Book vs. Series: On The Shelf

[Nidratime]

Well, one thing I do believe, if Marina had told Colin about her circumstances and he still wanted to marry her, I don't think Penelope would've publicized anything. Penelope was heartbroken but she was also upset that Marina was pushing Colin to marry her because she was pregnant and not because she was madly in love with him or that the two of them knew the situation and decided to rush things, together.

[ursula]

9 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

Upon her introduction to the ton, Marina had massive amounts of power and status. She, with almost no effort at all, replaced thatseason’s Diamond of the First Water. She had men falling at her feet, and she refused them all for George. She had agency and used it poorly.

Firstly, Marina herself calls out Mrs F several times for being a privileged and wealthy member of society. It's right there in canon.

Secondly, having attention isn't the same as having agency. That's literally Daphne's story - needing the Duke's specific attention to make herself desirable. Apart from the fact that none of those men proposed to Marina - Mrs F points out that the young men wanted to court her which would take months - Marina didn't arrive in society to pass of herself to someone else but wanted to stay faithful to whom she believed was her true love. That showed her naivete, that she simply didn't know or was told what her reality as a young woman should have been. She got that education from Mrs F.

 

 

5 minutes ago, Nidratime said:

Well, one thing I do believe, if Marina had told Colin about her circumstances and he still wanted to marry her, I don't think Penelope would've publicized anything. Penelope was heartbroken but she was also upset that Marina was pushing Colin to marry her because she was pregnant and not because she was madly in love with him or that the two of them knew the situation and decided to rush things, together.

Penelope was fine with anybody else but Colin marrying Marina under those circumstances. It bothered her not because Marina was deceiving some unsuspecting dude but because Marina was getting someone Penelope felt entitled to. So she'd definitely have exposed her if she felt it would pressure his family into stopping the wedding.

Edited December 27, 2020 by ursula

[Door County Cherry]

Could we please bring down the heat a bit in this thread?  It's fine to disagree but stop attributing motivations to other posters or dismissing their opinions.

In addition, I've just created a thread Lady Whistledown: Friend or Foe.  Please take the discussion of Penelope's actions as Whistledown and the effect they had on characters over to that thread.  It's not something that happened in the books and it is taking over two threads in this forum.  It'd be best to condense it into its own thread.

Thank you.

[BlackberryJam]

2 minutes ago, bijoux said:

I don't think there is such a character in the books. Mr. Featherington was dead before the book series started as I recall and there was no one mentioned in such capacity. I think this is a show development. They may introduce a new character or repurpose an existing one. 

Rutledge is the uncle of Sebastian Grey, right? And Rutledge is desperate for an heir because he hates Sebastian so much. (I loved Sebastian, that romance novel writing minx.) I’m wondering if they make Rutledge the heir? 

I’m trying to remember if there is another family or branch of a family that can fulfill that role.

On the lines of Eloise, I don’t want her to be the queer character. I’m tired of the brainy female characters getting that storyline. How about making Francesca a lesbian? I would be down with bisexual Benedict, and kind of hated how they had him see Granville with his lover and run only to assert his masculinity by have a MFF threesome. UGH.

[Featherhat]

Edit: Just seen the mod note

Edited December 27, 2020 by Featherhat

[ursula]

30 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

On the lines of Eloise, I don’t want her to be the queer character. I’m tired of the brainy female characters getting that storyline.

Eloise gives me asexual vibes honestly. Unlike Penelope with Colin, there seems to be no sign of sexual interest with anyone - male or female - with Eloise. Her bonding moments with Benedict about not fitting in, but him still having more privileges as a man, definitely seemed to indicate someone who doesn't toe the status quo. Like someone above said, Jo March vibes. It's not just about her being brainy but inconvenientional. If the show wanted to queer some of the Bridgertons, her and B would be an easy fix. (And if we could do without the eventual Marina suicide as a path to a het white HEA, then it's a win win for representation on all counts).

35 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

I would be down with bisexual Benedict, and kind of hated how they had him see Granville with his lover and run only to assert his masculinity by have a MFF threesome.

That made him seem more likely to be queer, imo. Maybe his book love interest could be genderbent.

[Slakkie]

1 hour ago, BlackberryJam said:

 

Penelope is a teenage girl who has no idea what sex is, and barely understands love. I thought it was pretty clear in the show, but perhaps it wasn’t, but this was Lady Whistledown’s first ‘season.’ Penelope had no idea if this venture was going to make money or not and Penelope was at constant risk of exposure. On top of that, IF Penelope has made money, she’d have to find a way to get it to her family without exposing herself.

This idea that she’s this vicious villain just doesn’t jib with the narrative.

In the book her family is NOT wealthy (not poor) but she funnels some of her money through to her mother and sisters from a dead long lost uncle that helps keep them going but the rest of her wealth is hers

[ouinason]

I to am tired of the "unconventional" person being the gay/queer one in the family.  Can't someone be different in one way but not another?  Can't the perfect little sister be the one who might like girls instead and Eloise just be not that interested in romance for the sake of it?  She's not even 18 yet, so not being excited about being sold off into marriage and risking her life to have babies makes perfect sense, whether she's straight or not.  And liking to write does not make a person a Bluestocking.  That is an entirely different thing having to do with devotion to learning and interest in education.  I saw no sign of any of that.  

