/navy or the Church?  It's strange to me that the younger 20-something brothers of a viscount would be allowed to just hang around the house and suck up family money instead of being pushed to make their own way in the world.  In real life, it seems like Anthony would have pushed them out, given them an allowance, and told them they had to find careers.

Neither of them does that. Papa Bridgerton had provided financial security for his younger sons as well, so there isn't a pressing need for them to do it. It was Colin who felt lost and aimless eatching Anthony do his viscount business and Benedict flourishing as an artist. Having never read Benedict's book, I don't know what his feelings were on the matter. 

ETA: Does anyone recall why Daphne and Simon return to the city in the book? I seem to vaguely recall that they do, but it couldn't have been for the same reason, since there was no scandal involving Colin and a girl he proposed to. 

Edited January 1, 2021 by bijoux

[Artsda]

31 minutes ago, bijoux said:

 

ETA: Does anyone recall why Daphne and Simon return to the city in the book? I seem to vaguely recall that they do, but it couldn't have been for the same reason, since there was no scandal involving Colin and a girl he proposed to. 

I think it was Simon leaves her after the drunken night for one of his other estates. So she then leaves  for London to be near her family.  Then he comes to her in London.

I wonder why the ending baby birth scene had the boy be first? As opposed to the book, where they had the 3 girls first. 

Edited January 1, 2021 by Artsda

[bijoux]

5 minutes ago, Artsda said:

 

I wonder why the ending baby birth scene had the boy be first? As opposed to the book, where they had the 3 girls first. 

I suppose it's to show Simon getting over his trauma and showing him welcoming a son and heir with complete joy in case there isn't a second season. 

[DearEvette]

42 minutes ago, Artsda said:

They've done a lot of damage to Colin too  with this Marina plot too that, they inserted this daytime soap who is the daddy type plot to make him look like a fool who is only spared through Penn's outting of Marina. 

The whole Marina plot never should have happened. They took Eloise's story and a small backstory and turned it into something that wasn't needed and just did more damage.

I think the biggest thing that harmed Colin   is that he was made a dullard that you couldn't distinguish from and Benedict for six whole episodes.  If anything, the Marina subplot made tv Colin at least noticeable. 

I don't agree that the Marina plot shouldn't have happened per se.  if they keep Marina's fate the same as the books, then viewers will have a history with Marina  that we didn't have in the books and there is now a face and a human to that story.  She was just a background plot point in the books.  At least this way, it makes Marina a tragic figure in and of herself and not just someone who exists solely for Phillip's manpain.

[Brn2bwild]

1 hour ago, EyewatchTV211 said:

I remembered this being referenced in Colin/Penelope's book and went back to check. In the books, Colin does in fact spend a lot of time traveling, as he heads off to do after season 1 of the show. It isn't spurred by the events of the show, but he does travel. When he returns in the book, there's exploration of his seeming "need" to travel and difficulty staying home for long periods of time and not knowing exactly why. There's one section that says, "Every now and then, he simply had to get away. There was no other way to describe it. Away from the ton, who thought him a charming rogue and nothing else, away from England, which encouraged younger sons to enter the military or the clergy, neither of which suited his temperament." So I think he doesn't want to do those things and is able to get away with not doing those things because the family is well off enough that he doesn't have to and is more understanding of his choices than the typical family like theirs might be. They just want him to be happy. Colin is trying to figure out his path. And as the show has already started showing with Benedict, he is able to find his path with his art. 

That's interesting, and I do wonder how typical that was in reality (and I realize these are romance books, where things can be idealized).  That lifestyle cost a huge amount of money to maintain, and there were eight children.  Even Queen Victoria's younger sons (in a family of nine) were pushed into careers in the army or navy.  Winston Churchill's father was a younger son of a duke and ran for public office.  It's surprising there isn't any pressure on the younger adult sons to set up their own households, independent of their oldest brother. 

Edited January 1, 2021 by Brn2bwild

[Katsullivan]

37 minutes ago, Artsda said:

I wonder why the ending baby birth scene had the boy be first? As opposed to the book, where they had the 3 girls first. 

Because Simon vowed never to have an heir, so it's thematic that his story ends with him breaking that vow. The Hastings line would continue with his son. 