[BlackberryJam]

5 minutes ago, ouinason said:

I to am tired of the "unconventional" person being the gay/queer one in the family.  Can't someone be different in one way but not another?  Can't the perfect little sister be the one who might like girls instead and Eloise just be not that interested in romance for the sake of it?  She's not even 18 yet, so not being excited about being sold off into marriage and risking her life to have babies makes perfect sense, whether she's straight or not.  And liking to write does not make a person a Bluestocking.  That is an entirely different thing having to do with devotion to learning and interest in education.  I saw no sign of any of that.  

Preach! Daphne should have been the asexual or queer daughter in my mind. She goes through a couple of seasons and doesn’t find love and is considered boring. The foundation was laid for her to be at least asexual. 

[Door County Cherry]

39 minutes ago, ursula said:

That made him seem more likely to be queer, imo. Maybe his book love interest could be genderbent.

That's what I thought too.  It might be a little stereotypical for the character who must affirm his masculinity in a threesome and runs from meeting Granville's lover to be queer but there is groundwork there if they want to follow through.

8 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

Daphne should have been the asexual or queer daughter in my mind.

Perhaps but since she's the first story, that was unlikely to happen.

[BlackberryJam]

1 minute ago, Door County Cherry said:

That's what I thought too.  It might be a little stereotypical for the character who must affirm his masculinity in a threesome and runs from meeting Granville's lover to be queer but there is groundwork there if they want to follow through.

Perhaps but since she's the first story, that was unlikely to happen.

I KNOW, dammit. I wish they’d started with Daphne’s third year into society, let Eloise wait a year and bring out Francesca who can marry her first husband. 

[ouinason]

I didn't see Benedict as anything other than surprised to see those guys together like that.  He didn't run off TO have a threesome, he was making out with one girl when the other literally tapped him on the shoulder.  It wasn't his plan to show how straight and manly he was or anything.  

I really thought Granville was going to hit on him in that moment where he had his hand on his shoulder.  And I thought Benedict might go for it too, honestly.

[ursula]

34 minutes ago, ouinason said:

And liking to write does not make a person a Bluestocking.  That is an entirely different thing having to do with devotion to learning and interest in education.

Not speaking for the books but in the show, she literally says she wants to go to the university and she resents Benedict for having the privilege to live his life on his own terms. She tells Daphne she’s grateful she (Daphne) is perfect because it lets her (Eloise) not to be. It’s not just her not being interested in marriage and babies, it’s her clearly wanting a life that society won’t let her have. Again maybe it’s a book thing (or rather not reading the books thing) but it seemed clear to me what show Eloise was supposed to be portraying.

 

12 minutes ago, ouinason said:

I really thought Granville was going to hit on him in that moment where he had his hand on his shoulder.  And I thought Benedict might go for it too, honestly.

I thought Benedict was obviously crushing on Granville without realizing he was crushing on Granville. Then his sketches also seemed to be of male hands and fingers. Indeed when he and Eloise had their first smoking tête-à-tête about “wanting things they couldn’t have”, I wasn’t sure they were talking about his art or his sexuality. It’s so on the nose that I would be surprised if all this was accidental.

Edited December 27, 2020 by ursula

[ouinason]

1 minute ago, ursula said:

she literally says she wants to go to the university and she resents Benedict for having the privilege to live his life on his own terms. She tells Daphne she’s grateful she (Daphne) is perfect because it lets her (Eloise) not to be. It’s not just her not being interested in marriage and babies, it’s her clearly wanting a life that society won’t let her have.

I forgot about that, you're right.  Though I don't think wanting the opportunity to do other things (go to school, travel, anything) makes her super bookish or bluestockingish.  She didn't seem particularly grounded in study, just grasping at something, anything, to do for herself.  

I quite like Eloise in the series because she is young and wants things.  She's not who she's going to grow up to be yet, and she's feisty.  

[RachelKM]

1 hour ago, ursula said:

Firstly, Marina herself calls out Mrs F several times for being a privileged and wealthy member of society. It's right there in canon.

She called her out for her priorities which she finds shallow and privileged.  But it doesn't follow that Marina is truly poor or without her own privilege.  It's a common trope in these stories that people who lived on country estates were portrayed as finding Ton life frivolous and shallow. Plus, Marina believed herself in love with a country landed gentleman and was annoyed with being put into the "marriage mart." So her derision may not have been wholly based on her attitude toward privilege as much as disdain for the process. 

It's established that Marina has a dowry.  Portia sneers that its only four figures (presumably, the Fetherintons were quite wealthy before Lord Featherington's habits wasted it), but four figure dowries were not considered truly small.  And, were she not at least a gentlemen's daughter, Marina would not have been able to set foot in the the balls she attended.

Penelope outing Marina's pregnancy is definitely much more serious than most of what I recall her doing in the books, especially against someone who was not an actual terrible person the narrative made clear was cruel or a villain. But Marina was also not an innocent in the sense that she was not an honest broker in her dealings with the Collin, or even the Featheringtons.  Marina was prepared to seduce Colin to force his hand.  His proposal made from choice (if uninformed choice) was a complete surprise to Marina.  She was willing to trap him and even leave him with the impression that he was her baby's father for months (even Colin could not be dumb enough to fail to not that 6 months is not 9).

 

While Colin was not very interestingly displayed in this series and absolutely provided limited POV.  But he is a person too.

I'm also not convinced Penelope's actions were based in entitlement or even malice or jealousy. She didn't seem to have an expectation of Colin returning her feelings or even resent his attentions toward Marina before she understood Marina's situation.  

[ursula]

Just now, ouinason said:

I forgot about that, you're right.  Though I don't think wanting the opportunity to do other things (go to school, travel, anything) makes her super bookish or bluestockingish.  She didn't seem particularly grounded in study, just grasping at something, anything, to do for herself.  

I quite like Eloise in the series because she is young and wants things.  She's not who she's going to grow up to be yet, and she's feisty.  

It might have helped if they cast someone who looked younger. She was paired with Penelope but acted much mature (an act on Pen’s part) and sometimes even wrt to Daphne. She didn’t seem like someone still evolving. She seemed like someone who knew what she wanted and understood that she won’t be allowed to get it. Without any book information to guide me, I’d have penned her down as the one who went on to join the suffragists movement and/or just lived an unconventional existence, not tying herself to society expectations of respectable marriage and babies. 

[Featherhat]

I suppose Sophie could become Samuel, the bastard son of the Earl of Penwood and he and Benedict could meet at a masked ball and still retire to a cottage to paint and have no one question their relationship which is entirely in keeping with the book. I do think it's unlikely though and if anything they'd be more likely to make him Bi and then still marry Sophie. 

More likely would be someone like Edwina or Posy: a secondary protagonist or new character. Though I did like Edwina being the beautiful Diamond who secretly just wants to find a not particularly wealthy scholar and live in Oxford though but is forced to wade though rich, vapid men to support her mother and sister. 

[ursula]

10 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

She called her out for her priorities which she finds shallow and privileged. 

No, she literally says Mrs F is privileged. “someone like you living this ridiculously charmed [life]”. What’s the point speculating when there’s literal show canon as evidence?

 

10 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

Portia sneers that its only four figures (presumably, the Fetherintons were quite wealthy before Lord Featherington's habits wasted it), but four figure dowries were not considered truly small.  And, were she not at least a gentlemen's daughter, Marina would not have been able to set foot in the the balls she attended.

Not sure the relevance of this. I didn’t say Marina was of no social class, but she was of a lower class than the Fs. She was less privileged. The whole point of her situation was that she clearly didn’t have any of the protections in her dealings with George that someone like Daphne did. I really don’t understand why that’s so hard to grasp.

(Yes, what Marina was going to do with Colin was terrible. But this was not her first choice. As she said repeatedly, she did this because she thought she had to and we know this because when she thought she was no longer pregnant, she turned down Phillip’s proposal, only accepting it again when the pregnancy was confirmed.) 
 

But really, that’s inconsequential because Penelope was fine going along with this plan until it affected someone she felt entitled to. Penelope wasn’t acting because she thought Marina was wrong, but because she was affected. 

Edited December 27, 2020 by ursula

[RachelKM]

26 minutes ago, ursula said:

No, she literally says Mrs F is privileged. “someone like you living this ridiculously charmed [life]”. There’s no point  to speculate based on what you think their status is when there’s literal show canon as evidence.

"Ridiculously charmed life" doesn't necessarily refer exclusively to social and economic privilege since we know that she was dealing with the separation from her love, being unmarried and pregnant, and being tossed into the marriage mart.  Assuming Marina referred exclusively to economic privilege is an assumption that actually makes for less interesting characterization. It turns her into a petulant child (being ostensibly rather privileged herself) sneering a people slightly above her own status.  Again, four figure dowries were not small (300 pounds a year could support a middle class family).

Also, it shows Marina's total lack of understanding the realities of Portia's life which is much more constrained than Marina acknowledges.  Portia, a married woman with children, has vastly more freedom than Marina or her own children, but she is still totally dependant on her husband's choices, particularly economic choices.

Also, as a mother of daughters, particularly without a son, her only job in her life is to see those daughters settled.  Portia was still unpleasant, ridiculous, and mercenary.  But she has reasons for her attitude that Marina's romantic ideals with her George were somewhat condescending toward.

ETA

26 minutes ago, ursula said:

But really, that’s inconsequential because Penelope was fine going along with this plan until it affected someone she felt entitled to. Penelope wasn’t acting because she thought Marina was wrong, but because she was affected. 

I still don't understand where this "someone she felt she was entitled to" argument comes from. 

Yes, Penelope has feelings for Colin.  But he is also her friend as is Eloise.  We are all a little tribal, more willing to see the perspective of people we care about.  Penelope never indicated that she felt she was entitled to Colin.  And she didn't even seem to have any jealousy when Colin initially showed interest in Marina. It was only when Marina was tricking him that she objected.  It's not entitlement to feel more concern on behalf of people you care about or to not want to watch them suffer. 

Edited December 27, 2020 by RachelKM

[ursula]

24 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

Again, four figure dowries were not small (300 pounds a year could support a middle class family).