Edited January 1, 2021 by Katsullivan

[Atlanta]

Just finished Anthony's book and now to Benedict's. It makes me look forward to a second season since there are a lot of funny parts to A's book. 

[bijoux]

I don't find Quinn to be the deepest writer, but there's an excellent balance of balls to the walls hilarity and genuine heart in The Viscount Who Loved Me. 

[bubble sparkly]

So, from what I understand the whole mystery Featherington heir wasn’t a thing in the books because Mr F was already dead right? Wasn’t there a similar plot on Downtown Abbey and eventually the cousin heir and one of the main character daughters fell in love etc? This was also a Bennett problem in P&P.

I wonder if they will change Eloise’s book husband from being Marina’s husband to the new heir guy? I’m guessing Lady F may try to get the new heir to marry Pen or the other non-cheese aficionado daughter, but the other daughter has barely been shown. So i guess it could also be Pen, but they seem to be keeping her Colin obsession so who knows?

[Roseanna]

16 hours ago, Gwendolyn said:

First they bring forward a character from book 5 and throw story blockades here to keep that story in tact. Marina could've accepted a proposal from about 20 guys based on the scenes in ep one, guys as young, hot, and rich as Colin, but nooooooo plot reasons she wouldn't give them the time of day. Then Lady F discovers she's not having her monthly (women weren't regular back then due to diet, hell women aren't regular now. All Marina had to do was tell the Lady F when she accused her of having a bun in the oven, she wasn't regular and bought herself another 6 wks).  So Lady F tries to force her to marry old fogies to get her out of the house, again Marina rebels for plot reasons. Finally realizing the secret is about to be obvious (umm...empire waist gowns seem ideal for hiding a growing bump) the writers have her zone in on Colin. Why? Because it's the one person Pen would care about. The one person Lady W would out Marina's secret for.

So the writers could say "look we laid out clues about who could be Lady Whistledown".

Secondly, to preserve book continuity, Marina cannot marry anyone until Sir Phillip shows up, so they were not going to let her marry Colin and sacrificed Pen/Lady W to that necessity. If they were going to basically create a character out of thin air, why choose one that is part of another character's future (in this case Eloise). Just create one. Book Marina isn't related to the Featheringtons (who are also not titled in the books, so no better than Marina, so why are they adding that extra class level here? Again making Pen look worse). Book Marina is white, so if they wanted to tell a story about race here, create a character where you can explore that without the weight of the books future continuity driving the story decisions.

How clever - you are absolutely right. Any girl of sense whose lover had gone abroad and who had found herself pregnant would have married another as soon as possible. Only, maybe Marina didn't know the signs of pregnancy?

[Featherhat]

2 hours ago, Artsda said:

It going to seem like rewarding her public outing of Marina and sending her to the point of making tea for abort the child if she gets Colin in the end.  She shouldn't get Colin. I don't want to see her mother get what she plotted for either, someone in her home married to a Bridgerton to pay off their debts.

This version of LW has contempt against her from the town, even Simon. I can't see anyone clapping for her outing either like what happens in the books. I don't want to see any Featherington+Marina win.

They've done a lot of damage to Colin too  with this Marina plot too that, they inserted this daytime soap who is the daddy type plot to make him look like a fool who is only spared through Penn's outting of Marina. 

The whole Marina plot never should have happened. They took Eloise's story and a small backstory and turned it into something that wasn't needed and just did more damage.

Penelope and Colin's story is potentially season 3 or 4, they have plenty of time to redeem Penelope, particularly if Marina is not seen again or if she is shown making a life with Philip (which sets out problems for a potential Eloise/Philip story but that's another tangent). 

They did write themselves into a corner by having LW be cureller in general and potentially ruining the life of a known character who was a protagonist and not someone like Cressida. They wanted to do a lot of things with 8 episodes AND have the dramatic reveal of LW in S1 and not S3/4, so a lot of things got messy, made no sense and were written for plot. Because there's no reason that Marina couldn't have had the exact same plot with a guy not named Bridgerton, even if she ended up with Philip doing the decent thing by his niece and nephew to get canon right. I don't think what she did was right but I don't think this show was ever going to let Colin/Marina get married and raise George's baby together with or without telling him. Girl succeeds in tricking (hot, young) guy into marrying her and trying to pretend it's his baby wouldn't go down well as a storyline for Marina either. 