And again, I didn’t argue that Marina was not privileged, just that she was less privileged than the Fs so I’m not sure why you repeatedly bring up something that isn’t being called to question. Marina obviously wasn’t aware of Portia’s personal marital circumstances, but both women were aware that Marina was of a lower social class. Clearly it’s not just “a matter of figures” since as I already pointed out that - unlike Daphne who was almost in a similar situation with the Duke - Marina didn’t have any of the protections she should have had in her situation. (And this is all without taking into account the show’s history of Black people recently rising in the peerage).

And yes, Marina is naive. That’s the whole point or she won’t have been stuck in her situation to start with.

Again I really don’t understand why any of this is hard to grasp. 

Edited December 27, 2020 by ursula

[RachelKM]

26 minutes ago, ursula said:

And again, I didn’t indicate that Marina was not privileged, just that she was less privileged than the Fs so I’m not sure why you repeatedly bring up something that isn’t being called to question. Marina obviously wasn’t aware of Portia’s personal circumstances, but both women were aware that Marina was of a lower social class. Clearly it’s not just “a matter of figures” since as I already pointed out that - unlike Daphne who was almost in a similar situation with the Duke - Marina didn’t have any of the protections she should have had in her situation. Again I really don’t understand why any of this is hard to grasp. 

I bring it up because their worlds were not so different. Which makes her attitude toward Portia less likely to be about economic or even social privilege. Her attitude toward Portia's machinations and priorities and more about finding her circumstances of being forced to endure the marriage mart and being separated from her love.

I have to agree with the other poster, I think it was BlackberryJam, who noted the inconsistencies in Marina's portrayal.  She was definitely a country cousin and less privileged than the Featheringtons (at least on the surface), but she was privileged enough to have a respectable dowry and access to balls attended by the peerage and even the queen.  

Was Portia's derisive attitude really about her lower status or talking her down because she felt threatened by Marina's presence and what it meant for her own daughters?*  Was Marina a naive romantic or a calculated schemer?  I mean, she whiplashed between the two rather quickly, starry-eyed about George, then prepared to seduce an unsuspecting man to force him to propose, to clear-eyed pragmatism, to romantic based indignation at the notion of accepting a marriage of convenience (despite being ruined within her social set).  Shit, it was only 8 episodes.

Back to the topic of the thread, I wonder how they will reconcile this Marina with the book Marina who was described as deeply depressed and possibly always melancholy.  As changeable as Marina was, retiring and melancholy wasn't her even when she was actively grieving.

*Daughters Portia had a duty to see safely married before her husband passed and they had no male to protect or provide for them

 

Edited December 27, 2020 by RachelKM

[ursula]

28 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

She was definitely a country cousin and less privileged than the Featheringtons (at least on the surface), but she was privileged enough to have a respectable dowry and access to balls attended by the peerage and even the queen.  

28 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

I bring it up because their worlds were not so different. Which makes her attitude toward Portia less likely to be about economic or even social privilege.

 

Which is entirely speculation on your part despite there being more than enough evidence (in the show) that Marina’s family and the Fs are more than just “figures” apart. Marina’ access to balls were due to her relationship with the Fs. That was the whole point of them helping her through her debutante year and not being presented by her own family. Portia wanted to send her away and get rid of the completion, but Mr F forbid it (probably because he was indebted to Marina’s family in a way) - showing that without the Fs, Marina would have been cut off. Heck, even the dowry you keep mentioning - why would Mrs F sneer at something that is just “a little less” than her daughters’s? It’s self evident to point out that if her family had status on their own merit, Marina won’t have needed the Fs in the first place.  
 

And re: “ridiculously charmed life", at the time she said this, Marina thought her lover was just a letter and a war away. So yeah, she felt worried about her circumstances but she still felt (for lack a better word), “romantically superior” to Portia. And we see that as much as she’s faithful to George, she’s charmed by the attentions of the suitors and ton. She loved her new clothes and shoes and presents. She was certainly referring to status and wealth. And she refers to this again when Portia tries to show her the real lower class. 

 

28 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

Was Portia's derisive attitude really about her lower status or talking her down because she felt threatened by Marina's presence and what it meant for her own daughters?*

They’re not mutually exclusive. Portia had a problem with housing the competition, but she was sneering at Marina before she even appeared, expecting she could use her (Marina) as a foil to make her own daughters shine. Not to be pendantic, but this is all there in the show, we don’t need to speculate or provide alternative interpretations at things that were spelt out for us.

28 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

Back to the topic of the thread, I wonder how they will reconcile this Marina with the book Marina who was described as deeply depressed and possibly always melancholy. 

There’s no reason why they have to. It’s not like if Marina’s death has to be established  to further anyone’s story. Eloise can find another Sir Phillip NotCrane if they’re determined to give her a heteronormative HEA. 

Edited December 27, 2020 by ursula

[BlackberryJam]

That was me pointing out the inconsistencies in Marina’s character and motivations. If they were doing that to lay the groundwork for her eventual suicide, I wish it had been a bit more obvious. Right now, it just looks poor, plot-driven writing. 

Marina’s family may have had the ability to present her, but as mentioned above, many country families derided the ton and the season. Moreover, she was pregnant/sullied and her father apparently wanted to make her someone else’s problem. 

[RachelKM]

1 minute ago, ursula said:

Which is entirely speculation on your part despite there being more than enough evidence (in the show) that Marina’s family and the Fs are more than just “figures” apart. 

I'm basing it the actual facts presented on the show and on the mores of the time.  Fearthingtons were her sponsors to the peerage events, but even they couldn't foist a person tuly outside their sphere onto such events and present her as debutant. And if she was so out of their sphere, she would not have had a bevy of callers.  She would need some degree of connections or wealth to have that many people at her door.  A charming personality and pretty face only got you so far in that society. There would be a handful of men who would dally with a pretty face and maybe even a guy or two so well of and indifferent to fortune.  But no way she'd be the toast of anything.

It is possible that the writers are that clueless about the times, I suppose.  But based one the facts provided to us on the show, Marina was allowed in their lives.  And apparently her father was wealthy enough to have lent money to Lord F in sufficient quantities to force his hand.  

So it's either bad writing or Marina was not so far removed from world of Lord and Lady F and she definitely had money enough to be considered respectable by their class. 

But whatever, maybe it is bad writing and lack of understanding of the social machinations of the times along with Marina's utter lack of consistent characterization.

[ursula]

Just now, BlackberryJam said:

Marina’s family may have had the ability to present her, but as mentioned above, many country families derided the ton and the season. Moreover, she was pregnant/sullied and her father apparently wanted to make her someone else’s problem. 

Is there any evidence that her family knew she was pregnant/sullied before she was presented or is this just speculation on your part? I thought it was obvious her parents wanted her presented to “climb up” and probably Mr F’s debt to secure this. But if there’s actual show canon evidence that her family knew and cast her out, I’d be interested in seeing this. 

[BlackberryJam]

Right @RachelKM.  A pretty face with no connections and being totally without connection landed a girl in a mistress position, or worse, a brothel. 

@ursula I’m making the same sort of speculations on backstory as you, which is why I used “apparently.” Although I think it’s a solid bet. Marina had to be three or so months pregnant by the time she came to London. 

[ursula]

19 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

I'm basing it the actual facts presented on the show and on the mores of the time. 

Well I’ll just go with what we’re presented. That Marina and Mrs F repeatedly refer to a status gap. That Mrs F felt she had the power to “stop” Marina’s season by just sending her away. That her family didn’t have enough power or influence to “fix” the George problem. That the Fs eventually relied on Marina’s marriage to Crane to fix their financial quandary and not on the generosity of their cousins, the wealthy Thompsons. 

I don’t think the audience needs to take a history lesson to follow a show especially when as you yourself admit, writers notoriously take liberties with history (and science for that matter). 
 

19 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

And apparently her father was wealthy enough to have lent money to Lord F in sufficient quantities to force his hand.  

Considering that Mr F was on the edge of bankruptcy, I don’t think her family had to be Bridgerton rich to be his creditors. Furthermore, her family could have had comfortable (for them) wealth without the same status that F did. If they wrote off a huge debt to give their daughter a leg up in society, why not?

14 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

A pretty face with no connections

The Fs were her connections. Again, literal canon. Distant cousin to Mr F. Sent to his home to be presented by said cousin’s family. 

14 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

@ursula I’m making the same sort of speculations on backstory as you, which is why I used “apparently.” Although I think it’s a solid bet. Marina had to be three or so months pregnant by the time she came to London. 

I’m not speculating, I’m going with what was said and done in canon. You’re assuming her family cast her out to the Fs based on zero evidence. Counter evidence even when you remember that Mrs F felt that her pregnancy was enough reason to make Mr F send her away (but refused to because of the blowback on her own girls). If Marina was explicitly sent to the Fs because she was pregnant, that won’t have been possible.

 

Also what’s the timeline for her pregnancy? Considering her panic when she missed her period, I thought it was the first missed period but maybe I was wrong. 

Edited December 27, 2020 by ursula

[bijoux]

1 hour ago, BlackberryJam said:

I KNOW, dammit. I wish they’d started with Daphne’s third year into society, let Eloise wait a year and bring out Francesca who can marry her first husband. 

Gasp! But it just wasn't done, skipping one daughter to present another to society. That why Kate amd Edwina debut simultaneously since they can't afford to do it twice. Just finished re-reading The Viscount and they better not mess with Mary. Her relationship with Kate was such a refreshing step away from the evil stepmother trope. 

1 hour ago, ouinason said:

 

I quite like Eloise in the series because she is young and wants things. She's not who she's going to grow up to be yet, and she's feisty.  

I think at this point Eloise doesn't know what she wants. She's trashing about like a fish on dry land in her frustration to get something else than what society is telling her is her only option. I don't really believe she has any clue what precisely that something else is. 

I love the bolded part and hold out hope for some other characters as well. 

42 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

 

Back to the topic of the thread, I wonder how they will reconcile this Marina with the book Marina who was described as deeply depressed and possibly always melancholy.  As changeable as Marina was, retiring and melancholy wasn't her even when she was actively grieving.

There is still the heartbreaking option of not understood and untreated post partum. I honestly hope it won't be suicide, but I doubt Marina will be alive when and if Eloise's story comes along. 