Plenty of characters in night time or Netflix soaps have done terrible things to other people and got "rewarded" with the guy/girl at the end, look at Downton Abbey or any other Shondaland show where it happened with all sexes and races and people in different positions of power.  They might take feedback and course correct but she won't be evil or capricious when she's not LW. I do think she'll suffer the consequences of her actions in her family's place in society, the big Daddy's heir issue and other bits they bring in.  These are producers that left THAT scene in for Daphne/Simon and didn't take the opportunity to even explore it better and now they have a HEA almost exactly like the book. 

Even in the books whilst LW hadn't gone after anyone like that Colin yells that she'll be disgraced if anyone finds out. Because even tweaking the noses of society and pointing out idiocy and hypocrisy and never actually snooping at doors etc would make her unwelcome in many of those homes again.  

I do think they're going to go Penelope/Colin and possibly even Eloise/Philip if they get that far, especially if they time jump 10 years into the future. Whether they should or not is a different matter but at this point I believe that's what they're planning. There was no other need to make her Marina and her eventual husband Philip the second son otherwise. 

I didn't love Pen in the books or physically identify with her, though I get a lot of the wallflower stuff, (my favourites are Kate and Edwina) but I did like her and the and it was clear from early on she was going to be Colin's love interest. 

I do think the writers did all the involved characters a disservice from our POV by not considering the effects of race on the audience, they created a world where the Queen has made race a non issue in society to the point where it's not really a factor in any of the main romantic interactions and plots but that's not how viewers perceive it. 

1 hour ago, Brn2bwild said:

That's interesting, and I do wonder how typical that was in reality (and I realize these are romance books, where things can be idealized).  That lifestyle cost a huge amount of money to maintain, and there were eight children.  Even Queen Victoria's younger sons (in a family of nine) were pushed into careers in the army or navy.  Winston Churchill's father was a younger son of a duke and ran for public office.  It's surprising there isn't any pressure on the younger adult sons to set up their own households, independent of their oldest brother. 

I think that's just part of Quinn's Fantasy Regency. I don't think any of her series have younger sons going into the church or Army/Navy, even those that aren't as wealthy as the Bridgertons. Sebastian Grey finds another way and pretends to cadge breakfast with his cousins. 

 

Edited January 1, 2021 by Featherhat

[RachelKM]

1 minute ago, Roseanna said:

How clever - you are absolutely right. Any girl of sense whose lover had gone abroad and who had found herself pregnant would have married another as soon as possible. Only, maybe Marina didn't know the signs of pregnancy?

It appears she at least knew that failing to have her period meant something.  We see her upset that she hasn't bled in the first episode.  This is before Lady F confronts her. 

And yes, Marina should have been trying to lock someone down immediately.  Honestly, if she'd done so, she could have likely passed the child off.  An 8ish month baby wouldn't do more than raise eyebrows at best.  (Though reading of the bands would have added a couple of weeks to the wait.) 

I think we are supposed to believe that, while she enjoyed the attention, Marina was convinced that George would come back and marry her.  So she didn't take any of her suitors seriously. And, it appears, that her indifference and then the period in which she was "unavailable" due to Lady F's freakout and imposition of a lockdown caused many to move on. Colin, as an acquaintance of the family and admire of Marina was apparently still around and Marina had seemed to genuinely enjoy his company and engage him in conversation even while she continued to think only of George romantically.

[ursula]

40 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

51 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

How clever - you are absolutely right. Any girl of sense whose lover had gone abroad and who had found herself pregnant would have married another as soon as possible. Only, maybe Marina didn't know the signs of pregnancy?

I think we are supposed to believe that, while she enjoyed the attention, Marina was convinced that George would come back and marry her.

It's not an assumption left for the audience to conclude but a stated fact. She literally tells Mrs F when she goes on her the poverty tour that "my man loves me and he's coming to get me".  Mrs F forged the letter to "wake her up".

It's kind of sad/ironic that if Mrs F hadn't been so cynical, she would have saved everyone a lot of grief by just doing what Daphne did in the end, and hunting down George Crane to make him take responsibility for the child. 

[DearEvette]

2 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

I wonder if they will change Eloise’s book husband from being Marina’s husband to the new heir guy?

Assuming they get that far and given what they've made canon for the tv version, I think they'd have to really re-think some elements of  Eloise's book for adaptation. Tv Eloise is very different from book Eloise.  In the book, Marina is a Bridgerton cousin and Eloise sends a letter of condolence to Sir Phillip after Marina's death which then starts a correspondence with him.  Also Eloise is really feeling her spinsterhood and is desperate to get married. 

None of that tracks with tv Eloise, so unless they make her a lot more conventional over the next seasons, then it would be really OOC for tv Eloise.  Als the lion's share of her book takes place at Sir Phillips' estate with her brothers showing up in various places.  It doesn't allow for the variety and fun of the London season and the entire family and other side stories, like this one.  Unless they decide to do a house party or something, which again, doesn't exist in the books and would be anathema to Sir Phillip because he just wants to germinate plants or some such.

[Ohiopirate02]

1 hour ago, ursula said:

It's not an assumption left for the audience to conclude but a stated fact. She literally tells Mrs F when she goes on her the poverty tour that "my man loves me and he's coming to get me".  Mrs F forged the letter to "wake her up".

It's kind of sad/ironic that if Mrs F hadn't been so cynical, she would have saved everyone a lot of grief by just doing what Daphne did in the end, and hunting down George Crane to make him take responsibility for the child. 

Daphne only succeeded in tracking down what happened to George and alerting Sir Philip because she is now the Duchess of Hastings.   Lady F had no such power.

[Featherhat]

41 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

Assuming they get that far and given what they've made canon for the tv version, I think they'd have to really re-think some elements of  Eloise's book for adaptation. Tv Eloise is very different from book Eloise.  In the book, Marina is a Bridgerton cousin and Eloise sends a letter of condolence to Sir Phillip after Marina's death which then starts a correspondence with him.  Also Eloise is really feeling her spinsterhood and is desperate to get married. 

None of that tracks with tv Eloise, so unless they make her a lot more conventional over the next seasons, then it would be really OOC for tv Eloise.  Als the lion's share of her book takes place at Sir Phillips' estate with her brothers showing up in various places.  It doesn't allow for the variety and fun of the London season and the entire family and other side stories, like this one.  Unless they decide to do a house party or something, which again, doesn't exist in the books and would be anathema to Sir Phillip because he just wants to germinate plants or some such.

I think they will have to do some rethinking somewhere along the line. As I've said before, pre watching I thought they would change a lot more things up with romantic pairings and in the early episodes as well. After watching it all I think the current/original plan is to keep the main book pairings intact. They used Marina instead of an original character but switched her over the the Featheringtons so she isn't potentially marrying her cousin's husband and introduced Philip as a good man.  And have a potential for witty, modern heroine/stick in the mud opposites thing. 

Eloise was definitely feeling a bit desperate but that's after 10 years on the marriage mart and especially after Penelope gets married. Before that she turned down eight proposals, albeit because she wanted true love not because she wanted something different from her life like this series and nor was Marina a person we knew.  Leaving aside potential treatment of a WOC by the narrative for the moment because I don't think the series really considered that in S1 for the relationship drama and that also might change things in later seasons but we don't know yet: that might mean they think we'll be sad that someone we knew has died and have more invested in the story or that they won't go there at all. If they want to follow Marina and her marriage for a season or two more then it maybe reduces the chances of Eloise/Philip happening as well although that has never stopped a Shonda show before.

Theoretically if they get that far they'll do a time jump and like all TV time jumps life hasn't turned out so great for Eloise (wherever she was left off) and now she's in a slump and writes her condolences to Philip because she remembers everything that went on with Marina. 

Maybe they could combine Francesca and Eloise? Or by that time they'll have a lot of other characters to follow in London? Most book characters who have their HEAs actually like to spend a lot of time at their country estates/cottages so there could be lots of visits and country house porn. 

If they don't even think they'll make it to book 5 and won't combine her book story with anyone else's before then they can pretty much do anything with her including being single or a queer romance or deliberately leaving it up in the air.