8 minutes ago, ursula said:

Is there any evidence that her family knew she was pregnant/sullied before she was presented or is this just speculation on your part? I thought it was obvious her parents wanted her presented to “climb up” and probably Mr F’s debt to secure this. But if there’s actual show canon evidence that her family knew and cast her out, I’d be interested in seeing this. 

I know you weren't asking me and I have no clue to offer, but I assumed the same thing as well. I think Mr. Featherington was part of it. There were his uncomfortable, leering looks in episode 1 I believe, and his complete lack of reaction to the news of her pregnancy. 

[BlackberryJam]

Responding to @ursula

I’m not sure why you’re quoting my “a pretty face with no connections” as I was saying that’s what Marina was NOT. 

Anyway, my quick research on the London season has it from Easter to mid-August. For Marina to have given birth to twins that survived she would have had to have gotten pregnant in January. By the time of Colin’s proposal, she would have been at least 5 and closer to 6 months along. With twins. 

I know you keep talking about things as if they are canon, but I don’t agree that they are. 

Edited December 27, 2020 by BlackberryJam
Clarification

[RachelKM]

16 minutes ago, ursula said:

That Mrs F felt she had the power to “stop” Marina’s season by just sending her away. That her family didn’t have enough power or influence to “fix” the George problem.

Only a fairly power peer with the power to ruin Marina's father could have "fixed" the George problem.  There was very little that could be done to force a member of the peerage or any man into marriage.  And sending a woman home from her mid-season could ruin almost any woman's season.

Marina's father had enough money to lend.

I don't recall if it was explicitly stated that Marina's father knew she was pregnant when she was sent to them.  But even if they didn't, season were expensive and having another family member already in town sponsor a daughter was done even when someone could afford it.  It may have been why he leveraged his ownership of a debt to save the funds as well as to use the additional connections of peerage that Lord and Lady F could provide.  It doesn't necessarily follow that he didn't have a very comfortable station.

Again, we are both speculating based on what was shown. But the writing explicitly showed that Marina had a respectable dowry, sufficient status to be permitted entry into the peerage (something that even wealthy merchants were rarely granted), and her father had the means to provide and enforce a loan. 

It's one thing for the show runners to not expect the audience to be wholly literate in Regency mores and economics. It's quite another to entirely violate them.

1 minute ago, bijoux said:

There were his uncomfortable, leering looks in episode 1 I believe, and his complete lack of reaction to the news of her pregnancy. 

I noticed the lack of surprise, but not the leering.  that's interesting.

 

[BlackberryJam]

2 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

It's one thing for the show runners to not expect the audience to be wholly literate in Regency mores and economics. It's quite another to entirely violate them.

I noticed the lack of surprise, but not the leering.  that's interesting.

 

Agreed!

As to Lord Featherington, it took me a bit to realize I was looking at Detective Inspector Poole from Death in Paradise. He plays a gambling skeeze so well. 

[ursula]

16 minutes ago, bijoux said:

There were his uncomfortable, leering looks in episode 1 I believe, and his complete lack of reaction to the news of her pregnancy. 

I just thought there were leering since Marina was supposed to be so hot. Which... yikes. When she didn’t see her period, my mind went to some uncomfortable places for a while. 
 

 

14 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

Anyway, my quick research on the London season has it from Easter to mid-August. For Marina to have given birth to twins that survived she would have had to have gotten pregnant in January. By the time of Colin’s proposal, she would have been at least 5 and closer to 6 months along. With twins. 

 

Again we don’t need to do homework to follow the show. Did she look like she was 5 months pregnant with twins in episode 8? Seriously, come on. If she was supposed to be that advanced we’d know. We knew she was gaining when she needed a refitting, but early pregnancy fat vs 2nd trimester with twins are too different things. 
 

12 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

Only a fairly power peer with the power to ruin Marina's father could have "fixed" the George problem.  There was very little that could be done to force a member of the peerage or any man into marriage.

In the show, we saw a man be forced to take responsibility for a maid’s baby just based on rumours. (Not marriage. But Mrs F basically expected Marina to become an impoverished beggar with no support.) Meanwhile George’s family were never even made aware of her situation. Again, I don’t need to do homework to follow the show. 
 

 

12 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

It's one thing for the show runners to not expect the audience to be wholly literate in Regency mores and economics. It's quite another to entirely violate them.

I didn’t realize they were violating anything when I was watching the show so this is entirely based on your own knowledge of Regency history which is fair but again my point about homework still stands. I’m going to have an entirely different reaction watching a sci-fi show from the man on the street (believe it or not, quantum mechanics isn’t science magic, for one thing). I’ll take the show on its own merit.

13 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

I don't recall if it was explicitly stated that Marina's father knew she was pregnant when she was sent to them.

It was not. That’s just fanon to prop a theory.

Edited December 27, 2020 by ursula

[Door County Cherry]

Facts are things that are said and done on the show.  Interpretation about those things is just that--interpretation and opinion.  

So let's move on from the discussion of the "one true interpretation" of things said/done on the show.  

[RachelKM]

2 minutes ago, ursula said:

In the show, we saw a man be forced to take responsibility for a maid’s baby just based on rumours.

Responsibility, yes.  Marriage no. It was expected that you took responsibility for your bastards, at least seeing them able to live indoors and eat.  It was not expected that you do more.  The lord was shamed for abandoning his bastard, not for siring one. 