 

Edited January 2, 2021 by Featherhat

[quarks]

Speaking of Francesca, her book happens during Colin and Eloise's books - when she is already a widow. So if this show is planning on more or less following her book, they probably should have her at least engaged during the next season - which means actually having her on the show next season so viewers are aware that she's someone they should care about.

[ursula]

21 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Daphne only succeeded in tracking down what happened to George and alerting Sir Philip because she is now the Duchess of Hastings.   Lady F had no such power.

So I'm too lazy to check but I'm quite certain that Daphne didn't actually succeed in tracking George or Phillip down, but her inquiries got Sir Phillip's attention while he was already in the middle of his own search to find Marina, having known of her from his brother's half-finished letters. Even if Lady F didn't have Daphne's access to the General's wife, she could have sent a message to the Crane estate back in the country where Marina lived, and that message could have reached Phillip who I assume was in charge of the estate while his brother was at war. Even if he didn't know about Marina then (although it seems like George had been dead for a long time without Marina knowing), if he saw the letters he would have had to believe her. 

Something got me thinking... For some reason all this while I thought George was the younger brother and I just rewatched episode 1, and realised he's the older which changes the idea of him as someone who was just as young and immature as Marina, to someone more irresponsible. 

[Roseanna]

8 hours ago, ursula said:

So I'm too lazy to check but I'm quite certain that Daphne didn't actually succeed in tracking George or Phillip down, but her inquiries got Sir Phillip's attention while he was already in the middle of his own search to find Marina, having known of her from his brother's half-finished letters. Even if Lady F didn't have Daphne's access to the General's wife, she could have sent a message to the Crane estate back in the country where Marina lived, and that message could have reached Phillip who I assume was in charge of the estate while his brother was at war. Even if he didn't know about Marina then (although it seems like George had been dead for a long time without Marina knowing), if he saw the letters he would have had to believe her.

True. And that makes one wonder why Lady F didn't even try to contact George, but on the contrary falsified his letter and try to marry Marian off with that old man - did she want to punish Marina because she had concealed her pregnancy and thus damaged also the reputation of her daughters?

Or perhaps one shouldn't even expect that the characters of this show have any believable motives. They seems to behave entirely because of the demands of the plot. 

[ouinason]

Lady F. didn't see any hope of George doing the right thing, so I don't think she felt that there would be any purpose in contacting his family.  They would be more likely to slut shame and deny Marina than anything else, historically speaking.

[bijoux]

9 hours ago, DearEvette said:

None of that tracks with tv Eloise, so unless they make her a lot more conventional over the next seasons, then it would be really OOC for tv Eloise.  Als the lion's share of her book takes place at Sir Phillips' estate with her brothers showing up in various places.  It doesn't allow for the variety and fun of the London season and the entire family and other side stories, like this one.  Unless they decide to do a house party or something, which again, doesn't exist in the books and would be anathema to Sir Phillip because he just wants to germinate plants or some such.

I suppose they could have more of the family converging on Benedict and Sophie and certainly show them while Eloise is missing. My esteem for show Violet would go very much up if I saw her trotting off to the bank to get her affairs in order in case of a ransom note.

8 hours ago, quarks said:

Speaking of Francesca, her book happens during Colin and Eloise's books - when she is already a widow. So if this show is planning on more or less following her book, they probably should have her at least engaged during the next season - which means actually having her on the show next season so viewers are aware that she's someone they should care about.

If next season covers one social season like this one, I doubt it. Eloise is supposed to come out next year and Francesca the year after. While I think she married young, I don't think it was before she was presented to society. I know that The Viscount Who Loved Me takes place a year after this. What about Benedict's book, is it the year after or is there a larger time jump? I know from Eloise's book that Sophie was her ladies maid for a minute, but I don't know if Francesca was still at home at that point or already married to her first husband.

[scarynikki12]

47 minutes ago, bijoux said:

What about Benedict's book, is it the year after or is there a larger time jump?

When he meets Sophie at the masked ball it’s a year after Anthony and Kate marry and then two years go by before they meet again. If they allow a similar time jump then Francesca could be newly married to her first husband.