And I got the impression showing life on the street was more intended to frighten Marina.  And technically, her father could choose to throw her out.  At any rate, she was ruined for any sort of future marriage if George didn't choose to return and it was uncertain that George would provide her with enough even if he "took responsibility."

We've derailed this thread enough.  You have your interpretation and I have mine.  Neither of us is convincing the other.

[bijoux]

10 minutes ago, ursula said:

I just thought there were leering since Marina was supposed to be so hot. Which... yikes. When she didn’t see her period, my mind went to some uncomfortable places for a while. 

The leering alone I interpreted as a reaction to Marina's attractiveness. However, paired with the later lack of surprise I read it as part of her attraction being her quote unquote experience.

[Nidratime]

I'll have to go back and rewatch the explanation as to why Marina was sent to the Featheringtons and whether there was an insinuation that Mr. Featherington (and therefore Marina's father) knew of Marina's situation. If Marina's parents had any kind of money, I'm wondering why they just didn't send her to the continent with a chaperone and let her have the baby there, give it up for adoption, and return as if she was just abroad traveling or attending school.

[Door County Cherry]

2 minutes ago, bijoux said:

The leering alone I interpreted as a reaction to Marina's attractiveness. However, paired with the later lack of surprise I read it as part of her attraction being her quote unquote experience.

Yeah. I thought that was a nice little note from Ben Miller.  He did kind of look her up and down and, at first, I thought it was because of her attractiveness but after we found out she was pregnant, I took it as a knowing look. 

[chaifan]

Just watched Ep. 1, and I haven't read the books, but I have a question for the book readers...  how old is Eloise in the books?  I was shocked by her low voice, coupled with a look that seemed 15, at best.  So I looked at a few articles and came across different info.  One said she's a "spinster at 28", and another said she was "16 going on 17".  I'm wondering if she was the eldest in the books, and that was changed for the series.  Anyone here know for sure?

[BlackberryJam]

Just now, Nidratime said:

I'll have to go back and rewatch the explanation as to why Marina was sent to the Featheringtons and whether there was an insinuation that Mr. Featherington (and therefore Marina's father) knew of Marina's situation. If Marina's parents had any kind of money, I'm wondering why they just didn't send her to the continent with a chaperone and let her have the baby there, give it up for adoption, and return as if she was just abroad traveling or attending school.

Well, choosing the kind option for a daughter who was sullied would imply that her family cared a lot about her. I don’t think they did. With Lord Featherington in debt, it was easier and cheaper to shove her off and make her someone else’s problem. 

 

2 minutes ago, Door County Cherry said:

Yeah. I thought that was a nice little note from Ben Miller.  He did kind of look her up and down and, at first, I thought it was because of her attractiveness but after we found out she was pregnant, I took it as a knowing look. 

I’d have to rewatch, but I remember thinking that every man with gray, fuzzy sideburns was a total creeper. 

 

1 minute ago, chaifan said:

Just watched Ep. 1, and I haven't read the books, but I have a question for the book readers...  how old is Eloise in the books?  I was shocked by her low voice, coupled with a look that seemed 15, at best.  So I looked at a few articles and came across different info.  One said she's a "spinster at 28", and another said she was "16 going on 17".  I'm wondering if she was the eldest in the books, and that was changed for the series.  Anyone here know for sure?

Eloise is probably around 16 going on 17 at the time of Daphne’s marriage. By the time we get to the book focused on Eloise, she is a 28 year old spinster, as is Penelope.

[Nidratime]

I don't recall how old everyone is initially. The Duke and I is the first book in the series and Eloise is younger than Daphne, so she's probably 16 or 17. There are three other books before we eventually get to Eloise's story. In the fourth book, Eloise is indeed a "spinster of 27 or 28".

Edited December 27, 2020 by Nidratime

[Door County Cherry]

Just now, chaifan said:

Just watched Ep. 1, and I haven't read the books, but I have a question for the book readers...  how old is Eloise in the books?  I was shocked by her low voice, coupled with a look that seemed 15, at best.  So I looked at a few articles and came across different info.  One said she's a "spinster at 28", and another said she was "16 going on 17".  I'm wondering if she was the eldest in the books, and that was changed for the series.  Anyone here know for sure?

I haven't read her book but the books don't happen concurrently.  Anthony's book, for instance, takes place a year later.  I think she's 28 in her book but younger than Daphne here even though the actress is on the older side. 

[chaifan]

Thanks for the quick (really damn quick!) explanations, everyone!  That makes sense.  But still, that voice just doesn't match a 16-17 year old girl.  I'm surprised the actress didn't pitch it up just a bit for the character. 

[RachelKM]

1 minute ago, chaifan said:

Just watched Ep. 1, and I haven't read the books, but I have a question for the book readers...  how old is Eloise in the books?  I was shocked by her low voice, coupled with a look that seemed 15, at best.  So I looked at a few articles and came across different info.  One said she's a "spinster at 28", and another said she was "16 going on 17".  I'm wondering if she was the eldest in the books, and that was changed for the series.  Anyone here know for sure?

If I remember correctly, 16-17 was correct for Eloise as of the Duke and I.  She was younger than Daphne (the Bridgertons are named alphabetically in birth order: Anthony, Benedict, Colin, Daphne, Eloise, Francesca, Gregory, and Hyacinth).   Daphne would have made her come out at 17 or 18 and Eloise was around 2+ years younger. It was Daphne's 2nd or 3rd season in the book.  Making Eloise about 17 or on the cusp thereof.  In the show, it was Daphne's first season, so she couldn't be more than 17 unless she and Daphne were VERY close in age or Daphne had a late come out.

The reference to her being 28 was likely related to her story in her book, To Sir Philip with Love. That book takes place about a decade later.

[ursula]

10 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

Responsibility, yes.  Marriage no

Yes and my point is that George's family were never even confronted with her situation. Compare to Daphne and the Duke in a similar situation. Her family weren't just unable to make him take responsible, they were unable to even ask for "satisfaction". There's a clear class/agency difference there.

 

15 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

Neither of us is convincing the other.

Agreed.

[ursula]

4 minutes ago, chaifan said:

But still, that voice just doesn't match a 16-17 year old girl.  I'm surprised the actress didn't pitch it up just a bit for the character. 

The voice definitely didn't help. Eloise really came across as older than her years and jaded in ways Daphne wasn't. Based on their interactions I assumed they were close in age (Irish twins?). On the surface, their relationship reminded me of Elizabeth Bennett/Jane Bennett but as the show went on, it sometimes felt that Eloise didn't even like her sister. Or at least didn't like what her sister stood for, if that makes sense? Elizabeth had a steady affection for Jane (that even drove her plot in the book) but Eloise seemed almost contemptuous.

[bijoux]

7 minutes ago, Nidratime said:

I don't recall how old everyone is initially. The Duke and I is the first book in the series and Eloise is younger than Daphne, so she's probably 16 or 17. There are three other books before we eventually get to Eloise's story. In the fourth book, Eloise is indeed a "spinster of 27 or 28".

According to the information from books two (Anthony) and four (Colin) which is fresh in my mind, the Bridgerton kids came sort of in pairs, with a one or two years of an age difference between the closest kids. This depends on the book, since I think Quinn doesn't (or didn't at that point, maybe she's better at it now) keep a tight track of these things. So it Anthony, then Benedict two years after him. Then four or five years after Benedict came Colin and one or two years after Colin came Daphne. Maybe two or three years after Daphne we get Eloise and, according to one source, exactly a year to the day after Eloise Francesca is born. The youngest, Gregory and Hyacinth, are 16 and 18 years younger than Anthony. I think the only age difference that probably held true throughout the series is the one between Anthony and Hyacinth.

So, by this maths, during the 1813 season, Anthony would have been 28 and Hyacinth 10 with everyone else falling accordingly in between.

[ursula]

12 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

Well, choosing the kind option for a daughter who was sullied would imply that her family cared a lot about her. I don’t think they did. With Lord Featherington in debt, it was easier and cheaper to shove her off and make her someone else’s problem. 

If she was in the continent she'd still be someone else's problem but with the added advantage of being a better kept secret. It's logically easier to contain the pregnancy even home in the country than under the scrutiny of the entire London society. Also it's not like it would be less embarassing for her family where her pregnancy is discovered. 

There's literally no logical reason why her family would knowingly send her away pregnant to "solve" their problem. 

[RachelKM]

The ages are a little confusing.  In the book, Daphne and Eloise were more than 2 years apart maybe more (if it was Daphne's 3rd season, she would be at least 20).  On the show, Daphne was on her 1st season and Eloise was on the verge of making a possible come out herself.  On the other hand, the conversation about Hyacynth's birth and how much it scared Eloise while Daphne watched over and comforted her made them seem more like the would have been at least 3 years older, as in Eloise 6 or 7 and Daphne 10 or 11 - at least old enough to take a protective role.

[RachelKM]

1 minute ago, ursula said:

If she was in the continent she'd still be someone else's problem but with the added advantage of being a better kept secret. It's logically easier to contain the pregnancy even home in the country than under the scrutiny of the entire London society. Also it's not like it would be less embarassing for her family where her pregnancy is discovered. 

It would be a reasonably good solution in many cases. I'm not sure sending a daughter to the Continent was a realistic option for a cover story during the Napoleonic wars.

[ursula]

1 minute ago, RachelKM said:

On the other hand, the conversation about Hyacynth's birth and how much it scared Eloise while Daphne watched over and comforted her made them seem more like the would have been at least 3 years older, as in Eloise 6 or 7 and Daphne 10 or 11 - at least old enough to take a protective role.

Not necessarily. If she’s the older sister, she’d be the older sister protecting her younger whether it was by a year or by ten. Especially considering Daphne seems to instinctively have a nurturing nature. 
 

Also their mom repeatedly refers to Eloise having her season “next year”. Between this and their dynamic, it just makes more sense that the girls are just a year apart.

Just now, RachelKM said:

It would be a reasonably good solution in many cases. I'm not sure sending a daughter to the Continent was a realistic option for a cover story during the Napoleonic wars.

To be clear that line of speculation was based on the assumption her family knew and were considering options for Marina, an assumption that I don’t believe makes any sense based on what we’re shown in canon.